< 1622592040 363951 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-026.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1622592105 966182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83820 5* 03ResU 5* (+1335) 10Created page with "'''AEWNN''' (or '''An esolang with no name''') is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Variables== There are two types of variables: letter variables and VariablesWi..." < 1622592154 386725 :interrup-!~interrupt@girl.mrtheplague.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1622592249 862014 :interruptinuse!~interrupt@girl.mrtheplague.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1622592250 281214 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1622592250 424542 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1622592250 829949 :clog_!~nef@bespin.org NICK :clog > 1622592377 832307 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Malbolge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83821&oldid=41030 5* 03Monochromeninja 5* (+1824) 10/* Python interpreter */ new section < 1622592391 574452 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-026.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1622592453 528907 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1622592460 532132 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso JOIN :#esoteric > 1622592865 425052 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Emoji-gramming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83822&oldid=57083 5* 03Monochromeninja 5* (+445) 10/* Sign checking */ new section > 1622593113 705974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83823&oldid=83820 5* 03ResU 5* (+6) 10 > 1622593433 434926 PRIVMSG #esoteric : A reason needing writing better web browser software is that existing software is like http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/user-friendly.html (It is one thing, not all of them, of course) < 1622593450 941254 :V!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1622593509 866013 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Macintrash lol < 1622593588 86870 :V!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN :#esoteric > 1622593938 529975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ResU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83824 5* 03ResU 5* (+68) 10Created page with "My esolangs: [[AEWNN]] (planned to make more esolangs in the future)" > 1622594240 237098 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:ResU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83825&oldid=83824 5* 03ResU 5* (+12) 10 > 1622594288 301243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? > 1622594291 908732 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what? > 1622595109 934140 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I agree, those should be unordered-list bullet points instead. < 1622596134 674788 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1622597332 845737 PRIVMSG #esoteric : some trivial things you want to make for years but are lazy for no reason > 1622597661 278624 PRIVMSG #esoteric : $ ruby upload.rb empty_file > 1622597661 404225 PRIVMSG #esoteric : uploading as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e > 1622597661 404342 PRIVMSG #esoteric : $ ruby upload.rb empty_file > 1622597661 404422 PRIVMSG #esoteric : file exists as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e > 1622597704 759582 PRIVMSG #esoteric : finally I made a bucket to store arbitrary files under their md5 > 1622597731 404081 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sure it loses the content-type but why would you download something without knowing what it is?.. > 1622598002 754119 PRIVMSG #esoteric : why would you use md5 for anything new in the year 2021? > 1622598068 24115 PRIVMSG #esoteric : why not? > 1622598100 656351 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because it's extremely broken as far as cryptographic properties go, and if you don't need those properties there are better (mainly, faster) hash functions you can use > 1622598126 921259 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's a hash sum of a file > 1622598134 93283 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's not a password > 1622598160 264453 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's easy to generate pairs of files with the same md5 sum > 1622598161 452138 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it's a public bucket > 1622598174 929052 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this might be only a nuisance in your use case and not a security concern, but it's still easy to avoid > 1622598181 584814 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's a public file storage -- what is the scenario of generating pairs of files? > 1622598218 760890 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there is just no use case for which md5 is the best choice > 1622598232 811641 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this one > 1622598233 123050 PRIVMSG #esoteric : except legacy systems > 1622598237 637657 PRIVMSG #esoteric : no > 1622598249 616530 PRIVMSG #esoteric : use sha256 and you won't need to worry about collisions (at least for the time being) > 1622598264 947958 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this is paranoidal > 1622598278 726376 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how many files you should upload to get a collision? > 1622598286 175789 PRIVMSG #esoteric : only two if it's deliberate > 1622598295 691769 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this is paranoidal > 1622598296 818530 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think a generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5" and they will never upgrade to something not broken > 1622598300 5824 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh well > 1622598317 362059 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's no reason to use the broken thing when non-broken things exist that are better in every way > 1622598319 785778 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I agree that you shouldn't use MD5 hashes to identify files; there are better hashes such as SHA-3 > 1622598325 920140 PRIVMSG #esoteric : just having md5 code in your codebase is a risk > 1622598335 408367 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oh we aren't using these for cryptographic purposes, it's fine" > 1622598337 663306 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...years later... > 1622598349 54519 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what's the reason to select custom hash function for a bucket that I will upload a thousand of files in my whole life to? > 1622598353 601553 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "custom"? > 1622598359 440911 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in what way is SHA256 more "custom" than MD5 > 1622598371 650986 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they are both standards available in every modern hash function library > 1622598381 322982 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in what way md5 is more custom than sha256? > 1622598385 325834 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you just got it in your brain that MD5 is "the" hash function > 1622598388 265139 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and that's wrong > 1622598393 715950 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and reveals you to be severely behind the times > 1622598399 982151 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you are angry on your own fantasies > 1622598400 486783 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Fossil uses MD5, but not to identify files. Rather, each deck ends with a Z card which has the MD5 hash of all preceding cards, and then the resulting deck is identified by the SHA-1 or SHA3-256 hash of the entire deck including the Z card. > 1622598414 320807 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fantasies that someone is stupid enough to not know about hash functions > 1622598429 486638 PRIVMSG #esoteric : angry without understanding the use case > 1622598438 348512 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i've made my case and you choose not to understand it > 1622598439 415175 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's fine > 1622598442 538236 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i'm going to eat pizza now so ttyl > 1622598462 818158 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you are just saying random trivia that is not applicable > 1622598498 483891 PRIVMSG #esoteric : wasting attention on inexisting problem > 1622598538 159410 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Some protocols require MD5, such as the HTTP auth > 1622598680 959463 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I must be using the HTTP auth because I'm from a "generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5"" > 1622598701 292490 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and probably my empty bucket will be used for a Mars mission > 1622598726 352769 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Even if you are, that doesn't mean that MD5 should also be used for other purposes too > 1622598731 709042 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I agree with the "there's no valid use case for MD5 except where it's required for interoperability" case. Libraries will eventually stop offering it as a choice; that's a good enough reason to not to pick it even when the choice would be otherwise arbitrary. > 1622598773 990355 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but where did I say that I should use md5 everywhere? it's just a way I index files in my bucket that I don't even immediately use > 1622598873 560121 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but why'd you choose it > 1622598878 79463 PRIVMSG #esoteric : when it's known to be broken > 1622598884 532609 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and you could choose something not known to be broken, with zero downside? > 1622598894 83025 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you won't be even able to make me a problem because you don't have an Upload access to the bucket > 1622598913 250464 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's broken only in your fantasies > 1622598931 411244 PRIVMSG #esoteric : in fact I'll never have an issue with this bucket and script > 1622598959 802704 PRIVMSG #esoteric : MD5 hashes are also shorter than SHA-1 hashes or SHA3-256 hashes > 1622598966 65033 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that may be, but there is still no reason to choose the broken thing > 1622598988 910093 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there is no more sense in chosing another hash function for my bucket than in using Pi as 3.14 and a million of digits after . > 1622599035 54017 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38 and it might be a reason to use it because it's an utl to a file -- it's good when it's short > 1622599042 223264 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *url > 1622599052 875386 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Typeform14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83826 5* 03S1(210) 5* (+273) 10creating page with language idea > 1622599066 12002 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes, but you could shorten it by using base64 instead of hex, or something like that > 1622599149 285952 PRIVMSG #esoteric : using md5 is shoddy engineering that reveals you don't really care about doing things right, even if it doesn't cause any immediate practical issue in this particular application > 1622599154 703718 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's all > 1622599157 352300 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you disagree that's fine > 1622599164 503237 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's no reason for me to keep stating this > 1622599241 441917 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i mean if being short is all that matters why not crc32? > 1622599254 571477 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i didn't mean to shit on your accomplishment but i guess we both got confrontational about it > 1622599269 467109 PRIVMSG #esoteric : CRC-32 is probably way too short for that, collisions are too likely even if accidentally > 1622599270 483782 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, 32 bits is short enough to worry about even accidental collisions > 1622599275 729693 PRIVMSG #esoteric : good point > 1622599279 203473 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sorry, context matters > 1622599284 614662 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38 the "/" char would create a folders in bucket tree for no reason; also I like how hex looks > 1622599349 695815 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm surprised base62 is used so little. I guess it's because you can usually find at least two more safe characters, like the URL-safe variant's _- pair. > 1622599350 153314 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nakilon: You can use a variant of base64 with different characters in use > 1622599412 320305 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38 adding some custom library dependency to my script... > 1622599460 557989 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's a lot more annoying to implement when the base is not a power of 2 > 1622599462 733103 PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe my stdlib even has base64, still it's overcomplicating things for no real purpose > 1622599470 107468 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean base62 < 1622599500 273014 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 JOIN :#esoteric > 1622599600 947008 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and yes, right before starting making the script I googled the length of crc32 and md5 > 1622599641 193960 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and make a choice between them > 1622599844 527052 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm, maybe HackEso's `paste should have used a hash function for the file name for deduplication purposes... but then it'd have to rename the file after the fact, because it needs to (really *only*) work for non-seekable inputs. > 1622599851 717147 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I guess it's probably not worth it. There are a total of four pastes that have been pasted twice, and a single paste (unsurprisingly, the empty file) that has been pasted 7 times. > 1622599866 756731 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think people have been cleaning up that directory every now and then though. > 1622600077 653615 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Can any newer hashing algorithms which have a secondary hash starting at a different offset and then add that hash at the end of the data when computing the primary hash? (e.g. similar to having H(X||H("0"||X)) although you can do other things such as having different parameters for the secondary hash, or adding the length differently, etc) > 1622600079 291103 PRIVMSG #esoteric : this reminds me how people love to play in an echo chamber about "regexes can't parse HTML/XML" > 1622600120 754588 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because it's easier and funnier to be in an echo chamber than learn that some regex engines support recursion and parse HTML/XLS with no issues > 1622600201 819135 PRIVMSG #esoteric : living in imaginary world where they've learned some "rules" of how things work and can't be assed to learn more > 1622600960 86266 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'd argue said regexes are not regexes > 1622600967 919744 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because regex refers to... regular expressions > 1622600981 308056 PRIVMSG #esoteric : instead they're regex-flavored programming languages because pain :) > 1622601859 329974 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah > 1622601872 98597 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it just depends on how you define the word "regex" > 1622601957 669746 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's also the question of whether you *should* try to parse HTML/XML with such grotesquely-extended regex engines even though you *can* > 1622601969 436703 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but this is #esolangs so I guess the answer to that one is affirmative :) > 1622602002 632556 PRIVMSG #esoteric : regardless, attempting to do anything tree-shaped with a regex is usually a sign that you're doing it wrong and should consider a different approach < 1622602011 377901 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@fsf/member/Noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in > 1622602036 72180 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think I've ever come across a purported XML-munching regular expression that'd deal with , even though it's certainly possible. < 1622602090 670992 :Noisytoot!noisytoot@fsf/member/Noisytoot JOIN :#esoteric < 1622602114 415932 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.0 < 1622602459 520471 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx JOIN :#esoteric > 1622602926 824508 PRIVMSG #esoteric : computational linguists are so pedantic > 1622603118 547413 PRIVMSG #esoteric : thinking they can proscribe what regular expressions are - they should be studying how real groups of people _use_ regexes and simple describe > 1622603309 497012 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (that's (supposed) to be a joke, just in case anyone strongly disagrees, or worse, agrees) > 1622603315 822776 PRIVMSG #esoteric : lol > 1622603318 836466 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wasn't totally sure ;) > 1622603332 903162 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think descriptive computer languages theory is a good idea though! > 1622603366 496561 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's definitely something people do > 1622603378 211056 PRIVMSG #esoteric : take popular ad-hoc features and try to formalize them > 1622603407 245748 PRIVMSG #esoteric : *** "proscribe" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" > 1622603409 271832 PRIVMSG #esoteric : proscribe > 1622603411 253400 PRIVMSG #esoteric : v 1: command against; "I forbid you to call me late at night"; > 1622603413 259427 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Mother vetoed the trip to the chocolate store"; "Dad nixed > 1622603415 256513 PRIVMSG #esoteric : our plans" [syn: {forbid}, {prohibit}, {interdict}, > 1622603417 347865 PRIVMSG #esoteric : {proscribe}, {veto}, {disallow}, {nix}] [ant: {allow}, > 1622603419 259556 PRIVMSG #esoteric : {countenance}, {let}, {permit}] > 1622603494 681189 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ugh, I used the wrong word: prescribe I meant. > 1622603583 357462 PRIVMSG #esoteric : can lambdabot adjust line width? > 1622603622 386986 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It feels like there could be a joke in there. I wish I'd done it deliberately. You can't proscribe what word I use to mean x ... or something > 1622603625 680024 PRIVMSG #esoteric : needs some regexes > 1622604156 349314 PRIVMSG #esoteric : imagine that at the time you were learning programming people naming 10 random languages were not naming those that they would name today http://www.softpanorama.org/Bulletin/Humor/how_programmers_hunt_elephants.shtml > 1622604159 122599 PRIVMSG #esoteric : except C > 1622604188 374126 PRIVMSG #esoteric : even 12 > 1622604257 894027 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm half of them sound like dbms though > 1622604453 484366 PRIVMSG #esoteric : two other lists can be found on this page http://www.softpanorama.org/Lang/programming_languages_humor.shtml > 1622604698 548670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Goglesq 5* 10New user account > 1622605051 751418 PRIVMSG #esoteric : half of text on this page is written before my birth I guess > 1622605539 256954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83827&oldid=83815 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+247) 10 > 1622605796 27129 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83828&oldid=83765 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+14) 10 < 1622605907 268814 :mla!~mla@162.253.176.229 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1622606469 464008 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? discriptive linguistics < 1622606757 36618 :harha_!~harha@ns356919.ip-91-121-144.eu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1622606766 249911 :harha_!~harha@ns356919.ip-91-121-144.eu JOIN :#esoteric > 1622607125 149517 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83829 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+1955) 10Created page with "NScript is a basic esoteric language designed to be at least somewhat unique. NScript has a couple nicknames by the creator: NS, NoahScript NS has plenty of flexibility and ha..." > 1622608504 610557 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83830&oldid=83829 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+2115) 10 > 1622608627 215283 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83831&oldid=83830 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+0) 10 > 1622613062 115843 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is it German? can anyone read it? https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date&qvq=q:pub_title%3D%22Atlas%20der%20Evangelisch%20-%20Lutherischen%20Gemeinen%20in%20Russland.%20St.%20Petersburg.%20Buchdruckere > 1622613062 245282 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i%20der%20Kaiserlichen%20Akademie%20der%20Wissenschaften.%201855.%22;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=12&trs=13 > 1622613110 227890 PRIVMSG #esoteric : shorter link: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu > 1622613375 999054 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought I recognised 'soul' in Seelenzabl -- which seems to be "soul count" > 1622613382 425416 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a religious census? > 1622613519 513471 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's stats appendix pages to maps, it's the last page of stats and others are pages per guberniya > 1622613555 63966 PRIVMSG #esoteric : on this page I wonder what the biggest titles say > 1622613575 513188 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "souls per priest" -- interesting > 1622613624 833803 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh, 'zahl', as in zahlen ℤ > 1622613977 466277 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Евангелическо-лютеранская церковь в России, Украине, в Казахстане и Средней Азии is a thing it seems > 1622614094 403227 PRIVMSG #esoteric : reminds me -- does Google home exist in Russia? I was yelling at my Google home in frustration trying to listen to specific Russian soundtrack music that it played to me first and I wanted to hear again > 1622614147 684188 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there should be a town Melitopol somewhere on the right page here, I can't find it: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301173~90071677:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu > 1622614178 752508 PRIVMSG #esoteric : after ages of tweaking settings I got it to correctly recognise me saying 'поход' and it was spelled correctly on screen, then it's spin a bit and convert it to some silly English word and play me random stuff based on that > 1622614179 126301 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the right side is Tavricheskaya Gubernya that is this region https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4 > 1622614191 693535 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the yellow one) > 1622614270 498796 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx not sure, but Russian analogue is from Yandex, called Yandex Alisa or something -- it's a name of the voice driven assistant > 1622614297 280410 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx https://yandex.ru/alice/smart-home > 1622614362 402991 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e not sure what you mean, that's 1500km away > 1622614406 413879 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but if you mean the administrative division then the analogue would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_Governorate > 1622614463 587260 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so yeah, this is the proper link to the right page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurida_Governorate -- you see there is "Melitopolsky Uyezd (Melitopol – Мелитополь)" in wikipedia article > 1622614670 550768 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's here in the middle https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301169~90071673:Die-Kolonien-in-den-Gouvernements-J > 1622614904 143346 PRIVMSG #esoteric : interesting, I have one of those JBL speakers that work with the Yandex assisant. The vague non-committal Google messages make some sense now if the Russian market is already covered. It's like they'd started trying to support it years ago but not bothered getting over the line, unlike other languages(/markets) > 1622614980 780780 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e that's weird, it's the center of Melitopolsky Uyezd > 1622615008 16433 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah those green and red regions don't make sense to me > 1622615111 680502 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh you mean the map author only provided stats for regions that were relevant to him? > 1622615129 292937 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought those are just population charts and have to include all the biggest towns > 1622615177 877227 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ok, thanks > 1622615305 726996 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx from some points of view it's harder for Google to compete in Russia because Yandex was the first Web Search engine, a year before Google, and all the technologies then were built in parallel but Google has no clue in Russian language so the indexing, ranking and stuff is hard for them > 1622615339 360472 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or "the first morphological search", I don't remember the details > 1622615367 353942 PRIVMSG #esoteric : companies are technologically nearly equal, Google is just bigger > 1622615394 958102 PRIVMSG #esoteric : proportionally to US economical size > 1622615406 712362 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(virtual_assistant) has interesting comments about Russian speech recognition complexity too > 1622615455 96965 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e yeah but I would sudgest those numbers to be in thousands; then 8mln would be too much for that year, yeah > 1622615483 486679 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx Alisa is one of the services that is a lot ahead of Google's Assistant > 1622615547 721798 PRIVMSG #esoteric : google Assistant can set a timer and tell a weather, Alisa at that time was doing relevant jokes, sarcasm, had a mood, was learning your conversation habits, etc. > 1622615811 170623 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh now it makes sense, int-e here is the first page of the book: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301163~90071667:Title-and-Index-Page--Atlas-der-Eva > 1622615851 518125 PRIVMSG #esoteric : interesting, the book in German was published in Peterburg < 1622616493 764815 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5672d3-28.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1622616539 49985 PRIVMSG #esoteric : salpynx basically because Yandex is much smaller it's easier to get things done; i.e. to make a prototype of such thing like Alisa it takes a team of guy with ideas, a mobile app dev, NLP guy, audio recognition guy -- they are all working within the same building and can gather for a meeting or a dinner in 5-10 minutes < 1622616740 755539 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5672d3-28.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric > 1622617727 508726 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83832&oldid=40598 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+485) 10 > 1622617739 474043 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Polyglot14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83833&oldid=83832 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) 5* (+1) 10 < 1622618729 735898 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1622620305 57955 PRIVMSG #esoteric : " i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here" => yes, that helps, people here often give good recommendations > 1622620325 766597 PRIVMSG #esoteric : " I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D" => by people other than you? > 1622620773 330704 PRIVMSG #esoteric : why dont we get about/esolangs cloaks > 1622620788 22408 PRIVMSG #esoteric : by registering as a community > 1622620979 494016 PRIVMSG #esoteric : river: we're in the queue > 1622621041 527291 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ok > 1622621192 417825 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: one of the last steps to make the move to libera/#esolangs official will be to edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal to say "official home" again. I didn't dare to do that, but if you wish, you can now. > 1622621245 674510 PRIVMSG #esoteric : putting it in the official password of the month was a good move too > 1622621290 852468 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmmm > 1622621294 674238 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah > 1622621304 224367 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was considering "dvd demagnetizer" as the password, but this is better > 1622621392 661195 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the "normal" page of the map like this https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~285423~90057692# has the link "View in Georeferencerer" but then I don't see a way to get from the georeferencerer back to normal page, that is vital because it has the Export button... I opened like 100 maps via Georeferencerer map navigation and see > 1622621392 839931 PRIVMSG #esoteric : no way to now export what I need... > 1622621611 311737 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `password > 1622621612 690525 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ffklwnqmpoyfcqh > 1622621633 196978 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 188) vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too > 1622621640 96056 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat. > 1622624661 561030 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (found it, there is a hyperlink "Website") > 1622625089 131542 PRIVMSG #esoteric : iirc, i learned about df here > 1622625118 432897 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Dwarf Fortress or the unix command > 1622625132 678023 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /bin \ none 997M 0 997M 0% /dev \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib \ tmpfs 124M 0 124M 0% /tmp \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /usr \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /sbin \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib64 \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hackenv \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hac > 1622625158 885380 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm struggling to find a direct treatment of the orientability of a disk -- seems like it should be pretty straightforward, but the fact I can't find any clear statements about it has me confused. Everyone talks endlessly about Mobius strips and more complex objeccts > 1622625181 622129 PRIVMSG #esoteric : dwarf fortress > 1622625188 965263 PRIVMSG #esoteric : best game i ever played > 1622625194 263016 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Mmmmm > 1622625222 798783 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Speaking of which: > 1622625224 28764 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- The #esolangs namespace is registered to the esolangs project > 1622625227 287534 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- Public contacts: int-e, fizzie > 1622625235 747429 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's just gone through. > 1622625271 968732 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (I don't know how to *actually* manage cloaks, though, even though we now have that namespace.) > 1622625341 871000 PRIVMSG #esoteric : cool! > 1622625438 215965 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think you can just ask a friendly local staffer > 1622625467 212707 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would like an esolangs cloak < 1622625619 191715 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1622625826 61322 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I know some projects have some kind of a policy about cloaks; I don't know what ours should be. Maybe discuss on the wiki? I'll post an update on the talk page in a minute that it's now registered. > 1622625846 36938 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks "To avoid overwhelming libera.chat staff, we are only issuing cloaks in batches." Yeah, sounds like it's probably just an ask-a-staffer thing; and also makes sense to collect them into a batch rather than bother the staff one-by-one. > 1622625860 164356 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not that I think our community is quite as populous, but still. > 1622625928 572312 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't know about myself, but I think my bots could do with one. Or at least fungot. If it's not "about/esolangs/...", I don't know what is. > 1622625928 773417 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win! > 1622625985 928280 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... well? yes no > 1622626032 119695 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh in order to allow for as long message lines as possible? > 1622626045 508902 PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh > 1622626547 867299 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, that's approximately what I'm writing up in the next window over to that initial comment. :) > 1622626705 53239 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, I did in fact have a quick chat with him about this channel; he said he'll likely be continuing the thing of mostly reading via logs and then dropping by if there's anything particularly interesting. > 1622627256 263523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83834&oldid=83499 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+2025) 10/* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ new section > 1622627743 139597 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83835&oldid=83619 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+115) 10/* IRC */ Insert the word "official". < 1622628910 177623 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upqitgagdepuqhgk JOIN :#esoteric < 1622628940 847764 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ytmxhgxsucpawtaj QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1622628941 394 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upqitgagdepuqhgk NICK :ProofTechnique < 1622629190 859333 :V!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1622629239 957216 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: be careful, I think the cloak would be longer than the bots' current hostname. if you want to request a cloak for them, at least consider that. < 1622629266 215927 :V!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN :#esoteric > 1622629283 852243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah, int-e pointed that out too, I see it in the losg > 1622629331 310800 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, it was brought up. I still think it's worth it (in terms of the length limit not being *usually* a problem), but it's a scow that you have to make such a tradeoff. > 1622629433 406318 PRIVMSG #esoteric : " We shoiuld get ais523 over here." => he was here in the sense that he joined the channel on libera at least once; otherwise he generally logreads and joins only when needed > 1622629459 263723 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it should not be a problem for bot -- he doesn't see own messages > 1622629511 685666 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: if you want an actually shorter hostname, you may be able to get one, because unaffiliated cloaks are now shorter\ > 1622629524 956500 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they start with user/ instead of unaffiliated/ > 1622629532 689372 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wonder if there is a bot that makes daily RSS from IRC logs > 1622629549 203663 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] > 1622629566 126089 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, there's that. But these specific bots *are* so "about/esolangs", it'd be nice to keep it in. > 1622629598 627106 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "about/esolangs/bot/botname" is 19+length("botname") characters; anything I run off the wiki server would otherwise be "techne.zem.fi" (unless I want to play with the reverse DNS) which is only 13. So that's a net loss of 13, for the obvious 7-character bot names. > 1622629624 368613 PRIVMSG #esoteric : do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? > 1622629642 759939 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a backup set of logs might be nice > 1622629664 86946 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or if kspalaiologos wants to restart their logs, that could work too > 1622629702 287817 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: they're about esolangs, but I don't see why the irc hostmust has to say that, rather than saying that elsewhere > 1622629705 208424 PRIVMSG #esoteric : actually website hosted logs can easily have RSS format > 1622629743 968078 PRIVMSG #esoteric : for example, having 10 last days items (excluding current day that isn't yet ready) > 1622629749 786003 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean I can see some use of the hostmask for network services and IRCops for security reasons so that anyone can quickly verify that a message is from a real IRCop or service > 1622629817 871871 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but for just HackEso or esolangs or fungоt that's less important > 1622629834 646998 PRIVMSG #esoteric : At least fungot's current host"name" of "2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a" (22 characters) is only moderately shorter than "about/esolangs/bot/fungot" (25). I haven't asked if my ISP would be interested in delegating the relevant ip6.arpa zone, but given that they're your typical end-user/consumer/residential ISP, I feel like probably not. I've only had two ISPs so far who've been willing to do that. > 1622629834 750278 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving! > 1622629895 280027 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh, fungоt doesn't run on the same server as esolangs and HackEso or at least a neighboring one? > 1622629915 300504 PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, I run it at home. Less mission-critical, y'see. > 1622629919 693808 PRIVMSG #esoteric : makes sense > 1622629944 970598 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't currently have an always-on machine, but perhaps I should still make logs on my often-on home machine > 1622629984 166881 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not willing to run any evalbot, I decided that's a security problem that I'm not willing to tackle in the near future, but just making an IRC connection with logs can work > 1622630016 707054 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it may still be useful even if it's off like one day every two weeks and possibly shorter interruptions from irc server disconnects or network outages > 1622630048 580270 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also I don't want to abuse the donated resources esolangs.org has, our hosting provider's really sponsoring the wiki rather than "everything tangentially related to the wiki". > 1622630049 996770 PRIVMSG #esoteric : only I don't have a fixed IP address, so I'd have to set up something to point there if I want to make the logs public > 1622630065 399998 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: oh! I didn't know it was donated > 1622630075 398663 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, nobody pays for it. > 1622630098 884156 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean, I imagine a single tiny VPS is really a rounding error for a proper cloud provider, but still. > 1622630182 947643 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sure, I just didn't know it was donated > 1622630223 838596 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there like a banner thanking them on the esowiki main page or something? > 1622630226 232519 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't see one > 1622630232 196003 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's at the bottom. > 1622630240 463213 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The tiny little ":bytemark" one. > 1622630251 454487 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah I see > 1622630268 805709 PRIVMSG #esoteric : And also a brief mention at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About actually. > 1622630274 551863 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it also has the new Mediawiki icon rather than the old sunflower > 1622630292 756173 PRIVMSG #esoteric : my "evalbot" costs 0$, it's within free GCP tier > 1622630316 150294 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh nice, the Bytemark banner leads to a 404 page > 1622630328 749636 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, looks like Bytemark removed those /r/... URLs, so our backlinks to their website are now 404s. > 1622630338 660851 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, I doubt we've been generating much traffic there either. > 1622630402 288419 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sure, it just, you know, makes an internet host provider unprofessional when they break their links > 1622630430 671817 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not 100% sure it ever worked. ;) > 1622630498 335507 PRIVMSG #esoteric : reminds me some IBM technology that our bank used... forgot how it was called > 1622630553 958625 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it was about superfast and reliable server mirroring > 1622630604 383940 PRIVMSG #esoteric : their webpage sais it's super reliable and the link "read more" just leads to a page with server error > 1622630623 577494 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Server unavailable IIRC > 1622630674 463883 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://web.archive.org/web/20180119185751/https://www.bytemark.co.uk/r/esolangs says it did work at some point > 1622630749 433106 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Mhm. With a proper GA ?utm_source=... param too. I'd be interested in seeing the stats of that campaign. :) > 1622630846 464760 PRIVMSG #esoteric : damn, can't find the link > 1622630945 610717 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the technology kind of really worked but servers were failing once in few months and it needed a day to relaunch/sync it after a crash and so it was really possible that two could fail at the same time > 1622630983 653913 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but we didn't buy the third server because they costed several mln $ > 1622631171 615054 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's funny how things there were at the same time ridiculously expensive and unreliable > 1622631204 504099 PRIVMSG #esoteric : especially considering that if bank stops operating for several hours it loses government license > 1622631470 358790 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh I guess I found it: "MIMIX -- Availability protects your business from downtime and data loss. Data, applications and critical system information are replicated in real ." ... https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/public/404-page-error?solution=11871 > 1622631509 489883 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/gsd/solutiondetails.do?solution=11871 -- you'll redirect > 1622631912 576919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:IRC cloaks14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83836 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+2290) 10Actually, let's just create this one as a placeholder, it's not like it costs money. > 1622632131 283510 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83837&oldid=83834 5* 03Fizzie 5* (-13) 10/* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ Fix link. > 1622633638 657031 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_g_surface says: "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the disc." That sounded interesting, but I'm so far from finding a proof or even a clear statement of how, that I'm beginning to doubt it's true. Anyone here know or can justify it? > 1622633686 247232 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't know this math > 1622633763 160598 PRIVMSG #esoteric : > Let M be a connected topological n-manifold. There are several possible definitions of what it means for M to be orientable. Some of these definitions require that M has extra structure, like being differentiable. Occasionally, n = 0 must be made into a special case. When more than one of these definitions applies to M, then M is orientable under one definition if and only if it is orientable under the others.[2][3] > 1622633765 15462 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:85: error: parse error on input ‘of’ > 1622634120 861603 PRIVMSG #esoteric : > Theorem 3.2. A closed and connected surface is non-orientable if and only if it contains a M¨obius strip. > 1622634122 665708 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:106: error: > 1622634122 754761 PRIVMSG #esoteric : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) > 1622634142 415947 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's a bit weird to think how a disk with boundry contains a mobius strip > 1622634169 773223 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i guess that if you travel "off" the disk you bounce back, flipped > 1622634211 359246 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think the disk is equivalent to the 2d projective plane? > 1622634214 114393 PRIVMSG #esoteric : right, that's what I have been thinking, this n=o disc feels like it must be a special case, because I can prettty much follow any higher n argument, which are easy enough to find. If a disc/disk is a special case, I would have thought someone would deal with explicitly and set out what definitions and conditions apply > 1622634242 717502 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/308804/homeomorphism-between-real-projective-plane-and-disc > 1622634275 984419 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and that's what I though must apply, a disk must be in some sense homeomorphic to a mobius strip and the projective plane minus a point, but I can't see that > 1622634276 342371 PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe it's easier to understand that RP^2 is non-orientable > 1622634293 901794 PRIVMSG #esoteric : minus a point? > 1622634304 374961 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm > 1622634312 303406 PRIVMSG #esoteric : X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points > 1622634314 142261 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sorry! with a hole! > 1622634345 167752 PRIVMSG #esoteric : mobius strip is homeomorphic to the projective plane with a hole > 1622634347 214293 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh > 1622634353 316583 PRIVMSG #esoteric : X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points *on the boundary of D* > 1622634363 808934 PRIVMSG #esoteric : interesting > 1622634370 706133 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so, this aligns with the theorem posted > 1622634375 314755 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "contains a mobius strip" > 1622634390 89949 PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://math.uchicago.edu/~may/REU2016/REUPapers/Zhang,Y.pdf 3.2 on pg 4 < 1622634406 212560 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1622634412 930832 PRIVMSG #esoteric : when these topologists are informally saying "a disk" I guess they mean something quite specific > 1622634429 875344 PRIVMSG #esoteric : where the antipodal points of the boundary are identified? > 1622634447 105539 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can see why that is non-orientable > 1622634450 763930 PRIVMSG #esoteric : intuitively > 1622634494 890388 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but that detail is not stated on wikipedia > 1622634754 394882 PRIVMSG #esoteric : thanks, that paper looks interesting -- the se question has me confused with the different commentators talking about whether D is a ball of sphere, and the qn looks like it was edited at some point, but that's par for se > 1622634768 80051 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah I think the original question was mistitled > 1622634770 539897 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so they fixed that > 1622634845 470189 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Thanks for seeing the antipodal points thing, I was stuck in an unproductive search spiral, that looks like a detail that will help make some sense of what they meant > 1622634969 254771 PRIVMSG #esoteric : A mobius strip is described in various places as the most simple non-orientable surface -- a standard disk sounds more simple than that, so it didn't make sense that it was non-orientable unless there was something else going on > 1622635555 290634 PRIVMSG #esoteric : From the Zhang paper: "RP² is in essence a disk with boundary sewed diametrically." > 1622635619 531165 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83838&oldid=83831 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+73) 10Categories > 1622636278 481567 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That se accepted answer does make sense now, and they are talking about a disk with a very specific boundary, which they are clear about, and that is homeomorphic to RP², and also non-orientable. > 1622636352 4572 PRIVMSG #esoteric : river: thanks! That was causing me undue mental anguish, all from taking wikipedia a bit too seriously. > 1622636528 915950 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ideally someone should fix this on wikipedia > 1622636680 385311 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was just trying to confirm what the correction should be "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the projective plane." seems like the correct verison > 1622636772 927806 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83839&oldid=83823 5* 03ResU 5* (+102) 10 > 1622636967 501782 PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, that's not right, RP² is genus 1 > 1622637047 549535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83840&oldid=83839 5* 03ResU 5* (+23) 10 > 1622637759 711979 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Otesunki 5* 10New user account > 1622637944 329854 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83841&oldid=83827 5* 03Otesunki 5* (+202) 10 > 1622637959 466135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NDBall14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83842&oldid=83818 5* 03Otesunki 5* (+2) 10The demonstration for vector lists is actually kinda wonk and incorrect > 1622638100 660825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83843&oldid=83840 5* 03ResU 5* (-29) 10/* Hello World */ < 1622638607 315462 :pippo!~Utente@host-79-12-52-4.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1622638649 478349 :pippo!~Utente@host-79-12-52-4.retail.telecomitalia.it PART :#esoteric > 1622638779 451076 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm going to call it here: there is no "non-orientable surface of genus zero" -- non-orientable surfaces must contain a mobius strip (genus 1) , can't find a reference, but surely a lower genus surface can't contain a higher one (otherwise it would be classified with the higher n) > 1622638933 137689 PRIVMSG #esoteric : This started off as an esolang related investigation I swear -- looking into describing a fungeoid playfield that is a n-holed torus rather than just a torus like Befunge and RASEL > 1622639164 526456 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83844&oldid=82672 5* 03ResU 5* (+90) 10 > 1622639275 184995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83845&oldid=83844 5* 03ResU 5* (+14) 10/* AEWNN */ > 1622640143 681096 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83846&oldid=83721 5* 03Batata 5* (+55) 10 > 1622640159 307715 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83847&oldid=83846 5* 03Batata 5* (+20) 10 > 1622640168 959036 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Batata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83848&oldid=83847 5* 03Batata 5* (+1) 10 > 1622640633 107572 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just confirming the Libera official browser client is Kiwi chat. It is. Hope this hasn't messed up my existing kc stored settings. > 1622640764 411730 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Guest28: the official browser client is https://web.libera.chat/ . I think you have to set your settings again, because it's a separate instance from the one in https://kiwiirc.com/ . > 1622640789 315003 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I imagine that was in fact the desired outcome here? > 1622640808 587919 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (As in, not affecting the settings of the non-branded Kiwi.) > 1622640825 903722 PRIVMSG #esoteric : If it's client-side settings, I rather imagine the web's origin-based security model is going to enforce that anyway. > 1622640826 170678 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, you could still use the one at https://kiwiirc.com/ since it handles connections to multiple networks together > 1622640887 926377 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: yes, that was me. non branded kiwi settings are fine > 1622640904 287062 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The IP was a bit of a giveaway. > 1622640920 797913 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh yeah, that's annoying. > 1622640934 107264 PRIVMSG #esoteric : just saw an announcement on http://subversion.apache.org/ that their official irc presence (I don't think they are actually too much present there) is on libera now > 1622640940 202 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Especially since it lined up, what with length "salpynx" == length "Guest28" and consecutive quit/join.) > 1622640952 775325 PRIVMSG #esoteric : does the cloak thing help with that? Not that I'm that worries (it's too late anyway) > 1622640965 355304 PRIVMSG #esoteric : nice, this one is official for esolangs now > 1622640991 940997 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Android just made no channel or network official, by removing all mention of IRC from the support page. > 1622641018 39603 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (freenode's #android-dev used to be mentioned there, though really it didn't have any *other* sort of official status except for the mention.) > 1622641019 544242 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was wondering is there any kind of semi-reasonable paranoia justified for using the kiwiiirc given all the freenet concerns about data. > 1622641050 580079 PRIVMSG #esoteric : freenode, it;s late, I need to stop and get some sleep soon > 1622641145 285090 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am using https://kiwiirc.com/ , with the multinetwork settings etc > 1622641574 50027 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83849&oldid=83843 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-10) 10Header level > 1622641797 528669 PRIVMSG #esoteric : regarding cloaks > 1622641798 733369 PRIVMSG #esoteric : > once you're a group contact there's a channel you can get invited to and you request in there > 1622641800 126528 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:86: error: parse error on input ‘in’ > 1622642728 882453 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, I got the impression that's the -community channel that got already mentioned. But I'll look into that once there's some initial list of cloaks people want. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Libera.Chat_community_and_cloaks / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks for those who filter away the recent changes feed. > 1622644211 136289 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07STACKOMP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83850 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+15366) 10Created page with "Example STACKOMP program: (logo.sk) v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>v > rstack.....v >.p..v > p >OO d v >Smpv v ^ S p<<<<< A..." > 1622644299 370557 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MartinAsdf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83851&oldid=72772 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+24) 10added stackomp > 1622644788 899019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MartinAsdf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83852&oldid=83851 5* 03MartinAsdf 5* (+20) 10 > 1622645473 685573 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SIMPLE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83853&oldid=65700 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+259) 10Acronym < 1622646432 180298 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-qwpganuqbjeeuykx JOIN :#esoteric < 1622647825 691798 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-qwpganuqbjeeuykx QUIT :Quit: dionys < 1622648189 609509 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bgsqfzqmdnlxnwev JOIN :#esoteric > 1622648380 716131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83854&oldid=83838 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+47) 10/* Returning data */ > 1622648550 188887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83855&oldid=83854 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+0) 10/* Variables */ > 1622648579 478046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83856&oldid=83855 5* 03Goglesq 5* (-151) 10 > 1622648638 87844 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83857&oldid=83856 5* 03Goglesq 5* (+3) 10/* Variables */ < 1622649076 924442 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1622650981 266880 :dionys!dionys@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bgsqfzqmdnlxnwev QUIT :Quit: dionys < 1622651060 846993 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1622651248 51960 :delta23!~deltaepsi@unaffiliated/deltaepsilon23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1622653055 646275 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Tech Support Scam14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83858 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+3166) 10Created page with "Tech Support Scam is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] where it sounds vaguely like you are on a phone call with a tech support scammer. Punct..." > 1622653139 645257 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83859&oldid=83468 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+28) 10 > 1622655962 784930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83860&oldid=83849 5* 03ResU 5* (+278) 10 > 1622656101 917280 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83861&oldid=83860 5* 03ResU 5* (+2) 10/* Cat program */ > 1622656597 858644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83862&oldid=83861 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-14) 10/* Cat program */ Use pre tag > 1622656671 801157 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AEWNN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83863&oldid=83862 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-3) 10/* Cat program */ /* Quine */ Isn't this really a quine? > 1622657215 1977 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I want to make nothing up my sleeve number by sufficiently old texts, such as "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". What other possibilities might there be? > 1622657727 275105 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Decimals extracted from famous constants (pi, e) are kind of the conventional ones, aren't they? > 1622657781 782885 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i dont like nothing up my sleeve numbers > 1622657793 315746 PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you want to specifically make it from well-known pieces of text... hmm, the ones that come to mind first are kind of political or religious, which you might want to avoid for obvious reasons. > 1622658110 302743 PRIVMSG #esoteric : How about: "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." > 1622658182 879339 PRIVMSG #esoteric : cd: not Alice I think, it doesn't have one canonical edition that you can get the text from I think > 1622658184 360639 PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you need a nothing-up-your-sleeve number for an Esolang article, something about the matrix of solidity would also work. > 1622658195 657954 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the same is the problem with Shakespeare or Vergilius probably > 1622658281 95655 PRIVMSG #esoteric : mathematical constants are probably better in that it's less likely that someone a few decades from now will suddenly decide that your now completely innocious text is very offensive to them and all references to it should be purged from cryptographic protocols > 1622658408 928722 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it's not easy to find anything old enough and widely distributed while still having one canonical version, unless it's something sacred like the Torah > 1622658494 165436 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Another nothing-up-your-sleeve source might be something that's a matter of the public record, like past Dow Jones Industrial Average values used for geohashing. < 1622659109 86952 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1622659196 57570 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how about the dates of eclipses > 1622659242 910484 PRIVMSG #esoteric : keegan: the problem is that for anything involving cryptography, you need to know an exact value, not an approximate real, and it's not clear that exact numerical values of eclipses are canonical > 1622659265 668028 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or that you can always round them that way and don't get eclipses that happen close to where your rounding would flip a bit > 1622659286 411002 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also they're sort of periodical which might be bad > 1622659313 69990 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I still the use of like fractional parts of square roots of the first primes for crypto protocols < 1622659929 377075 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1622663098 866493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83864&oldid=77847 5* 03Jedgrei 5* (-30) 10 > 1622663356 995233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83865&oldid=83864 5* 03Jedgrei 5* (-169) 10 > 1622664200 122805 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the old testament can be used as a number and has an established text-to-numer conversion > 1622664296 171166 PRIVMSG #esoteric : And of course doesn't fall into the "kind of political or religious" category at all. > 1622664389 447741 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm... I guess Greek also has established sufficiently-old numerical values for letters, so you could use e.g. the iliad > 1622664488 964552 PRIVMSG #esoteric : tfw your cryptographic algorithm accidentally generates the true name of god > 1622664627 621072 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oren: yes, and the greek vs hebrew numbers are mostly the same for corresponding letters too > 1622664627 799298 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is that an Unsong reference or something? > 1622664970 84726 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is there any French on this channel? > 1622665146 74343 PRIVMSG #esoteric : n-holed torus funge field sounds crazy ..D > 1622665820 518560 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: no it's vaguely a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film) > 1622665956 748389 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hey #esoteric community. someone recommended me the "uMatrix" plugin for Firefox browser. apparently this is similar in purpose to the NoScript plugin which I'm already using, in that it lets me configure with whatlists what scripts or other fancy webshit content webpages are allowed to load. do you have any experience with this "uMatrix" plugin, and can tell me about it, especially that one non-obvious > 1622665962 755197 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hint that will save me days of suffering if I know it in advance? > 1622666810 236317 PRIVMSG #esoteric : looks good so far. there'll be some setup period, but that's normal for this kind of thing. > 1622666863 29371 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have not had experience with it. Does it allow scripts and stuff to be substituted, or only blocked? What about headers? (I do have an extension to deal with headers, but making it a core part of the program dealing with sending requests and retrieving responses might be better; it can extend to any protocol and allow more to be added too.) > 1622666905 819113 PRIVMSG #esoteric : uBlock Origin FTW > 1622667053 6406 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it seems it only lets you allow or block stuff, not substituted, except possibly for the Referer, but how it differs from noscript seems to be that you can allow/block based on the pair of the domain of the main webpage and the domain of the requested resource, rather than only based on the requested resource like noscript does. which means I can tell it to forbid the giantitp.com forum to block loading > 1622667059 61287 PRIVMSG #esoteric : any off-site images, because it's a stupid forum that lets any poster embed externally hosted images to their posts. and then I can override that for images loaded from particular domains. > 1622667123 655239 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and on the forum, those images will still be in the document tree and show up an empty rectangle, so I can load any one image by clicking on "view image", which makes that the main webpage, and images are allowed in general for most webpages in the default config > 1622667150 645650 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: as for headers, it can specifically control cookies, and has something about Referer, I don't know about other headers > 1622667228 83031 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: the cookies are allowed or blocked based on combination of the domain of main website loaded on the tab and the domain of the nested request where the cookies would be sent > 1622667284 685010 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I like it so far, but I'll of course I may encounter problems weeks into browsing with it when visiting some particular website > 1622667424 237878 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Adding the user rules of headers into the core system can also define a uniform interface for setting language, do-not-track, cookies, etc. > 1622667478 490574 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there are still a few things for which I'd like a plugin (or an option in this plugin). namely firefox has a global option where it can forbid webpages to set font faces except to the four user-controllable ones (default, serif, sans-serif, monospaced), which is nice and I use it (it doesn't *quite* work as it should, if my choice of font lacks characters it will use whatever the webpage chose as a > 1622667482 763045 PRIVMSG #esoteric : For setting cookies you might also want cookies to be allowed or blocked based on their name and/or value as well, and possibly on path, not only by the domain. You might also want to override the expiry of cookies, or possibly also the values of cookies. > 1622667484 504771 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fallback font, but this is rarely relevant), but I'd like to be able to whitelist font faces per domain too > 1622667502 572232 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "giantitp.com forum" sounds like giant tit > 1622667511 305348 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would like to be able to whitelist font faces per MIME type of the document that uses the fonts. > 1622667517 716234 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and I'd like something like that for line-spacing too rather than font-face. a lot of webpages could be made better if the browser just ignored line-spacing declared in CSS everywhere. > 1622667588 515725 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes, I also; it is one of the things that my idea of "meta-CSS" would allow to do. > 1622667613 206095 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and I know I can override the individual CSS rules, and I sometimes do that, but it would be easier to just ignore the website's idea about the font-face or line-spacing (or whatever those are actually called) property no matter how it's set > 1622667641 212628 PRIVMSG #esoteric : now I'll visit some of my more frequently visited websites so I can set up settings for them > 1622667759 809655 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Meta-CSS would allow to change the definition of CSS properties, including conditionally based on the selectors and other properties.) > 1622667800 705493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83866 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+1393) 10Created page with "'''Nevermind''' is a simplistic programming language made by [[User:OfficialCraftCGame|CraftCGame]] in 2021. It uses commas ('','') to separate arguments. There is no escape c..." > 1622667895 577310 PRIVMSG #esoteric : one difficulty is that, just like noscript, if a webpage immediately redirects to another domain (usually via javascript but the principle is the same if it's a HTTP redirect), it's not easy to see what was allowed/blocked in the page that did the redirect, even though that's where you would have to change the permissions > 1622667897 839684 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Another of my idea is a nwe !priority CSS command that can only be specified by the end user (not by documents), which is another way to glboally override CSS even if !important is specified; you have to write !priority(0) or !priority(255) or whatever to set it. > 1622667924 340429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83867&oldid=83828 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+16) 10Added language "Nevermind" into the list > 1622667950 710256 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Yes, I know of that, and a solution (when it is a HTTP redirect) could be to record the chain of redirects and other requests so that they can be viewed later. > 1622667995 144816 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Firefox will record the requests but only if the appropriate web developer window is open.) > 1622668017 776420 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: that's not really enough, !important already does most of what you want in that !important in user styles are higher priority than !important in page styles, > 1622668036 98212 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83868&oldid=83866 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (-8) 10Changed the caption text in the table at the "Functions" section > 1622668149 882093 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm wait. specificity of css selectors have a total order, right? is there a way to write a selector that fakes to be more specific than almost any other selector, including id selectors, but still can match whatever I want, including all elements if I choose so? if that's possible with css, I could use that to override font-face or line-spacing on a whole webpage > 1622668155 46151 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: That is true, although there is still the priority by how specific the selector is. Also, in some cases you might want to be lower priority than page styles instead. > 1622668169 781408 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, except I'm not sure if it could override the style attribute of the element too > 1622668230 974574 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That too > 1622668255 969601 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nevermind14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83869&oldid=83868 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+70) 10/* Truth Machine */ Cats > 1622668602 555576 PRIVMSG #esoteric : use Stylebot extension to override styles > 1622668694 690326 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what I'd also like is to link multiple website domains together so they're controlled by the same rules > 1622669317 999610 PRIVMSG #esoteric : You might want to match more of the URL than just the domain, too. > 1622669512 642230 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: yes, there are some rare cases like taht > 1622669526 75149 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I do remember a few > 1622669920 869123 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm, I wonder if it's worth it to enable the `chghost` capability for the logger bot, and format those messages appropriately. Guess the question is, is the simulated "Changing hostname" QUIT-and-JOIN the canonical truth or not. > 1622670449 320194 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: (didn't read entire backlog) uMatrix is great, but unfortunately gorhill has stopped development. See https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix > 1622670605 669166 PRIVMSG #esoteric : dutch: thanks > 1622671131 942082 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/i240ds/request_for_a_stable_umatrix_release_for_cname/g048wyk/ > 1622671454 872442 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode ∇ > 1622671456 227810 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+2207 NABLA] > 1622671467 950112 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode ∆ > 1622671468 930969 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+2206 INCREMENT] > 1622671470 560118 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm > 1622671530 638932 PRIVMSG #esoteric : a nable is conceptually an inverted delta, not an inverted increment > 1622671537 900666 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so why isn't there a decrement operator in Unicode? > 1622671693 332603 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: I mostly follow the channel by logreading rather than idling > 1622671735 940616 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: I find it funny that you are mostly logreading but join to use HackEso's unidecode command of all things > 1622671793 150885 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but I understand you only did it to make a point to us > 1622671868 36383 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the other way round, actually, I was using it to *discover* that point > 1622671880 228404 PRIVMSG #esoteric : after going through two character map applications and discovering them to both be useless > 1622671886 466328 PRIVMSG #esoteric : then I started complaining, once I learned what the reality was > 1622671901 107509 PRIVMSG #esoteric : do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? ← I believe that their tunes username is part of the URL > 1622671959 920404 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think those two triangles are a bit weird, anyway. Because ∆ is also ∇². So they're kind of related. > 1622671969 765886 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: but a delta is a different codepoint entirely > 1622671988 460230 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode Δ > 1622671989 382133 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] > 1622671999 47877 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm > 1622672005 339870 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think of a nabla as being an upside-down Greek delta > 1622672007 150779 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but maybe it isn't? > 1622672043 566723 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just to add to the confusion, ∇ is also called "del". > 1622672071 710144 PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyway, the question is, I have an esolang which could plausibly use ∆ as one of the spellings of the increment operator > 1622672086 968642 PRIVMSG #esoteric : should it have a corresponding spellng for the decrement operator? and if so, should it be a nabla? > 1622672116 616463 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it is remarkably difficult to name an increment operator unambiguously > 1622672120 552220 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think *if* you're going to use a pair, ∇∆ is that pair, and don't get delta-the-letter involved. > 1622672127 50469 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I may have to resort to "+=1" and "increment" > 1622672173 201449 PRIVMSG #esoteric : gucharmap's notes say "U+2207 NABLA = backward difference; gradient, del * used for Laplacian operator (written with superscript 2)" and "U+2206 INCREMENT = Laplace operator; forward difference; symmetric difference (in set theory) * other symbols may also be used for symmetric difference". > 1622672180 134913 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've always wondered where those extra notes are from. > 1622672216 515002 PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh, I actually have a defined policy about these things, and if it also means "symmetric difference" (which is also a real function) it gets disallowed > 1622672234 833450 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (As in, are the notes also part of the Unicode standard / code charts or not.) > 1622672247 954395 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that makes things much easier > 1622672263 898477 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also distinct from the river thing > 1622672264 311968 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Apparently they are, judging from https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2200.pdf > 1622672267 1460 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what thing? > 1622672277 495814 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1. (1) delta -- (a low triangular area of alluvial deposits where a river divides before entering a larger body of water; "the Mississippi River delta"; "the Nile delta") > 1622672282 409363 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Aha lol > 1622672291 158430 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, thank you for telling me what gucharmap is called, now I have an actually viable character map program :-) > 1622672293 309854 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (it's still in the repos) > 1622672340 452741 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode △▽ > 1622672341 456727 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE] > 1622672344 507315 PRIVMSG #esoteric : they look subtly different in my font too, but it's very subtle > 1622672351 416235 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the second one is a pixel taller, I think > 1622672353 66353 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: I thought the Delta as used for ∇² was just a greek Delta used in this meaning. I don't really understand why there's a separate ∆ character for it, and probably wouldn't use it. but apparently I do have a glyph for the ∆ character in my font, which is odd because it still has too few of these math glyphs, I should add some more. > 1622672365 118239 PRIVMSG #esoteric : You could go with the WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE and the WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE, those don't seem to have any semantic baggage. > 1622672388 32946 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, one of my aims is for the language to be fast to program in and easy to read > 1622672404 993747 PRIVMSG #esoteric : so I support a lot of possible names for the builtins, then normalize them into something that looks better > 1622672407 220546 PRIVMSG #esoteric : e.g. * becoming × > 1622672431 318552 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but it seems like increment/decrement don't have any more readable and unambiguous way to write them than "increment" and "decrement" > 1622672466 240556 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `unidecode Δ∆△🛆🜂 > 1622672466 783857 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "+=1", "-=1" are also clear, but you have issues like "++" meaning append in some languages, or "--" being a comment marker > 1622672467 960171 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+1F6C6 TRIANGLE WITH ROUNDED CORNERS] [U+1F702 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR FIRE] > 1622672473 15654 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and "+1" and "-1" look like integers > 1622672500 130134 PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe I should just go for "inc" and "dec", although even "dec" looks like "decimal" > 1622672542 439845 PRIVMSG #esoteric : All those five look pretty alike in my browser: https://zem.fi/tmp/tri.png > 1622672568 236741 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, they're obviously all different, but all triangles in a similar orientation > 1622672580 402223 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://i.imgur.com/Gh3jd4K.png > 1622672635 652648 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: "+=1" and "-=1" look good to me, people are already used to it because that's how you write in-place increment in python and some other languages > 1622672664 908932 PRIVMSG #esoteric : though I'd usually write " += 1" but the spaces clearly have no semantic value there > 1622672743 967309 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm, interesting. When I use `scrot` to take a screenshot, it renders pixel-perfect in a "dumb" image viewer (say, sxiv), but it's very messily scaled when the same file is opened in a browser, even when the zoom level is set to 100%. > 1622672749 206973 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm guessing maybe scrot writes the display DPI into the PNG metadata somewhere, and then the browser tries to "correct" it for the physical size, and they disagree about that. > 1622672784 89982 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: the spacing is important in this language, it tokenizes on spaces > 1622672796 135210 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it's semi-important for a user to know where the token boundaries are > 1622672807 37276 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: yes, but here it's between tokens > 1622672816 582030 PRIVMSG #esoteric : spaces inside tokens are important of course, that happens in many languages > 1622672820 969437 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, increment is a single token in this language, even if it's two in Python > 1622672823 53417 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Is there a `pdfinfo` equivalent for PNG files?) > 1622672868 994286 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: `less` works for basic info, as does `file` > 1622672890 317647 PRIVMSG #esoteric : apparently there's a pnginfo in the Ubuntu repositories > 1622672892 750884 PRIVMSG #esoteric : imagemagick's `identify` command says "PNG 158x41 158x41+0+0 8-bit sRGB 1389B 0.000u 0:00.000". > 1622672916 42090 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 01-- > 1622672930 679192 PRIVMSG #esoteric : huh, is sRGB there a color space or specification of which color channels exist or both? > 1622672954 22448 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: maybe exiftool? I don't know what pdfinfo does. or ImageMagick's identify with specific parameters such as -verbose to print everything. > 1622672959 918150 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: is there something specific you want to extract? > 1622673017 558680 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Whether there's something encoded about the physical size / resolution. But the `pnginfo` tool from the `pngtools` package says "Resolution: 0, 0 (unit unknown)". > 1622673027 269921 PRIVMSG #esoteric : So I'm not sure why Chrome would display it scaled. > 1622673041 947728 PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe because the resolution info is invalid? > 1622673043 279137 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you want to see everything, I recommend (identify -verbose "$filename"; exiftool -G2 "$filename";) to see everything, > 1622673056 288723 PRIVMSG #esoteric : which file are you talking about? > 1622673058 221384 PRIVMSG #esoteric : then once you find out what you want, there's a way to restrict either of those tools to print only that one thing > 1622673059 880648 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I guess maybe it's going "hmm, this image has no specified resolution, I'm going to guess 72 dpi" and then "hmm, this resolution doesn't match the screen DPI, I must scale it to present it in the right physical size". > 1622673090 69079 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, https://zem.fi/tmp/tri2.png in this case. > 1622673114 578154 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, both my Chromium and my Firefox sem to handle it correctly > 1622673144 669382 PRIVMSG #esoteric : pixelWidth: 158 pixelHeight: 41 typeIdentifier: public.png format: png formatOptions: default dpiWidth: 72.000 dpiHeight: 72.000 samplesPerPixel: 3 bitsPerSample: 8 hasAlpha: no space: RGB > 1622673145 188988 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Maybe it's a new Chrome thing. I don't think I've seen it before at home, but my work Chrome has been persistently doing something weird around those lines. > 1622673190 808638 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Thanks for `identify -verbose`. I tried `-h` and `--help`, and when neither provided useful output, stopped guessing. < 1622673197 482634 :LKoen!~LKoen@73.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” > 1622673207 753906 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Seems like I should've gone with `-help`. > 1622673212 908950 PRIVMSG #esoteric : sometimes programs give useful information if you run them with no args at all > 1622673215 419357 PRIVMSG #esoteric : But single-dash long options just feel a little weird. > 1622673227 103190 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...oh, that would have worked too. > 1622673235 551299 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and there will often (but not always) be a man page, too > 1622673250 651417 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: also in general for media files, you can also try (ffprobe -of flat -show_format -show_streams "$file";) but for a png file it's unlikely to tell anything that identify and exiftool doesn't show. > 1622673263 202747 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think my usual convention for usage information is "provide a man page, give usage information on --help or if there's an invalid argument, also give usage information if run with no arguments and that doesn't otherwise make sense for the program" > 1622673299 810332 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: (identify;) without arguments works for the help, but you may have to look at HTML manuals too and even then you won't easily find all info about ImageMagick > 1622673333 877884 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, i initially interpreted "HTML manuals" as manuals about HTML, rather than manuals formatted using HTML > 1622673347 143115 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: wait, I forgot an important one > 1622673360 14208 PRIVMSG #esoteric : English can be so ambiguous sometimes, that's one of the reasons to create esolangs > 1622673386 638245 PRIVMSG #esoteric : width: 158 height: 41 bands: 3 format: uchar coding: none interpretation: srgb xoffset: 0 yoffset: 0 xres: 2.83465 yres: 2.83465 > 1622673392 612569 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: there was a specific tool for pngs that you can use to redo the compression or losslessly crop at block boundaries without redoing the fourier transform and quantization > 1622673395 875847 PRIVMSG #esoteric : let me find it > 1622673402 718232 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Eyeballing the sizes (between sxiv and Chrome), I don't think it's quite "assume 72 dpi, scale to adjust to correct physical size given the 104 dpi screen density" level weird. But it's doing *something* odd. > 1622673402 807186 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and that same library had an info tool > 1622673419 406068 PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://zem.fi/tmp/tri3.png shows both side-by-side (sxiv left, Chrome right). > 1622673455 6967 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (The left side should have no antialiasing/scaling going on.) > 1622673470 924315 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: pngtools debian package, (pnginfo "*.png";) > 1622673489 83177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : the above outputs were from sips and vips > 1622673509 994331 PRIVMSG #esoteric : probably also won't tell you anything that exiftool doesn't, but the pngtools package is worth knowing in general > 1622673540 293541 PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: why do you use "(…;)" to quote shell commands on IRC? > 1622673548 205932 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: no, I usually omit the semicolon > 1622673554 826405 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think real shells need the semicolon > 1622673559 123799 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but I do use parenthesis to quote shell commands often, even on irc > 1622673580 276056 PRIVMSG #esoteric : parenthesis are nice because they work this way in both shell and cmd, so I can quote either kind of command with them > 1622673584 855444 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah, I see > 1622673585 925408 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83870&oldid=79860 5* 03MilkyWay90 5* (+199) 10 > 1622673598 453833 PRIVMSG #esoteric : although in sh-alikes it's more than just a quote, it runs the command in a new subshell > 1622673602 560875 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and shell commands often have other kinds of quotes or weird characters in them > 1622673622 473074 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes > 1622673625 309250 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: yes, you have to put a function header before them like f() if you want to quote the contents as a shell command > 1622673633 668153 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've taken to using «» for quoting code (including shell commands) > 1622673642 719871 PRIVMSG #esoteric : although even that doesn't work for some languages, like Perl 6 and Jelly > 1622673693 768062 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that might work, but the problem with them is that there are both french-style «..» quotes and german-style »..« quotes which can make any use confusing > 1622673715 379339 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (and yes, the french-style would technically be « .. » because they put spaces inside > 1622673731 997118 PRIVMSG #esoteric : »..« looks like a confusion sign > 1622673734 445486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : which makes it even harder to tell if it's a starting or ending quote character, there's a space on both sides) > 1622673791 281128 PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's probably no nice way to quote any programming language, but you can often find a natural style for any particular language > 1622673807 917730 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Weird. It's just doing the wrong thing throughout. Even in the devtools inspector thing, if I look at a preview of the response, it does the bad scaling. (Okay, stands to reason it'd use the same code to render images. But still.) > 1622673827 876300 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Chromium does the same.) > 1622673841 854228 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Firefox doesn't.) > 1622673844 902205 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: you could try to extract the image with some other tool and reencode it > 1622673855 956872 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or is this something you want to debug to fix? > 1622673895 802583 PRIVMSG #esoteric : when I need to do a screenshot with details I drag the window to retina display > 1622673908 72810 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if I do screenshot on a usual one it's blurred > 1622673920 313793 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean, it has lower resolution > 1622673924 431607 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, preferably I'd like it fixed. But I'm not sure how much effort I want to dedicate to it. > 1622674188 926618 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Looking at an entirely different image that does have a set resolution (a pretty arbitrary one, 38.98x38.58 PixelsPerCentimeter), it's being scaled too. So maybe it *is* just assuming a resolution for the first PNG (just not 72; maybe it's been upgraded to default to 96 or something) and then trying to present it with the "physical" size. But I'd really rather it just render the pixels at 1:1 size. > 1622674241 301489 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: I think Gimp has an option to do either for its zoom levels > 1622674261 847046 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: is this a standalone PNG in the tab, or inside a HTML? > 1622674287 533104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : A standalone PNG in a tab. But it does the same if I just do a minimal HTML wrapper, . > 1622674306 537843 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OfficialCraftCGame14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83871&oldid=83814 5* 03OfficialCraftCGame 5* (+14) 10 > 1622674351 470267 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ok. I imagine the two can differ. > 1622674364 713111 PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, could > 1622674369 895283 PRIVMSG #esoteric : If I slap a style="image-rendering: pixelated;" on it, it still maintains the scaling, just does the nearest-neighbor thing. > 1622674460 505202 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because HTML has its own odd rules about images that are partly inherited from multiple decade long tradition of netscape/mozilla/firefox emulating msie, then chrome or opera or safari emulating mozilla, then edge emulating everything else again etc > 1622674549 368059 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and then a growing set of extensions, including this new one that lets you give multiple image sources of which the browser chooses one depending on what resolution the image will be displayed in which can depend on whether you're using a high resolution monitor that has two pixels for every traditional pixel measured in a webpage, which is a nice extension but its syntax is seriously messed up in a way > 1622674555 535532 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you think people would have learned not to do anymore when adding features to HTML > 1622674659 276493 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Even if I render it as the page background with style="background-image: url('tri3.png');", it's still scaled. And not in Firefox. Odd. > 1622674835 411158 PRIVMSG #esoteric : And the exact same thing happens to something like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Png_pixel_cube.png -- the image as viewed in Firefox is rendered "naturally", but the one in Chrome is scaled by... 69/64. > 1622674853 575553 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: make sure this isn't just caused by some unusual setting or plugin that you set in those browsers > 1622674911 748129 PRIVMSG #esoteric : If it is, I don't know what setting it could be. The Chromium one definitely should be pretty vanilla. > 1622674921 891314 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also some servers will try to force you to download the picture instead of displaying it, although I can usually force it to display it in the browser by entering a data: URI > 1622674931 539880 PRIVMSG #esoteric : My "desktop environment", on the other hand, might be more uncommon, though. > 1622674970 617332 PRIVMSG #esoteric : What desktop environment is that? > 1622675073 97371 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, it's no specific one. It's just Xmonad as a window manager, and some bits and pieces of GTK+ thing. > 1622675076 979189 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Also, I don't have the problem with wrong scaling on the browser) > 1622675090 26770 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what do you mean scaled by 69/64? distorted the aspect ratio? > 1622675115 535809 PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, just uniformly scaled. > 1622675126 467645 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The image itself is 64x64 pixels, but it's rendered as 69x69. > 1622675149 387298 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah > 1622675217 207465 PRIVMSG #esoteric : renders as 64 and 128 for me > 1622675233 705369 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I did a chrome://flags + "reset all" just to be sure, so it shouldn't be a manually enabled weird setting either. > 1622675261 262883 PRIVMSG #esoteric : make sure to do ctrl +/- until it says 100% > 1622675289 459782 PRIVMSG #esoteric : no > 1622675304 749374 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ctrl-0 resets to your settings default that can be different > 1622675316 333511 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's been 100% the whole time. > 1622675338 669859 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I use a program I wrote by myself to take screenshots. (They don't have as many options as scrot, because other programs can be used for many of the things. However, one option that perhaps should be added is the option to control if the mouse cursor is captured; scrot does have that option.) > 1622675610 249011 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just verified that it's not a PNG-specific problem. Opening a (data URI that encodes a) 222x227 pixel JPEG file renders a rectangle that's exactly 222x227 pixels in Firefox, but 239x245 in Chromium. > 1622675714 763891 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can't believe it's intentional, I think it must be some kind of a bug. But not an obvious one to track down. > 1622675741 599572 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83872&oldid=83867 5* 03ResU 5* (+12) 10Added AEWNN > 1622675797 314104 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm. > 1622675811 113048 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I started chromium with --force-device-scale-factor=1 and it stopped scaling. > 1622675819 648991 PRIVMSG #esoteric : So I guess you might be right in that. > 1622675822 203993 PRIVMSG #esoteric : basically retina is just doubling the resolution > 1622675835 186859 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and disables font antialiasing > 1622675849 25825 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or whatever it's called > 1622675867 394460 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's just that, I don't think it makes sense to do scaling like that when the display depth is so close. > 1622675895 685907 PRIVMSG #esoteric : s/depth/density/ > 1622675911 120221 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, for now I'll just stick that flag onto my list. > 1622675948 29410 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh, I guess another alternative would be to just make the display resolution lie. > 1622675963 793547 PRIVMSG #esoteric : But maybe it's convenient to be actually able to approximate physical sizes in Gimp or whatnot. > 1622676000 726125 PRIVMSG #esoteric : btw, recently Chrome started showing everything smaller for me both on Windows and macOS > 1622676146 652827 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83873&oldid=83872 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+24) 10 > 1622678030 684301 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth Machine (esolang)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83874 5* 03ResU 5* (+587) 10Created page with "'''Truth Machine''' is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. [[Category:2021]][[Category:Languages]] ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !Description |- |input(a..." > 1622678101 610433 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03ResU 5* 10moved [[02Truth Machine (esolang)10]] to [[Truth Machine (language)]] > 1622678111 855728 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, the GTK UI does `resolution / 96` as the scale factor, and then rounds it to the nearest 1/64th, meaning my 104/96 rounds to exactly 69/64. Or something along those lines. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/gtk/gtk_ui.cc;l=1085;drc=71ce45f2f742ca6449749a906ce5bb9948c8b555 > 1622678117 167238 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It doesn't seem to have changed recently, but maybe what has changed is how universally fractional scaling factors are applied to images, or something. Because while --force-device-scale-factor=1 does solve the ugly image scaling, everything *else* does look a little smaller now than I'm used to. But maybe it's not really logically consistent to scale text and other scalable things while keeping images > 1622678123 233655 PRIVMSG #esoteric : unscaled. > 1622678138 423846 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Maybe I'll just get used to the smaller size.