2021-05-20: 00:02:20 [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83099&oldid=83049 * AndrewBayly * (-3751) /* Main */ 00:02:46 [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83100&oldid=83099 * AndrewBayly * (+1) /* Main */ 00:03:45 Oh, right, actually the UTC midnight was just now. Forgot about BST. 00:04:13 oh... I didn't pay attention to that, yes 00:04:41 ozone is fighting it out with chanserv, now there's a sight 00:07:47 Weird. The version of the bot I built on buster segfaults, but the one built on my daily-driver desktop (sid) doesn't. 00:07:55 I built it with Bazel, that's not supposed to happen. ;) 00:08:15 At least it's reproducible, so hopefully I can figure it out. 00:08:26 "that was not supposed to happen" is a great candidate for famous last words 00:10:11 -!- DHeadshot_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:47 It dies in std::thread::detach(). The system's almost entirely a single-threaded event loop, but there's one thread spawned to handle making blocking getaddrinfo calls, because I thought bundling an external DNS resolver like c-ares would be overkill. 00:14:04 -!- moony has changed nick to example. 00:15:13 https://0x0.st/-eHB.txt looks p. mysterious. What's that `call 0x0` doing there? 00:16:30 [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83101 * Icecream17 * (+512) Created page with "'''Icecream17/Arbitrary''' is ridiculous The following is subject to change {| class="wikitable" |+ Static programs |- ! Bits !! Hexadecimal source code !! What the source c..." 00:16:50 -!- example has changed nick to nickname. 00:17:06 -!- nickname has changed nick to example. 00:20:11 The context for the call is `std::thread(, ).detach();`, which I at least naively thought would just mean "start an independent thread running that function". 00:20:23 -!- chibi has joined. 00:20:26 ohayo. 00:22:26 Oh, Libera does ## instead of #? 00:22:45 By my interpretation, we *should* have been ##esoteric on freenode as well. 00:23:09 yeah, Freenode had a bunch of channels grandfathered into single-# names 00:23:22 although you could argue that #esoteric was the official channel of the open source esolang wiki 00:23:33 just like how #trains is the official channel of trainbot 00:24:04 keegan: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future has some thoughts in that direction 00:24:10 I seem to recall someone kind of hinted we should think about migrating to ##esoteric on freenode, but we never bothered. 00:24:35 On the Libera policies page, I saw there's this new category of "community channels", between project channels and informal channels. 00:24:48 fizzie: no, that's what we say the official policy is because there's a rare case when people when squat a #-channel and staff takes it over for the project with the relevant name for searchability, and we want to have something to back it up. they don't actually mind #-channels when they don't cause trouble like that, but they can't say that officially. 00:25:17 any long-established #-channel that doesn't steal namespace is fine 00:25:37 As far as Libera goes, I think a "community channel" would be the reasonable designation for this one as the official community channel of esolangs.org, but `#esolangs` would IMO be a more reasonable name than `#esoteric`. 00:25:40 b_jonas: I think they care when they have visibility, like #math which was basically forced to become ##math 00:25:41 (Despite the history.) 00:25:57 yea, #esolangs would make more sense at this point 00:26:06 int-e: yes, #math is stealing prime namespace, it's a channel name that people will type in even without outside references 00:26:15 #esoteric, yeah, is probably small enough nobody cares. Also the attitude has probably shifted quite a bit over the years. 00:26:32 and it's a big channel with occasional drama 00:26:56 ISRT that also happened to ##java, which makes sense, because it's both obvious and having it as #java implies it's associated with whoever owns Java at the moment (Oracle?). 00:27:10 #esoteric isn't. a few people from the other type of esoterica did find their way in, and some of them were probably genuine rather than sockpuppets trying to make fun of the welcome message 00:27:25 b_jonas: I really think #math became ##math mainly to set an example. Any project claiming that name would have to deal with people who wanted to just discuss (talk *about*) math. 00:27:48 pls don't set me. (lemme change my nick back) 00:27:54 -!- example has changed nick to moony. 00:28:57 is there any kind of namespace continuity implied? 00:29:04 I mean from freenode to libera 00:29:10 or is it considered new domain? 00:29:16 uh, new domain afaik 00:31:37 In other news, IDGI. When I build it on that other system, the binary contains https://0x0.st/-eHS.txt as the implementation of std::thread::detach -- when I build it on this one, it just gets a PLT entry referring to . 00:33:35 so the dynamic linker messes up? 00:34:00 ..wtf is that google thing doing in there 00:34:22 I think that's just a random symbol that happened to end up associated with address 0 for whatever reason. 00:35:28 right, makes sense, sort of 00:35:49 But I don't know how it manages to get a "call 0" in there. Maybe I'll need to look at some intermediate files. 00:37:40 Oh, there *is* a difference in the BUILD files: the working one has commented out features = ["fully_static_link"]. 00:37:54 That sounds odd enough that it's probably what's screwing it up. 00:38:27 Though I've no recollection of why that's there in the first place. 00:41:36 Let's give it a whirl. 00:41:48 -!- esolangs has joined. 00:42:05 fizzie: Is #java a place for coffee discussions? 00:42:37 After two years or so of punting it until later, I can finally produce a new binary that works. (Well, assuming it does.) 00:44:30 chibi: is Java coffee actually such a thing? because I'm quite sure I hadn't heard about that until the Java language people started to spread that origin story. I think they invented that to have a cool explanation for their name like Python. 00:45:25 Java the Indonesian island definitely predates Java the programming language, and is associated with coffee. 00:45:52 Wouldn't know any of the details, though, not being a coffee-ist. 00:46:27 Have I mentioned our team's hybrid coffee/tea break is called a "toffee break", but never has any toffee involved? 00:46:37 the indonesian island does, yes 00:46:55 fizzie: that's sad 00:46:59 Apparently so, though my knowledge of coffee extends to how to brew good coffee in a pot and that's about it 00:47:07 even its name 00:48:12 I've never really had toffee, what's it taste like? 00:49:13 fizzie: that 0x0 may be __gthrw_pthread_create, which is a /weak/ reference to pthread_create... which might stay 0 if you "forget" to link in pthreads? 00:49:33 s/create/detach/g 00:49:38 It's a bit like fudge and caramel. 00:50:23 (I'm looking at /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/c++/10/bits/gthr-default.h) 00:50:59 int-e: Yeah, I think it must've been something about that fully_static_link thing, which I've reconstructed to having been an attempt to produce a binary that I could runs while I didn't have a system with exactly-matching library versions as the target machine big enough to run the build. 00:51:05 Guessing it just wasn't pthreads-compatible. 00:52:04 Ooh, maybe that'd be nice to pair with some black coffee 00:52:37 https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/42057 sounds potentially related. 00:55:07 -!- Wezl has joined. 01:13:01 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CiaaiK * New user account 01:45:36 -!- reader445 has joined. 01:55:15 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:00:00 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:12:44 [[Finites at Fredy's]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83102 * Salpynx * (+4732) This was _supposed_ to be a parody, but has become more of an uninspiring, but accurate, review. "Fair use" either way. 02:28:35 -!- chibi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:32:14 -!- chibi has joined. 03:52:23 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83103&oldid=82807 * New Army * (-63) The link doesn't seem to be dead. 03:54:24 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83104&oldid=83098 * New Army * (+187) /* LifeWiki links */ 04:20:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:42:32 -!- reader445 has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 04:45:51 -!- ski_ has joined. 05:15:52 hi let this day be nice to everyone! 05:19:40 I've made toffee before. 05:19:51 Confectionery is neatomatic 4,000. 05:33:12 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski. 06:09:45 -!- jinn has joined. 06:09:57 hello is this the compilier design channel from freenode? 06:10:18 -!- jinn has left. 06:10:41 -!- chibi has quit (*.net *.split). 06:10:42 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split). 06:10:42 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 06:13:08 -!- lambdabot has joined. 06:15:49 -!- chibi has joined. 06:19:17 -!- esolangs has joined. 06:19:17 -!- Melvar has joined. 06:20:49 -!- chibi has joined. 06:26:31 -!- jinn has joined. 06:26:37 8-) oh 07:12:28 -!- dbohdan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:12:38 -!- iovoid has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:12:44 -!- dbohdan has joined. 07:13:25 -!- dbohdan has quit (Changing host). 07:13:25 -!- dbohdan has joined. 07:14:35 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:15:06 -!- lambdabot has joined. 07:16:32 -!- iovoid has joined. 08:29:16 [[Spider solitaire]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83105&oldid=83032 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+31) 08:45:49 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83106&oldid=83104 * Int-e * (+189) /* LifeWiki links */ 09:22:26 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83107&oldid=83106 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+237) /* LifeWiki links */ 11:26:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:36:09 Actually, we've never had +t (or problem with "unauthorized" topic changes either), that was just a default setting. Let's get rid of that. 11:36:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 11:36:16 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t. 11:36:20 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o FireFly. 11:36:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 11:36:29 (Tab completion strikes again.) 11:45:17 haha 11:45:31 Now I'm extra deopped 11:46:58 > "euZWcKvS2ejX" 11:46:59 "euZWcKvS2ejX" 11:54:18 Oh, -t is allowed? It failed in #esoteric yesterday, somehow... 11:59:05 You need to "chanserv set #chan mlock" from the default (+nt-lk) to something that either doesn't mention t, or has -t. I just set it to +n-lk. 12:06:09 Trying to manage all these channels in one client is a bit of a headache. Only one of my lurking set (#perl) has entirely moved. A couple others just set up forks. 12:13:49 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83108&oldid=83067 * Batata * (-9) 12:14:51 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83109&oldid=83108 * Batata * (+12) 12:15:19 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83110&oldid=83109 * Batata * (-3) 12:16:51 fizzie: did I mention that I set up a separate shell account for tracking Libera channels :P 12:24:31 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83111&oldid=83110 * Batata * (+43) 12:25:55 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83112&oldid=83111 * Batata * (+14) 12:26:03 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83113&oldid=83112 * Batata * (-2) 12:41:09 elliot and ion are u here in the new channel? 12:42:21 jinn: try /who ##esoteric 12:44:03 or names 13:08:46 -!- Wezl has joined. 13:19:53 -!- Trieste has joined. 13:20:18 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)). 13:21:15 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:21:18 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 13:23:00 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:25:00 -!- Wezl has joined. 13:33:53 -!- moony5 has joined. 13:34:13 -!- moony5 has changed nick to moony. 13:34:50 -!- iovoid has joined. 13:40:31 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 13:56:36 -!- moony has changed nick to cd. 14:14:37 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 14:14:37 -!- Wezl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:19:53 -!- u0_a61 has changed nick to Wezl. 14:41:04 -!- cd has changed nick to moony. 14:50:33 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 14:50:42 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 14:53:16 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)). 15:04:43 -!- moony has joined. 15:05:09 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 15:05:25 -!- iovoid has joined. 15:30:52 -!- imode has joined. 15:39:04 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83114&oldid=83107 * Taneb * (+360) 15:41:15 -!- moony has changed nick to moon. 15:47:02 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 15:47:17 -!- imode has joined. 15:48:07 -!- river has joined. 15:48:10 ok 15:48:20 -!- moon has changed nick to Guest17817. 15:48:30 can we get an esoteric cloak? 15:48:35 goodbye, freenode, hello libera. 15:49:43 -!- Guest17817 has changed nick to moony. 15:55:42 river: You'd need to find a Libera staffer who appreciates the joke. 15:56:08 Sad as it is, fizzies boring esolang community idea is more likely to fly. 15:56:38 (or esolangs, whatever) 15:57:28 noooooo 15:57:50 otoh who needs cloaks :P 15:58:14 people without cool domain names 16:06:46 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:08:40 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 16:14:48 Better solution 16:14:53 get a cool domain name 16:18:01 -!- imode has changed nick to FuckAndrewLee. 16:18:48 -!- FuckAndrewLee has changed nick to AndrewLee. 16:18:52 -!- AndrewLee has changed nick to imode. 16:19:14 -!- moony has changed nick to cd. 16:33:25 int-e: As a compromise solution, let's register a community with the boring name ("esolangs"), but include `#esoteric` in the list of claimed channel names, on the basis of historical precedent and discoverability. 16:33:46 In either case, I'd kind of give it a bit of time first to see how this Libera thing evolves, before starting a discussion with staffers. I feel like they might have better things to do at the moment, anyway. 16:35:23 fizzie: I would mention that it's easier to register a channel and community on OFTC 16:36:40 or more like, you don't have to register communities 16:36:43 you can just register a channel 16:36:47 mind you, that works on freenode too 16:37:06 the whole group thing is just an official path to resolve namespace conflicts in single-flat-land 16:37:37 OFTC doesn't bother with that 16:39:48 Yeah, I know; I don't think the difficulty is an issue, though. And I think there's something nice about having a claim that's not just "we were here first", though I don't have a rational reason for that feeling. 16:49:43 -!- jix has joined. 17:13:14 ok 17:13:15 -!- cd has changed nick to moony. 17:14:14 fizzie: does fungot have an command that a bot can use to request that fungot ignore it? 17:15:05 or maybe a channel that the bot can join to request this? 17:16:54 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 17:16:54 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 17:17:16 Unfortunately not. There's a single regular expression (matched against the message prefix) that defines the ignore list. 17:17:37 Not even persisted, I just re-apply it every time I restart it. 17:17:46 By grepping in my logs if it's fallen off the backscroll. 17:17:52 IOW, a highly productionized setup. 17:34:42 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 17:48:57 -!- nakilon has joined. 17:51:05 * nakilon 👀 18:30:36 -!- imode has changed nick to FuckAndrewLee. 18:33:16 -!- FuckAndrewLee has changed nick to imode. 18:45:44 fizzie: hmm... I might have to replace his invocation keyword then 18:46:45 or just convince you to change that regex 18:46:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:47:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:49:04 finally fixing lambdabot? 18:50:50 -!- velik has joined. 19:19:31 I'm happy to change that regex whenever. If it was written in a more reasonable language, I could also consider adding a feature to request being ignored, but as it stands it might be quite long before I'd get to that. 19:19:47 I should probably clean up that list anyway, it's got a lot of legacy cruft. It's currently: 19:19:50 ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esowiki|bfbot|egelbot)! 19:40:52 -!- imode has changed nick to kronk. 19:54:53 hah otherbot 20:06:11 -!- kronk has changed nick to imode. 20:48:09 the table on https://libera.chat/guides/extbans makes my eyes hurt a bit 20:48:35 (alternating between grey on white and white on grey for code spans) 20:52:11 Hmm, it's all light-on-dark for me, just slightly different shades. But I've got a prefer-dark thing going on, maybe it styles for that. 21:02:50 -!- eight has joined. 21:05:58 https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alternate.png 21:06:10 oh, dark theme, hmm 21:13:15 Well, it's not *that* dissimilar in the dark theme either. https://zem.fi/tmp/extbans.png 21:13:45 Got the same thing going where the code span color is the same as the background of the *other* row. 21:16:50 I get the idea and the logic but my brain hurts ;) 21:17:46 I've just dropped my account with freenode nickserv and removed the config from my bouncer. Feels like an end of an era 21:19:52 -!- eight has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:23:51 -!- mrkajetanp has joined. 21:37:15 shachaf: all of a sudden found your answer on SO about Fix, Mu and Nu in recursion-schemes. Thanks for writing it, clarified a great deal 21:37:29 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:40:44 -!- shikhin has joined. 21:41:34 hm is it obvious at first sight if ÎŒx. x + x and ÎŒx. ÎŒy. x + y are (naturally) isomorphic? Oh, nvm they are both empty 21:41:58 (in the strict sense of course) 21:44:48 arseniiv: you could use ux. 1+x+x and uxy. 1+x+y instead 21:44:59 as for the general situation
 The allows ⊄ and x1 + x2 inductively, but as ÎŒy. x + y allows only 21:45:02 oops 21:45:07 early posted 21:47:18 as for the general situation
 The type A ≡ ÎŒx. x + x allows ⊄ and x1 + x2 for x1, x2 :: A inductively, but B ≡ ÎŒy. x + y allows only ⊄ and c + y for y :: B so for example (⊄ + ⊄) + ⊄ :: A and not :: B. Hehehe 21:49:41 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83115&oldid=83114 * Fizzie * (+1128) /* Freenode and the future */ Thoughts about networks. 21:50:21 int-e: yep that’s an interesting elaboration on 1 + x which is precisely the direction I looked in. Now we have naturals with two successor kinds in the first case (and in case of conaturals, 2^N infinities) and in the second case
 21:51:22 arseniiv: x is free in B, I'm confused 21:51:40 ow I mis-edited it 21:52:32 I planned to write first about ÎŒy. x + y which I did but then I forgot I hadn’t written about the full thing 21:53:40 (but still (⊄ + ⊄) + ⊄ shouldn’t inhabit ÎŒxy. x + y, if I’m correct) 21:55:48 okay, ÎŒxy. 1 + x + y is of course just ÎŒx. N + x and that should give us
 yep, again less possibilities: first we use just successors of the first kind and then just those other ones, no intermixing, so not naturally isomorphic with ÎŒx. 1 + x + x 21:56:08 I wonder if these two types occur somewhere in practice 21:58:27 for example conaturals are great for timeout values (like how many small-step evaluations we are allowed to take), even if encoded in a naĂŻve way. That has some charm IMO 22:00:22 also one could try something with 1 + (x, y) or (1 + x, 1 + y) 22:00:39 arseniiv: let X = ÎŒx y. x + y, Y = ÎŒy. X + y; ⊄ inhabits X and Y, so ⊄ + ⊄ inhabits X, so (⊄ + ⊄) + ⊄ inhabits X. 22:03:51 int-e: oh 22:04:52 wait, that Y is something completely different 22:05:15 Basically thinking of it as data A = A A B; data B = B A B vs. data C = C C C 22:05:50 though would we even get to ÎŒx. x + x by applying this ΛX.Y repeatedly to X? 22:06:41 int-e: but those datas are mutually recursive whereas X, Y aren’t 22:07:24 arseniiv: X already does the full mutual recursion. Y just occurs in unfolding the outer fixed point. 22:09:34 ah yes, yes 22:09:53 ÎŒx y. x + y = ⊄ | Y, Y = ⊄ | X + Y 22:10:05 so I guess my datatypes aren't reflecting this accurately 22:11:04 And there are two ways to get a bottom from ÎŒx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck. 22:11:23 ÎŒx y. 1 + x + y doesn't have that issue 22:12:36 And there are two ways to get a bottom from ÎŒx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck. => though in the haskellization we should get different bottoms due to explicit wraps and unwraps, wouldn’t we? 22:12:55 I hadn’t thought too much 22:13:05 arseniiv: which is how I realized that my representation is wrong 22:14:03 ah, that post was about this 22:14:05 data A = A B; data B = B A B <-- it's more like this, and then you do get distinct _|_ and A _|_ before branching. Also, evidently, I'm doing a product instead of a sum. 22:14:34 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:14:34 data B = B1 A | B2 B 22:15:07 I agree 1 + x + y and not concerning ourselves with ⊄-containing terms is clearer 22:15:21 yep I hadn’t even see you did a product at the first time 22:15:28 :D 22:16:18 -!- river has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:17:20 There must be a bunch of papers about how this invalidates generic programming in Haskell ;) 22:17:40 lol 22:19:37 . o O ( The Haskell programmer's heaven is a bottom-less pit. ) 22:19:43 and it shows I wrote something incomprehensible about ÎŒxy. 1 + x + y being the same as ÎŒx. x + N :\ 22:20:31 int-e: I bet what many haskellers’ jokes are about is Just Nothing 22:20:45 at least I can definitely say fix Just Nothing does what it says 22:20:52 > fix error -- practical joke 22:20:54 "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex... 22:21:36 (it’s a bit unfair I came up with those two some half an hour earlier and just copied them here) 22:22:01 yeah I remember fix error, I adviced it to several people 22:22:18 I have it adviced to this time* 22:22:38 > fix show 22:22:39 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\... 22:22:54 Huh, what's fix? 22:22:58 > t:fix 22:22:58 > iterate error "" -- kind of disappointing 22:22:59 error: 22:22:59 ‱ Couldn't match expected type ‘[Expr]’ 22:22:59 with actual type ‘(a0 -> a0) -> a0’ 22:22:59 ["","*Exception: 22:23:06 fix f = x 22:23:08 where 22:23:13 x = f x 22:23:30 ski: oh, 2^n − 1, nice 22:23:46 ahah. 22:23:54 fix f = last $ iterate f undefined -- find the error 22:23:59 imho, escape characters ought not to be escaped, using themselves as indicator character 22:24:06 I remember b_jonas saying something about rational escape syntax 22:24:44 @src undefined 22:24:45 undefined = error "Prelude.undefined" 22:24:52 (there's one error!) 22:25:05 GNU Screen gets this right. `^A' is the (default) escape character. to send a literal `^A' (e.g. to a nested session), you do `^Aa'. for two nested, you get `^Aaa'. linear instead of exponential 22:25:17 (iirc TMux does the same) 22:26:06 . o O ( don't nest screens ) 22:26:58 -!- mrkajetanp has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 22:27:05 what escape syntax? 22:27:09 hmm 22:27:09 ^Aa is slightly less convenient at depth 1. 22:27:09 if `\' was escaped as `\/' (say), then `fix show' above would be `"\"\/"\//"\///"\////"..."' 22:27:24 Also taking ^A away from readline is wrong. 22:27:30 I might have said that I use \x5C all the time instead of \\ 22:27:51 and that I wish K&R set a simple letter escape to mean a backslash, like \s instead of \\ 22:27:57 so that we could have it standardized by now 22:28:05 (hard to avoid nesting Screens, when you have a mediate SSH (or `su', say)) 22:28:07 So... personally I'm going against the quoting efficiency with escape ^B^B 22:28:36 * ski normally uses `escape ^Zz' 22:28:44 (i don't suspend that often anyway) 22:29:10 I suspend things a lot more than is healthy. 22:29:11 b_jonas : yes 22:29:27 but as for screen, I use ^Qq , and in the rare case when I have two screens nested, one of them uses ^Qq and the other ^Aa 22:29:29 (using `escape ^Oo' as alternate) 22:29:40 ^Z, less a file, forget about the background job... later that day, kill half a dozen pending jobs 22:30:09 but there's also the banal ^Z; kill %1 trick that often works when ^C doesn't 22:31:10 fungot: where are you and what's an idiosyncracy? 22:31:25 `? freenode 22:31:37 oh 22:32:20 I do admit that I decided Consumer Society has a less than ideal escape syntax, one that can cause leaning toothpick syndrome 22:32:34 Hmm, why didn't that work. 22:32:35 what's that ? 22:32:56 fungot? 22:33:07 "Consumer Society" ? 22:33:11 fizzie: well, no hackeso? 22:33:14 No, the `? freenode -- and I guess it's because HackEso is gone, but I'm not sure why. 22:33:17 `echo z0eNGh9ji3Y 22:33:31 ski: it's an esolang I'm making, or one of a sibling pair of esolangs rather 22:33:36 08:10:45 --- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: lambdabot, HackEso, chibi 22:33:38 ah 22:33:46 so gone for ... 16 hours 22:33:58 how does its escaping work ? 22:34:18 cause a netsplit, don't come back --> successful escape 22:34:43 chibi is a Scheme bot ? 22:35:04 ski: won't tell yet, the details are not public, but it's one that expands exponentially if you try to nest it 22:35:05 int-e: Oh, it had a temporary network problem, but one that caused it to be immediately "connection refused"ing, and systemd went all "Start request repeated too quickly" and gave up. 22:35:05 oh, apparently not 22:35:21 -!- HackEso has joined. 22:35:25 b_jonas : i'm sorry to hear :/ 22:35:27 `ping 22:35:28 pong 22:35:34 That was simple enough. 22:35:44 fizzie: ah. I think lambdabot just sleeps for 3 minutes and tries again 22:35:46 `echo XpKudeGz98Ar fungot 22:35:47 XpKudeGz98Ar fungot 22:35:50 (well the loop that controls it) 22:37:09 I don't have fungot over on this side, though I guess I could. It wouldn't have the same shared "repository" (in terms of ^def and such), but OTOH those commands aren't really used much. 22:37:15 lambdabot sleeps! I knew it! 22:37:31 fizzie: you don't have to, if you only have fungot on one side then you won't need to make it ignore the bridge 22:37:57 . z Z 22:39:13 fungot will work well that way because it's triggered by a keyword inside the line, pear tree style, unlike most bots that are triggered by a marking at the start of the message contents, so they should be present on all sides or have special code to accomodate the bridge 22:39:20 well... 22:39:32 yeah, there are caret commands where the trigger is at the start of a line 22:39:33 int-e: Stop impersonating me, it's annoying! 22:39:36 lambdabot: @goodnight 22:39:36 Unknown command, try @list 22:39:36 that complicates things 22:40:05 hm this gives me strange ideas 22:40:15 yes, #esoteric tends to do that 22:40:20 int-e: > 2 + 2 maybe maybe? 22:40:49 arseniiv: some sort of parse error 22:40:55 > 2 + 2 maybe maybe? 22:40:56 :1:19: error: 22:40:56 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) 22:40:57 hm should have made “maybe maybe” a comment 22:41:18 Bridges are kind of awkward, but I guess there's the benefit that we might see a cross-network botloop. 22:41:43 fizzie: yes, that's why I asked about fungot's ignore facilities 22:41:51 so the bot can ask fungot to ignore it 22:42:00 s/bot/bridge/ 22:49:49 int-e: I'm sure that delay is something I could configure in the .service file. Probably by setting "RestartSec=...", because the log also says "Service RestartSec=100ms expired, scheduling restart" between the 6 attempts it made. 22:50:41 fizzie: ah I don't know about that, I have a python script 22:51:45 I've been trying to be all modern. 22:52:48 I have systemd units somewhere else, but nothing that actively connects over the network and has to try to be nice . 22:53:24 fungot I've got running in a screen that I just start completely manually. :) 22:59:10 fizzie: why do it manually when you can do https://paste.debian.net/1198292/ 23:00:08 (the best part is where it sleeps for 0.3 seconds because `top` is so slow to start up) 23:01:09 my lambdabot setup is *not* modern or nice 23:01:53 none of my setups are modern 23:01:58 I don't believe in modern stuff 23:02:34 or at least I believe in only some modern stuff and not others 23:02:36 I'm selective 23:02:40 fizzie: The thing is, I started out exactly as you described... set up screen, start the bot from inside screen 23:02:59 fizzie: and over time I added more default screens, and then I got tired of doing it manually every reboot :) 23:03:29 but the path of least resistance was to just keep the basic setup and automate it 23:03:55 and by now the result is not safe for audiences outside of this channel 23:06:10 and it's kind of useful for experimentation... if the socat needs tweaking I can ^C there and modify the command line 23:30:44 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:31:36 -!- mrkajetanp has joined. 2021-05-21: 00:26:03 -!- salpynx has joined. 00:55:54 -!- shachaf has quit (Changing host). 00:55:54 -!- shachaf has joined. 01:06:37 [[3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+936) Created page with "3 is an esoteric programming language which is a subset of JavaScript. In 3, every sequence of 3 consecutive character must contain at least one 3. ==Sample Programs== ===He..." 01:07:02 [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83117&oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+1) 01:12:43 ski: I'm not a bot, and unfortunately I don't know scheme either :P 01:13:28 yea, i realized 01:13:45 i just associated to the Chibi implementation of Scheme (by foof, iirc) 01:15:39 little schemers... 01:24:54 -!- Wezl has joined. 01:25:25 Heh, maybe I should learn scheme 01:30:45 [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83118&oldid=83117 * AndrewBayly * (+82) 01:33:35 -!- int-e has changed nick to when. 01:33:44 -!- when has changed nick to int-e. 01:37:13 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:39:03 -!- mrkajetanp has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 04:40:58 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 04:41:13 -!- imode has joined. 05:05:38 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 05:11:22 -!- salpynx has joined. 05:12:34 -!- salpynx has quit (Client Quit). 05:12:49 -!- salpynx has joined. 06:12:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:03:55 Good morning! 07:04:13 Haneb! 07:05:54 `? tanebventions 07:05:56 Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 07:06:07 `? ruin 07:06:09 ruin? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 07:08:03 `dowg ruin 07:08:08 11515:2018-04-17 forget ruin//ruin \ 11514:2018-04-17 learn ruin//Ruin lies in ruins after a ruined ruination by Taneb. 07:08:58 Maybe int-e meant to use le/rn and it never happened. 07:08:58 How ruinous 07:09:16 `? ruin//Ruin 07:09:17 ruin//Ruin? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 07:10:16 `cbt forget 07:10:17 ​#!/bin/sh \ for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done 07:10:24 `cbt rm-p 07:10:24 rm "$1" && { rmdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null; exit 0; } 07:11:04 i,i lecturer in recent ruins 08:10:17 -!- leah2 has joined. 08:14:00 -!- salpynx has quit (*.net *.split). 08:24:26 shachaf: stranger things have happened 08:37:20 shachaf: in context you probably ruined the joke for me, err I mean gently convinced me it wasn't worth it 10:44:11 [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83119&oldid=81196 * Int-e * (-66) Remove non-category, again. Sigh. 10:56:15 [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83120&oldid=80756 * Int-e * (+0) fix cat(meow)egory typo 10:57:33 Just found out that ^ that silly thing will segfault if the wiki is edited during a moment when it's temporarily disconnected from IRC. 10:58:18 // TODO: don't try until a connection has been established 11:00:25 hah 11:00:39 `quote todo 11:00:40 7) TODO: sex life \ 21) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 29) anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list 12:42:58 -!- Wezl has joined. 13:11:33 [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83121&oldid=81584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Truth-machine */ fix 13:16:05 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:21:10 I think the reason that got left as a TODO is it wasn't quite as trivial as just not calling flush; I've just got a single send queue, which is also used for the connection registration (NICK/PASS and so on), but optimally you'd want an "external" send to either wait until *after* that has completed. Hmm. 13:27:14 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:30:17 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83122&oldid=83113 * Batata * (+12) 14:30:27 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83123&oldid=83122 * Batata * (+4) 14:30:59 fizzie: leave it for later :P 14:32:10 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83124&oldid=83123 * Batata * (+8) 14:32:56 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83125&oldid=83124 * Batata * (+54) 14:33:14 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83126&oldid=83125 * Batata * (-7) 14:33:23 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 14:33:35 Maybe the right thing to do (on the library level) is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel. I don't want to end up in a situation where it's offline for days, then joins and floods all wiki changes at once. 14:34:05 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83127&oldid=83126 * Batata * (+31) 14:34:20 -!- moony has changed nick to cd. 14:34:24 or overengineer it with a ring buffer of configurable length 14:34:52 Strictly speaking it's got one ring buffer of configurable length already. :) 14:36:08 Maybe I'll engineer it into a combination ring buffer and priority queue / dependency tree thing, so that you can express the notion "send this but only when this constraint is satisfied". 14:38:30 It's also got one of those flow control things where it tracks how much "credit" you're expected to have, with different commands having a different base cost, and a constant rate of refill. 14:39:13 Which I think I looked at one of the (simpler) ircd's to set up. And then rounded up a little, because you can't quite predict how it will look like to the server. 14:44:57 . o O ( semaphore ) 14:47:08 "Maybe the right thing to do [
] is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel." => certainly better than segfaulting 15:05:33 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83128&oldid=82963 * Batata * (+49) 15:06:41 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83129&oldid=83128 * Batata * (-3) 15:06:58 That's an odd edit. 15:08:57 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83130&oldid=83129 * Batata * (-4) 15:09:42 but mostly harmless? 15:10:49 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83131&oldid=83130 * Batata * (+72) 15:11:26 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83132&oldid=83131 * Batata * (+12) 15:14:20 Yeah, I just wonder what it's leading to. 15:14:23 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ilaylevy * New user account 15:14:38 wait why would mussolini make everyone speak spanish 15:14:56 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83133&oldid=83132 * Batata * (-2) 15:15:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83134&oldid=83133 * Batata * (-12) 15:15:27 oren: too much Monty Python? 15:22:53 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83135&oldid=83127 * Batata * (+44) 15:23:11 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83136&oldid=83135 * Batata * (+0) 15:24:53 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83137&oldid=83136 * Batata * (+2) 15:25:16 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83138&oldid=83137 * Batata * (+1) 15:27:13 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83139&oldid=83138 * Batata * (+0) 15:28:40 * cd angrily shakes fist at user that isn’t using the Preview button 15:33:05 I know there's some (at least two) approaches that force a preview before save, but I don't know if it's really worth it. 15:34:24 If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does. 15:35:36 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83140&oldid=83089 * Ilaylevy * (+143) /* Introductions */ 15:36:04 [[Yogurt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (+446) Created page with "

Yogurt is a language that uses only 1 character to do a certain action, for example:

{| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Symbol !! Action |- | p || prints the c..." 15:37:34 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83142&oldid=83139 * Batata * (+0) 15:38:01 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83143&oldid=83142 * Batata * (+9) 15:45:42 ?dowg 15:45:42 Maybe you meant: yow docs do 15:46:07 `?dowg 15:46:09 ​?dowg? No such file or directory 15:46:16 `? dowg 15:46:17 A dowg is a wise dog. One who uses many dowgs is known as a dowager. 15:46:28 `? cbt 15:46:29 ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark. 15:49:39 how and what these bots respond makes me feel stupid 15:50:36 `hurl ../bin/cbt 15:50:37 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/cbt 15:51:15 oh, of course. 15:51:17 `cbt cbt 15:51:18 cat $HACKENV/bin/"$1" 15:51:29 `hwrl cbt 15:51:30 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/cbt 15:52:54 `? cbt 15:52:55 ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark. 15:53:30 Oh it prepends a `... when did that happen 15:55:21 https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-04-18.html#lNb is less illuminating than I hoped 15:58:19 `cbt mkx 15:58:20 key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key" 16:01:19 `cbt mk 16:01:20 ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key" 16:01:25 oh god 16:03:55 HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch. 16:05:51 nakilon: maybe the trouble with wisdoms is that it's impossible to tell apart the smart ones from the stupid but obscure ones. 16:06:45 (and of course some of them combine both qualities, smart and obscure) 16:06:56 `cbt hurl 16:06:57 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(f)) 16:10:12 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 16:10:14 hello 16:10:52 nakilon: there's url, for the url of a file in the repo; hurl for its history... and then silly things like hwrl for hurl, but relative to $HACKENV/wisdom 16:10:55 `relcome 16:10:56 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 16:11:24 `hbrl cbt 16:11:25 hbrl? No such file or directory 16:11:35 not this one, okay. 16:11:52 `hoag ../bin/cbt 16:11:54 ​ sled /hackenv/bin/cbt//s|cat bin|cat $HACKENV/bin| \ mkx bin/cbt//cat bin/"$1" 16:12:20 Somebody explained that one to me at least once but I forgot. 16:12:26 `cbt hoag 16:12:27 hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@" 16:12:54 Half the scripts in bin are just incomprehensible aha 16:12:54 `cbt hlnp 16:12:55 scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[ `? nitia 16:13:21 nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her. 16:13:30 `? Moony 16:13:32 moony is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moon moon__ noomy computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain. 16:13:44 `culprits ../quotes 16:13:46 arseniïv int-̈e user345̈6 kspalaiologös km̈c wib_jonäs fizzïe oerjän fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe arseniïv ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 kspalaiologös oerjän km̈c km̈c shachäf oerjän oerjän b_jonäs oerjän b_jonäs b_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän arseniïv oerjän oerjän alercäh oerjän shachäf shachäf wob_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf int-̈e int-̈e oer 16:13:47 now cd and moon get to be added to the list, huzzah 16:13:56 ah, too long, hmm 16:14:18 If only I remembered how to edit wisdom entries 16:14:22 it’s been quite a bit 16:15:53 `cbt sled 16:15:54 ​#!/bin/bash \ opts="${2--i}" \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed $opts "$value" "$key" ; 16:16:39 `cwlprits ../bin/roll 16:16:41 nitïa 16:16:43 Rosebud? wtf 16:17:08 -!- mrkajetanp has joined. 16:17:13 nakilon: note the command name 16:17:28 or maybe you don't know the movie, hmm 16:17:35 (spoiler warning) 16:17:35 Tempted to do a tvtropes ItWasHisSled link here. 16:17:37 heh 16:17:53 Took me a minute 16:17:56 -!- cd has changed nick to moony. 16:18:46 https://xkcd.com/109/ 16:19:00 int-e: Oh no, I don't want to be a ruiner of jokes. 16:19:20 wtf 16:20:03 No command line tool is complete without a sense of humor 16:20:06 Oh wow. https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further 16:20:20 I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me 16:20:22 moony: every unix program will evolve until it can read email 16:21:01 humor@unix.tools 16:21:23 (followup: rm -rf /var/spool/mail = read mail, really fast) 16:21:25 (Sadly not a real domain) 16:22:06 `` cbt rnooodl # speaking of obsolete nonsense 16:22:07 "However it happened, this person who I will never know, spent an hour teaching me how to use IRC." 16:22:08 perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge' 16:22:15 yeah there was a time when people were open to be taught 16:23:15 Hackego’s bin is treasure trove of random silly things from across time 16:24:09 fizzie: Well, the generalized version is not obsolete. 16:24:20 `dobg rnooodl 16:24:22 8518:2016-06-17 ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016-05-29 shachaf may be better at explaining the finer points of bin/ etymology 16:25:45 Hm, I don’t remember, there’s a way for a command to figure out what user is running it correct? 16:26:00 `whoami 16:26:01 int-e 16:26:09 `cbt whoami 16:26:10 echo -n $IRC_NICK; if [[ "$1" == "-v" && -n "$IRC_IDENT" ]]; then echo -n "!$IRC_IDENT"; if [[ -n "$IRC_HOST" ]]; then echo -n "@$IRC_HOST"; fi; fi; echo 16:26:29 Ah yep there we to 16:26:32 *go 16:27:05 `` env | grep ^IRC | paste 16:27:06 https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.2156 16:27:20 `cbt paste 16:27:21 ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] && url "$1" 2>/dev/null # Save making a file when it already exists. \ then \ true \ else \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/tmp/paste \ \ url $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat -- "${1--}" > $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ fi 16:27:45 `` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine 16:27:46 ​`` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine 16:27:50 omg we even have a pastebin 16:27:57 i have some ideas again but I’m on phone which is a terrible place to do shell scripting 16:27:58 Oh no, the whitespace got lost in there. 16:28:15 Well, collapsed, not lost. 16:29:10 `` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine 16:29:11 ​`` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine 16:29:42 (just checking, I was only 99% sure) 16:33:28 So I used to think of "quine just literally reading the program code" and "quine doing it properly" as very distinct classes, with the former one cheating. 16:33:48 But then I was thinking about writing a .COM program which is also a quine. 16:34:04 And in that situation the line is much more blurry. 16:36:10 von Neumann quines vs. Harvard quines. 16:37:32 Right. 16:38:58 `env 16:38:59 PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=##esoteric \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 16:39:53 fizzie: for the future when we might own #esoteric on libera, you should consider to add an env-var to distinguish chat networks (sorry) 16:41:20 "HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch." => yeah. and I live in the continent and don't eat kangaroo meat. 16:41:34 -!- imode has joined. 16:42:08 That's a pretty short environment. And yeah. Although I'm still partial to the boring `#esolangs` name (sorry). 16:42:41 Wait, this channel is about esoteric languages? 16:43:04 I thought this was just a chat room, since when were funny looking languages involve 16:43:49 " I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me" => possibly both 16:44:13 [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83144&oldid=83022 * Zero player rodent * (-464) 16:45:47 fizzie: I'm fine with #esolangs as long as we redirect #esoteric there for discoverability 16:46:18 we have seen users return to #esoteric after years of absence, and if there are such in the future, they will look for #esoteric on libera and freenode 16:47:23 `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | rasel 16:47:24 bin/rasel 16:47:52 moony: the funny looking languages are involved by being collected on the wiki as a public service to keep terrible articles away from wikipedia. we are the heirs of Intercal and so we clean up our own garbage. 16:48:14 `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:48:14 rasel? No such file or directory 16:48:20 hm 16:48:39 `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ./rasel 16:48:40 bin/rasel 16:48:47 `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:48:48 rasel? No such file or directory 16:48:54 Ahaha yes, I’ve had to clean people’s so langs off of wikipedia 16:49:10 autocorreeccccccctttttttt! Stop that 16:49:46 `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel 16:49:47 bin/rasel 16:49:51 `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:49:52 rasel? No such file or directory 16:50:14 I'm doing smth wrong 16:51:58 `cat bin/rasel 16:51:59 cat: 'bin/rasel ': No such file or directory 16:52:06 spaceeee 16:52:13 `cat bin/rasel 16:52:13 echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel 16:52:19 `rasel 16:52:20 rasel? No such file or directory 16:52:29 `ls 16:52:30 a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ rasel_files \ rasel.jar \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt 16:52:51 `pwd 16:52:51 ​/hackenv/tmp 16:54:26 `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo “$@“ | /hackenv/tmp/rasel 16:54:28 ``rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:54:29 ​/hackenv/bin/rasel 16:54:29 ​`rasel? No such file or directory 16:54:35 `rasel 16:54:36 No output. 16:54:50 there 16:55:26 `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:55:27 No output. 16:56:20 nakilon: try without apostrophes 16:56:39 oh moony's autocomplete 16:57:01 `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel 16:57:03 ​/hackenv/bin/rasel 16:57:10 `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:57:11 No output. 16:57:21 `` rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' 16:57:23 Hello, World! 16:57:37 `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj 16:57:38 Hello, World! 16:57:39 oh finally 16:57:57 thanks guys 16:58:00 and you might want to install to a permanent directory in /hackenv/lib or something, not /hackenv/tmp 16:58:33 is there a hackenv/lib? 16:59:03 `ls hackenv/lib 16:59:04 ls: cannot access 'hackenv/lib': No such file or directory 16:59:07 `ls /hackenv/lib 16:59:08 c++decl \ cdecl \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma \ kps \ morse-decode \ p7zip-16.02 16:59:48 and a share too. but no libexec yet. 17:00:07 [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83145&oldid=83144 * Zero player rodent * (+50) 17:00:46 there's also an ibin, which is a relic of EgoBot's legacy 17:01:11 and an interps 17:01:23 [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83146&oldid=83145 * Zero player rodent * (+41) 17:01:29 I think interps is the lib directory for where ibin is the bin directory, or maybe backwards 17:01:45 yeah, ibin is the bin, interps is the lib 17:01:50 this is beyond my understanding 17:02:41 nakilon: /hackenv/tmp is not version controlled, and may be purged once every few years. it's useful for temporary stuff that survives between commands, but probably not the best for a permanent installation 17:03:01 nakilon: /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share are useful for when you want to install something permanently and it's more than just an executable in /hackenv/bin 17:03:33 /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share and /hackenv/bin are version-controlled, and you can have something from /hackenv/bin refer to additional files in /hackenv/lib or /hackenv/share 17:04:12 What is this rasel thing, though? 17:04:34 shachaf: some befunge-like language that nakilon is making https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel 17:04:45 an anagram of laser 17:05:39 `python3 -cprint(sorted("laser")==sorted("rasel")) 17:05:40 True 17:05:49 int-e lol 17:06:26 `python3 -cprint(sorted("release")==sorted("rasel")) 17:06:27 False 17:06:49 b_jonas: that's the enterprise edition 17:07:04 (raselEE) 17:07:11 yeah 17:07:57 `mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem 17:07:57 mv: missing destination file operand after '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem' \ Try 'mv --help' for more information. 17:08:18 ``mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem 17:08:19 ​`mv? No such file or directory 17:08:24 nakilon: start with "`` " 17:08:25 ffuuuuu 17:08:27 Add a space 17:08:29 you need the space too 17:08:33 `` mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem 17:08:35 mv: cannot stat '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files': No such file or directory 17:08:44 it's gone already lol 17:08:47 `cbt ` 17:08:48 ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl 17:09:10 `` is just like `cbt , a command we wrote to have more fun 17:09:12 why is rnooodl in there 17:09:20 `ls ../tmp 17:09:21 a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt 17:09:22 Oh, nice, someone fell into that trap again. 17:09:50 trap? 17:09:52 `? trap 17:10:19 Where trying to mv a file out of tmp/ just permanently deletes it. 17:10:31 nice 17:10:51 oh. right. 17:10:59 I did forget about that. 17:11:09 `ls /hackenv/lib 17:11:23 hackeso? 17:11:34 shachaf: does that apply here though? /lib is not in the repo, is it? 17:11:41 Somebody forgot to feed the mouse again 17:11:46 so we just shouldn't trust the error message 17:11:52 It's not? 17:12:05 I thought everything in /hackenv is checked in except for tmp/ (which is in .hgignore). 17:12:23 oh I guess it is 17:12:30 then, sigh. 17:12:33 hopefully nakilon has a backup for the interpreter, he didn't just develop it in /hackenv/tmp with no other copies, because that would be so last century 17:12:54 yeah it's just a copy from github 17:13:03 What a great trap. 17:13:14 is hackeso alive? 17:13:27 `echo gpKsgvhcHI8y 17:13:30 It is, but the mouse went unfed 17:13:34 not since that `ls ../tmp 17:13:38 someone get the cheese 17:13:50 b_jonas: can you add a recognizable but rare string to those so that I can ignore them, please 17:13:52 It was also not responding to my queries a little before that. 17:14:09 int-e: I guess I should make a command then 17:14:22 or maybe ping is already there 17:14:41 I'll check when HackEso reappears 17:15:16 fizzie: is there anything about `ls ../tmp that would hang hackeso? 17:16:01 bot really dislikes my language 17:16:09 it deleted it and stopped talking 17:16:27 i'm right here what are u on about? 17:16:39 Give it a minute and it’ll throw an out of cheese error. Nothing wrong with your language:) 17:16:44 the web interface seems to be alive 17:17:09 b_jonas: well, so is the other instance on freenode 17:17:23 oh 17:17:39 then it's just one of those cases where the IRC connection half-breaks 17:17:53 half? 17:18:02 it can half-break in multiple ways 17:18:11 if it just breaks completely, that's easy, the irc client would just reconnect 17:19:04 it's 10 minutes already, IRC had to drop him long ago 17:19:15 but I've seen cases where the server pretended that it broke and gave a timeout message, and cases where the connection definitely broke but there was some bug in my bot why it wouldn't restart and I couldn never debug why that was, or it could break in just one of the two duplex directions 17:19:22 or still be alive but with huge lag 17:19:45 or appear to be alive but not respond to anything so you have to wait for a long timeout 17:20:04 int-e: Hmm. Nothing obvious, at least. 17:20:06 -!- dyeplexer has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:06 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:14 Oh 17:20:27 network trouble, fine 17:20:30 those two bot instances should work like a cluster and be able to restart each other 17:20:57 -!- HackEso has joined. 17:21:05 `bot 17:21:06 `ping 17:21:07 bot? No such file or directory 17:21:07 pong 17:21:09 oh, where was it connected to? only he and some guy were splitted away 17:21:52 It connects to whatever irc.libera.chat happens to give it. 17:22:46 I've been keeping an eye on https://netsplit.de/servers/?net=Libera.Chat and the new network's been sprouting up servers like mushrooms in the rain. (Is that also an English idiom, or just a local one?) 17:23:33 fizzie: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spring+up+like+mushrooms ...no rain 17:23:39 mushrooms after rain in Russian 17:24:06 like mushrooms from the ground in german 17:24:53 [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83147&oldid=83146 * Zero player rodent * (+493) 17:25:09 It's "sieniĂ€ sateella" in Finnish, and the adessive case (-lla) there doesn't really obviously translate to a specific English preposition, especially in that context. 17:25:19 But mushrooms and rain are both definitely in it. 17:25:42 -!- dbohdan has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in). 17:25:54 well, you *are* close to russia 17:25:57 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 17:26:00 Hopefully they name their least reliable server Iron 17:26:03 -!- dbohdan has joined. 17:26:27 Sturdy ‘til it’s not 17:26:44 int-e not sure what you mean 17:27:02 I'm 15km away from Lenin's body 17:27:13 nakilon: nordic countries 17:27:18 nakilon: I was replying to fizzie 17:27:43 oh sry, have a highlight on "Russia" in client settings 17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has quit (Changing host). 17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has joined. 17:29:32 -!- dbohdan has quit (Client Quit). 17:29:50 -!- dbohdan has joined. 17:31:23 btw not sure how but it looks like my files aren't gone and were successfully moved there 17:32:06 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:33:57 so they aren't under version control after all 17:34:21 -!- dbohdan has quit (Client Quit). 17:34:37 -!- dbohdan has joined. 17:34:41 ``` sed 's/pong/pong "$@"/' /hackenv/bin/ping 17:34:42 ​#!/bin/bash \ echo pong "$@" 17:34:53 Weeeeird. 17:34:56 I'm confused. 17:35:04 Is there some sort of a global ignore file somewhere for _gem directories or what? 17:35:06 `ping jrFZt8j4_LHE # int-e: I'll try to remember to use ping instead of echo, but I'll probably forget 17:35:07 pong 17:35:18 Because that's the only thing that comes to mind that would explain it. 17:35:46 fizzie: can't there be a local .hgignore file, or maybe hg reading gitignore files or something? 17:36:15 There is a local .hgignore file, but the only thing in it is ^tmp/ 17:36:30 `ls /hackenv/lib | paste 17:36:30 ls: cannot access '/hackenv/lib | paste': No such file or directory 17:36:32 `` ls /hackenv/lib | paste 17:36:34 https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6848 17:36:36 fizzie: yes, but I mean a local one in the rasel package 17:37:35 this won't end well 17:37:35 ``` find /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem -ls # it seems like only the directories exist, nothing under them 17:37:36 ​ 1309820 4 drwxr-xr-x 4 1000 1000 4096 Feb 3 11:42 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem \ 1310481 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/lib \ 1309888 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/bin 17:37:42 nakilon: ^ 17:37:49 ah, only files are tracked 17:37:54 that makes sense 17:37:57 oh! 17:38:12 then we can sneakily store non-version-controlled data in directory structures 17:38:16 or am I mixing up hg and git there 17:39:09 Oh, it's only directories. 17:39:25 Yeah, I think that's the case. 17:39:37 Anyone verified that this network’s IRP interpreter is functional? 17:39:44 And yes, I guess it's also a new way of gaming the system. 17:41:17 nakilon: basically, every command is run twice, with a fresh checkout inbetween. so the first mv takes, but the second time around, the /tmp directory is gone and you get an error... and nothing gets committed 17:41:26 I'm struggling to remember why. 17:41:33 Why what? 17:41:39 (I just did, IRP survived the move!) 17:41:49 why there are two stages 17:42:03 what does "In another world:" mean in HackEso's response? 17:42:11 I think it runs each command twice because most commands are read-only, so it speculatively tries in read-only mode first. 17:42:19 int-e: only commands that write anything to version-controlled get ran twice, and it's to be able to run multiple commands that don't write anything to version-controlled in parallel but serialize commands that do write there 17:42:36 I mean, in the mode where it doesn't lock the repository/serialize/whatever for changes, or something. 17:42:40 b_jonas: concurrent execution, thanks. that was it 17:42:52 Yeah, it's got shared read locks and exclusive write locks. 17:43:07 poor person's RW lock 17:43:08 int-e: jevalbot does not have such locking, and if you run two commands that try to write state in parallel, then the output of one of them may be lost 17:43:12 nvm 17:43:46 "In another world" means roughly "outside /hackenv", meaning there's no web URL available to access that path. 17:44:08 It might also have some subtlety around /hackenv/tmp, which has a web window but no version history. 17:46:33 [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83148&oldid=83147 * Zero player rodent * (+2) 17:46:55 fizzie my mistake was "/hackeso/" instead of "/hackenv/" 17:47:09 I'm not used to "window" being used that way. it already has other technical meanings which is why we don't do so. 17:47:19 [[PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+3311) Created page with "'''PaRappa''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is based on the rhythm game "PaRappa The Rapper". The code is meant to look like the gameplay. It is nearly identica..." 17:48:46 [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83150&oldid=83023 * Zero player rodent * (+15) 17:52:25 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * E97m2813flz1a * New user account 17:54:24 `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj 17:54:25 Hello, World! 17:58:20 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83151&oldid=83140 * E97m2813flz1a * (+129) Introduce myself 17:59:46 that nick is not inspiring confidence 18:00:53 b_jonas: Yeah, I just couldn't come up with a better word on the spot. Web browser? No. Web endpoint, web interface? Maybe. Web view? Nah. Web expositor? Uh, well. 18:01:00 is it moony? 18:01:29 Oh no that’s probably MichaelRaskin 18:02:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:03:10 well whoever it is first has to figure out the instructions on the introduction page :P 18:03:30 from the language name and first words of description I imagined something different 18:03:58 smth like distributed computing over IRC clients 18:04:08 Nah just a silly joke lang 18:04:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:05:26 pft 18:07:34 there is this weird thing https://github.com/ruby/drb 18:07:58 you write code like if you are in the runtime of another process on another machine 18:09:37 the only time I saw it used was in bank 18:11:11 that's fun 18:11:15 instead of making a server that would accept reports via JSON/POST or even their lovely SOAP, they made it a standard in their team... 18:13:28 more explanation here, but basically it's evaling https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.7.1/libdoc/drb/rdoc/DRb.html 18:17:47 fizzie: I would say "web view", but I call it "web interafce" in the wiki article 18:19:39 The reason why I find "web view" jarring probably has to do with the fact that over in Android, there's a thing called a WebView, which is something else. 18:22:34 [[IRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83152&oldid=67566 * E97m2813flz1a * (+345) Describe the situation after Freenode takeover 18:29:35 -!- moony has changed nick to example. 18:32:44 -!- dyeplexer has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:42:44 -!- river has joined. 18:44:02 -!- imode has changed nick to imode-the-great. 18:44:51 -!- imode-the-great has left (WeeChat 3.1). 18:51:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RobynTiger * New user account 18:54:09 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83153&oldid=83151 * RobynTiger * (+161) /* Introductions */ 18:58:19 [[User:RobynTiger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83154 * RobynTiger * (+151) Created page with "First-year Computer Science and Mathematics student :D (I'll add more interesting stuff here later, I guess xD) [https://github.com/robyntiger GitHub]" 19:02:30 fizzie: https://libera.chat/chanreg doesn't mention a ## namespace prefix anywhere, so ## doesn't officially have the same meaning as on freenode. presumably there'll still be a lot of ## channels just to have the same name as on freenode, but that doesn't apply to us 19:03:12 even if you don't register a project or community 19:03:55 oh wait 19:04:05 fizzie: I'm wrong: https://libera.chat/policies does mention that prefix 19:04:10 so it still applies 19:09:01 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:13:21 b_jonas: current practice would allow us to just take #esoteric and we'll keep it unless somebody comes along with a better claim (which is of course a possibility... even an actual "other kind of" esoteric community) 19:14:10 But fizzie picked ##esoteric and he was here first :) (#esoteric is currently "mine") 19:14:45 int-e: yes, we can take #esoteric 19:15:20 I honestly don't care either way 19:15:43 I'm fond of the "esoteric" in-joke 19:17:12 oh! as for in-joke, if we figure out the final place, we should submit a patch to Canaima to direct people there 19:17:26 -!- Wezl has joined. 19:25:17 oh, and even "https://libera.chat/chanreg" mentions the ## prefix. it just says "two # characters", I was searching for /##/ and /double/ 19:26:47 [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83155&oldid=83090 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+313) Corrected an error in the resizing of the memory vector, introduced this scaling for other commands, and fixed an erroneous type declaration. 19:34:08 -!- imode1 has joined. 19:36:32 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:37:12 -!- river has joined. 19:38:45 -!- imode1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:39:41 -!- imode has joined. 19:40:29 -!- river has quit (Excess Flood). 19:41:08 what the hell is going on? 19:41:58 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:43:44 -!- dbohdan has quit (*.net *.split). 19:43:44 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split). 19:45:21 imode: what am I missing? 19:45:32 int-e: the above. 19:46:00 ah, #libera is more impressive 19:47:10 -!- HackEso has joined. 19:47:22 -!- river has joined. 19:49:42 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 19:49:42 -!- dbohdan has joined. 19:53:29 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:53:35 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:53:35 -!- velik has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:53:48 -!- velik has joined. 19:54:43 -!- HackEso has joined. 19:54:56 -!- river has joined. 19:57:29 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 19:57:57 -!- nakilon6 has joined. 19:58:41 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Changing host). 19:58:41 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:01:44 -!- mrkajeta1 has joined. 20:02:45 -!- example has changed nick to cd. 20:05:17 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:05:35 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:06:23 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:06:38 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:06:38 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Changing host). 20:06:38 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:06:59 -!- mrkajetanp has quit (*.net *.split). 20:06:59 -!- nakilon has quit (*.net *.split). 20:06:59 -!- nakilon6 has changed nick to nakilon. 20:07:31 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Client Quit). 20:07:46 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:10:53 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 20:11:22 -!- serpent3416[m|gr has joined. 20:11:24 /))))))))) 20:11:27 //) __ __\ 20:11:30 C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\ 20:11:33 | _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\ 20:11:36 \ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\ 20:11:39 _/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\ 20:11:41 /` \`'-,._./|\ 20:11:42 -!- serpent3416[m|gr has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:12:35 Was... was that spammer lost 20:12:49 Very 20:13:00 just a kiddie with a script 20:15:46 -!- imode1 has joined. 20:19:23 -!- imode has quit (*.net *.split). 20:19:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (*.net *.split). 20:22:09 -!- mrkajeta1 has changed nick to mrkajetanp. 20:28:28 -!- mynery has joined. 20:28:28 -!- mynery has changed nick to myname. 20:29:22 -!- imode1 has changed nick to imode. 20:33:13 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:38:11 -!- iovoid has quit (Changing host). 20:38:11 -!- iovoid has joined. 20:38:21 Liberia? 20:39:26 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 20:39:28 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 20:39:31 nakilon: that pun is the only good thing about that spam 20:41:51 Libertalia, that pirate place. 20:42:30 (All I know about it is watching someone else's playthrough of that one game.) 20:42:33 -!- cd has changed nick to moony. 20:42:40 -!- moony has quit (Changing host). 20:42:40 -!- moony has joined. 20:46:32 -!- mrkajetanp has quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1). 20:48:50 -!- u0_a61 has quit (*.net *.split). 20:48:50 -!- dbohdan has quit (*.net *.split). 20:52:00 -!- moony has changed nick to cd. 20:53:29 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83156&oldid=83143 * Batata * (+36) 20:54:17 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 20:54:17 -!- dbohdan has joined. 20:54:26 what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks 20:54:48 is this some sort of fud campaign? 20:54:57 is the sentiment positive or negative. 20:55:10 remember, you're up against someone who actively hates everybody here. 20:56:08 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83157&oldid=83156 * Batata * (+78) 20:56:58 so I did another attempt to figure put what it is about the Libera 20:57:26 strange to hear nightingales combined with frogs from the street 20:57:32 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 20:57:32 and the only thing I see is that the new owner just put ads of his another company on freenode website 20:58:06 but I don't understand how it's a reason for people to switch to another network 20:59:19 I think it wasn’t obvious what’s planned for freenode’s fate, and it isn’t? 21:01:03 is there anything obvious about fate of anything? 21:01:03 so they might put just ads or the might do something very drastic, or would be further down the road but not right now, and who would know 21:01:16 I mean, not the fate in abstract, but the plain in their head 21:01:17 and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? if people "didn't see 'it' coming" then it wasn't obvious in the first place 21:01:19 plan* 21:01:36 nakilon: they didn't switch to another network if you define the network by the people and principles behind it rather than the name 21:02:03 nakilon: there was a hostile take-over of freenode by a dude calling himself the crown prince of korea, with plans to turn IRC into discord and monetize it. 21:02:08 what more info you need fam. 21:02:19 and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans? 21:02:30 and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? => I’d think, well, before this entire thing started nobody knew it would 21:02:34 if there is, there already was in the "old" freenode 21:02:46 because libera wouldn't exist if the staff agreed with andrew's vision? 21:02:51 the fuck is your argument. 21:03:04 and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans? => I personally don’t! 21:03:25 imode I don't see about Korea and Discord in Wikipedia's article about Freenode 21:03:34 nakilon: you haven't been following the posts, then. 21:03:42 I’m going with my limited instincts for a while 21:03:55 which is fair, this is a messy situation. 21:04:00 arseniiv same today "nobody knows it would" here 21:04:14 if they’ll be wrong, well, so be it, I’m bad with politics and with being informed unfortunately 21:04:33 (they I mean my instincts) 21:04:39 I only see people being scared by their own fantasies about "what can happen" 21:04:47 people aren't on freenode because it's named freenode but rather because of the people behind it. if the people behind it start getting legal threats and collectively decide to make something new, it's probably for a reason 21:04:51 (figurative instincts of course, as humans don’t have biological ones) 21:05:10 nakilon: uh, same could be said of you, on this network. 21:05:32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) 21:05:39 fyi, in case you can't click hyperlinks on freenode's page. 21:05:45 i don't care "what can happen" in freenode, i don't want to be on a network that is overtaken against the will of the community 21:05:52 even if everything would stay the same 21:08:06 how is someone's "prince of Korea" status makes Freenode worse place? 21:08:35 is there something bad about Korea? 21:09:04 how does that makes the #esoteric channel on Freenode less functional or something? 21:09:52 I'm going to be nice and assume you're not trolling, it's not that. it's that someone came in, against the wishes of the community at large, threatened legal action against the existing staff unless they handed over the keys to freenode at large, threatened to drown them in lawyers and legal fees until they backed off property that wasn't his... 21:10:14 nakilon: there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently 21:10:16 tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects. 21:10:20 to stay on the network. 21:10:44 and is now trying to monetize the thing because he bought a "community" of active individuals that he can now break apart while he turns freenode into a glorified investment vehicle. 21:10:48 among other problems. 21:10:56 tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects. => wow :( 21:11:14 there's a reason why sponsors are pulling hardware, why FOSS projects are moving off the network, and why this is overall spreading. 21:11:40 i would be kinda interested in how many active channels will stay on freenode 21:11:51 i'd assume those are next to none 21:12:28 so if you're _genuinely uninformed_ and not just trolling, there's the answer in a nutshell. there are in-depth threads about it on HN, there are plenty of people that'll answer you in #libera or #libera-dev around the specifics. 21:13:08 I’d assume nakilon is not trolling :) 21:13:28 it's really just confusing as hell. 21:13:51 we live in invisible^W confusing times 21:14:18 i don't think the relevant part is that confusing 21:14:36 violent overtake of network. old staff made new network. people like old staff. people move. 21:15:06 I don't know old staff 21:15:31 why would I even know them 21:15:52 why are you here? 21:16:11 this is #esoteric 21:16:21 sure, but even if you don't know them, doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is? 21:16:27 not #channel_of_freenode_staff 21:16:35 great. but why on this network. if you don't agree with the network, if you don't see a purpose behind it, stay on freenode. 21:17:17 are you gatekeeping me or what? 21:17:31 i don't get your point 21:17:32 good toll. 21:17:36 troll, rather. 21:17:45 yeah 21:17:51 you are calling me troll already like 6 times 21:17:53 I’d presuppose the staff should have being doing things more or less right as there weren’t freenode breakups before this event 21:17:55 have fun on the ignore list. 21:17:59 you are aggressive 21:18:09 you aredefinitely not the people I'm here for 21:18:25 lol, inadequate 21:18:25 nakilon this is IRC! 21:19:06 i still have no idea what your point even is 21:19:29 just ignore them, they're here to siphon attention, not actually discuss anything. 21:19:41 let’s not be harsh to each other if it’s possible, I left a forum recently because it was a hard place and it still bubbles up in my memory each day 21:20:06 this is some people have too much time wasted of debating and lurking about staff's personal life and finances, enough much to become spontaneously angry on other users in chat who are just asking questions 21:20:08 [[User talk:Batata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83158 * Batata * (+1) Created page with "e" 21:20:24 that has nothing to do with the staff as persons 21:20:29 arseniiv: I doubt the user in question is actually a part of this community. 21:20:35 and is just here to stir up shit. 21:20:40 this has everything to do with a violent takeover. nothing more, nothing less 21:20:49 VIOLENCE!!!! 21:20:50 i don't support violent takeovers 21:20:57 disrespect your SURROUNDINGS! 21:21:31 ADTR eh 21:21:41 lol this is retarded 21:21:50 how so? 21:22:13 dude keeps shitting on me for no reason 21:22:18 such a kid 21:22:24 I’d prefer to think sometimes we are really confused about this or that or some details but this doesn’t necessarily come through text true; miscommunication happens and it happens often enough. Yep no one should be infinitely trusting, as genuine trolling is a thing, but 21:22:41 but whatever, who I am to mediate anything 21:22:43 no, because you keep talking bullshit and don't act on the given points 21:22:49 "I doubt he's a part of the community" -- ahahah 21:22:57 I'm definitely not the part of his community 21:23:01 if it's about beibng such retard 21:23:08 considering the number of "why does this network exist you all are retards" people that have flooded libera, yeah, I'm going to assume malicious intent. 21:24:16 ragekid 21:25:14 as i said, you still don't respond to any argument 21:25:28 i cannot assume you are serious 21:26:52 I see no arguments 21:27:37 neither answers on my questions about how the legal problems between owners have any effect on the channels 21:28:34 I’d think people generally want to feel safe and they have a bit of a precedent the old freenode staff didn’t abuse their power? 21:28:55 and then they are forced away, so, well
 21:29:50 why isn’t it an argument, at least one in a cumulative heap of arguments if it’s not enough by its own 21:30:13 this network exists because of a takeover of the old network. period. 21:30:51 why are you still entertaining this lmao. 21:30:54 just /ignore and move on. 21:30:59 eh, not my business. 21:31:59 "there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently" -- this is just funny, considering how the world either ignored or even supported the neonazi revolution in my country that lead to 9000 civilian deaths and thousands of deaths among people who were forced to do the genocide 21:32:35 though I’d say maybe discussing this kind of arguments isn’t really on topic in this channel. It’s either not that esoteric and maybe it would be more productive to discuss these matters with other people 21:32:59 and you know what? the majority of humans didn't support the nazis, that'. why they lost 21:33:52 sure, i will do something more productive, like sleeping 21:36:55 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83159&oldid=83157 * Batata * (+88) 21:37:13 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83160&oldid=83159 * Batata * (+1) 21:59:01 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist). 22:05:54 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 22:09:39 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 22:10:56 Meta-discussion about where #esoteric should be is probably on-topic, and the larger questions insofar as they relate to that, but anything beyond that probably not so much. 22:11:34 Personally I'm on this side because while I don't know the people who left particularly well (I think we have just the one former freenode staff member as a channel regular?), I've got a generally positive opinion of them collectively, and feel like as the people who've actually kept things running, they have a better claim to this being the "same network" we've been on so far; and 22:11:40 superficially-independent third-party accounts have on average agreed that the new management has behaved at least a little sucky. 22:11:53 I don't expect the disagreement will necessarily have an impact on how we *could* use either network (unless longer-term one or the other just withers away, meaning less chance of random passers-by), but that just means from that perspective the choice of a network is arbitrary, so there's no particular reason to stay either. And I sorta-like this notion of having a registration scheme for communities, 22:11:59 not just projects. 22:12:44 Now, getting back on track, I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge between the esolangs/esowiki bots. If I turn it on, they'd each copy over every PRIVMSG (except their own, of course), prefix it with " " and send it on the other side. No splitting of long messages, no filtering, no other message types, no bells, no whistles. Is that a good idea or not? What would catch on fire 22:12:50 first? 22:16:28 the first thing would probably be the very precise line length arithmetic in hackeso :P 22:17:50 " what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks" => it did work, because #libera is full of spam where people are complaining about spam on other networks 22:18:05 I'm worried it means that if there starts being spam it'll get propagated and the bot might get klines 22:18:22 anyway, the channel is publicly logged anyway, so I don't think a bridge causes any harm unless there's excessive noise. 22:18:32 one wonders if it's a smear campaign. pretty easy to spam about a network, and then drive people to complain about the spam of the network. 22:18:47 where nobody on that network is actually saying anything outside of libera. 22:19:07 imode: the bots are treated as a smear campaign by the libera staff for sure 22:20:44 officially at least, I'm sure if any tangible evidence to the contrary turns up nobody will be terribly surprised, just disappointed 22:21:30 And... if it's a smear campaign, well, such lingering doubts mean it's working. 22:22:56 " [
] doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?" => perhaps it would if they hadn't posted messages encouraging people to unregister from freenode's nickserv 22:23:47 wow, so much faith in the law 22:24:00 Yeah, I guess the spam forwarding is a potential issue. 22:24:26 Shouldn't there be like a Section 230 immunity for network bridges? ;) 22:24:44 But I guess An Algorithm probably wouldn't care about that. 22:25:54 fizzie: I think we have two former freenode staff members as regulars: FireFly and mniip 22:25:55 I know too little about The Algorithms used by Freenode/Libera. I thought it was mostly Sigyn/ozone listening in on select channels 22:26:03 plus the obvious rate limiting 22:27:08 I don't know any details either, but I imagine they have some pattern-matching somewhere for dealing with those private-message spam campaigns. Unless people just don't have the attention span and that's why they always fizzle out. 22:27:36 "litharge" will break my fingers (that's the eir equivalent) 22:27:43 fizzie: the bridge is probably a good idea but only if you add an easy way to opt out of it so that other bridges can break loops. I suggest making an auxiliary channel and anyone who is joined the bridge won't copy their messages. or something. and figure out what to do with fungot so it doesn't answer twice. 22:28:08 Taneb has a good point about propagated spam 22:28:09 other bridges?! 22:28:36 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 22:28:38 If there's just one instance of fungot, it shouldn't answer twice, I guess. 22:28:59 might be better to ask libera staff and freenode staff 22:29:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far). 22:29:12 I hear you like tree-shaped networks so we added our own tree-shaped network inside IRC's tree-shaped networks 22:29:15 Oh, I'm so glad ##esoteric is here 22:29:41 welcome, ProofTechnique. 22:29:54 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Quit: Updating details, brb). 22:30:00 I don't think having more than one bridge is reasonable. 22:30:03 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 22:30:42 int-e: But think about having the chance to make an adaptive spanning tree protocol thing! 22:31:01 fizzie: I'm thinking about my own cognitive capacity 22:31:09 and how much I'm willing to exert it for IRC 22:31:54 int-e: there's a channel with a bridge from at least three different chat things, plus a matrix bridge separate from each other. unless you want to make and maintain your bridge to support every newly popping up fashionable thing that you want to bridge, you should allow for more than one bridge. 22:32:14 I guess I can always ignore the bridge but that will result in its very own surreal confusion as discussions grow holes. 22:32:40 also multiple bridges can offer redundancy for when the server of one bridge is down, though they need their own protocol for that so they rarely copy the same message 22:32:55 brb, building a bouncer that posts each message over a different bridge 22:32:56 b_jonas: if that's seriously where we're headed then I don't want any bridge at all. 22:32:59 plus multiple bridges is the #esoteric thing to do 22:33:04 "I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge" -- you know what picture is an illustration on Wikipedia's article "kludge"? the bridge! ) 22:34:05 The #esoteric thing would be a Gopher bridge 22:34:06 fizzie: will it be called HackEcho? because I thought of that but it's a stupid name and I think it shouldn't be called that 22:34:06 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83161&oldid=83160 * Batata * (+37) 22:34:43 b_jonas: As it stands it'd just use the same connections as the wiki recent changes feeds. 22:34:53 I don't know if esolangs/esowiki is a great name either, but still. 22:35:11 01:35:05 -NickServ- pipe is not registered. 22:52:00 fizzie: also don't listen to me, a bridge is probalby a terrible idea 22:58:03 Hey, Wikimedia folks seem to think it makes sense: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Migrating_to_Libera_Chat#Bridging_channels 22:59:35 some of them at least 23:03:39 this will probably be decided per-channel, because on channels with few active mods it will copy the spam 23:36:13 -!- u0_a61 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:39:08 -!- bug200027 has joined. 23:39:11 -!- bug200027 has quit (K-Lined). 23:39:31 Hmm, I wonder how many languages have an `else` branch for a loop statement, executed if the loop body never runs. 23:39:47 I think the Jinja template system has one of those, but it's not exactly a language. 23:40:33 Would allow you to do things like `for (auto item : some_list) add(item); else oh_no_its_empty();` 23:41:24 I guess it's not *that* far from `if (some_list.empty()) oh_no_its_empty(); else for (auto item : some_list) add(item);` though. 23:41:25 I'm associating that with Python, somehow. 23:42:10 except that it does something completely different, so never mind 23:43:30 [Python] "The else block just after for/while is executed only when the loop is NOT terminated by a break statement." 23:44:20 Heh, I wouldn't have expected *that*. 23:44:42 How's that an "else"? Well, I guess it doesn't need to make sense to me. 23:44:56 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:57 fizzie: it's an else for the loop condition check 23:44:59 it's weird. 23:46:15 if you break a loop, the condition will never have been false 23:47:26 R..ight, I guess. 23:47:42 fizzie: the intuition is that if you write a search loop with a for-each head to iterate over something and the body breaks early when it finds the first suitable item, the else block is ran if the item is not found 23:47:54 calling it "else" makes sense in that case 23:48:01 That's true too. 23:48:06 "intuition" 23:48:12 and python has iterator for loops 23:48:29 The intuition is that if you do the obvious purely formal construction to translate a loop, that will happen. 23:48:32 that said, I never use for-else or while-else 23:48:58 [Jinja] "If no iteration took place because the sequence was empty or the filtering removed all the items from the sequence, you can render a default block by using else: <...> Note that, in Python, else blocks are executed whenever the corresponding loop did not break. Since Jinja loops cannot break anyway, a slightly different behavior of the else keyword was chosen." 23:49:34 Maybe a more common scenario for templates. 23:49:37 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 23:49:41 (Think "your basket is empty" or whatnot.) 23:52:18 and I think I associate python for-else with the kind of low status stackoverflow copy-paste code monkey who comes to IRC to ask questions for how to do some task with iterator transformers or "in one line" but can't write a trivial while loop to do the same task 23:52:40 I know it's a stereotype 23:52:49 but it's a stereotype I have strong 23:56:39 -!- u0_a61 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:57:10 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 23:57:17 -!- Cale has joined. 2021-05-22: 00:06:31 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:25:59 -!- Gartaver-t has joined. 00:26:12 -!- Gartaver-t has quit (K-Lined). 00:28:22 I guess the people who join and then get K-Lined immediately are spam attempts? 00:34:27 fizzie: possibly 00:35:23 that's I think the most common reason for k-lines 00:52:23 I fiddled together a command-controlled nick-based ignore list for the bridge (so that if someone spams on one side, anyone around -- even on the other side -- can make it stop) but I guess the concern is, if you get k-lined very quickly, maybe just forwarding a single spam message over will be enough. 00:57:52 I create an IRC bot 01:00:15 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83162&oldid=83161 * Batata * (+48) 01:00:59 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83163&oldid=83162 * Batata * (+2) 01:08:06 -!- u0_a61 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:10:52 you could skip the messages that are sent within 5 seconds after channel join AND within 5 seconds before quit 01:23:05 Mm, that'd involve work. Maybe we can just give it a go and see what happens. 01:25:58 Move fast and break things, or how did it go. I'm sure something will go wrong in an amusing way rather than in a painful way. 01:26:54 -!- esolangs has joined. 01:27:38 I think there's about 25% likelihood it will do anything meaningful. 01:28:07 On the other hand, if it does work, it'll be the first time fungot says anything over on this side. 01:28:40 Oh, except it won't, because fungot ignores esowiki for obvious reasons. Heh, didn't think of that. 01:28:40 fizzie: i think that honourable members are representatives of the european union, i.e. the problem is not that people are still listening. in those circumstances, as often as is necessary. 01:28:56 Well, it worked indirectly, I guess. 01:30:17 If anyone wants to turn that off for any reason at all, just say "brctl: ignore freenode/*" and "brctl: ignore libera/*", that should stop it from doing anything. 01:31:02 neeeeat. 01:31:44 I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything. 01:31:53 I should probably check that the logging is still working, at least. 01:33:08 How do I opt out of being bridged? 01:33:16 brctl: ignore shachaf 01:33:16 brctl: ignoring 01:33:23 brctl: ignore freenode/shachaf 01:33:23 brctl: ignoring 01:33:26 brctl: ignored 01:33:26 brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf 01:33:38 Sounds good, thanks. 01:35:21 fungot? 01:35:30 fungooooot. 01:35:31 Yeah, I guess those brctl commands didn't show up on this side. Thinking about these things is hard. 01:35:41 oh it will be ignoring esowiki over there 01:35:58 Yeah, you have to invoke it over here, then the replies will be piped over. 01:36:14 fungot 01:36:14 int-e: mr president, i would also like to say something which the european union, the forests are often the very ones which do actually protect the interests of safety to subject aircraft control and monitoring of that strategy. i am sure that you are right to say that the commission is unwilling to apply this decision retroactively and share the satisfaction of everyone's needs. regarding the recent agreement made over the nex 01:36:49 so what's the plan for the bridge, are y'all moving to libera or are you maintaining a presence. 01:37:35 the resulting logs will not be confusing at all 01:37:41 у / Ăœ / Ăż / Ć· / ÆŽ / Èł / ɏ / ỳ / á»č / ỿ / áș / áș™ / á»” / á»· 01:37:43 у / Ăœ / Ăż / Ć· / ÆŽ / Èł / ɏ / ỳ / á»č / ỿ / áș / áș™ / á»” / á»· 01:38:10 As for plans, I don't really know yet for sure. I guess we're kind of exploring the configuration space. 01:39:01 fair. 01:39:03 There's a little bit of talk at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future if you missed that link. 01:39:31 I had it in my history but haven't checked it. 01:39:40 Not many comments. 01:44:16 I think personally I'd be up for migrating here as the sort of main location, but I don't know how maybe-less-active-right-now-but-still-well-established channel regulars feel. 01:45:56 btw, velik is logging too 01:46:21 -!- cd has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:46:58 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 01:46:58 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 01:47:02 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the something something esoteric programming | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out. 01:50:12 -!- user3456 has joined. 01:53:14 int-e: Re logs, yeah, especially if opting out becomes commonplace. Well, we can give up on the bridge if it gets too much, just couldn't resist. 01:53:59 (Also, the ignore list is just in-memory at this point.) 01:58:50 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 02:02:32 a bridge, you say 02:02:56 -!- user3456 has quit (Changing host). 02:02:56 -!- user3456 has joined. 02:03:12 -!- iovoid has joined. 02:03:40 yes, a bridge 02:04:08 Over troubled water, no doubt. 02:04:46 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out. 02:05:30 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out. 02:07:46 Hmm, if I turn off windows_auto_renumber, I think I could maybe convince irssi to give the "parallel universe" channels window numbers that are, say, offset by 100 from the ones I'm used to, and that way remember what the numbers mean. 02:08:38 [[User:AndrewBayly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+58) Created page with "Hi, I'm Andrew. Here are the esolangs that I have created:" 02:11:52 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 02:12:44 [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83165&oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+447) 02:13:21 [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83166&oldid=83165 * AndrewBayly * (+0) 02:16:05 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 02:26:54 fizzie: you can also put multiple channels into the same window if you wish, though you may have to change the formatting to distinguish them then 02:27:30 oh hey, you enabled a bridge to freenode? 02:27:34 does it work both directions? 02:27:41 yes it does, jonas 02:29:13 " I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything." => bot loops probably 02:29:39 Yeah; I don't know if it's a good idea, but it's there for now. At least a cross-network botloop would be somewhat novel. 02:30:43 There's a few "brctl:"-prefixed commands that anyone can use to manage which nicknames are ignored, and as a special case * will match all nicks if you need to turn it off completely and I'm not around. 02:30:50 brctl: help 02:30:50 brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message 02:31:30 Taneb: as for OFTC and the +s flag, I believe that's as much of a policy as freenode's ## prefix in channel names 02:31:55 `? log 02:31:57 ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/ 02:33:40 -!- cd has joined. 02:33:41 ``` echo "let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated."; seq 999 02:33:43 let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated. \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ 72 \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ 78 02:33:43 lambdabot: > 1 02:34:21 lambdabot: @run 1 02:34:22 1 02:34:55 lambdabot: @run 2 02:34:56 2 02:35:05 okay, good. 02:51:19 ACTION waves to the bridge 02:51:34 I guess clients might differ in how they render that 02:53:05 Hmm. AACTION waves to the bridgeA with inverted As. 02:55:39 . 02:56:08 int-e: how did you send that without the bridge forwarding it? 02:58:13 IRC has two kinds of messages, PRIVMSG (ordinary messages, usually /msg) and NOTICE (secondary messages, /notice) ... both types can have a channel as the target (here, ##esoteric), and the bridge only forwards thr former type. So what I'm doing is /msg ##esoteric <...> 02:58:45 Hah, /notice at the end, of course. Muscle memory took over, or something. 02:59:04 Why is there a github for logs? 02:59:43 `? why 02:59:45 why? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 03:01:13 Sgeo: no particular reason; the attitude is, they're there, they're public, so they should be listed in the topic 03:01:36 like this? 03:01:50 that worked 03:17:44 The thing with notices is, the client-side presentation is all over the place. Especially in irssi, where they get the channel name for no reason. 03:18:01 I did consider forwarding them too, though. 03:18:21 In Hexchat, it also shows the channel name 03:18:33 like this: [11:01:50] -int-e/##esoteric- that worked 03:19:41 -!- alex-resist has joined. 03:19:42 https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog 03:19:45 -!- alex-resist has quit (K-Lined). 03:20:16 Well, the first forwarded spam. 03:20:40 Technically all bot replies are supposed to be NOTICEs, and no bot should ever automatically reply to a NOTICE. But nobody actually follows the first half of that. It would entirely prevent botloops, though. 03:21:44 At least libera.chat's antispam kicked in 03:22:13 RFC 2812: "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies MUST NEVER be sent in response to a NOTICE message. -- This is typically used by services, and automatons (clients with either an AI or other interactive program controlling their actions)." 03:23:12 well that went out of the window when mIRC came along, didn't it 03:23:21 and turned notices into popups 03:23:50 test 03:24:31 irssi hilights me on channel wide notices too. 03:24:32 (that's probably, and hopefully, no longer the case) 03:25:42 shikhin: check the /hilight settings? I'd expect that notices are mentioned somewhere in their explicitely then, but I'm not sure 03:25:47 their->there 03:41:25 Can I also have any messages mentioning my name be ignored? 03:42:47 -!- user3456 has changed nick to vi. 03:42:56 -!- vi has changed nick to vim. 03:43:05 -!- vim has changed nick to emacs. 03:43:17 -!- emacs has changed nick to libera. 03:43:26 -!- libera has changed nick to ed. 03:43:48 -!- ed has changed nick to user3456. 03:44:30 -!- user3456 has changed nick to npp. 03:45:54 -!- npp has changed nick to sudo. 03:46:30 -!- sudo has changed nick to su. 03:48:04 -!- su has changed nick to user3456. 03:49:30 -!- user3456 has changed nick to visudo. 03:50:05 -!- visudo has changed nick to dd. 03:50:22 -!- dd has changed nick to cron. 03:50:36 -!- cron has changed nick to user3456. 03:53:17 -!- d33cee has joined. 03:53:17 https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog 03:53:19 -!- d33cee has quit (K-Lined). 03:58:44 Sorry about the nickname change spam 04:16:05 -!- cd has changed nick to {}. 04:16:17 -!- {} has changed nick to cd. 04:39:32 -!- mac_mario has joined. 04:39:33 -!- mac_mario has quit (K-Lined). 04:44:41 -!- jonsykkle has joined. 04:44:41 -!- jonsykkle has quit (K-Lined). 04:45:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:49:45 -!- finkata has joined. 04:49:52 -!- finkata has quit (K-Lined). 06:13:06 [[Assign]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+2258) Created page with "Assign is an esoteric programming language that is a subset of JavaScript. In Assign there are no assignment, increment or decrement operators. ==Strategy== I found that to w..." 06:14:13 [[Assign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83168&oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+82) 06:15:10 [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83169&oldid=83166 * AndrewBayly * (+88) 06:20:27 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kwes * New user account 06:21:41 -!- DCatcher has joined. 06:21:44 /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\ 06:21:46 -!- DCatcher has quit (K-Lined). 06:23:41 -!- sprock has joined. 06:23:54 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83170&oldid=83153 * Kwes * (+185) 06:24:29 [[User:Kwes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+12) Created page with "making stuff" 06:33:05 [[Yogurt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83172&oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (-4) 06:36:27 I mean. no? 06:45:40 i'm a bit confused where those bots come from. like, is it someone from new freenode to annoy people that switched? 06:48:15 Taneb: Haneb 06:56:02 it's very similar to previous spam waves... feels like just people who enjoy getting people to react to it 07:10:09 mm, trolls 07:10:37 the conspiracist in me thinks all this drama is manufactured to benefit Discord 07:10:46 chaos, Discord, confusion, bureaucracy, aftermath 07:11:01 also I'm still in freenode #esoteric and it's "fun" to see my messages mirrored there 07:11:09 dongs 07:12:39 Confusion would be a good name for a discord competitor 07:15:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:17:59 yes 07:18:59 i mean one of their major competitors is Slack 07:19:09 which I assume is a reference to the Church of the SubGenius, an offshoot of Discordianism 07:19:15 which came first I'm not sure 07:19:57 but this is one of these "holy shit, the people in my cohort of awkward weird nerds grew up and are running the world now" things 07:20:33 meanwhile I briefly worked for an also-ran web chat service based on Zephyr (named Zulip, now open source) and got fired for being depressed before my shares vested 07:20:36 c'est la vie. 07:34:39 -!- vrakfall has joined. 07:34:40 /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\ 07:34:42 /!\ JOIN #HAMRADIO TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\ 07:34:50 -!- vrakfall has quit (K-Lined). 07:48:28 * Taneb morning! 07:56:11 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:10:30 good morning 08:10:37 relay bot not so good with CTCP ACTION 08:12:48 -!- j4cbo has joined. 08:36:01 keegan: how's it going 08:38:00 fizzie also you can blacklist the "/!\" substring 09:04:06 keegan: You can opt out from being bridged if you like, by saying "brctl: ignore keegan" on this side. 09:06:10 I'll filter out /!\ though that's pretty specific to this particular spam wave. 09:06:41 -!- j4cbo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:06:53 -!- j4cbo has joined. 09:07:27 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:07:37 I faintly remember some #hamradio-themed spam from time before the split, wonder why that one gets picked on so much. 09:07:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:07:37 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 09:08:01 -!- jinn_ has joined. 09:09:02 -!- jinn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:12:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hmmmmmmmm * New user account 09:12:38 -!- esolangs has joined. 09:13:15 Turns out /!\ is a bad word and shouldn't be forwarded. (Just testing.) 09:14:40 /!\ 09:14:47 /⚠\ 09:19:01 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83173&oldid=83170 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+213) Add my user introduction 09:19:06 [[User:Hmmmmmmmm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83174 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+185) Make my own account page 09:51:07 -!- blooser-M has joined. 09:51:08 -!- blooser-M has quit (K-Lined). 09:54:07 I'll suspend my twitch IRC analytics project and probably delete my account since they made another post where they continue falsely accusing their users in "hating women" to censor the fact that they became a platform for prostitution 09:57:08 that was the only network where I currently saw the Tags IRC v3 feature 10:01:25 18:34:24 If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does. 10:01:59 https://ircv3.net/ - IRCv3 Features - Grouping related messages to simplify collapsing and display of those messages to users. 10:04:37 -!- esolangs has joined. 10:04:49 Yeah, I saw that mentioned somewhere. 10:08:46 -!- nakilon has quit (Changing host). 10:08:46 -!- nakilon has joined. 10:14:05 this editing/collapsing stuff changes things a lot 10:14:37 we are used to that if we open the logs we see the same that we see in chat 10:15:18 now we have to add some post processing to convert logs to "real" chat log 10:16:58 and how are we supposed to split logs by days if there was a message collapse over the 00:00 10:41:06 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:44:23 -!- topdownjimmy has joined. 10:44:35 -!- topdownjimmy has quit (K-Lined). 11:17:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HaleyHalcyon * New user account 11:18:24 -!- ThriftyDillo has joined. 11:18:32 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83175&oldid=83173 * HaleyHalcyon * (+233) /* Introductions */ 11:18:36 -!- ThriftyDillo has quit (K-Lined). 11:22:05 int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion 11:22:11 someone comes in confused. 11:23:16 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 11:25:46 [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83176&oldid=79839 * HaleyHalcyon * (+732) Example added: Truth machine 11:25:56 int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion 11:26:02 someone comes in confused. 11:32:18 [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83177&oldid=83176 * HaleyHalcyon * (+269) /* Parts */ Disambiguations 11:32:40 [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83178&oldid=83177 * HaleyHalcyon * (-2) /* Parts */ Format error 11:46:00 [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+1753) Created page with "== MarioLANG test cases == The code is run on the sandbox at TIO.run. === Multiple elevators on the same X coordinate === ==== Code ==== > :! "===== > ! ==..." 11:56:18 do I understand right that it's practically impossible to add a language to https://tio.run/# ? because the last commit I see in their repo 2 years ago and there are hanging pull requests in both repos 12:01:59 it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend 12:02:10 I've heard of TIO, but I don't think I've ever actually used it. 12:02:13 Lovely language list, though: probably the first time I've seen Quadrefunge, Quintefunge, Sexefunge and Septefunge mentioned anywhere. 12:02:38 [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83180&oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+873) /* MarioLANG test cases */ 12:05:57 [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83181&oldid=83180 * HaleyHalcyon * (+120) /* Wall/floor interchangeability */ 12:06:25 looks like they were mirroring every language https://github.com/TryItOnline?q=&type=&language=&sort= 12:06:47 [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83182&oldid=83178 * HaleyHalcyon * (+74) /* Instructions to Mario */ 12:23:26 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:33:06 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83183&oldid=83115 * Fizzie * (+690) /* Freenode and the future */ On community registration. 12:38:15 nakilon: I wonder if with webassembly and such it'd be viable to make something like this that doesnt need server resources (outside hosting the files somewhere), runs all the interpreters in the browser 12:40:33 Kind of reminds me of how the Internet Archive has all those old pieces of old software in a playable state by running the emulation in the browser. 12:52:29 should be easily possible. there are cross compiled linuxes that run entirelyy in browsers 12:57:16 fizzie: sure, we can go to #esolangs . it matches the esolangs.org domain name that points to the wiki. 12:57:52 nakilon: re TIO yeah, the chatroom's starboard https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/44255 explains why 12:58:32 fungot, what brand of DVD demagnetizer do you recommend? 12:58:33 b_jonas: mr president, i should like us to be very significant and important, being adopted in due course should that appear necessary. finally, our obligation, as it sometimes does not immediately become obligatory and an essential service. with regard to these circumstances it is believed that this issue is already covered by the definition of the fields of finance for innovation and growth. 12:59:27 "it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend" you mean you'd be willing to host it? 13:00:04 i assume the frontend is somewhere in the github 13:00:20 you mean like llvm? 13:01:20 nakilon: you could just have it run an interpreter, since you have a high chance that you can find an interpreter ran in a language that TIO can already run 13:01:58 you may need to do some porting, but probably not more porting than you'd need to do to run the same interpreter in browser client side 13:06:39 i recently learnt of a wasm interpreter for k https://ktye.github.io/, for which i believe the author wrote their own c-dialect to wasm converter https://github.com/ktye/i/blob/master/_/i3/w/readme 13:10:14 -!- tech_exorcist has changed nick to O2. 13:10:32 -!- O2 has changed nick to tech_exorcist. 13:10:39 -!- tech_exorcist has left. 13:58:24 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:58:36 -!- HackEso has joined. 14:03:35 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * T0mi10 * New user account 14:07:17 [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83184&oldid=82736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+215) Add input, Truth-machine, and cat program 14:10:30 [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83185&oldid=83184 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-66) /* Examples */ Remove annoying ZWSPs, and prevent them 14:13:01 [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83186&oldid=83185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Remove the last ZWSP 14:14:20 [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83187&oldid=83186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Commands */ Bangyen's suggestion 14:22:22 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:22:50 fizzie: sounds reasonable to me, and about what I'd expect from policy etc. 14:59:09 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:04:43 b_jonas I mean I just need a frontend for RASEL; don't want to reinvent this webpage with forms and stuff 15:05:42 the backend can be trivially done serverless in Cloud Run 15:06:46 and even moderated call rate via additional layer with a lightweight webserver that would track how often it's being spinned 15:06:49 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:10:26 TIL Excel has lambda for some time now 15:10:32 and let! 15:10:48 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/lambda-the-ultimatae-excel-worksheet-function 15:11:06 oh, so bridge is working? 15:15:59 Yep, though I think I'll be moving this end of it to `#esolangs`. 15:16:08 arseniiv: I heard about that. I don't think it's a big deal. we always had excel 3 named functions where you just slap the expressions you want to evaluate into cells of a macro worksheet, with possibly local names they assign to, assign a name marked as a macro function to their first cell, and then if you call that function from a formula, it evaluates the cells in order from top to bottom, unless 15:16:14 you call GOTO or similar functions. there is one serious limitation of course: whe a macro function (which you can call from expressions in cells) is executed, unlike when a macro procedure (which you can't call that way) is executed, most builtins that cause side-effects, such as change the formula of a cell, have their side effects silently suppressed, so it's hard to cause side effects from a macro 15:16:20 function other than changing the values (not the formulas) of the cells of that macro function (other formulas can then refer to those values) 15:17:32 the main way that macro worksheets differ from normal worksheets btw is that on normal worksheets, all cells have their value recomputed automatcally every time their formula or a cell they recursively depend on changes (you can turn this off, but that's unusual), while in a macro worksheet, cells are evaluated only when a macro is running and its program counter points to that cell 15:18:11 didn't use Excel since like 2012 15:18:13 TODO for self: document esowiki (the bot) on the wiki, especially its ignore statement 15:18:34 nakilon: I said "forever". this existed since the earliest time I've seen Excel. 15:18:57 Google Docs Spreadsheets have Google Apps Script that can do all the calculations and integrate with the rest of Docs and Google services 15:19:38 interesting, didn’t read anywhere about macro worksheets 15:19:55 not only it allows defining functions, those "macros" can be ran on their own on trigger or schedule, centralised, no edit wars 15:20:29 people literally run the whole businesses in Spreadsheets with GAS since then 15:20:56 schools, some shops, warehouses 15:21:26 arseniiv: it's not a story the Jedi would tell you 15:21:36 then it got all integrated with Bigdata and other data processing services of Google with bells and whistles 15:22:05 -!- esolangs has joined. 15:28:30 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:45 -!- HackEso has joined. 15:29:32 (Loading configurations without killing the process would be far too bourgeoisie thing to allow.) 15:37:40 -!- nakilon has joined. 15:39:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:39:42 -!- b_jonas has joined. 15:40:22 -!- pikhq has changed nick to pikhq_. 15:40:31 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 15:41:00 is it bridged? 15:41:11 yeah it is. funny. 15:41:21 -!- cd has joined. 15:41:36 brctl: help 15:41:36 brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands 15:41:40 semibridge 15:41:45 where is this bridged 15:41:57 cd: to freenode/#esoteric 15:42:04 ah 15:42:24 `ping 15:42:27 pong 15:42:53 -!- int-e has joined. 15:43:18 -!- sknebel has joined. 15:43:24 * int-e weeps for #esoteric 15:47:16 `` (quote '#esoteric'; grWp '#esoteric') | wc -l # int-e: at least we'll still have all these references for who knows how long 15:47:17 56 15:50:18 -!- river has joined. 15:50:27 how about cloaks 15:50:30 `env 15:50:30 PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 15:50:37 yes, we're on #esolangs now 15:51:11 is esoteric deprecated? 15:51:19 -!- shikhin has joined. 15:51:19 of course, as fizzie said, the move won't officially be official until we edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal 15:52:20 and we might want to wait until the admins get an official webchat working, rather than using kiwi 15:53:05 * cd stops munching on kiwi and hides the skins 15:53:08 the name "libera" still sounds stupid to me because it sounds like the diaper brand "Libero" 15:53:10 hm? kiwi? what kiwi 15:53:43 For the community registration, what I have is a "verbal" ack (plus settings for this channel), I've not gotten a reply yet to the formal email. So we might wait for that as well. 15:53:56 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 15:53:59 cd: https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/irc.libera.chat 15:54:12 * cd knows what kiwiirc is 15:54:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:54:21 I can't use kiwi, I'm slightly allergic. :/ 15:54:23 * cd was making a bad joke 15:54:37 * Taneb is here noow also 15:55:20 kiwi is for guests 15:55:28 you don't have to use it 15:55:31 Should've taught that bridge about CTCP ACTION while I was mucking with it. 15:56:12 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 15:56:18 [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83188&oldid=83003 * Tomhe * (+13) /* Bit-specific */ Bit-specific changed to Words-value (aligned syntax update). 15:56:57 guys, does /whois show my "Actual hostname" for you? 15:57:18 Not to me. 15:57:50 okay, since I see that field and could not be sure 15:58:26 nakilon: yes, the irc server tells you your real hostname even while you're cloaked, because you're inside the cloak 15:58:41 this sounds awful 15:59:12 because ĐșĐ»ĐŸĐ°ĐșĐ° is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca 16:01:25 it's a physical constraint. if you wanted to see your cloak, you would have to move your eyes outside the cloak, and then people could see your eyes. 16:02:48 if you still want that, make another connection to the server 16:03:11 uh can't you just 16:03:14 ask nickserv 16:03:20 cd .. 16:03:25 `/msg nickserv info USERNAME HERE` 16:03:26 ​/msg? No such file or directory 16:03:35 fungot 16:03:37 fungot: asd 16:03:39 river: /home/> _ 16:04:13 cd: you could ask HackEso 16:04:26 ``` echo "$IRC_HOST" 16:04:27 catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu 16:04:33 true 16:04:34 Oh, right, fungot. Hmm. 16:05:05 I guess I should keep it on the side that has more people planning to use it, which might be this one. 16:05:11 cd: or /msg perlbot arg &h 16:05:23 you can ask any sufficiently powerful bot 16:05:29 "Fungot is missing!", a hit educational game for the SNES. 16:05:36 Can you run multiple Fungotia? 16:06:08 Almost. I'd just need to never run ^save on one of them, or configure different state files. 16:06:20 But I don't know if the world is ready for more than one fungot. 16:06:20 don't let funge start growing 16:06:32 I don't think we are ready for that 16:07:43 I wonder if there were IRC viruses 16:07:57 that find bots with backdoors to replicate 16:08:08 nakilon: there were at least malware, not necessarily virus 16:08:23 nakilon: not targeting bots, but very buggy IRC clients 16:08:33 perhaps also targeting bots, I'm not sure 16:08:53 Eggdrop was so popular, I'm sure there must've been a vulnerability in there somewhere. 16:08:54 I guess you could find some of the bot loops viruses 16:09:15 i still wonder how fast a bot that's programmed to join any channel mentioned near it would spread across a network 16:09:40 -!- fungot has joined. 16:10:12 perhaps there is a limit of channels you can join 16:10:21 there is, i forget what it is 16:10:23 `CHANLIMIT=#:250` 16:10:24 CHANLIMIT=#:250`? No such file or directory 16:10:30 but it's pretty high and you could simply open a new connection 16:10:50 Not sure if it's that specific limit, I just had the connection-open numerics from fungot's debug screen. 16:10:50 fizzie: how come there's a 3rd arguement now? http://mumble.net/campbell/ tmp/ restrict.html for what i need 16:11:26 cd: you could just use alis to find channels 16:11:33 it's not all channels, because channels can be hidden from that, but still 16:11:37 yes, but i meant what i asked 16:11:38 :P 16:11:56 well let's see 16:11:57 while I was tracking twitch I had an idea to note the raids after the stream (that's a thing when streamer leaves and moves all his viewers to some another stream, keeping the audience within the website and making a social connetion with a selected target in that way) 16:12:29 so it would be possible to slowly build a graph of people who tend to raid each other 16:13:48 . o O ( Streamers who raided X also raided Y and Z. ) 16:14:09 is alis here too? 16:14:28 yes there's an alis 16:15:03 I made a "who's having an affair with who" chart for a... well, let's call it a forum, once, based on people mentioning the names of other members. 16:15:06 Less obviously, Sigyn is ozone, eir is litharge. 16:15:29 Someone's name was a pretty common word, they got an edge with everyone in the graph. 16:15:38 lmao 16:15:39 GraphViz was having problems rendering it, but that's not a surprise. 16:16:10 let's speed up its bootstrapping. dear bot who joins every channel mentioned, please JOIN 16:16:13 ##chat,##electronics,##hardware,##math,##politics,##programming,#ansible,#bash,#bitcoin,#c,#C++,#centos,#datahoarder,#debian,#elixir,#emacs,#fedora,#freebsd,#gentoo,#gentoo-chat,#git,#go-nuts,#guix,#hamradio,#haskell,#idleRPG,#ircv3,#irssi,#javascript,#libera,#libera-dev,#libera-offtopic,#libera-overflow,#lineageos,#linux,#lisp,#lobsters,#matrix,#musl,#networking,#nixos,#openbsd,#osdev,#perl,#postgresql, 16:16:19 #python,#raspberrypi,#reddit-sysadmin,#reprap,#rockylinux,#security,#sway,#thelongue,#ubuntu,#vim,#voidlinux,#weechat,#wikimedia-operations,#wikipedia-en,#windows,#zig,#znc 16:16:36 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:16:50 i'd write such a bot but i feel i'd make the admins annoyed with me 16:20:11 it’s a bit interesting that all ideal triangles are congruent 16:22:01 noncongruence starts with quadrilaterals in dimension 2, though I suspect non-planar quadrilaterals are again all congruent?.. 16:22:26 cd: you'd have to make it leave channels that are almost empty or else your join quota will fill up quickly 16:26:51 -!- anonymous has joined. 16:27:18 `python3 -cprint("#,"+",".join(["#%c" % k for k in range(33,126) if k != 44])) 16:27:19 ​#,#!,#",##,#$,#%,#&,#',#(,#),#*,#+,#-,#.,#/,#0,#1,#2,#3,#4,#5,#6,#7,#8,#9,#:,#;,#<,#=,#>,#?,#@,#A,#B,#C,#D,#E,#F,#G,#H,#I,#J,#K,#L,#M,#N,#O,#P,#Q,#R,#S,#T,#U,#V,#W,#X,#Y,#Z,#[,#\,#],#^,#_,#`,#a,#b,#c,#d,#e,#f,#g,#h,#i,#j,#k,#l,#m,#n,#o,#p,#q,#r,#s,#t,#u,#v,#w,#x,#y,#z,#{,#|,#} 16:28:35 i own #1, it is the best channel 16:28:42 cd: I had a friend who wrote a program that just... repeatedly instantiated a new bot that'd connect and joing a particular channel. 16:28:54 They got to about 20 before a staff member joined and told them to stop 16:28:57 lol 16:28:58 (this was pre-2017 freenode) 16:29:13 well yea if you're making that many connections someone's gonna notice aha 16:29:26 cd: you need #one as well, and #uno etc. 16:30:31 That would be channel hoarding 16:30:34 so nah 16:30:56 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:30:57 just trying to help *d&r* 16:31:56 Taneb: freenode has some limit on how many clients can connect from one address, and they even have some [A-Z]line feature that gives excemption from that for heavily NATted addresses like convention centers or universities 16:32:19 -!- river has joined. 16:32:31 at least one Ircnet server has a rule of at most three connections per host 16:32:40 though of course this gets more complicated with ipv6 16:34:28 the usual workaround for spammers is to buy a botnet made of a large number of random people's home computers acquired via vulnerabilities 16:36:07 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 16:37:11 -!- xkapastel_ has joined. 16:38:01 yea, i-lines 16:38:17 @hellomouse.net had one on freenode as we have a bouncer. We need to get that back 16:38:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by arseniiv_))). 16:38:45 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 16:38:45 -!- V has joined. 16:39:16 brctl: help 16:39:16 brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands 16:39:35 brctl: help ignore 16:39:35 brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message 16:40:07 fizzie: bridged to wherems't? 16:40:13 oho 16:40:19 to here. 16:41:18 -!- anonymous has quit (*.net *.split). 16:41:34 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_. 16:42:07 -!- Cale has joined. 16:42:23 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 16:42:27 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_. 16:42:29 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 16:42:43 brctl: ignore 16:42:43 brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands 16:42:50 brctl: ignored 16:42:50 brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf 16:45:28 what 16:45:38 -!- xkapastel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:46:09 I'm guessing the libera side has just lost the connection or something. 16:46:55 does it still bridge? 16:47:33 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:50:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:50:02 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:50:38 -!- esolangs1 has joined. 16:50:47 -!- fungot` has joined. 16:51:07 -!- jinn has joined. 16:51:16 what do you think? 16:52:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:55:10 ooh, esolangs1. let's see if it will loop with the other esolangs 16:55:19 hey esolangs1, loop 16:55:23 nope 16:55:41 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:41 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:41 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:41 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 16:55:42 -!- j4cbo_ has changed nick to j4cbo. 16:56:32 -!- esolangs1 has changed nick to esolangs. 16:58:59 so fungot, you're here now? what brand of DVD demagnetizer would you recommend? 16:59:00 b_jonas: thank you, and perhaps helped by the house, calls for a dual legal basis before the court of justice against this untimely change. no-one, neither the european parliament. you were asked to work to establish the partnership was still pending. 17:00:23 yeah, I guessed you wouldn't give a straight answer. in that case, fungot, what features should I pay attention to when I buy a DVD demagnetizer? 17:00:23 b_jonas: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, i will be coming onto the market products that could compete with those now circulating on the internal market. in some respects even improves on the commission to establish a policy that undermines the quality of legislation and the consequence therefore is, if we go back to two points here. first of all, only one additional country has come on board. 17:02:15 I see, fungot. you emphasize the difference between ones produced locally and east asian knockoffs 17:02:15 b_jonas: mr president, i will be speaking about these further in our committees, in full or in part. 17:02:21 very good 17:02:31 this network had lead to some fun things 17:02:34 https://thelounge.hellomouse.net/uploads/cd24a5123916a651/image.png 17:04:04 brctl: ignore V 17:04:04 brctl: ignoring 17:04:10 That's how it should've responded. 17:04:13 ??????? 17:04:21 brctl: ignored 17:04:21 brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/V libera/shachaf 17:04:30 (If you don't *want* it to ignore you, feel free to undo it with unignore.) 17:04:31 brctl: ignore freenode/V 17:04:31 brctl: ignoring 17:04:34 excellent 17:04:36 -!- cd has changed nick to bi. 17:04:41 I guess it just fell over 17:05:08 Yeah, a lot of clients ping-timeouted at the same time. 17:05:29 -!- variable has joined. 17:05:36 Also poor old little fungot got a ` growing on it. 17:05:36 fizzie: mr president, a lot fewer trees, some 140 million. that trend is the same as any other beef in europe. 17:05:50 That's a lot of trees. 17:06:08 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot. 17:06:15 dear fungot what do you thing of ideal tesselations and all that? 17:06:15 arseniiv: mr president-in-office, if the house adopts these amendments, we will always be relative to our dependence and reliance on nato which still owns the essential military hardware and which enabled us to develop the criteria relating to its independence and its considerable competence in issues that are sensitive for the european political institutions during the past months. these men were put behind bars, although the 17:06:47 A consummate politician, never a clear answer. 17:07:04 Except that one time. 17:07:07 I can’t even parse it completely 17:07:55 these men were put behind bars => I see cell borders here. I think fungot is perfectly aware what was asked of them 17:07:56 arseniiv: mr president, i would also like to thank you, first of all about the allocation. regarding parliament's team itself, we still believe that coordination, cooperation and shared responsibility, whereby all those involved for the last two years, so we cannot blame the commission) is also necessary to be able to get down to finalising at the earliest. 17:08:02 -!- voidio has joined. 17:08:27 `ls 17:08:28 a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt 17:08:41 -!- iovoid has quit (*.net *.split). 17:08:44 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid. 17:08:46 well, I’m certainly not the one who allocated the space for fun​got 17:08:50 -!- variable has left. 17:09:55 -!- bi has changed nick to cd. 17:10:10 fungot: and at last, do you know any religious hymnes and do you recite them in evening? 17:10:10 arseniiv: mr president, the wto negotiations and with a view to its full extent if it wishes to integrate? also, may i begin by reminding you that i cannot give you the following: could we not express our disappointment? the scope of the programme. 17:10:12 -!- anonymous has changed nick to river. 17:10:36 okay so they don’t recite 17:11:27 -!- xkapastel_ has quit. 17:12:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:12:54 -!- kunwon1 has joined. 17:12:55 -!- kunwon1 has quit (K-Lined). 17:13:16 also that ideal polygon tesselation proves we can easily represent any free group on finite generators via hyperbolic motions: for n generators, just take a tesselation into regular ideal (2n)-gons 17:13:54 no having to include one free group in a two-generator one 17:14:25 how easy! 17:14:47 int-e: b_jonas: you might have been interested ↑ 17:16:16 I mean, b_jonas might have already said something like that last time, but then I didn’t understand completely 17:16:19 fizzie: What's fungot licensed as, when it comes to using/modifying it? 17:16:19 cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i only got to see the financial resources for this programme is important because we need them to understand each other well. as regards the international conferences we have been obliged, with the agreement of any substance. i can assure the honourable member will surely agree, this is a form of development. i would like to single out the last initiative of the british authorities were m 17:16:41 arseniiv: yes, tha'ts what I tried to say at https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-05.html#ldI 17:16:43 -!- \a has joined. 17:17:01 <\a> fizzie, What is the license of fungot? 17:17:01 \a: mr president, since the long march, and it is now the essential question, a philosophical choice. europe will continue to press the council of ministers will adopt them. 17:17:09 i already asked aha 17:17:45 fungot has great answers to our questions. What is the meaning of life, fungot? 17:17:45 cd: madam president, i should say that my group believes that the lack of safe access for relief agencies to people in a country with disastrous social conditions in which those who have been able to reach agreement on the reform of the commission in agenda 2000 will further increase the speed of technological advance, narrow consumer choice, increase the capacity of economies to adapt to the new member states can always introd 17:17:53 b_jonas: I glad to see that now; thanks nonetheless 17:17:56 arseniiv: the illustrations are under https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Infinite-order_tilings 17:18:07 cd: \a: Heh. Yeah, looks like I never actually chose. Let's say MIT for the code, and I'll look at updating the repository to reflect that. 17:18:14 -!- \a has changed nick to fg. 17:18:19 -!- fg has changed nick to \a. 17:18:22 sounds good 17:18:36 The language models aren't publicly available anywhere, though. 17:18:52 fungot's code size is so small that the license text might take up a significant part of the shirt 17:18:52 b_jonas: madam president, commissioner, you will note is specifically referred to in the question of comitology. this is partly explained by hizbollah’s outrageous tactic of using human stem cells to achieve the objectives in the field of homeopathic medicine. 17:19:50 It's actually just the babble generation subsection (lines 129-173 of fungot.b98) that's on the shirt. 17:19:51 fizzie: thank you for the opportunity to read the information. against this background, the commission, in order to solve them effectively. how, moreover, i feel that the message and practice stemming from laeken are contradictory. they are now lying there during the winter, when orders decline, this credit on their working procedures or, as in portugal and poland for instance, paragraph 4, the commission is full of enthusiasm 17:20:19 <\a> The MIT license is quite small 17:21:29 b_jonas: thanks. I came to the idea by drawing a sketch of {4, ∞}, precisely! 17:22:29 fizzie: wait where do one finds such a shirt? 17:23:05 arseniiv: I just got one printed at one of those "you upload a .jpg, we email you a shirt" places, I had a free code for one. 17:23:12 can’t express how I love the conformal disk model 17:23:14 I think I've got the specific .jpg online somewhere, let's see. 17:23:38 I wonder how it looks on a real shirt though :) 17:23:54 Actually, what I had online is a photo of the real shirt, so you're in luck. 17:23:57 or do they show shirt mock-ups? 17:23:58 https://zem.fi/tmp/fungotshirt.jpg 17:23:58 fizzie: firstly, i should like to illustrate this link by referring to oil, as ' integral elements of european policy, is a situation that we have a unanimous report from the relevant committee. 17:24:19 fizzie: neat! 17:24:26 It's an immediate conversation starter for sure. 17:25:37 Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply. 17:25:38 yeah, there's a nice visible jump table 17:25:43 personally I have yet to wear any custom-printed tee, just doesn’t seem that urgent 17:26:20 Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply. => lool. But you’d need a model loaded somewhere too, though 17:26:29 and it should be enormous 17:26:37 Yeah, maybe keep one around as a printed book. 17:26:47 rofl 17:29:12 or wear one of these crocheted hyperbolic planes as a skirt, they're fast to random access because you can draw a complete binary tree on them 17:29:22 no need to mess with slowly seeking sectors like on a hard drive 17:30:38 of course the linear seeking of a flat shirt is suitable for befunge code 17:30:46 b_jonas: how is a euclidean skirt lesser for this purpose? Eventually you’ll need a microscope but is that that big an issue? 17:32:21 -!- paulmcquade-M has joined. 17:32:25 -!- paulmcquade-M has quit (K-Lined). 17:33:51 hm there is a chance of hyperbolic fungeoid out there. One could use those inclusions of n-generator free groups and extend programs by reimagining them as using a free group with more generators as a grid 17:34:11 hyperbolic fungoid would be... interesting 17:34:21 for one how would you reference memory, grid coordinates don't work anymore 17:34:33 cd: there are coordinates usable for hyperbolic plane 17:34:41 yep! 17:34:50 How would you write the program 17:35:03 The Funge-98 Lahey-space is pretty funky on its own, even if it may look like a plane when you don't consider the wrapping. 17:36:02 some people would use a specialized editor, just like they now do for writing Java programs, other people would just use C-x M-c M-butterfly , because it's still represented as a sequence of bytes 17:36:04 we can even make arbitrary jumps like unfamous logo turtle would: (1) rotate in place a rational multiple of 2π and (2) go a rational amount in your current direction 17:36:29 -!- keegan has joined. 17:36:34 meow 17:36:37 is this the cool place to be 17:36:42 we can afford a countable set of jump/rotate instructions just for this insanity 17:36:55 keegan: no, this is a channel full of weird nerds 17:37:02 lol taneb 17:37:08 i am not weird 17:37:09 i am cd 17:37:18 arseniiv: just use a finite generator 17:37:39 Weird nerds and a circular object that stores data 17:38:08 weird nerds are cool 17:38:11 b_jonas: hm in the end we’ll be able to unify all that inside some finite-generator free group, yeah, though only if the program is finite 17:38:12 furthermore, i am a weird nerd 17:38:21 keegan: well then, this must be the cool place to be 17:38:28 ergo de facto 17:38:51 arseniiv: no, I mean a finite generator for finitely many rotate/jump instructions 17:39:00 is it possible that zzo will join this irc channel? 17:39:19 meow 17:39:31 river: it's certainly concievable 17:39:41 But who knows what zzo will do 17:39:45 zzo will probably make his own irc network based on gopher or something 17:40:08 Well, we'll build a bridge to it when that happens. 17:40:34 I learned the other day that Gopher is named for the mascot of the university where it was invented (University of Minnesota), in addition to being maybe a pun on "go for" 17:40:58 b_jonas: yeah that’s what I read; but that’s equivalent for a program being finite, as it’ll be able to use only finitely many instructions. But I think it’ll be good to allow any rational rotations and translations in general 17:41:15 arseniiv: no no 17:41:22 -!- imode has joined. 17:41:39 s/for/to 17:43:06 you'd allow the program to span a potentially unlimited part of a grid on the hyperbolic plane, just as saner fungeoids do on the euclidean plane. euclidean fungoids only need a few jump builtins too. 17:44:38 oh hey, neat, you got the forward. 17:45:45 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 17:46:01 -!- imode has joined. 17:46:21 imode: fizzie did that. "just couldn't resist", he said. I knew it was the #esoteric thing to do. 17:46:45 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:47:35 thumbs-up from me. 17:48:44 it'll probably only stay for a transitional period, then we'll just stabilize on one network, but still 17:48:47 it's fun 17:49:23 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv__. 17:49:26 -!- arseniiv__ has changed nick to arseniiv_. 17:49:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by arseniiv_))). 17:49:45 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 17:50:03 uh those NickServ shenanigans 17:52:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:52:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:53:43 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:57:10 -!- jinn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:57:10 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:57:10 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:57:10 -!- \a has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:57:10 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:57:10 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:58:47 -!- esolangs1 has joined. 17:58:47 arseniiv: they can help too, sure 17:58:59 isn't his name "fungot" though? 17:59:00 b_jonas: unfortunately, recent employment statistics for the whole of europe, is a most serious precedent that i would like, however, that development is undertaken in other areas. in july last year on behalf of the european parliament wants an interinstitutional agreement, the commission has not done for years. 17:59:20 isn't his name "fungot" though? => both first and last? 17:59:20 arseniiv: mr president, first of all, i would like to say how glad i am not in a very striking way something that is absolutely clear; and we must equally ensure that there is annoyance and disappointment over the commission, by the european union 17:59:42 though hm of course it will be both first and last if it’s just a single one 17:59:44 -!- lifthrasiir_ has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 18:00:12 > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last] 18:00:13 arseniiv: mr president, of course, but this should be accompanied by an assessment of whether this sum really makes up for deficiencies in the actual texts of regulations relating to the situation prior to harmonisation. amendment no 3 18:00:20 nooo 18:00:52 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:00:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:00:52 -!- xkapastel_ has changed nick to xkapastel. 18:00:52 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:01:09 -!- jinn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:09 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:09 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:09 -!- \a has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:51 > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last] 18:01:51 esolangs1: mr president, i should like to start by expressing my total support for an exceptional report and for the quality of bathing water quality, taking account of the obstacles which deny children access to a mother or father indeed, to make proposals for upward harmonisation of tobacco taxation. the point of view. 18:01:52 error: 18:01:52 ‱ Couldn't match type ‘a b’ with ‘[]’ 18:01:52 Expected type: [[Char]] -> a (b, d) ([Char], d) 18:02:09 did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed? 18:02:20 Whoops, not ignoring the bridge when it's got its altnick on. 18:02:44 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:03:59 int-e: Oh, right. When you're not busy, there's an obvious lambdabot deficiency here. 18:04:20 > let first = head in map ($ ["fung​ot"]) [first, last] 18:04:21 :1:34: error: 18:04:21 lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8203' 18:04:32 > let first = head in map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last] 18:04:32 esolangs1: mr president, on the fnord. the terrorists dragged him over the last two years. 18:04:34 ["fungot","fungot"] 18:04:34 esolangs1: madam president, i have a number of regional meetings with representatives of the presidency. 18:05:19 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:05:30 fizzie: mmm, obvious? 18:05:43 [ 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?' 18:05:44 b_jonas: |open quote 18:05:44 b_jonas: | 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?' 18:05:44 b_jonas: | ^ 18:05:51 did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed? => didn’t know they allow non-ASCII latin there 18:06:17 I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card 18:06:28 no I believe perfectly 18:06:37 -!- nakilon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:06:40 -!- esolangs1 has changed nick to esolangs. 18:06:53 int-e: Well, obvious in the sense that someone tried to use it but it wasn't here. 18:07:10 -!- nakilon has joined. 18:07:27 the bank's homepage shows example credit card images, but they look fake, not real photos of credit cards 18:07:33 Maybe that's not quite the right adjective. Blatant? Something. 18:07:51 fizzie: I don't know what to look for. 18:08:15 over here, they transliterate to ASCII latin and do that quite liberally. I bet Đč and ĐžĐč have more than two transliterations there in the wild. There were standards on that but not a single one and almost always they seem to be ignored 18:09:03 int-e: I mean, if I wasn't clear -- it's just not on this channel, it's on the deprecated one. 18:09:23 fizzie: ah! 18:09:24 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 18:09:38 (Also was that > prefix thing special too? I don't know for sure.) 18:09:48 "it" in "use it" referred to the bot as a whole, not to a particular feature that was missing 18:10:00 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:10:07 imagine you can end up with ы and Đč transliterated the same (as y). Though it is the ambiguity that’s worse, as sometimes the card transliteration should for some reason match with transliterations in other places, or something. And you need to somehow control that the bureaucrats match them :D 18:10:49 11:06 < b_jonas> I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card 18:10:52 you could redact the number 18:11:00 just make sure to actually cover it with a black box or something 18:11:04 rather than blurring or pixelating 18:11:20 I don't think most people realize how easily you can recover even heavily blurred or pixelated text if you have a strong prior 18:11:21 -!- river has joined. 18:11:51 and 16 digits with known spacing and font is a very strong prior 18:12:06 keegan: yep usually it’s a gaussian blur or something alike 18:12:07 Someone had just failed redacting a PDF with the usual thing (opaque black box drawn on top, original data not removed), I thought nobody was really doing that anymore. 18:12:23 fizzie: a Zen variation of not seeing the forest for the trees... there were no trees 18:12:24 I don't remember where, some piece of local government maybe. 18:12:28 whats your unique ID? 18:12:42 -!- mynery has changed nick to myname. 18:13:19 -!- jix has joined. 18:13:32 keegan: I refuse 18:13:57 I do redact some photos, like ones with people's faces, but I won't do that in this case 18:14:33 I know I should consider myself lucky for having an ASCII-only name, but I miss out on all these stories. 18:14:46 fizzie: . o O ( When I said "send it electronically" I meant it to be printed and faxed, not sent by email! ) 18:15:38 i have an ascii name too 18:15:39 fizzie: Where might one find fungot-compatible models? :P 18:15:39 cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, in his opinion, regretted that fewer and fewer borders in international crime. according to the rule of law; the european initiative for democracy and human rights. 18:16:25 we are having a baby in about 15 weeks and are still deciding about names but we have decided firmly on using the printable ASCII subset (no NULs or BELs) 18:16:28 my surname has a non-initial capital, which a lot of systems drop, but it hasn't caused me problems 18:16:34 cd: You might consider training some of your own. There's step-by-step instructions at https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt for the "modern" training method. 18:16:34 fizzie: mr president, i would like to convey my objections at least, to that year and thus during the previous magps, which compensated for any reduction in working hours will help to create or improve counselling and legal advice centres which will be to report on their activities, for it is undoubtedly the case that if there is a wider rural world than farming and tourism development. this means that we have all made every ef 18:17:10 ooh, I might look at that. thanks, fizzie 18:17:10 keegan: (no NULs or BELs) => consoling 18:17:22 fizzie: aren't ASCII-only names the majority in Finland? 18:17:47 I've never uploaded the pre-baked ones anywhere. I guess a lot of them are based on public materials, but maybe there's an ethics question in there somewhere too, cloning an AI vs. growing a new one in a similar environment, I don't know. 18:17:47 I don't think it's something you need to consider lucky 18:18:09 b_jonas: It might be a majority, but it's not a huge majority, Ă€ and ö are pretty common in names. 18:18:15 wifey and I have different surnames so that complicates things too 18:18:22 I mean, it might be a 90% majority or something, but not like orders-of-magnitude majority. 18:19:07 I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it 18:19:24 -!- 003AAAO6M has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:19:24 -!- velik has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:19:33 -!- velik has joined. 18:19:37 There's a lot of mojibake in snailmail from abroad, at least. 18:19:41 -!- iovoid has joined. 18:19:45 (Based on friends' experiences.) 18:19:59 I'll have to find some good materials to bae it on 18:20:01 *base 18:20:35 fizzie: yeah, it's funny when shops in china can't correctly print non-ascii letters on the address stickers of mail 18:20:56 A friend of mine who moved to Australia has also been having trouble with his last name (two Ă€'s), because different pieces of officialdom insist on spelling it differently, and then complain about mismatches. 18:21:02 I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it => É…ĆŸĆ§ÈŁÎ»Ă° MƋödĂžczeς 18:21:02 still amazed by https://celebraterickysargulesh.tumblr.com/post/31917763793/wizardishungry-an-image-of-a-post-envelope-with 18:21:27 there are some short street names that are almost impossible to guess from the mangled addresses 18:22:37 arseniiv: what is that? 18:26:50 -!- [[ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:26:50 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:26:50 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:27:23 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:27:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:31:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:31:47 -!- velik has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:31:47 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:32:23 -!- esolangs1 has joined. 18:32:24 -!- imode has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by imode1))). 18:32:26 -!- imode1 has changed nick to imode. 18:32:40 they're supposed to be real names in universe, but I think he deliberately avoids real names out of universe to avoid offending someone real 18:33:03 (still about the Polish one: we should probably ask kspalaiologos about what tsch-letter is correct, I don’t know at all how do they differ. Maybe one of them was for a hard ch and the other for the soft one) 18:33:07 I'm guessing Myyntti Raatalla is mock-Finnish, and that's just so bad when it comes to phoneme durations. "Myntti Raattala" you could have. In fact, I think Raattala is a real surname. 18:33:25 -!- velik has quit (*.net *.split). 18:33:25 -!- esolangs has quit (*.net *.split). 18:33:25 -!- [[ has quit (*.net *.split). 18:33:25 -!- xkapastel has quit (*.net *.split). 18:33:25 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 18:33:28 -!- xkapastel_ has changed nick to xkapastel. 18:33:52 -!- velik has joined. 18:34:03 b_jonas: I think I might have heard about that polka from a friend, he translated it to some language IIRC 18:34:17 -!- esolangs1 has changed nick to esolangs. 18:34:19 -!- PavelDruzhinin-t has joined. 18:34:22 -!- PavelDruzhinin-t has quit (K-Lined). 18:34:31 part of the in-universe story is about a person who wants to change their surname 18:35:37 -!- Deewiant has joined. 18:35:47 we have that list analyzed in a few points of #esoteric logs. I think it even got changed to better represent the languages of regulars. 18:36:04 which is why it doesn't have any spanish or portugese names by the way 18:36:11 because we don't consider the Canaima guys regulars 18:37:27 [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83189&oldid=82647 * EnilKoder * (+14) added John Conway to the list of deaths in the comment of unimplemented ideas 18:39:23 though I guess we should add a russian name to it now 18:40:17 Huh, I always thought those names were a reflection of which languages are available in the thing. 18:40:30 ``` words --help 18:40:31 Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \ 18:40:34 `words -l 18:40:35 valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M 18:40:36 ``` words -l 18:40:37 valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M 18:40:38 though I couldn’t give an advice on that, as they are too diverse because of cultural mixing 18:40:49 b_jonas ↑ 18:41:35 arseniiv: sure, most of the Hungarian names are mixed in too, and the easiest way to make an authentic sounding Hungarian name is to hungarianize the spelling and phonology of a fake foreign name 18:41:42 like, not that diverse of course, but I think I would be a bad advisor nonetheless 18:41:53 b_jonas: haha 18:42:04 are there good fake pokemon name generator models? 18:42:21 `pokemon 18:42:22 pokemon? No such file or directory 18:42:26 `pokemons 18:42:27 pokemons? No such file or directory 18:42:54 I bet HackEso had something for that, though you’d know better if it’s good 18:44:55 it has the same problem: there are less than a thousand real pokemon names (right now; it will grow), so it's hard to generate fake ones that look real 18:45:40 `words --pokemon 18:45:42 turtor 18:46:01 I tried to generate fake town names of Hungary, there the sample is like 2500, the best ones I got are "RĂșgonya" and one that I forgot but that turned out to be the Hungarian name of some town outside of Hungary 18:46:05 arseniiv: ah yes, I'm stupid 18:46:20 `words --pokemon -o 2 20 18:46:21 nectriken victinaracturtwig skitunky druddiursa cascoloss darumbrelibird lier bunny thundoublast tsareecko banetapod torb snorlax gigalitle leafeon klinklantini wigglyphlos wurmplumismagius macharjabug fomalakie 18:46:34 the command was right here; I have no eyes and I must seem^W see 18:46:36 snorlax is real 18:46:52 banetapod sounds nice 18:47:01 wurmplumismagius :D 18:47:01 thundoublast also sounds nice 18:47:09 gigalitle too 18:47:12 leafeon... isn't that real? 18:47:22 yeah, leafeon is real 18:48:14 klinklantini seems to have an affinity to alcohol 18:48:28 and glassware 18:48:58 are there inanimate-ish pokemon? 18:49:16 yes, geosomething 18:52:58 -!- velik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:57:10 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:57:47 -!- esolangs1 has joined. 18:59:31 `words --russian -o 2 20 18:59:32 â€‹ĐżĐŸĐŒĐŸĐ·ĐœĐŸĐŽĐ¶Đ°Đœ забытĐșĐ°Đ·Ń‹ĐČĐ°Đ»Đ”ŃˆĐ”ĐœĐž ĐœĐ”ĐŽĐČыхъ ĐșĐ°Ń€Đ°Đ»ŃŒĐČОлО ĐŽĐ”Đ»Đ°ĐłĐŸŃĐżĐžŃ‚ ĐČОжОша ĐČŃ‹ĐœĐŸŃƒĐșŃ€Đ”ĐœŃ‚Đ°ĐłĐ·Đ° сарĐșĐ°ĐœŃŒĐșĐ”ĐœĐœĐŸŃŃ‚ĐžĐČĐŸĐ±Đ”ŃŃƒ сОластДра ĐżŃŃ‚ĐžĐžĐ»ĐŸŃĐžĐ»ŃŒŃĐșĐŸĐ»ĐŸĐłĐž encessemble ĐœĐ°ŃŃ‚Ń€ŃƒĐžŃ€Đ°ĐČĐœĐŸĐżĐ»ŃŽŃŃŒ ĐșĐ°Đ»ĐžĐ·ĐžŃ€ŃƒŃŽŃ‚ŃŠ ĐżĐŸĐČĐžĐŽĐŸĐČлДДĐč ĐșĐŸĐ±Ń€Đ°Đ·ĐČĐ”ĐŽĐ”ĐœŃ†ĐžŃŽ ŃĐœĐŽĐ·Đ°ĐœĐœŃ‹Đč ĐŒĐžŃˆĐ°ĐłĐŸŃŃĐ·Đ°Ń‚ĐŸ ŃŃ€Đ°Đ±Đ°ĐŒĐ±ĐŸĐČĐ°Đ» 18:59:38 seems legit 18:59:46 -!- velik has quit (*.net *.split). 18:59:46 -!- esolangs has quit (*.net *.split). 18:59:59 `words --russian -o -2 20 19:00:00 ​ĐșĐŸĐœŃŃ‚ĐČарĐșĐŸĐČĐ° ĐŽĐ”ĐŽĐŸŃ‚Đ°ŃŽŃ‚ Đ±ŃƒŃˆĐžŃ‚ŃŒŃŃ Đ±Đ”ĐłŃƒĐœŃŒŃĐșĐž ŃƒŃˆĐžŃŃŒĐŒĐ”ĐŽŃŃ‚Đ°ĐœĐŸĐČ Đ°ĐŒĐČŃ‚Ń€Đ”ĐœĐžĐ”ĐŒ ĐŽĐžĐžĐ”ĐŒ ŃĐŸĐșĐŸĐœ ĐžŃ‚Ń€ĐŸĐżĐ°ŃĐœĐŸŃŃ‚ŃŒ ŃĐŸŃ„Đ”ĐœĐŸ ĐżŃ€ĐžĐ±Đ”Ń€ĐłŃƒ праĐČŃŒĐŽĐ°ĐœĐ° ĐœĐ”ĐłĐŸ ДЎают ĐżĐŸĐ»ŃŽŃ‚Ń€Đ”Ń‚ŃŒŃ оспрусахь ŃĐ»ŃƒĐ¶Đ±Ń‹Đ»ĐžĐœŃŠ ĐșĐŸŃ€Ń‚Đ·Đ°ĐœĐœŃ‹Ń… ĐŒŃƒŃĐșĐ°Đ°ĐșĐŸĐżŃ€ĐŸŃ…ĐŸ ĐœĐ”ĐșЮуфаĐčŃ‚Đ”ŃŃ‚ĐžĐ»Đ”ĐœĐœĐŸ 19:00:20 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 19:00:34 more like fake Bulgarian 19:01:04 `words --bulgarian 20 19:01:06 ​ЮърĐČĐŸŃŃ‚Đ”Ń… ŃĐœĐŸŃˆĐžŃ… ĐșŃŒĐŸŃĐČĐ”Ń‚ĐœĐžĐș Ń€Đ°Đ·ŃƒĐ±Đ”ĐŽĐ”ĐœĐžŃ ĐłŃŠŃ‚ĐœĐ°Đ»ĐžĐ·ĐČŃ€Đ”ĐŒ Đ±ĐŸŃ€ĐœĐžŃ†Đ°Ń‚Đ° ЮюЮюĐșĐ°Ń€Đ°Đ±ĐŸŃ‚ĐžŃ‚Đ” ĐżĐŸĐŽĐŸĐČĐ”Ń‚ĐœĐ°ĐŽŃ€ŃŠĐœŃ‡Đ° просарсĐșОтД Đ·Đ°ŃĐžŃĐČĐ°ĐœĐ” Đ±ŃŠĐ±Ń€ŃĐČаш ĐŸŃ‚Ń†Đ”Đ¶ĐŽĐžŃ‚Đž ĐœĐ”ĐœĐ°Đ¶ĐžĐŒĐ° уĐČĐ”Ń€ĐœĐŸ ĐŽĐŸĐșĐ°ŃĐ»ĐžŃ ĐœĐ”ĐżĐŸĐșĐČащ ĐŽĐŸĐ±ĐžŃ„ĐŸĐČĐ°ĐČяĐČащ ОзĐČДстД ĐŸĐŽĐ”ĐčĐșĐž Đ·Đ°ĐŒŃŠŃ€ŃĐČащо 19:01:40 -!- esolangs1 has changed nick to esolangs. 19:02:10 -!- velik has joined. 19:03:31 "Đ±ŃŠĐ±Ń€ŃĐČаш" starts with "бъб", as if it deliberately tried to look not russian when you specify --bulgarian 19:04:04 also "ЮърĐČĐŸŃŃ‚Đ”Ń…" 19:04:54 ĐșĐ°Đ»ĐžĐ·ĐžŃ€ŃƒŃŽŃ‚ŃŠ -- that ĐȘ in the end is some from 19th century rules 19:04:55 arseniiv: both have some of the brain in https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2663#comic => haha that’s perfect 19:05:00 -!- voidio has joined. 19:05:02 of course that's exactly the kind of thing that these models can do well 19:05:26 -!- [[ has joined. 19:06:05 -!- \a- has joined. 19:06:20 hey, did you notice it has "encessemble" among russian words? 19:06:36 -!- xkapastel_ has joined. 19:06:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:06:49 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:06:49 -!- \a has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:06:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:06:49 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:06:49 -!- xkapastel_ has changed nick to xkapastel. 19:06:50 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid. 19:06:54 yep, some garbage in the used dictionary 19:07:07 let's try shorter ones 19:07:14 `words --russian -o -4 20 19:07:15 â€‹ĐŸĐ»ŃŃ€Ń…Đ°ĐŽ ĐżĐ°ĐŒ ĐșĐŸŃŃ„Ń„ ĐșĐŸĐœŃĐŸĐČĐ”Ń€ĐœĐŸ ŃĐžĐ»ŃŒŃ‡Đ°ĐłĐŸŃŃƒĐŽĐ¶Đ”Đč ĐłĐŸŃ€ĐŸĐč Đ±Ń€Đ°Đ·ĐżĐ°ĐłĐŸĐœĐžĐșĐž забаЎсĐșĐ°ĐłĐŸ ĐŒĐ°ĐœŃĐșĐŸĐŒŃŠ ĐŸĐœĐŸĐłĐŸ Đ”ĐČаталОс Ń€ĐŸŃŃˆŃƒŃŽŃŃ ĐČых ĐČĐŸĐŽĐžĐ·ĐŒĐŸŃ€Đ°ŃĐœĐŸĐČ ĐżĐŸŃ€Ń‰ĐžŃ‚ĐœĐŸĐŒ ĐŽĐ”ĐČŃĐ·ĐœŃŒ ĐžĐČĐșĐ°Đ» ĐžĐœĐžŃ€ŃƒĐ”ĐŒŃ‹Ń…ŃŠ ĐŸŃ‚Ń‚ĐŸĐżĐ° Ń€Đ°Đ·ĐŽĐ”ĐœŃŒĐșĐŸĐČ 19:07:21 the short ones look more believable 19:07:23 -!- \a- has changed nick to \a. 19:07:33 ĐłĐŸŃ€ĐŸĐč is a valid word 19:07:39 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:07:41 Bulgarian is funny to read even when it’s genuine. Hopefully Bulgarians wouldn’t take offense 19:07:44 also ĐŸĐœĐŸĐłĐŸ 19:07:49 so is "ŃĐŸĐșĐŸĐœ" from above 19:07:50 -!- shachaf has joined. 19:07:54 ĐșĐŸŃŃ„Ń„ ъ 19:07:57 => lol 19:08:02 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 19:08:18 "ĐČых" doesn't look real 19:08:24 that’s a common abbreviation for ĐșĐŸŃŃ„Ń„ĐžŃ†ĐžĐ”ĐœŃ‚ coefficient 19:08:38 oh! 19:08:39 nice 19:09:10 and "ĐžĐČĐșĐ°Đ»" looks suspicious with its trailing "Đ»" 19:09:33 -!- [[ has changed nick to Noisytoot. 19:09:47 that's normal for past tense verbs 19:09:57 ah good 19:10:59 again that trailing ĐȘ 19:11:20 in "ĐžĐœĐžŃ€ŃƒĐ”ĐŒŃ‹Ń…ŃŠ"? it looks especially silly after an "х" 19:11:53 or do you mean in "ĐŒĐ°ĐœŃĐșĐŸĐŒŃŠ"? 19:13:24 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_sign#Final_yer_pre-1918 19:13:28 "Đ±Ń€Đ°Đ·ĐżĐ°ĐłĐŸĐœĐžĐșĐž" looks like a good fake word 19:21:13 `word --pokemon -o -4 20 19:21:14 re 19:21:19 ``` words --pokemon -o -4 20 19:21:20 rhypno luxe buizel mine crabra gastly sheliolitwig flygon foon mise smoem swamphan cate per quil celgon gole vestang maka arcant 19:21:40 ``` words --pokemon 20 19:21:41 carra rhyhorsea venusaur chirita tepin tyran oritarmada exploom grubi digon mushao bulbat dusken lopunne feebast aegiroc lumin skartic popotad staravile 19:21:50 exploom is nice 19:21:54 bulbat too 19:26:16 -!- ac9vn[m|gr] has joined. 19:26:28 -!- ac9vn[m|gr] has quit (K-Lined). 19:34:46 I like these symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script 19:37:43 ⰀⰁⰂⰃⰄⰅⰆⰇⰈⰉⰊⰋⰌⰍⰎⰏ 19:42:01 -!- ski has joined. 19:42:27 i like them too 19:43:13 -!- \a has left (Leaving). 19:47:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:53:31 someone said they are cute because of circles in most of them. I’d say they remind Greek-Latin-Cyrillic “continuum” but on the other hand are pretty alien, hence the effect. Tifinagh gives me a similar feeling 19:55:11 Arrival 19:55:31 but for instance Armenian script looks too alien to me, and less unique. I surely wouldn’t want to be an Armenian dyslectic 19:55:43 oh, hadn’t watched that one yet 19:57:14 arseniiv: I'm too used to all major scripts, the internet makes the world small, they don't look alien to me anymore 20:00:52 [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83190&oldid=83155 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+710) Added an introductory section and a reference section, and amended a mistake in the documentation of the Common Lisp implementation. 20:01:52 latin, russian, serbian cyrillic, greek, latin vietnamese, georgian, armenian, hebrew, arabic, persian, chinese kanji, japenese kanji plus kana, hangul, the more common brahmic scripts (devanagari, thai, bengali), latin braille are the ones I see the most often. you can still surprise me with the infinte variety of rarer ones, but not armenian. 20:03:04 and yes, it's the internet of geeks, so I also see akkadian cuneiform and futhark 20:03:16 hum, trying to comprehend how hackeso's umlbox works, can't seem to figure out how to get output out of it aha 20:03:27 (and old hungarian runes, always used in a very non-authentic way) 20:03:36 everything else worked after some quick fixes to init.c 20:05:02 cd: I used serial terminal in termbot, but I don't know how HackEso works 20:06:43 https://pybin.pw/LoXF seems it tries to use some tty device, but i'm not sure where ../tty1 is in that particular context 20:07:28 b_jonas: in a sense, many to me too, though I don’t read most of them at any rate. Mostly from translations on food packaging and instruction manuals. But Armenian, to continue the example, is alien in its, well, guiding principles or something. It’s strange how do they read fluently letters that are almost exclusively vertical bars. Someone said most cyrillic letters aren’t as legible as latin because there are less ascenders and 20:07:28 descenders, and often just vertical and horizontal strokes (in lowercase), and the first one seems worse. Though hand-written Armenian looked way more legible IIRC 20:08:36 [[RCEM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83191&oldid=83190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-52) /* References */ Use wikipedia link 20:09:37 arseniiv: well sure, but in the same sense you could say Chinese kanji is the most readable 20:10:14 well they are if you memorized them, I guess? 20:10:45 they are pretty distinct in mass, and also they have some underlying logic, though not a too sane one due to historic process 20:10:53 as for "exclusively vertical bars", that's how latin script was written in old codexes, so it depends on the font too 20:12:00 I wouldn’t say A C D G K M N O P Q R S U/V X Y Z would still be exclusively vertical bars 20:12:14 I mean look at the Gutenberg Bible, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG , which set the traditions for how high quality typeset books are supposed to look like, heavily based on handwritten books 20:12:19 or do you mean something like fractur? 20:12:37 arseniiv: you have to take lowercase letters, uppercase is rare comapratively 20:12:38 that’s evidently not too legible yeah 20:13:18 it's like you draw a sequence of identical vertical lines with serifs on the top and bottom, and modify them with tiny additions or subtractions to turn them to different letters 20:13:21 ah, so I definitely wasn’t right to think about as far as some roman inscriptions in all capitals 20:14:00 the roman inscriptions that you see in lapidariums? those are readable to us because the capitals in the Times style fonts that we are used to are based directly on them so they're very similar, 20:14:07 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG => yep yep that’s the worst 20:14:12 except that they use very different abbreviations and fewer spaces 20:14:17 how did they read poor people 20:14:52 and those abbreviations too, yeah, I read about their diversity and changes in time several months ago 20:15:09 Someone might want to arrange for the esolangs bot to be autovoiced. If someone were to hit it with a lot of URIs, it responding with a flood of URI details without at least voice status will trigger a flood notice to network staff, and one of our bots is currently configured to be twitchy about that (it will murder it). 20:15:53 arseniiv: which abbreviations did you read about? the ones in roman era engraving, or the ones in hand-written mediĂŠval latin codexes 20:16:22 b_jonas: mediĂŠval ones :) 20:16:52 the difference is that the mediĂŠval scribal ones use a lot of unique diacritics; the engraved latin ones are basically pure ascii latin letters with the occasional middle dot separator 20:19:32 I have photos of a bunch of old steles with text in various scripts engraved in them, from museums 20:19:35 they can look great 20:19:54 there are even a few with hieroglyphs carefully engraved as concave rather than convex 20:19:59 sorry, convex rather than concave 20:20:00 embossed 20:20:07 can you imagine doing that to marble? 20:20:36 of course that only happens in egyptian pyramids and similar 20:20:42 not for more practical scribal documents 20:20:57 those are all engraved the normal concave way 20:23:11 the one that looks the most impressive IRL (though not necessarily in photo) is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Stele_of_Ashurnasirpal_II_from_Nimrud 20:23:58 carved from a single block of stone, quite tall, and looms over you, because you can get very close to it, since it's exhibited without any glass or plastic case surrounding it 20:31:32 ^source 20:31:32 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 20:33:26 I am super close to getting umlbox working 20:33:31 just output being a pain 20:33:33 :< 20:33:42 stdout y u no work 20:33:44 can you imagine doing that to marble? => seems a lot of work! 20:35:21 ah 20:35:23 mudem is broke 20:40:30 fizzie: sorry for the poke, trying to get umlbox working and the one thing holding me up is stdout. Not sure how to get it to actually give me the result of the ran command atm 20:41:17 oh i see you have a umlbox fork :P 20:41:19 All I remember about it is, it's very temperamental. Especially when it comes to the output. 20:41:52 Yeah, if you want the specifics of how it's set up for HackEso, it's that version of umlbox, and then the hackbot repo shows how it's being invoked. 20:42:03 I think I mostly just did a rewritten init. 20:42:27 And I think my setup is mudem-free, because I didn't need any multiplexing. 20:42:32 -!- zgrep has joined. 20:44:13 https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Implementation_details might also have some useful tidbit in it, who knows. Probably not, though. 20:44:44 Thanks, atm I'm considering the feasability of rehosting hackeso, again. 20:44:52 just for fun mostly 20:45:10 whole setup is quite interesting aha 20:46:28 and I certainly noticed it's temperamental ^^; 20:55:53 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 21:05:02 -!- Lykaina has joined. 21:09:20 hi 21:10:31 hello Lykaina 21:10:45 you haven't been here for a while 21:11:01 -!- u0_a61 has joined. 21:12:38 Hi Lykaina 21:12:47 I should probably move over to Libera soonish 21:12:58 just setting up Libera 21:14:16 Sgeo: when you do, let me know 21:15:46 this is bridged 21:16:18 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:16:46 river: and publicly logged 21:17:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:20:32 oh shit 21:20:36 how do I delete my previous message 21:21:36 We should probably figure out a mechanism for that, actually. Though it's complicated by having it publicly logged to a bunch of independent places. 21:22:13 fizzie: I think there are multiple incompatible IRC extensions for that 21:22:39 at least one more native IRC one, and one that twitch uses to map its own message deletes 21:22:49 The name of this place almost makes me sad that we won't get people coming in here thinking it's about ghosts 21:23:06 Sgeo: We've got #esoteric redirected here, so it's still quite possible. 21:23:09 Sgeo: we will, because #esoteric redirects here 21:23:42 Sgeo: we might not have Canaima people coming in here, so we should submit a patch to Canaima to forward them here, plus keep some amount of presence on freenode/#esoteric to redirect anyone who arrives there 21:24:34 agh what a pain 21:24:40 i got everything working only for no output again 21:25:48 Canaima? 21:26:44 `? canaima 21:26:46 Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here. 21:27:49 is there any language or other math system that has no zero? 21:28:23 ancient phoenecian 21:28:31 I think it's like the old AOL install CDs, but they mistyped the contact phone number, so everyone arrives here 21:29:52 oh by the way, the television media card thingy that I just installed to my grandma's television (basically just follow the instructions on the paper manual to type in a few numbers and insert the card into the slot in the back of the TV) gives an error message that refers the user to an obsolete customer service short phone number that now call a different inappropriate service provider's customer 21:29:59 service 21:30:12 the short phone numbers keep changing every few years, probably as a method of obfuscations so fewer people reach customer services 21:30:31 like changing IRC networks 21:31:28 nakilon: there's Forte where you have to cope with some numbers being unusable, and there was another esolang with a similar property but with the set of unusable numbers fixed 21:31:40 nakilon: yes 21:31:48 but that doesn't happen every few yeras 21:32:09 I have entries inherited from around 2008 in my irc configuration that still work 21:32:12 channels 21:32:43 fizzie: do you happen to have any clue as to what causes stdout to just not work? 21:33:00 there should be a RAM with unusable memory addresses that correspond to prime numbers, preferably very large prime numbers 21:33:05 i have the entire multibot setup functional, it's just umlbox not cooperating now 21:33:26 nakilon: oh yeah, that exists too: 21:34:14 https://www.linusakesson.net/scene/safevsp/index.php 21:34:51 it mentions a case where you want to program such that every eighths byte in the memory is unusable 21:36:27 I remember how on 32 Windows every 4th gigabyte of 4 GB RAM was unusable 21:36:28 nakilon: prime numbers are easier, because there are large gaps between them, so if the memory is infinitely large, you can just choose a large enough contiguous subset. sure, it might require you to buy an exponentially larger sized memory chip, who cares, RAM is cheap 21:36:31 cd: Not really, just vague recollections that I've had problems with the output, especially when it comes to those con1/con2/con UML command-line arguments and getting them all right. 21:37:05 b_jonas ok, prime number div 100 21:38:21 There's something very unintuitive about what those parameters mean, especially when it comes to separate input and output designations. 21:39:16 I'm pretty sure I had it in a state at least once where the `-v` mode worked fine but had all that kernel output spam, while the non-verbose version just lost the command stdout somewhere. 21:40:09 Not impossible there's even some Linux kernel version differences, I've certainly had to do tweaking when upgrading the kernel. 21:40:13 or imagine the memory that rotates sometimes, like by 1 byte every second 21:41:13 and the growing end does not copy data from the dying start but fills with zeros 21:41:35 I think I might have it working on Debian's UML kernel at the moment, rather than a self-built one. Maybe. Can't tell from my notes. 21:42:09 btw about notes that you can't tell from 21:42:26 is it also common in other countries that it's damn impossible to read what doctors write? 21:42:39 https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA+%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0&rlz=1C1SQJL_ruRU840RU840&sxsrf=ALeKk03EOZnntQ-kI9YTsmdda1hgQS0vdA:1621719750655&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-s6btoN7wAhXjl4sKHfJmAGMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1279&bih=684&dpr=2 21:42:44 Actually, looks like it's built from Debian's `user-mode-linux` package sources but with patching. 21:42:59 And I think doctors' handwriting is one of those classic things to joke about, so probably. 21:43:53 nakilon: that would just be like old DRAMs with no built-in refresh logic, so you have to refresh them from the CPU 21:44:05 I just looked at like 10 of these images and could not understand a single word, neither I could do about my own medical book 21:44:14 also, 21:44:39 ais523: you're fizzie's second-in-command, do you have any opinion to weigh in about the future of #esoteric after all the freenode drama? I'd like to hear 21:45:00 nakilon: yes, that's common 21:45:23 nakilon: pharmacists train hard to be able to read it, and then they tell stories about particular doctors where even they can't read the handwriting 21:46:04 (also about stupid doctors who write readable but stupid instructions, for which they have to check and filter out to not harm the patient too much, but that's less funny) 21:46:19 they should have a special font now when it's computerised 21:46:46 called kshfjdbhfj.ttf 21:47:32 that said, my handwriting is unreadable too 21:47:48 and it's very different from my brother's handwriting 21:47:53 maybe you have medical talents you didn't develop 21:48:01 no, it's my brother who's the doctor 21:48:03 fizzie: I'm not sure it's even attempting to run the kernel, judging from the --verbose output 21:48:07 * cd sighs 21:48:55 or rather, i'm getting no output from the kernel 21:49:50 running the command myself "works" (tmp file since deleted) 21:51:21 https://pybin.pw/He0C atm this is the most it tells me 21:52:27 -!- u0_a61 has changed nick to Wezl. 21:52:35 lol issue closed https://github.com/sjvasquez/handwriting-synthesis/issues/9 22:05:23 ok wtf, uml is very much being tempermental 22:06:58 > ioctl /random: bad address 22:07:00 error: 22:07:00 Variable not in scope: ioctl :: g -> (a, g)error: 22:07:00 ‱ Variable not in scope: bad :: t0 -> [g -> (a, g)] 22:07:04 [[User talk:AlvinBalvin321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83192&oldid=76349 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+4720) /* ? */ 22:11:29 output now works by removing random entirely, but writing to env doesn't seem to function 22:16:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs. 22:16:44 `` cat $(which "\`") 22:16:45 ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnoooooodl 22:17:31 wthat the heck? 22:17:33 `quote 22:17:33 1030) your first mistake was making your second mistake 22:17:43 `` which rnoooooodl 22:17:44 No output. 22:17:47 `` cat $(which rnoooooodl) 22:17:48 No output. 22:18:01 `` grep -R / rnoooooodl 22:18:04 grep: rnoooooodl: No such file or directory 22:18:10 `` grep -R rnoooooodl / 22:18:44 Oh, that thing. 22:18:46 grep: /etc/alternatives/my.cnf: No such file or directory 22:18:59 river: It's actually got a few less 'o's in it. 22:19:12 `cbt ` 22:19:13 ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl 22:19:33 But when you're *actually* running through it, it adds more. 22:19:46 `cbt rnooodl 22:19:47 perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge' 22:19:48 Of coursee 22:24:07 I hate rnoodl, and I hate bin/\` for using it 22:24:40 bin/\`\` too 22:24:59 I always wanted to just remove it from bin/\` and bin/\`\` but I don't dare 22:25:04 it can stay in the wisdom commands 22:32:28 -!- amdj has left (part (v.): to be or become separated from something else). 22:38:31 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 22:39:08 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:42 -!- velik has joined. 22:53:45 when I was coding in RASEL I needed to make some large number and it appeared to be less trivial to do that in Befunge 22:54:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:54:11 in Befunge you just :*:*:*:* to increase it rapidly but it's more complicated when you don't have a multiplication operation 22:56:12 so you can either have a large N and repeat :1\// 22:57:28 or maybe do some 1 / (1/N - 1/M) but I'm not 100% sure it would be any faster per cycle 22:58:17 but may make the path towards the number you need more interesting 23:01:17 annnd hackbot copy is now mostly working(tm) 23:01:30 `revision 23:01:30 nice 23:01:31 revision? No such file or directory 23:06:22 Whoops, need to flip a setting. 23:06:35 -!- esolangs has joined. 23:06:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs. 23:09:14 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist). 23:15:31 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 23:16:09 Perhaps the most esoteric thing of all, a minutely more descriptive channel name 23:17:58 [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83193&oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+737) 23:21:57 -!- xx has joined. 23:22:19 -!- xx has left. 23:23:19 oh "profession" would have fit in the religious theme 2021-05-23: 00:07:41 Non Terrestrial Or Terrestrial Beings which can help me with Trans Universal Transportation (Please PM Me)9 00:07:58 wat 00:10:06 cd: it's just the usual "psychic needed, you know where to apply" call. if you don't have alien technology to time travel and build pyramids, don't worry about it. 00:10:41 [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83194&oldid=83191 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-460) Changed the Common Lisp interpreter, basing it upon a hash table instead of a vector, such that a potentially infinite tally of cells as well as a negative indices become possible. 00:10:43 i found some funny looking shapes in my back yard, i bet aliens did it 00:12:58 Not bridging joins and parts makes those things come a bit out of the blue, but bridging them would be just awful. 00:23:00 -!- sprock has joined. 00:27:52 `` cat $(which mkx) 00:27:53 key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key" 00:28:17 `` cat $(which mk) 00:28:18 ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key" 00:41:15 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 00:41:19 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t. 00:41:22 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 00:42:37 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out. 00:50:24 Needs some actual integration work, for now I'm just running a parallel instance of the exact same frontend except with a different root path. 00:59:38 fizzie: yeah, you told us that you're using an IRC library called IIRC "multibot" that you find hard to adapt to what you want 01:00:40 multibot is hackeso's lib. Now that i've looked through it, it's... interesting 01:00:50 very weird tbh 01:05:19 Yeah, multibot's for HackEso, and it is pretty quirky. For esolangs (logging, wiki recent changes, bridging) I'm using my own custom C++ thing, so any deficiencies in it I can just blame on myself. 01:06:04 tbh multibot is so simplistic it probably isn't too hard to write a replacement 01:06:28 it's just over 600 lines of C 01:06:30 not bad 01:07:15 Yeah, it's like the bare minimum of C to handle parsing the IRC protocol, and executing external executables (or scripts) in response to events. 01:07:29 It doesn't even do the sockets, it relies on socat for that. 01:09:24 The other bot's basically https://github.com/fis/bracket/ which is my homegrown single-threaded C++ event loop and other utilities of inconsistent quality. 01:10:43 I sort of have a long-term plan to write my own IRC client thingy. I have some existing IRC code that is terrible but contains useful notes about the IRC protocol and freenode that I'll be able to use. 01:16:51 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:26:19 -!- dbohdan has joined. 01:56:48 Ada (or a specific compiler actually) has magic variable names: 01:56:49 "Or give the variable a name that contains any of the strings discard dummy ignore junk unused (case insensitive) 01:56:49 " 01:56:57 (To suppress unused variable warnings) 02:11:12 -!- kluk has joined. 02:13:49 [[Numberlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4915) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Numberlang |author=[[User:Batata|Batata]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |class=[[Turing Complete|Turing Complete]] |files=.numl }} '''Num..." 02:14:55 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 02:16:15 [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83196&oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4) /* Reverse Cat */ 02:17:43 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83197&oldid=83163 * Batata * (-479) 02:18:54 -!- user3456 has joined. 02:19:06 Reminds me of GCC's magic fall-thru comment, with a configurable sensitivity. 02:19:21 https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html -Wimplicit-fallthrough=n 02:20:31 Level 2 matches /.*falls?[ \t-]*thr(ough|u).*/ case-insensitively, but it's the list of level 3 that's really the amusing one. 02:21:25 With gems like: [ \t.!]*([Ee]lse,? |[Ii]ntentional(ly)? )? fall(s | |-)?thr(ough|u)[ \t.!]*(-[^\n\r]*)? 02:21:56 Though I guess comments for silencing warnings or linters are a little more common. 02:22:24 There was definitely something (else) where you could do an `unused_` prefix on variables though. 02:23:16 I think that's pylint. 02:23:31 the very first major mod to hackbot i made was allowing it to use /me 02:23:40 because yes 02:30:27 I found a NSA document; it looks like it was printed out from a MediaWiki-based web page and then OCR to convert it to text. 02:31:07 Presumably not our wiki, though? 02:35:29 huh 02:38:31 -!- cd has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:38:42 -!- cd1 has joined. 02:41:13 -!- cd1 has changed nick to cd. 02:42:04 [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83198&oldid=83182 * HaleyHalcyon * (-13) 02:42:08 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:45:09 [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83199&oldid=83196 * Batata * (+18) 02:46:00 [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83200&oldid=83199 * Batata * (+16) /* Cat */ 02:47:47 [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83201&oldid=83200 * Batata * (+18) /* Truth-Machine */ 03:19:02 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 8Epic8 * New user account 03:26:23 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83202&oldid=83175 * 8Epic8 * (+167) 03:57:35 Sgeo: some languages use variables starting with an underscore to suppress unused variable warnings: in perl and rust it really just suppresses the warnings (in perl you rarely need it because the warning only applies to globals, not lexical locals), but I think in some languages (was it Prolog? Haskell? I can't remember) it is more magical and makes them unique even if the name is repeated 03:58:01 fizzie: if it's from our wiki, my guess is the BANCStar one 04:00:36 fizzie: as for the fallthrough, there's now also a new-style attribute [[fallthrough]] for that (both in C and C++) 05:04:44 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ilaylevy * moved [[Yogurt]] to [[Dead]] 05:05:31 [[Dead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83205&oldid=83203 * Ilaylevy * (+7) 05:40:55 TIL from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyixMpuGEL8 why the transparency or alpha channel of images is sometimes called the "matte" channel 06:25:52 [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83206&oldid=57054 * Bangyen * (+108) 06:46:49 Write about ZZT, Free Hero Mesh, tarot cards, and the gemini protocol in the wisdom file, next. 06:47:47 `? tarot 06:47:48 tarot? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 06:53:23 I'm really thinking about drawing a line in an IRC bot between handlers that are hardcoded in it and those that are deployed as a different app serverless 06:55:13 the hot reload capability would stop relying on bot implementation/language ability to do it 06:58:18 essentially since Ruby is very dynamic it's trivial and you use the "load" method that reloads the file where you put your "constants", methods and methods stored in constants (constants are identifiers of Modules) but there is still a room for coder's error about the runtime state 06:59:19 while writing the serverless app you are supposed to think stateless and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once 06:59:54 another approach would be just to call a subprocess of course 07:01:01 but that would still need you to update the source code on bot machine that is another risk to kill the bot 07:35:26 -!- dbohdan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:36:20 -!- dbohdan has joined. 07:40:32 Does anyone know an easy-to-compute metric on permutations of letters such that "carthorse" is close to "horsecart" but far from "orchestra"? 07:46:14 today's gif and these comments remind me how I (always unsuccessfully) try to teach people IRC https://i.imgur.com/ZH7715s.png 07:49:39 Taneb: you could measure the distances the letters moved. 07:50:11 find all positions of the letters in the first word in the second word, compute their differences, add the differences up. 07:50:25 Taneb if it exists it should be somewhere here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_metric 07:50:29 either that or something like that via hamming distance. 07:50:44 imode: that would make carthorse far from horsecart, wouldn't it? 07:51:03 Taneb: yeah, valid. you could use some form of common edit distance algorithm. 07:51:58 there's probably something efficient for the permutations case.. hm. 07:52:41 maybe adding and then taking the average? 07:52:44 * imode shrugs 07:52:58 Hmm, what about something with adjacencies? 07:54:10 [[I-ok]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83207 * Kwes * (+784) Created page with "= i-ok = A small 1 digit esolang, for simple 1 letter usage. {| class="wikitable" |+ |- ! chars !! desc |- | i+ or i++ || adds |- | i- or i-- || subtracts |- | i* || multiple..." 07:54:13 actually if you let the differences be negative, it might cancel out. 07:54:29 [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83208&oldid=83207 * Kwes * (-9) 07:55:50 also there is nothing matching here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_distance 07:56:00 so I assume the problem just isn't solved yet or is unsolvable 07:57:27 if you can assume that the string can be split only in two you may try to build something on top of length(str) splits 07:59:55 or 08:02:02 str.chars.each_cons(2).sort.map(&:join) 08:02:12 results in 08:02:18 ["ar", "ca", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se", "th"] 08:02:25 ["ar", "ca", "ec", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se"] 08:02:26 ["ch", "es", "he", "or", "ra", "rc", "st", "tr"] 08:03:09 and now you implement Levenshtein between these "two-byte-char" string 08:05:22 you see here it's distance 2 between carthorse and horsecart 08:07:36 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83209&oldid=83094 * Kwes * (+11) added I-ok 08:09:43 [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83210&oldid=83208 * Kwes * (+23) 08:11:13 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83211&oldid=83210 * Kwes * (+0) 08:11:33 [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83212&oldid=83211 * Kwes * (+1) 08:12:00 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83213&oldid=83212 * Kwes * (+1) 08:12:36 you could maybe do some substring matching like the bioinformatics people do all the time to find the string "horse" in both occurences, remove it and repeat 08:12:51 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83214&oldid=83213 * Kwes * (+0) 08:14:51 O(n)=python 08:18:12 [[User:Kwes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83215&oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+23) 08:19:30 if you make some reasonable threshold, it should perform pretty well 08:21:56 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83216&oldid=83214 * Kwes * (+30) 08:22:57 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83217&oldid=83216 * Kwes * (-6) 08:22:59 if you don't know in how many substrings it should be splitted it's N^N 08:23:17 you try h, ho, hor, hors, horse on each level 08:23:22 if I understood you correctly 08:24:34 i wouldn't try it that way. there should be algorithms to find longest substrings in O(n^2). you go through that as long as the substring you find is larger than something like O(sqrt(n)) to allow for reasonable shrinking and after that you just do levensthein or something 08:35:00 oh btw, in my approach you don't need the O(n^2) levenshtein, because lists are sorted already 08:35:51 so it's O(n) to split, O(n log n) to sort and then O(n) again to calculate distance 08:36:08 n+m, whatever 08:37:19 how would you do that in your example? "horse" cannot be put together by two-byte-strings 08:38:52 I don't put the horse together, I operate is as a ["ho", "or", "rs", "se"] sorted array 08:40:25 you can see this subarray included in two arrays in my copypasta above but not in the third one because there was no horse in it 08:40:49 sure it depends on the length of strings, it they are 100 chars long there might be fake horses 08:41:39 *if 09:02:16 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- simcop2387 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- keegan has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- sprock has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- sknebel has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- shikhin has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- V has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:16 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:17 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 09:05:32 \help 09:05:44 is prefix \ bot-free currently? 09:07:43 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 09:07:43 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 09:07:43 -!- sprock has joined. 09:07:43 -!- jix has joined. 09:07:43 -!- lambdabot has joined. 09:07:43 -!- keegan has joined. 09:07:43 -!- V has joined. 09:07:43 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:07:43 -!- shikhin has joined. 09:07:43 -!- sknebel has joined. 09:07:43 -!- int-e has joined. 09:13:39 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- simcop2387 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- keegan has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- sprock has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- sknebel has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- shikhin has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- V has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:39 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 09:19:46 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 09:19:46 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 09:19:46 -!- sprock has joined. 09:19:46 -!- jix has joined. 09:19:46 -!- lambdabot has joined. 09:19:46 -!- keegan has joined. 09:19:46 -!- V has joined. 09:19:46 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:19:46 -!- shikhin has joined. 09:19:46 -!- sknebel has joined. 09:19:46 -!- int-e has joined. 09:20:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:28:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:38:15 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:29:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:32:45 -!- lleo has joined. 11:38:02 -!- Thelie has joined. 11:53:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nooder Coob * New user account 12:06:25 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83218&oldid=83202 * Nooder Coob * (+355) /* Introductions */ 12:06:36 "and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once" -- forget this, since the commands I want to deploy are made in a supported language you can run Cloud Functions instead if Cloud Run so it's already solved on their side 12:07:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:19:14 [[DotSnap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (+1094) Created page with "== DotSnap Language == ==== What is the DotSnap Language ==== The DotSnap Language is a language dedicated to my stupidity, craziness, and vast imagination yet bounded with my..." 12:25:24 what a description 12:26:24 b_jonas: Go doesn't use an underscore prefix, but it does make the plain _ a special "blank identifier", which you can use for unused parameters, or in a multi-value assignment for values you don't care about, or a few other similar cases. And you can freely repeat it. 12:28:25 in ruby _ is a valid identifier and also you are allowed to use the same identifier as parameters or multi-vaue assignment, so people use _ in the same way 12:30:42 Speaking of bot architectures, I did almost complete a refactoring once of our esowiki/esolangs bot where I left just the "critical" bits (IRC connection management and channel logging) in the executable, and all other logic would have been in separate processes that connect to it over an RPC thing and register for callbacks for events they care about. Mostly to avoid having to restart it so often when 12:30:48 messing about, and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks. Not quite as cloudy, but a bit in that direction. 12:33:03 -!- lleo has left (Leaving). 12:37:31 zzo38: Oh, by the way -- you might have said something once about ignoring the wiki updates? I made the same bot (esowiki) do the bridge from the experimental Libera channel, so if you're ignoring it completely you might have been missing out on discussions happening over there. Sorry about that. 12:45:28 Taneb: does it only have to work on words without repetitions? 12:48:09 The letter bigram bag distance thing sounded reasonable to me. 12:48:42 fizzie: "the plain _" => yes, the plain underscore is a special keyword in rust too, when you use it in a pattern it can behave differently from using a variable that you only mention once 12:49:20 fizzie: a refactor of esowiki? nice 12:50:01 "and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks" => what happens when the web server breaks like it sometimes does from lurk mode? 12:51:28 Fortunately that already doesn't affect logging, just serving, since it's already a separate process. In the post-refactoring model, it'd probably be much the same, except it'd use the standard RPC mechanism instead of the custom-built protocol it now does to implement stalker mode. 12:52:09 If you can call "connect to a socket and just read protos from it" a protocol. Well, maybe: both contain the substring "proto". But I digress. 12:53:43 Incidentally, stalker mode doesn't yet work for this channel's logs. 12:54:00 an RPC mechanism? in my vague plans for the vaporware irc client, the process that keeps the IRC connection alive and does only a few things so you rarely need to replace it just logs (almost) all traffic from the IRC connections into an append-only file, plus notifies subscribers after the file changes, that's the whole RPC mechanism for reading. of course that just pushes the harder part to other 12:54:07 components. writing would be a bit more complicated. 12:55:31 That's a reasonable model too. I was going to use the "brpc" system, because, well, because it's there. 12:55:31 [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83220&oldid=83197 * Batata * (+1) 12:55:32 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:55:42 admittedly reading also might be complicated, because I might want to exclude some sensitive information like passwords from the logfile yet temporarily relay them to a reader process 12:57:21 though I could put them to a separate short-term logfile 12:57:34 I dunno, ideally I never want to handle passwords read from IRC again 12:57:55 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83221&oldid=83217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) Clarify 12:58:10 [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83222&oldid=83221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) fix 12:58:44 I got the impression one of Libera's (well, Solanum's) vendor-specific IRCv3 mechanisms was this thing where you get an account tag for every message, so that clients can easily know which identified user account a message came from. 12:58:51 fizzie: Is there a regular expression to distinguish the messages? 12:59:01 fizzie: freenode already has a mechanism for that 12:59:24 I even have a bad implementation for it that works correctly and so I can use it as reference for a good implementation 12:59:46 the protocol details are a bit complicated because it consists of three different parts: 13:00:02 zzo38: All the bridged messages start with " ..." and all the wiki updates start with "[[Page title]]", though the latter has color codes in it. 13:00:42 So I guess ^< should work for detecting the bridged traffic. You can see how they look like in the logs, of course. 13:01:06 (1) you use extended WHO to read the account names when you join a channel, (2) you can opt in to the server sending extended JOIN messages that contain the account name of anyone joining later, and (3) you can opt in to ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account (by logging in to nickserv or logging out) 13:01:23 I didn't know there was a new mechanism 13:01:45 do they also have a tag to identify connections uniquely even if they're not joined to a channel? 13:01:46 I didn't look at it so closely. Actually, looks like there's a standard IRCv3 tag: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/account-tag 13:01:54 as in, when they're private message me 13:02:09 That one ^ should do, since it's in every message. 13:02:12 fizzie: well ok, but does libera actually implement that? 13:02:35 fizzie: well that's more useful, though not quite what I asked about 13:02:36 I didn't really find the docs of the Libera/Solanum tag, so I only had a very vague impression it was something similar. 13:03:16 From a Libera server: Capabilities supported: account-notify away-notify chghost extended-join multi-prefix sasl tls account-tag cap-notify echo-message solanum.chat/identify-msg solanum.chat/realhost 13:03:35 So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg". 13:03:46 I also want a uniqe tag to identify the connection to the server, even for unidentified nicks, so that if a nick privmsgs me twice and they're not joined a channel, I can tell if they're the same connection, and more usefully, to send a private message that the server won't deliver to an unrelated person with the same nick who connected or nicked to that nick shortly before I send them the message 13:04:09 I know you can send a message to a nick!user@host as an approximation, but that's just not the same 13:04:36 and I know the servers do have such unique tags, they use them when the servers talk to each other 13:05:12 "I didn't really find the docs" => thanks, I can just ask on #libera after the drama gets lower, the freenode admins were usually very helpful about that sort of thing 13:05:37 https://github.com/solanum-ircd/solanum/pull/4 implements it, and the comments said they're working on making those URLs link to the documentation, but they didn't yet. 13:06:08 Looking at the code, it's probably something else. 13:08:31 there are also some other small but useful features of freenode's old server and services that libera still supports and that I'm glad for, such as that it resends the 005 replies when you ask for VERSION -- not every IRC server does that, and it's a nice QOL improvement that lets you more safely make it possible that you can emergency hot-restart even the process that is connected to IRC while keeping 13:08:37 the connection alive even if it has a memory corruption and so its knowledge about its connections is mangled 13:08:43 and yes, I know that's a stupid thing and I'd never do that in production, but still 13:10:47 those 005 reply lines helpfully contain my nickname and the nick/channel case folding rule, all of which are really essential state to follow an IRC connection, and contain the network name, useful when you inherit multiple sockets and have no idea which one is supposed to be what 13:14:34 I wish the IRC protocol was at least built such that when the server sends you a NICK/JOIN/PART/KICK message, it distinguishes whether it applies to your connection or someone else, so you don't have to know your own nick, which can change, to decide, but that seems too late to fix 13:15:21 but I haven't seen an extension that does that 13:15:50 for PRIVMSG/NOTICE it's easy, you only get a PRIVMSG targeting a nick if it's you 13:25:25 I guess that's like the sort of things that compiler authors face when there's an existing programming language that used to be well-defined but then optimization technology marches on and suddenly they have to figure out exact semantics of what the optimizer is allowed to do, in smaller scale 13:27:11 and then people who write interesting C or C++ or Rust programs also want to know the exact semantics to tell whether current or future optimizers are allowed to break their code 13:28:17 and then you have to go to freenode/#freenode to ask about the guarantees of how the servers are in a forest, there can't be cycles, and what that implies about the ordering of messages originating from other servers, or to oftc/#llvm to ask about the optimization guarantees for floating point vector addition 13:28:42 even though in production code you wouldn't want really to rely on those guarantees anyway 13:28:54 it's not just me that happens to, right? I mean this is #esoteric 13:31:57 and then you wonder about how that limits future optimizers, including how you'll have to modify TCP when we colonize Mars and then make an IRC-like thing that allows cycles and breaks those guarantees when we colonize a third place with pairwise significant light-speed limit information delay among the three 13:37:24 I'm worried about the TCP thing by the way. with how slow updating basic infrastructure like that is, I really hope someone is working on suitable protocols in advance. there are a lot of theoretical problems, like you can't continue https anywhere if you want to cache webpages on every planet for faster reaction time without everyone who makes webpages having to pay for a server on every planet and 13:37:30 moon. there might be a rebound from https anywhere to allowing caching HTTP proxies for that. at least I hope so, because the alternative where only big companies like facebook and google can host webpages would suck. 13:41:01 Hmm, well. I think Cloudflare's CDN services are pretty affordable (they've got that whole Cloudflare for Individuals free tier and all), but it would be kind of a shame if you'd be *forced* to rely on services like that. 13:41:40 huh, why can't I log in to the internet bank? did they break the webpage? 13:41:53 They moved it to Mars. 13:42:23 fizzie: they might be affordable *right now*, perhaps still if we only have presence on two or three planets (like how now many providers have one server in Europe, one in America, and one in Australia) 13:42:34 but that doesn't scale well to a Galactic Empire 13:43:12 fizzie: they could, but they'd notify me of changes that can potentially cause difficulties in accessing the internetbank interface 13:43:16 good, now the webpage reacted 13:44:35 Cloudflare's CDN presumably has a *lot* of Points of Presence on Earth, so from a simple numbers perspective, if you lower the density to one / celestial body, I think you can cover a lot of ground^W space. Though the way interstellar commerce works might turn out to be *quite* different. 13:46:28 We have a bank we no longer have any products from, and they didn't say anything about what happens to the online banking credentials. So I tried it out (once right after, and once a week later), and both times it gave all the signs of passing through a login page, but then when it should have shown the landing dashboard page, the first time it gave an error message, and the second time it just gave a 13:46:34 blank page with an URL that had an error code in it. 13:46:57 I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products. 13:47:37 I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly". But I'm not sure I want to start calling their customer support about it, especially now that I can't do it via a message sent through the online system. 13:49:54 maybe we invent practical homomorphic encryption by then (plus obviously bigger and faster hardware available for cheap, which I sort of assume with space colonization), that would make this easier, the user would just download a cached copy of a large snapshot of the state of the bank encrypted homomorphically and run it on their own machine or on the ISP's beefy box 13:50:25 and that state would verify your login details and send you the SMS for two-factor authentication 13:50:39 I mean it presumably wouldn't still be SMS, just some analog 13:52:16 -!- leah2 has joined. 13:53:07 "I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products." => there's a bank where I have some rights to a relative's account, but no own account with them. there are silly limitations that they do to me for this: I can't buy the service where I can authenticate myself on telephone so they can give me help on phone about their 13:53:13 services that I can access on the relative's account, even though the account owner could get such a service for free with their account. 13:55:01 "I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly"." => they can't do that, there might still be things you want to do with a closed account on internet bank, like inform them about changes in your address or review transactions that are resolved after you closed your account where someone else claimed you payed for it from your account earlier but there was a delay, or transactions where 13:55:07 you potentially fraudulently tried to pay or write a cheque after your account was closed, or repeating online payments where the other side tries to incur a fee because they don't know you have closed your account 13:55:36 I think if you have a bank account, even if you close everything, the bank has to keep some information about it "forever", or at least for a lot of years 13:56:48 Well, fair, but they could certainly invalidate my login credentials completely, instead of having them still "work" for logging into an error page. 13:56:55 this sort of applies to a lot of businesses, but with much shorter terms, because everyone else has shorter limitations for how long they are allowed to try to say you owe them money after you stopped doing business with them than for how long you can claim that your bank owes you money 13:57:19 yes, logging into an error page is probably not the correct behavior 13:58:03 I'm also interested in what they'll do about the last annual statement, which they've so far sent only electronically, which I would normally download from the website. 13:58:16 Hopefully they'll just mail it this one time. 13:59:21 (Not that I really need one, except to complete the set.) 13:59:46 I don't think they will snail mail you the statement after you asked them to send only electronically, because some clients do that because they worried that unauthorized people steal snail mail from their postbox and the snail mail has sensitive personal information 14:00:07 you can probably get the statement if you walk in in person and ask them, or maybe ask them to mail it to you 14:10:03 does brpc stand for befunge rpc? 14:13:09 "ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account" -- does you get these messages when someone does nickserv identify? 14:14:06 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:14:14 16:03:35 So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg". -- oh this is it mentioned I guess 14:14:28 nakilon: yes, but only if you opt into it with CAP or CAPAB or some such message 14:14:52 and if you and them share a joined channel at the time 14:15:04 s/such message/such magic/ 14:15:18 and this is for freenode, I haven't tested anything on libera 14:16:36 I guess I'll give in to the move for now, part freenode/#esoteric, and trust the bridge 14:17:58 well I lost it somewhere around Mars colonization 14:19:18 s/does you get/do you get 14:20:26 b_jonas still when you get the message from someone who's not on your channels you don't immediately see his state 14:21:08 and so you have to do additional requests to server and during that time user could be replaced 14:24:06 nakilon: yes, if they're not on a channel, you can't even tell if a second message they send is from a different connection with the same nick!user@host 14:24:34 also if you send someone a private message, even if they are on channels when you send the message, because there's a race condition 14:24:53 the practical solution to this is to not use privmsgs in situations where you care about this, just use channels, since creating channels is so easy 14:25:00 rare case when GCP docs have things not described well enough https://cloud.google.com/functions/docs/securing/authenticating#exchanging_a_self-signed_jwt_for_a_google-signed_id_token so I don't understand how to fully build those damn JWT request 14:25:19 will have to attach GCP SDK to make Function requests ( 14:25:28 in order to have them authorized 14:25:34 oauth magic? 14:25:43 or google apis? 14:26:16 the "Generating tokens manually" instead of using SDK that has all this magic inside 14:27:07 there is also "Generating tokens programmatically" that I might need to do only once too, but there is no Ruby among snippets, lol 14:27:20 and I'm just lazy to install others 14:27:42 ah yes. "only once". and then you can throw away the logs for how you did that, because you'll surely never need to do it again. 14:27:58 "surely" 14:28:16 no, actually I never throw magic away and attach it as comments everywhere 14:28:50 yeah, you have experience 14:29:36 that's rather seen practice than painful experience 14:30:17 back in 2013 when I saw the corporate wiki in the company that was full of people who are interested in their jobs 14:31:05 job security by obscurity? 14:31:20 what does that mean 14:33:54 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:35:27 I mean it was an awesome wiki that was very helpful, I was quickly finding snippets of other guys, and was easily building the picture of company projects; so I was learning all the wiki abilities to create documentation of our department and it felt like a correct thing to work on 14:35:47 great 14:35:55 since then I'm accumulating notes and tend to commit them rather than throw away 14:36:07 job security by obscurity is the opposite of that, when you don't document how you do your magic, so they can only do it by asking you 14:36:31 ah ye, I call it a sysadmin style 14:50:46 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:52:14 -!- river has joined. 15:16:01 `help 15:16:01 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch [] " downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral. 15:17:40 \o/ 15:17:42 \o/ 15:18:23 `relcome 15:18:25 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 15:18:43 ` grep -Ri freenode 15:18:43 ​? Permission denied 15:18:49 ` grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV 15:18:50 ​? Permission denied 15:19:10 ` cat $HACKENV/* | grep -i freenode 15:19:11 ​? Permission denied 15:21:42 there's some more (unfinished) help at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hackeso 15:21:53 sorry, at https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso 15:23:46 ` which grep 15:23:47 ​? Permission denied 15:23:54 `run which grep 15:23:55 ​/bin/grep 15:24:01 `run grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV 15:24:33 Binary file /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/ick matches \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FIL 15:24:40 brctl: help 15:24:40 brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands 15:24:52 -I to ignore binary files I guess 15:24:58 `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV 15:25:24 brctl: help ignore 15:25:24 brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message 15:25:24 hah. int freenode 15:25:28 ​/hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/ 15:25:38 `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | grep -v 'int freenode' 15:25:40 `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | wc -l 15:26:00 fizzie: by the way, the 005 replies claim that the name of this network is libera.chat, not libera, as far as the servers are concerned 15:26:14 No output. 15:26:16 No output. 15:27:04 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83223&oldid=83103 * B jonas * (+652) /* Communications */ possible move from freenode 15:27:05 001 too 15:28:00 As I understand from the web presence, "Libera.Chat" is the proper name of the network, and "Libera Chat" the organization that runs it. 15:28:38 fizzie: I'm mostly wondering what syntax for the network brctl: ignore accepts, but I don't want to know enough to experiment with it 15:29:08 Oh. It's all manually configured, so the names are just "libera" and "freenode" because that's what I put in the file. 15:29:43 that said, I'm going to call the network libera too 15:29:47 probably 15:30:18 I think it's unambiguous enough in context, for the purposes of things like IRC commands and URLs where brevity is appreciated. 15:30:36 I care about 15:30:53 I mostly care about the network name in 005 because it's a useful thing to double-check in a bot to avoid silly misconfiguration mistakes 15:31:14 it's not something I can trust, because a malicious IRC client can lie that they're part of freenode in that field 15:35:35 Here's a thing I should fix: if I use Emacs Magit mode to make a commit, and it's one of these repositories where I've configured commit.gpgsign=true to sign all commits, and I haven't authenticated to the GPG agent recently, it will try to ask for a key passphrase in a way that goes horribly wrong. 15:37:11 The curses pinentry dialog will pop up in some unrelated terminal, and in such a mode that the keypresses will be only partially (seemingly at random) interpreted by the passphrase entry dialog, and the others will be echoed, and the only way I have to recover is to kill the pending git command and the pinentry process. 15:38:05 It works fine when executed from a regular terminal though, but it's some sort of an interaction with running Emacs in a server. I'm sure someone's figured it out, I just haven't. 15:45:11 I called it libera in weechat at least 15:45:36 Yea that’s what I called it in my bouncer 15:54:39 fizzie: oops 15:58:18 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out. 16:08:05 liberated church? what does that mean lol 16:10:09 nakilon: I started out with "libera" and the rest is word association games 16:11:03 bot should make up new topic 16:12:58 basically I was just one-upping myself anyway (see topic on fr**node) 16:13:35 woah 16:14:02 while trying to escape the JSON dumped RASEL code for echo and curl it seems that I've created a file 16:14:09 and it's named /?@,Gj"dlroW ,olleH\">/?@,Gj" 16:14:24 with both slashes, and I thought it's impossible to create files with / 16:15:22 good thing I have a GUI or I won't be able to remove it 16:18:44 nakilon: it's possible to create files with slashes in their names on windows, just not the usual way you use the API. 16:19:21 (and it's inadvisable) 16:21:29 -!- mich181189 has joined. 16:46:30 "Unexpected internal error" 16:46:33 thank you google 16:47:18 I use Windows only for gaming 17:13:09 fine, I'll give up and rely on preinstalled gcloud sdk 17:27:56 -!- tech_exorcist_ has joined. 17:30:12 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:38:21 I had: i /:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :/i But, I will change it now; let's try 17:39:02 Maybe now it will work; let's see 17:39:27 This is a message from the bridge, so if you saw it, it worked. 17:39:33 No, that won't work 17:39:56 Right, I guess it doesn't prove that it suitably ignored one of the wiki updates. 17:40:05 OK, I tried again. 17:40:18 This time, I can receive the message; it worked 17:43:01 can you make the bridge drop every message containing the word fnord 17:43:35 also drop messages randomly for confusion 17:43:41 good idea! 17:43:43 or replacing the nicknames 17:44:36 adding typos 17:45:01 Can private messages by sent by this bridge, or public only? (Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?) 17:45:40 it's just a bot, whatever user can do it does 17:47:08 (Of course, if private messages are supported at all, then the bridge operator can potentially see them meaning it isn't so private, but still. Of course, so can the IRC server operators.) 17:48:07 -!- Soni has joined. 17:48:29 brctl: help ignore 17:48:29 brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message 17:49:25 brctl: ignore Soni 17:49:25 brctl: ignoring 17:50:30 hi o/ 17:52:58 brctl: ignore zzo38 17:52:58 brctl: ignoring 17:55:24 zzo38: "Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?" => my old bridge cbstream supported sending private messages, but not receiving them 17:55:56 I think fizzie's bot only forwards one or two channel, not private messages, but you'll have to ask them 18:02:40 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:06:39 -!- chibi has joined. 18:10:35 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vivax * New user account 18:11:22 yo 18:11:31 yuo should do a GCF 18:11:38 or move to ##esolangs 18:11:44 the # vs ## thing sucks 18:12:08 huh? 18:12:28 Is esolangs a registered project/community? 18:12:39 it's being worked on 18:12:50 https://libera.chat/chanreg 18:14:17 GCF was created to support the efforts of developing countries in responding to the challenge of climate change. 18:15:44 yers 18:15:57 `? gcf 18:15:59 gcf? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 18:16:23 brctl: unignore zzo38 18:16:23 brctl: unignoring 18:30:31 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:35:16 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oshaboy * New user account 18:37:03 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83224&oldid=83218 * Oshaboy * (+97) /* Introductions */ 18:44:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:45:29 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:47:20 -!- velik has joined. 18:48:52 \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj 18:48:55 nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0 18:49:12 finally I made it 18:49:44 `? prefixes 18:49:46 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =. 18:50:38 `slwd prefixes//s=.$=, velik \\.= 18:50:43 prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 18:52:10 thanks 18:52:24 fizzie might want to add the nickname to ignorelists 18:52:51 here is the bot code https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/master/example_libera_velik/main.rb 18:53:14 here is the Cloud Function code https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/master/examples/google_cloud_function/app.rb 18:56:18 and to add new function its cmd and address should be added to this gist https://gist.github.com/Nakilon/92d5b22935f21b5e248b713057e851a6 18:56:30 and then the "hot reload" 18:56:33 \reload remote 18:56:34 remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel"] 18:57:19 ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esolangs|bfbot|egelbot|velik)! 18:57:19 OK. 18:57:45 fizzie: otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr 18:57:47 you can remove it 18:58:00 Yeah, I'll do a spring cleaning of that expression some day. 18:58:32 Noisytoot: We're waiting for a reply to our community registration email, but we already got verbally told it's okay. 18:58:48 Re what river asked, you can in fact tell the proxy to skip messages containing a keyword, like "fnord", but you probably shouldn't, because it would be confusing. 18:58:52 brctl: help filter 18:58:52 brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove) 18:58:55 brctl: filtered 18:58:55 brctl: Filter expressions: /!\\ 18:59:25 I added that one because there was the ongoing spam thing where they were considerate enough to mark each line with that symbol. 18:59:31 /!\ this is much easier than using /notice... 19:00:32 fizzie: can your instance of HackEso use CTCP action? I modified mine to permit ACTION and only ACTION, dunno if this one can 19:01:15 I think probably not, though I don't know if I care enough, given that it's not come up until now. 19:01:54 yea i assumed so 19:02:03 * int-e words around a verbified noun 19:02:05 if it comes up again I can hand over a patch 19:02:34 -!- river has joined. 19:03:16 I don't generally like to use CTCP ACTION, but there it is. So, we can see that the message is sent through the bridge, unchanged. 19:04:29 Yeah, it's just that a lot of clients only render it correctly when the ^A is at the very start. It's not great, but that's how it is. 19:05:04 fizzie: well, that is the correct behavior 19:05:24 I'm pretty sure you were supposed to be able to embed CTCP inside messages arbitrarily. 19:05:33 Maybe not so meaningfully for ACTION though. 19:05:35 I still think it is better the way that it is, although, that is a valid concern; but, when they are rendered incorrectly, how does it render them? We can see exactly what are the problems with them specifically 19:06:16 Embedding ACTION like this is probably useful for bridging, though. 19:06:30 `rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj 19:06:31 The way I saw int-e's message was as " AACTION words around a verbified nounA", with the 'A' letters that are actually ^A rendered with reversed colors. 19:06:32 Hello, World! 19:07:54 On my computer, there is a /SET FORMAT option; with /SET FORMAT - it does like you describe; with /SET FORMAT + it diplays the CTCP part of the message in red. 19:08:25 (Although, it does this even if it is alone and not part of another message.) 19:08:37 the good thing about this serverless thing is that it easily stops when RAM or Time limits are reached 19:09:51 22:02:03 ACTION words around a verbified noun 19:10:03 this could be 22:02:03 * int-e words around a verbified noun 19:10:49 Sure, that'd be the obvious "pre"formatting for CTCP ACTION. 19:13:28 fizzie: ugh, you seem to be right that CTCP in the middle of a message was meant to work 19:14:09 but I imagine it would then result in two lines here, , * esowiki 19:14:52 so it would still be up to the bridge to turn this into something more sensible 19:16:21 Well, I still think that what it currently does makes sense, at least 19:18:11 -!- tech_exorcist_ has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist_). 19:18:22 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 19:18:28 btw 19:18:38 22:06:02 *** User ##esoteric is already on the channel. 19:18:59 zzo38: it does 19:19:05 I feel like thelounge dropped previous logs 19:20:09 I guess there were two channels and then they were merged 19:20:34 and now I'm unable to switch to the old one to see the history, lol 19:21:09 it's now trashed somewhere in thelounge's sql db 19:23:04 nakilon: fizzie can probably invite you 19:24:01 but it also seems kind of pathetic, not being able to check the logs just because you're not joined :) 19:24:48 what about your clients? do you miss that chunk too where we were jumping around the hackeso ` `` ```? 19:25:04 cbt and stuff 19:25:48 int-e so another channel still exists? 19:26:04 There's still 10 people on ##esoteric, yes. 19:26:15 nakilon: #esoteric and ##esoteric both forward people to join here 19:26:21 to->who 19:26:29 yeah it looks like the thelounge limitation to be not able to read the log if you for example was banned and then you closed the tab 19:26:35 the tab of the channel 19:26:36 There was a big split, and then ChanServ kicked out a whole bunch of people with the reason "invite-only channel". 19:26:40 fizzie: down from 22 the last time I checked... attrition! 19:27:02 (apparently I was on the wrong side of that split) 19:27:16 (doesn't matter, I only just noticed) 19:27:38 nakilon: I can invite you onto it if you do need it for the logs, though I agree that's a little weird. 19:29:44 The plan is to allow it to gradually empty, then leave it as an empty forwarded for a time, and then drop the registration, because in terms of policy I think anyone should be free to claim ##esoteric to talk about... whatever they think is appropriate for the name. We'll still keep single-# #esoteric for now. 19:40:26 "otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr" => and I believe EgoBot hasn't existed for even longer, but we're an IRC community, we don't forget our past so quickly 19:40:49 no need to spring clean that, there's no harm coming from ignoring those other bots 19:40:52 oh by the way 19:41:27 fizzie: I'll probably ask simcop to join perlbot to our channel, wherever that is, so you might want to have fungot ignore perlbot too. 19:41:28 b_jonas: mr president, i would like to express my support for the peace process is not served in any way. indeed, famine and ethiopia: these are amendment nos 5, 11 and 12 because they merely restate the principles of transparency and citizenship at the service of other objectives which it may be claimed that the world's population by 2015 and the objective of the commission, may i ask you whether you do not insist on the inser 19:42:37 perlbot is an instance of a modified version of buubot3, and simcop already brought it to libera 19:42:41 [[4BOD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+2437) Initial 19:43:00 huh thought i brought it hear earlier already 19:43:23 it will only speak when spoken to so it's usually fine 19:43:28 -!- perlbot has joined. 19:44:02 nakilon: you're aware that backslash is valid as the first character of an irc nick, an in fact oren wore such a link for a while, right? 19:46:00 ^ignore ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot)! 19:46:00 OK. 19:46:17 (I know some of those are still obsolete, but anyway.) 19:46:41 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IPhoenix * New user account 19:47:42 fungot! 19:47:42 river: this week we have already been applying the practices of armed groups seeking to cut off supplies we must consider how best to reduce greenhouse gas emissions at global level to observe social labour standards. 19:48:11 Armed groups are one way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, yes. 19:48:21 " * int-e words around a verbified noun" => I dislike formatting CTCP action that way 19:48:40 I'd suggest " /me words around a verbified noun" instead 19:49:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83226&oldid=83224 * IPhoenix * (+276) hi 19:50:27 Yes, and I would prefer just sending it directly. So, those are now three different suggestions. 19:52:14 " nakilon: I can invite you onto it [libera/##esoteric ]" => mode the channel to passworded -i+k and make the password automatically track (a sanitized version of) /hackenv/wisdom/password ! then people who try to join accidentally will be forwarded here, but anyone can still join deliberately :-) 19:52:32 simcop2387: thanks 19:53:05 perlbot compose {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got} 19:53:05 b_jonas: Error: unmatched closing parenthesis in compose 19:53:11 np. i've added some features to it since we last talked about it, i can set this channel to have it's own namespace of factoids if you guys want it 19:53:41 perlbot compose {echo {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got}} 19:53:42 b_jonas: > 3 -- fungot 19:53:43 https://factoids.perl.bot/ for a way to browse them all. 19:54:04 fizzie: thanks 19:56:57 b_jonas: We speculated about making an invite exemption that allows anyone already on #esolangs to join ##esoteric if they wish -- /quote help extban says "$c: - Matches users who are on the given channel", but https://libera.chat/guides/extbans doesn't mention it, and didn't work. 19:57:30 what is the difference between #esolangs and ##esoteric 19:57:38 basically nothing 19:57:45 I can't join it, neat. 19:57:59 It's supposed to just forward to here. 19:58:03 imode: it forwards people here, just as #esoteric does 19:58:05 aha, that explains it. 19:59:08 If the help file says something that does not match the implementation, then you should file a bug report 20:00:01 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83227&oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+92) Categories 20:00:11 There's not much point in hanging out on it, really, but of course people still do. Well, I shouldn't talk, *I'm* still there too. Maybe I should just lock the topic and part, to show good example. 20:00:26 [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83228&oldid=83227 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo 20:00:41 zzo38: Yeah, although I can't rule out the possibility that I did something wrong. 20:01:00 Yes, that is what you will have to check first 20:01:55 simcop2387: there's a web interface listing them? hmm, that sort of ruins the joke where the only way to list them was to list ones matching each individual byte like compose `compose [echo `eval join"",map{"[fact search [eval chr $_]]"} 0..255']' except that one times out so it doesn't work 20:02:49 yea there started to get to be too many factoids for search to work like that anymore so i had to do something else 20:03:10 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83229&oldid=83228 * Oshaboy * (+53) Typo and extra info 20:03:23 there's also the factgrep command that looks only at the subject of the factoid and gives it back as a perl/json array to be consumed in macros 20:03:30 perlbot: factgrep _be_ 20:03:30 simcop2387: ["_be_abesimpson_it","_be_brain","_be__default","__be_elliott_poop","_be_elliott_poop","_be_florianbd_functions","_be_foo_blarg","_be__get_list","_be_huf_anyad","_be_kent\\n_news","_be_kthx","_be_larry_underwood_song","_be_list","_be_mst_cistern","_be_mst_snort","_be_parv_thanks","_be_paste","_be_pearl","_be_simcop2387_mrceremonies","_be_web","_be_xenu_1"] 20:03:31 [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83230&oldid=83229 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo 20:03:52 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:03:54 well... you could add some way in the factoid plugin to get a window into the list of factoid names, so that we can list them even automated in a macro, but that would be work 20:04:03 [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83231&oldid=83230 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo 20:04:21 wait, factgrep? 20:04:24 and the search is now also powered by postgresql's full text search engine, including macro outputs. so it tends to do better on actual searches 20:04:35 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:04:39 yea runs a regex across all the factoid subjects (not the contents) 20:04:45 so that things like this are doable 20:04:46 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83232&oldid=83231 * Oshaboy * (+45) Extra Info 20:04:48 perlbot: literal be 20:04:48 simcop2387: P:macro be is [eval $str="[fact [8ball [fact _be__get_list [arg]]]]"; $arg=[quote d [arg]]; if ($arg =~ /^\s*a\s+retard\s*$/) {$arg=[quote d [arg &n]]}; if ($arg =~ /^\s*$/) {$str} else {"<".$arg."> ".$str}] 20:05:01 perlbot fact literal factgrep 20:05:15 it's a command part of the factoid plugin, no way to do it otherwise 20:05:30 help fact 20:05:33 perlbot: literal _be__get_list 20:05:33 simcop2387: macro _be__get_list is `eval use JSON::MaybeXS qw/decode_json/; $bel= decode_json `quote d `fact factgrep ^_be_`arg!!!; return `quote d `fact _be__default!! unless (@$bel); @$bel = (@$bel, @$bel); join(', ', @$bel) =~ s/,/ or /r! 20:05:44 i've not kept up with the help properly for it all 20:05:54 simcop2387: yeah, help text are hard to write 20:06:01 it's just a PCRE regex against the factoids 20:06:17 wait, a PCRE regex powered by postgres? 20:06:22 yea 20:06:40 at least i think it was pcre. can't remember 20:06:47 id perl esoteric? 20:06:56 it can be 20:07:06 nakilon: perl isn't, but perlbot is 20:07:13 it probably would be considered so these days 20:07:18 b_jonas yeah, it might be valid nickname char but I'm used to it from some time ago 20:07:34 I hope no one name himself \rasel 20:07:54 anyway 20:08:09 \rasel some random text that people would write here 20:08:12 nakilon, output: "", exit code: 255 20:08:31 i wish we had the ircv3 extension that let you have unicode nicks. 20:08:56 `echo perlbot echo hi 20:08:57 perlbot echo hi 20:08:57 HackEso: hi 20:09:28 hmm, is that OK or is that a botloop risk in the future? 20:09:31 I mean 20:09:39 `echo j-bot: 'hi' 20:09:39 j-bot: 'hi' 20:09:46 it's basically the same as that 20:10:06 um 20:10:11 oh yeah, j-bot isn't here 20:10:15 I have to test that on freenode 20:10:30 I wouldn't consider Perl to be so "esoteric" but it does seem to be unusual in some ways. I have a list of unusual (or otherwise notable) features of programming languages, so if you know then you can add it, I suppose 20:10:34 `echo j-bot: echo 'hi' 20:10:35 j-bot: echo 'hi' 20:10:36 HackEso: |security violation: echo 20:10:36 HackEso: | echo'hi' 20:10:41 `echo j-bot: 'hi' 20:10:42 j-bot: 'hi' 20:10:43 HackEso: hi 20:10:47 HackEso's main anti-loop defence is that non-breaking space in front of non-alphanumeric first characters. 20:10:59 It kind of doesn't work for bots that respond to "nick:" prefixes. 20:11:02 yeah, basically the same as how perlbot is invoked 20:11:05 perlbot will throttle itself but it won't try to break a loop itself 20:11:05 simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [woldrich] [woldrich > you] [well this] [well, it] [wonderwall] [hello there] [tl;dr] [wolfram] [wantarray] [webdragon] 20:11:23 -!- kixx has joined. 20:11:50 that said i can easily just tell it to ignore the other bots if needed 20:12:23 yes, j-bot can do that too 20:12:45 You might tell it to ignore HackEso and perhaps fungot. Though I guess traditionally we should get one botloop in first. 20:12:45 fizzie: mr president, no doubt, however, also like to thank you and your house has understood this in as much as does parliament that the number of people who are in the process. of course, the quality of those jobs. 20:13:10 for now velik is almost loop-safe because the rasel output is prefixed with "output: " 20:13:18 \assuming there's no error for *all* text that starts with a backslash, only the ones that are specific commands, then I think conflicts are unlikely. 20:14:25 hmm wait 20:14:54 I'll have to look at that in more detail, because that sounds like there might be botloops that you can only start by changing your nick to a bot command 20:14:58 oh and this one 20:14:59 ping 20:14:59 pong 20:15:17 \echo hi 20:15:39 though if output is prefixed by output: that does sound safe 20:19:25 -!- citrons has joined. 20:19:32 \rasel 0 20:19:53 > symbol "perlbot echo hi" 20:19:55 error: 20:19:55 ‱ Variable not in scope: symbol :: [Char] -> t 20:19:55 ‱ Perhaps you meant ‘isSymbol’ (imported from Data.Char) 20:20:00 > text "perlbot echo hi" 20:20:02 perlbot echo hi 20:20:02 lambdabot: hi 20:20:07 that's more promising 20:20:30 yeah, but then it prefixes the output with lambdabot, and I don't think you can trigger lambdabot that way 20:20:36 lambdabot: > 2 20:20:37 lambdabot: @run 3 20:20:39 3 20:20:41 wait 20:20:48 oh it does not respond with bot-level exception like "HTTPRequestTimeOut 408 Request Timeout" here -- it PRIVMSGs it to me 20:20:53 Was going to say, I've seen people do the @run thing. 20:21:28 > text "perlbot @echo hi" 20:21:29 perlbot @echo hi 20:21:29 lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee] 20:21:42 > text "wait what? @echo hi" 20:21:43 wait what? @echo hi 20:21:51 -!- integral has joined. 20:22:01 > text "@echo hi" 20:22:03 @echo hi 20:22:09 > text "perlbot echo @run 123" 20:22:10 perlbot echo @run 123 20:22:10 lambdabot: @run 123 20:22:12 123 20:22:17 > text "perlbot @echo hi" 20:22:18 perlbot @echo hi 20:22:18 lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee] 20:22:41 In the above, just replace "123" with something that generates text "..." and you'd be done. 20:22:41 > text "perlbot echo @echo hi" 20:22:43 perlbot echo @echo hi 20:22:43 lambdabot: @echo hi 20:22:43 echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "perlbot!~perlbot@71.76.76.1", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esolangs",":lambdabot: @echo hi"] 20:22:43 } target:#esolangs rest:"hi" 20:23:08 > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" 20:23:09 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 20:23:10 lambdabot: @run text "hi" 20:23:11 hi 20:23:13 that's absolutely loopable 20:23:24 I will wait a little bit of time before I actually loop it though 20:23:35 since I specifically asked simcop to join it here 20:23:57 I've got nothing to do with either perlbot or lambdabot, so I'll just make some popcorn and watch. 20:23:59 perlbot help ignore 20:23:59 b_jonas: Sorry, no plugin named ignore found. 20:24:58 -!- Thelie has joined. 20:25:03 I mean I can make a loop that I can break, but still 20:25:33 simcop2387: can you please make perlbot ignore lambdabot? 20:25:46 int-e: can you please make lambdabot ignore perlbot? 20:26:13 @ignore perlbot 20:26:13 Not enough privileges 20:26:18 $deity: can you please make all bots sentient, so they can decide not to get stuck on loops? Wait, maybe that's got some more implications. 20:26:23 perlbot echo @ignore perlbot 20:26:23 b_jonas: @ignore perlbot 20:26:36 That's not even the command. 20:27:03 > text "perlbot echo @ignore perlbot" 20:27:04 perlbot echo @ignore perlbot 20:27:05 lambdabot: @ignore perlbot 20:27:05 Not enough privileges 20:27:29 > text "perlbot echo @ignore +perlbot" 20:27:30 perlbot echo @ignore +perlbot 20:27:30 lambdabot: @ignore +perlbot 20:27:31 Not enough privileges 20:27:37 > text "perlbot echo @ignore -perlbot" 20:27:38 perlbot echo @ignore -perlbot 20:27:39 lambdabot: @ignore -perlbot 20:27:39 Not enough privileges 20:27:41 That's not how that command works anyway. 20:27:52 > text "perlbot echo @ignore + perlbot" 20:27:53 perlbot echo @ignore + perlbot 20:27:54 lambdabot: @ignore + perlbot 20:27:54 Not enough privileges 20:27:54 You can't @ignore without privileges. 20:28:05 you can't even ignore you? 20:28:09 Not even you. 20:28:14 j-bot has a special command to ignore you 20:28:18 Privileges are checked before any command code is run. 20:28:18 which works without privilages 20:28:30 it's not the normal ignore command, a different command 20:29:25 what does "j-" mean? 20:29:36 J language 20:29:51 oh cool 20:31:09 weird, the lambdabot ignore command isn't even in the whatisdb. I thought it had all lambdabot commands. 20:31:13 `whatis ignore 20:31:14 ignore(8jevalbot) - ignore messages from the given irc nick 20:32:53 although now I should add perlbot commands to the whatisdb too 20:33:56 `whatis whatis 20:33:57 whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(5hackeso) - no description 20:34:23 it's mostly manpage headers, but I added a bunch of bot commands for fun 20:34:23 _Oo 20:35:01 including "all" HackEso commands, except I think one that has a newline in it which the format of this whatisdb doesn't allow or something silly like that 20:35:07 `whatis b_jonas 20:35:08 b_jonas: nothing appropriate. 20:35:15 try `? for that 20:35:17 sounds tight 20:35:20 *r 20:35:43 but of course there are new HackEso commands since 20:35:54 `? b_jonas 20:35:55 b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos szemĂ©ly. HollĂ©tĂ©rƑl egyelƑre nem ismertek. He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense. 20:36:11 bit like the `info script my Hackbot instance has. 20:36:20 I mean having manpages for HackEso commands actually makes some sort of sense, 20:36:26 and then I went from that to other bots by analogy 20:36:35 `` cat ${which whatis} 20:36:36 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ${which whatis}: bad substitution 20:36:47 * cd tired 20:36:58 ``` cat $(type -p whatis) 20:36:59 ​#!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print("whatis what?") \ sys.exit(1) \ else: \ argorg = [] \ argfoldv = [] \ foundv = [] \ for arg in sys.argv[1:]: \ argorg.append(arg) \ argfoldv.append(arg.casefold()) \ foundv.append(False) \ with open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv") + "/share/whatis", errors="surrogateescape") as whatisdb: \ for line in whatisdb: \ 20:37:01 round parens 20:37:05 Ye 20:37:18 i just got in bed for a nap, so I’m tired and on phone :P 20:37:45 ``` url $(type -p whatis) # might be more useful 20:37:47 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/whatis 20:41:04 -!- kixx has left (Leaving). 21:03:23 > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- just to check if any of the ignores are set 21:03:24 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 21:03:25 lambdabot: @run text "hi" 21:03:26 hi 21:05:40 ugh 21:15:45 int-e: please make lamdbabot ignore perlbot 21:15:58 b_jonas: can't 21:16:02 you can't? 21:16:23 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 21:16:23 int-e: @run text "hi" 21:16:30 oh 21:16:38 I'll have to wait for simcop then 21:16:40 anywa, I can't because I already did 21:16:44 to make perlbot ignore lambdabot 21:17:06 also, who is lamdbabot ;) 21:17:10 int-e: this one is trivial to turn to a botloop, with the defined value or quine on either side 21:17:21 :) typo yes 21:17:33 > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" 21:17:35 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 21:17:35 lambdabot: @run text "hi" 21:17:37 hi 21:17:45 huh, I thought I did 21:18:06 > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" 21:18:07 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 21:18:07 lambdabot: @run text "hi" 21:18:23 also wait 21:18:27 hmm 21:18:37 oh right 21:21:07 this still sounds like you might be able to get j-bot and perlbot in a botloop if you give the right invocation and nick away right before one of the bots wants to connect btw 21:21:11 but that's hard 21:21:26 but I will have to think a bit if there's an easier way 21:24:33 apparently unaffiliated cloaks start with "user/" on libera, not "unaffiliated/" 21:24:50 Do you know what (if anything) to write about the things I mentioned adding into wisdom file? I don't know, by myself. 21:25:01 b_jonas: I suppose there is the advantage being shorter 21:25:07 yep 21:29:15 (Although, I would like the option of forward-DNS-based cloaking, that allows you to use any domain name that resolves to the address that you are connecting from, in addition to the cloaking that is already implemented; this can be helpful when you cannot configure the reverse DNS, or if you have multiple domain names and want only one of them for IRC) 21:30:59 zzo38: I don't really see what the advantage is of DNS hostnames in hostmasks at all, as opposed to just ip addresses, unless it's because hostnames are sometimes shorter, especially for ipv6, but we could abbreviate ips to such short base64 strings or something that this is almost never worth 21:32:53 Yes, IP addresses would also help especially if you wan to avoid a reverse DNS lookup (or any DNS lookup) on the server, for efficiency; it is what I do for my own server stuff. 21:33:30 However, the advantage of supporting host names is in case you have a dynamic IP address but still want to identify your computer in the IRC logs in this way. 21:33:31 if it weren't for having to moderate spammers, I'd prefer if the hostname field just showed a dummy value, or something entirely different than a hostname, instead of an actual hostname or ip address 21:34:16 but ip addresses help channel ops ban spam quickly 21:34:23 Some IRC servers do that, sometimes needing a +x mode (which is sometimes the default). However, if it has the format of a domain name, but it is not valid, then probably ".invalid" should be added to specify that it is invalid. 21:35:01 zzo38: I think we already have some pretty well supported IRC syntax to mark fake hostnames, used for cloaks and services 21:35:58 There is the format with slashes, which are not valid in domain names, so that works, I think. 21:36:06 (But not all IRC networks use this) 21:49:14 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 21:49:14 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 21:57:36 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 22:01:11 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 22:02:43 -!- salpynx has joined. 22:11:52 `۟ liberA 22:11:54 ​.ebyaM .erutuf eht fo dnal eht si arebiL 22:12:22 woah 22:12:23 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist). 22:14:05 salpynx: o/ 22:24:59 -!- FreeFull has quit. 22:25:17 oh, so Âż does work too!: 22:25:19 `Âż befunge 22:25:20 ​.dronF .sgnihT eht llA detnevbenat benaT dnA .benaT tog tognuF dnA .tognuF togeb egnufeB dnA .egnufeB saw gninnigeB eht nI 22:25:45 was there a fourth question mark in unicode, hm?.. 22:26:27 `ÍŸ unicode 22:26:28 ​͟? No such file or directory 22:26:48 `⁇ unidecode 22:26:49 ​⁇? No such file or directory 22:27:00 `unidecode ۟ 22:27:01 ​[U+061F ARABIC QUESTION MARK] 22:27:22 there’s at least one more ۟, âžź: 22:27:25 `unidecode âžź 22:27:26 ​[U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK] 22:27:31 `âžź unidecode 22:27:32 ​⾼? No such file or directory 22:27:51 `? âžź 22:27:53 ​⾼? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 22:28:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: Quitte). 22:28:34 I find this trend very questionable 22:28:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:29:34 would it be good to have a wisdom about Âż? 22:29:55 oh, I mean about those two other ones 22:31:15 [[Whopper]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+1075) Add some stuff 22:32:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Client Quit). 22:37:39 feel free to unlearn this but I hope this will stick :D 22:37:40 `۟ ۟ 22:37:41 ​۟ is more than just wisdom 22:38:28 (and Âż was already wise) 22:48:10 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:08:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:20:00 I had hoped Âż turned the wisdom upside down (rotate not reflect), but it's just a synonym for ۟ 23:20:01 [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83234&oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+166) 23:21:02 (found it by looking in the source repo) 23:32:31 > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- lets' try again 23:32:32 perlbot echo @run text "hi" 23:32:33 lambdabot: @run text "hi" 23:32:40 thanks, int-e 23:34:59 Turning characters upside-down is harder than changing their order. 23:35:27 If memory serves, Unicode doesn't even really have a good upside-down set for the English alphabet, you end up using silly approximations? 23:37:09 According to one online converter, this is not very wise -> ǝsıʍ ʎÉčǝʌ ʇou sı sıɄʇ. 23:37:23 Which is okay, I guess, but not great. 23:37:33 Especially the i → ı part. 23:40:54 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:43:38 `` python3 -c 'print("sı\u0323 sı\u0323Ʉʇ")' 23:43:39 sÄ±ÌŁ sÄ±ÌŁÉ„Ê‡ 23:48:54 -!- relrod has joined. 23:52:32 `jrypbzr 23:52:33 Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: . (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba RSarg be QNYarg.) 23:52:37 yeah, we do have that 23:52:56 `welcome 23:52:58 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 2021-05-24: 00:08:47 b_jonas: done 00:18:29 `coins 00:18:32 ​decientcoin kolmograntcoin tmmcoin duodcoin locatcoin kuffcoin brisccoin yoteritaftgnomagarabcoin regexicoin shoussencoin mertatecoin sincoin digicoin geoboaftcoin vivatiocoin kipsiancoin ooocoin amertcoin selfcoin tatcoin 00:18:48 can I has an obsoletecoin 00:19:11 Oh "selfcoin" is good, somehow 00:19:33 Ooh? 00:19:35 `coins 00:19:37 ​kildcoin atttecoin aricoin ollecoin chalcoin procoin puzzliccoin dogcoin aubeoncoin enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin stacoin alagucoin rubesyzcoin moncoin circutecoin udagerocoin inlamicrecoin scocoin tincoin sarcoin 00:20:08 Yeah, I'll pay in enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin, is that okay? 00:23:04 chibi: is that the cryptocurrency equivalent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones 00:23:23 `` cat $(which coins) 00:23:24 words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords 00:23:34 huh 00:23:37 `` which words 00:23:38 ​/hackenv/bin/words 00:23:43 `` cat $(which words) 00:23:44 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #warn "Optional module Math::Random::MT::Perl not found.\n" if $@; \ } \ \ #constants \ my @options = qw(eng-1M 00:24:50 [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83235&oldid=83234 * Hyperdawg * (-166) /* hello world */ 00:25:22 [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83236&oldid=82458 * Hyperdawg * (+14) 00:27:02 I didn't remember it was a mixture of both English and esolang names, I thought it was just the latter. Plus the -coin suffix. 00:30:34 [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83237&oldid=81589 * Hyperdawg * (+79) /* can you make a video on my language? */ new section 00:33:43 -!- jinn_ has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 00:33:51 -!- jinn has joined. 00:42:11 simcop2387: thanks 00:43:16 int-e: Raid stones => or those million dollar bills used for some questionable banking reasons in the UK 00:44:49 the ones that are supposedly legally valid cash and you can pay with them anywhere, but if you try everyone will know you've stolen it (or worse, counterfeited) and they'll call the police and delay the payment on that account 00:45:08 not really weirder than some of the other UK traditions really 00:47:42 hmm, this spam "newsletter" that I get every week, why did I just get three copies of it? 01:04:27 fizzie: can I have a copy of hackbot's fetch from your instance? It's being super weird and I cannot get it working for whatever reason. 01:04:58 specifically, multibot/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch 01:06:11 It's exactly the same file as https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch 01:06:32 * cd is annoyed 01:06:35 ah well 01:07:10 I'll keep debugging then, was worth a shot seeing if you modified it 01:08:16 The only changes I have in the running instance from the commit in github are: in multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, the `ignored_nick` list is changed (I should probably add more bots to it), and the lock file is changed from "lock" to os.environ['HACKENV']+".lock"); and in multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox, the /usr/bin/umlbox path is changed and `'--env', 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8',` is added to the list of flags. 01:09:11 Yea I prodded it a bit more than that, so i'll need to remember what I changed 01:09:36 I've got a commit in the checkout in a branch called `live`, which I rebase when I make changes to the public code. 01:10:08 is it common to put esolangs in video games? 01:10:15 (So seeing what I changed is `git diff -r master -r live`.) 01:11:05 Existing languages developed for some other purposes, or languages made for that specific purpose that would still count as esolangs? 01:11:25 both 01:12:08 e.g. using brainfuck as a shader language for in-game computers (that use a real language on the game server) 01:12:24 `rakudo --help 01:12:24 rakudo? No such file or directory 01:12:36 or, alternatively, command blocks... 01:12:37 meh, not surprised i couldn't get Rakudo to work inside UML 01:12:40 it seems to dislike it aha 01:13:20 I don't think that's very common. In fact, I don't think I've heard of any examples. 01:13:45 yea I was quite surprised, it works fine outside UML but inside it gets upset and crashes instantly 01:14:14 That was about esolangs in video games, to be clear, not about Rakudo. 01:14:21 huh 01:14:27 surprised https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Command_Block isn't anywhere on the wiki 01:14:31 ah 01:14:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nViIUfDMJg 01:15:16 Soni: I think there's been some discussion about whether those kind of things should count, with no clear conclusion. 01:15:57 hmm 01:16:02 what are the arguments against? 01:16:03 I think someone was talking about writing an article about the TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS assembly languages. 01:16:34 my gut tells me those don't really count but I can't really say why 01:16:37 uh, we don't know about TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS, but command blocks are exciting to us 01:17:42 Yeah, just saying, that's when the topic of languages designed to be part of gameplay came up. Though the Minecraft context might be even closer. 01:20:21 In any case, I don't personally have anything against having articles about them, and I don't remember any particularly convincing arguments. 01:20:21 `prefixes 01:20:21 ^prefixes 01:20:21 perlbot prefixes 01:20:21 There's a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacechem_Programming_Language page but that's very stubby. 01:20:22 Soni: it is common to have certain games, especially sandbox simulation games, happen to grow languages that turn out to be more powerful than the creator of the game intended, in the TeXbook appendix D sense, 01:20:22 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ . 01:20:22 b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [purebasic] [prezses] [_purpose_0] [_purpose_1] [_purpose_2] [_purpose_3] [_purpose_4] [_purpose_5] [_purpose_6] [_purpose_7] 01:20:24 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 01:20:44 or sometimes there's an existing game that works well and the developer sees how easy it would be to add a language on top of them to add some programming capabilities 01:21:06 b_jonas: you mean TeX AVR? 01:21:59 the latter applies to shapez.io and Factorio, the games I've recently been playing, which deliberately have some programming as part of gameplay capabilities added into them, but as those programming capabilities are weird, they automatically become an esolang where people try to solve tasks that the languages don't make easy and come up with intersting constructions like you have to in an esolang 01:23:05 hmm. yeah so, are they or are they not esolangs? 01:23:19 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yit * New user account 01:23:58 the former applies to OpenTTD (and its ancestor TTDPatch), which originally just added pre-signals to make it possible to make better train networks, where making train networks is the orignal goal of the game, but then it turns out that trains plus presignals creates an interesting esolang with surprising constructions possible 01:24:30 Soni: dunno, I don't particularly care about the definition question here 01:25:00 okay 01:26:22 oh yeah, minecraft. I'm not too experienced in that, but I believe that has some of those programming as gameplay capabilities too 01:26:42 it might be the most famous example 01:26:45 OpenTTD seems like the kinda game that's boring to play normally but really interesting to optimize 01:27:00 I wonder if (Open)RCT2 has anything similar. 01:27:08 hmm 01:27:28 chibi: yeah, there's an entire OpenTTDcoop community for that, with inscrutable internal customs and lots of scarcely documented game knowledge 01:27:44 is raw iCE40 bitstreams an esolang? 01:28:14 they know more about OpenTTD programming than anyone else, but it's hard to learn from them 01:28:25 luckily they have IRC presence on oftc, which helps to some extent 01:28:38 (well, if you're the IRC kind of person, which I assume here) 01:29:12 (saying redstone is an esolang is like saying FPGA bitstreams are an esolang tbh :p) 01:29:27 and of course there's some Super Mario Maker programming too, definitely esoteric but much more limited in general purpose computation capabilities than the previous examples 01:29:30 Interesting, interesting. Ooh, DF comes to mind too 01:29:46 DF is probably turing complete in more ways than we've even found aha 01:30:05 I'm not familiar with Dwarf Fortress programming, but I think there were some Dwarf Fortress players on this channel, there definitely are somewhere on ... um, freenode? 01:30:17 i'm right here 01:30:21 :P 01:30:37 ah good 01:30:55 the most common way is mechanisms + minecarts computation 01:31:05 feel free to ask me about shapez.io and factorio by the way. I don't know everything, obviously, but still 01:31:08 which is just a derivative of billard ball computation, with extra logical tools to make it compact 01:31:25 minecarts in their current form in fact behave like billard balls :P 01:31:50 usage of fluids is good for things like memory cells when you need compactness 01:32:01 hmm are powerpoint and CSS esolangs? 01:32:04 fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof 01:32:53 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83238&oldid=83226 * Yit * (+83) adding myself 01:33:08 well hm https://esolangs.org/wiki/(P%E2%84%A2TM%E2%84%A2)%E2%84%A2 01:39:25 [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83239&oldid=50266 * Enoua5 * (+37) Update dead link 01:44:09 Soni: pwoerpoint is definitely one of those accidental thingies 01:44:52 "fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof" => do you have exponential quantity of fluids with as large storage tanks? if so, just implement Waterfall 01:45:26 I think you only need like single exponential if you do it right, but I'm not completely sure 02:29:24 -!- cd has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:46:12 Something I discovered a few days ago: John Conway built a fluid machine https://nautil.us/blog/this-early-computer-was-based-on-a-urinal-flush-mechanism 02:46:43 perlbot, prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 02:46:43 b_jonas: Stored prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 02:46:43 b_jonas: mr president, madam commissioner, i do not feel it would also be an option. that is the reason why some members are left feeling slightly perplexed that they envisage an institution which is also true of the community which was only accepted when austria joined the european union 02:46:52 perlbot prefixes 02:46:52 b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 02:50:05 I wonder if we should try to break this category of bot loops by making it so that when a bot like j-bot or perlbot or lambdabot prefixes the nick of the requestor to a reply, it uses a delimiter after that nick that's never accepted as a delimiter for invoking a bot, so that you can't confuse invoking a bot from a bot replying you 02:50:36 I didn't think of that when designing j-bot's terrible interface, but now I wonder 02:50:42 what delimiter would be useful for that? 02:51:10 the usual invisibl ^O? 02:51:21 +e 02:52:49 lambdabot prefixes most replies with a space in an attempt to prevent this kind of thing... but perlbot is too generous in how it is addresed 02:52:59 j-bot accepts too many delimiters in that context 02:53:04 int-e: hmm 02:53:24 s/prevent/mitigate/ is more appropriate, I guess 02:53:57 and there are some exceptions, most notably @where, which this channel has abused plenty 02:54:36 int-e: I'm more worried about the kind of botloop where two bots reply each other with a nick prefix, like xbot says "ybot: foo" then ybot says "xbot: foo" (both on channel). the hard part is starting such a loop, which usually requires a race condition, but sometimes there are other sneaky ways, and I'd rather if the bots were designed such that such a loop can't be sustained, not just can't be started. 02:54:48 but the control-O may be a good idea 02:54:54 lambdabot: @run 1 02:55:06 see, lambdabot wouldn't accept that with a leading space 02:55:16 nor does j-bot 02:55:17 lambdabot: @run 1 02:55:18 perlbot echo hi 02:55:18 b_jonas: hi 02:55:19 1 02:55:21 but perlbot does 02:55:35 so that's not foolproof 02:55:35 right, hence the potential botloop with lambdabot earlier 02:55:49 well, nothing will be foolproof 02:55:58 sure 02:56:25 I guess one could do the fungot thing, stop replying after 5 messages from the same nick. 02:56:25 int-e: mr president, i am happy to take our entrepreneurs, investors and companies there. it will no longer exist. as this is contrary to the texts themselves. now, europe’s contribution to the work of these authorities and to establish it as a substantial step forward, but rome was not built in a day. should not we in the group quite rightly, that the complexity of the groups. 02:56:39 but that would be really awful for lambdabot's ordinary use :) 02:56:49 lambdabot @run 2 02:56:55 lambdabot: @run 3 02:56:56 3 02:57:05 lambdabot: @run 4 02:57:16 perlbot echo 5 02:57:26 j-bot: 6 02:57:36 yeah, a control-O after the nick seems to work decently 02:57:57 perlbot echo 5 02:58:01 or before? 02:58:02 I think that, if a loop is detected, then perhaps NOTICE should be used for the reponse, and it should never respond to a NOTICE; if a loop continues to be detected after that, then it should ignore further messages for some amount of time, until it resets. 02:58:16 prefixing with ^O is way easier... 02:59:05 That may work, but maybe it should be right at the beginning, rather than after the nick, I think 02:59:10 I also have to be careful about bot loops in private message. I recall three such cases: 02:59:40 one with buubot1 which just lets anyone ask it to send a reply in private message to anyone else, which is just plain silly; 03:00:17 one with j-bot which is much more relaxed (though not strictly) about invocation syntax in private message than in public, and one with bfbot which had a bug about not escaping newlines or something like that 03:00:36 so I have to be careful about private message syntax too 03:00:51 Even so, if there are still loops despite ^O then something will have to be done, even though that will probably mitigate it in most cases, but not necessarily all. 03:01:00 perhaps I should add the same nick and delimiter prefix in the reply even when I reply to a private message 03:01:37 zzo38: sometimes sending a notice during heuristically detected potential loops is not a bad idea 03:01:49 I'll think about it 03:02:26 I mean, the reason why we usually don't use notice is because it annoys some people because of their broken clients, but a bot loop is probably even more annoying 03:04:13 I'll remove lambdabot from the channel before I change it to use notice 03:04:58 Yes, that is why you might do only if a loop is detected 03:05:07 -!- cyclosa has joined. 03:26:04 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BadBoyHaloCat * New user account 03:28:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83240&oldid=83238 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+162) 03:39:42 [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83241&oldid=79598 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+265) 04:23:01 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)). 04:28:24 -!- salpynx has joined. 05:14:20 -!- cd has joined. 05:18:41 morning 05:18:58 starts with esoteric 05:20:32 I made project euler 1 one-liner and wanted to show but realised the irc command can't pass stdin 05:24:30 -!- dyeplexer has joined. 05:57:32 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83242&oldid=63185 * Bangyen * (+131) 06:06:07 Good morning! 06:14:13 Good Maneb! 06:14:51 Do you have any neato fancy algorithms for me today? 06:14:57 You don't have to have invented them (though I don't see how you could possibly have avoided it) 06:22:16 -!- ic has joined. 06:25:18 I do not :( I've been rather algorithm-ignorant as of late 06:30:55 Kruskal;s algorithm is neat, though 06:33:57 Hmm, minimum spanning trees. 06:34:26 That's the thing where almost every algorithm you can think of solves it optimally, right? 06:34:36 I do like union-find. 06:36:20 Yeah, Prim's and Kruskal's algorithm are both very greedy and get an optimal solution 06:43:40 I am also very greedy, but I don't get an optimal solution. :-( 06:44:14 Perhaps you should try to find a minimal spanning tree 06:44:39 Hmm, I'd rather find a cat. 06:44:56 Well, my neighbor has a cat now, and I interacted with that cat the other day. So perhaps my solution is close to optimal. 06:48:05 Is this channel publicly logged right now? 06:48:26 Oh, I guess it is. Oh well. 06:49:22 -!- salpynx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:55:43 did you neighbor just told you you can forget about the cat? 06:57:21 -!- ic has left (Leaving). 07:08:00 woah, the gist.githubusercontent.com is cached ( 07:09:14 it didn't update the /raw/ file until either ~2 minutes passed or I refreshed it in a browser with trailing '?' 07:22:30 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:30:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:13:46 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:14:09 -!- velik has joined. 08:16:15 \help 08:16:15 available commands: rasel; usage help: \help 08:16:27 \help rasel 08:16:27 \rasel ; \rasel -stdin ; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL 08:16:48 \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj 08:16:49 nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0 08:17:04 \rasel -stdin |1 2 3|& .& .& .@ 08:17:05 nakilon, output: "1 2 3 ", exit code: 0 08:17:31 \rasel -stdin 10 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a- 08:17:32 nakilon, output: "23 ", exit code: 0 08:17:38 \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a- 08:17:40 nakilon, output: "233168 ", exit code: 0 08:18:10 and this is the project euler 1 08:19:35 used b_jonas idea about one-liners with 'j' 08:20:24 that is \?#j$ 08:22:57 oh, btw, I was wrong about the prefix -- it appends with "nickname, output: " -- I'll probably change it 08:24:53 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:25:12 -!- velik has joined. 08:25:21 \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a- 08:25:24 output: "233168 ", exit code: 0 08:32:58 -!- cyclosa has quit (Quit: computer broke). 08:43:34 is there no easy way to link to a specific wiki page section? 08:44:51 oh, the links seem to exist and can be copied from the "Table of contents" but if TOC isn't added to page then I see no way 08:45:06 when you hover on the subtitle it doesn't show up anything 08:47:13 nakilon: just read the page source to find the anchor names. I do that for a lot of websites that do have anchors or id attributes but not tables of contents linking to them. 08:48:22 nakilon: or preview an edit where you add __TOC__ at the start to get the anchor name 08:50:30 sounds "easy" 09:00:11 [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83243&oldid=81013 * Nakilon * (+445) telling that you can join the IRC channel and ask velik to execute the code 09:00:56 it's a plain HTML website with proper anchor names for each section. be glad for that. don't you browse any of the modern nonsense web, all dynamic and unusable? 09:03:19 I don't actually ) 09:03:36 I use news via RSS and use old.reddit.com 09:03:42 *read news 09:05:10 and I suppose the hover anchor appearance does not need JS, only CSS 09:12:53 b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_space 09:15:24 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83244&oldid=83243 * Nakilon * (-3) /* Nth Fibonacci number */ 09:26:47 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83245&oldid=83244 * Nakilon * (+3) Undo revision 83244 by [[Special:Contributions/Nakilon|Nakilon]] ([[User talk:Nakilon|talk]]) 09:34:48 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ch44d * New user account 09:46:40 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83246&oldid=83240 * Ch44d * (+128) Hello, I am Chad! 09:47:02 perlbot 0B4mraAVZJEF 09:47:03 b_jonas: aKNSSrw8EjpI 09:50:07 [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83247&oldid=83245 * Nakilon * (-6) shorter Fibonacci 10:05:25 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aonodensetsu * New user account 10:08:55 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Morganbarrett * New user account 10:12:50 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83248&oldid=83246 * Aonodensetsu * (+194) 10:18:53 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83249&oldid=83248 * Morganbarrett * (+150) 10:19:03 [[User:Morganbarrett]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83250 * Morganbarrett * (+0) Created blank page 10:25:16 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+135) Created page with "[[Category: 2021]] This is a stub of my personal page, hello to all that visited! Esolangs published: While(true){ (currently editing)" 10:25:34 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83252&oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) 10:26:12 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83253&oldid=83252 * Aonodensetsu * (+6) 10:42:14 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cypooos * New user account 10:47:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83254&oldid=83249 * Cypooos * (+212) Added my introduction ! 10:49:49 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83255&oldid=78526 * Morganbarrett * (+296) 10:51:18 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83256&oldid=83255 * Morganbarrett * (+11) 10:52:36 [[While(true)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+251) Created page with "[[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:High-level]] [[Category:Implemented]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Cell-based]] Category:Linear bounded automat..." 10:53:19 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83258&oldid=83209 * Aonodensetsu * (+18) 10:58:00 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83259&oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+346) 10:59:02 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83260&oldid=83259 * Aonodensetsu * (+955) 10:59:56 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83261&oldid=83260 * Aonodensetsu * (+20) 11:00:42 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83262&oldid=83261 * Aonodensetsu * (+523) 11:01:50 should we have an "Esoteric IRC bots" category? 11:02:10 I see at least 4 such pages 11:02:19 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83263&oldid=83262 * Aonodensetsu * (+7) 11:08:41 There's 10 bots (some not currently active) listed on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal with 7 of them having articles. 11:08:44 -!- dyeplexer has left (Leaving). 11:08:49 Not sure if it needs a category though. 11:09:15 There's a process for categories that's documented somewhere on there, if you want. 11:09:16 category:IRC 11:10:00 (my feeling is that the IRC bots are too narrow a category. IRC though, might just be broad enough to be worthwhile) 11:10:37 Hmm, that'd be taggable on IRP too. 11:11:46 I don't think it falls under any of the established dimensions of categorization, but there's already a few miscellaneous ones. 11:12:10 In any case, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization is where this discussion should be happening, as a matter of policy. :) 11:12:37 (That talk page could do with some archiving of inactive topics at some point, maybe.) 11:12:43 [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83264&oldid=83101 * Int-e * (+1) pluralize (there is no Language category) 11:13:52 If you're doing spring cleaning, "Category:stupid family" probably shouldn't exist. 11:14:33 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83265&oldid=83263 * Aonodensetsu * (+59) 11:15:00 -!- APic has joined. 11:15:13 [[Birb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83266&oldid=82033 * Int-e * (+2) category: Theoretical -> Unimplemented 11:17:01 fizzie: ah, that has 2 members. I only checked the ones with 1 member and no existing category page. 11:17:22 Because those are usually typos/miscategorizations 11:17:36 Yeah, I think that one's intentional, but still not good. 11:18:09 Yeah I agree. 11:18:12 Out of curiosity, how do those bottom navigation tables on the real wiki work? Are they category-driven, or something else? Because that's the sort of thing you could plausibly have on an IRC bot page... 11:18:18 We also have two empty categories with page 11:19:43 (I guess they're just templates maybe.) 11:21:18 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83267&oldid=83265 * Aonodensetsu * (+44) 11:21:24 fungot is in category People, lol 11:21:25 nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of my colleagues, but sooner or later) this must be recognized that in some member states are interpreting the text in this case it concerns a particularly grave and important issue that we have not just government ministers coming from their national administrations. the parliamentary democracy that led the commission to negotiate on the details, we are coming to the same 11:21:41 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83268&oldid=83267 * Aonodensetsu * (+4) 11:22:07 fizzie: hmm, I always assumed they were templates 11:22:32 Taneb: Yeah, there was a tiny "view template" link in a corner, now that I actually looked closely at one. 11:22:41 e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Italy_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest 11:22:41 Templates based on a "Navbox" template, it looked like. 11:23:10 ... the one I was looking was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eurovision_Song_Contest ... 11:23:12 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83269&oldid=83268 * Aonodensetsu * (-21) 11:23:42 -!- APic has quit (Quit: Trying whether Auto-Identify with NickServ works). 11:23:47 (Getting to sixth place and beating Sweden has been a big thing back home.) 11:23:50 -!- APic has joined. 11:24:41 My partner's Italian and their city is in the running for host next year, so we're going to try to attend in person 11:24:49 I guess it's a recent event that's on both of our minds 11:25:02 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83270&oldid=82103 * Nakilon * (+452) /* I propose the category "Esoteric IRC bots" */ new section 11:25:10 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83271&oldid=83269 * Aonodensetsu * (+26) 11:25:48 On that note, is there any way of getting those navboxes on m.wikipedia? Because it's been real annoying when browsing 'pedia on the phone. 11:25:59 Especially when you know a page would have one, and it would have exactly the link you need. 11:26:11 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83272&oldid=83253 * Aonodensetsu * (+16) 11:26:23 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83273&oldid=83272 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) 11:26:51 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83274&oldid=83258 * Aonodensetsu * (+13) 11:27:38 [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83275&oldid=83273 * Aonodensetsu * (-7) 11:27:41 "Templates using the navbox (navbox) or nomobile (sidebar) classes are not displayed on the mobile web site of English Wikipedia" :( 11:27:45 (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Navbox ) 11:29:06 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83276&oldid=83271 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) 11:30:11 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83277&oldid=83276 * Aonodensetsu * (+101) 11:32:19 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83278&oldid=83277 * Aonodensetsu * (-6) 11:33:05 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83279&oldid=83278 * Aonodensetsu * (-28) 11:35:00 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83280&oldid=83279 * Aonodensetsu * (+127) 11:36:11 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83281&oldid=83280 * Aonodensetsu * (+177) 11:36:37 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83282&oldid=83281 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) 11:36:56 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83283&oldid=83282 * Aonodensetsu * (-4) 11:37:52 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83284&oldid=83283 * Aonodensetsu * (+12) 11:38:05 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83285&oldid=83284 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) 11:38:30 [[DotSnap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83286&oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (-1094) Blanked the page 11:39:08 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83287&oldid=83285 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) 11:39:42 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83288&oldid=83287 * Aonodensetsu * (-6) 11:43:57 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83289&oldid=83288 * Aonodensetsu * (+2475) 11:45:09 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83290&oldid=83289 * Aonodensetsu * (+46) 11:46:32 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83291&oldid=83290 * Aonodensetsu * (+79) 11:46:51 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83292&oldid=83291 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How to define a function? */ 11:47:02 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83293&oldid=83292 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* How to define a function? */ 11:48:37 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83294&oldid=83293 * Aonodensetsu * (-36) /* Naming of functions */ 11:48:46 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83295&oldid=83294 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Naming of functions */ 11:49:25 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83296&oldid=83295 * Aonodensetsu * (+64) /* Naming of functions */ 11:49:49 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83297&oldid=83296 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Undefined functions */ 11:49:58 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83298&oldid=83297 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Why CALL? */ 11:50:37 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83299&oldid=83298 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Why LOOK? */ 11:50:56 sigh, microedits 11:52:09 that's a while(true) 11:52:27 fizzie: Germany, meanwhile, still hasn't managed to get that coveted last place... hard to do when your competitor gets a perfect score. 11:52:50 oh that's a guy with [Category: 2021] 11:53:09 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83300&oldid=83299 * Aonodensetsu * (+334) /* Why LOOK? */ 11:53:28 int-e: The BBC narration during the vote-counting was a bit painful to listen to. 11:53:41 I won't listen to it then :) 11:54:06 (if it can even be found... I suppose it can) 11:54:38 I'm sure it's in the "iPlayer" (BBC's online thing), though I guess it might be geo-restricted. 11:54:42 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83301&oldid=83300 * Aonodensetsu * (+11) /* Why LOOK? */ 11:54:50 Especially the part where "we" (I don't know which country is "we" at this point) got 0 from the public vote as well. 11:55:24 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83302&oldid=83301 * Aonodensetsu * (+31) /* Conditional jumps? */ 11:55:26 fizzie: 0 is an achievement: https://nitter.fdn.fr/ariadneconill/status/1396035169828675585#m 11:56:47 I watched the bad-bitrate iPlayer stream because I keep forgetting the cheap DVB stick I have for RTL-SDR reasons can actually do it's nominal job too. 11:56:58 Not sure if the subjective quality of DVB-T is any better though. 11:57:07 that website makes an awful google translate job 11:57:35 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83303&oldid=83302 * Aonodensetsu * (+13) /* Conditional jumps? */ 11:57:54 nakilon: huh? 11:58:05 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83304&oldid=83303 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* What can we do with this? */ 11:58:13 int-e it detects my location and writes in Russian 11:58:32 the mail-tester.com 11:58:36 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83305&oldid=83304 * Aonodensetsu * (-72) /* What can we do with this? */ 11:58:41 nakilon: ah, nasty. it's english for me... maybe it's parsing the HTTP language preferences? 11:59:18 (if it was geo location based, it would be german for me) 11:59:48 maybe browser language, yeah 11:59:52 it would also be in contradiction to what nitter is supposed to be... non-JS, non-tracking. 12:00:25 locale is in my request headers 12:01:18 nakilon: you can replace the nitter.fdn.fr by twitter.com 12:02:16 I mean the https://www.mail-tester.com/test-kxlo1dgf7 link 12:03:06 nitter is in eng for me 12:04:48 nakilon: Oh. Hmm. But that was in english too when I tried. 12:05:02 But I withdraw the rest of the remarks then 12:05:08 ..D 12:06:12 I did manage to get a 0.7 score on first try though... HELO mail didn't work out well: no reverse DNS, and failed SPF check, both worth -4 points each. 12:06:22 Accept-Language: ru,en-US;q=0.9,en;q=0.8,uk;q=0.7 12:07:00 Then -1 for not doing DKIM, and -0.3 because my test mail looked a bit like spam. Fun :) 12:07:17 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83306&oldid=83305 * Aonodensetsu * (+93) 12:07:52 they are doing a clever thing 12:08:20 they make you send an email to the address that they associate with your browser cookies/fingerprint 12:08:31 yes, I know 12:08:33 basically deanon 12:09:44 I should send one of those esolangs.org wiki password recovery emails there, I'm sure it'd score quite badly too. 12:10:21 nakilon: (my) cookies are ephemeral at least :P 12:11:14 and the field is empty if you curl 12:11:24 but mostly... I'm not really expecting all that much privacy from browsing the web. 12:11:43 nakilon: yes, they had all opportunities for fingerprinting the browser that they need 12:11:49 * int-e shrugs 12:12:11 after the third test, they ask for payment, so there's some hope that *that* is their primary business model 12:12:34 (it's rate limited, 3 free tests per day) 12:12:45 my ISP recently mailed everyone with a link to a service to "test your password" 12:13:00 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83307&oldid=83306 * Aonodensetsu * (-13) 12:13:05 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83308&oldid=83307 * Aonodensetsu * (-34) 12:13:09 ugh, was that genuine or spam? 12:13:23 . o O ( I test my password every time I log in! ) 12:13:35 idk, some another website that "check if your password is leaked" 12:14:12 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83309&oldid=83308 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Implementation */ 12:14:20 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83310&oldid=83309 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* External resources */ 12:14:33 > 48/60 -- 80% is quite impressive 12:14:35 0.8 12:15:06 I live in a totally new building where there is only one monopolist ISP so they are free to have higher internet price and send absolute trash emails 12:15:37 (users here vs. users there, so take that % with a lot of salt) 12:16:19 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83311&oldid=83310 * Aonodensetsu * (+42) /* External resources */ 12:16:33 fun :-/ 12:17:19 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83312&oldid=83311 * Aonodensetsu * (-96) /* External resources */ 12:17:27 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83313&oldid=83312 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* External resources */ 12:17:41 usual 100 mbit/s internet in Moscow costs $6, here it's almost $8 12:19:58 and sometimes it routes weirdly, like there were several months of connecting to Finland game servers via France resulting in 3 times higher ping 12:20:28 support said "we can't do anything about this, the internet is magic beyond our responsibilities" 12:41:52 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83314&oldid=83313 * Aonodensetsu * (-54) /* Why LOOK? */ 12:45:56 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 12:53:13 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83315&oldid=83314 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) 13:00:29 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:08:15 -!- Wezl has joined. 13:20:49 As all the discussion is here now perhaps the /topic on freenode should be updated to point thisaway? 13:22:02 Deewiant: the admins over there literally made that against the rules 13:22:11 so best we can do is prod people over the bridge 13:22:33 Ah, wonderful 13:31:40 Yeah, I read about that ##hntop thing. 13:32:01 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:32:47 I don't know if I'd describe it as "against the rules", the ("draft") policy just says approximately that channels "that have moved" can be claimed by anyone. 13:33:29 I'd maybe still be a bit wary about putting something in topic specifically, maybe that's how they look for victims. 13:34:31 We could make it official on the wiki, I was kind of considering doing that once our proper community registration goes through. (Still no reply, but I imagine there's quite a queue. Our ticket number is in the 500-600 range.) 13:39:38 Well, rules... 13:40:38 I think we should add a reference to the topic anyway; if Freenode takes over the channel for that so be it. 13:40:46 We had ticket #44 and it took quite a while 13:41:11 int-e: why risk fragmenting the community like that. They’d likely kickban the bridge bot too 13:41:21 Oh, I guess it's also against the rules ("inappropriate advertising") to have "unused channels for the purpose of polluting the channel list results". 13:41:29 because the bridge will stop being useful 13:41:48 brctl: ignore int-e 13:41:48 brctl: ignoring 13:42:30 brctl: unignore int-e 13:42:30 brctl: unignoring 13:42:38 /!\ ;) Re the policy changes: https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/compare/e48c814...4210b31 13:42:42 (a bit too early for ignores, but I will do that eventually. 13:42:51 fizzie: /!\ yeah I knew about that :) 13:43:41 fizzie: And I mean both the "/!\" and the changes. 13:46:17 fizzie: Honestly that one is a bit more understandable. The rule lawyer in me suggests +s 13:50:07 [[Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+6373) Created the page 13:51:03 I wonder how many people have found the channel by listing, anyway. Probably not a huge fraction. 13:51:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:57:40 I have a feel that "random read and push" is less powerful than "random write and pop" 14:00:47 without random write once the task becomes complex enough (involves several variables) it makes RASEL stack grow infinitely, like the Fibonacci[n] case does in my example 14:01:39 or am I missing some solution 14:15:53 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83317&oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+155) Correcting some mistakes 14:16:38 or should I finally stop resisting and add random write to RASEL 14:17:34 fizzie: I don't recall whether it was one of the (now defunct) mailing lists, or a discussion elsewhere on IRC... 14:17:41 but probably not the wiki 14:23:07 I could make the "reverse N top elements on stack" command that can be used as both random read and write 14:23:14 and I feel like I saw some language with it 14:25:14 nakilon: Piet has something a bit like that 14:26:08 actually wiki search re veal a plenty of such 14:28:25 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83318&oldid=83317 * Cypooos * (+168) Added the Categories 14:30:28 hmmm maybe the assumption that "reverse N top elements" can be used for random read and write was too fast 14:30:51 " We could make it official on the wiki" => if you do that, also switch over what the logs default to on your logs web interface, because I feel like that's part of what makes it official 14:31:20 once you do the reverse you lose the access to all the top values that you were working with 14:33:35 fizzie: queue a couple of days ago was 220 project registrations in the backlog https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1396029243101007873 14:38:09 [[BALAE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83319&oldid=82560 * WallGraffiti * (+505) Added examples + corrected descriptions of "{" and "}" operators. 14:38:28 okay, I imagine the read(N) now: reverse(N), dup, reverse(N+1), reverse(N-1), reverse(N) -- 5 operations, can it be shorter? 14:39:15 eventually we will have to speed up redirecting everyone by just making the freenode channel invite only and kicking everyone, but for now it probalby helps more if people see a bridge 14:39:29 not everyone is on irc every day, there are new people who won't have heard of the freenode drama for years 14:42:50 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83320&oldid=83318 * Cypooos * (+2) Correcting mistakes 14:43:37 The new logs web interface -- https://logs.esolangs.org/ -- doesn't really default to either. I was going to make https://esolangs.org/logs/... URLs to forward to the freenode logs to keep old permalinks working, but the plain /logs/ path with no file specified I could point arbitrarily. 14:43:49 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83321&oldid=83320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Resources */ Fix link 14:43:50 This would also be probably the best chance to change the permalink syntax not require anchor names to be case-sensitive, if we want to. IIRC, the spec says they *are* case-sensitive, but (pre-Edge?) IE didn't treat them as such, so `#la` was the same as `#lA`. But maybe that's no longer so relevant. 14:44:15 Base 62 is a little more compact than base 36 would be. 14:47:54 now write(N,top): rotate(N), rotate(N+1), swap, pop, rotate(N) -- 5 operations too 14:48:04 and N should be static in both cases 14:48:10 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83322&oldid=83315 * Aonodensetsu * (+291) 14:48:20 (that's the limitation I don't like) 14:48:40 oh, https://logs.esolangs.org/ is the new interface? ok 14:48:56 wait, odd number of rotations, heh, missed something 14:49:46 fizzie: pre-edge IE is dying out though, isn't it? 14:50:02 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83323&oldid=83321 * Cypooos * (+0) Correcting some mistakes 14:50:54 fizzie: there doesn't seem to be an easy link from https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html back to the top or to the other channel's logs 14:51:46 Re pre-Edge IE, probably. I feel like oerjan's the only one who ever noticed those links didn't work on some browser. 14:53:15 nakilon: write is only 3 steps, rotate(N+1), pop, rotate(N-1) 14:53:17 I've not made any changes to the version running at /logs/ so it won't know the other channel exists. As for getting back to the top, yeah; though logs/ is the same page as logs/YYYY.html of the current year, so clicking on the year gives you the same view. 14:53:52 In the new thing, I can do some changes to integrate them a little better. Haven't yet, though. 14:55:53 What I *have* changed so far is to put the top announcement and the bottom about text into the configuration file rather than a `constexpr char[]` variable, so I can change them without recompiling. ;) 14:56:16 (And of course the ability to serve from more than one root.) 14:56:19 int-e true 15:03:44 -!- oren has joined. 15:05:38 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83324&oldid=83322 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? */ 15:06:02 so the bad thing is that N has too be static or you'll lose it immediately on the first rotate, so I'm now thinking about another operation instead -- swap(N) that swaps the top element with the Nth one 15:06:57 the write(N) then is trivial, but read(N) is complex and as far as I can imagine relies on write(N) 15:11:32 so assuming the stack is [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, X, N] to put the X to Nth position under it would be the: swapn, pop 15:12:22 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83325&oldid=83324 * Aonodensetsu * (+59) 15:12:40 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83326&oldid=83325 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? (WIP as apparently it needs to be the EXTENDED conjecture) */ 15:14:29 fizzie: also that explains why someone mentioned wikia and their tactic of "no, you can't edit the nethack.wikia.org front page to say that https://nethackwiki.com/ is a more up to date more actively maintained fork of the wiki 15:14:55 hey, it looks like https://nethack.wikia.org/ is deleted! what happened? 15:16:06 I mean it would actually started to have become useful right now, when a lot of nostalgic folks might think that Nethack 3.4.3 is the one true canonical version and perhaps not every page on the wiki should be updated to reflect the 3.6 branch changes because now it's harder to find reliable info about 3.4.3 15:16:33 though perhaps that nostalgic target audience wouldn't go to wikia anyway 15:18:25 I should actually learn to play NetHack one day 15:18:46 I've tried a few times but I've not been patient enough to do any well at it 15:19:06 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83327&oldid=83326 * Aonodensetsu * (-140) 15:20:08 Taneb: there were some IRC channels on freenode that could help you in that 15:20:44 b_jonas: sadly I am no longer on Freenode 15:20:56 Perhaps there may be some IRC channels elsewhere soon 15:21:22 Taneb: yes, and I don't know where those IRC chnanels are right now, and they might not know yet too 15:21:46 but there will probably still be an IRC presence in the long term 15:21:48 There's a note at the top of https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Freenode that may provide a hint 15:24:10 -!- sprock has quit (Quit: brb). 15:24:33 I think I'll give NetHack another go this evening 15:25:17 I've been hanging around on the #nethack channel (formerly on freenode, now here), but I don't know if there's usually that much learning going on in there. 15:25:26 Which isn't to say you wouldn't get answers if you asked a question. 15:26:17 -!- sprock has joined. 15:26:20 I use it mostly to watch Rodney's announcements of games on NAO every now and then, because sometimes the deaths can be quite amusing. 15:27:06 now if it's [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, N] to read the Nth position under it would be: dup, dup, dup, 2, +, swapn, dup, 3, swapn, swap, 1, +, swapn, pop 15:27:07 "killed by a wolf, while taking off clothes" and so on. 15:27:37 lol, 14 operations to for random write with this swapn operator 15:27:40 fizzie: some of it has moved to other channels... let me look up the name 15:27:56 I mean for random read 15:28:02 freenode/#hardfought 15:28:21 also some of the learning is concentrated in the two months with big nethack competitions 15:28:25 (online obviously) 15:29:01 why nethack if there is dcss 15:29:54 nakilon: I'd recommend adding a primitive that pops an index, then swaps the top of stack with an element deep in the stack with that index. that's probably the easiest and simplest thing you can add that guarantees to solve both the random access problem and the problem that you don't have extra registers and can't easily permute the top of stack 15:30:11 If your name is Jack, and one of your hobbies is listening to music, and you usually do it with headphones, would you consider "Headphone Jack" as a nickname? These are the kind of things I think about when plugging in headphones for a meeting. 15:30:31 "Who's that? Oh, that's Headphone Jack." 15:30:44 b_jonas that's exactly the swapn I was using just now 15:31:27 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:31:30 and it resulted in 2 operations for random write and somehow the whole 14 for random read 15:32:05 nakilon: ah good 15:32:54 nakilon: if you want to make the code shorter, I'd just add a handful of named registers with load and store instructions 15:33:00 one-byte ones of course 15:33:23 though you may also have a point about no easy way to write numbers larger than 9 or 15 or whatever it is 15:33:31 if that turns out to be a problem, add an instruction for that 15:33:52 adding registers has the problem that there is no defined amount of how many registers you need 15:33:59 or, I dunno, why do I care about rasel anyway? I don't have any reason 15:34:10 adding two will solve "half" of problems, then you'll need 3 for another 1/4, etc, 15:34:22 nakilon: seven registers. it's seven. 15:34:37 so 14 instructions for them 15:35:38 that would be dc 15:45:44 I think that'll be it; deprecating random read 'a', introducing random top-swap 's'; with static N it would be not 14 operations but just a few: 0, N, swapn, dup, N+1, swapn, pop 15:49:00 the swapn of evil 15:49:01 then the fibonacci will no longer be memory-leaking 15:51:53 I could even then deprecate '\' in favor of '0s' 15:52:40 or just redefine the '\' to also always pop a N 15:58:36 hehe "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_(sports)#Ice_hockey" "The NHL no longer permits the use of 0 or 00 as the League's database cannot list players with such numbers" 15:59:43 b_jonas why care -- because its specification is shorter than befunge while more full, and it's installable with one command ) 16:06:36 fizzie: you really should add a link from to the other channel, it would be a helpful way to advertise the move to people 16:07:24 especially since the policies on the old network might cause a problem with the bridge: you probably have to advertise that there's a bridge to a public place the same as you advertise that you have a public log, but you might not be able to do that without advertising the move 16:11:31 Yeah. Well, I hope I'll get the stalker/lurker/stream mode fixed in a day or two, at which point I'll have the previous single-channel URL redirect to the new multi-channel one, and can also add some links to the latter. 16:12:41 thanks 16:14:47 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83328&oldid=83232 * Oshaboy * (+91) Added Categories 16:31:44 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:32:15 -!- imode has joined. 16:33:17 -!- kluk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:37:51 we'll also have to summon kspalaiologos because they might want to modify their logbot, and I don't even know who makes the tunes.org logs 16:45:35 -!- MrAureliusR has joined. 16:48:20 -!- kluk has joined. 16:48:55 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:50:22 -!- kluk has joined. 16:53:47 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alpha2 * New user account 16:55:43 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:56:20 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83329&oldid=83254 * Alpha2 * (+228) 16:56:51 -!- kluk has joined. 16:58:40 -!- MrAureliusR has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in). 16:58:57 -!- MrAureliusR has joined. 17:00:38 I wrote my first Whitespace program today 17:00:47 It's hard to find an editor that doesn't clobber things 17:02:23 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:03:12 There's at least one Vim thing to syntax-highlgiht Whitespace, I assume it would also tweak the other settings correctly. 17:03:22 -!- kluk has joined. 17:09:06 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:10:50 -!- kluk has joined. 17:15:30 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:17:28 -!- kluk has joined. 17:22:33 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:23:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RanibowSprimkle64 * New user account 17:24:23 -!- kluk has joined. 17:27:38 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:29:07 -!- op_4 has joined. 17:29:16 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:30:02 -!- kluk has joined. 17:30:22 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83330&oldid=83329 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+305) 17:36:00 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:37:22 -!- kluk has joined. 17:42:43 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:44:15 -!- kluk has joined. 17:49:28 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:51:23 -!- kluk has joined. 17:55:48 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83331&oldid=83328 * Tux1 * (+83) 17:56:12 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:57:50 -!- kluk has joined. 17:59:41 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:29 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 18:00:31 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tux1 * uploaded "[[File:4bod example.png]]": An example of a program written for the 4BOD fantasy console. This program draws a 2x2 square in the middle of the screen. 18:01:40 -!- cd has changed nick to moony. 18:02:54 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:03:51 -!- kluk has joined. 18:04:44 -!- moony has changed nick to cd. 18:05:00 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83333&oldid=83331 * Tux1 * (+32) added image 18:09:37 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:10:52 -!- kluk has joined. 18:11:18 so what's the policy about channel squatting? I wanna squat a company channel that is big enough on freenode but they are just idling and not coming here yet 18:14:39 For now I don't think there's any problem unless another claim for the same channel comes along. In the medium term, this whole #/## business will probably need sorting out :/ 18:14:55 ah ok, "... a channel belonging to a project you are _authorized to represent_", nvm then 18:15:10 the "chanserv help claim" 18:15:23 int-e: Two sigils and three separate namespaces is kind of an odd combination. :) 18:15:55 Hah 18:16:21 Let's see the linux developers (linux project) get into a fight with the linux users (community) over #linux 18:16:21 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:16:30 fungot: popcorn? 18:16:31 int-e: let me try to be brief. that being so, i am very surprised to see the light. 18:16:40 that was surprisingly brief 18:16:42 ^stule 18:16:50 ^style 18:16:50 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 18:17:21 the channel I want is #gcloud -- it's the same dead as their thousands users large Slack team 18:18:26 nakilon: also it has to be on topic, which basically means related to a free software project 18:18:43 -!- kluk has joined. 18:18:57 their SDK are free software I guess 18:19:10 Also "projects/companies of general interest to our user base", which might cover technologies like that. 18:19:19 int-e: no way. linux developers don't use IRC. they communicate only by emailed formatted patches. 18:19:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:19:25 [[User:RanibowSprimkle64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83334 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+792) Created page with "This is the description of my first programming language, if it isn't formatted well or more information is needed, let me know, I don't know how to forum at all, really... L..." 18:19:59 b_jonas: there goes my entertainment for the evening 18:21:38 we can generate a fake mailing list website from this channel log 18:21:58 using nickname mentions to follow the threads, etc. 18:22:42 and every message will become a cached page in webarchive 18:23:11 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:24:10 -!- kluk has joined. 18:26:48 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:27:13 -!- kluk_ has joined. 18:31:15 -!- kluk_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:31:42 -!- kluk has joined. 18:31:50 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83335&oldid=83333 * Tux1 * (+38) 18:36:35 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:37:17 -!- kluk has joined. 18:39:36 -!- immibis has joined. 18:43:18 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:44:53 -!- kluk has joined. 18:45:02 hi 18:48:11 [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83336&oldid=83323 * Cypooos * (+13) Correcting generality difference between the mathematical definition and the implementation 18:50:02 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:51:39 -!- kluk has joined. 18:54:44 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:55:03 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 18:56:45 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:58:10 -!- kluk has joined. 19:03:28 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:05:20 -!- kluk has joined. 19:10:12 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:10:58 -!- kluk has joined. 19:16:58 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:18:13 -!- kluk has joined. 19:22:47 Are there alternatives to Language Server Protocol? 19:23:39 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:24:33 -!- kluk has joined. 19:29:44 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist). 19:30:27 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:31:14 -!- tech_exorcist has joined. 19:32:10 -!- kluk has joined. 19:33:37 -!- Thelie has joined. 19:34:17 I feel like clangd predated LSP and had a (C-specific) protocol of its own in the past, but (a) I may be wrong about that, and (b) in any case it no longer does. 19:34:59 Google's Kythe project has a protocol that I think is in somewhat in the same space, but not quite the same thing. 19:35:18 Those are the only two things that come to mind; I don't know of anything that'd have the same goals as LSP. 19:35:39 -!- immibis_ has joined. 19:35:57 -!- kluk_ has joined. 19:38:01 -!- cd5 has joined. 19:38:25 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:38:38 -!- sprock has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by sprocklem))). 19:38:43 -!- sprocklem has changed nick to sprock. 19:38:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:40:31 -!- kluk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:40:31 -!- cd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:44:37 -!- Thelie has quit (*.net *.split). 19:44:37 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 19:44:37 -!- immibis has quit (*.net *.split). 19:46:35 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:46:45 -!- arseniiv has joined. 19:49:41 -!- cd5 has changed nick to cd. 19:53:52 -!- nakilon5 has joined. 19:54:41 -!- Lykaina has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:54:49 -!- Lykaina has joined. 19:55:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:55:57 -!- nakilon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:55:57 -!- nakilon5 has changed nick to nakilon. 19:55:59 -!- jinn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:56:06 -!- jinn has joined. 19:56:35 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:02:17 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:03:33 -!- j4cbo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:05:00 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 20:07:26 -!- j4cbo has joined. 20:08:37 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:08:54 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:09:15 -!- HackEso has joined. 20:09:16 -!- arseniiv has joined. 20:09:53 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Algj * New user account 20:10:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:13:02 -!- Cale has joined. 20:18:03 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis. 20:20:39 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:22:08 -!- Trieste has joined. 20:22:20 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 20:59:22 -!- imode has joined. 21:03:45 [[Capuirequiem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83337&oldid=65570 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+373) Amended some orthographic mistakes and reformulated a few parts. 21:04:38 [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83338&oldid=83236 * Hyperdawg * (+46) 21:10:18 Also, I don't know if LSP has the way to specify the character encoding of the source file; I could not find any when looking at the documentation. 21:12:34 it may assume UTF-9 21:12:36 *UTF-8 21:12:43 which makes sense 99.99% of the time tbf 21:15:48 Approximately, yes, but sometimes it is different, and this may be specified inside of the file itself. (Although ASCII is very common, and UTF-8 is a superset of ASCII, so this will usually work both for ASCII and for UTF-8. It is also necessary to ensure that the byte order mark is omitted if the program doesn't expect it) 21:16:09 no no, it's always the national characterset of the region where the game is commercially sold, the only one that's in the character ROM of the console where it's played. how could it be anything else? then you'd need some sort of translation layer from the text to what you can actually display. 21:20:08 Sometimes it may be. However, in those cases, I would expect hopefully some way to detect it, either in the file itself or in something external. (For text files, this may be either a comment or some directive; for binary files the region code might be specified in the header, perhaps, if executing it depends on the region code. For NES/Famicom there is no console character ROM, but for other computers it may be.) 21:22:29 detect? no, you don't detect it. if you put it into the console in the wrong region, some characters will show up as nonsense, which doesn't matter because the player couldn't read foreign language anyway. at worst some of the corner line drawing characters would show up silly too. and if it's a very different region, it won't even work because of NTSC versus PAL or different shape of the cartridge 21:22:35 interface. 21:23:12 (NES/Famicom does have region coding, but for emulation it is generally sufficient to distinguish between NTSC and PAL. For actual cartridges, the cartridge itself is physically different between NES and Famicom; the NES cartridge doesn't have expansion audio.) 21:26:38 and the japanese NES has some games on floppy instead of a cart, so that's a third incompatible format, even if they're both NTSC 21:27:03 However, NES/Famicom doesn't have any ROM inside the console, so the character encoding is not a problem here. 21:29:07 yes, it worked the same way then as now: they make the console cheapest as possible, even if that means they have to duplicate character ROM, RAM expansion, and sometimes even more stuff in each cartridge 21:29:17 ok, not quite 21:29:22 back then they actually made the hardware cheap 21:29:40 now they're just selling it cheap and selling the games expensive, it's not that the games come on carts with expensive extra hardware 21:30:14 Yes, there is the Famicom Disk System. However, that uses a special cartridge. (I have never seen any emulator though that allows you to load multiple BIOS images and to load another disk image file without resetting) 21:31:12 zzo38: surely emulators on home PC consoles like the Commodore 64, which have built-in ROM and expansion cards, support that 21:31:44 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:33:15 b_jonas: Yes, but I mean NES/Famicom emulators specifically 21:34:05 do they emulate crazy cartridge swapping realtime speedruns, or speedruns where people put their console on a hot plate or cause deliberate hardware errors in other ways? :-) 21:34:18 I mean the NES probably isn't the most common console for that 21:35:18 Some stuff in the cartridge can also be used to customize the hardware for different games, which is sometimes helpful. The small amount of RAM in the console is not usually an advantage, although I have designed a mapper to take advantage of the RAM mirroring in order to improve bankswitching speed; this is a kind of simpler way than implementing read-back in the cartridge 21:37:56 (For example, if $1000-$1FFF, $3000-$3FFF, $5000-$5FFF, and $7000-$7FFF are all mapped to the bank switching register, then you can write to $1050 and it bankswitches, later write to $1051 for another bank, and later, read $1050 to switch the bank back to the first one (no need to write). This requires less logic in the cartridge, too.) 21:40:09 (You can also read/write the same memory at $0050 and $0051, without causing the bank switching. In this case, you might, for example, save the data for switching the bank later, or read it back without switching.) 22:03:08 -!- salpynx has joined. 22:20:34 `? towel 22:20:36 towel? ÂŻ\(°​_o)/ÂŻ 22:32:08 -!- kluk_ has changed nick to kluk. 22:35:43 A hopefully quick blip in the bot situation. 22:35:58 -!- esolangs has joined. 22:35:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs. 22:41:26 It's quite a house of cards. 22:58:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:00:53 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist). 23:03:51 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)). 23:12:57 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:31:23 [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83339&oldid=74588 * Unlimiter * (-17) 23:35:44 [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83340&oldid=83339 * Unlimiter * (+3) /* In-depth */ 23:36:49 [[Point]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83341&oldid=83340 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Countdown */ 23:38:45 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83342&oldid=83341 * Unlimiter * (-77) 2021-05-25: 00:00:26 And one more time, because the most recent multi-network refactoring broke the Prometheus metrics due to a lack of labels. 00:00:40 -!- esolangs has joined. 00:00:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs. 00:16:13 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jdonszelmann * New user account 00:20:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83343&oldid=83330 * Jdonszelmann * (+246) /* Introductions */ 00:21:11 -!- ski_ has joined. 00:23:03 -!- citrons_ has joined. 00:23:40 -!- zgrep_ has joined. 00:23:43 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:23:43 -!- citrons has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:23:43 -!- zgrep has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:28:01 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:28:44 -!- dnm has joined. 00:28:59 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski. 00:29:03 -!- fizzie has joined. 00:32:07 -!- zgrep_ has changed nick to zgrep. 00:35:43 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 00:36:08 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:37:12 -!- b_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 00:37:12 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 00:37:12 -!- leah2 has quit (*.net *.split). 00:37:26 -!- b_jonas has joined. 00:38:21 -!- leah2 has joined. 00:38:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 00:41:44 [[Whopper]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83344&oldid=83235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Commands */ Lt get 01:05:32 -!- shachaf_ has quit (Changing host). 01:05:32 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 01:05:35 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 02:33:26 -!- joast has joined. 02:39:05 -!- joast has left. 02:39:34 -!- joast has joined. 04:53:13 wow, freenode #esoteric is smaller than this channel right now 04:53:19 (56 vs. 58) 04:54:03 `grWp freenode 04:54:06 advertisement:Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ e:e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ freenode:The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The ChĂ€nnel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago? 05:08:38 `? libera 05:08:40 Libera is the land of the future. Maybe. 05:09:33 `slwd libnera//s/[^ ]*$/Probably./ 05:09:34 Roswbud! 05:09:39 `slwd libera//s/[^ ]*$/Probably./ 05:09:43 libera//Libera is the land of the future. Probably. 05:26:29 I don't (yet) know what should be the syntax for meta-CSS. 05:35:55 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83345&oldid=83327 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* MATH variable input order explanation */ 05:36:10 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83346&oldid=83345 * Aonodensetsu * (-8) /* Commands */ 05:52:23 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83347&oldid=83346 * Aonodensetsu * (-47) /* Quirks */ 05:58:37 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83348&oldid=83347 * Aonodensetsu * (+26) /* Naming of functions */ 05:59:00 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83349&oldid=83348 * Aonodensetsu * (+6) /* Naming of functions */ 06:00:09 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83350&oldid=83349 * Aonodensetsu * (+2) /* Conditional jumps? */ 06:02:34 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83351&oldid=83350 * Aonodensetsu * (+178) /* What can we do with this? */ 06:04:40 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83352&oldid=83351 * Aonodensetsu * (+10) /* Conditional jumps? */ 06:06:16 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83353&oldid=83352 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* MATH variable input order explanation */ 06:15:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:20:03 `` for k in Church Turing turning pi circle esoteric monad group future logic ; do ? $k|cut -f1,2,$((${#k}*3/2)) -d' ' ;done 06:20:26 Church invented Turing \ Turing is Tur. \ Turning is because \ pi is a \ A circle \ This channel esoterica, \ Monads are category \ Groups are property \ We know \ Logic is true 06:44:29 [[Talk:Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83354 * Ais523 * (+677) I don't think this is TC 06:46:51 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[DotSnap]]": Author request: blanked by author 06:47:24 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:51:08 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83355&oldid=83353 * Aonodensetsu * (+93) /* Quirks */ 06:51:19 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83356&oldid=83355 * Aonodensetsu * (+9) /* Quirks */ 06:52:15 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83357&oldid=83356 * Aonodensetsu * (+21) /* Quirks */ 06:53:13 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83358&oldid=83357 * Aonodensetsu * (+4) /* Quirks */ 06:53:26 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83359&oldid=83358 * Aonodensetsu * (+9) /* Quirks */ 06:55:53 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83360&oldid=83359 * Aonodensetsu * (+140) /* Quirks */ 06:56:56 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83361&oldid=83360 * Aonodensetsu * (+55) /* What can we do with this? */ 07:02:18 -!- slavfox has joined. 07:12:03 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83362&oldid=83361 * Aonodensetsu * (+392) /* Commands */ 07:12:36 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83363&oldid=83362 * Aonodensetsu * (-62) /* Commands extended */ 07:12:52 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83364&oldid=83363 * Aonodensetsu * (+26) /* Commands extended */ 07:13:03 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83365&oldid=83364 * Aonodensetsu * (-26) /* Commands extended */ 07:19:33 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83366&oldid=83365 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* Commands extended */ 07:19:45 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83367&oldid=83366 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Extended commands */ 07:20:05 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83368&oldid=83367 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Extended commands */ 07:24:07 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83369&oldid=83368 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Manual */ 07:24:21 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83370&oldid=83369 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* Extended manual */ 07:24:48 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83371&oldid=83370 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* Extended commands */ 07:26:05 42 runs, 69 assertions, 0 failures, 0 errors, 0 skips 07:26:13 lol 42 69 07:26:24 wasn't on purpose 07:27:18 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83372&oldid=83371 * Aonodensetsu * (+432) /* Extended manual */ 07:27:28 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83373&oldid=83372 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* GLOBALW [] */ 07:28:50 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83374&oldid=83373 * Aonodensetsu * (-123) /* Extended manual */ 07:29:08 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83375&oldid=83374 * Aonodensetsu * (+8) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */ 07:29:18 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83376&oldid=83375 * Aonodensetsu * (-12) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */ 07:30:24 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83377&oldid=83376 * Aonodensetsu * (+146) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */ 07:30:44 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83378&oldid=83377 * Aonodensetsu * (+4) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */ 07:31:00 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83379&oldid=83378 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */ 07:32:28 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83380&oldid=83379 * Aonodensetsu * (+122) /* Extended manual */ 07:41:15 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83381&oldid=83380 * Aonodensetsu * (+232) /* Extended commands */ 07:43:59 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83382&oldid=83381 * Aonodensetsu * (-40) /* Extended commands */ 07:53:16 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83383&oldid=83335 * Oshaboy * (+201) /* Specifications */ 07:53:31 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83384&oldid=83383 * Oshaboy * (+21) /* Specifications */ 07:54:09 [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83385&oldid=83384 * Oshaboy * (+66) /* Examples */ 08:03:53 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83386&oldid=83382 * Aonodensetsu * (+43) /* Extended commands */ 08:04:16 [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83387&oldid=83386 * Aonodensetsu * (-43) /* Extended commands */ 08:14:37 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:14:51 [[Talk:Clockwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83388&oldid=83004 * Bangyen * (+4) /* Cat Program */ 08:18:18 -!- jinn_ has joined. 08:18:19 -!- Lykaina_ has joined. 08:18:28 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 08:19:52 now \rasel is v1, `rasel will remain v0 08:24:19 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 08:24:19 -!- salpynx has quit (*.net *.split). 08:24:19 -!- jinn has quit (*.net *.split). 08:24:19 -!- Lykaina has quit (*.net *.split). 08:24:38 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:24:55 [[Talk:3x]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83389 * Bangyen * (+691) Created page with "== Multiplication == I'm pretty sure the multiplication program is incorrect. Below is the corrected version: 
 ??#333x#v333x^#3#v3333x3x3333x3x3^x(3#v3333x3x3333x3x3^x#33..."
08:26:09  is there any recommended list of infobox proglang items?
08:26:13 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
08:27:16  or how to see its internals, I see that it replaces "year" with "Appeared at", etc., so there is its code somewhere that I would like to look at
08:27:19  [[3x]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83390&oldid=81228 * Bangyen * (+102) 
08:27:25  have no clue in infoboxes
08:27:39  [[3x]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83391&oldid=83390 * Bangyen * (-2) 
08:27:54 -!- FireFly has joined.
08:28:28  ok found it https://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_proglang
08:29:19  [[3x]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83392&oldid=83391 * Bangyen * (+46) 
08:31:14  would be nice to also have a field "last version year"
08:40:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:46:51  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83393&oldid=83387 * Aonodensetsu * (-10) /* Extended commands */
08:47:29  btw, the Libera channel can be announced in /r/esolangs
08:53:19  [[RASEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83394&oldid=83247 * Nakilon * (+76) typesys, memsys; updated to RASEL v1.0.0
08:59:37  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83395&oldid=83393 * Aonodensetsu * (-40) /* Extended commands */
09:03:46  [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83396&oldid=83394 * Nakilon * (+0) /* Instructions */ typo
09:05:15  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83397&oldid=83395 * Aonodensetsu * (+429) /* GLOBALW / GLOBALR */
09:08:30  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83398&oldid=83397 * Aonodensetsu * (+196) /* CALL */
09:09:51  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83399&oldid=83398 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* CALL */
09:10:10  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83400&oldid=83399 * Aonodensetsu * (+120) /* Quirks */
09:14:02 -!- int-e has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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09:14:58 -!- int-e has joined.
09:18:55  Re "last version year", while it would be nice to *have* one, and I'm not arguing against one, it feels like one of those things that would get easily stale. Also a little ambiguous for something with multiple implementations.
09:19:15  Though it's probably true that most languages stop getting developed the same year the articles about them get written, and don't have more than one (or zero) implementations, so it'd still be mostly correct.
09:20:05  "ambiguous for something with multiple implementations" -- ttrue
09:20:50  but let it be a year of specification, not implementation
09:26:26  interesting stats https://projecteuler.net/languages
09:27:31  there are 4 guys who classified themselves as befungers https://projecteuler.net/language=Befunge though it's not necessary they mostly used it to solve 
09:28:01  I get redirected to the /about page from those links. (Maybe it needs sign-in.)
09:29:34  (Looking at ~/src/attic/euler, looks like I never did any of them in Befunge, I just did the first 100 in Python and forgot about it.)
09:32:41  ewww
09:33:16  https://i.imgur.com/RoMACey.png
09:33:52  I should get back into solving them in Agda
09:34:09  Sadly that's not a listed language category... I wonder if there's a way to request it?
09:35:18  my projecteuler folder is empty _OO
09:43:17  oh I guess they had some database problem few years ago; and probably this is why they say on Problem 1: "Completed a long, long time ago." and the whole list looks like this: https://dpaste.org/ReMy/slim
10:15:15 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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12:02:56 -!- jinn has joined.
12:35:21  so since RASEL does not allow program space modification unlike Befunge it becomes possible to estimate all the program flows
12:36:15  only "j" with no leading static value means the unpredictable branching
12:37:34  still even with this branching it's possible to know all the possible paths through the program space and makes some things possible -- I imagine the automatic one-lining
12:40:34 -!- Thelie has joined.
12:40:34  oh and "\" is unpredictable now too (
12:41:05  (forget the last line)
12:41:36  [[4BOD]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83401&oldid=83385 * Oshaboy * (-68) I forgot I did cls(0110)
12:51:46  oh yeash
12:51:54  how did that bot work?
12:51:57  \help
12:51:57  available commands: rasel; usage help: \help 
12:52:02  \echo ldjk
12:57:31  there should be a term "language encoding" that would mean all those brainfucks that are just using another alphabet and sometimes a word instead of a char
12:58:08  the language encoding isn't much a language
12:58:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:01:48  \rasel 3
13:02:10  \rasel 4.
13:03:18  \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
13:03:22  output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
13:03:30  hmm
13:04:33  \rasel A.
13:04:53  nakilon: how is this supposed to work?
13:06:01  \rasel Z0Z--,
13:06:23  \rasel ZZ0--,
13:06:27  \rasel -ZZ--,
13:06:39  does it only interpret hello world executables?
13:07:07  \rasel 4.4.4.4.4.4.
13:07:54  \rasel 5.0\@
13:07:56  \rasel 5.0@
13:08:15  yeah you missed the @ most of the times
13:08:57  ok, so why doesn't \rasel 5.0@ work?
13:09:07  since the timeout is 60s you basically just DDOSed it to the 16:06:34  thread error: # )
13:09:32  thet empty program is an infinite loop in rasel? 
13:09:53  because I set the limit to 1 concurrent execution, the later are coming into several minutes long queue and I guess you've killed that queue length too lol
13:10:07  On the wiki, we do make the distinction between https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_equivalents where the latter is close to your "language encoding".
13:10:17  the empty program might not match the bot regex and so won't be executed
13:10:17  "This category is for languages which are straightforward alternate syntaxes/encodings for brainfuck, with or without its I/O facilites. Languages which have semantics that differ from brainfuck's, even in small ways, do not belong in this category."
13:10:36  (There's probably some gray area there, though.)
13:10:42  \rasel 5.@
13:10:45  output: "5 ", exit code: 0
13:10:53  ah good
13:10:59  \rasel Z0Z--,
13:11:07  \rasel Z0Z--,0@
13:11:27  fizzie oh I see
13:11:56  damn I guess the queue size in 1 actually
13:12:13  I'll increase it a bit
13:12:32  but why doesn't the interpreter just terminate or error out when the program counter runs out the boundary?
13:14:10  https://i.imgur.com/N4BRfja.png I guess this should allow 4 infinite programs per 30 sec
13:14:33  takes up to 2 minutes to update
13:14:44  nakilon: also how do you give a multiline program to this bot?
13:15:38  "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
13:15:59  four infinite loops per 30 seconds, that's so fast!
13:16:01  b_jonas it's currently PRIVMSGing these error to me before I'm sure nothing will expose if I set it to tell errors right to the channel
13:16:29  lol
13:16:50  \rasel Z0Z--,0@
13:16:51  output: "F", exit code: 0
13:16:57  yes
13:17:01  ok, so
13:17:04  no multiline for now -- that's why I'm thinking about making the automatic one-lining translator
13:17:06  `echo \rasel Z0Z--,0@
13:17:08  ​\rasel Z0Z--,0@
13:17:23  > text "\\rasel Z0Z--,0@"
13:17:24   \rasel Z0Z--,0@
13:17:34 -!- river has quit (Changing host).
13:17:34 -!- river has joined.
13:17:36  leading space I guess
13:17:56  yes, but I had to try
13:18:33  theoretically I could make the multiline in the similar way I made the stind
13:18:36  *stdin
13:19:42  \help rasel
13:19:42  \rasel ; \rasel -stdin ; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
13:19:54  output: @echo hi
13:20:06  lambdabot: @echo ho
13:20:06  echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esolangs",":
13:20:06  lambdabot: @echo ho"]} target:#esolangs rest:"ho"
13:21:13  \reload remote
13:21:14  remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel"]
13:21:17  \help rasel
13:21:20  \rasel ; \rasel -stdin ; don't forget the '@' instruction or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
13:21:46  \rasel :Z0Y--,0@
13:21:47  output: "E", exit code: 0
13:22:09  \rasel: Y0Y--,0@
13:22:39  yeah, this probably won't cause a botloop
13:22:58  velik \rasel Y0Y--,0@
13:23:03  velik: \rasel X0Y--,0@
13:23:09  velik, \rasel X0X--,0@
13:23:27    when /\A\\(\S+) (.+)/
13:23:27      cmd, input = $1, $2
13:23:56  oh yeah, I know what I should test
13:24:03  escaping the output
13:24:12  give me a moment
13:24:44  I added 500 chars limit today but didn't test it though
13:25:00 -!- Melvar has joined.
13:28:46  also the Ruby's String#inspect is sanitizing funny char values enough to be nicely printed in terminal so I assume it would be enough sanitizing for IRC too
13:29:01  \rasel 0"~dlrow ,olleh"       :,"~"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:29:48  \rasel 0"~dlrow ,olleh"       :,"}"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:29:52  output: "hello, world~", exit code: 0
13:30:47  \rasel 0"~egassem motsuc"       :,"}"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:30:51  output: "custom message~", exit code: 0
13:31:07  `olist 1235
13:31:08  olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1235.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:31:44  \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"A"enil eno"       :,"}"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:31:45  output: "one line\nPRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:31:53  \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"D"enil eno"       :,"}"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:31:54  output: "one line\rPRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:32:01  \rasel 0"~enil rehtona: sgnalose# GSMVIRP"0"enil eno"       :,"}"-0D-1\?j  0@
13:32:03  output: "one line\x00PRIVMSG #esolangs :another line~", exit code: 0
13:32:14  hmm
13:33:17  \rasel W1W//.":",3.  0@
13:33:18  output: "1024 :3 ", exit code: 0
13:33:25  \rasel W1W//,  0@
13:33:26  output: "", exit code: 255
13:33:37  \rasel 01-,  0@
13:33:38  output: "", exit code: 255
13:35:39 -!- xkapastel has joined.
13:35:54  \rasel G1A//01--, G1C//02--, "r", 0@
13:35:55  output: "\xA1\xC2r", exit code: 0
13:36:10  actually there is really no protection against \x00 in my IRC bot library
13:36:48  that's harder to abuse on IRC than lf and cr
13:39:03  but oh, I see, the String#inspect made that "one line\x00PRIVMSG" escape
13:40:17  it's not in IRC bot but in the Function: https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/5125650327d950e145c664dcdb2043192e30932a/examples/google_cloud_function/app.rb#L10
14:04:47 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:09:14  this is awful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
14:11:03  what's the point to use "and" and "or" then if there is already a comma there, just a cluttering
14:14:42  github's  style is funny https://github.com/github/explore/blob/main/docs/styleguide.md -- "Avoid using "users" in favor of developers" -- there are no users now, only developers ..D
14:23:13  oh yeah, you said something about size
14:25:19  \rasel Z     1-:.8?j$0E-j    0@
14:26:10  \rasel Z. 0@
14:26:12  output: "35 ", exit code: 0
14:26:43  \rasel Z     1-:.81\?j$0C-j    0@
14:26:44  output: "34 0 ", exit code: 0
14:27:25  \rasel Z     1-::.81\?j$0C-j    0@
14:27:26  output: "34 34 0 ", exit code: 0
14:27:43  \rasel Z     1-::.81\?j$0E-j    0@
14:27:44  output: "34 -34 ", exit code: 0
14:28:11  \rasel Z     1-::.81\?j$0F-j    0@
14:28:12  output: "34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ", exit code: 0
14:28:16  that, yes
14:28:28  \rasel Z14//     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:28:29  output: "139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 1
14:28:35  \rasel W18//     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:28:36  *flood*
14:28:42  \rasel W16//     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:28:43  *flood*
14:28:52  \rasel W15//     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:28:54  *flood*
14:28:58  \rasel W14//     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:00  output: "127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ", exit code: 0
14:29:09  \rasel W14//0G--     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:10  *flood*
14:29:16  \rasel W14//0D--     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:17  output: "140 139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 
14:29:22  \rasel W14//0E--     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:24  *flood*
14:29:36  \rasel "groot".W14//0D--     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:37  *flood*
14:29:43  \rasel W14//0D--     1-::.81\?j$0H-j    0@
14:29:44  output: "140 139 138 137 136 135 134 133 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 
14:29:51  so this is the maximum that we can output
14:30:31  https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/32633794d50407ed981d15b7ec1f4a8b2d2923fa/lib/nakiircbot.rb#L51
14:30:42  not easy to abuse, but luckily we have other bots on the channel that are easier to abuse and also have a more convenient (though still somewhat esoteric) interface
14:31:02  the above velik's message is 437 chars long, and the rest 63 are gone for IRC protocol I guess
14:31:26  maybe I should limit the function to 400 chars output to not miss the end
14:31:44  I mean... you'll miss it anyway  but at least you'll see the exit code
14:34:37  "luckily we have bots to abuse" (c) b_jonas
14:56:13  who is CismonX?
14:58:30  wtf "Unless you're using a free third-party client which invokes GitHub's API, using some major features of GitHub requires nonfree JavaScript, which makes it unsuitable for free software hosting."
14:59:04  I guess he owns https://github.com/esolangs but abandoned the Github for the above "reason"
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15:23:03  The overhead isn't always terribly easy to calculate, because it depends on things like your hostname as seen by others (cloaked), and sometimes even whether they have that identify-msg capability on.
15:23:55  (Actually, how does the standard 512-byte payload-plus-crlf length limit work with IRCv3 message tags? Are they just exempt from the limit or what?)
15:24:15  Oh, I guess: "The size limit for message tags is 8191 bytes, including the leading '@' (0x40) and trailing space ' ' (0x20) characters. The size limit for the rest of the message remains unchanged at 512 bytes."
15:26:07  (With half allocated for the client to use and the other half for server-added tags, so that your message doesn't go over the limit no matter what the server adds to it.)
15:26:34  I wish the IRC message limit was more consistent and less historically limited 
15:26:59  But increasing it would probably break many clients
15:28:52  twitch v3 tags were huge
15:30:14  < @badge-info=subscriber/4;badges=subscriber/3,bits/1000;color=;display-name=volker027;emotes=;flags=;id=b0830d66-7cd5-4f03-b330-cd565a0710c9;mod=0;room-id=96726033;subscriber=1;tmi-sent-ts=1621460923658;turbo=0;user-id=478416199;user-type= :volker027!volker027@volker027.tmi.twitch.tv PRIVMSG #twigglesoft :Hi Twiggle and Chat 😀
15:30:40  didn't try to enable them here yet
15:32:47  if you are a free software purist you can't even use github because the server isn't free
15:33:23  nor most of the Internet
15:33:32  free software purism is very silly :I
15:34:52  I failed to understand what does the "nonfree Javascript" mean
15:35:10  “It’s not GPL as such bad”
15:35:46  People like that tend to treat not-GPL as blasphemy
15:35:53  V8 is BSD, ye, such a difference...
15:36:13  like if someone makes him pay for Chrome
15:37:08  In the context of games it’s even worse, as often times there what people /really/ mean by free is “I can build myself a copy so I don’t have to pay shit.”
15:38:05  nonfree javascript is js that you aren't allowed to copy and modify among other things
15:38:31  sure, you _can_ copy every script that is run in your browser, but you can also copy every program that is run on your cpu
15:38:46  I doubt he ever needed to copy or modify it
15:39:22  especially to use a Github
15:39:29  sure, most people don't need to modify the linux kernel
15:39:39  that does not mean people don't like it being free
15:40:09  people care about wrong things
15:40:23  they do, but freedom is not one of them
15:41:09  All software is free software if you're willing enough to break the law
15:41:31  (for legal reasons I do not encourage breaking the law)
15:41:47  I use Windows without paying and without breaking the law ..\
15:42:29  nakilon: different definition of "free" I think
15:42:31  (I mean, until I cracked it)
15:43:17  you are free to use it for personal entertainment, and it was free to download from microsoft.com but those links are dying for some reason
15:43:21  no need to crack windows, you can just deactivate the license check with standard tools
15:44:02  the "you are not activated" in the corner is exactly what annoys
15:44:25  people laugh at your screenshots
15:44:30  i'm not sure if this stays, i haven't touched a private windows in years
15:44:50  imagine making screenshots of your desktop to share
15:45:47  don't everybody on linux do that?
15:45:57  I saw even websites where they have galleries of them
15:46:13  a screenshot of my system would just be whatever applications are open
15:46:14  like a part of their forum
15:46:19  or like a green void
15:46:51  do you have a waifu as a background of your terminal?
15:46:59  *don't you
15:47:16  https://opensource.com/sites/default/files/uploads/advent-herbsluftwm.png actual screenshot of what my system looks like
15:47:56  damn I should fork ubuntu to make that "your system is inactivated" in the corner
15:48:10  there is Russian meme "Bolgen OS"
15:49:32  sometimes on TV journalists love to make news about "genious kids from deep of Siberia" and one was a local prodigy who even "made his own OS that his school is now trying to adopt"
15:50:00  and it was Bolgen OS -- an Ubuntu with his custom boot screen logo
15:50:48  we had something similar, some people claimed making a revolutionary new os that runs windows as well as linux applications
15:51:00  it was basically some mainstream linux distri with wine
15:51:09  windows 12!
15:55:21  maik mixdorf was the dude
15:55:26  "uniOS"
15:57:26  ow
15:57:29  Windows Sandbox seems to be unactivated. It's kind o annoying
15:58:10  they claimed to write 52 million LOCs with a team of 3 programmers :D
15:58:18  in 3 years
15:59:46  myname: lots of copy paste, or lots of IDE code generation I wonder
16:00:04  > 52000000/9
16:00:06   5777777.777777778
16:00:14  > 52000000/9/365
16:00:16   15829.528158295283
16:00:28  That's almost 16k lines per person per day
16:03:54  our pythonist made a 1.2 mln lines long commit
16:04:07  an hour before deploy
16:04:22  in prod
16:05:11  people can have a talent of commiting a lot
16:06:20  and github is full of the /vendor directories and probably even /node-modules or how it's called
16:06:24  love hyperboloid model even more: when you find the intersection of two distinct hyperbolic lines, their corresponding planes always intersect in a line. If it’s timelike, that means an usual intersection point; if null, that means an ideal point (the lines converge) and if spacelike, the lines diverge; and we can try to say they intersect in an imaginary point (like some imaginary conics stuff sometimes used when solving euclidean conic problems)
16:12:03  trying to decide should I write a simple SVG rendering of simple hyperbolic geometry things (like to illustrate various kinds of isometries there) and what computational model to use in that case. Hyperboloid coordinates are too stretched out when going far away from the origin, OTOH Poincaré disk is ailed by converse, and these two models seem best in computational ease?..
16:14:23  hm maybe floating point is good with hyperboloid model. How much precision is lost when doing arccosh(cosh(Ξ)) and arcsinh(sinh(Ξ)) asymptotically?..
16:15:09  you might wanna check if Mathematica already can do that
16:15:36  I mean making is simpler to render that stuff
16:15:44  *it
16:16:42  ah, I used its graphics functions many times, yeah. Though I want to move on to freer software :)
16:16:59  I generated many cool things with it, though
16:18:21  like this one https://i.postimg.cc/hcMqY6Xz/mandala3.png
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16:33:45  about arcsinh(sinh(ξ)): when ξ is large, it’s just ~ log(exp(ξ)) so there’s some amout of precision, though it fluctuates a bit: mantissas of exp(ξ) near 1.0 are worse than those near 2.0
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17:15:10  lol "zzo38 is the only esolanger who has an entry in Urban Dictionary."
17:17:04  arseniiv https://www.reddit.com/r/generative/
17:22:00  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * JaydenIrwin *  New user account
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17:24:22 -!- mich181189 has joined.
17:24:52  nakilon: oh much thanks!! I value procedural art things though I almost don’t do them myself at all, but still. Hopefully there are many useful ideas to use
17:25:37  arseniiv it's my dream to earn for life by selling drawing made by coding
17:26:09  nice dream!
17:27:05  one time I used an untrained neural network with a subtle drift of weights to generate sound
17:28:50  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * RubyPiec *  New user account
17:28:52  as expected it didn’t work quite well but still had made interesting sounds sometimes: https://freesound.org/people/arseniiv/packs/22686/ (warning: sometimes very harsh noise)
17:30:02  what might be interesting is that despite the high sampling rate, it sometimes generated pretty low frequency tones
17:31:45  so that should have been due to very long prominent cycles between “neurons”. And it I made initial networks more interesting rather than just uniformly random, then we might hear something magical

17:32:04  that was generated in Mathematica too
17:32:07  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83402&oldid=83343 * RubyPiec * (+258) introduction :o
17:33:06  brctl: help
17:33:06  brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
17:33:31  also I should warn they say Freesound’s streaming quality is lower than what you’d get by first downloading and then listening in your favorite player
17:34:55  that’s not obvious at all from just listening online without an offline downloaded reference, but it seems to be true
17:35:30  int-e: On that note, the way ignore lists and filter expressions are persisted is, I manually list them out in a query before restarting the bot and write them up in a config file. ;)
17:35:53  So if you change something and it reverts, it was probably me forgetting to do that.
17:36:07  (Not that the lists have changed so far.)
17:39:48  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83403&oldid=83402 * JaydenIrwin * (+192) /* Introductions */
17:44:09  hmm, I recognize only 18 people/bots both here and there (but I'm matching by nick except esolangs=esowiki) put differently, there are 47 unique users here, 37 unique users there
17:44:36  > 47+37+18
17:44:37   102
17:44:52  that seems about right, actually
17:44:56  [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83404&oldid=83274 * JaydenIrwin * (+14) /* S */
17:45:31  [[SF Code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83405 * JaydenIrwin * (+19) Created page with "This is a new lang."
17:48:54  [[SF Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83406&oldid=83405 * JaydenIrwin * (+189) Started page
17:51:58  I think this might be the only parallel-universe channel I'm on that has a majority here.
17:52:27  Though I parted two that moved officially.
17:53:59  #haskell is at 443 vs. 673, ##math at 244 bs. 702, that's the two biggest channels I'm in
17:54:42  #haskell has semi-officially moved, but is probably being held back by the lack of matrix bridge
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17:55:29  (which is being worked on)
17:56:23  ##math is so far from FOSS that I'm actually pleasantly surprised by those numbers
17:58:24  what's even more telling in the case of #haskell is that the latest discussion was about how to register a nick when libera requires SASL
17:58:47  #go-nuts is 282 vs. 492 (with an in-review CL to change the website, but I don't know if that's going to go through) and #c/##c is 344 vs. 855, I think those are my biggest ones.
17:59:11  [[SF Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83407&oldid=83406 * JaydenIrwin * (+863) added symbol table
18:03:41  also consider editing the IRC channel here if anyone cares https://github.com/angrykoala/awesome-esolangs
18:03:48   ##math is so far from FOSS that I'm actually pleasantly surprised by those numbers => maybe the majority of its participants are other FOSS channel regulars? Erm it took me so long to remember “regular” and find it in a dictionary

18:04:28  so they hopped in a natural manner, not because of just ##math only
18:06:22  "might be the only parallel-universe channel I'm on that has a majority here." -- yeah, 328 / 76 for #ruby
18:06:37  I think the bridge is doing it
18:07:35  [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * JaydenIrwin *  uploaded "[[File:SF Code on Mac.png]]"
18:08:46  I think fungot did it.
18:08:46  fizzie: the texts parliament has voted for the fnord should be facilitated in claiming discretionary concessions available to pensioners from the state in the recitals, as parliament had already issued a global pronouncement on that second phase in november 1996 and 24 february 1997, the top priority of the intergovernmental conference.
18:08:59  this channel is like a maternity hospital
18:09:03  Also I think we've had enough of politics for a while.
18:09:06  ^style nethack
18:09:06  Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:09:08  seeing new languages being born lol
18:14:09  [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83409&oldid=83407 * JaydenIrwin * (+611) description
18:15:04  maybe #math users rarely have BNCs
18:15:22  so mostly they consist of "alive" people
18:16:44  I think you could CTCP VERSION spam everyone to check ..D
18:17:26  yeah, well, don't
18:18:03  also I imagine there's quite a few BNC-type people there who joined to ask one question and just stayed even though they never looked at the channel again
18:18:21  you know, people who are on 100+ channels anyway
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18:28:51  `relcome zzo38 
18:28:53  ​zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:33:25  Daniel Temkin was writing to me with interview questions. But, so far they only sent to me one set of questions and some clarifications which I have responded to both; they haven't sent to me the second set of questions yet.
18:34:43  This was the esoteric.codes person? (I'm bad with names.)
18:38:00  rottytooth
18:38:04  yes
18:38:59  Yes.
18:39:48  zzo38 I have an interview question for you
18:40:05  what is the game named Aksana? it sounds almost like Russian name
18:43:15  https://mathoverflow.net/questions/393688/generate-all-possible-theories-compatible-with-axioms/393713#393713
19:00:28  [[Brainfuck Assembly Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83410&oldid=82690 * Olus2000 * (+243) No more No-ops
19:02:15  nakilon: It is a ZZT game
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19:17:02  cool, it's playable in browser
19:18:55  Yes, and there are many other ZZT games too
19:19:59  Including, XYZABCDE.ZZT. (It says that ZZT is not Free software; that was true at the time the game was written; I didn't know that a year later ZZT would become Free software. Now ZZT is Free software.)
19:25:11 -!- xkapastel has joined.
19:37:56  https://libera.chat/news/one-week-of-libera-chat "We have managed to finalise registrations of 250+ projects, and we’re getting more and more all the time. Our backlog is as large as our finished registrations!"
19:38:49  For the record, our ticket number is in the 500-600 range, so I'm thinking it might be a while. Even if they're not all real.
19:39:40  (Not that I think lack of official recognition is exactly blocking anything.)
19:39:52  on which day did you apply #esolangs request?
19:40:05  The 22nd.
19:40:28  (Last Saturday.)
19:40:41  so it was like 60% of the current age?
19:41:45  fizzie: yeah, if there's a dispute about who the channel name belongs to that staff has to handle (unlikely for #esolangs), they can just review the registration request ahead of the queue for that
19:42:30  something doesn't sum up
19:43:10  if their "backlog is half done" and they've processed 250+, then it's only 600 tickets there
19:43:33  if ours is 500-600 then it's like no one requests anymore but I very much doubt
19:43:46  I think I heard something (fourth-hand information at this point) about spam to the project registration address, which might have generated extra ticket numbers that they don't actually count in their queue.
19:45:22  what does the "project registration" mean anyway? the channel is registered
19:45:42  is it about the control over #esolangs-*?
19:47:15  In practical terms, not much. It'd allow us to claim #esolangs-* channels, yes, but I don't think we're planning to.
19:47:39  Unless I migrate #esoteric-minecraft that has just had myself and Sgeo joining and parting for the last N years.
19:48:57  oh, they gave me #ruby-ru 6 minutes ago ..D
19:52:27  would it be possible to program in minecrafting using items?
19:57:25  There's definitely esolangs-y aspects to minecrafting, but the #esoteric-minecraft channel wasn't about that, we just had a social Minecraft server for hanging-out and building nonsense.
19:58:58  IIRC there is a Minecraft mod that operates docker
20:03:03  According to some screenshots I found, the version of the game at the time was Minecraft Alpha v1.2.2.
20:05:23  the first version I played was able to spawn nether portal by F4
20:05:44  I remember my first death ..D
20:06:26  Ooh, I found one of those generated map pictures too. https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/civilization.png
20:14:32  Ah, I remember #esoteric-minecraft
20:27:23  I crushed my metaphorical teeth trying to SU(1, 1) ≅ SO(1, 2) (PoincarĂ© ≅ hyperboloid). I should have searched for the exact expression of this iso but I was lazy and hopeful
20:35:31   would it be possible to program in minecrafting using items? => with droppers and various item filters (I don’t remember how are they made but IIRC they use hoppers and comparators) and various water elevators and water / blue ice conveyors and chutes you can move items in diverse ways. Also pressure plates of different properties detect different amounts of items; and you can duplicate (using something farmable) and destroy them
20:38:16  using dispensers with a bucket inside, you can switch water on and off, and you can send these buckets around, though conditional on whether a hopper can steal a bucket from inside a dispenser (I think it can?)
20:38:57  though shuttling many items around is poor for FPS and also they can start to despawn
20:39:47  anyway there are lots more ways to transport items there, like sliding down honey or something
20:42:46  this reminded me the last line of this article https://esolangs.org/wiki/Anarchysm
20:44:27  https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Minecraft_Pistons_Hello_World.png
20:47:16  there was something like that (people running “program requests”) somewhere at reddit or in IRC
20:51:03  I think that, should be added into C, the command for adding on to an existing macro. There are some other things that would be helpful too
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21:58:31  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * DynCoder *  New user account
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22:10:18  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83411&oldid=83403 * DynCoder * (+220) added me
22:10:53  [[User:DynCoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83412 * DynCoder * (+29) Created page with "Person who created [[goatoo]]"
22:16:51  [[User:DynCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83413&oldid=83412 * DynCoder * (+72) 
22:18:29  [[User:DynCoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83414&oldid=83413 * DynCoder * (+0) 
22:18:42  [[Talk:Unsquare]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83415 * Bangyen * (+485) Created page with "== [[Hello, world!]] == I'm pretty sure the correct program is as follows: 
 OA++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Po IA++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++P..."
22:19:25  int-e: My friend had a slightly different collision problem: Given hash functions f and g, find x and y such that f(x) = g(y)
22:20:36  shachaf: there's a standard solution for that: define h(x) = if p(x) the f(x) else g(x), where p(x) is a pseudo-random predicate
22:20:38  The solution I ended up with is pretty simple, but it's kind of neat.
22:21:01  shachaf: then any collision of h(x) is a collision between f and g with 50% probability
22:21:02  Oh man, that's my solution. Except I just used the low bit of x, which should be fine here presumably.
22:21:32  Do you happen to have a reference for this?
22:23:33  I think I've seen a name attached to it.
22:23:57  I wish I could remember :P
22:24:37  shachaf: maybe ##crypto knows
22:26:48  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83416&oldid=83404 * Fpstefan * (+16) 
22:28:56  I wonder what a NetHack TCG would be like
22:29:27  I wonder what a Sandwich TCG would be like.
22:31:06 * nakilon eats pizza
22:32:40  fungot: What would a NetHack TCG be like? 
22:32:40  fizzie: they say that you can defeat a killer bee is like eating a wraith is a force for good. the markings, teeth, creating a tremendous vice-like bite... piranhas are attracted to any disturbance in the dungeon, these swarming monsters are created evil, thieves, and sake.
22:32:54  I think it would contain at least those elements.
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22:37:48  there should be a game where enemies are named after esoteric languages
22:37:59  sometimes ugly as hell
22:39:08  [[Talk:Unsquare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83417&oldid=83415 * Bangyen * (+138) /* Hello, world! */
22:39:56  the Brainfuck monster according to its name would aim in the head attacking with psy waves
22:41:55  to defeat them you should write code in them
22:46:05  [[Pointfree programming]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83418&oldid=74534 * Fpstefan * (+124) 
22:46:30  shachaf: well, that went well.
22:46:34  I like a rule that you need not use the officially printed cards; you can use your own that contain the same text, if the mass, size, etc matches the official ones. If you are not using card sleeves, the back must also match.
22:47:00  cards?
22:47:07  hi zzo38
22:47:36 -!- imode has changed nick to FuckAndrewLee.
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22:50:45  [[Unsquare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83419&oldid=67140 * Bangyen * (+125) 
23:01:15  shachaf: So, of course it's attributed van Oorschot and Wiener, the same people who came up with the distinguished points parallel search, and even the same paper.
23:03:23  [[Goatoo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83420 * DynCoder * (+3439) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Goatoo |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:DynCoder]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/Joshua260403/goatoo GitHub] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=..."
23:03:47  [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83421&oldid=83420 * DynCoder * (+11) 
23:04:07  int-e: Right, I just realized this paper was already in my paper collection, and was just the original parallel rho/lambda paper.
23:04:20  So surely it should be cited one way or another.
23:24:10  woah
23:24:21  \rasel  output: " my first quine ever!
23:25:14  Wow nice quine!
23:25:32  \rasel  output: "<3@Y#\\3\x00\"", exit code: 3
23:25:39 -!- salpynx has joined.
23:28:44  [[RASEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83422&oldid=83396 * Nakilon * (+20) Quine
23:30:45  somehow it's twice shorter than Befunge quines
23:33:56  Not the Funge-98 quines though.
23:34:16   <@,+1!',ka"
23:34:22  (With the leading space.)
23:36:12  rosetta code has shorter Befunge than on Esolangs http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Quine#Befunge
23:37:28  Odd that we don't have that one, it's the kinda-obvious one.
23:38:09  probably "reading source is cheating" mentality
23:38:38  Nah, the one we do reads the source.
23:38:47  huh
23:39:01  It just does a bounce-around loop instead of the wraparound loop.
23:39:49  I imagine that could be replaced by the Rosetta Code one, at least as far as quine aesthetics go.
23:41:06  The stringmode quines get a little long in Befunge-93 because there's no coalescing of spaces, so you end up with having to trim them manually, and it gets slightly verbose to do on one line.
23:41:09  [[Talk:Clockwise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83423&oldid=83388 * Bangyen * (+202) 
23:41:17  [[Talk:Clockwise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83424&oldid=83423 * Bangyen * (+2) 
23:41:55  [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83425&oldid=83416 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* G */ Goatoo
23:42:24  Here's a Befunge-98 version with no leading space: <@,+1!',ka$"
23:43:34  hm, so funge-98 does not go around in the loop
23:43:53  maybe I could do that too with negative jump
23:43:56  `` echo "<@,+1!',ka$\"" > /tmp/q.b98; /hackenv/interps/cfunge/cfunge /tmp/q.b98
23:43:57  ​<@,+1!',ka$"
23:44:33  Annoying to escape something that contains both a ' and a " in bash.
23:44:48  (Is there something like Perl's arbitrary-delimiter thing?)
23:46:30  I don't get it why the space or $ in your example
23:46:39  what is it for
23:47:07  In stringmode, the infinite empty space around the program gets coalesced into a single ' ' character.
23:47:18  So the $ drops it; or the version with the leading space just contains it in the program.
23:47:23  oh
23:48:19  Also applies to any intervening spaces. To quote from the spec: "In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack."
23:48:21  RASEL cuts it
23:48:56  For wrapping in Funge-98, conceptually you just apply the above rule to the infinite amount of spaces your string would otherwise have.
23:50:49  [[Clockwise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83426&oldid=83187 * Bangyen * (+100) 
23:51:05  [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83427&oldid=83426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Cat program */ Fix (thanks, Bangyen)
23:51:29  [[Talk:Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83428&oldid=83424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+164) /* Cat Program */ Reply
23:54:38  ok, negative jumps sucks but I made it in one instead of two
23:54:40  \rasel <@,Yj#?\15:,"
23:54:42  output: "<@,Yj#?\\15:,\"", exit code: 5

2021-05-26:

00:00:57  " I wonder what a NetHack TCG would be like" => I was wondering about that at some point, and figured out some possible mechanics, but in the end it mostly comes down to making any good TCG core, then flavoring it to nethack by throwing in as many nethack references as you can. Same as you'd make a TCG for a TV series.
00:01:42  if computerized, the biggest way you could do it is simply to try and have as much foresight as nethack itself
00:01:46  good luck with  that though
00:02:14  You apply the potion of oil to the iron golem, it's attack power doubles!
00:02:31  that's an interesting quine, how does the unbalanced double quote work?
00:03:08  You can try to make up templates for the TCG using TeXnicard, perhaps. I also believe that a computer implementation of the rules should be written as FOSS, perhaps using literate programming so that it includes the general text too.
00:03:47  b_jonas it reads it once for start then wraps around the line and reads it again for the end
00:04:32  [[BF-PDA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83429&oldid=83008 * Bangyen * (-74) 
00:04:44  [[BFStack]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83430&oldid=83011 * Bangyen * (-53) 
00:05:08  [[EXCON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83431&oldid=83007 * Bangyen * (-15) /* Interpreter */
00:05:23  [[RAM0]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83432&oldid=83010 * Bangyen * (-53) 
00:05:24  fizzie: bash arbitrary delimiter: there's here-docs, but nothing like perl/ruby's single character delimiter. I would occasionally like a better delimiter for URLs in bash, because neither " nor ' works.
00:06:59  nakilon: oh! so that's why when I miss the @ builtin you get an infinite loop. that makes much more sense
00:07:12  ye )
00:08:53  well that makes more sense
00:10:02  I have found ' suitable to delimit URLs in bash
00:11:25  zzo38: that doesn't work well because URLs can contain ' so then you have to escape it
00:12:15  $'' doesn't work for the same reason; "" doesn't work because now you have to escape dollar signs
00:14:42  and yes, this is a small complaing, I do generally like bash
00:14:45  I had never needed to use a URL with '
00:16:38 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
00:18:45  hey I made it even shorter
00:18:48  \rasel <@,Yj5#?:,"
00:18:51  output: "<@,Yj5#?:,\"", exit code: 0
00:19:53  both ? branches reach the j, but one gets 5 and another carries own end-loop 0
00:21:50  it's now 1 char shorter than Befunge-98 I guess
00:28:39 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:29:09 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
00:29:21 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:44  `rasel <@,Yj5#?:,"
00:31:46  ​<@,Yj5#?:,"
00:32:00  valid in both versions
00:35:02  `rasel "tobadbmal olleh >",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
00:35:06  ​> hello lambdabot
00:38:29 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
00:41:45 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Client Quit).
00:42:22 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
00:42:40  [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83433&oldid=83422 * Nakilon * (+7) /* Quine */ 11 chars
01:37:03  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Aylias *  New user account
01:39:48  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83434&oldid=83411 * Aylias * (+206) /* Introductions */
01:45:53 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:47:24  Heh, I was fiddling in SASL support to my IRC thing (seems to be working now), and noticed I had originally generated a 10-year self-signed cert, which will expire next year. Wonder how I'm supposed to remember something like that.
01:48:17  put it into your calendar and hope that it survives the 2 software migrations in the meantime?
01:52:02  Hmm, it might just barely work.
02:10:25 -!- mnrmnaugh has joined.
02:16:15  Turns out bip doesn't do SASL. :/ (After adding it to the homegrown bot thing, was thinking of setting it up for this human-client connection too.)
02:17:09  irssi does. weechat does too, presumably
02:17:45  Yeah, but they're not bouncers.
02:18:06  I went through this phase of experimenting with clients, and it was convenient to not have that cause any trouble.
02:18:15  (I know ZNC does, but it's too mainstream.)
02:18:22  oh bouncers, right
02:18:56  well, being mainstream may correlate with growing sasl support
02:19:04 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:19:59  Yeah, I guess. bip does client-side certificates, which is *almost* but not exactly the same.
02:21:23  (Adding a client cert fingerprint to NickServ makes it auto-identify soon *after* connecting, but you still need to do a SASL EXTERNAL thing in the connection registration stage to make it happen before actually connecting.)
02:21:28  ...almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea...
03:09:10 -!- dyeplexer has joined.
03:16:17  did y'all get your channel seized on freenode.
03:16:20  because #lobsters did.
03:16:31  everyone did
03:16:42  they've seized every single channel that mentions libera.
03:17:11  all of them
03:17:17  and are doing.. what.
03:17:41  forcibly preventing the channel from leaving, by hiding the fact it moved
03:17:50  it's redirected to it's ## version, and  owned by a placeholder account
03:18:22  anybody wanna argue about FUD when moving networks now.
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03:22:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
03:22:28  /!\ Freenode has started to take over project channels that advertise ("spam") Libera Chat in the topic, e.g.: https://pastebin.com/UGgTwRnt
03:22:57  brctl: ignore int-e
03:22:57  brctl: ignoring
03:24:20 -!- illegal has quit (Quit: We're here. We're queer. Connection reset by peer).
03:24:54  bye freenode, fuck you andrew lee.
03:25:01  brctl: ignore imode
03:25:01  brctl: ignoring
03:26:41 -!- illegal has joined.
03:26:48 -!- illegal has changed nick to V.
03:27:58 -!- V has quit (Client Quit).
03:28:25  brctl: ignore cd
03:28:25  brctl: ignoring
03:29:09  that's pretty... uh, what did they think was gonna happen
03:30:39 -!- V has joined.
03:32:24  pikhq: Probably hope to snag users that haven't realized everyone's movied to libera
03:32:44  So uders that log on to IRC maybe once-twice a month or something
03:33:43 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero).
03:34:13  i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho
03:34:15  I still don't get the hostile takeover of Freenode, I'd assume taking care of the needs and wants of a bunch of smelly computer nerds (present company excluded) would be a much bigger pain in the ass than whatever monetary gains are to be had from owning the IRC chat which they use
03:34:23  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Amp *  New user account
03:34:40  it is objectively bizarre
03:35:06  it's a monetization scam. you buy and wall users in, you turn the network into an "embrace, extend, extinguish" scenario for standards, then you sell it.
03:36:02  Who'd buy it and why?
03:36:21  There is an objectively negative cost associated with owning and maintaining an IRC network
03:36:33  it won't be an IRC network. it'll be an irc.com network.
03:36:40  big difference.
03:36:56  Oh? Could you explain?
03:37:06  go to irc.com and see the plans andrew laid out for IRC.
03:37:13  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83435&oldid=83434 * Amp * (+155) /* Introductions */
03:38:01  irc.com is hilarious garbage
03:38:16  what_the_fuck_am_i_reading.jpg
03:38:18  I wonder what they do for channels that are in "violation" that are already ##
03:38:25  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83436&oldid=83435 * Amp * (+67) /* Introductions */
03:38:26  ###.
03:38:28  :P
03:38:35  >IRC is one of the last few remaining open messaging platforms that anybody can setup and manage their own communities with. No vendor lock in, no black box services.
03:38:42  They introduce this like it's a bad thing
03:38:45 -!- imode has changed nick to FuckAndrewLee.
03:39:15  [[User:Amp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83437 * Amp * (+2) Created page with "yo"
03:40:10  I think I see, so Lee's trying to make Freenode his so he can make it the testbed for his irc.com webshit and sell it to investors?
03:40:17  yuh.
03:40:53  I'd ask who'd invest in that, but then people invested in juicero so I won't.
03:41:38   Goodbye freenode:#esoteric, see you on the other side (where I've already taken up residence, obviously.)
03:42:14  very smart to take over a platform and immediately drive off the entire existing userbase
03:42:33  clearly much better than just starting your own irc network from scratch
03:42:35  :P
03:42:52  ikr
03:43:11  is this just a case of capitalists being unable to understand the internet? they can't imagine any way to build things that doesn't involve first displacing an existing group of people?
03:43:16  i'm sad i ran out of good trolling to do with fn-ceo, that was fun for maybe the first 30min
03:43:52  hopefully someone else on the server opens the tmux instance up and starts talking again :P
03:45:22  brctl: help ignore
03:45:22  brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
03:45:36  brctl: ignore
03:45:36  brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
03:45:50  brctl: ignore Sgeo
03:45:50  brctl: ignoring
03:46:16  The "redirects" aren't the IRC-level mode thingies that are automatic. Just a change of topic.
03:46:40  Incompetence? Or intent to... something?
03:47:08  Sgeo: from what I've seen they set +if ##channel  too
03:47:09  I don't understand why they would force a redirect instead of just forcibly changing the topic, unless they want the new channel to not have all the users
03:47:26  Oh, I guess that doesn't forward people already in channel?
03:47:55  I think it's because they do maintain the distinction between project channels and about channels
03:48:04  Yep. Just joined and parted a hijacked channel, and got forwarded
03:48:31  they just don't clear out current users
03:51:15  I... still don't get why they're doing it like this. This still forces a split between still connected idlers and people who rejoin
03:53:05  brctl: unignore Sgeo
03:53:05  brctl: unignoring
03:56:20  cd: you want good trolling? :p
03:56:43  Soni: I am super out of ideas and the chat moves at the speed of sound
03:56:54  cd: https://github.com/propuke/ctcp-s
03:57:12  (this may or may not be a good idea. also we hid the original repo.)
03:57:38  (... also this fork's owner is a bit of a stalker but eh w/e)
03:59:05  (oh yeah this is the old version with GZIP and C-like macros)
04:01:21  (honestly not proud of this one tbh)
04:04:29  (actually the "C-like" macros may be turing-complete?)
04:11:22 -!- arseniiv has joined.
04:14:52  FORWARD might be a good idea; the rest I don't like. (Also, GZIP is bad because it requires the client software to implement it. Ideally, no special client software should be needed for IRC; such things should be optional.)
04:16:40  brctl: ignore Sgeo
04:16:40  brctl: ignoring
04:16:41  -rasengan- [Global Notice] In the recent policy enforcement, some channels were erroneously included. We greatly apologize for the inconvenience. Please contact us in #freenode-services or contact-us@freenode.net. Thanks for your patience and choosing freenode!
04:17:47  like i believe that
04:20:01  It's christian.
04:20:07  Sin, then ask for forgiveness.
04:20:12  (scnr)
04:21:44  This is a bit of a weird association, really, but I like this joke: "When I was a kid, I used to pray for a bicycle. For months I prayed, every day. Then I realized that God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness."
04:30:03  hehehe
04:31:36  I wonder what would have happened to a channel of people sticking with Freenode who happened to be promoting the music group Libera in their topic
04:32:20  zzo38: that's part of the point in this case :p
04:32:44  hi pikhq
04:34:58  zzo38: if you want to be extra-grating tho, something like https://github.com/bittorrent/bittorrent.org/issues/110 may be of interest
04:35:07  :)
04:36:22  hi soni
04:45:08  zzo38: we guess you could implement all of this on an IRC client, but make it only available on irc.com networks?
04:45:59  anyway, we should go sleep, sorry. good night o/
04:46:25  Soni: That is a possibility, but I recommend not using them anyways.
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06:33:16  cd: that's a good one, they kickbanned everyone from the existing channels, that will get a lot of people notice that something happened and get them moving
06:33:56  " i feel like they'd notice the sudden total redirection of all the channels to ## under new management tho" => not really that, more like that suddenly there are much fewer people on
06:34:51  [[Esolang:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83438&oldid=83223 * B jonas * (-13) 
06:37:19  keegan: unclear, he might want to just destroy the network completely (without directly stating that) and driving people to competitor forums that he has interest in more secretly
06:53:44 -!- dcristofani has joined.
07:00:16  at least if he wanted to destroy freenode, he had the courtsey of doing it quickly rather than having communities wonder if they should stay or find a new place
07:07:35  [[SF Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83439&oldid=83409 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+226) Recategorization
07:14:10 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
07:28:16  Sgeo: "just forcibly changing the topic" => that would have no effect, because NOBODY READS TOPICS ON IRC. they just used the topic as a quick filter to tell which communities redirect users to other networks in more effective ways. grepping topics is easier to automate than looking at project websites to see which projects changed their links.
07:28:45  fizzie: also, if you feel like my encouragement to make a bridge pressured you, you are hereby absolved, I no longer think a bridge to freenode is helpful
07:31:30  fuck freenode
07:31:41  they're dead to me
07:31:43  i told them to eat my balls
07:31:51  long live libera
07:31:52  `coins
07:31:55  ​milecoin wotioncoin limpcoin fakcoin bfccoin smitisorbcoin safenfcoin nrfcoin axicoin aaallyidocoin dermdrcemecoin shakbcoin hyphillecoin sorthcoin codacoin ampucoin hpndersiopcoin nephalcoin percardcoin igncoin
07:50:01  heh, "Leenode" rather than Freenode , via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27287038  > We should stop implicitly legitimizing Andrew Lee's power grab by referring to his dominion as "Freenode"
07:52:28  hmm, I was just wondering what to rename the network tag of freenode in my irc config so I don't absent-mindedly connect and join it and think I'm correctly connected to IRC
07:52:37  will probably still go with something else rather than a cheap pun
08:00:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:00:27  `? freenode
08:00:29  The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The ChÀnnel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
08:00:33  `? libera
08:00:34  Libera is the land of the future. Probably.
08:00:56  The freest of nodes.
08:01:22  Maybe we can come up with some law
08:01:24  lore
08:01:28  now the leest of nodes?
08:01:29  involving a big migration
08:02:03  and the evil tortoise (of shells)
08:02:05  or something
08:04:33  (just realised I misunderstood which was the freest... Libera is free-er than freenode, so is freest...) My attempt at a joke needs to be rewritten accordingly
08:04:44  int-e: evil tortoise? come on, the lore is obvious. the freenode gods pulled off a miracle of setting up a new network in like two days, with several servers, and led us out of Egypt
08:06:35  Of free nodes, Freenode is leest, Libera is freest?
08:07:17  `? puns
08:07:18  Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
08:07:22  salpynx: not bad
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08:51:20  `` ruby -e "p 'Libera' > 'Freenode'"
08:51:24  true
08:51:38  `` ruby -e "p 'Freenode' > 'Libera'"
08:51:39  false
08:52:50  > "freenode" > "Libera Chat" -- official names
08:52:51   True
08:57:18  int-e: Man, I can't believe this thing was hiding in plain sight in the original van Oorschot & Wiener paper.
09:02:00  shachaf: well, now you know. (and I do as well, for the moment. maybe this time I won't forget where I saw it.)
09:02:45  I don't think I quite understood what you said about MeetITM, but maybe I should read pages 16-18 more closely and then I'll understand it?
09:03:40  shachaf: just the beginning of the second paragraph
09:03:46  in section 5.4
09:03:48  5.3
09:04:58  The idea that this algorithm also helps with MeetITM attacks, since they're of this form?
09:05:38  It just turns out that it's the same problem as you have, but they view it as an MeetITM attack.
09:06:59  I see. I thought you meant there was an application of MeetITM attacks to my problem.
09:07:14  But you meant it more in the other direction, or just that they're doing the same thing.
09:07:22  and my point was that this problem is exactly what you described, wheras in section 5.2 it has a specific form for f and g.
09:07:36  *whereas
09:07:49  The trick is the same, of course.
09:08:47  Right, that makes sense.
09:13:30  It's kind of surprising that e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet-in-the-middle_attack just claims you need 2^k space.
09:13:46  Presumably anyone implementing this kind of attack uses a fancy trick like this.
09:33:49  this "Community-curated" in github repo titles...
09:33:53  what does it even mean
09:34:30  they always have the repo owner who reviews and accepts the pull requests only if he feels so, the same as in any another github repo
09:39:28  Well, that was certainly a thing. Wondering if I should make that bridge a one-way affair, just freenode -> here, so that it would mainly serve the purpose of letting people here notice if someone they know comes in wondering about what's up. (Up until `freenodecom` comes in and forcibly redirects it to ##esoteric, of course, at which point I don't think I'd bother.)
09:39:47  what even more funny is that you could say "well the pull requests should probably pass the CI checks", but nope -- the https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main has the ./script/cibuild script but they don't have CI, lol -- this script threw errors that they fixed only 11 hours ago
09:41:44  not that it amazes me in any way because I already saw an amazing shit done by github staff
09:43:51  one of their guys took the whole course code of my gem and replaced the source code of another gem on github, not changing the name, nor giving any credits -- just copypoasted the whole code over, with mistakes, and made a pull request -- at first I thought it's someone drunk or indian but nope, he had the "Github staff" badge
09:44:01  *source
09:44:57  though still could be drunk
09:45:25  fizzie I think the bridge gives people on freenode know that libera exists
09:45:37  and that we are active here
09:45:49  *makes people
09:46:11  Yeah, it's just there's a number of people who I think prefer not to get their comments forwarded over there. But fair enough, I guess it still does that even if there's odd gaps in the conversation.
09:46:21  Like lambdabot just saying "True" out of the blue. ;)
09:47:11  lol
09:47:20  /!\ fungot: Please pretend like you've suddenly gained the capability of spontaeneous action? 
09:47:20  fizzie: disenchanter: ask not, as opposed to the nether world, the chalk pencil, and without a mother. she is usually heard or seen in profile, the demon lord. inhabited or not, have very detailed short-term plans for it had been very upset to find if hearts be wild and wise.
09:47:35  In retrospect, I think that wasn't the best ^style for that.
09:49:02  so on freenode it looks like a demon lord took a control over him
09:49:36  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83440&oldid=83400 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* Quirks */
09:49:52  oh here we go
09:50:11  [[While(true)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83441&oldid=83440 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* External resources */
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10:39:23  [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83442&oldid=83421 * DynCoder * (+139) 
10:40:46  [[User:Sertdfyguhi]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83443&oldid=81241 * Sertdfyguhi * (-27) update
11:09:57  is there any website that provides a ""community driven" " catalogue of irc channels?
11:11:11  I mean only those who already can IRC know about /list, and even they don't immediately know about alis, etc., it would be nice to have some guide over your possible places of interests if you are not in IRC yet
11:13:07  It's not a *curated* list, but there's always https://netsplit.de/channels/?net=libera.chat and such.
11:13:11  It's kind of flaky in what it displays, though.
11:19:35  hi Am Dm6 G F#add9 Fm7 C6 G what do you think?
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11:54:46  [[Esolang talk:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83444&oldid=83183 * Fizzie * (+1304) /* Freenode and the future */ Last call for objections.
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11:57:22  fizzie it doesn't provide a tree/tags cataloging
11:57:54  arseniiv you mean q3dm6?
11:58:43  don’t know what q3 is
11:59:02  shame on you
12:00:09  oh, a Quake map. Didn’t play Quake :)
12:00:32  I meant the chord D F A B
12:00:46  from an alis topic search on freenode, there are at least a few channels that still advertise in the topic that they moved to libera, but there are also some that advertise that they moved to oftc or hackint
12:05:41  Are they #channels or ##channels? Although I don't doubt there's exceptions.
12:06:02  arseniiv it's in this classic video starting at 4:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9RVktBNMA
12:10:23  nakilon: "community-curated" means that is the software is buggy or badly designed, the maintainer don't accept blame, because it was "the community" that maintained it wrong, according to them
12:23:22  fizzie: for libera, only ## and ## channels I think
12:23:49  well no\
12:23:53  I'm wrong
12:24:31  fizzie: there are #-channels too, like freenode/#archlinux-security, that say moved to libera in topic
12:25:41  I'm not attempting to tell how many large channels have such notices in topic, because it's hard to tell how large a channel is when it's moved away, and I don't have historic data
12:26:03  Maybe they changed to that after the big sweep? Or just were missed. Or got their channel back: #go-nuts on freenode was "recovered", and now says "see  for official support channels" in topic, which is one way to put it.
12:26:29  fizzie: yes, they probably changed the topic again after the big sweep. they probably have nothing to lose by changing it again.
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12:27:41  Incidentally, on freenode we have ##esoteric set as `+if #esoteric` owned by tswett (who's moved from IRC to Matrix, I think) -- I wonder what would've happened if we had had Libera in the topic.
12:27:53  Given the nature of the channel, I think the best-case scenario (as in, for maximum absurdity) would've been that we'd have have both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other.
12:28:11  But I guess more plausibly they would have reset the modes of ##esoteric to open it up.
12:29:06  "see  for official support channels" => yeah, that's harder to object against, freenode historically had extra channels where the official channel was on another network: ##rust before mozilla irc got shut down, and #gimp or ##gimp (can't recall which)
12:29:25  [[Goatoo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83445&oldid=83442 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) /* Language Overview */ Categories
12:29:47  plus of course such a topic can refer to non-irc forums (though it's less likely to say "channels") for the large number of projects that don't consider the freenode presence official
12:30:23  [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83446&oldid=83439 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) Move cats to bottom
12:30:35  "both #esoteric and ##esoteric as invite-only and both forwarding to each other" lol, that would be funny indeed
12:32:58  "Move cats to bottom" <- herding cats, I see.
12:33:15  Oh, cats as in categories; I was assuming examples of the cat program.
12:35:41  there should be a language about cats
12:37:16  oh I see https://esolangs.org/wiki/CAT
12:39:42  [[User:Nakilon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83447&oldid=81104 * Nakilon * (+28) added Libera
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12:42:43  brctl: help
12:42:43  brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
12:42:56  brctl: help filter
12:42:56  brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
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12:43:22  what's a brctl?
12:43:36  oh the bridge
12:43:39  bridge something
12:44:36  I named it after brctl(8), the Linux utility to control Ethernet bridges.
12:45:05  ("ctl" is presumably short for "control".)
12:53:49  or cuttle[fish]
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12:59:57  does fungot connect to IRC via some network funge-98 extension or is it another process that connects?
12:59:57  nakilon: they say that a large number, led a semi-independent life of mortals with a curved single-edged blade. its body around in such a way that it was a blade like a hell-broth boil and bubble." the bushmen say that when invoked, it is inescapable once earned. he is small, has dark skin and wears strange clothes.
13:00:22  ^source
13:00:22  https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
13:03:42  so it's http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK ?
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13:03:58  Certainly seems possible
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13:18:13  Yes, it does the sockets with SOCK.
13:18:24  Otherwise it'd be cheating. ;)
13:18:54  https://github.com/fis/fungot/#running lists the required fingerprints, for the record.
13:18:54  fizzie: dark room? your chance to develop your photographs!' ( brignall banks, by h. rider haggard)
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13:19:36  I do run a (bip) bouncer between it and the actual network for stability and TLS support, though.
13:20:08  Which also might mean if it's not responding but still online, the cfunge process has crashed but the bouncer hasn't. Not that it's really happened yet.
13:20:20  funnily enough, hackbot (hackeso) does use another process (socat) for the connection, making fungot the more advanced bot in that regard
13:20:20  cd: orion, sirius: orion was the daughter of jupiter and juno. ( capitalized:) a constellation of the king," he said desperately, " one rest")
13:20:45  Many years ago when I made Pietbot it cheated because Piet doesn't have network IO
13:20:50  I wonder how many esolangs do
13:20:50  esobot: "It listens for the MediaWiki UDP "recent changes" feed" -- interesting, so the bot listens to the local network for the message? I wish there something similar in web because otherwise you have to reread the whole, let's say, RSS/Atom feed and store somewhere what was the last id you've processed, and then the feeder has to follow the
13:20:50  order of items otherwise you have to read them all and sort, etc. etc.
13:21:49  "Otherwise it'd be cheating" -- yeah otherwise it would be no point in writing features in funge is you already have the IRC communicator written in something more trivial and probably extendable
13:22:17  Yeah, MediaWiki can post changes formatted as JSON/XML/"IRC" and post them either as raw UDP or via Redis Pub/Sub.
13:22:53  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds
13:23:25  (I think I just hooked the piet interpreter up to netcat)
13:23:46  ok so this is a silly and esoteric idea, but what if the guy who bought freenode is, besides being rich (which we know) is an eccentric (possibly amateur) social scientist who got intrigued by how even though the covid pandemic destroyed a lot of in person communities, it also made stronger communities quickly formed online and strengthened people's sense of community and caring about each other in 
13:23:52  general, and wanted to do another experiment to see how this reproduces?
13:24:17  That seems... unethical
13:24:40  "or via Redis Pub/Sub" -- unfortunately there is no such thing as public pub/sub that websites would provide for random users
13:24:50  as an alternative to RSS
13:25:05  socat made it possible to use TLS (...well, after updating to a more recent version supporting SNI...), I don't think netcat flavors at least generally support that.
13:25:31  unfortunately doesn’t change the fact they need a good smack. (Also isn’t that really unethical)
13:25:37  So that nobody can snoop in on HackEso's network password, impersonate it, and thus gain control of mission-critical infrastructure.
13:26:03  "Otherwise it'd be cheating." => um, yes, but there was an ICFP contest judge's prize winner that was written in Metafont and used an external command for the socket connections because apparently Metafont doesn't have a built-in way to do this, and we don't want to say that that one is cheating, so we may let it slide for a befunge program too
13:26:15  (I'm assuming there's mission-critical infrastructure accepting commands from HackEso when it's authenticated to NickServ, which may be a little bit of a stretch.)
13:26:35  b_jonas: I think it might be OK when the language has no network IO
13:26:54  Yeah, I think that's the distinction. It's not cheating for Piet either, because there's just no way.
13:27:25  Although arguably that whatever-that-thing-was would have been a more esoteric solution.
13:27:37  "strengthened people's sense of community" -- I'm still not sure it was about sense of community rather than hate to Korean nation or that he had a taste to chose the word "Imperial" to his company name
13:27:45  That thing that was supposed to provide advanced I/O to brainfuck and other similar single-stdin/out languages.
13:29:05  nakilon: I'm not saying that it's definitely true, but it's a theory that some people seriously mentioned, and so an experiment may make sense
13:29:07  I can't remember the name. Was Sgeo involved with it? Anyway, we talked about it. Not having much luck finding hits on the wiki either.
13:29:50  [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Oshaboy *  uploaded "[[File:Hello World Stegfuck.png]]"
13:29:53  as in for an independently rich amateur scientist who isn't bound by a university medical ethics community or peer-reviewed journals who will boycott them and make their whole carreer harder
13:31:25  people love to join the shitthrowing parties AFTER the real problems already took the place, and don't love to investigate what they were
13:33:05  the whole point of "investigation" and "finding the roots, the causes" seems to be not interesting
13:34:29  [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Oshaboy *  uploaded "[[File:Cat program stegfuck.png]]"
13:35:27  this mediawiki event doesn't have a link
13:35:51  [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Oshaboy *  uploaded "[[File:Lost kingdom StegFuck.png]]"
13:38:40  [[StegFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83451 * Oshaboy * (+1152) Initial
13:39:01  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83452&oldid=83451 * Oshaboy * (-7) 
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13:40:13  [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83453&oldid=83452 * Oshaboy * (+8) 
13:42:32  oh I already started installing netpbm to figure out his steganography but has already created a page
13:45:00  [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83454&oldid=83401 * Oshaboy * (+78) Added information about 1 of the instructions
13:48:01  [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83455&oldid=83453 * Oshaboy * (+2) Fixed dead links
13:48:38  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83456&oldid=83455 * Oshaboy * (+0) 
13:48:46  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83457&oldid=83456 * Oshaboy * (-4) 
14:07:09  wtf
14:07:37  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83458&oldid=83457 * Oshaboy * (+406) added extra information
14:08:04  #homebrew automatically kicks you while ##homebrew topic is Discussion on the domestic production of potable liquids
14:08:07  Libera is weird
14:08:10  â˜ș
14:10:08  Same founder on both, and I guess that's a valid interpretation of the word too...
14:10:46  netsplit.de's channel topic view suggests ##homebrew on freenode is also on that topic, and #machomebrew is the package manager.
14:11:10  What if I want to run my own software on a Nintendo DS
14:11:15  oh indeed
14:12:19  Taneb IIRC it's illegal
14:12:38  I think it just voids the warranty and Nintendo doesn't like it
14:13:15  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83459&oldid=83458 * Oshaboy * (+287) More details
14:13:29  but I wonder if it's legal to squat the #homebrew just to kick people with macs
14:14:47  [[StegFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83460&oldid=83459 * Oshaboy * (+9) link
14:15:01  [[User:Oshaboy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83461 * Oshaboy * (+4) Created page with "Heyo"
14:15:02  it's like... they could not decide who should own #homebrew and made it like this
14:15:55  For the *concept* of homebrew on consoles, I think there's at least some more specific channels. But the package manager is just called "Homebrew". I doubt they have any registered trademarks or anything? 
14:16:11  nakilon: was it actually called "#homebrew" previously on freenode?
14:16:30  b_jonas have no idea
14:16:32  I know there were apple homebrew guys on freenode, but I don't know if they used that particular channel name
14:16:34  AFAICT it's been called #machomebrew on freenode.
14:16:41  I keep reading that as macho me brew
14:16:46  I think they used multiple channels (no surprised there)
14:16:50  it's #machomebrew now as fizzie said
14:17:01  Weightlifters drinking tea
14:17:22  well that makes sense then
14:17:45  presumably the folks on ##homebrew are used to lost people enough that they just direct them to the right place
14:17:49  but the software isn't and probably never was called machomebrew
14:17:57  like we used to with the other kind of esoterica
14:17:59  oh, that reminds me
14:18:02  what do we do with the
14:18:03  `welcome
14:18:07  Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:18:07  message now?
14:18:09  The software's official twitter account is @MacHomebrew as well.
14:18:30  hmmm
14:18:43  b_jonas: I vote just removing the parenthetical
14:18:58  We are forwarding #esoteric into here, though.
14:19:00  Taneb: ok, but it's tricky because there are copies in like ten languages
14:19:06  fizzie: oh yes, you have a point
14:19:16  fizzie: hmm, yeah, in that case it probably ought to stay
14:19:23  It's not impossible that someone will join in search "for the other kind of esoterica", though probably quite unlikely.
14:19:47  I guess we'll seen in half a year
14:20:10  ok maybe it was machomebrew initially, I missed that time probably
14:20:29  because their twitter is older than @homebrew one
14:21:01  Now I can't stop reading it as macho-me-brew.
14:21:05  `thanks Taneb
14:21:06  Thanks, Taneb. Thaneb.
14:22:41  `thanks HackEso
14:22:43  Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
14:23:04  `thanks fizzie
14:23:04  Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie.
14:23:12  `thanks brrrrr
14:23:13  Thanks, brrrrr. Trrrrr.
14:24:04  :)
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14:26:05  rust depends on python wtf
14:26:40  [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83462&oldid=83460 * Oshaboy * (+8) /* Overview */
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14:28:09  trying to figure out what to uninstall because homebrew updates EVERYTHING once in a while and it took half an hour; and I have no idea why two commands from SO to "draw a dependency tree" are so different but python is like covid here... https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L
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14:32:53  nakilon: doesn't everything depend on python
14:32:58  rustc uses it for it's build
14:33:06  a pre-built rustc doesn't need it
14:34:01  ruby doesn't use it
14:34:01  also... why isntall rustc through homebrew.
14:34:05  *install
14:34:11  rustup exists
14:34:28  and? what does ruby have to do with rustc
14:34:42  these are all needed to build ruby https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286
14:35:09  why install through different package managers if there is one?
14:35:27  everything installs with brew
14:35:48  because rustup is specifically for rust, and manages the toolchain. among other things it's basically the only way to install nightly versions and cross compiler versions of rustc
14:36:31  also why build from source? python is only needed if you build it from source :P
14:36:38  why do you think I need "to manage rust toolchain"?
14:36:58 * cd confused themselves
14:37:15  oh if you're not using rust for anything you don't, that's my bad.
14:37:36  if you're writing rust rustup is recommended, otherwise you can ignore it unless your package manager ships a hilariously old rustc
14:37:49  "brew install rust" somehow was enough to then "rust install ..." or whatever it was to install some rust program that btw I'll probably deinstall now since I don't remember it even
14:38:31  ubuntu is shipping a rustc from october last year... ;I
14:38:42  I guess I didn't build rust from source and this "tree draw" command just fakes it
14:39:00  yea, i checked, rust prebuilt has no python dept
14:39:15  basically homebrew downloads everything precompiled for my current mac os version
14:39:44  https://dpaste.org/416M/slim#L2281,2282,2283,2284,2285,2286,6384,6385,6386,6387,6388
14:39:55  I guess this means right side is more correct
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14:43:04  I see, "This is similar to Ruby's rbenv, Python's pyenv, or Node's nvm." -- rustup docs
14:43:38  (nvm is actually was a clone of rvm, not rbenv but whatever)
14:44:12  yea, it's an env manager
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15:37:50  I hoped the visualization would make the tree more obvious, heh https://imgur.com/a/yclpTkR
15:39:00  Judging by what that looks like, that must be neato/fdp. Do it with dot instead: it'll be a lot more obvious, but a gigantic and full of blank space.
15:39:15  btw java has made "jenv" too now
15:39:29  fizzie: there's two images there and the first one looks dotty
15:39:32  fizzie dot is upper one
15:40:06  nakilon: can you get it to drop edges implied by transitivity
15:40:27  Sorry, I think the rectangle for it was shaped too much like an ad banner and I was blind to it. ;)
15:41:09  would be cool if there was a built-in graphviz filter that would concat "nodes that have the same set of ins and outs" with "\n" into a single node
15:41:44  Taneb I didn't process the graph myself, it's https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph 
15:43:26  Ah
15:43:45  I seem to remember a force-directed graph vizualizer you could manually "shake" to untangle it, and then freeze the result, but I don't remember where that was. That's the kind of human/machine hybrid algorithms we need more of. (To convince the machines to keep us around.)
15:44:11  Maybe one day they can 3D print that out of springs and you can try to physically sort it out.
15:45:06  did I tell about the "reconstruct cats" contest?
15:46:15  there was such contest on codeforces where there were thousands of shredded cat pics and you had to restore them; so IIRC lots of guys in top were making hybrids that you could "shake" a cat
15:46:42  unfortunately I can't code GUI
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15:47:22  so my cats mostly looked like this https://codeforces.com/predownloaded/6f/ed/6feddc5ed6240a9e1e61b4b089c00e796bda163d.png
15:47:50  but it would be pretty much real to process all the cats because the contest lasted a month
15:48:17  nakilon: how do you even scan shredded photos? that sounds very hard
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15:49:02  b_jonas they were accurately sliced in NxN pixels depending on the dataset
15:49:43  ah, so digitally shredded to nice square blocks
15:50:01  Speaking of scanning, my former university had scanned my Master's thesis and sent me a link to verify it looks like what I wrote (+ a checkbox for e-publishing permissions).
15:50:25  All the pages were there, but there was a pretty noticeable broad brown smear exactly vertically across each page.
15:50:29  fizzie: nice, when is that Master's thesis from? didn't you already make it full digital?
15:50:30  b_jonas yeah
15:50:33  I think they need to clean their scanning machine.
15:50:55  but what demotivated me and I stopped solving prematurely -- is that the chunks had resize kernel artifacts
15:51:12  the squares didn't connect ideally
15:51:20  there were bright and dark lines along the edges
15:51:38  I think when I submitted my Master's thesis, they asked for a digital copy, and I published a digital copy in any case. I'm not sure if that was like mandatory, or if people were still allowed to make it partly non-digitally though.
15:52:13  so it was their fault actually -- they could resize and then cut but they cut and then resized
15:52:17  b_jonas: *I* made it digitally (of course), but even though it wasn't that long time ago (2009), it still predated their process revamp of accepting digital submissions, so the official approved version is the printed and bound book.
15:52:38  I think post-2015 or so the official copy of record will have been the digital version.
15:52:48  fizzie: I mean in my case the main copies were still printed and bound, but they asked a digital copy in addition
15:52:58 -!- zgrep has joined.
15:53:16  which makes sense, it's a pretty free and useful thing to do to ask for a digital copy
15:53:41  I don't have a thesis
15:53:42  Yeah, the FAQ of the scanning project said something about how they can't accept a better-quality digital version because for reasonsℱ the thing available in their database must be exactly what was inspected for approval.
15:53:48  I didn't finish the university
15:54:04  was expelled for inability to run damn 3km in time
15:55:09  well yes, admittedly I also don't have the original version on public internet either, I have the version with the exactly one typo that I found a few months later fixed
15:56:03  My thesis was awful and I kind of wish I had the opportunity to try again
15:56:28  I do not have a copy to hand
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15:59:11  well sure, my thesis is bad too
15:59:18  most people's master's thesis is
15:59:45  Mine especially so, I was not having a good time mental health wise and sought help way too late
16:00:05  So handed in 12 pages of rubbish and somehow passed
16:08:23  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Alee *  New user account
16:10:23  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83463&oldid=83436 * Alee * (+88) /* Introductions */
16:10:49  [[User:Alee]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83464 * Alee * (+13) write intro
16:13:53  AIUI I could put any version I like on the public web if I want (not that I think anyone would find it very interesting), this was specifically the university wanting to make their library's publication archive ("full text materials produced in the university, such as theses, journal articles, conference publications and research") include this old stuff too, I think covering all theses from 1960-2015 or 
16:13:59  so.
16:14:06 -!- imode has joined.
16:14:10  The FAQ also says something about it freeing up valuable archival space, which might be the real motivation here.
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16:33:42   So i guess everyone is on libera
16:36:57   they forced me!
16:49:44  fizzie: yeah. old thesis are one of the hardest to find references to track down in libraries, though that's usually about PhD thesis, and they want to continue that tradition
16:55:11   If your #channel wasn't `+spimf ##channel`d by freenodecom, it doesn't count as forcing. ;)
16:55:30   I really would like to know what their tooling would have done given that ##esoteric is already +f #esoteric here, but I guess there's bound to have been a lot of those channels, so it was probably accounted for.
16:59:54  I wouldn't be so sure
17:09:23  we did opt out of the bridge yeah?
17:11:00  brctl: ignored
17:11:00  brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/imode libera/int-e libera/shachaf
17:11:19  okay ^^
17:12:29  of course if you mention fungot people on the other side may see that you're here
17:12:29  int-e: they say that a hacker named david once slew a giant. he was such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, a founding member of the yellowish linen whereof those of the triumph of morgoth elves and men were allies and held aloft the sacred icon. the denticles on its skin muted the whoosh of its body around in such a shabby monk to dinner? he invites the very devil, an army general invited the buddhist monk, mo
17:12:44  (and some other bots)
17:12:57  You can also have it ignore all mentions of your name, which is not going to be at all confusing.
17:13:08  Though I'm not sure how long we'll be keeping the bridge for.
17:13:25  why bother keeping it.
17:16:21  I think the main argument for is, it's a way to let any returning old-time regulars (who might have missed all the excitement) to know about this place. We do get some every now and then. Though it's discoverable via other means (wiki, logs page) too.
17:17:59  excitement
17:19:17  \rasel "!evila m'I"..........@/!\
17:19:25  output: "73 39 109 32 97 108 105 118 101 33 ", exit code: 0
17:19:30  damn
17:20:36  The word EVILAPEEK_OS appears in that noisy bot's source code (in the error message if setting SO_KEEPALIVE fails).
17:23:42  enough amount of funge code might have all the magic words you need to spawn something evil
17:30:02  would it be possible to have the bridge ignore list not mass-highlight every time it's requested? ^^'
17:30:24  just print which networks you're hidden from, etc
17:30:59  ... oh yeah that is an issue
17:31:27  privmsg it
17:31:32  or notice
17:31:39  doesn't help that your nick can't be split with hidden codepoints tho
17:33:51  I need the ignore list to be printable in order to copy it back to the config file because persistence is hard. ;) I can make the bridge commands respond by privmsg, I made them public mostly so that people can learn how it works by osmosis. Also, if we don't keep the bridge up it'll also stop being a problem.
17:35:44  yeah we're hoping it gets shut down in the next 3 weeks...
17:38:17  [[SF Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83465&oldid=83446 * JaydenIrwin * (+42) updated toggle description
17:41:14  [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83466&oldid=83465 * JaydenIrwin * (+92) sf symbols link
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17:54:36  Even on news.software.readers they write about abandoning Freenode (for the IRC about slrn), too.
17:56:46  I think that the bridge could be discarded soon, and the logs then being fully on this IRC only. I don't know how soon; that is up to whoever set it up
17:58:37  imgur refused to eat these images now
17:58:40  https://imgchest.com/p/pagyvmeky89
17:59:40  so joining them in groups gave no much profit
18:00:54  hm, actually those huge groups in the corner don't look right
18:00:58  bug
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18:14:41  nakilon: I expect the proposed "remove edges implied by transitivity" (while not exactly trivial to express) trick could help declutter the dot version more, since it's particularly those edges that are a problem. Though it's not exactly representing the same thing at that point, because there's a difference in directly depending on something vs. transitively depending on something.
18:15:22  fizzie I'm afraid I don't really understand the "remove edges implied by transitivity"
18:15:54  I didn't have master thesis ..D
18:15:58  nakilon: Well, for example, your graph has the edges vips -> libexif, libeexif -> gettext but also vips -> gettext.
18:16:14  That last edge could be removed, because vips -> gettext is implied by the first two.
18:16:22  ah, I see
18:16:57  It may or may not really help enough to be worth the trouble, and again it'd give a bit of a skewed picture.
18:17:01  I'll do that after I finish this one
18:17:46  (Because removing the edge makes the output imply if you make vips no longer depend on libexif, it doesn't need a gettext dependency either, which isn't true.)
18:23:30  IME, in large build dependency graphs an interesting way to get still-understandable output is to focus on the question "why exactly does building X depend on Y" (where you pick a particular pair X, Y of interest), and then find all the edges and nodes that are in any path between those two, and keep only those. It gives you a visual indication of whether it's just one weird dependency in the wrong place 
18:23:36  that's pulling the rest in, or whether it's something more systematic.
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18:29:46  seems like datastructure {node->[node, node, ...], node->[ .. ], ...} sucks
18:30:10  is that a freenode pun
18:30:15  gotta convert it do [[node1, node2], [node1, node3], ... ]
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19:08:28  [[User:CatCatDeluxe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83467&oldid=80754 * CatCatDeluxe * (-4) 
19:08:40  [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83468&oldid=83467 * CatCatDeluxe * (+1) 
19:09:07  looks like #help here now is a place for politics and shit
19:09:56  I'm not saying they ircops don't help when someone asks; I mean the channel looks opened for flame currently
19:10:38  there's a #help?
19:10:41  The *help* channel is supposed to be #libera, that's what the topic of #help says.
19:10:57  Though #libera is, unsurprisingly, full of the same sort of discussions.
19:11:15  (I'm just there to lurk to get some idea about the community registration queue.)
19:11:31  It is a hot topic. ##freenode is taking the worst of it anyway.
19:15:52  could anyone advice something on representing all generalized circles (so, lines and circles) uniformly? Let’s say I have a thing which applies inversions to them and it shouldn’t try to distinguish lines from circles (and use different algorithms and representations: we’re dealing with floating point, that’d be a wrong decision!)
19:17:46  what?
19:19:24  I heard something about conformal embedding or like that but I don’t know where to read something clear about that. Like projective or affine stuff goes one dimension higher, this one should (if I’m not mistaken) go up two. And there’s something with null cone and projecting parabolas from it to lines and I’m afraid of that all and don’t want to rediscover it at all
19:20:23  int-e: do you represent some line and circle segments in your Möbius visualizations BTW?
19:21:01  my context is the same: I think about applying Möbius transformations to generalized circles in a safe and rational manner
19:21:50  would we go up a dimension, I’d need to make something about generalized spheres too
19:22:06  thankfully I’m not that greedy yet!
19:22:34  oh right I’ll go frighten ##math
19:22:38  arseniiv: no, there's just coordinates
19:22:40  arseniiv: alright, I'll bite. generalized circles?
19:22:51  isn't that just a single value in all dimensions, distance?
19:23:00  i.e radius.
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19:24:41  rasengone: even in the circle case, we need to specify not just radius, but also its center. A line needs two points. But these ways aren’t unified at all
19:25:07  rasen-GAN is a funny name
19:25:20  arseniiv: that's interesting.
19:25:30  are lines not special cases of circles?
19:25:41  where the cut point is specified.
19:26:48  in geometries which admit inversion (like this Möbius group) they are all the same, of course, but that doesn’t help by itself, it just reinforces the desire to represent them unified
19:28:23  well that's the thing, you can specify them by two points, still.
19:28:36  or three, rather.
19:28:50  but that won’t be unique
19:28:57  lemme think about this.
19:28:58  though that might be a good start
19:29:02  I feel there’s no way around that conformal cone stuff but I don’t want to google it potentially for hours
19:29:26  b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that
19:35:24  now grouping looks correct https://i.postimg.cc/LmccZFTV/image.png and https://i.postimg.cc/6KcBFTzJ/image.png
19:35:39  but dot render became larger
19:41:40  arseniiv: what if you used a space-filling loop.
19:41:53  and defined lines as normalized segments of that loop.
19:42:05  dunno, just spitballing.
19:49:04  rasengone: hm
19:49:55  everything is either a line or a circle.
19:52:26  BTW I suddenly think I realized the basic principle there! I read something like that in physics books, the conformal geometry of the sky sphere or something. So it I get that as they intended, we take the null cone that’s alright. But then we treat null lines in it as points, like we did with projective geometry, but in this case just those lines and no other ones. They are the points of the sky sphere, it transforms conformally under Lorentz transf
19:52:26  ormations (which fix the null cone)
19:52:56  and now we stereographically project that sky sphere onto a plane
19:52:56  bam it’s the plane which we want to describe
19:54:05  though I don’t yet have stereographic transform sufficiently internalized. It’s hard to me to work with it, to write anything at all in linear algebra terms
19:54:19  I also opened that projective book, maybe it contains some clues too!
19:55:31  the idea “sky sphere → stereographic projection” seems palatable though. And I’m almost sure that is what I seek; circles on the sphere map to generalized circles on the plane
19:56:27  I think I came up with 3 algorithms for the "transitive reduction" but all they fuck up the rhombuses
19:56:36  and they can grow and shrink and so any single gen. circle can map to any other gen. circle, which should be possible, a sanity check
19:56:49  nakilon: do you do something with graphs?
19:56:58  sorry didn’t logread
19:57:36  arseniiv guys proposed to apply transitive reduction to https://i.imgur.com/MV6S0BH.png
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20:00:41  nakilon: ah, reasonable! To get something like whatsitcalled
 someone’s diagram. Hasse, I think. That name wouldn’t help, though, that’s just for completeness. Have you considered an algorithm which tries to assign levels to nodes and then layout them based on those levels?
20:01:40  it seems that may work poorly though, conflating ways to layout almost independent nodes
20:04:50  I think I can breadth-first traverse down from each node discarding all edges that were walked on previous layers during this starting node iteration
20:06:03  *discarding edges to the nodes that were reached on previous layers
20:06:13  [[Talk:Unsquare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83469&oldid=83417 * Bangyen * (+102) /* Examples */
20:07:20  [[SF Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83470&oldid=83466 * JaydenIrwin * (+201) link and overflow info
20:07:56  arseniiv was it undersdtandable? ..D
20:12:12  nakilon: yep, I was away for a bit
20:12:36  seems like a good idea which I would try too
20:20:35  I prefer to not have too many dependencies in computer programs that I write, and sometimes things that are small enough can be included with the program. Sometimes there are some indirect dependencies and sometimes they can be changed to avoid some of them
20:21:42  I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own
20:21:51  it seems too likely that something could go wrong in the supply chain somewhere
20:22:11  along similar lines, I think libraries should try to minimize the number of dependencies they have (this is probably an argument for programming languages to have large standard libraries)
20:26:29  It's maybe also an argument for programming language ecosystems to have (at least de-facto) standard dependency management solutions, so that people can converge on a set of popular dependencies. (But it's also a *counterargument* for that, because it makes it too easy to have dependencies.)
20:27:34  I like Bazel in the sense that it's really pretty annoying to have external dependencies, especially "large" ones (that themselves depend on other things), so you naturally avoid it. But people are trying to "fix" that property.
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20:30:56  Yes, I try to avoid too many indirect dependencies too
20:31:35  with Rust/Cargo, it can be a particular problem because many of the de-facto agreed upon dependencies are unstable
20:31:49  and some even have transitive dependencies with big warnings saying things like "not for production use"
20:32:06  " b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that
20:33:22  " b_jonas adviced a neat projective book but it’s just about that" => do you mean JĂŒrgen ichter-Gerbert, "Perspectives on Projective Geometry", (2011) Springer? that's probably the most relevant, but I may have recommended some of my other geometry books too
20:33:24  Here's the full transitive dependency tree of the esolangs bot and the logs web server, on the Bazel cc_* target level: https://zem.fi/tmp/esodeps.png
20:33:30  incidentally, apparently higher-kinded trait bounds are now stable in Rust?
20:33:46  err, higher-ranked
20:33:46  Sometimes there may be the hope to fix it in future. TeXnicard currently depends on Ghostscript, although I would hope that in future a different FOSS implementation of level 3 PostScript could be substituted, and that the program could then still work. (It does'nt even use many of the features of Ghostscript, so a simpler implementation, perhaps called "PSlite", could be done maybe)
20:34:11  I was having trouble getting a trait of mine to work, so in frustration I tried "for<'a> AddAssign<&'a Self>" as a trait bound because it's what I really wanted
20:34:18  hoping to get more information from the error message
20:34:21  and surprisingly, it just worked
20:35:50  Which de-facto agreed upon dependencies" are unstable?
20:36:08  there's one a couple of levels out from html5ever, I think
20:36:14  in terms of the "do not use in production"
20:36:22  in terms of unstable, nearly all of them
20:36:26  num-traits is widely used and has a 0. version number, for example
20:37:02  b_jonas: yeah I meant "Perspectives on Projective Geometry"
20:37:06  in fact, it's a rarity to see a version number start with a positive integer
20:37:06  arseniiv: also look at Tamfang's code that he used to generate all the hyperbolic tiling images https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tamfang/programs and possibly some of David Madore's code eg. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2014-12-14.2256.html 
20:37:58  SQLite doesn't have its own dependencies, so I am glad for that and do use it in many programs; it is common, I think.
20:38:41  b_jonas: thanks!
20:38:53  as well as TAOCP 4A which explains a way to represent a specific tiling of the hyperbolic plane, useful combined with normal hyperbolic coordinate geometry to represent large regions of the hyperbolic plane without numeric instability
20:39:07  one thing I would like to see is a commonly agreed upon library which does, in effect, the OS-specific parts of libc
20:39:31  hopefully I have that volume of TAOCP somewhere

20:39:37  but not things like strchr that can be implemented in a platform-neutral way
20:39:53  right now, almost everything depends on libc and it can cause trouble
20:40:07  where the JĂŒrgen Richter-Gerbert explains the coordinate geometry. alas I don't understand most of these topics in detail, and it doesn't seem to be as easy computationally as the Euclidean plane.
20:40:09  a few years ago I was helping my boss debug a Haskell programming, the problem was caused by libc's stdio buffering
20:40:20  and my boss was having trouble understanding why the Haskell program was using a C library at all
20:40:27  (how to organize notes on such diverse topics? I will definitely forget all that but at least I can bookmark the code in the browser)
20:40:39  oh, and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-12-17.2175.trigonometrie-triangle.html might help
20:40:44  (I explained that going via C for the operating sustem interface was the easiest way to make your language run on multiple operating system)
20:41:31  b_jonas: ah, the hyperbolic cosine law
20:41:53  also my grammar has gotten a lot worse over the last couple of years, for some reason
20:41:54  hm I need to invent a way to write all tree of them as one
20:42:30  " I try to avoid dependencies that have too many dependencies of their own" => yeah, the CPAN/node.js dependency hell. usually those kinds of modules that pull in a huge dependency tree of things that seem completely unrelated to what the modules are supposed to be doing turn out to be low quality.
20:43:15  ah yes, there's stuff like that in Cargo too
20:43:38  Taneb fizzie I guess that's it https://imgchest.com/p/pdl7px9j4ox
20:45:01  [[User:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83471&oldid=73905 * Ais523 * (+106) update on the IRC situation
20:45:03  definitely nicer
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20:48:19  does dot have any parameter to "think harder"  how to arrange things?
20:49:02 -!- moon has changed nick to moony.
20:51:05  nakilon: I think dot's algorithm is actually deterministic, it just does a tsort and then puts arrows accordingly
20:51:31  there is neato if you want a more complicated algorithm for arranging things
20:52:46  (same input format as dot, same developers, but a very different placement algorithm)
20:54:31  oh, this reminds me: I'm working on an esolang which will primarily handle integers, but I want it to be able to work with complex rationals too
20:54:47  and I'm wondering how to implement the modulus/floor-divide operations on complex numbers (which I want to include because they're useful on integers)
20:55:27  after researching it, it looks like "symmetric modulus" (the counterpart to rounded division) is a meaningful operation on complex numbers, but then the modulus operation will work differently on real numbers and on complex numbers, which is weird
20:56:09  does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division (and the corresponding remainder operation) to the complex numbers?
20:57:22  I've just implemented RASEL in Ruby that already has Rational ..D also it has Complex IIRC but I didn't use it
20:57:56  at least floor-division on real rationals is easy enough to implement
20:58:15  (you divide the rationals, then floor to the next integer below if the result isn't an integer, this gives a sensible definition for the modulus)
20:59:25  I guess you can implement modulus for complex numbers by requiring that the resulting modulus is within 90° anticlockwise of the divisor on the complex plane
21:00:11  although, generalising that to integers, you get floor-division when the denominator is positive but ceil-division when the denominator is negative, which I guess might be a useful operation?
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21:04:38  [[Unsquare]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83472&oldid=83419 * Bangyen * (+84) /* Implementations */
21:13:33  There are some nonstandard C functions that can be useful, such as fopencookie, which is a GNU extension. I found that it seems musl-libc also includes fopencookie, but apparently it does not provide a portable way to do arithmetic on file offsets; I fail to see how you are supposed to implement a seekable stream in that case. (Fortunately many of the cases where fopencookie is used are used for non-seekable streams so doesn't have this
21:14:22  I have been trying to work out what a good portable system-neutral API for file-like things would look like
21:14:52  I think it makes sense to divide files into seekable files and streams, but I don't know if you would want them to be separate APIs entirely, or if you want to merge them to cover the case of seekable streams
21:15:19  there are some weird cases, like growing files, where you want to be able to read what you have so far in a seekable way, then monitor the end for new content, in a streaming sort of way
21:15:26  (but of course there might be edits earlier in the file too)
21:15:45  really the problem is that we have a few different things we might want to use files for, but we're trying to force them all into the same abstraction
21:16:30  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83473&oldid=83425 * Aylias * (+19) /* M */
21:16:41  I think that the existing system is OK, except that such things as fopencookie are nonstandard and don't have a standardized way.
21:17:24  ais523: how about picking a “floor quotient” q ∈ Z[i], picking it so that Re q ≀ Re (z1 / z2) < Re q + 1, and making that order linear by deciding something about picking Im q. Then on R it will give the usual floor division and so the corresponding mod too
21:17:24  I think it's been generally agreed on that openat and friends are a better interface than their non-at counterparts
21:17:54  It can be used for example, I have the functions that compute hashes:  int fosimp_hash_stream(int alg,FILE*echo,Fosimp_Hash*hash,FILE**fp); int fosimp_hash(int alg,const unsigned char*data,size_t len,Fosimp_Hash*hash);  (the second one is a convenience wrapper)
21:19:03  [[MultiStacker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83474 * Aylias * (+80) Created page with "'''MultiStacker''' is an [[Esoteric programming language]] created by [[Aylias]]"
21:19:21  This includes an optional echo stream, in order that you want to write to another stream at the same time while the hash is being accumulated. (You can even chain them; in the case of fossil decks, this will be the case, since you will write the cards to a MD5 stream which echoes to a SHA-1 stream which then echoes to the output stream, after closing the MD5 stream write its hash to the SHA-1 stream.)
21:19:32  arseniiv: I was thinking along those sorts of lines, maybe even something as simple as "floor the real part and round the imaginary part"
21:19:52  yeah seems not so unnatural!
21:20:05  ais523: There is the C stream objects and the POSIX file descriptors interface; they are different things and can be good for different purposes; sometimes you do want to use both and fortunately you can do so, so, that isn't a problem.
21:20:12  [[User:Aylias]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83475 * Aylias * (+89) Created page with "I am a high-schooler who loves to code! I have created these esolangs: * [[MultiStacker]]"
21:20:16  and almost preserves conjugation in this case, ah
21:20:21  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83476&oldid=83474 * Aylias * (+5) 
21:20:48  I guess if you break ties to even, it actually does preserve conjugation
21:21:03  or if you’d want to use stochastic rounding for numbers from Z + 1/2

21:21:06  "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh
21:21:17  I think some esolang deserves to have some stochastic rounding
21:21:31  generally speaking I prefer my esolangs to be deterministic unless there's some reason not to
21:21:58  The source code of TeXnicard defines a "fopenat" function which combines fopen with openat, since that is useful in this case (for accessing files that belong to a package).
21:22:21   "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus / round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh => is it related to euclidean division Knuth advocate(d|s)?
21:22:30  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83477&oldid=83476 * Aylias * (+171) 
21:22:35  I think having fopen as the main API, rather than as a wrapper for open+fdopen, was a mistake
21:23:01  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83478&oldid=83477 * Aylias * (+4) 
21:23:16  arseniiv: it's mostly just due to preventing an infinite regress; flooring an integer changes it by at most 1, but flooring the real part and rounding the imaginary part can change it by up to sqrt(3)
21:23:26  static FILE*fopenat(int dirfd,const char*filename,const char*mode) { int flag,fd; FILE*fp; if(*mode=='r') flag=O_RDONLY; if(*mode=='w') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC; if(*mode=='a') flag=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_APPEND; if(strchr(mode,'+')) flag&=~(O_RDONLY|O_WRONLY),flag|=O_RDWR; fd=openat(dirfd,filename,flag); if(fd==-1) return 0; fp=fdopen(fd,mode); if(!fp) close(fd); return fp; }
21:23:43  and this breaks the invariant that the remainder of a division is smaller than the divisor, which the euclidean algorithm needs to be able to terminate
21:24:11  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83479&oldid=83478 * Aylias * (+96) 
21:24:16  whereas if you round both parts, the symmetric modulus will come out smaller than the divisor so the euclidean algorithm works again
21:24:25  ais523: Maybe it was a mistake. But, maybe having fopen separate is helpful in order to allow non-POSIX programs to work?
21:24:28  (smaller in this case meaning smaller magnitude)
21:25:01  zzo38: I think every major OS, and most of the minor OSes, have some sort of file descriptor concept that's separate from the concept of a buffered stream
21:25:27  in WebAssembly, file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integeres, but they still exist
21:28:16  That seems like an improvement.
21:28:46  yes
21:29:19  it does break the API for select(2), but that may be a good thing, because it would have helped avoid creating an API that doesn't scale well
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21:31:47  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83480&oldid=83479 * Aylias * (+506) 
21:35:36 -!- rasengone has changed nick to imode.
21:40:21  rounding discussion reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding I remember when it changed stores had look up  tables to explain. "If the number ends in x, round to y"
21:41:19  ... possibly not that relevant to complex numbers though
21:42:02  salpynx: I'm the sort of person who sometimes pays prices like ÂŁ1.99 using exact change
21:42:41  ais523: that's so satisfying
21:43:02  it also helps to rebalance the coin mix in both my wallet and their register
21:43:08  rarely happens though
21:43:55  I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do
21:45:22  you know how I complained that there's so hard to find detailed information about the IBM Selectric typewriters on the internet that the whole thing seems to be a hoax invented about a nonexistent typewriter, possibly as Cold War propaganda about the US technological superiority? well I just found a nice high quality video that both shows a working Selectric II and talks about how it works 
21:45:28  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJITkKaO0qA
21:47:02  What I remember from the dropping of 1 and 2 c coins was that prices like $1.99 still existed, so you couldn't pay exact, unless you paid electronically. I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash because guidelines were to round down (to nearest 5)
21:47:41  " does anyone know of a sensible generalisation of floor-division to the complex numbers?" => J implements a weird one, but I'm not sure that it's sensible, it might be there because if you want to take the floor of the real and imaginary components separately that's easy to implement yourself so they chose to add something weirder to the floor primitive
21:48:45  `locale
21:48:46  LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
21:49:10  b_jonas: what is J's generalisation?
21:49:20  that's cool that HackEso knows where you live...
21:49:23  `` locale | grep -v \"
21:49:24  LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_ALL=
21:49:44  I have like 15kg of coins
21:49:52  it works by making floor(x+y*i)=0 :iff 0<=x+y<1 and -1<=x-y<1, with the equality possibly on the other side of the second condition, I don't remember
21:50:43  that's just confusing, I wonder if there's a reason for it
21:50:48  I am not convinced that this makes more sense than just making floor(x+y*i)=floor(x)+floor(y)*i
21:51:33  I think I'm going to go with the floor(x)+round(y)*i approach
21:52:05  it seems wrong to not be symmetrical around the y=0 axis
21:52:49  "floor the real part and round the imaginary part" => hmm, I haven't considered that. but that seems wrong because it ruins the nice symmetry of ceil(x)=-floor(-x)
21:53:40  ' "round the real part and round the imaginary part" (symmetric modulus /round-division) is needed to make gcd work, thoguh' => yes, because you want the remainder to have a magnitude less than the divisor
21:53:45  no it doesn't? ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding
21:53:51  like round-ties-to-even
21:54:05  though I will note that the weird floor from J also satisfies that
21:54:28  which, now that I think of it, might be the reason why they chose that over componentwise floor, oh wow
21:56:05  so I was ready to pull request the --reduce option to the homebrew graph tool
21:56:16  "file descriptors are random numbers rather than consecutive integers" => I think Linux folks believe that the consecutive integers thing is sort of a mistake, because in some weird heavily multithreaded cases it can cause a performance penalty, and you don't really gain anything important from the guarantee, but it's too late to change now because some existing programs can rely on it
21:56:30  and it appeared that there is some bug in homebrew that does not really show the full tree
21:57:04  " I also prefer to pay using exact change when I can, but a law that has been introduced in Canada some time ago makes that difficult to do" => er, how so?
21:57:50  Maybe what would be better is unspecified unused file descriptor numbers with a specified minimum, but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want, and in that case it can be below the minimum number for automatically assigned numbers
21:57:52  When Finland switched to the euro, we never adopted the 1 and 2 cent coins, but we had prices at that level of precision, and I'm pretty sure the rounding was to nearest increment of 0.05 (which doesn't have any ties to break). And you could indeed pay with card the exact price. So theoretically you could optimize by selecting to pay cash whenever the price ended in .x1, .x2, .x6 or .x7; pay by card when 
21:57:58  it ended in .x3, .x4, .x8 or .x9; and do whichever on .x0 and .x5. I don't think I know anyone who did that, though.
21:58:07  ' ceil would presumably be "ceil the real part and round the imaginary part", so still symmetrical, as long as you use as symmetrical rounding' => hmm yes, you may be right
21:58:08  b_jonas: The Canadian government no longer makes one cent coins
21:58:10  b_jonas: they round prices to multiples of 5 cents if you pay cash, or something like that... let's see how close I got
21:58:38  "but you can also specify explicitly what file descriptor number you want" => we do have that in unix, it's called dup2
21:58:57  dup2 is just weird
21:59:02  it's probably better as a separate syscall than adding an extra parameter to every call that may return a file descriptor
21:59:09  I think it's mostly intended for redirecting stdin/stdout/stderr which have fixed numbers
21:59:15  ais523: yes, it is
21:59:36  ais523: but isn't it also, like, "free" in that it's something the kernel can do easily so why not expose it?
22:00:03  I mean once you have a unix model of inheriting file descriptors with the same numbers to subprocesses by default
22:00:30  so the kernel needs an inderection from file descriptor numbers to file descriptions, with some extra state for the file descriptors, in first place
22:00:42  fizzie: in NZ we called it "Swedish rounding" 
22:00:44  the extra state generally being just an O_CLOEXEC flag right now, but still
22:01:07  b_jonas: seek position is a big one
22:01:25  although, I'm increasingly of the opinion that seek position should be a userspace rather than kernelspace thing
22:01:32  ais523: no, seek position is shared over inheritance or dup
22:01:36  and the read API for seekable files should just specify the byte range (i.e. pread)
22:02:26  I think trying to unify files and streams is maybe not that great of a Unix decision.
22:02:39  huh, how was I not aware of round(-x) = -round(x) as a reason for round-to-even...
22:03:15  What else should be in userspace that's in the kernel?
22:03:18  The current directory.
22:03:21  TCP.
22:03:30  " I think that mean you could get things cheaper by paying cash" => I think of it as still paying the exact amount, only the coins in my wallet now represent an approximation of how much money I have, which is fine. but admittedly shops can't quite do that, they have to know the exact amount of cash that should be in a cashier's box so that they can do an inventory check to prove to stupid 
22:03:36  fussy customers that the cashier did not steal their money, or to prove to themselves that the cashier did steal money from them, without security camera footage
22:03:44  I can see arguments for TCP in kernelspace, although they aren't nearly as large as the arguments for IP in kernelspace
22:04:05  There are arguments for TCP in the kernel but they aren't very strong, I think.
22:04:08  many USB things
22:04:17  ais523: is there a way to find "the closest" Gaussian integer to unambiguous and meaningful? 
22:04:24  And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it.
22:04:29  to be
22:04:37  Also TCP is a bit of a scam in the first place.
22:04:47  salpynx: round-real, round-imaginary gives you the closest Gaussian integer by all sensible definitions
22:04:55  oh no, shachaf is going on a rampage again
22:05:12  Uh oh.
22:05:30  Soon all our connections will stop working, after shachaf argues TCP is logically impossible and it stops existing.
22:05:31  ais523: we do more or less have such an API with explicit byte ranges for, I almost everything in unix. pread, ftruncate, etc. technically you still need the seek pointer for the SEEK_DATA/SEEK_HOLE options of lseek, I don't think that has a seekless equivalent, but that's about all I can think of.
22:05:31  Hmm, so what are the arguments for TCP in the kernel? Maybe I didn't think it through.
22:05:57  fizzie: I think of TCP as more like a deal with the devil than a logical impossibility.
22:06:36  shachaf: it seems like at least non-root programs shouldn't have control over things like what parameters to use for their TCP connections
22:06:40  " And at least the kernel should give you the option of receiving and sending TCP datagrams, even if you don't always use it." => I think they do that, in the sense of letting you use send and receive raw IP packets if you want
22:06:51  there are like three different interfaces for raw IP already, for historical reasons
22:07:28  b_jonas: Only as root.
22:07:37  ais523: Hmm, why not?
22:07:37  shachaf: yes.
22:08:24  shachaf: programs are competing with each other for various resources, network is one of them
22:08:40  Right, but why on the TCP level?
22:08:46  and the details of TCP can have a lot of influence on how much share of a computer's network bandwidth each of the programs gets
22:08:58  but yes, I think it might be possible to make that work on the IP level alone
22:09:10  I think the whole "end-to-end" thing is a great idea.
22:09:25  in theory, if you can make it work at a lower level, that would be better, because it would leave fewer loopholes
22:10:30  (continuing to watch the Selectric video) wow
22:10:50  hmm
 are TCP and UDP port numbers in a shared namespace with each other? or separate?
22:10:58  Separate, I think.
22:11:01  if they're separate namespaces, that would be a good reason for the kernel to handle TCP
22:11:17  so that it can arbitrate when two programs both want to listen on the same port
22:11:34  The kernel would need to handle TCP to the extent that it handles UDP, i.e. check port numbers on incoming and outgoing packets.
22:11:40  I'm OK with that.
22:11:50  ais523: separate, but for historical reasons the older assignments of well-known ports by some acronym organization (ICANN or IANNA or whatever) were given in pairs of matching tcp and udp port numbers
22:12:10  IANA only has one N
22:12:26  then of course the 65536 port numbers easily ran out as people made more and more programs, and it no longer made sense to just assign a well-known port number to everything
22:12:34  I wonder whether if I make a service I can get a low port number for it nowadays.
22:12:37  Like 2.
22:13:06  I actually check the Wikipedia article for what port numbers are in common use, when writing new programs
22:13:10  to reduce the odds of clashes
22:13:24  although, there was an incident recently
22:13:34 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
22:13:37  where one of the Pokémon games was using the same port number as some widely deployed piece of hardware
22:13:40  so we still have HTTP on 80 and some fixed port numbers for services that tell you what port to use, but most programs just assume the port number needn't necessarily be fixed, and can either be configured by user with a default or is autodetected through some other service whose port can also perhaps be configured, which isn't such an overhead if you want to configure the host as well
22:13:53  and the hardware wasn't doing proper input validation and was crashing when the Pokémon games were played on the same network as it
22:14:07  ais523: oh nice
22:14:13  presumably this bug could have been intentionally exploited for years, but the accidental exploit was what got them to notice
22:15:14  I used to pick port numbers (for personal things) by selecting a two-character abbreviation sort of mnemonical to the thing the port was for, and then concatenatic those two characters into a 16-bit port number.
22:15:35  also there's DNS, which uses both an UDP and less often a TCP port with I think the same number, and has a really good reason to be on a fixed well-known port number
22:15:56  DNS servers also have a good reason to have memorable IP addresses
22:16:06  well yes
22:16:14  fizzie: that's how Donald Knuth picks variable names in INTERCAL
22:16:16  Oh man, if only multibyte character literal values in C had a defined meaning.
22:16:25  but with the ipv4 space so filled, that's not always so easy
22:16:25  except he uses Baudot encoding to fit three letters into the name
22:16:47  I guess no one should use TCP these days because everything is supposed to be encrypted, and TCP doesn't work well with encryption.
22:16:49  shachaf: people use macros for that, though I haven't seen it used for ports in particular
22:17:16  shachaf: TLS over TCP is *really* common, though
22:17:30  actually I'm not sure whether TLS over UDP even exists, even if it does it's much less common
22:17:46  shachaf: no, quite the opposite, everyone uses TCP these days even if they don't need to, because too many routing equipment tries to be too smart and check things in packets that they shouldn't like the TCP header
22:17:55  Well, establishing a TLS connection over TCP takes an extra roundtrip.
22:17:55  TLS isn't the only way to do encryption, but it does seem to be the consensus method
22:18:02  Which already makes it unsuitable for many applications.
22:18:25  TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused.
22:18:48  one thing I dislike about TLS is how unreliable it seems to be in practice
22:18:58  err, not TLS, TCP
22:19:14  bits of TCP communications have a tendency to go missing, even though the entire point of the protocol is meant to be to prevent that
22:19:27  shachaf: may I point you to https://noiseprotocol.org/ as a nice encryption protocol in general and a possible way to avoid unncessary roundtrips 
22:19:35  In terms of total bytes sent over the networks, I imagine YouTube must account for a rather a lot, and since I suspect pretty much no YouTube traffic from Chrome browsers (itself a pretty popular thing) uses TCP, I think it's likely there's quite a lot of non-TCP traffic out there.
22:19:41  and so, at the application level, you're often inventing your own reliable-connection protocols (with resending, etc.) on top of TCP, which is just so upsetting that you have to do that
22:19:52  " TCP fast open isn't great and I think is unused." => it is used by browsers these days, if both sides run modern software
22:19:52  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83481&oldid=83480 * Aylias * (+1343) 
22:20:16  TCP fast open doesn't seem great.
22:20:26  It doesn't work on the first connection, and it can be used to fingerprint clients.
22:21:48  I opened a pull request for your idea guys https://github.com/martido/homebrew-graph/pull/14
22:22:09 -!- spirgel has joined.
22:22:24  I like how TCP has something called "fast open" and something called "quick start" and the two have nothing to do with each other.
22:22:47  Wait, was it called "quick start"? Maybe I'm thinking of something else.
22:23:05  Oh, nope, RFC 4782.
22:24:22  It came up earlier, but there's a proposed new DNS resource record type, "HTTPS", which allows the DNS lookup to transmit enough information that a client can connect directly over HTTP/3 (or do an encrypted-from-the-start handshake) even on the first connection, among other little things like serving from a non-standard port, or allowing delegation of the zone apex (unlike CNAME).
22:25:01  Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported, which won't be feasible particularly soon.
22:25:15  b_jonas: that book is golden after all. Even a hyperbolic geometry dive-in
22:26:11  Putting it in DNS seems OK.
22:26:41  fizzie: interesting, I haven't followed HTTP/3 and even HTTP/2 only to a small amount
22:26:52 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
22:26:55  Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits?
22:27:07  Is HTTP/3 the one that uses QUIC?
22:27:18  Yep. It's really just the new name for QUIC.
22:27:25  Just like HTTP/2 was the new name for SPDY.
22:27:29 -!- Thelie has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:27:43  ' Though I imagine for anything "non-optional" (like serving *only* from a non-standard port), you'd have to presume it's supported' => sort of, but the server could put in a fallback redirect to a longer https address with a port in it where they serve HTTP/1.1
22:27:47  or HTTP/2
22:28:22 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:28:23  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https/ for that DNS thing, though it's only tangentially related to HTTP/3, since you can certainly do HTTP/3 even without -- it's just that the initial connection to a new unknown server won't be able to assume it speaks HTTP/3, so has to use the `Upgrade:` mechanism.
22:28:44 -!- ffmct has joined.
22:28:47  " Hmm, are ports a good idea, or should there just be some extra addressing bits?" => they are probably not a worse idea than partitioning the IP namespace to three parts, one where the default is 1<<8 addresses per local network, one where it's 1<<16, and one where it's 1<<24
22:29:20  it's like a thing that makes configuration easier in the common case, while you can still have a computer respond to multiple IP addresses if you wish, and that often happens now
22:30:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:31:07 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
22:32:33  I can see some argument for putting that sort of "initial trip" information (like whether the server does HTTP/3) in the same channels as are used to spread HSTS information
22:33:31 -!- dcristofani has joined.
22:36:25  arseniiv: I'm glad you like it
22:38:59  shachaf: Just to set the record straight, it is probably wasn't exactly correct to say that HTTP/3 is a "new name" for QUIC, for two reasons: they have been doing actual changes (not just minor incompatibilities) as part of the IETF process, so (what's now called) "gQUIC" is not the same protocol as QUIC; and as you implied, strictly speaking the IETF QUIC is the general-purpose protocol and HTTP/3 is 
22:39:05  just the mapping of HTTP on it.
22:40:25 -!- really3 has joined.
22:42:50  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83482&oldid=83481 * Aylias * (+2015) 
22:49:34  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83483&oldid=83482 * Aylias * (+82) 
22:49:43  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83484&oldid=83483 * Aylias * (+1) 
22:50:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:53  QUIC looked pretty complicated when I was looking at it.
22:51:56  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83485&oldid=83484 * Aylias * (+8) 
22:51:57 -!- imode has changed nick to rasengone.
22:59:57  when esolangers say "it's pretty complicated" it means something
23:00:45  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83486&oldid=83485 * Aylias * (+1181) 
23:01:02  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83487&oldid=83486 * Aylias * (+1) 
23:02:46  https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc
23:03:08  QUIC is kinda weird
23:03:16  SCTP is way cooler tbh
23:05:20  https://gitlab.com/ddevault/bf-irc-bot
23:06:21  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83488&oldid=83487 * Aylias * (+430) 
23:06:40  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83489&oldid=83488 * Aylias * (+1) /* Example Code */
23:11:15  [[MultiStacker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83490&oldid=83489 * Aylias * (+0) 
23:15:13 -!- dcristofani has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:21:40  2018-03-12: Slack is shutting down the IRC and XMPP gateways.
23:21:45  wow I missed it
23:28:01  [[MultiStacker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83491&oldid=83490 * Aylias * (+32) 
23:52:40 -!- xkapastel has joined.

2021-05-27:

00:35:11  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83492&oldid=83463 * Jedgrei * (+138) 
00:35:47  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83493&oldid=83492 * Jedgrei * (+57) 
01:04:27 -!- spirgel has quit.
01:09:32  [[Forth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83494&oldid=73957 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+26) Dead link in Forth wiki
01:11:31  The recent PR on fungot got me excited that github linguist could list arbitrary langs based on file extension, turns out no. Has to be on https://github.com/github/linguist/blob/master/lib/linguist/languages.yml 
01:11:31  salpynx: ulch! that meat was painted! yeah, baby! even if we can eat, and some would eat that want it; but we call it fortunatus's purse, is called tyr: yet first was the family head of a pair of offspring ( with kishar) of scaly lizards, especially those involving translocation. it was locked. he does not imply being happy and that after a slumber of uncounted years its time in the following: --more-- fury. unlike shades, only
01:12:39  bf and befunge are one there. I was hoping for Lazy K and Đźá“‚êł§âŽ” . Not sure there is much chance I'll be able to get those added any time soon.
01:14:58 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined.
01:25:30  Maybe instead they should add a possibility of a file in the repository to define the file types that you are using?
01:27:31  just discovered you cat get someone's public key like this: https://github.com/fis.keys
01:28:05  huh, neat.
01:28:16 -!- rasengone has changed nick to imode.
01:39:33  [[Esolang:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83495&oldid=83438 * Fizzie * (+496) IRC logs URL changed; refresh IRC section + tweak page formatting
01:45:30  (It was annoying me a lot that the logically "higher-level" headings were being typeset at a smaller size than the links to places, so I flattened the page structure to use ==-level headings only.)
01:51:50 -!- lucky has joined.
01:55:59  just discovered a cat in my previous message
02:01:32  Apparently works with a .gpg extension as well, for PGP public keys.
02:40:27  unileq! 
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03:20:55  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Quentin-k *  New user account
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03:21:51 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
03:22:36  are P-systems and counter machines equivalent?
03:23:02  or I guess, register machines.. I feel like they are.
03:24:04 -!- mistbreeze has joined.
03:24:13  [[User:New Army/Yes smoking day]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83496 * New Army * (+126) Created page with "No smoking day has caused trouble to many people so a suggestion to set up a yes smoking day on November 31st is made. {{WIP}}"
03:26:13  [[Esolang talk:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83497&oldid=83444 * New Army * (+178) 
04:11:41 -!- dcristofani has joined.
04:21:23  imode: the biologically inspired ?  many of them are universal, so yes equivalent to unbounded register machines 
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04:51:48  Freenode now has a blogpost apologizing and saying that some of the channel closings were mistakes
04:59:55  yeah, like I fucking believe that.
05:09:45  https://twitter.com/alyxw/status/1397774897875673090
05:09:52  (I haven't directly seen this)
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05:15:51  hah.
05:18:15  `` ./đŸŒ± 4 93079262
05:18:16  Seed
05:18:23  I do believe that. I think they used an automated filter to do what they did, so mistakes are inevitable. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are really that sorry or if they really care so much, since those things are different.
05:18:58  `` 13 jrypbzr|cut -d'<' -f2|sed "s/>.*/wiki\/$(.\/đŸŒ± 4 93079262)/"
05:19:00  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Seed
05:19:52  đŸŒ± is my attempt at writing an esointerpreter for HackEso. it's sitting in /tmp
05:20:59  A competent automated filter could have checked for +m, since that's what Freenode is now claiming they opposed, actual inability to speak in the channel, and active spam
05:21:07  So either incompetence or malice
05:21:46  Or they could have responded to channels doing that on an individual basis. They claim they received complaints. They could have acted on just actual complaints
05:23:33  O, I didn't know that. They may well be lying about something; there is probably some incompetence too. But, they say, don't attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity. Still, if they don't like certain features of the IRC server, they should have removed those features, I should think.
05:24:42  I can't figure out how to run piped befunge on the bot. bef.bin appends .bf to any process substituted input
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05:48:12  [[PUBERTY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83498&oldid=55787 * RanibowSprimkle64 * (+124) /* Commands */
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07:13:31  [[Special:Log/block]] block  * Ais523 *  blocked [[User:New Army]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Abusing multiple accounts: per [[Esolang:Policy]], you may not use alternative accounts as a method of hiding your actions; this account is only being used for disrup
07:14:10  [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[User:New Army/Yes smoking day]]": very offtopic userspace page, in the userspace of a blocked account
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07:21:22  `` echo 1 2 | ./bef2 <(./đŸŒ± 4 141745954) | head -c2
07:21:23  3
07:22:15  is a Seed program which generates a befunge adder. The example on the wiki doesn't terminate, most of the examples there don't bother to provide an `@`
07:22:49  07:51:48  Freenode now has a blogpost apologizing and saying that some of the channel closings were mistakes
07:23:26  yeah and they did that a long ago, but people pretended that they don't see it to just spend time telling each other about what happened
07:23:33  to build a mood, an impression
07:24:08  I "fixed" the befunge 93 interpreter's appending '.bf' to process subs with
07:24:11  `` sed 's/..bf/\x03\x00  /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2
07:24:13  No output.
07:25:05  can't get cfunge to work with piped output either. 
07:25:36  it's like if I spill a coffee on you and immediately say "oh I'm sorry" but you just spend a day telling everyone that I spilled it and only then after someone start saying "but hey, he said he's sorry" you say "no way! we all spent a day building our hate so now we can't believe he's sorry!"
07:25:43  it's trivial like shit
07:27:33  before and after my changes
07:27:35  `` ../interps/befunge/bef.bin hello ; ./bef2 hello
07:27:36  Error: couldn't open 'hello.bf' for input. \ Error: couldn't open 'hello' for input.
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08:14:04  `` sed 's/\x03.bf/\x03\x00  /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2
08:14:06  No output.
08:22:09  nakilon: well, if that had been the only thing that happened... well it wouldn't have happened then, would it.
08:23:00 * int-e notes that this is just a communication problem. IOW, rasengan still doesn't understand what he's done, or at least gives that impression.
08:23:29  he did nothing and people went shit
08:23:55  then he started applies measures against shit and people started saying that those measures were made before they went shit
08:24:07  because no one will check the real order of events
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08:24:19  people don't care, they want drama
08:24:34  I don't want drama.
08:24:40  That's why I scrapped Freenode.
08:24:57  so they forced you
08:25:01  by making drama
08:25:15  the good old "flame"
08:25:24  a lot of things went wrong, but rasengan is not a victim here
08:25:36  why not victim?
08:25:50  because we've spent a day repeating that he spilled coffee?
08:26:04  What's the coffee in this analogy?
08:26:32  It's a milk truck. And it has begun to stink.
08:26:32  any acts on his behalf that had reasons that people didn't want to realise
08:27:01  What was this person doing with the coffee machine in the first place?
08:27:07  he acts as if he represents FOSS just because he happens to have come into possession of the freenode.net domain
08:27:14  is making coffee illegal?
08:27:15  there was no way that could end well
08:27:32  s/represents/owns/
08:27:51  "he acts as if he represents FOSS" -- where did he?
08:28:08  Man, I can think of someone who likes drama.
08:28:16  by denying projects to choose their official home
08:28:16  I asked days ago and people had nothing to answer
08:28:54  anyway. sorry, I should've stuck to ##freenode
08:28:57   is making coffee illegal?
08:29:01  making coffee is not illegal
08:29:10  he can't deny anyone to chose anything, he has no ability
08:29:22  so it's fake
08:30:06  This is like the NethackWiki situation.
08:31:00  they nuked the haskell channel's ops because they put that some of their users had an unofficial channel on libera, now it's an official channel
08:31:08  oh well
08:31:25  they nuked the spam attack on freenode about this network
08:31:49  the attack that was lying to people that there is something that they can't explain why freenode is bad
08:32:04  now when you ask why freenode is bad they say "because they nuked haskell" but it wasn't in the first place
08:32:06  it's not spam to tell people that an official channel has moved to libera.chat
08:32:23  it's playing with people's inability to think and imagine the timeline
08:32:27  why are you going on about this?
08:32:32  *that* was the criterion they used for taking over channels yesterday
08:32:45  why do care so much about people that are inable to think?
08:32:55  #haskell was open for chatting, but prominently announced the move to libera.
08:33:12  so you're talking shit, and I'm angry so I'll ignore you for a bit
08:33:12  taking over or running the script automatically nuking channels with a topic and then they apologized and asked channel owners to message them in ircops channel?
08:33:19  ahahah
08:33:21  see
08:33:31  good idea
08:33:45  IRC was fun for 2 days but now im bored again
08:34:02  you've already been told that they apologized for a mistake but you continut to distort that event for drama
08:34:16  just to keep yourself angry
08:34:39  A lot of things had to go wrong for them to be in a position to make that mistake.
08:34:43  you literally don't want to know the truth
08:35:41  int-e: Do you happen to know any work related to making SAT solvers more understandable?
08:36:10  It's so frustarting dealing with a black box that takes some amount of time and halts, or maybe doesn't.
08:36:18  people love echo chambers where they can collectively hate things and people denying the fact check
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08:38:32  how would it be more understandable
08:38:55  01:36  The only thing that comes to mind is https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~vganesh/Publications_files/vg2015-SATGraf-SAT15.pdf which was interesting.
08:38:58  01:37  I'd really like the solver to be able to tell me which variables or clauses are causing it trouble, or anything like that.
08:39:02  Discussion continues in ##smt
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08:49:55  salpynx: If you have a case where you need a file instead of a pipe, or a specific extension, just make that file in /tmp (not ./tmp), that's an in-memory filesystem that only persists for the duration of a single command.
08:49:59  salpynx: Regarding befunge, the way ! does it is to go through ibin/befunge -> interp_file .../bef.bin -> lib/interp -> save to /tmp/input.$$ and run bef.bin, which has been working fine. So I'm pretty sure bef.bin only appends .bf as a *fallback*; if the file exists, it will run it.
08:50:20  `! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
08:50:21  hello
08:51:23  `` echo '"olleh">:#,_@' > /tmp/arbitrary_extension.txt && /hackenv/interps/befunge/bef.bin /tmp/arbitrary_extension.txt
08:51:24  hello
08:51:34  See?
08:52:30  Oh, it's not strictly speaking a *fallback*, rather it appends .bf if the file does not contain a '.' in the first place: http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/interps/befunge/bef.c#l229
08:53:16  Well, *that* is a little bit on the weird side. But it is what it is.
08:58:36  It's definitely true that a lot of things don't work with non-seekable input, though. In case of cfunge, that's because its file-load strategy is "stat, then mmap st_size bytes", which makes a non-seekable file act like an empty one, because its st_size is 0.
09:15:55  [[Esolang talk:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83499&oldid=83497 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+270) /* LifeWiki links */
09:16:23  Well, now, this is a scow: I've been using this bazel-compdb script to generate compile_commands.json from Bazel, but now I've got a cc_proto_library target that builds fine with `bazel build`, but makes `bazel-compdb` just fail because it somehow mucks up protoc flags (or something), and it dies on the line where it tries to import one of the well-known protos (google/protobuf/empty.proto).
09:16:56  I don't even know why it's running protoc, it's supposed to use Bazel aspects to just collect the commands it would need to run.
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09:24:40  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83500&oldid=83134 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+221) 
09:25:28  Apparently the step it fails at is when generating the `header_files` output group of a target that depends on the proto. I guess maybe that involves having to run the codegen. But then I don't know why it wouldn't work when it works when build... oh, I guess maybe it *doesn't* work when building, that target's not "ready" yet so I haven't been trying that.
09:25:46  (The script by and large works even when the tree doesn't build.)
09:26:35  Yeah, I was blaming the wrong thing, sort-of; it doesn't build.
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10:50:05  shachaf: yes, https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2021-05.html#lpXb
10:51:41  what is "Cheating quines" here? https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_quines
10:52:46  nakilon: they can directly access their source code or have a command like HQ9+'s 'q' that prints the source code
10:54:27  Taneb then the Fish, Alice and others would be "cheating" but they are classified as "real"
10:55:05  or you mean the stringmode isn't the "access to code"?
10:56:05  Hmm, I'm not sure
10:56:40  I wouldn't call stringmode access to the source code any more than a string literal in a conventional programming language is
10:57:35  But if I made a quine in Befunge that used the 'g' command to get the source code, I think that would be cheating
10:58:50  or rather what's the difference between "real quine" "1" in 05AB1E and "cheating quine" "This is a quine!" in Text
11:02:20  [[List of quines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83501&oldid=77340 * Nakilon * (+30) added RASEL
11:10:07  I can't really justify it that precisely, but I feel like stringmode *is* cheating if you *also* execute the bulk of the string.
11:11:27  As for Text, I don't know if that's so much a cheating quine as the same sort of trivial quine as the empty program in all languages where it's legal; Text just makes everything that.
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11:23:49  `? norway
11:23:51  `? iceland
11:23:52  Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec.
11:23:53  iceland? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:23:53  `? wegian
11:23:54  A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from.
11:24:41  `? ostrich-hungry
11:24:43  ostrich-hungry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:24:44  `? hungry
11:24:46  Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split off after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
11:24:46  `? ostrich
11:24:47  Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
11:24:55  `? france
11:24:56  france? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:26:01  I was just thinking of these quirky historically motivated import restrictions within Europe, like you can't import horses to Iceland, potatoes to Norway, and nobility titles to France or Ostrich-Hungry
11:29:19  Taneb: the context was befunge and rasel quines that have only one string delimiter, not a pair, in a row, and execute it both as string and code by wrapping around that line twice
11:29:37  relevant because that leads to short quines
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11:51:46  [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83502&oldid=83031 * DynCoder * (+108) /* Game */
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12:12:49  fizzie: thanks, I didn't know about ! to pick an interp (for all my poking around on hackeso)
12:13:06  `` \! "befunge &&+.@" <<< "7 8"
12:13:07  15
12:13:16  for input
12:13:42  `` ./bef2 <(echo "&&+.@") <<< "7 8"
12:13:43  15
12:15:22  is my 'patched' version of the binary that disables http://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/interps/befunge/bef.c#l231
12:17:03  The historical context is that the whole interps/ibin stuff comes from when EgoBot was disbanded, and all its interpreters were copied over to HackEgo, from where HackEso inherited them from.
12:17:41  The prefix for EgoBot was ! (as in, !befunge ...), so the command to invoke former EgoBot tools became `!.
12:18:07  aha. 
12:18:54  the patch is `sed 's/\x03.bf/\x03\x00  /' ../interps/befunge/bef.bin > bef2`  , which turns the appended .bf to a null string
12:19:17  https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Interpreters "TODO EgoBot, !" -- okay, the documentation does have some gaps here. :)
12:20:11  What I was trying to do is pipe the output from a seed interpreter to a befunge interpreter (ideally befunge98), but that isn't working because the original Seed code doesn't include `@` terminators :(
12:21:11  `` \! "befunge $(./đŸŒ± 4 141745954)" <<< '8 9'
12:21:13  17 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 18 Unsupported instruction 'ÿ' (0xffffff
12:22:50  but that's because the wiki Seed examples aren't perfect, and I haven't bothered to generate terminating ones, because that last char adds a lot of time. I don't think b98 auto terminates (compared to b93)?
12:23:54  IIRC, in Funge-98 unrecognized instructions are supposed to act as r (reflect the direction).
12:24:57  (And of course the *lack* of any instructions is just empty space, which wraps around, but that was already the case in '93.)
12:25:04  I wish there was a way to annotate the stack in funge
12:25:06  right, so the difference will be in exactly how they don't terminate
12:25:31  because I do the ...........@ and see 0 -2 9 -2 0 0 0 2 and who the hell knows what does it mean I already forgot half of this stack
12:25:54  I wrote down some notes on my preferred Befunge editor, and one of its features would have been per-cell stack annotations shown in a sidebar or a statusline.
12:26:05  But I've never gotten around to implementing it.
12:26:08  The most interesting thing about writing a Seed interpreter was discovering that the seed produces different results in Python 2 vs Python 3
12:26:15  once I start forgetting the stack meaning faster than reremembering it I just cancel solving it
12:27:03  I think there were a few other features in those notes that I thought were halfway clever. Should really pick it up.
12:27:20  probably I would be able to add the annotation to the debugger that I haven't made
12:28:35  I imagine that I annotate an instruction and so when it executes the annotation applies to the stack values that appeared there
12:29:17  that would probably mean I should print stack vertically, not horizontally so I could print annotations horizontally
12:29:26  *display
12:31:24  but how would you put the annotations in code? maybe some "comment lines" that you either delete in the end (and then have no idea how it works when you come back to the program in a month) or leave it there rejecting the plan to golf the code
12:32:24  or keep it in a special annotation-friendly interpreter that can reformat the code to remove them to "publish a clean version" of code
12:33:17  ideally it should be a real fancy text editor that would allow to annotate pieces of code and see/edit them by placing cursor/mouse on it
12:33:29  some custom GUI component
12:33:42  but I'm so far from making such things
12:33:52  [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83503&oldid=83494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* External resources */ Revive links using Web Archive
12:35:09  [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83504&oldid=83503 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* colorForth */ Wayback
12:35:09  heh, it's like how Word users comment the doc
12:35:33  maybe I should code in Word?... or a Google Doc at least
12:36:11  comments go orthogonal to your code, so for a funge they need to be in the 3rd dimension
12:36:15  it's possible to write applications for google docsactually
12:37:33  I imagine the google docs app can do fetch requests and so I won't even need to reimplement RASEL in it
12:38:03  but it would still need to implement some sort of the debugger that is the actual place where you need those annotations
12:38:33  or at least the ........@ way of "debug prints" that I use should also annotate the stdout then
12:39:32  `cat đŸŒ±
12:39:32  ​#!/bin/bash \ python -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed($2);print(''.join([chr((x(32,127)+[10])[r.randint(0,95)]) for i in x($1)]))"
12:40:14  fizzie: is that a useful command to commit? Would I just cp to /bin to commit it?
12:40:55 -!- moony has joined.
12:41:31  It's a Mersense twister random string generator, synced to the spec of the Seed language
12:41:40  `` for n in 28331 835133 30029010;do ./đŸŒ± $((i++ + 2)) $n;done
12:41:41  No \ Yes \ True
12:42:26  It can generate text like that which is probably more practical than befunge. I'm still trying to find 'False' output
12:44:26 * nakilon failed to google an "IDE with commenting the code like in MS Word"
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13:00:59  hm, looks like Google Apps Script can't obtain Comments from Doc but it can get them from Spreadsheet
13:01:41  so it would be possible to write the funge code one char per Spreadsheet cell
13:03:33  imagine writing such annotated code on one Sheet of the Spreadsheet, pressing the button, and the result will be printed on the second Sheet
13:04:11  vertically the run history, horizontally the stack
13:12:50  Looks like it's possible to call Cloud Functions from Apps Script authentified but only if they are in the same Project, i.e. if I make such thing I won't be able to give anyone access to it unless I set the Function to allow anonymous calls 
13:13:59  I figured out why my random numbers were different between py2 and py3, random.randrange() changed in 3.2 . I can use `int(r.random()*96)` instead of `randint(0, 95)` and the output will behave the same. The _seed_ behaviour only changed for bytes and str, ints is consistent 
13:22:00  `` đŸŒ± () { python3 -c"import random as r;x=range;r.seed($2);print(''.join([chr(([*x(32,127), 10])[int(r.random()*96)]) for i in x($1)]))";}; đŸŒ± 2 73
13:22:04  ​:P
13:27:41  [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83505&oldid=83500 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) Summary
13:28:07  [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83506&oldid=83505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) n
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13:35:32  meh, the "QT Marketplace" in 2021 does not provide much more choice than it was built in it IDEs like C++Builder and Visual Studio back in 2005
13:36:15 -!- leah2 has joined.
13:36:23  and now it's even impossible to find there anything, because there in those IDEs the components had previews and now those are just text items in the stupid mobile-friendly website
13:37:33  or maybe there is the "gallery" that I just didn't see yet
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13:47:35  "Literate programming" is the conventional term for when you want to make comments except more so.
13:48:01  Though I think usually not in the sort of Google Docs style highlight-and-separate-associated-comment-thread style.
13:55:08  salpynx: There isn't a high bar for making HackEso commands, and usefulness isn't required. If you want one, yes, you just need to put it in /hackenv/bin, or ../bin in terms of the default working directory (/hackenv/tmp). For one-liners, people sometimes use: `mkx ../bin/foo//contents of command foo
13:55:28  Also do take into account that when executed as `foo bar baz, the argument line isn't tokenized by whitespace, so 'bar baz' will be passed as the first positional argument. Many commands need tweaking to cater for that.
13:57:39  (And as a consequence, often when you're using ``, something that would "naturally" be q{`` foo bar baz} must become q{`` foo 'bar baz'} instead. Though some commands are user-friendly enough to support both (usually by joining all arguments together, as if by "$*", before splitting them apart as needed).
14:02:04  Is there a good editor for working on whitespace code?
14:02:12  emacs has a whitespace mode which isn't *too* bad
14:13:35  MrAureliusR I guess you can code in another alphabet
14:13:50  and translate it in between
14:14:00  There's a Vim thing, I don't know if it's any good either.
14:15:35  https://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=5035 probably.
14:15:56  I don't think it does all *that* much though.
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14:30:08  fizzie: I see the importance of getting the arguments tokenized both ways -- now handles both forms
14:30:15  `đŸŒ± 2 3406
14:30:17  ​:)
14:30:30  `` đŸŒ± 2 73
14:30:32  ​:P
14:31:44  `` for n in 28331 835133 30029010;do đŸŒ± $((i++ + 2)) $n;done
14:31:46  No \ Yes \ True
14:45:38  seeding
14:45:42  so it's a pun
14:48:20  ideally I would expand this thing https://befunge.flogisoft.com/
14:49:03  `` \? $(đŸŒ± 3 1009578)
14:49:04  Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
14:49:31  but it would be hard to make something based on it; hard to take the parts I need out
14:51:06  this numbers thing reminded me another funny local personality
14:51:32  that said that he has invented the compression based on division
14:52:21  "just find two numbers that diving one on another produce the infinite chain of digits you need and you'll be able to compress the whole CD in several digits"
14:53:04  Seed is a pretty poor compression algorithm ... on average. It'd be great to find one really good counter-examples
14:53:27  oh, yeah, that's pretty much the same concept
14:53:48  If it's the right CD, sure :)
14:55:00  Waterfall sounds (synthesised)
15:02:22  [[Patternfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83507&oldid=81205 * Robolta * (+1) /* Interpreters */
15:02:37  [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83508&oldid=83507 * Robolta * (-2) /* Interpreters */
15:06:39  [[User:VilgotanL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83509&oldid=82925 * VilgotanL * (+32) added languages i've created
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15:21:23   Waterfall sounds (synthesised) => lol
15:21:34  is that white or pink?
15:30:32  The problem with that question is, people keep using the term "waterfall plot" for a spectrogram with a vertical time axis, meaning it's hard to find good results that are actually related to spectra of real waterfalls.
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15:32:32  Galburn, L & Ali, TT, 2013, Acoustical and perceptual assessment of water sounds and their use over road traffic noise, JASA 133(1), pp. 227-237, suggests it's pretty white, all things considered.
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15:33:42  (Cf. Fig 4(a), "Spectra obtained for -- plain edge waterfall of 1 m width and 1 m height of falling water.")
15:45:14  [[Eul]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83510&oldid=73050 * Backspace * (+1832) 
15:45:58  [[Eul]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83511&oldid=83510 * Backspace * (-2) 
15:46:25  [[Eul]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83512&oldid=83511 * Backspace * (+2) /* Memory */
15:48:24  [[Eul]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83513&oldid=83512 * Backspace * (+31) /* Welcome to Eul */
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16:45:31  [[Struffoli]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83514&oldid=82940 * Zero player rodent * (+15) 
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17:57:46  [[2Swap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83515 * VilgotanL * (+1164) created the page
17:58:27  [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83516&oldid=83515 * VilgotanL * (+0) minor edit
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18:22:30  [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83517&oldid=83516 * VilgotanL * (+53) add example
18:27:51  [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83518&oldid=83517 * VilgotanL * (+70) add implementation
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18:29:01  [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83519&oldid=83509 * VilgotanL * (+12) added 2Swap to language list
18:31:52  [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83520&oldid=82891 * Oshaboy * (+6350) Added JSFuck
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18:39:21  [[2Swap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83521&oldid=83518 * VilgotanL * (+55) fix computational class section
18:39:29  o hi
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18:47:09  h
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18:49:52   h
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19:10:54  now I read “synaesthesized” in place of “synthesized” :o
19:12:50  tried to draw those projection things with a cone with circle and parabola on it in geogebra 3D mode, and it was surprisingly neat
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19:26:34  libera's official webchat at https://web.libera.chat/ is ready. this seems like a good time to make the channel move official and put a webchat link to the wiki page
19:26:49  fizzie, what's your opinion?
19:28:53  In my latest talk page post I said I'd do it unless anyone objects "by EOW", but I'm not too fussy about waiting if people want to go ahead.
19:29:04  What you could *definitely* do though is to replace the kiwiirc link I put on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
19:29:45  [[Esolang:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83522&oldid=83495 * B jonas * (-23) webchat link
19:30:20  Yes, although, the