01:18:03 yeah, channels lazily spring into existence when someone joins them, so most channels exist by default 01:18:21 though you might also ask how many freenodes there are right now. the last time I heard about them, there were three. 02:09:14 [[Godencode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85667&oldid=85444 * Plasmath * (+52) fixed errors in code 02:47:23 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhtest. 02:47:34 -!- shikhtest has changed nick to shikhin. 03:43:17 nakilon: can you make the \ruby plugin not print the return value if it's nil, so that you can easily write statements where the output comes from print or similar? 03:44:13 \ruby "nakilon: otherwise we need stupid workarounds like this:"; print("hi"); class M; def inspect; ""; end; end; M.new 03:44:16 hi 03:49:19 [[IRC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85668&oldid=34530 * B jonas * (+140) disambig hatnote 04:01:12 -!- delta23 has joined. 04:12:04 nakilon: also can you put the more recent source code to the github repo? it doesn't seem to have this ruby plugin yet 04:22:30 \ruby system %q(>/proc/1/fd/5 echo 2yUJcT8bEz8w ) 04:22:34 sh: echo: I/O errorfalse 05:02:19 [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85669&oldid=85574 * Spargle * (+37) /* The world's stupidest language. */ 06:51:50 -!- Guest65 has joined. 06:53:02 So are people still using irc here? Very Cool 06:55:21 no, none of the people here are using irc 06:56:02 heh 06:56:32 there are people here? 06:57:13 this channel has people in it. 06:58:08 prove it 06:58:35 So i guess most of them are offline? 07:03:25 I still use IRC, at least. So do other people, I think 07:06:08 -!- Guest65 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 07:09:44 yers 07:09:57 [[Python is Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85670&oldid=85163 * OllyTheFoldy * (+2255) /* Example codes */ 08:18:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 08:21:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:21:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 08:24:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:25:26 `" 08:25:29 1/1:1012) five fucks away from installing ubuntu \ 1123) i'm ten pages in to an ethernet-phy manual and i'm pretty sure the internet is impossible 08:56:48 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:09:56 Is there any keyboards with Hollerith chording? It was a idea I had, disliking touch screens, T9 input, and pushing the numbers until the letters come up that you want; I think that Hollerith chording is better. 09:10:40 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:14:17 -!- hanif has joined. 09:37:48 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:38:41 zzo38: I think there were card punch keyboards that had a few keys that added specific column punches to a character, as the way to access rare characters that aren't on their layout, but they're still ordinary QWERTY layout 09:43:52 for a full hollerith keyboard, I think you'd need something like an alphabetic layout (which exist) with nine letters per row (I don't know if that exists) like number row 0123456789 top row &ABCDEFGHI home row -JKLMNOPQR bottom row /STUVWXYZ and then a space bar, and there are a few modifiers around it like a symbol modifier that adds the 8 hole, and a lower case modifier that modifies the 12 11 10 09:43:58 holes in a weird way, and a meta modifier that adds the 9 hole 09:44:04 and of course some control buttons like one to start on a new card 09:47:07 but I think these don't exist, because by the time most card punches were made, people were already used to the QWERTY and similar layouts, and wanted to type fast, so they made card punches with those layouts 09:51:09 zzo38: wait, this chorded one with 12 keys for the 12 holes does exist: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/oldpunch.html#ekpunch 09:51:22 it was probably used for mostly punching numbers 10:01:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:07:03 b_jonas maybe not print the return if anything was printed? 10:07:42 b_jonas I didn't open source the ruby plugin yet because I'm not sure about its safety yet ) 10:12:01 nakilon: I think not printing nil would be more transparent and less fragile hidden magic, that's how irb and many other interactive interpreters work 10:12:11 found anything? ) what is that proc fd thing? 10:12:42 irb prints nil 10:13:11 nakilon: it's a socket and writing into it seemed to result in at least three apparently different results, including once a "thread error" that originates from your code, though it's possible that the fds of init aren't always numbered the same 10:13:27 oh yeah, irb does print nil 10:13:29 sorry 10:13:58 still, some other interactive interpreters work that way 10:14:06 yeah python probably 10:15:19 but then I don't particular like ruby, so I might be mostly using this to run other commands with eg. \ruby system %q(...) 10:15:33 and I won't say it's handy -- you don't clearly see if the command was ran at all; nil.to_s => "", nil.inspect => "nil" and IRB is inspecting the return value 10:16:07 I think I'll just hide the return value if stdout isn't empty 10:16:24 because usually you might not need both 10:16:24 -!- riv has joined. 10:16:34 whatever you prefer 10:16:47 we can probably work around any of that on our side 10:17:44 does this still react to [wiki:nonsense] ? 10:17:51 thread error 10:17:57 it does 10:18:35 that seems important enough that I should mention it on the wiki 10:18:40 `prefixes 10:18:42 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:18:42 ^prefixes 10:18:43 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ . 10:18:45 perlbot prefixes 10:18:45 b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:19:59 \ruby "LWGlW5uLRaf6" 10:20:08 (deliberate space before, just checking) 10:20:12 \ruby "LWGlW5uLRaf6" 10:21:46 blah [wiki:underload] 10:21:48 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 10:22:03 b_jonas -- the OWASP of IRC 10:22:22 [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85671&oldid=85661 * B jonas * (+168) [wiki: 10:24:01 no, I'm mostly just testing for bot loops and IRC-related exploits. I suspect the supposed container for this \ruby thing has holes, but I'd have to understand how the heck this https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/functions-framework-ruby library works to understand that, I probably won't bother much with that 10:25:52 ^help def 10:25:52 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 10:26:28 ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S 10:26:28 Defined. 10:26:32 ^prefixes 10:26:32 fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 10:31:26 though maybe now that I edit it, I should add > into them 10:31:40 ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S 10:31:40 Defined. 10:31:44 ^prefixes 10:31:44 fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 10:31:47 perlbot prefixes 10:31:47 b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:32:08 perlbot learn prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:32:09 b_jonas: Stored prefixes as fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:32:09 b_jonas: i really like this situation and decided to put the registers into the ram... the other car is for the week/ day/ moment: why the emphasis on math starts to slowly fall away. like in fnord example on an o(1) operation, just like in qbf, you take the result modulo 10. 10:32:54 `/bin/cat /hackenv/bin/prefixes 10:32:55 ​\? prefixes 10:33:01 `? prefixes 10:33:03 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:27 `learn prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:27 b_jonas: is set!'s scope bound to the command after the current character to the topmost a 10:33:30 Learned 'prefixe': prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:34 `prefixes 10:33:36 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:37 `? prefixes 10:33:39 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:42 perlbot prefixes 10:33:43 b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:33:44 ^prefixes 10:33:44 fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 10:34:13 perlbot compose [learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: [fact prefixes]] 10:34:13 b_jonas: Compose failed to find a plugin named: learn 10:34:18 perlbot compose [fact learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: [fact prefixes]] 10:34:18 b_jonas: Stored prefixes as Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:34:25 perlbot prefixes 10:34:25 b_jonas: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 10:34:49 perlbot logs 10:34:49 b_jonas: #esolangs logs are available at https://logs.esolangs.org/ 10:35:51 the tunes log seems to be logging the channel on one of the freenodes 10:36:40 [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85672&oldid=85671 * Nakilon * (+145) added [wiki:...] helper example 10:38:00 [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85673&oldid=85672 * Nakilon * (-1) moved this snippet lower 10:38:14 didn't notice your addition 10:38:38 I should add velik to thelounge highlights 10:39:20 \ruby p 1; 2 10:39:29 1 10:39:41 \ruby 2 10:39:47 2 10:39:48 \ruby "velik" 10:39:52 "velik" 10:40:47 \ruby system %q(openssl rand -base64 18);(1..7).to_a 10:40:54 t8IFt0N+9ok4L6P8nX/jY4mC 10:41:00 \ruby system %q(openssl rand -vase64 18); (1..7).to_a 10:41:03 \reload remote 10:41:04 remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel", "morse", "demorse", "ruby"] 10:41:09 \help ruby 10:41:10 rand: Option unknown option -vase64[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7] 10:41:15 \ruby ; does not print return value if stdout isn't empty; timelimit=10s 10:42:17 Ugh, do we have another bot? 10:42:29 int-e: for now, yes. 10:42:40 Ah, no, velik is known already. 10:42:49 int-e: it's an evalbot so it's possible that nakilon will give up running it quickly 10:42:55 So is perlbot (meaning, lambdabot knows about these two.) 10:43:14 int-e: perlbot is not new, it's just newly joined on #esolangs 10:43:48 perlbot is a more recent addition to lambdabot's ignore list 10:43:49 int-e: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.is] [is] [iis] [@isa] [ic] [ik] [.iq] [iaq] [icke] [ioccc] 10:44:08 ugh, no colon required? 10:47:39 also perlbot is a heavily modified further developed version of buubot3, and buubot3 is a spiritual successor of buubot2, and buubot2 is rather old 10:48:11 int-e: fungot doesn't require a colon either, so I don't think this is worse 10:48:11 b_jonas: really? i'm fnord, iirc. :p at least i'll make a game like this 10:49:16 wait, I thought I exceeded four lines? 10:49:34 b_jonas: you get five, I think. 10:49:41 no I haven't 10:50:54 buubot3 used to be configured to also react to its built-in command names like fact and echo and help, but probably only in his home channel and private message 10:51:33 perlbot only does so in private message apparently 10:52:16 I actually prefer bots that react to their names to ones that only react to short prefixes. more discoverable. 10:52:19 like, you can't do 10:52:22 HackEso: help 10:52:30 you have to find out somewhere that you have to type `help or something 10:53:17 \ruby require 'securerandom'; SecureRandom.base64 10 10:53:23 "ZoDiL+qZ/fjKlg==" 10:53:25 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the prehistoric cult of esoteric programming, promulgation, procurement, and propulsion! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/. 10:53:27 though in jevalbot I got the worst of both worlds: it reacts to its nick but also has such a weird syntax that it's still not discoverable 10:53:56 propulsion? 10:54:16 is it another reactionless drive thing again? 10:54:35 it's when a language really takes off 10:55:05 I'm also running out of words that start with "pro-". 10:55:17 I mean https://xkcd.com/1404/ and https://xkcd.com/955/ 10:56:21 Hmm, I don't remember either of those. 10:56:44 the xkcds or the hype around the original experiments? 10:57:10 both, really 10:57:52 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly was the neutrino one 10:58:13 https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1404:_Quantum_Vacuum_Virtual_Plasma probalby has links for the more recent one 10:58:45 hmm, is there an xkcd for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_anomaly ? 10:59:39 although admittedly the Pioneer anomaly *predates* xkcd 10:59:44 wow, that's a rare thing to say 11:00:58 but of course it is referenced in xkcds: 502 title text, 1547, 1621 11:02:13 hmm no, 1621 is apparently about another anomaly of spacecraft trajectories, fun 11:04:09 \ruby `openssl rand -base64 18` 11:04:13 "ZJAY1xFL9eA5WZf8xHkmfbaP\n" 11:04:31 \ruby puts `openssl rand -base64 18` 11:04:33 nbMuD/e+zrL7MD8YfCVRaYlm 11:09:34 nakilon: is there a way to upload or download data to velik faster than tunneling through the \ruby command and its responses? 11:09:45 possibly one outside of IRC 11:10:13 HackEso and perlbot have web interfaces for this, and HackEso also has the !fetch builtin command 11:10:47 nope, the \ remote executors are all temporary linux machines that start and die immediately 11:11:03 no way, I tested that it can store persistent stuff already 11:11:30 and since I'm running out of money I moved the IRC bot itself to a smaller machine so other bots I run there can make it slower to react on the command too 11:11:41 \ruby system %q(>/tmp/KNg_VCwx0Mf6 echo XzC-o_acVjLC) 11:11:46 true 11:11:55 \ruby system %q(cat /tmp/KNg_VCwx0Mf6) 11:11:58 XzC-o_acVjLC 11:12:11 the file system is persistent 11:12:23 maybe it can download, idk 11:12:24 it might not be guaranteed to presist forever 11:13:05 I'm just wondering, I'm not saying that you have to add a faster method, I just want to know before I start to tunnel larger amounts of data over IRC 11:13:17 \ruby system %q(curl http://whatismyip.akamai.com/) 11:13:21 % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current107.178.231.229 11:14:01 int-e: there's one of those that work without crazy heavy browser script stuff? wow, good to know 11:14:25 indeed 11:15:13 "Depending on the volume of requests, as well as the number of existing function instances, Cloud Functions may assign a request to an existing instance or create a new one. Each instance of a function handles only one concurrent request at a time. " 11:16:05 nakilon: right, so it's just opportunistically persistent. that makes the tunneling even worse since I may have to resend some data 11:16:52 yeah, if you can't fit it in one command 11:17:36 yeah. I'm not going to golf everything down to one IRC line. 11:18:15 -!- delta23 has joined. 11:18:16 maybe I should isolate the network at all for security purpose but I'm lazy to do it yet 11:18:33 wait, there's network access? 11:18:36 that's so abusable 11:18:45 I'll have to upload a botnet then 11:19:10 it requires me to configure the project in some way that operates such terms as "business" and stuff while legally I can't use it like I use it now according to tax services in Russia 11:19:17 oh, that also means I can just upload or download larger data through network 11:19:31 it just doesn't spend too much money so tax services don't give a damn about me yet 11:19:57 I might try that later 11:20:10 though the 10 second time limit makes it a bit inconvenient 11:20:17 b_jonas your botnet will work only 10 seconds minus something 11:20:20 ye 11:20:37 nakilon: that just means I have to send a new command every 10 seconds, but sure 11:20:51 nakilon: and it has network access, so it might be able to send commands to itself 11:21:04 I doubt 11:21:13 though it's hard to connect to IRC in 10 seconds 11:21:13 I mean it definitely can't spin itself 11:21:42 at least to libera, which waits for a timeout on identd, unless I can run an identd in the command 11:21:52 I guess libera will ban it 11:21:59 that too 11:23:37 btw, how to quickly get money other than selling nudes and kidneys? ..D 11:24:40 hm https://cs.stackexchange.com/q/141979 , basically asks if halt(`:;s/pattern/replacement/;t`) where both pattern and replacement are [ab]* is decidable or not 11:24:45 I wish I was a professional in some more demanded job, like cutting grass 11:26:14 nakilon: catch a pokemon, grind its level up, fight every pokemon trainer you meet, they give you money as you win 11:26:29 _Oo 11:26:31 you may have to spend a smaller part of the money on items, but the rest will be profit 11:26:42 or maybe some gold duplication glitch 11:27:30 try to drop your money, wait, pick up money and quickly close the game, your inventory is saved more frequently than the rest of the world so you often get a copy of your money in your inventory and one copy still dropped; 11:27:58 does it work IRL? 11:31:40 in old versions, there was also a different way to duplicate gold, it involved something with letting a monster steal your gold then petrifying them, and somehow for historical reasons the statue stored the amount of gold both as gold and as an object, and you could get both. if you want lots of money, you have to be careful not to try to get more than 2**31 gold, though if you do overflow, the antigold 11:31:46 has particularly useful properties, most importantly having a large negtive weight and thus making your effective carrying capacity almost infinite 11:32:05 it's one of the very few ways to lift an object that's heavier than 1000 11:36:02 -!- hanif has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:37:29 -!- delta23 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:40:44 nakilon: I hope it at least isn't allowed to connect to outbound smtp, because someone attempting to send mail (even if it fails) is the quickest way to get people angry at your service 11:41:31 Reminds me of my favorite bug in a MUD... so, there's money. When you try to pick up more money than you can carry, it'll produce as change the money that you couldn't carry. Now imagine you're overloaded due to another bug... it would produce change corresponding to the amount by which you were overloaded, and give you a negative amount of money, which it conveniently clamped at 0. 11:43:44 int-e: is there one of these no-javascript whatismyip services that work for ipv6? 11:44:33 int-e: um... I don't understand that money thing, your statements are a bit unclear 11:44:46 also, a MUD with weight limit and money that has a weight? weird 11:47:06 is it weird? 11:47:09 * int-e shrugs 11:47:29 no, I probably just played too few MUDs 11:47:37 so I find everything weird 11:47:42 it had banks, so you didn't have to carry all your riches around at all times 11:48:36 int-e: let me guess. if you die, you lose half or all your cash but keep the money in the bank, so you have to find an ATM to deposit and withdraw money often as insurance, and the ATM's interface is very annoying 11:49:23 Normal scenario: You have 1kg capacity left to carry. You pick up 2kg of coins. So that would put you 1kg over the limit. So the code would produce change making up 1kg of coins and leave that in the room. 11:49:54 Bug scenario: You're 1kg over capacity. You pick up 2kg of coins. So the code produced 3kg coins of change and left that in the room 11:50:08 while the -1kg of coins that you'd get in this exchange went poof. 11:51:05 b_jonas: `dig -6 +short myip.opendns.com @resolver1.opendns.com aaaa` works for me. 11:51:18 * int-e is actually simplifying because the real combination of bugs was way too convoluted. 12:02:08 fizzie: wow, one with a name server interface, that's interesting 12:02:58 int-e: ah I see. but it doesn't try to produce different denominations of coins, like silver coins if you can't pick up a whole gold coin or something 12:04:13 -!- Trieste has joined. 12:04:23 yeah, that wouldn't even work with a weight limit, because lower denominations are heavier 12:04:30 or at least relatively heavier 12:04:35 usually 12:05:24 b_jonas: right, it would do this separately for each denomination, actually 12:06:57 now I wonder if there's a currency that has two denominations such that a larger denomination coin or banknote is realtively heavier (in proportion to its nominal value) than a smaller one 12:08:56 ah, there is 12:09:28 the pre-1990 1 HUF aluminium coin was much lighter than the thick and large 2 HUF that's made of normal metals 12:11:08 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_the_Hungarian_forint#People's_Republic_issues_(1949-1989) says the pre-1990 aluminium 1 HUF coin weighs 1.4 g and the pre-1990 2 HUF coin weighs 5.0 g 12:11:19 ah no 12:11:23 only 4.44 g 12:11:40 apparently 5.0 g is the figure of some older coin of 2 HUF denomination 12:11:47 but still it's an example for what I was looking for 12:14:35 though perhaps a heavy coin compared to a lighter banknote might also be an example 12:14:52 or, for that matter, two different coins with the same denomination is sort of a stupid example 12:17:19 The pre-Euro Finnish markka *almost* had that, but not quite: the variant of the 50p coin introduced in 1990 weighed 3.3g, while the 1 FIM coin that stayed current up to 1993 was 6.1g, which is just slightly too light to count. 12:18:37 (They were kind of in the process of making them lighter, but staggered the introduction of new coins.) 12:22:22 Oh, there's an actual example too: between 1977-1982 or so, the new (aluminium) 5p coin was just 0.8g, while the older (aluminium-bronze) 10p coin was a whole 3g. 12:27:16 I think back when the pre-1990 10 and 20 HUF banknotes still existed, even though they were rare because of the pre-1990 10 and 20 HUF coins, the 10 HUF banknote was lighter than the 20 HUF coin 12:28:58 I mean they were both used as money, obviously copies still exist in collections 12:32:57 one thing the MNB managed to do correctly so far is that old forint coins and banknotes can be exchanged in post offices for face value for quite a long time after they're removed from circulation 12:33:20 soviet 1 kopeika was weighting exaclty 1 gramm 12:33:27 same for 2, 3 and 5 12:34:10 -!- hanif has joined. 12:34:26 I think I thought that was the normal way how you replace coins and banknotes, and later I learned that a few years ago when the swedish krona coins and notes got replaced, you could exchange them for only a very short time; I also know that you can't exchange finnish marka anymore 12:34:56 nakilon: "same" as in they weigh exactly 1 gramm, or they weigh exactly 1 gramm per kopek of face value? 12:35:06 per 12:35:40 are they made of ordinary metals? 12:35:52 https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91S7NIA1fhL._SS400_.jpg 12:36:45 that metal color was red, probably had some copper in it, the higher coins were not 12:37:24 these photos show the color better: https://www.amazon.com/USSR-Coins/s?k=USSR+Coins 12:37:41 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ruble#Coins_3 12:38:31 (and yes, ordinary metals) 12:38:49 1 Ruble was cool, the largest and the heaviest coin, but was rare 12:39:44 wikipedia page table fucks up colors 12:43:03 then when Rubles were changed to Grivnyas the 2 kop. coin was of pure aluminium for who knows why for several years 12:43:35 it didn't shine and you could draw dark lines with it like with a pencil, it was awful 12:47:06 nakilon: it's because aluminium became cheap because of industry developments, and it's light so suitable as cash back when people payed more with cash than now because bank cards were rare or nonexistent, while ordinary coin metals like copper/nickel/zinc/tin/manganese/iron didn't become cheaper 12:47:32 in the past, aluminum would have been too expensive for cheap coins 12:47:33 the proportial weight was cool in the way that you could just mix all the 1 2 3 and 5 and the total weight in grams would be equal to its price 12:49:32 I won't call aluminium cheap -- in 90s all the aluminium on streets was stolen and sold, all the rods, all the wires even 12:49:55 nakilon: yes, but the same applies to copper 12:50:14 iron is the only metal cheap enough to avoid that 12:50:24 if some alcoholic gets into your garden he steals all the aluminium wires that were commonly used to wire plants to vertical rods 12:50:36 yes 12:51:25 and even iron can be stolen if there's a large amount together, which happened with railway transformers and cables and railway rails, no matter that it often shocks the thieves 12:52:03 transformers had copper 12:52:07 a lot of bronze statues got stolen 12:52:14 nakilon: yeah, that might the reason 12:52:29 and rails might be worth more than their metal 12:52:52 because they're very standardized so easy to reuse and hard to trace 12:53:00 there is a diggers' hobby to find WW2 tanks and ammunition 12:53:15 the whole tank sells well as an iron 12:53:23 but usually it's only tracks 12:53:33 broken tracks that were abandoned 12:55:09 as for that, you know how people say that cash is untracable? I wonder how long it will stay that way. a lot of cash is handled in vending machines and banks who already inspect all the banknotes in interesting electronic ways to catch counterfeats and remove damaged or old banknotes from circulation. I think from a technical point it would be easy for banks and vending machines to read the unique 12:55:15 serial number from each banknote, so it's only a legal and political question for when banks start to do that for most banknote cash transactions and collect the data to a shared serial database. 12:55:53 and technologically it even gets easier, because once banks do that, new banknotes can be printed with serial numbers in a format that's easier for machines to read, and then more vending machines can read them 12:56:02 not sure about rails -- you can't just meld them together in the way no one would notice -- they are numbered and periodically checked with ultrasound 12:56:40 cash never was untraceable, they are all numbered 12:56:43 I don't really understand the political side, but I think it would be easy to introduce by scope creep: first say that it's supposedly only against things that everyone hates: counterfeits and money laundering. 12:57:14 the trace is just lost when you use cash without a cash register 12:57:39 like... enter some shop and ask them for exchange 12:57:40 -!- hanif has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:58:19 then extend to catch money used for services that are clearly illegal and that I won't name here, then to services that can technically be done legally but most payment providers will ban you for it, then to things that ebay bans, then to trace things that youtube demonetizes you for, then to catch large scale tax evasion in construction industry, then finally to catch small scale tax evasion for 12:58:25 ordinary businesses and individuals. 12:58:39 oh I mean not just cash register but ATMs 12:58:42 nakilon: yes, but you don't need to trace every transaction perfectly, you just need to trace enough of it until it becomes hard to use 12:58:47 cash registers don't scan numbers 12:58:58 yes, ATMs too, not just banks and vending machines 12:59:46 banks are already pushing for people to use these fancy new ATMs where you can insert banknotes and it scans them without manual intervention and pays the money on your bank account, so you can use ATMs in both directions 12:59:55 all this applies to banknotes only, not coins, but that's not a problem 13:01:01 so I think if such large scale tracing isn't done yet, it will be in two decades 13:01:14 and cash will no longer count as untracable 13:01:40 when I tell someone about the data mining and stuff and the persons laughs "no one stole anything from me, ahaha, you are paranoid, I am smart, ahaha" -- I wish I could someone telepathically make that person understand the amount of stupidity I see in them 13:02:21 that said many of the people who mention this usually contrast it with payment methods from bank cards and bank accounts, and cryptocurrency, so they do have a valid point that currently cash is less tracable than other common payment methods 13:02:21 maybe the language needs some words for illiteracy measurement 13:02:55 the virus easily made people switch to card, even me 13:04:29 but they also love to demonstrate in stores: "hey people around me, look! I pay with phone! look I pay with watches!" -- not even understanding that it's absolutely opposite from being handy, and they spend much more time paying in this way than it was using cash because the device battery dies or it's just lagging, etc. 13:07:50 it's important to understand that they don't believe in things not just because they didn't get any true evidence of stuff but purely because of stubbornness because in fact no evidence in the world would change their minds, even if Zukerberg would say "dudes, I was stealing, I was fooling", they would say "we don't give a shit" just because 13:07:50 admitting that they were always wrong would be too butthurting 13:08:14 I just feel to much disgust to this phenomenon 13:08:51 the "pay with phone" thing I don't understand. I carry with me three important items: a wallet of money, a mobile phone, and my home keys. If a pickpocket steals them from me, I'd rather they not steal two at the same time, because I can use the others to ask for help, eg. I can use phone to call my relatives who have a spare key or use money for the same, if money is stolen I go home with keys and grab 13:08:57 spare money or card, so I keep the three separately. paying with phone seems like you put your bank card and your phone in the same place, ready to be stolen together. 13:09:45 (well, in reality it's five important items that I should keep separately, but I simply can't figure out how to keep five things separately and easy to reach and hard to pickpocket, so they just go in four locations) 13:10:02 I realised that people are fools not because they were not told the truth but purely because it's their level of illiteracy and arrogance when even the "I worked for Facebook" argument was absolutely nothing for them 13:10:38 yeah I switched to topic, sorry 13:10:59 the topic of tracking the people is just what annoys me 13:11:08 *fact of 13:12:21 I really wish I could solve this, but there seems to be no easy solution. if I keep anything really important in my backpack, I'm afraid it gets stolen. if I keep anything in my shirt or coat, I'll misplace it. that leaves my jeans and a small belt loop bag. jean back pockets are limited: most things would get damaged and/or would be inconvenient to sit on, so I only store one of the five things there. 13:12:27 that leaves a small bag and two front pockets for four items. 13:12:46 perhaps I should try to get a second belt loop bag. I have worn such for a compact camera occasionally. 13:13:02 when they say "no one stole from me anything" they are smiling like if the demonstrating own illiteracy was something to be proud of 13:13:53 and they don't even care if there is a one person like you who is disgusted because all other people around that they are carefully filtering believe that everything is ok 13:14:45 what about inside pockets? 13:16:31 nakilon: inside pockets are in the jacket, which I can replace or not wear some day and won't think of moving items from it 13:16:58 I (usually) don't forget moving items when switching jeans 13:17:44 there are freaks who implant credit cards under their skin 13:18:11 there should be anonymous-friendly yet useful implants 13:18:21 I should probably consider storing my keys in my backpack, and storing IDs in my right jean pocket where I normally have the keys 13:18:34 or was it a guy who implanted a metro ticket 13:21:04 in the apartments where I live people are taught to use the same device to open their house doors and enter the metro 13:22:18 while the metro (subway, whatever) was ALWAYS known to be stealing the data -- the WiFi ALWAYS had the broken certificates and mobile devices tell you that ut NO ONE cares and millions of people use the wifi every day 13:23:26 even after articles where dudes have sniffed the wifi traffic to see that there are data flying around that tracks every wifi user with such attributes like phone number, estimated age, estimated salary, estimated home and job locations, education level, etc. 13:25:00 and to see that they are tracking this it wasn't even needed to hack their databases -- it's only what was leaking to the wifi lan; the metro tracks every wifi user about where he lives, works, studies, what's his family status, etc. -- it was all discovered and no one still cares 13:26:23 people are still using the Mosgortrans Wifi that is in metro and buses, not caring at all when the device says "dude the certificates are invalid", and so the Mosgortrans that is already exposed several times to track the data clearly can read all the traffic but no one cares 13:28:48 so now this company is partnering with companies who build new apartments -- they are now offering the way to pay for metro with the keys, so no metro doesn't need to estimate your location -- they have your personal data directly, knowing which flat you own, your full identity 13:31:48 this is a sample sniffed packed https://dpaste.org/YBED/slim 13:31:59 *packet 13:32:41 here is another view https://tproger.ru/s3/uploads/2018/04/hash.jpg 13:33:08 they even track if you are married 13:37:47 the articles even explain that there are standard hacking utilities that you can use in the way that you just stalk the person from one wagon to another until you identify his MAC or you can make it faster by filtering by model/laptop model that is also tracked 13:38:32 when you identify the person the metro wifi gives you this person's phone number and all this datamined data 13:38:46 metro/bus 13:42:21 did anyone make any conclusions when these articles were published on the most popular IT-related website of the country that everyone knows? nope. people are absolutely okay with that come company tracks everything about them -- they just say "so what? how can they use it against me? they can't take money from my pocket, ahaha" and not even the 13:42:21 fact that they read all their traffic, i.e. email, etc., makes any sense to them 14:08:18 -!- hanif has joined. 14:12:19 -!- imode has joined. 14:31:20 -!- immibis has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:31:55 -!- immibis has joined. 14:50:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:59:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:11:51 [[BIT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85674&oldid=77824 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+85) Add implementation from website, fix cats 15:14:42 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:23:54 -!- Trieste_ has joined. 15:24:32 -!- Trieste has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:30:09 should I rename "Esolang categories intersector" into "Esolang cats intersector" 15:33:44 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:37:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:42:14 [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85675&oldid=85669 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */ 15:44:36 [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85676&oldid=85573 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */ 15:51:03 [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85677&oldid=85676 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */ 15:51:50 [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85678&oldid=85675 * Spargle * (+0) /* Links: */ 15:52:05 >hi 15:52:10 ^prefixes 15:52:10 fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 15:52:19 `? prefixes 15:52:21 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 15:52:34 perlbot prefixes 15:52:35 oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 15:54:22 *sigh* 15:54:28 `? prefixe 15:54:30 prefixes Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 15:54:38 `forget prefixe 15:54:40 Forget what? 15:57:53 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:58:37 `le/rn prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 15:58:37 oerjan: but bsmnt_bot isn't throttled, but not enough to put pics with an alpha value, there's problems with every language is interpreted 15:58:41 Relearned 'prefixes': Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 15:59:30 ^def prefixes ul (fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S 15:59:30 Defined. 15:59:40 -!- Noisytoot has joined. 15:59:40 ^prefixes 15:59:40 fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 15:59:46 `prefixes 15:59:48 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:00:46 ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \.)S 16:00:46 Defined. 16:00:52 ^prefixes 16:00:52 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 16:01:07 perlbot prefixes 16:01:07 oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or >, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:04:50 perlbot learn prefixes are Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:04:50 oerjan: ratty is the name ' nine inch nails crowd?' as ' sine' should pronounce ' char'...? 16:04:51 oerjan: Stored prefixes as Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:05:08 perlbot prefixes 16:05:08 oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:05:20 \.help 16:05:37 oh wait 16:05:41 *sigh* 16:05:44 .help 16:06:07 * FireFly can't tell if it's supposed to be an escaped dot or verbatim backslash dot 16:06:12 perlbot prefixes 16:06:12 oerjan: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:06:17 ^prefixes 16:06:17 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [, bfbot =, velik \. 16:06:22 `prefixes 16:06:25 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:07:29 argh 16:08:38 ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.)S 16:08:38 Defined. 16:08:50 ok now i hope they are identical. 16:10:35 ^prefixes 16:10:35 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. 16:12:58 It sure is a good thing we've got balanced parentheses in prefixes. 16:13:52 FireFly: it's a backslash, the dot ends the sentence 16:13:56 \help 16:13:56 available commands: ["rasel", "morse", "demorse", "ruby"]; usage help: \help 16:14:38 oerjan: oh, it was under prefixes, not prefixe? sorry 16:15:19 oerjan: oh, it was under prefixes, not prefixe? sorry 16:15:23 `? rules of wisdom 16:15:25 unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation 16:16:04 b_jonas: ...oh 16:16:36 \ruby system %q(ls /tmp; df); # FireFly: this is the latest command, an evaluator 16:16:49 thread error 16:17:21 \ruby system %q(ls /tmp; df); # FireFly: this is the latest command, an evaluator 16:17:31 thread error 16:17:35 * FireFly pets velik 16:17:40 it's okay 16:20:00 fizzie: i lobbied for jconn to get that prefix for that precise reason 16:20:32 before that i used bf. it was painful. 16:20:53 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:38:48 -!- hanif has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:38:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BurningApparatus * New user account 16:51:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:52:42 -!- mnrmnaugh has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:02:43 [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85679&oldid=63932 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+203) re-add fizzbuzz example that was accidentally deleted 17:03:30 [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85680&oldid=85679 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+4) make the fizzbuzz section header a link like the others 17:14:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:39:35 [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85681&oldid=63537 * Traveller * (+461) Reflection on a property formerly held to be true. 17:41:38 b_jonas: Yes, but were there any such keyboards used for purposes other than punching holes in cards? (When you have constrainted space and not many keys, it might be helpful) 17:42:03 [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85682&oldid=79210 * Traveller * (+66) 17:42:35 [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85683&oldid=85682 * Traveller * (+1) 17:46:58 (Just, I don't really like the existing methods of text entry on telephone keypads, and I think that Hollerith chording would be better way of entering text on numeric keypads. If you have a full keyboard that is better, but that won't work when you do not have a full keyboard) 17:51:25 Hollerith chording? 17:52:28 [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85684&oldid=85681 * Traveller * (+230) 17:53:51 riv: Meaning a numeric keypad (and another key for a space); if you push a number by itself then it makes a number, but if you push in combination with - & or other numbers then you can make alphabets/punctuations. 17:54:08 how does it work? 17:56:34 riv: The possible combinations are shown in the picture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png So, pushing 0 and 2 together makes "T", and pushing & and 1 together makes "A". 17:57:25 [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85685&oldid=85683 * Traveller * (+117) 17:58:28 I see 17:58:39 this would take a long time to learn to use 17:58:46 and could be bad fpr fingers 18:01:06 I dislike the more common methods though (such as pushing the numbers until it comes up the letters that you want and waiting for delays or explicitly skipping) 18:01:29 yeah 18:06:12 I also dislike touch screen 18:33:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:15:14 cal 7 1776 19:15:18 oops 19:15:47 so wrong window :P 19:16:39 * oerjan is playing with doomsdays and was checking if he got it right 19:39:36 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:05:17 [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85686&oldid=85678 * Spargle * (-84) /* Links: */ 20:05:59 [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85687&oldid=85677 * Spargle * (-84) /* Links: */ 20:06:52 [[Common-S3C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85688&oldid=85687 * Spargle * (-4) /* The world's stupidest language. */ 20:17:07 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: brb). 20:23:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 20:36:31 -!- riv has joined. 20:47:30 [[S3C (sssc)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85689&oldid=85686 * Spargle * (-4) /* The world's stupidest language. */ 21:29:32 https://i.postimg.cc/q4nqtWRt/s-l1600.jpg zzo38 21:49:55 looks like scrambled rubik's cude 21:49:57 *b 21:54:42 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skelozard * New user account 21:58:16 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=85690&oldid=85659 * Skelozard * (+146) /* Introductions */ 21:58:21 [[Talk:PokBattle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=85691 * Skelozard * (+205) Created page with "I've created a [https://github.com/Educorreia932/PokeBattle Python interpreter] for PokBattle. I tried to stay as close as possible to the original specification and it has..." 22:19:12 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:32:04 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:01:39 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 23:02:26 oh great. ISP is doing weird things again. for like 20 minutes the whole internet connection was down. now it's mostly down, but a few ranges of hosts like this webchat are reachable. 23:07:12 perlbot eval "or at least I think it's reachable,"; "pong" 23:07:14 wib_jonas: pong 🇺🇸 23:12:56 direct IRC connections and most other hosts still don't work 23:23:26 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:26:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:40:28 -!- b_jonas has joined. 23:40:58 well I think now it's working, after power cycling the cable modem router the second time 23:41:55 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).