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00:05:22 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85618&oldid=85543 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Grammar */
00:06:41 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85619&oldid=85618 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Grammar */
00:08:28 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85620&oldid=85619 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar */
00:12:59 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85621&oldid=85620 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar */
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02:30:53 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85622&oldid=85621 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Grammar */
02:32:34 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85623&oldid=85622 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16)
02:33:48 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85624&oldid=85623 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10)
02:36:48 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85625&oldid=85624 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The grid */
02:45:59 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85626&oldid=85625 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* Restrictions */
02:46:26 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85627&oldid=85626 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Permitted */
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05:42:31 <zzo38> Why doesn't Wikipedia use data templates for comparison tables? Entering the tables directly makes it much more difficult to edit, I think.
05:50:26 <Corbin> Cannot wait for Wikifunctions to be a thing.
05:50:42 <imode> wikifunctions?
05:51:26 <Corbin> The official name for "Abstract Wikipedia". The core idea is to use Wikidata to fill in templates for many different pages.
05:56:31 <zzo38> I meant just using the standard template feature, but that can work too I suppose
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07:49:04 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_arithmetic#Arithmetic_undefinability
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07:49:21 <riv> I didn't expect posts theorem to come up here, very interesting
07:49:47 <riv> I recently studied the 'uniform' halting problem and how a uniform halting oracle is stronger than a halting oracle
07:49:55 <riv> which is I guess a special case of posts theorem
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07:52:54 <riv> people in #math keep talking about godels theorem, in particular the idea that the godel sentence is 'true' [in fuzzy terms] but unprovable
07:53:00 <riv> and its making me doubt things
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07:53:35 <riv> im not sure why the topic keeps coming up
07:54:02 <riv> but it seems kind of like nonsense. you can adjoin G or you can adjoin ~G..
07:54:27 <riv> i thought there was no standard model of arithmetic but I need to read more on true arithmetic
07:56:19 <shachaf> What is the uniform halting problem?
07:57:02 <shachaf> It's maybe kind of nonsense but you can kind of see what they're getting at too, right?
07:58:01 <riv> I understand it but i don't like it
07:58:39 <riv> uniform halting problem is "does this turing machine halt on all inputs"
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08:00:14 <riv> a halting oracle can't construct this
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08:01:03 <shachaf> Makes sense.
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11:22:26 <esolangs> [[1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85628&oldid=85616 * AmNow * (+0) modified commands
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12:11:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oshaboy * uploaded "[[File:Truth machine StegFuck.png]]"
12:12:09 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85630&oldid=85354 * Oshaboy * (+56) Added StegFuck
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12:34:05 <esolangs> [[Decision shrub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85631&oldid=79114 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* See also */ m
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13:07:53 <esolangs> [[Fumble]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85632&oldid=47167 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Example programs */ Cat
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13:16:49 <wib_jonas> fungot, which spelling is correct in English, "flamingos" or "flamingoes"?
13:16:49 <fungot> wib_jonas: a few do. at least now atm i'm wondering how would a flex file look for, just a
13:20:13 <fizzie> fungot: Are you trying to write natural language processing code using Flex again?
13:20:14 <fungot> fizzie: they kill each other on what would be the small circle of elites while common lisp would handle reader macros.
13:35:29 <esolangs> [[JBFM7L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85633&oldid=85577 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* External links */ chats
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14:02:31 <esolangs> [[DDDD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85634 * Andrew3335 * (+773) Created page with "'''DDDD''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] whose only data structure is a single [[deque]]. It was created by [[User:Andrew3335]] in 2021 and is intended to be used fo..."
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14:46:23 <esolangs> [[School]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85635&oldid=84797 * AceKiron * (+18)
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15:08:51 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85636 * Rphii * (+5486) created
15:10:06 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85637&oldid=85557 * Rphii * (+56)
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15:15:17 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85638&oldid=85636 * Rphii * (+16) /* Loop, if and invert */ small clarification
15:15:59 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85639&oldid=85638 * Rphii * (+3) /* Loop, if and invert */ grammar
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15:41:20 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85640&oldid=83462 * Oshaboy * (+50)
15:41:39 <esolangs> [[StegFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85641&oldid=85640 * Oshaboy * (+2)
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15:49:49 <esolangs> [[Braincopter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85642&oldid=35650 * Oshaboy * (+107) Halting condition clarification
16:02:03 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85643&oldid=85639 * Rphii * (+4) /* Instructions */
16:04:46 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85644&oldid=85271 * Tomhe * (+138) /* See Also */ categories
16:05:43 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85645&oldid=85643 * Rphii * (+13) clarification
16:06:20 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85646&oldid=85645 * Rphii * (+1) /* Variables */ typo
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16:18:18 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the difference between "deburr" and "dechaff" (verbs)
16:18:18 <fungot> b_jonas: is rfc 1459 the client one?)
16:28:55 <b_jonas> no, 2812 is the client one
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16:36:28 <fizzie> Yeah, 1459 is just "the one", it was all in one for that.
16:51:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85647&oldid=85612 * Rphii * (+14) /* A */ add Ascii
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17:08:31 <riv> hi
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18:01:19 <nakilon> arseniiv was it you with a love to procedural generation? I like this one https://www.reddit.com/r/generative/comments/oc8vud/confined_3d_noise_rotation_on_a_grid/
18:01:28 <nakilon> riv hi
18:02:11 <riv> hey
18:02:16 <riv> did anyone want to talk about uniform halting?
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18:02:56 <nakilon> rfc documents have some standartized format, I wonder if it's possible to process them enough to make some Q/A system for quick referencing via a bot
18:05:41 <nakilon> judging from how google and yandex already provide snippets I guess google could give the answers to questions like "what are the field of Atom item?", "what is BNF of IRCv3 tag?
18:05:44 <nakilon> "
18:06:00 <nakilon> *fields
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18:12:50 <arseniiv> nakilon: strange, interesting
18:14:41 <nakilon> the next cyberpunk movie should have such paintings on the walls
18:14:54 <nakilon> I would buy one... oh with an ability to edit it!
18:15:14 <riv> google is very good
18:15:33 <riv> I sometimes want to use man pages, but i find it so difficult to find what i want to know and i give up and google works better
18:15:44 <riv> I think that all man pages should be processed and searchable by something like google
18:15:50 <riv> locally
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18:28:23 <riv> The proof of rices theorem is surprisingly involved
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18:29:19 <hanif> hi riv. nice to see you're interested in the uniform halting problem (you used to be rain1, right?)
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18:30:00 <riv> yes
18:30:25 <hanif> *still interested
18:30:40 <hanif> are you still following soare's book?
18:31:15 <riv> i haven't studied it since last time,
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18:42:08 <nakilon> man page suck
18:42:16 <nakilon> that's what I learned about linux the first
18:43:33 <nakilon> what you are looking for is either in 1 page long --help, or is undocumented and only one person on the planet knows it but didn't yet write it anywhere
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19:04:17 <nakilon> man pages are btw indexed by google, the sse64 website or something like that
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20:26:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Movesum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85648&oldid=84189 * Bangyen * (+164) /* Are integers signed or unsigned? */
20:34:41 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85649&oldid=85644 * Tomhe * (+0) /* Flipping a whole word */
20:36:50 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85650&oldid=85649 * Tomhe * (+0) /* Segments & Reserve */
20:43:51 <zzo38> I think some programs have their own numbers to indicate cryptographic hash algorithms. (Some programs use names instead of numbers.) I use the multicodec numbers in all of my new stuff. Hopefully, this will allow interoperability with different programs, too.
20:44:18 <riv> how do you expect it to allow interoperability?
20:45:06 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85651&oldid=85650 * Tomhe * (+135) /* Memory - how can we implement variables? */ - better explained
20:45:56 <zzo38> For one thing, with file formats. If a file format uses a number to indicate a hash algorithm, and the multicodec numbers are used, then when new hashes are added, everyone can agree what numbers to use for what hash algorithm. Other thing, if somehow a number needs to be passed from one library or program to another, you do not need to use a translation table.
20:46:02 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85652&oldid=85651 * Tomhe * (+6) /* Output */ typo
20:47:26 <zzo38> Different libraries might have their own names for constants, although if multicodec numbers are used then the values of these constants will match. For example, I have a library with FOSIMP_SHA1, FOSIMP_SHA3_256, and FOSIMP_MD5. FOSIMP_SHA1 is defined as 0x11, and any other program that uses multicodec numbers will (if it supports SHA-1 hashes at all, which it might not) also use 0x11.
20:48:26 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85653&oldid=85652 * Tomhe * (-3) /* Input */
20:49:37 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_arithmetic#Arithmetic_undefinability i am curious to learn about this
20:50:02 <riv> zzo38, why not just use sha256
20:50:15 <riv> and no need to specify which hash. always sha256
20:52:16 <zzo38> riv: For one thing, some things require different hashes. (Specifically, Fossil doesn't use SHA2-256; it uses the three hashes I mentioned.)
20:52:18 <b_jonas> riv: because cryptographic hashes only live for like twelve years usually, so that only works if your software's lifetime is shorter than that
20:52:46 <riv> hmm
20:52:48 <int-e> riv: if truth were definable, then we could find a fixed point of f |-> not True(f), which would satisfy [f] <--> not True(f) <--> not [f].
20:52:55 <riv> :O
20:53:00 <riv> 1 liner!
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20:53:31 <int-e> riv: Well, taking all the machinery of Gödel and others for granted.
20:54:26 <zzo38> (It does not use MD5 to identify anything, but only as an extra verification. Still, for the interfaces which calculate the hashes and identify the algorithm used in hashes that are already computed, it helps to specify these things. Specifically, they are the first argument of the fosimp_hash and fosimp_hash_stream functions, and the last argument of fosimp_set_hash.)
20:55:09 <int-e> riv: still, that's the core proof idea.
20:55:11 <zzo38> Also, the fosimp_hash_stream function allows defining an echo stream. I don't know which (if any) other hashing libraries include such a capability.
20:58:02 <int-e> riv: ret-conned corollary: Since provability is definable, it can't coincide with Truth, hence PA is incomplete. ;-)
20:58:41 <riv> very very nice
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21:37:31 <zzo38> I think that truth may be partially definable, although not entirely.
21:52:30 <riv> truth implies provability
21:52:50 <riv> but i don't really understand this true arithmetic thing
21:53:03 <riv> maybe it's a set that is singled out using second order logic
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22:07:13 <int-e> riv: "truth" is understood with respect to the standard model of PA (which you can construct in your favorite set theory... so it's really not an arbitrary model of PA. The notion /may/ still be relative to the model of set theory... it's confusing.)
22:07:55 <riv> ah/,.
22:08:00 <int-e> riv: And truth (in a fixed model) doesn't imply provability, that's the whole point of incompleteness.
22:08:25 <riv> oh i meant the other way around
22:09:17 <int-e> Ah. That makes more sense (it's soundness of the formal system.)
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22:10:22 <zzo38> I think that provability implies truth, but truth does not imply provability (the truth of some statement might be unprovable or even undefined).
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22:11:51 <zzo38> I had defined true as: if a set S of true statements are assumed to be theorems and from that (and the rest of the system) you can prove X, then X is true.
22:12:26 <zzo38> There may be statements whose truth is unknown or unprovable; just because the previous definition does not make a statement true does not necessarily mean it isn't true; its truth could be undefined instead.
22:15:22 <zzo38> Also, true and false are not necessarily mutually exclusive (although they will be if the system is consistent), since I will define false as: if you have a true statement X and another statement Y, and from X and Y you can prove all well-formed statements, then Y is false.
22:16:05 <zzo38> (Again, whether or not a statement is false might be undecidable or even undefined, just as whether or not a statement is true.)
22:16:50 <zzo38> Does that make sense?
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23:44:37 <esolangs> [[Ascii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85654&oldid=85646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) cats
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←2021-07-01 2021-07-02 2021-07-03→ ↑2021 ↑all