←2021-06-22 2021-06-23 2021-06-24→ ↑2021 ↑all
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00:39:36 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I was told that even though swedish "ö" and norwegian "ø" are basically the same letter with a different shape, the same is not at all true for swedish "ä" versus norwegian "æ". I think this is something I should have noticed, but every time I saw something that pointed to it, I just assumed it's because norwegian spells everything weird.
00:40:04 <oerjan> i haven't heard of it, and looking at wikipedia's letter histories that doesn't fit.
00:40:38 <oerjan> æ and ä are both modifications of ae
00:41:12 <esolangs> [[Clart]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+8176) Created page with " '''Clart''' is an object-oriented mildly esoteric programming language designed and implemented by [[User:PolySaken]]. == Overview == Clart programs are composed of instruc..."
00:41:30 <oerjan> ö is a modification of oe, and ø _might_ also be, there are two theories on the wikipedia page, the other suggests ø is from anglo-saxon oi
00:42:45 <oerjan> so if those are the theories, then if anything it's ø and ö which are different. of course they are _used_ equivalently, and in fact older norwegian/danish sometimes used ö instead of ø (also from wikipedia)
00:43:15 <oerjan> *if those are the plausible theories
00:44:06 <oerjan> (i'd heard before that umlaut is from e, and æ is pretty transparent, so it's only really ø i doubt, like wikipedia.)
00:50:23 <oerjan> also according to wikipedia, old norse used æ rather than ä, so swedish borrowed the latter from german later. i think it may be similar with ø and ö, although i didn't find that explicitly.
00:53:59 <oerjan> (although it's mentioned that old icelandic used ø.)
00:54:56 <oerjan> oh i suppose that's also a form of old norse. so the swedish letters are newer overall.
00:56:23 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84911&oldid=84910 * PolySaken * (+1044)
00:59:12 <oerjan> as for why the alphabet orders are different, i don't really know but it's probably essentially because danish and swedish developed their spellings independently, during a time when relations were less friendly. norway was part of the danish kingdom then, and norwegian bokmål started out as adapted danish.
01:02:01 <oerjan> the use of å in danish/norwegian was iirc part of a reform to decrease the spelling differences around 1900 (when relations had got more friendly and possibly when norway was part of the _swedish_ kingdom)
01:02:24 <oerjan> before that, danish/norwegian used aa
01:04:00 <oerjan> (norway separated from sweden in 1905 so not sure which happened first)
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01:05:54 <oerjan> (for completeness, norway transfered from denmark to sweden in 1814 as a result of sweden and denmark choosing winning and losing sides in the napoleonic wars respectively (despite sweden's king being a former _general_ of napoleon)
01:05:58 <oerjan> )
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01:08:08 <ais523> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Last_Resort isn't known to be Turing-complete, you're thinking of the https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine
01:08:33 <ais523> also, I notice someone made a new category, contrary to policy, and am not sure what to do about it
01:08:51 <ais523> presumably, either delete it or add Feather to it, as it's looking a little empty at the moment
01:09:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh! of course the å being added later to danish/norwegian is an _explanation_ for why it's last in those alphabets.
01:09:44 <oerjan> although the other two are still reversed as well.
01:09:48 <ais523> also, both The Waterfall Model and BCT are easier to program in than "deliberately obnoxious" esolangs are, they're just very low-level
01:09:53 <ais523> but they can both be plausibly written by hand
01:09:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84912&oldid=83973 * PolySaken * (+402)
01:10:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Abethel * New user account
01:11:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84913&oldid=84912 * Ais523 * (+439) /* Category Proposal: 'Impossible To Implement' as Subset of unimplemented */ pretty much already exists
01:11:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think I was thinking of I/D machine in particular
01:11:57 <ais523> ah, OK
01:11:58 <b_jonas> but I understand that Last Resort is the wrong example
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01:12:51 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/2C has been pretty good for me in terms of being easy to prove things TC with, too
01:13:07 <b_jonas> "of course they are _used_ equivalently" => that is what I care about here, how the letters etymologically correspond in the spelling of different languges, rather than how the glyphs were invented
01:14:07 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84914&oldid=84911 * PolySaken * (+59)
01:15:02 <oerjan> not sure what that means.
01:15:05 <ais523> the I/D machine is good for proving things TC if they have random-access memory, https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Amnesiac_From_Minsk or The Waterfall Model for counters (or things that can be made to simulate counters), 2C for string- and queue-based languages
01:16:47 <oerjan> incidentally, danish and norwegian use æ fairly differently. in norwegian, it's pretty much always _pronounced_ [æ], unlike in danish. (and swedish ä is also more variable.)
01:17:29 <oerjan> so it's not clear that etymological correspondence gets any simpler than glyph histories.
01:17:56 <ais523> oh, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stun_Step is another good example of something that's more or less directly "simpler" than BF
01:18:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean the words that have "å" in swedish will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is usually also spelled with an "å" ("två" vs "to" notwithstanding) and backwards for norwegian words with an "å"; and swedish words with "ö" will usually have an etymologically related word in norwegian that is spelled with an "ø" and backwards; but the same is generally not true
01:18:12 <b_jonas> for swedish words spelled with an "ä"
01:19:16 <oerjan> yes, norwegian often uses e where danish uses æ or swedish ä
01:19:32 <oerjan> especially in front of r.
01:19:56 <oerjan> when short.
01:20:08 <ais523> you can also go simpler than cyclic tag: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag
01:21:14 * nakilon understands near nothing about the computational classes
01:21:17 <nakilon> btw
01:21:59 <b_jonas> ais523: well ok, but 2C is one that would be particularly unsuitable for implementing in Rasel
01:22:15 <b_jonas> which was the original question
01:22:15 <ais523> I'm not sure what Rasel is like, so I'm just talking in general terms
01:22:35 <b_jonas> although
01:23:08 <b_jonas> perhaps I'm wrong in that and you can do some funny Gödel arithmetic magic thing while representing the whole string as a single bignum
01:23:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: when i looked into swedish phonology a while i discovered one important reason: unlike norwegian, swedish distinguishes open and closed e as long vowel phonemes, written ä and e respectively. (overall, swedish vowel spelling is more logical than norwegian.)
01:23:16 <oerjan> *a while ago
01:23:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84915&oldid=84888 * Abethel * (+458) Introduce myself
01:23:22 <nakilon> google has a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_results_page#Featured_Snippets from esolang wiki
01:23:30 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/IBNjxbN.png
01:24:05 <ais523> hmm, I assume this thing (Rasel) has an unboundedly large playfield/program space, but it only ever contains the program the user entered, so the size is fixed for any given program
01:24:27 <oerjan> (short e is always open in both languages. oh and swedish regularly turns open e into [æ] before r.)
01:24:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that is correct for the code space; the data space is the Rasel stack and it can grow unbounded both in depth of stack and how large the contained numbers are
01:25:21 <b_jonas> and I call it "stack" but you can actually random access it
01:25:44 <ais523> yes
01:25:57 <ais523> my first thought is to compile Mini-Flak into Rasel, but we don't actually have an article about Mini-Flak yet
01:26:01 <ais523> so I'm planning to write one
01:26:43 <fizzie> What the *what*.
01:26:46 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of that one, but we also don't actually have an article specifically about two/three stack machines with arbitrary finite control
01:26:51 <fizzie> I mean, it's just MediaWiki, I'm not surprised Google indexer can extract good snippets from it in theory. I'm just blown away by the idea that we're the featured snippet for a query like "computational classes". Though not quite as blown away as I'd be if that was the case for "computational class" too.
01:26:55 <nakilon> there was a flak cannon in ut2004
01:27:43 <ais523> there are adverts for our Esolang wiki running on Stack Exchange, and none of us put them there
01:28:27 <ais523> "Want to find a programming language that's – unique? – hard to use? – just plain weird? Esolang – the esoteric programming language wiki"
01:29:42 <fizzie> Weird. Well, at least our Google search performance hasn't really improved lately. We have an average search result position of 20, an average CTR of 0.9% and generally somewhere in the order of 10 daily clicks.
01:29:54 <b_jonas> ais523: on which Stack Exchange site? there's a meta post in each SE site where those advertisments are defined, and they have history like normal posts so we can tell who put the adverts there
01:30:03 <fizzie> (And the most popular query is still "intcode".)
01:30:03 <ais523> b_jonas: code golf and coding challenges, unsurprisingly
01:30:49 <b_jonas> yeah, I shouldn've guessed that, though the other possibility is Stack Overflow to keep esolang stuff away from it like we keep them away from en.wikipedia
01:31:23 <b_jonas> https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23544/6691
01:31:32 <fizzie> Also on the top list is the very clearly organic search query `inurl:logs intext:get https:// ext:txt intext:password intext:username` which brings up this (well, the previous) channel's logs from 2013-05-22.
01:31:39 <nakilon> damn, I didn't know their formatting doesn't replace newlines with spaces https://github.com/topics/esolang
01:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: that is organic, I think, in that the people searching for that do care about the results
01:32:37 <ais523> …probably this explains the low click-through rate, as we're a false positive for it :-D
01:32:39 <Corbin> ais523: Is there a possible path to explaining complexity classes for nakilon and others in a way that would let us get beyond mere Turing-completeness?
01:33:16 <ais523> Corbin: well, classes beyond TC are quite hard to define, as you're talking about something that we believe can't exist, so it's starting to get into the realm of philosophy rather than programming
01:33:19 <Corbin> I know that that's your focus, but I would very much like a P/BQP/PP/CSP/NP fine-grained explainer page.
01:33:22 <b_jonas> Corbin: that sounds like two different problems clumped together
01:33:37 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84916&oldid=84901 * PolySaken * (+511)
01:33:38 <Corbin> Oh, I wanted to go down, not up, sorry. "Beyond" was a poorly-chosen word.
01:34:24 <b_jonas> Corbin: one about explaining what complexity classes are and all the lots of basic stuff theorems taught about them; and learning about complexity classes more powerful than turing-complete
01:36:07 <b_jonas> if you want to do the first one at your own time, then there's Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling", (1972; ISBN 0139145567)
01:36:52 <Corbin> I'm just wondering if there's a better option than directly linking to the Complexity Zoo.
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01:39:56 <b_jonas> Corbin: yes, the zoo is a reference, not a textbook
01:40:30 <nakilon> there is this meme https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/56b609a3cd4b463f683e912b2e191320.jpg
01:40:43 <b_jonas> textbooks are Aho–Ullman or David Madore's (scrambles to find the link)
01:40:44 <nakilon> it says: "too complex, goodbye :)"
01:40:59 <b_jonas> course notes http://perso.enst.fr/~madore/inf105/notes-inf105.pdf linked from http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-11-10.2477.html
01:40:59 <nakilon> it's what I think when I take a look at the articles you link
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01:42:52 <b_jonas> but these two are not the right introduction if you care about complexity classes more potent than Turing-complete
01:43:30 <oerjan> i, i too complex
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01:43:41 <b_jonas> unless you want only NR the class of recursively enumerable languages, which is an important class on its own
01:44:21 <esolangs> [[Clart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84917&oldid=84914 * PolySaken * (+24)
01:44:22 <Corbin> b_jonas: I just think that the wording on the wiki could be simpler.
01:45:14 <b_jonas> wording? what wiki page?
01:45:36 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class ? \
01:45:41 <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever tried to read that one
01:47:21 <Corbin> TIL that page. Never mind! This is good.
01:48:41 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84918&oldid=84883 * PolySaken * (+73)
01:49:07 * oerjan is annoyed that putty doesn't seem to have a reliable solution to ssh session disconnecting (the keepalive setting sometimes doesn't help, and according to docs can make things _worse_ in some cases.)
01:50:10 <oerjan> and of course a web search turns up suggestions to turn on keepalive as if i hadn't already.
01:51:42 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+3301) this could do with an article; start with just a basic specification (a longer article would certainly be possible but I don't want to write it right now)
01:52:38 <ais523> Corbin: for categories below TC, I think the one we care most about at Esolang are finite-state and push-down automaton
01:53:48 <oerjan> linear bounded sometimes comes up too
01:54:02 <ais523> which are both related to memory restrictions: finite-state languages have only a finite amount of memory, and push-down automata have only a finite amount of memory + one unbounded stack, where each element of the stack is drawn from a set of finitely many possibilities
01:54:03 <Corbin> ais523: This is understandable. I care most about P vs NP, but that is probably just my obsession with performance.
01:54:40 <ais523> P and NP are a bit subtle because they require you to define the "size of the problem" you're working on
01:54:54 <ais523> and depending on the details of that definition you can get different results
01:55:08 <ais523> but a sensible way to define it is to talk about the number of bits/bytes (doesn't matter) of input that's given to the program
01:55:42 <ais523> then, a language in P says that the execution time of any program in the language must be bounded by some polynomial of the size of the input
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01:56:06 <Corbin> Yeah. But it'd be nice to make it clear to users. To use a non-esoteric example, CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP.
01:56:20 <ais523> (and "P-complete" would mean that the language is in P, and also is capable of expressing any program that can be written in any language in P)
01:56:47 <ais523> NP is weird, and easier to understand than it is to explain it to someone else, which doesn't help much with teaching it
01:56:47 <Corbin> Yes. Again with a non-esoteric example, Pola is P-complete.
01:57:40 <ais523> oh, there was an article for Mini-Flak already, just spelled differently
01:58:09 <ais523> mine's better :-P I'm going to make the old one into a redirect and merge the example program
01:59:49 <b_jonas> "CHR is solidly in NP under our current understanding, because it's built on CSP." => am I just too tired to understand this? what are "CHR" and "CSP"?
02:00:07 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84920&oldid=84919 * Ais523 * (+111) merge content from [[Miniflak]], which I didn't realise existed until after I'd written this (given that most sources for the language spell its name with a hyphen)
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02:00:35 <esolangs> [[Mini-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84921&oldid=84920 * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too
02:00:38 <Corbin> CHR, Constraint Handling Rules, is a mainstream logic proglang. It's usually found as an embedded DSL.
02:01:26 <Corbin> CSP is Constraint Satisfaction Problems. This class sits between P and NP and contains problems like whether a Datalog database satisfies an input query.
02:01:38 <esolangs> [[Miniflak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84922&oldid=50951 * Ais523 * (-802) merging into [[Mini-Flak]] (an independently created article about the same language, with the more commonly used spelling for its name)
02:02:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84923&oldid=84909 * Ais523 * (+1) /* M */ correct the spelling of [[Mini-Flak]] to the more commonly used spelling
02:03:00 <b_jonas> ais523: that scared me for a moment, just on account of being a small TC language that uses multiple different kinds of brackets in its source code, but no, it doesn't seem to be related to Consumer Society
02:03:04 <b_jonas> Corbin: thanks
02:03:23 <Corbin> No worries. Sorry for using so many acronyms.
02:03:50 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84924&oldid=83635 * Nakilon * (+166) added link to a translator from brainfuck to rasel
02:04:57 <oerjan> . o O ( TLAs FTL )
02:06:45 <nakilon> * Ais523 * (+28) merge the cats too
02:06:48 <nakilon> poor cats
02:06:49 <ais523> The Waterfall Model should compile into RASEL pretty easily too, I think, thinking about it
02:07:19 <ais523> The Whirlpool Model even more easily; I'm not sure I ever proved that one TC
02:07:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought of that first, but I think a multiple-stack machine with finite control actually maps better
02:08:18 <b_jonas> ais523: Whirlpool Model? that doesn't even seem to be defined on the wiki under that name
02:08:35 <ais523> (Whirlpool is Waterfall with the restriction that the command table is cyclically symmetric, i.e. the effect of stack a zeroing on stack b is constant for any value of a-b (mod the number of counters)
02:08:38 <ais523> )
02:08:47 <ais523> yes, I haven't talked about it yet
02:08:57 <b_jonas> or maybe something is wrong with how I search, because "Whirlpool" should at least find something about the trintercal unary operator
02:09:35 <ais523> oddly that operator isn't named as "whirlpool" in the https://esolangs.org/wiki/TriINTERCAL article
02:09:41 <b_jonas> wait...
02:09:45 <ais523> only as "BUT" and "@"
02:09:50 <b_jonas> oh, TriIntercal with two is
02:09:53 <b_jonas> two eyes
02:10:40 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't mention "bookworm" either. our wiki's documentation about intercal and triintercal is rather lacking
02:10:50 <ais523> the problem with The Whirlpool Model is that it's hard to make an article about it that's more interesting than "this is The Waterfall Model with this one restriction"
02:10:57 <ais523> unless you have a TCness proof, and I don't
02:11:14 <b_jonas> ais523: then don't make a separate article, just mention it in the article about the Waterfall Model
02:11:44 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84925&oldid=84893 * Rphii * (+148) /* Examples */ add factorial example
02:11:47 <ais523> (oerjan and I have a TCness proof for the case where counters go down 2 at a time rather than 1, and we only trigger on zero counters not negative counters, but that's much easier to prove)
02:11:50 <nakilon> there should be a language that calls some web api to check current stars and planet position to decide how to execute
02:12:11 <ais523> why need a web API, other than possibly one that detects changes to the rotation of the Earth?
02:12:28 <ais523> the positions of planets and stars are believed to be very predictable, so you can just implement it in your program
02:12:47 <nakilon> oh it can take current time actually and calculate their positions
02:12:49 <b_jonas> ooh, make it only work if you have GPS hardware connected to correct for that, that's more reliable (though more restrictive too) than a web API
02:12:53 <nakilon> yeah
02:12:59 <ais523> but, the rotation of the Earth does sometimes change in measurable but unpredictable ways, which is why we need a central time database to tell us when the leap seconds are
02:13:18 <ais523> (not by very *much*, but enough that we can measure it)
02:13:52 <nakilon> you can integrate it with the real telescope but it would have pretty low performance
02:14:13 <b_jonas> that's even more restrictive
02:14:31 <nakilon> and the behaviour of the runtime will be more defined at night rather than in day or if it's cloudy
02:14:50 <b_jonas> you can get a GPS signal in much more places and times than observe anything useful with a telescope
02:15:09 <ais523> I was working on an esolang a while back, which works like this: we have a high-quality PRNG (with known seed) which defines an infinite universe of non-overlapping 3D objects, drawn from a particular set, in random positions and orientations
02:15:27 <ais523> the objects are reflective
02:15:42 <ais523> and a program is a starting position and direction for a laser beam somewhere in that infinite universe, which bounces off the objects
02:15:42 <b_jonas> in particular, because of some stupid technical reasons for how current computer hardware works, we usually prefer to put computers inside buildings or at least covered by a ceiling
02:15:54 <ais523> but, I abandoned it because I couldn't make it TC, and it isn't interesting unless it's TC
02:15:58 <b_jonas> you can get GPS signal in many buildings, but you can't always see then sun from inside them
02:16:13 <nakilon> sounds like something to run on RTX
02:16:53 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, that reminds me to a MathOverflow question
02:16:54 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84926&oldid=84925 * Rphii * (+144) /* Commands */ explicitly said that inlining is possible
02:17:05 <b_jonas> s/ to / of /
02:17:37 <nakilon> b_jonas I would say it's ok if the language works only under sky, it's like a biological life that prefers the surface of the planet
02:17:37 <ais523> prepositions translate so badly between languages
02:18:38 <nakilon> it's literally an environment
02:18:52 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84927&oldid=84926 * Rphii * (+11) /* Factorial */ add a newline after printing result
02:19:07 <b_jonas> https://mathoverflow.net/q/156344/5340
02:19:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I know that particular one, because it's a mistake that others kept pointing out to me, so I learned it
02:20:31 <ais523> I assume it's "remind to" in Hungarian?
02:20:32 <b_jonas> and if I think about it, "of" still sounds wrong
02:20:55 <ais523> "remind to" can be valid in English, but only if the thing you're being reminded of is an action you need to take right now
02:21:02 <ais523> e.g. an alarm clock reminds you to wake up
02:21:04 <Corbin> ais523: I think it depends on the objects. There are some fractal surfaces which can exhibit self-reflection. It would be interesting if we could show that we could decide if a given fractal's got divergent patches of surface area.
02:21:17 <b_jonas> ais523: is that only with a verb infinitive after "to"?
02:21:19 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84928&oldid=84927 * Rphii * (-102) /* Numbers */ the ?-number is good
02:21:21 <ais523> b_jonas: right
02:21:24 <b_jonas> and to your question, at least it's closer to "remind to"
02:23:20 <b_jonas> Hungarian has twelve common noun cases that come up all the time with various different meanings, and they don't map all that well to English prepositions, except for the unmarked nominative case which is more or less than same as English subject position
02:24:01 <ais523> hmm, so the original is some form of dative?
02:24:19 <b_jonas> the second is for what English calls direct objects, one miscellaneous one, and then a table of 3x3 that most overtly mean from, from on, from in, at, on, in, to, onto, into
02:24:21 <ais523> that makes a lot of sense actually
02:25:02 <b_jonas> and "emlékeztet", which is what I translate "reminds" to, that comes with the onto case
02:25:57 <ais523> Latin has two cases which resemble prepositions (three if you count the genitive), so seeing a language generalize the concept isn't much of a surprise
02:26:18 <ais523> (in English, a genitive like "b_jonas's" is a separate case, but in French the same construction uses a preposition)
02:27:20 <b_jonas> this, by the way, results in some funny stuff in bad translations of mail+calendar programs, the ones that use a single localizable message "To" for both the recipient of an email and the end time of an interval entry in the calendar. and the interface puts that one thing before the noun.
02:27:50 <ais523> that sounds like an impossible job for the translator :-D
02:28:35 <ais523> at least mark them as to^recipient and to^until in the translation source so that there's some hope of being able to get it right
02:29:39 <b_jonas> ais523: as far as I'm aware, just one "to" prefix more or less works in the French, German, Swedish translations, so clearly you don't need to do that
02:30:11 <b_jonas> :)
02:31:15 <ais523> in fact, it's worse, given that the recipient could be a person you should logically have to^female and to^male to get the grammar right, but the email client has no way to know the gender of the recipient
02:31:28 <b_jonas> just what a great foresight the people who invented email MIME headers had to name that field "To" instead of "Recipient", now we don't need extra strings in the translation
02:31:54 <ais523> (I learned how to do translation markup from video games, where the people you're referring to are normally fictional people you've invented and thus you know their genders)
02:32:32 <b_jonas> ais523: in what language would you have to distinguish between genders in the context of an email recipient?
02:32:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RandoPerso * New user account
02:32:43 <b_jonas> I mean if it's called "to" rather than "recipient"
02:32:50 <b_jonas> if it was "recipient" than maybe
02:32:52 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know any for certain offhand
02:33:17 <ais523> but, say, in Latin, if you want "to" as a preposition to say that someone is a recipient, you need to transform the end of their name rather than using a separate word
02:33:25 <ais523> and the correct transformation depends on their gender
02:33:48 <b_jonas> yeah, true
02:33:55 <ais523> so in practice you would need to translate to "recipient" instead and that might also depend on their gender
02:34:26 <b_jonas> latin had a word for writing a letter to a woman?
02:34:36 <b_jonas> I'm still sarcastic
02:34:54 <ais523> I just looked it up
02:35:14 <ais523> the Latin word for "recipient" is "acceptor" or "acceptrix" depending on whether the recipient is male or female
02:35:27 <b_jonas> nice
02:35:29 <ais523> I didn't know for certain that it would be gender-dependent, but lots of words in Latin are, so this one doesn't surprise me
02:36:05 <ais523> ("acceptor" seems to have become an English word, but typically only used for inanimate objects rather than people; "acceptrix" hasn't)
02:36:57 <ais523> hmm, maybe this is why the ancient Romans didn't have email
02:39:24 <nakilon> $ echo "+" | ruby examples/bf_translator.rb
02:39:24 <nakilon> :03--::\01--G1G//%1\1-\$0@
02:39:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84929&oldid=84915 * RandoPerso * (+257)
02:39:34 * nakilon sighs
02:42:35 <b_jonas> to be clear, Hungarian ordinary nouns have 15 common cases, but only 12 of them are heavily overloaded to mean all sorts of different things, the other 3 have just one or two easy to define meanings
02:48:02 <nakilon> heh b_jonas https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png
02:48:37 <nakilon> I wonder if the 7th one is the same all over the place that is in Ukrainian
02:49:38 <nakilon> the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case
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02:55:37 <oerjan> i remember some page about how to do translation markup in one of the haskell web frameworks
02:56:44 <oerjan> it sort of mentioned how you could use arbitrary haskell functions, and how this might even handle something really complicated like russian numbers
02:57:17 <oerjan> apparently different russian numbers differ in both how they themselves and the noun they're applied to inflect
02:59:13 <oerjan> actually i'm not entirely sure if it mentioned russian numbers, or if i merely combined what it said with what i'd learned about russian numbers elsewhere
03:00:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: the -nek/nak case, is that one of the other 3, or that "miscellaneous" you mentioned?
03:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:PolySaken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84930&oldid=84916 * PolySaken * (+4)
03:00:46 <oerjan> (i know that can work as either dative or genitive)
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03:07:18 <oerjan> nakilon: i checked ukranian, lithuanian and czech and they all have the same set.
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03:08:06 <oerjan> polish too
03:08:13 <nakilon> idk what was your page about but "1" - один одного одному один одним одном; and there is a difference between numbers and digits, so number 1 is "один" but digit 1 is "единица" -- it's kind of like "zero" and "null" or "none" but there are two words for all 10
03:08:32 <oerjan> i recall latin has ablative instead but it lacks locative and instrumental so only gets 6
03:08:43 <oerjan> i think proto-indoeuropean had those 8
03:10:02 <oerjan> nakilon: it was mostly how the noun's case can vary depending on the number that was intriguing
03:10:19 <oerjan> and some numerals are non-inflectable, while others aren't.
03:11:21 <oerjan> although i don't remember any details except that 1000000 seems to take genitive plural noun
03:11:26 <nakilon> 2 -- two -- два, двойка; pair -- пара; but also sometimes двойка means a pair in cases like a pair of horses, also тройка for three of them
03:11:27 <oerjan> (at least sometimes)
03:12:05 <nakilon> hm
03:12:53 <oerjan> nakilon: anything the relevance to translation is that if you try to automatically translate the numeral and the noun separately, you'll get it wrong
03:13:25 <oerjan> even if you distinguish between singular and plural nouns, which is the only thing which matters in norwegian.
03:13:38 <oerjan> and english too, i guess.
03:13:59 <oerjan> no wait norwegian has gender. but not cases.
03:15:01 <oerjan> tldr: if you make a translation software without knowing anything about languages other than english, you're hosed.
03:15:16 <nakilon> heh, numbers don't have gender in Russian but digits are all female
03:15:53 <oerjan> nakilon: the number 1 has the same gender as the noun, surely? that's the other thing i remember.
03:16:31 <oerjan> i mean the kind of number you put in front of nouns, not the ones you use for counting, which i guess might be different.
03:17:14 <nakilon> make one man - сделать одного мужчину; make one woman -- сделать одну женщину
03:18:02 <nakilon> by "don't have gender" I mean they take the gender of the word they count
03:19:51 <oerjan> right
03:20:04 <nakilon> two (of something male) -- два, two (of something female) -- две, two humans -- двое
03:21:17 <nakilon> two males -- два or двое, two females -- две or двое, two mixed -- двое
03:24:22 <nakilon> oh wait, these is only about 1 and 2, and starting from 3 there is still a form for counting humans but no distinction between male and female; 3 - три, трое
03:25:38 <nakilon> looks like native language is more complex than you think because these rules aren't being taught explicitly, you mostly already know them when you come to school
03:29:25 <nakilon> heh, now I imagine a programming language where you use case to call some methods on an object, like type casting
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03:47:48 <oerjan> nakilon: have you looked at Perligata
03:48:10 <oerjan> not quite methods though
03:53:19 <nakilon> рah
03:53:23 <nakilon> *hah
04:20:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84931&oldid=84929 * PixelatedStarfish * (+436) /* Introductions */
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04:51:50 <nakilon> taught bf->rasel translator to make paths across already existing lines of code by inserting spaces in them -- size of helloworld improved from 2000 to 1000 chats
04:59:22 <nakilon> "Currently the program doesn't print "Hello World!" but "you're a cunt" (I don't know what means that). I've changed the code to the one that is in the spanish Wikipedia."
04:59:32 <nakilon> (c) wikipedia brainfuck discussions page
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05:16:59 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84934&oldid=84933 * PixelatedStarfish * (-17)
05:17:12 <riv> hi
05:17:53 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84935&oldid=84934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
05:25:43 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84936&oldid=84935 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1984)
05:39:10 <nakilon> heh, the brainfuck helloworld on rosettacode is also silently broken -- it prints Goodbye, Wrold!
06:27:13 <riv> haha
06:27:15 <riv> i like that
06:28:35 <int-e> noone will ever know
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08:07:24 <b_jonas> oerjan: -nek is the third one, the third most common after nominative and object case, the one I didn't say anything about it and that is the most heavily overloaded
08:08:14 <b_jonas> also causes the most ambiguities in practice because it's so overloaded, you often find trying to write sentences with two nouns in -nak case bound to two different other parts of the sentence and having to rewrite to avoid that
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08:59:27 <arseniiv> https://i.postimg.cc/dt4fmztx/conversation.png
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10:26:08 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84943 * AmNow * (+98) Created page with "Hello, I am AmNow. I havent posted my esolangs yet, but hopefully we can see one in the future."
10:55:08 <esolangs> [[()s]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84944 * AmNow * (+1009) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title={}s}} {}s (pronounced: Sets) is an esolang made by [[User:AmNow]]. (Phelo Saad) == Commands == {}: Expression (can be nested) ie: {%+%} %: the constant..."
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11:07:49 <esolangs> [[()s]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84949&oldid=84948 * AmNow * (+0) misspell
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11:15:59 <Koen_> bonjour
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16:57:35 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85015&oldid=85012 * Rphii * (+211) /* Calculator */ add smaller variant
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17:25:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85016&oldid=85015 * Rphii * (+301) /* Commands */ added output commands with newline function and #-command
17:27:34 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85017&oldid=85016 * Rphii * (+100) /* Escape Sequences */ add escape sequence of #
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17:50:56 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85019&oldid=85018 * Rphii * (+64) /* Commands */ clarify recently added commands
17:52:14 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85020&oldid=85019 * Rphii * (+75) /* Stack */ clarify
17:54:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85021&oldid=85020 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ fix mess-up
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18:39:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85022&oldid=85021 * Rphii * (+134) /* Numbers */ added range
18:40:03 <b_jonas> re yesterday's language thing, one problem with counting noun cases in Hungarian is that it's not clear to me if there's a clear boundary between case endings and prepositions that you put after the nouns. some prepositions like "under" work basically the same as case endings, it's just that we write the endings that never add more than one syllable ran together without a space, and it's only those that
18:40:09 <b_jonas> you count for cases. sure, case endings can also change the ending of the noun, but they can't change them in 15 different ways, you would probably only need four cases if you allowed writing any almost-fixed suffix with a space (almost-fixed as in the only thing that may vary is two-way or three-way vowel harmony)
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18:42:55 <b_jonas> no wait, you'd need five cases, not four, because of -val
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18:46:49 <b_jonas> nakilon: re "https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas_grammatical#/media/Fichier:Number_of_grammatical_cases_hic01.png" looks funny
18:47:06 <riv> hi
18:49:05 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85023&oldid=85022 * Rphii * (+184) /* Numbers */ clarify
18:50:18 <b_jonas> there's also the complication of numerals in Hungarian, which complicate the model. numerals have unique affixes that you can only apply to them, including two that are case endings, plus they can get basically all the normal noun/adjective affixes
18:56:28 <b_jonas> so when you have a numeral, you first add a suffix which can be (nothing (to result in a cardinal), -od or similar (to result in a reciprocial fraction), -odik or similar (to result in an ordinal), or -odika or similar (only used for date numbers within a month)) and THEN you add a case ending which can be most of the normal noun case endings, or the special -szor ("times"). and any of those infixes
18:56:34 <b_jonas> will of course change in form and change the form of whatever is immediately before them for all sorts of phonetic reasons, plus a few numerals have special irregular rules (like "first" and "second" in English).
18:57:17 <b_jonas> not that this is in any way special, because ordinary nouns/adjectives and verbs also get multiple agreeing suffixes in sequence, and occasionally it's not even clear if something is one suffix or a common combination of two suffixes modified to unrecognizability
19:02:21 <b_jonas> because verbs get suffixes for (any combination of (4 mode-tenses times 6 number-persons times 2 object agreements) with like 46 or 47 of the 48 combinations actually distinguishable for some verbs) or (an infinitive ending with one of 7 number-persons, so you can use it as either a noun phrase or an argument to an auxiliary verb) or (one of the three adjective participle endings so you can use it as an
19:02:27 <b_jonas> epiteth or noun phrase) or (an adverb participle ending so you can use it as an adverb).
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19:05:46 <b_jonas> and nouns/adjectives can get (nothing or less often one of six number-person endings indicating a grammatical possessor) times (a plural marker or lack of it) times (a rare -é marker to indicate a possessor with elided possessed argument followed by another optional plural marker, or nothing) and THEN they get a case ending
19:05:55 <b_jonas> and that's if they aren't numerals
19:08:57 <b_jonas> the bad news is that numerals are theoretically an open class, new numerals can be invented; the good news is that numerals are practically a closed class, it's almost impossible to invent a new numeral other than just prefixing an existing numeral with more words, because most numeral meanings that you may want to say are already invented, so I think pretty much the only way you can invent a new one is
19:09:03 <b_jonas> (1) have a president ask how much is a "brazillion" and have this leaked, (2) invent a swearword, which is an open class becuase you can use anything as a swearword, then use that swearword frequently including as an intensifier, then use that swearword as a numeral because you can get away breaking most grammar with swearwords once they're so common that they're used as an intensifier
19:11:10 <esolangs> [[Bitbot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85024&oldid=84824 * Toxinite * (+237)
19:12:34 <b_jonas> and all this only works because numerals don't share any recognizable endings; I believe even with the power of swearwords you can't create a new verb that doesn't end in -Vl or -z or -Vd (V meaning any vowel) or -ik or one of the few more obscure ending and isn't an obvious compound of a well-known verb.
19:14:40 <b_jonas> and there are further restrictions for most of those verb endings, so in practice most entirely new verbs, such as ones taken from English tech or science terminology, end in -ol/-el/-öl
19:16:39 <b_jonas> on the plus side, once you understand those rules, it's easy to create verbs: if you have basically any word, regardless part of speech, and mangled its phonology enough to be valid in Hungarian, you can pretty much slap -ol/-el/-öl and get a fine verb, unless that happens to badly clash with some other word
19:18:50 <b_jonas> for making a new noun/adjective, you barely even need an ending, just massage the word to match phonological rules, possibly change the final vowel if it ends in a vowel, and you have a noun/adjective, again unless it badly clashes with an existing word so it would cause ambiguity
19:21:29 <b_jonas> for words ending in a vowel, ending in -o or -ö is absolutely banned, change it to -ó or -ö; ending in -u or -ü is banned for new words, change it to -ú or -ű; ending in -á or -é or -í should usually be avoided and changed to -a or -e or -í but not completely forbidden, so only half of the vowels are available, but basically any consonant
19:22:22 <b_jonas> s/to -ó or -ö/to -ó or -ő/
19:28:47 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85025&oldid=85013 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43)
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20:21:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85048&oldid=84963 * Dominicentek * (+15) /* I */
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21:17:16 <esolangs> [[Category:Prototype-based paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85065&oldid=84904 * PolySaken * (+39)
21:19:57 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85066&oldid=85064 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
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21:22:56 <esolangs> [[Category:Educational]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+139) Created page with "==Educational Languages== These languages are designed for educational purposes, such as for teaching, or learning through experimentation."
21:23:45 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85069&oldid=85067 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External resources */
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21:43:08 <esolangs> [[Clart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85073&oldid=85072 * PolySaken * (+1) /* Functions */
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23:23:44 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85074&oldid=85035 * Oshaboy * (+529) Added another C-INTERCAL truth machine
23:30:01 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the difference betwen a "paucity" and a "scarcity"?
23:30:01 <fungot> b_jonas: i think that lshort tutorial is the best programmer who is still arround. :p
23:48:12 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85075&oldid=85071 * PixelatedStarfish * (+656) /* Tobysil */
23:48:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85076&oldid=85075 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Restrictions */
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23:51:53 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85081&oldid=85080 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3) /* Quine */
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