←2021-05-20 2021-05-21 2021-05-22→ ↑2021 ↑all
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01:06:37 <esolangs> [[3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+936) Created page with "3 is an esoteric programming language which is a subset of JavaScript. In 3, every sequence of 3 consecutive character must contain at least one 3. ==Sample Programs== ===He..."
01:07:02 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83117&oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+1)
01:12:43 <chibi> ski: I'm not a bot, and unfortunately I don't know scheme either :P
01:13:28 <ski> yea, i realized
01:13:45 <ski> i just associated to the Chibi implementation of Scheme (by foof, iirc)
01:15:39 <int-e> little schemers...
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01:25:25 <chibi> Heh, maybe I should learn scheme
01:30:45 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83118&oldid=83117 * AndrewBayly * (+82)
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07:03:55 <Taneb> Good morning!
07:04:13 <shachaf> Haneb!
07:05:54 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
07:05:56 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
07:06:07 <shachaf> `? ruin
07:06:09 <HackEso> ruin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:08:03 <shachaf> `dowg ruin
07:08:08 <HackEso> 11515:2018-04-17 <wob_jonäs> forget ruin//ruin \ 11514:2018-04-17 <int-̈e> learn ruin//Ruin lies in ruins after a ruined ruination by Taneb.
07:08:58 <shachaf> Maybe int-e meant to use le/rn and it never happened.
07:08:58 <Taneb> How ruinous
07:09:16 <Taneb> `? ruin//Ruin
07:09:17 <HackEso> ruin//Ruin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:10:16 <shachaf> `cbt forget
07:10:17 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done
07:10:24 <shachaf> `cbt rm-p
07:10:24 <HackEso> rm "$1" && { rmdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null; exit 0; }
07:11:04 <shachaf> i,i lecturer in recent ruins
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08:24:26 <int-e> shachaf: stranger things have happened
08:37:20 <int-e> shachaf: in context you probably ruined the joke for me, err I mean gently convinced me it wasn't worth it
10:44:11 <esolangs> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83119&oldid=81196 * Int-e * (-66) Remove non-category, again. Sigh.
10:56:15 <esolangs> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83120&oldid=80756 * Int-e * (+0) fix cat(meow)egory typo
10:57:33 <fizzie> Just found out that ^ that silly thing will segfault if the wiki is edited during a moment when it's temporarily disconnected from IRC.
10:58:18 <fizzie> // TODO: don't try until a connection has been established
11:00:25 <int-e> hah
11:00:39 <int-e> `quote todo
11:00:40 <HackEso> 7) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life \ 21) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 29) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
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13:11:33 <esolangs> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83121&oldid=81584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Truth-machine */ fix
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13:21:10 <fizzie> I think the reason that got left as a TODO is it wasn't quite as trivial as just not calling flush; I've just got a single send queue, which is also used for the connection registration (NICK/PASS and so on), but optimally you'd want an "external" send to either wait until *after* that has completed. Hmm.
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14:30:17 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83122&oldid=83113 * Batata * (+12)
14:30:27 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83123&oldid=83122 * Batata * (+4)
14:30:59 <int-e> fizzie: leave it for later :P
14:32:10 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83124&oldid=83123 * Batata * (+8)
14:32:56 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83125&oldid=83124 * Batata * (+54)
14:33:14 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83126&oldid=83125 * Batata * (-7)
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14:33:35 <fizzie> Maybe the right thing to do (on the library level) is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel. I don't want to end up in a situation where it's offline for days, then joins and floods all wiki changes at once.
14:34:05 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83127&oldid=83126 * Batata * (+31)
14:34:20 -!- moony has changed nick to cd.
14:34:24 <int-e> or overengineer it with a ring buffer of configurable length
14:34:52 <fizzie> Strictly speaking it's got one ring buffer of configurable length already. :)
14:36:08 <fizzie> Maybe I'll engineer it into a combination ring buffer and priority queue / dependency tree thing, so that you can express the notion "send this but only when this constraint is satisfied".
14:38:30 <fizzie> It's also got one of those flow control things where it tracks how much "credit" you're expected to have, with different commands having a different base cost, and a constant rate of refill.
14:39:13 <fizzie> Which I think I looked at one of the (simpler) ircd's to set up. And then rounded up a little, because you can't quite predict how it will look like to the server.
14:44:57 <int-e> . o O ( semaphore )
14:47:08 <b_jonas> "Maybe the right thing to do […] is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel." => certainly better than segfaulting
15:05:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83128&oldid=82963 * Batata * (+49)
15:06:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83129&oldid=83128 * Batata * (-3)
15:06:58 <fizzie> That's an odd edit.
15:08:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83130&oldid=83129 * Batata * (-4)
15:09:42 <int-e> but mostly harmless?
15:10:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83131&oldid=83130 * Batata * (+72)
15:11:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83132&oldid=83131 * Batata * (+12)
15:14:20 <fizzie> Yeah, I just wonder what it's leading to.
15:14:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ilaylevy * New user account
15:14:38 <oren> wait why would mussolini make everyone speak spanish
15:14:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83133&oldid=83132 * Batata * (-2)
15:15:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83134&oldid=83133 * Batata * (-12)
15:15:27 <int-e> oren: too much Monty Python?
15:22:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83135&oldid=83127 * Batata * (+44)
15:23:11 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83136&oldid=83135 * Batata * (+0)
15:24:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83137&oldid=83136 * Batata * (+2)
15:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83138&oldid=83137 * Batata * (+1)
15:27:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83139&oldid=83138 * Batata * (+0)
15:28:40 * cd angrily shakes fist at user that isn’t using the Preview button
15:33:05 <fizzie> I know there's some (at least two) approaches that force a preview before save, but I don't know if it's really worth it.
15:34:24 <fizzie> If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does.
15:35:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83140&oldid=83089 * Ilaylevy * (+143) /* Introductions */
15:36:04 <esolangs> [[Yogurt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (+446) Created page with "<h1>Yogurt is a language that uses only 1 character to do a certain action, for example:</h1> {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Symbol !! Action |- | p || prints the c..."
15:37:34 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83142&oldid=83139 * Batata * (+0)
15:38:01 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83143&oldid=83142 * Batata * (+9)
15:45:42 <nakilon> ?dowg
15:45:42 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yow docs do
15:46:07 <nakilon> `?dowg
15:46:09 <HackEso> ​?dowg? No such file or directory
15:46:16 <nakilon> `? dowg
15:46:17 <HackEso> A dowg is a wise dog. One who uses many dowgs is known as a dowager.
15:46:28 <nakilon> `? cbt
15:46:29 <HackEso> ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:49:39 <nakilon> how and what these bots respond makes me feel stupid
15:50:36 <int-e> `hurl ../bin/cbt
15:50:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/cbt
15:51:15 <int-e> oh, of course.
15:51:17 <int-e> `cbt cbt
15:51:18 <HackEso> cat $HACKENV/bin/"$1"
15:51:29 <int-e> `hwrl cbt
15:51:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/cbt
15:52:54 <int-e> `? cbt
15:52:55 <HackEso> ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:53:30 <int-e> Oh it prepends a `... when did that happen
15:55:21 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-04-18.html#lNb is less illuminating than I hoped
15:58:19 <nakilon> `cbt mkx
15:58:20 <HackEso> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
16:01:19 <nakilon> `cbt mk
16:01:20 <HackEso> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
16:01:25 <nakilon> oh god
16:03:55 <fizzie> HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch.
16:05:51 <int-e> nakilon: maybe the trouble with wisdoms is that it's impossible to tell apart the smart ones from the stupid but obscure ones.
16:06:45 <int-e> (and of course some of them combine both qualities, smart and obscure)
16:06:56 <nakilon> `cbt hurl
16:06:57 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(f))
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16:10:14 <tech_exorcist> hello
16:10:52 <int-e> nakilon: there's url, for the url of a file in the repo; hurl for its history... and then silly things like hwrl for hurl, but relative to $HACKENV/wisdom
16:10:55 <cd> `relcome
16:10:56 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:11:24 <int-e> `hbrl cbt
16:11:25 <HackEso> hbrl? No such file or directory
16:11:35 <int-e> not this one, okay.
16:11:52 <int-e> `hoag ../bin/cbt
16:11:54 <HackEso> ​<fizzïe> sled /hackenv/bin/cbt//s|cat bin|cat $HACKENV/bin| \ <shachäf> mkx bin/cbt//cat bin/"$1"
16:12:20 <int-e> Somebody explained that one to me at least once but I forgot.
16:12:26 <nakilon> `cbt hoag
16:12:27 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
16:12:54 <cd> Half the scripts in bin are just incomprehensible aha
16:12:54 <nakilon> `cbt hlnp
16:12:55 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
16:13:20 <int-e> `? nitia
16:13:21 <HackEso> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
16:13:30 <cd> `? Moony
16:13:32 <HackEso> moony is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moon moon__ noomy computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain.
16:13:44 <int-e> `culprits ../quotes
16:13:46 <HackEso> arseniïv int-̈e user345̈6 kspalaiologös km̈c wib_jonäs fizzïe oerjän fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe arseniïv ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 kspalaiologös oerjän km̈c km̈c shachäf oerjän oerjän b_jonäs oerjän b_jonäs b_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän arseniïv oerjän oerjän alercäh oerjän shachäf shachäf wob_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf int-̈e int-̈e oer
16:13:47 <cd> now cd and moon get to be added to the list, huzzah
16:13:56 <int-e> ah, too long, hmm
16:14:18 <cd> If only I remembered how to edit wisdom entries
16:14:22 <cd> it’s been quite a bit
16:15:53 <nakilon> `cbt sled
16:15:54 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ opts="${2--i}" \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed $opts "$value" "$key" ;
16:16:39 <int-e> `cwlprits ../bin/roll
16:16:41 <HackEso> nitïa
16:16:43 <nakilon> Rosebud? wtf
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16:17:13 <int-e> nakilon: note the command name
16:17:28 <int-e> or maybe you don't know the movie, hmm
16:17:35 <int-e> (spoiler warning)
16:17:35 <fizzie> Tempted to do a tvtropes ItWasHisSled link here.
16:17:37 <cd> heh
16:17:53 <cd> Took me a minute
16:17:56 -!- cd has changed nick to moony.
16:18:46 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/109/
16:19:00 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I don't want to be a ruiner of jokes.
16:19:20 <nakilon> wtf
16:20:03 <moony> No command line tool is complete without a sense of humor
16:20:06 <int-e> Oh wow. https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further
16:20:20 <nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me
16:20:22 <int-e> moony: every unix program will evolve until it can read email
16:21:01 <moony> humor@unix.tools
16:21:23 <int-e> (followup: rm -rf /var/spool/mail = read mail, really fast)
16:21:25 <moony> (Sadly not a real domain)
16:22:06 <fizzie> `` cbt rnooodl # speaking of obsolete nonsense
16:22:07 <nakilon> "However it happened, this person who I will never know, spent an hour teaching me how to use IRC."
16:22:08 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
16:22:15 <nakilon> yeah there was a time when people were open to be taught
16:23:15 <moony> Hackego’s bin is treasure trove of random silly things from across time
16:24:09 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, the generalized version is not obsolete.
16:24:20 <shachaf> `dobg rnooodl
16:24:22 <HackEso> 8518:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 <shachäf> sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016-05-29 <oerja
16:24:58 <int-e> shachaf may be better at explaining the finer points of bin/ etymology
16:25:45 <moony> Hm, I don’t remember, there’s a way for a command to figure out what user is running it correct?
16:26:00 <int-e> `whoami
16:26:01 <HackEso> int-e
16:26:09 <int-e> `cbt whoami
16:26:10 <HackEso> echo -n $IRC_NICK; if [[ "$1" == "-v" && -n "$IRC_IDENT" ]]; then echo -n "!$IRC_IDENT"; if [[ -n "$IRC_HOST" ]]; then echo -n "@$IRC_HOST"; fi; fi; echo
16:26:29 <moony> Ah yep there we to
16:26:32 <moony> *go
16:27:05 <fizzie> `` env | grep ^IRC | paste
16:27:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.2156
16:27:20 <nakilon> `cbt paste
16:27:21 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] && url "$1" 2>/dev/null # Save making a file when it already exists. \ then \ true \ else \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/tmp/paste \ \ url $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat -- "${1--}" > $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ fi
16:27:45 <fizzie> `` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:46 <HackEso> ​`` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:50 <nakilon> omg we even have a pastebin
16:27:57 <moony> i have some ideas again but I’m on phone which is a terrible place to do shell scripting
16:27:58 <fizzie> Oh no, the whitespace got lost in there.
16:28:15 <fizzie> Well, collapsed, not lost.
16:29:10 <int-e> `` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:11 <HackEso> ​`` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:42 <int-e> (just checking, I was only 99% sure)
16:33:28 <shachaf> So I used to think of "quine just literally reading the program code" and "quine doing it properly" as very distinct classes, with the former one cheating.
16:33:48 <shachaf> But then I was thinking about writing a .COM program which is also a quine.
16:34:04 <shachaf> And in that situation the line is much more blurry.
16:36:10 <int-e> von Neumann quines vs. Harvard quines.
16:37:32 <shachaf> Right.
16:38:58 <b_jonas> `env
16:38:59 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=##esoteric \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy= \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
16:39:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: for the future when we might own #esoteric on libera, you should consider to add an env-var to distinguish chat networks (sorry)
16:41:20 <b_jonas> "HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch." => yeah. and I live in the continent and don't eat kangaroo meat.
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16:42:08 <fizzie> That's a pretty short environment. And yeah. Although I'm still partial to the boring `#esolangs` name (sorry).
16:42:41 <shachaf> Wait, this channel is about esoteric languages?
16:43:04 <moony> I thought this was just a chat room, since when were funny looking languages involve
16:43:49 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me" => possibly both
16:44:13 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83144&oldid=83022 * Zero player rodent * (-464)
16:45:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm fine with #esolangs as long as we redirect #esoteric there for discoverability
16:46:18 <b_jonas> we have seen users return to #esoteric after years of absence, and if there are such in the future, they will look for #esoteric on libera and freenode
16:47:23 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | rasel
16:47:24 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:47:52 <b_jonas> moony: the funny looking languages are involved by being collected on the wiki as a public service to keep terrible articles away from wikipedia. we are the heirs of Intercal and so we clean up our own garbage.
16:48:14 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:14 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:20 <nakilon> hm
16:48:39 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ./rasel
16:48:40 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:48:47 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:48 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:54 <moony> Ahaha yes, I’ve had to clean people’s so langs off of wikipedia
16:49:10 <moony> autocorreeccccccctttttttt! Stop that
16:49:46 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:49:47 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:49:51 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:49:52 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:50:14 <nakilon> I'm doing smth wrong
16:51:58 <moony> `cat bin/rasel
16:51:59 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/rasel ': No such file or directory
16:52:06 <moony> spaceeee
16:52:13 <moony> `cat bin/rasel
16:52:13 <HackEso> echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:52:19 <moony> `rasel
16:52:20 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:52:29 <moony> `ls
16:52:30 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ rasel_files \ rasel.jar \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
16:52:51 <b_jonas> `pwd
16:52:51 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
16:54:26 <moony> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo “$@“ | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:54:28 <nakilon> ``rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:54:29 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/rasel
16:54:29 <HackEso> ​`rasel? No such file or directory
16:54:35 <moony> `rasel
16:54:36 <HackEso> No output.
16:54:50 <moony> there
16:55:26 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:55:27 <HackEso> No output.
16:56:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: try without apostrophes
16:56:39 <nakilon> oh moony's autocomplete
16:57:01 <nakilon> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:57:03 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/rasel
16:57:10 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:11 <HackEso> No output.
16:57:21 <int-e> `` rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:23 <HackEso> Hello, World!
16:57:37 <int-e> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
16:57:38 <HackEso> Hello, World!
16:57:39 <nakilon> oh finally
16:57:57 <nakilon> thanks guys
16:58:00 <b_jonas> and you might want to install to a permanent directory in /hackenv/lib or something, not /hackenv/tmp
16:58:33 <nakilon> is there a hackenv/lib?
16:59:03 <nakilon> `ls hackenv/lib
16:59:04 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'hackenv/lib': No such file or directory
16:59:07 <nakilon> `ls /hackenv/lib
16:59:08 <HackEso> c++decl \ cdecl \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma \ kps \ morse-decode \ p7zip-16.02
16:59:48 <b_jonas> and a share too. but no libexec yet.
17:00:07 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83145&oldid=83144 * Zero player rodent * (+50)
17:00:46 <b_jonas> there's also an ibin, which is a relic of EgoBot's legacy
17:01:11 <b_jonas> and an interps
17:01:23 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83146&oldid=83145 * Zero player rodent * (+41)
17:01:29 <b_jonas> I think interps is the lib directory for where ibin is the bin directory, or maybe backwards
17:01:45 <b_jonas> yeah, ibin is the bin, interps is the lib
17:01:50 <nakilon> this is beyond my understanding
17:02:41 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/tmp is not version controlled, and may be purged once every few years. it's useful for temporary stuff that survives between commands, but probably not the best for a permanent installation
17:03:01 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share are useful for when you want to install something permanently and it's more than just an executable in /hackenv/bin
17:03:33 <b_jonas> /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share and /hackenv/bin are version-controlled, and you can have something from /hackenv/bin refer to additional files in /hackenv/lib or /hackenv/share
17:04:12 <shachaf> What is this rasel thing, though?
17:04:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: some befunge-like language that nakilon is making https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel
17:04:45 <int-e> an anagram of laser
17:05:39 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("laser")==sorted("rasel"))
17:05:40 <HackEso> True
17:05:49 <nakilon> int-e lol
17:06:26 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("release")==sorted("rasel"))
17:06:27 <HackEso> False
17:06:49 <int-e> b_jonas: that's the enterprise edition
17:07:04 <int-e> (raselEE)
17:07:11 <b_jonas> yeah
17:07:57 <nakilon> `mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:07:57 <HackEso> mv: missing destination file operand after '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem' \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
17:08:18 <nakilon> ``mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:19 <HackEso> ​`mv? No such file or directory
17:08:24 <int-e> nakilon: start with "`` "
17:08:25 <nakilon> ffuuuuu
17:08:27 <moony> Add a space
17:08:29 <int-e> you need the space too
17:08:33 <nakilon> `` mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:35 <HackEso> mv: cannot stat '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files': No such file or directory
17:08:44 <nakilon> it's gone already lol
17:08:47 <int-e> `cbt `
17:08:48 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
17:09:10 <int-e> `` is just like `cbt , a command we wrote to have more fun
17:09:12 <moony> why is rnooodl in there
17:09:20 <int-e> `ls ../tmp
17:09:21 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
17:09:22 <shachaf> Oh, nice, someone fell into that trap again.
17:09:50 <int-e> trap?
17:09:52 <int-e> `? trap
17:10:19 <shachaf> Where trying to mv a file out of tmp/ just permanently deletes it.
17:10:31 <nakilon> nice
17:10:51 <int-e> oh. right.
17:10:59 <int-e> I did forget about that.
17:11:09 <int-e> `ls /hackenv/lib
17:11:23 <int-e> hackeso?
17:11:34 <int-e> shachaf: does that apply here though? /lib is not in the repo, is it?
17:11:41 <moony> Somebody forgot to feed the mouse again
17:11:46 <int-e> so we just shouldn't trust the error message
17:11:52 <shachaf> It's not?
17:12:05 <shachaf> I thought everything in /hackenv is checked in except for tmp/ (which is in .hgignore).
17:12:23 <int-e> oh I guess it is
17:12:30 <int-e> then, sigh.
17:12:33 <b_jonas> hopefully nakilon has a backup for the interpreter, he didn't just develop it in /hackenv/tmp with no other copies, because that would be so last century
17:12:54 <nakilon> yeah it's just a copy from github
17:13:03 <shachaf> What a great trap.
17:13:14 <nakilon> is hackeso alive?
17:13:27 <b_jonas> `echo gpKsgvhcHI8y
17:13:30 <moony> It is, but the mouse went unfed
17:13:34 <int-e> not since that `ls ../tmp
17:13:38 <moony> someone get the cheese
17:13:50 <int-e> b_jonas: can you add a recognizable but rare string to those so that I can ignore them, please
17:13:52 <shachaf> It was also not responding to my queries a little before that.
17:14:09 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess I should make a command then
17:14:22 <b_jonas> or maybe ping is already there
17:14:41 <b_jonas> I'll check when HackEso reappears
17:15:16 <int-e> fizzie: is there anything about `ls ../tmp that would hang hackeso?
17:16:01 <nakilon> bot really dislikes my language
17:16:09 <nakilon> it deleted it and stopped talking
17:16:27 <jinn> i'm right here what are u on about?
17:16:39 <moony> Give it a minute and it’ll throw an out of cheese error. Nothing wrong with your language:)
17:16:44 <b_jonas> the web interface seems to be alive
17:17:09 <int-e> b_jonas: well, so is the other instance on freenode
17:17:23 <b_jonas> oh
17:17:39 <b_jonas> then it's just one of those cases where the IRC connection half-breaks
17:17:53 <nakilon> half?
17:18:02 <b_jonas> it can half-break in multiple ways
17:18:11 <b_jonas> if it just breaks completely, that's easy, the irc client would just reconnect
17:19:04 <nakilon> it's 10 minutes already, IRC had to drop him long ago
17:19:15 <b_jonas> but I've seen cases where the server pretended that it broke and gave a timeout message, and cases where the connection definitely broke but there was some bug in my bot why it wouldn't restart and I couldn never debug why that was, or it could break in just one of the two duplex directions
17:19:22 <b_jonas> or still be alive but with huge lag
17:19:45 <b_jonas> or appear to be alive but not respond to anything so you have to wait for a long timeout
17:20:04 <fizzie> int-e: Hmm. Nothing obvious, at least.
17:20:06 -!- dyeplexer has quit (*.net *.split).
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17:20:14 <moony> Oh
17:20:27 <int-e> network trouble, fine
17:20:30 <nakilon> those two bot instances should work like a cluster and be able to restart each other
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17:21:05 <int-e> `bot
17:21:06 <moony> `ping
17:21:07 <HackEso> bot? No such file or directory
17:21:07 <HackEso> pong
17:21:09 <nakilon> oh, where was it connected to? only he and some guy were splitted away
17:21:52 <fizzie> It connects to whatever irc.libera.chat happens to give it.
17:22:46 <fizzie> I've been keeping an eye on https://netsplit.de/servers/?net=Libera.Chat and the new network's been sprouting up servers like mushrooms in the rain. (Is that also an English idiom, or just a local one?)
17:23:33 <int-e> fizzie: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spring+up+like+mushrooms ...no rain
17:23:39 <nakilon> mushrooms after rain in Russian
17:24:06 <int-e> like mushrooms from the ground in german
17:24:53 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83147&oldid=83146 * Zero player rodent * (+493)
17:25:09 <fizzie> It's "sieniä sateella" in Finnish, and the adessive case (-lla) there doesn't really obviously translate to a specific English preposition, especially in that context.
17:25:19 <fizzie> But mushrooms and rain are both definitely in it.
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17:25:54 <int-e> well, you *are* close to russia
17:25:57 -!- dyeplexer has joined.
17:26:00 <moony> Hopefully they name their least reliable server Iron
17:26:03 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:26:27 <moony> Sturdy ‘til it’s not
17:26:44 <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean
17:27:02 <nakilon> I'm 15km away from Lenin's body
17:27:13 <int-e> nakilon: nordic countries
17:27:18 <int-e> nakilon: I was replying to fizzie
17:27:43 <nakilon> oh sry, have a highlight on "Russia" in client settings
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17:31:23 <nakilon> btw not sure how but it looks like my files aren't gone and were successfully moved there
17:32:06 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:33:57 <int-e> so they aren't under version control after all
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17:34:41 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/pong/pong "$@"/' /hackenv/bin/ping
17:34:42 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ echo pong "$@"
17:34:53 <fizzie> Weeeeird.
17:34:56 <int-e> I'm confused.
17:35:04 <fizzie> Is there some sort of a global ignore file somewhere for _gem directories or what?
17:35:06 <b_jonas> `ping jrFZt8j4_LHE # int-e: I'll try to remember to use ping instead of echo, but I'll probably forget
17:35:07 <HackEso> pong
17:35:18 <fizzie> Because that's the only thing that comes to mind that would explain it.
17:35:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: can't there be a local .hgignore file, or maybe hg reading gitignore files or something?
17:36:15 <fizzie> There is a local .hgignore file, but the only thing in it is ^tmp/
17:36:30 <int-e> `ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:30 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/lib | paste': No such file or directory
17:36:32 <int-e> `` ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6848
17:36:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but I mean a local one in the rasel package
17:37:35 <int-e> this won't end well
17:37:35 <b_jonas> ``` find /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem -ls # it seems like only the directories exist, nothing under them
17:37:36 <HackEso> ​ 1309820 4 drwxr-xr-x 4 1000 1000 4096 Feb 3 11:42 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem \ 1310481 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/lib \ 1309888 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/bin
17:37:42 <b_jonas> nakilon: ^
17:37:49 <int-e> ah, only files are tracked
17:37:54 <int-e> that makes sense
17:37:57 <b_jonas> oh!
17:38:12 <b_jonas> then we can sneakily store non-version-controlled data in directory structures
17:38:16 <int-e> or am I mixing up hg and git there
17:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's only directories.
17:39:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that's the case.
17:39:37 <moony> Anyone verified that this network’s IRP interpreter is functional?
17:39:44 <fizzie> And yes, I guess it's also a new way of gaming the system.
17:41:17 <int-e> nakilon: basically, every command is run twice, with a fresh checkout inbetween. so the first mv takes, but the second time around, the /tmp directory is gone and you get an error... and nothing gets committed
17:41:26 <int-e> I'm struggling to remember why.
17:41:33 <shachaf> Why what?
17:41:39 <moony> (I just did, IRP survived the move!)
17:41:49 <int-e> why there are two stages
17:42:03 <nakilon> what does "In another world:" mean in HackEso's response?
17:42:11 <shachaf> I think it runs each command twice because most commands are read-only, so it speculatively tries in read-only mode first.
17:42:19 <b_jonas> int-e: only commands that write anything to version-controlled get ran twice, and it's to be able to run multiple commands that don't write anything to version-controlled in parallel but serialize commands that do write there
17:42:36 <shachaf> I mean, in the mode where it doesn't lock the repository/serialize/whatever for changes, or something.
17:42:40 <int-e> b_jonas: concurrent execution, thanks. that was it
17:42:52 <fizzie> Yeah, it's got shared read locks and exclusive write locks.
17:43:07 <int-e> poor person's RW lock
17:43:08 <b_jonas> int-e: jevalbot does not have such locking, and if you run two commands that try to write state in parallel, then the output of one of them may be lost
17:43:12 <nakilon> nvm
17:43:46 <fizzie> "In another world" means roughly "outside /hackenv", meaning there's no web URL available to access that path.
17:44:08 <fizzie> It might also have some subtlety around /hackenv/tmp, which has a web window but no version history.
17:46:33 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83148&oldid=83147 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
17:46:55 <nakilon> fizzie my mistake was "/hackeso/" instead of "/hackenv/"
17:47:09 <b_jonas> I'm not used to "window" being used that way. it already has other technical meanings which is why we don't do so.
17:47:19 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+3311) Created page with "'''PaRappa''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is based on the rhythm game "PaRappa The Rapper". The code is meant to look like the gameplay. It is nearly identica..."
17:48:46 <esolangs> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83150&oldid=83023 * Zero player rodent * (+15)
17:52:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * E97m2813flz1a * New user account
17:54:24 <nakilon> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
17:54:25 <HackEso> Hello, World!
17:58:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83151&oldid=83140 * E97m2813flz1a * (+129) Introduce myself
17:59:46 <int-e> that nick is not inspiring confidence
18:00:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, I just couldn't come up with a better word on the spot. Web browser? No. Web endpoint, web interface? Maybe. Web view? Nah. Web expositor? Uh, well.
18:01:00 <nakilon> is it moony?
18:01:29 <moony> Oh no that’s probably MichaelRaskin
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18:03:10 <int-e> well whoever it is first has to figure out the instructions on the introduction page :P
18:03:30 <nakilon> from the language name and first words of description I imagined something different
18:03:58 <nakilon> smth like distributed computing over IRC clients
18:04:08 <moony> Nah just a silly joke lang
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18:05:26 <int-e> pft
18:07:34 <nakilon> there is this weird thing https://github.com/ruby/drb
18:07:58 <nakilon> you write code like if you are in the runtime of another process on another machine
18:09:37 <nakilon> the only time I saw it used was in bank
18:11:11 <keegan> that's fun
18:11:15 <nakilon> instead of making a server that would accept reports via JSON/POST or even their lovely SOAP, they made it a standard in their team...
18:13:28 <nakilon> more explanation here, but basically it's evaling https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.7.1/libdoc/drb/rdoc/DRb.html
18:17:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would say "web view", but I call it "web interafce" in the wiki article
18:19:39 <fizzie> The reason why I find "web view" jarring probably has to do with the fact that over in Android, there's a thing called a WebView, which is something else.
18:22:34 <esolangs> [[IRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83152&oldid=67566 * E97m2813flz1a * (+345) Describe the situation after Freenode takeover
18:29:35 -!- moony has changed nick to example.
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18:51:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RobynTiger * New user account
18:54:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83153&oldid=83151 * RobynTiger * (+161) /* Introductions */
18:58:19 <esolangs> [[User:RobynTiger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83154 * RobynTiger * (+151) Created page with "First-year Computer Science and Mathematics student :D (I'll add more interesting stuff here later, I guess xD) [https://github.com/robyntiger GitHub]"
19:02:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://libera.chat/chanreg doesn't mention a ## namespace prefix anywhere, so ## doesn't officially have the same meaning as on freenode. presumably there'll still be a lot of ## channels just to have the same name as on freenode, but that doesn't apply to us
19:03:12 <b_jonas> even if you don't register a project or community
19:03:55 <b_jonas> oh wait
19:04:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm wrong: https://libera.chat/policies does mention that prefix
19:04:10 <b_jonas> so it still applies
19:09:01 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:13:21 <int-e> b_jonas: current practice would allow us to just take #esoteric and we'll keep it unless somebody comes along with a better claim (which is of course a possibility... even an actual "other kind of" esoteric community)
19:14:10 <int-e> But fizzie picked ##esoteric and he was here first :) (#esoteric is currently "mine")
19:14:45 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we can take #esoteric
19:15:20 <int-e> I honestly don't care either way
19:15:43 <int-e> I'm fond of the "esoteric" in-joke
19:17:12 <b_jonas> oh! as for in-joke, if we figure out the final place, we should submit a patch to Canaima to direct people there
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19:25:17 <b_jonas> oh, and even "https://libera.chat/chanreg" mentions the ## prefix. it just says "two # characters", I was searching for /##/ and /double/
19:26:47 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83155&oldid=83090 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+313) Corrected an error in the resizing of the memory vector, introduced this scaling for other commands, and fixed an erroneous type declaration.
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19:41:08 <imode> what the hell is going on?
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19:45:21 <int-e> imode: what am I missing?
19:45:32 <imode> int-e: the above.
19:46:00 <int-e> ah, #libera is more impressive
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20:11:24 <serpent3416[m|gr> /)))))))))
20:11:27 <serpent3416[m|gr> //) __ __\
20:11:30 <serpent3416[m|gr> C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\
20:11:36 <serpent3416[m|gr> \ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
20:11:39 <serpent3416[m|gr> _/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
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20:12:35 <Taneb> Was... was that spammer lost
20:12:49 <cd> Very
20:13:00 <cd> just a kiddie with a script
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20:38:21 <nakilon> Liberia?
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20:39:31 <int-e> nakilon: that pun is the only good thing about that spam
20:41:51 <fizzie> Libertalia, that pirate place.
20:42:30 <fizzie> (All I know about it is watching someone else's playthrough of that one game.)
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20:53:29 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83156&oldid=83143 * Batata * (+36)
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20:54:26 <myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks
20:54:48 <myname> is this some sort of fud campaign?
20:54:57 <imode> is the sentiment positive or negative.
20:55:10 <imode> remember, you're up against someone who actively hates everybody here.
20:56:08 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83157&oldid=83156 * Batata * (+78)
20:56:58 <nakilon> so I did another attempt to figure put what it is about the Libera
20:57:26 <arseniiv_> strange to hear nightingales combined with frogs from the street
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20:57:32 <nakilon> and the only thing I see is that the new owner just put ads of his another company on freenode website
20:58:06 <nakilon> but I don't understand how it's a reason for people to switch to another network
20:59:19 <arseniiv> I think it wasn’t obvious what’s planned for freenode’s fate, and it isn’t?
21:01:03 <nakilon> is there anything obvious about fate of anything?
21:01:03 <arseniiv> so they might put just ads or the might do something very drastic, or would be further down the road but not right now, and who would know
21:01:16 <arseniiv> I mean, not the fate in abstract, but the plain in their head
21:01:17 <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? if people "didn't see 'it' coming" then it wasn't obvious in the first place
21:01:19 <arseniiv> plan*
21:01:36 <myname> nakilon: they didn't switch to another network if you define the network by the people and principles behind it rather than the name
21:02:03 <imode> nakilon: there was a hostile take-over of freenode by a dude calling himself the crown prince of korea, with plans to turn IRC into discord and monetize it.
21:02:08 <imode> what more info you need fam.
21:02:19 <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans?
21:02:30 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? => I’d think, well, before this entire thing started nobody knew it would
21:02:34 <myname> if there is, there already was in the "old" freenode
21:02:46 <imode> because libera wouldn't exist if the staff agreed with andrew's vision?
21:02:51 <imode> the fuck is your argument.
21:03:04 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans? => I personally don’t!
21:03:25 <nakilon> imode I don't see about Korea and Discord in Wikipedia's article about Freenode
21:03:34 <imode> nakilon: you haven't been following the posts, then.
21:03:42 <arseniiv> I’m going with my limited instincts for a while
21:03:55 <imode> which is fair, this is a messy situation.
21:04:00 <nakilon> arseniiv same today "nobody knows it would" here
21:04:14 <arseniiv> if they’ll be wrong, well, so be it, I’m bad with politics and with being informed unfortunately
21:04:33 <arseniiv> (they I mean my instincts)
21:04:39 <nakilon> I only see people being scared by their own fantasies about "what can happen"
21:04:47 <myname> people aren't on freenode because it's named freenode but rather because of the people behind it. if the people behind it start getting legal threats and collectively decide to make something new, it's probably for a reason
21:04:51 <arseniiv> (figurative instincts of course, as humans don’t have biological ones)
21:05:10 <imode> nakilon: uh, same could be said of you, on this network.
21:05:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur)
21:05:39 <imode> fyi, in case you can't click hyperlinks on freenode's page.
21:05:45 <myname> i don't care "what can happen" in freenode, i don't want to be on a network that is overtaken against the will of the community
21:05:52 <myname> even if everything would stay the same
21:08:06 <nakilon> how is someone's "prince of Korea" status makes Freenode worse place?
21:08:35 <nakilon> is there something bad about Korea?
21:09:04 <nakilon> how does that makes the #esoteric channel on Freenode less functional or something?
21:09:52 <imode> I'm going to be nice and assume you're not trolling, it's not that. it's that someone came in, against the wishes of the community at large, threatened legal action against the existing staff unless they handed over the keys to freenode at large, threatened to drown them in lawyers and legal fees until they backed off property that wasn't his...
21:10:14 <myname> nakilon: there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently
21:10:16 <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects.
21:10:20 <imode> to stay on the network.
21:10:44 <imode> and is now trying to monetize the thing because he bought a "community" of active individuals that he can now break apart while he turns freenode into a glorified investment vehicle.
21:10:48 <imode> among other problems.
21:10:56 <arseniiv> <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects. => wow :(
21:11:14 <imode> there's a reason why sponsors are pulling hardware, why FOSS projects are moving off the network, and why this is overall spreading.
21:11:40 <myname> i would be kinda interested in how many active channels will stay on freenode
21:11:51 <myname> i'd assume those are next to none
21:12:28 <imode> so if you're _genuinely uninformed_ and not just trolling, there's the answer in a nutshell. there are in-depth threads about it on HN, there are plenty of people that'll answer you in #libera or #libera-dev around the specifics.
21:13:08 <arseniiv> I’d assume nakilon is not trolling :)
21:13:28 <imode> it's really just confusing as hell.
21:13:51 <arseniiv> we live in invisible^W confusing times
21:14:18 <myname> i don't think the relevant part is that confusing
21:14:36 <myname> violent overtake of network. old staff made new network. people like old staff. people move.
21:15:06 <nakilon> I don't know old staff
21:15:31 <nakilon> why would I even know them
21:15:52 <imode> why are you here?
21:16:11 <nakilon> this is #esoteric
21:16:21 <myname> sure, but even if you don't know them, doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?
21:16:27 <nakilon> not #channel_of_freenode_staff
21:16:35 <imode> great. but why on this network. if you don't agree with the network, if you don't see a purpose behind it, stay on freenode.
21:17:17 <nakilon> are you gatekeeping me or what?
21:17:31 <myname> i don't get your point
21:17:32 <imode> good toll.
21:17:36 <imode> troll, rather.
21:17:45 <myname> yeah
21:17:51 <nakilon> you are calling me troll already like 6 times
21:17:53 <arseniiv> I’d presuppose the staff should have being doing things more or less right as there weren’t freenode breakups before this event
21:17:55 <imode> have fun on the ignore list.
21:17:59 <nakilon> you are aggressive
21:18:09 <nakilon> you aredefinitely not the people I'm here for
21:18:25 <nakilon> lol, inadequate
21:18:25 <river> nakilon this is IRC!
21:19:06 <myname> i still have no idea what your point even is
21:19:29 <imode> just ignore them, they're here to siphon attention, not actually discuss anything.
21:19:41 <arseniiv> let’s not be harsh to each other if it’s possible, I left a forum recently because it was a hard place and it still bubbles up in my memory each day
21:20:06 <nakilon> this is some people have too much time wasted of debating and lurking about staff's personal life and finances, enough much to become spontaneously angry on other users in chat who are just asking questions
21:20:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Batata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83158 * Batata * (+1) Created page with "e"
21:20:24 <myname> that has nothing to do with the staff as persons
21:20:29 <imode> arseniiv: I doubt the user in question is actually a part of this community.
21:20:35 <imode> and is just here to stir up shit.
21:20:40 <myname> this has everything to do with a violent takeover. nothing more, nothing less
21:20:49 <river> VIOLENCE!!!!
21:20:50 <myname> i don't support violent takeovers
21:20:57 <river> disrespect your SURROUNDINGS!
21:21:31 <imode> ADTR eh
21:21:41 <nakilon> lol this is retarded
21:21:50 <myname> how so?
21:22:13 <nakilon> dude keeps shitting on me for no reason
21:22:18 <nakilon> such a kid
21:22:24 <arseniiv> I’d prefer to think sometimes we are really confused about this or that or some details but this doesn’t necessarily come through text true; miscommunication happens and it happens often enough. Yep no one should be infinitely trusting, as genuine trolling is a thing, but
21:22:41 <arseniiv> but whatever, who I am to mediate anything
21:22:43 <myname> no, because you keep talking bullshit and don't act on the given points
21:22:49 <nakilon> "I doubt he's a part of the community" -- ahahah
21:22:57 <nakilon> I'm definitely not the part of his community
21:23:01 <nakilon> if it's about beibng such retard
21:23:08 <imode> considering the number of "why does this network exist you all are retards" people that have flooded libera, yeah, I'm going to assume malicious intent.
21:24:16 <nakilon> ragekid
21:25:14 <myname> as i said, you still don't respond to any argument
21:25:28 <myname> i cannot assume you are serious
21:26:52 <nakilon> I see no arguments
21:27:37 <nakilon> neither answers on my questions about how the legal problems between owners have any effect on the channels
21:28:34 <arseniiv> I’d think people generally want to feel safe and they have a bit of a precedent the old freenode staff didn’t abuse their power?
21:28:55 <arseniiv> and then they are forced away, so, well…
21:29:50 <arseniiv> why isn’t it an argument, at least one in a cumulative heap of arguments if it’s not enough by its own
21:30:13 <myname> this network exists because of a takeover of the old network. period.
21:30:51 <imode> why are you still entertaining this lmao.
21:30:54 <imode> just /ignore and move on.
21:30:59 <imode> eh, not my business.
21:31:59 <nakilon> "there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently" -- this is just funny, considering how the world either ignored or even supported the neonazi revolution in my country that lead to 9000 civilian deaths and thousands of deaths among people who were forced to do the genocide
21:32:35 <arseniiv> though I’d say maybe discussing this kind of arguments isn’t really on topic in this channel. It’s either not that esoteric and maybe it would be more productive to discuss these matters with other people
21:32:59 <myname> and you know what? the majority of humans didn't support the nazis, that'. why they lost
21:33:52 <myname> sure, i will do something more productive, like sleeping
21:36:55 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83159&oldid=83157 * Batata * (+88)
21:37:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83160&oldid=83159 * Batata * (+1)
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22:10:56 <fizzie> Meta-discussion about where #esoteric should be is probably on-topic, and the larger questions insofar as they relate to that, but anything beyond that probably not so much.
22:11:34 <fizzie> Personally I'm on this side because while I don't know the people who left particularly well (I think we have just the one former freenode staff member as a channel regular?), I've got a generally positive opinion of them collectively, and feel like as the people who've actually kept things running, they have a better claim to this being the "same network" we've been on so far; and
22:11:40 <fizzie> superficially-independent third-party accounts have on average agreed that the new management has behaved at least a little sucky.
22:11:53 <fizzie> I don't expect the disagreement will necessarily have an impact on how we *could* use either network (unless longer-term one or the other just withers away, meaning less chance of random passers-by), but that just means from that perspective the choice of a network is arbitrary, so there's no particular reason to stay either. And I sorta-like this notion of having a registration scheme for communities,
22:11:59 <fizzie> not just projects.
22:12:44 <fizzie> Now, getting back on track, I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge between the esolangs/esowiki bots. If I turn it on, they'd each copy over every PRIVMSG (except their own, of course), prefix it with "<nick> " and send it on the other side. No splitting of long messages, no filtering, no other message types, no bells, no whistles. Is that a good idea or not? What would catch on fire
22:12:50 <fizzie> first?
22:16:28 <int-e> the first thing would probably be the very precise line length arithmetic in hackeso :P
22:17:50 <b_jonas> "<myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks" => it did work, because #libera is full of spam where people are complaining about spam on other networks
22:18:05 <Taneb> I'm worried it means that if there starts being spam it'll get propagated and the bot might get klines
22:18:22 <int-e> anyway, the channel is publicly logged anyway, so I don't think a bridge causes any harm unless there's excessive noise.
22:18:32 <imode> one wonders if it's a smear campaign. pretty easy to spam about a network, and then drive people to complain about the spam of the network.
22:18:47 <imode> where nobody on that network is actually saying anything outside of libera.
22:19:07 <int-e> imode: the bots are treated as a smear campaign by the libera staff for sure
22:20:44 <int-e> officially at least, I'm sure if any tangible evidence to the contrary turns up nobody will be terribly surprised, just disappointed
22:21:30 <int-e> And... if it's a smear campaign, well, such lingering doubts mean it's working.
22:22:56 <b_jonas> "<myname> […] doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?" => perhaps it would if they hadn't posted messages encouraging people to unregister from freenode's nickserv
22:23:47 <int-e> wow, so much faith in the law
22:24:00 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess the spam forwarding is a potential issue.
22:24:26 <fizzie> Shouldn't there be like a Section 230 immunity for network bridges? ;)
22:24:44 <fizzie> But I guess An Algorithm probably wouldn't care about that.
22:25:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think we have two former freenode staff members as regulars: FireFly and mniip
22:25:55 <int-e> I know too little about The Algorithms used by Freenode/Libera. I thought it was mostly Sigyn/ozone listening in on select channels
22:26:03 <int-e> plus the obvious rate limiting
22:27:08 <fizzie> I don't know any details either, but I imagine they have some pattern-matching somewhere for dealing with those private-message spam campaigns. Unless people just don't have the attention span and that's why they always fizzle out.
22:27:36 <int-e> "litharge" will break my fingers (that's the eir equivalent)
22:27:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: the bridge is probably a good idea but only if you add an easy way to opt out of it so that other bridges can break loops. I suggest making an auxiliary channel and anyone who is joined the bridge won't copy their messages. or something. and figure out what to do with fungot so it doesn't answer twice.
22:28:08 <b_jonas> Taneb has a good point about propagated spam
22:28:09 <int-e> other bridges?!
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22:28:38 <fizzie> If there's just one instance of fungot, it shouldn't answer twice, I guess.
22:28:59 <b_jonas> might be better to ask libera staff and freenode staff
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22:29:12 <int-e> I hear you like tree-shaped networks so we added our own tree-shaped network inside IRC's tree-shaped networks
22:29:15 <ProofTechnique> Oh, I'm so glad ##esoteric is here
22:29:41 <imode> welcome, ProofTechnique.
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22:30:00 <int-e> I don't think having more than one bridge is reasonable.
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22:30:42 <fizzie> int-e: But think about having the chance to make an adaptive spanning tree protocol thing!
22:31:01 <int-e> fizzie: I'm thinking about my own cognitive capacity
22:31:09 <int-e> and how much I'm willing to exert it for IRC
22:31:54 <b_jonas> int-e: there's a channel with a bridge from at least three different chat things, plus a matrix bridge separate from each other. unless you want to make and maintain your bridge to support every newly popping up fashionable thing that you want to bridge, you should allow for more than one bridge.
22:32:14 <int-e> I guess I can always ignore the bridge but that will result in its very own surreal confusion as discussions grow holes.
22:32:40 <b_jonas> also multiple bridges can offer redundancy for when the server of one bridge is down, though they need their own protocol for that so they rarely copy the same message
22:32:55 <ProofTechnique> brb, building a bouncer that posts each message over a different bridge
22:32:56 <int-e> b_jonas: if that's seriously where we're headed then I don't want any bridge at all.
22:32:59 <b_jonas> plus multiple bridges is the #esoteric thing to do
22:33:04 <nakilon> "I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge" -- you know what picture is an illustration on Wikipedia's article "kludge"? the bridge! )
22:34:05 <ProofTechnique> The #esoteric thing would be a Gopher bridge
22:34:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: will it be called HackEcho? because I thought of that but it's a stupid name and I think it shouldn't be called that
22:34:06 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83161&oldid=83160 * Batata * (+37)
22:34:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: As it stands it'd just use the same connections as the wiki recent changes feeds.
22:34:53 <fizzie> I don't know if esolangs/esowiki is a great name either, but still.
22:35:11 <nakilon> 01:35:05 -NickServ- pipe is not registered.
22:52:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: also don't listen to me, a bridge is probalby a terrible idea
22:58:03 <fizzie> Hey, Wikimedia folks seem to think it makes sense: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Migrating_to_Libera_Chat#Bridging_channels
22:59:35 <b_jonas> some of them at least
23:03:39 <b_jonas> this will probably be decided per-channel, because on channels with few active mods it will copy the spam
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23:39:31 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how many languages have an `else` branch for a loop statement, executed if the loop body never runs.
23:39:47 <fizzie> I think the Jinja template system has one of those, but it's not exactly a language.
23:40:33 <fizzie> Would allow you to do things like `for (auto item : some_list) add(item); else oh_no_its_empty();`
23:41:24 <fizzie> I guess it's not *that* far from `if (some_list.empty()) oh_no_its_empty(); else for (auto item : some_list) add(item);` though.
23:41:25 <int-e> I'm associating that with Python, somehow.
23:42:10 <int-e> except that it does something completely different, so never mind
23:43:30 <int-e> [Python] "The else block just after for/while is executed only when the loop is NOT terminated by a break statement."
23:44:20 <fizzie> Heh, I wouldn't have expected *that*.
23:44:42 <fizzie> How's that an "else"? Well, I guess it doesn't need to make sense to me.
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23:44:57 <int-e> fizzie: it's an else for the loop condition check
23:44:59 <int-e> it's weird.
23:46:15 <int-e> if you break a loop, the condition will never have been false
23:47:26 <fizzie> R..ight, I guess.
23:47:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: the intuition is that if you write a search loop with a for-each head to iterate over something and the body breaks early when it finds the first suitable item, the else block is ran if the item is not found
23:47:54 <b_jonas> calling it "else" makes sense in that case
23:48:01 <fizzie> That's true too.
23:48:06 <int-e> "intuition"
23:48:12 <b_jonas> and python has iterator for loops
23:48:29 <int-e> The intuition is that if you do the obvious purely formal construction to translate a loop, that will happen.
23:48:32 <b_jonas> that said, I never use for-else or while-else
23:48:58 <fizzie> [Jinja] "If no iteration took place because the sequence was empty or the filtering removed all the items from the sequence, you can render a default block by using else: <...> Note that, in Python, else blocks are executed whenever the corresponding loop did not break. Since Jinja loops cannot break anyway, a slightly different behavior of the else keyword was chosen."
23:49:34 <fizzie> Maybe a more common scenario for templates.
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23:49:41 <fizzie> (Think "your basket is empty" or whatnot.)
23:52:18 <b_jonas> and I think I associate python for-else with the kind of low status stackoverflow copy-paste code monkey who comes to IRC to ask questions for how to do some task with iterator transformers or "in one line" but can't write a trivial while loop to do the same task
23:52:40 <b_jonas> I know it's a stereotype
23:52:49 <b_jonas> but it's a stereotype I have strong
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