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00:27:34 <nakilon> my conclusion after spending several hours on trying to draw neat graphs of several thousand edges: 1. graphviz really sucks in layouting 2. wolfram layouts well but the console tool is a pain without a notebook 3. wolfram mathematica costs money
00:29:29 <nakilon> there is also an option 4. wolfram cloud -- but I didn't try it, already very bored by trying to stylize the graph in terminal _<>
00:31:26 <nakilon> also thinking about IRC bot connected to Wolfram stuff for arbitrary purposes
00:32:54 <nakilon> the problem of REPL is you can't just run untrusted code on temporary machine, because you can activate the free license only on two machines
00:33:41 <nakilon> the most possible option I see is to compile functions and deploy on temp machines, should work on some ubuntu image I suppose
00:34:01 <nakilon> there is also a Wolfram Cloud Functions but with quotas
00:34:54 <nakilon> Wolfram Alpha is also quoted
00:35:07 <nakilon> but 200 requests per day is enough for fun
00:35:53 <nakilon> I had Wolfram Alpha IRC bot many years ago, they even had a neat documentation
00:39:21 <nakilon> this all is no neat https://reference.wolfram.com/language/tutorial/GraphDrawing.html
00:51:31 <oerjan> > let l=0:map(succ.maximum.zipWith(+)l.reverse)(tail.inits$l) in l
00:51:32 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
00:53:15 <oerjan> except for the type checking on first try, that was neat.
00:54:59 <oerjan> going to need the index anyhow
00:59:04 <zzo38> I had wanted to draw a ZZT world map, which doesn't have several thousand edges, but probably not more than few hundred. However, in that case also is needed the direction (north, south, east, west), and then there will also be passages, too. Also some links might be different when going back the other way, and might need multiple pages. A similar thing can be applicable for text adventure games.
01:01:01 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+maximum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in l
01:01:03 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,9,14,20,27,35,44,54,65,77,90,104,119,135,152,170,189,209,230,252,275,...
01:01:29 <oerjan> hm that's not what i calculated in my head
01:02:05 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in l
01:02:06 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118,...
01:03:11 <zzo38> This is the code I have: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/freezzt.ui/artifact/ceca87315080ce9a Maybe you know how to make it better; I don't know
01:03:22 <oerjan> @oeis 0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118
01:03:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A003314 Binary entropy function: a(1)=0; for n > 1, a(n) = ...
01:03:22 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118,...
01:05:49 <nakilon> zzo38 in mathematica you can only set the NSWE direction when plotting directed graphs
01:05:59 <nakilon> probably the same in graphviz
01:06:40 <nakilon> and you don't be able to tweak specific branches anyway, like putting one to the left, another one to the right
01:07:31 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87388&oldid=87387 * Heptor * (+50)
01:07:48 <nakilon> graphviz is so kludgy, they provide the utility "unflatten" that creates fake nodes to make dot layouting less ugly
01:08:27 <oerjan> that function came up when i tried to find out if the two bisections algorithm i and nakilon suggested to b_jonas yesterday is optimal
01:08:30 <zzo38> I would not want to use Mathematica
01:09:45 <oerjan> it's a measure of the optimal efficiency of a binary search tree
01:11:48 <oerjan> and it turns out that with a bit of balancing tweak, that is the efficiency of the double bisection search for n=3,4,5,7,9,10 files at least
01:12:19 <oerjan> er wait was 9 included
01:15:14 <oerjan> 6,8,9 are one off that function but still optimal for the problem i think
01:15:24 <oerjan> and i haven't finished thinking about 11 yet.
01:18:50 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2)|n<-[3..]]
01:19:04 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2)|n<-[3..11]]
01:20:26 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2-1)|n<-[3..11]]
01:22:08 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87389&oldid=87388 * Heptor * (+11386) i gave up
01:23:20 <oerjan> @oeis 5,16,34,60,94,137,189,251
01:24:16 <oerjan> @oeis 5,16,34,59,94,136,188,251,321
01:25:10 <oerjan> maybe no one has considered that
01:25:39 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87390&oldid=87389 * Heptor * (-11221) /* Implementations */
01:26:40 <nakilon> I did some contribution to OEIS
01:26:47 <nakilon> when was solving PE many years ago
01:27:13 <nakilon> I've added a file with first numbers and something else
01:27:48 <oerjan> i did add a proof to OEIS once that i made after a discussion on SE code golf
01:28:00 <oerjan> but that's my only contribution
01:28:41 <oerjan> i don't remember what sequence it was
01:30:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87391 * Ch44d * (+377) Hello!
01:32:58 <oerjan> i found it in my mailbox http://oeis.org/A187924
01:35:54 <nakilon> heh this random '7' in #293 29999999999997999999999999999999293
01:41:18 <oerjan> curious. a lot of the others have random 8s but those look too similar to 9s
01:43:30 <oerjan> i think this happens because to get a number with the right digit sum as small as possible you want lots of 9s
01:44:26 <oerjan> and usually you just need to change a few to 8s to get it just right
01:44:44 <oerjan> but for that one number that didn't work somehow
02:22:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: thanks (re bisecting for two changes)
02:41:05 <nakilon> on this file http://sprunge.us/jGGXAz I do the $ tail -n +2 < file | jq . | less
02:41:46 <nakilon> then I use / to search, and if you search for "61" you'll find many matches
02:42:07 <nakilon> but if you search for "player" you'll find only one: "mounted_player_id": -1,
02:42:32 <nakilon> while there is at least one more match: "player": {
02:45:41 <nakilon> I feel like it's some bug either in less or in it used with jq
02:46:41 <nakilon> the thing is that the context around "mounted_player_id" is so similar that when I press 'n' and 'N' the screen does not change
02:46:48 <nakilon> so I supposed there is no other match found
02:51:35 <int-e> a(4649) = 9949859999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...
02:51:41 <int-e> ...99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999994649 requires quite a lot of changes (mainly because 10^7 = 1 (mod 4649))
02:52:58 <int-e> for the same reason they're concentrated in the leading 7 digits of the number
03:08:03 <int-e> oh, that number has digit sum 4648, oops
03:09:46 <int-e> So, correction: a(4649) = 29289699999[500x9]999994649
03:45:42 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87392 * Ch44d * (+73) Claim page and add interpreter
03:46:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87393&oldid=87391 * Ch44d * (+20) add dual tape
03:54:44 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87394 * Ch44d * (+76) Claim page and add interpreter
03:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87395&oldid=87393 * Ch44d * (+23) add dual tape ez
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04:31:09 <oerjan> looking at today's girl genius, i cannot help guessing who this is https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030604 https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040908
04:31:42 <oerjan> . o O ( it's either that, or othar. )
04:37:37 <int-e> they have not even published today's GG properly yet
04:37:49 <int-e> (Yes I know I can edit the URL)
04:38:02 <oerjan> er i didn't link today's.
04:38:53 <oerjan> well i don't know what you mean i clicked my usual link to go there and it worked.
04:39:27 <int-e> I go to my bookmark and check the '>' link
04:42:34 <int-e> which apparently is lagging behind the "today's comic" stuff. weird
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05:38:20 <nakilon> there should be a pastebin for colorized text
05:38:45 <nakilon> I always install the colorised log plugin to Jenkins
05:39:10 <nakilon> I wish I paste text that has been formatted with colors or boldness
05:41:05 <nakilon> actually maybe some pastebins accept standard terminal colors via API
05:41:30 <nakilon> so it would be possible to make some proxy website, maybe even in pure JS
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06:53:56 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGuN8WIGNc at some point in history for no reason at all, someone flipped all the letters
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10:23:42 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+301) add later document later
10:24:08 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87397&oldid=87396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+41)
10:24:19 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87398&oldid=87397 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1)
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10:32:57 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87399&oldid=87398 * YamTokTpaFa * (+289) Can anyone help me translate blogs
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11:00:41 <Melvar> <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGuN8WIGNc at some point in history for no reason at all, someone flipped all the letters – I’m pretty sure the reason for that was that during the transition from writing RTL to writing LTR they always kept the letters facing in the direction of writing.
11:04:52 <Melvar> (IIRC at some point sometimes they’d write switching direction every line (boustrophedon), so that you didn’t have to scan back to get to the start of the next line, and in that case also the letters would face in the direction of writing for each individual line.)
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11:42:22 <nakilon> imagine writing books in befunge in all 4 letters
11:43:42 <nakilon> and sometimes executing "p" command to fill the gaps for future plot twists and past misteries
13:14:09 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87400&oldid=87399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Links */ Cat
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13:43:34 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87402&oldid=87394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Cat
13:45:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87403&oldid=87299 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Add 5 languages
13:47:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Esolang:Gdelfuck]] to [[Gdelfuck]]: Remove NS
13:47:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Esolang talk:Gdelfuck]] to [[Talk:Gdelfuck]]: Remove NS
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13:57:32 <esolangs> [[ZZZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87408&oldid=41112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Link to seemingly broken compiler (still better than nothing)
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14:24:15 <b_jonas> Melvar: that seems to happen only some of the time. almost all Chinese and Japanese characters are written exactly the same orientation whether it's written left to right or right to left, horizontally or vertically. I believe the only counterexamples are some punctuation like dot and comma and parenthesis and quotation signs, as well as a few that change in horizontal vs vertical orientation but don't
14:24:21 <b_jonas> flip, namely the dakuten and possibly the Japanese vertical repeat mark
14:24:59 <b_jonas> no style of digits flip in left to right latin/cyrillic text versus right to left hebrew/arabic/persian text
14:25:55 <b_jonas> some punctuation like parenthesis and question mark do sometimes flip between these, but they are also used differently in different languages
14:26:03 <Melvar> Yes, I was replying here to the video which is about the development of the Latin alphabet – this flipping happed specifically in one of its precursors.
14:27:21 <b_jonas> that said, it is true that boustrophedon inscriptions in phoenician script did flip letters, see eg. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki?curid=66649930
14:27:44 <b_jonas> but wasn't Phoenician written left to right from the start, when it wasn't boustrophedon?
14:28:40 <b_jonas> here'sa better flipping boustrophedon example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gortys_law_inscription.jpg
14:28:40 <Melvar> Wikipedia says Phoenician was RTL.
14:28:51 <b_jonas> this one is actually in greek script
14:31:15 <b_jonas> yeah, it looks like you're right, phoenician was written right to left, and later flipped to greek
14:31:31 <Melvar> So, my understanding is Phoenician started mostly RTL, some boustrophedon, then when Greeks adapted their alphabet, they also used boustrophedon in stone inscriptions, but eventually settled into using mostly LTR as time went on, which resulted in the final form of the letters being flipped from how they started out in Phoenician.
14:32:04 <b_jonas> this wasn't obvious to me because I know very little about phoenician, other than through how the greek and hebrew scripts were developed from it (arabic/persian was too, but I know very little about that)
14:32:13 <int-e> Hmm does this have to do with engraving script in stone?
14:33:08 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't really know, but I don't see why engraving in stone vs slate or pottery would make a difference
14:33:39 <b_jonas> you can write into slate fast enough that it matters that you cover the letters with your hand
14:33:40 <int-e> I'm picturing chisel and hammer, so the writing hand becomes the left one
14:33:51 <Melvar> I have no clue as to the pressures of stone inscription specifically, except for an unsubstantiated claim I heard once that a right-handed person has an easier time carving RTL.
14:34:35 <int-e> And you're probably better off working towards the blank end... so swinging from the right means pushing to the left is preferable? I don't know, obviously.
14:35:06 <Melvar> (Which like, makes some amount of sense, exactly that way, but no citation attached.)
14:37:01 <Melvar> (Whereas writing in ink I would guess that, well, writing LTR with your right hand keeps your hand from smudging what you just wrote.)
14:37:46 <int-e> yeah, LTR or TTB make for ink
14:38:12 <b_jonas> oh by the way, as for ancient stuff. did you know that historically lions lived in southern europe, present turkey, the middle east, some of north africa, and india, but later got driven out from most of those places by humans? so ancient rome actually experienced lions first hand a lot, which is how they managed to spread the completely misguided idea that the lion is the king of the animals, which
14:38:18 <b_jonas> then got into children's fables. it's a pity, because the tiger is a much more worthy candidate for the same slot, only the ancient romans didn't meet tigers much, they only heard about them like many of those mythical beasts like phoenixes and elephants
14:41:12 <b_jonas> basically people kept believing the misguided ideas of ancient philosophers like Aristotle and Pliny the Elder up until the enlightenment, and I don't know who established the lion as the king of the animals, but that false idea got into the culture
14:41:34 <b_jonas> the Lionking movie should be based on tigers, not lions
14:41:47 <b_jonas> so do a large number of fables about animals
14:41:57 <Melvar> I’ve heard the amaZulu also consider the lion to be king, which is kind of relevant to Lion King.
14:42:02 <b_jonas> the sayings about lion's dens with footprints going in but not out
14:42:30 <b_jonas> Melvar: isn't that also because they weren't exposed to tigers, since tigers only lived in east Asia?
14:42:31 <Corbin> I hear that some languages around that time confused cats and dogs, even; our modern taxonomy didn't exist back then.
14:42:45 <int-e> what about lion-eating poets though
14:43:14 <Melvar> I mean, I presume they were not exposed to tigers either, yes.
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15:30:42 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1242.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:38:57 <esolangs> [[K]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87409&oldid=51812 * Corbin * (+2) Improve disambiguation text; link to WP's article. This mirrors the link atop [[Q]].
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19:45:10 <Corbin> Ugh, I'm starting to think esoterically. I'm thinking about how to define Boolean algebras, and it's very tempting to try to use just NAND since it's a universal basis.
19:45:47 <Corbin> It's not bad, exactly, but I know that I'll just eventually define a richer basis later for speed. Maybe this is one of those "premature optimization" situations of which the legends speak.
19:47:54 <Corbin> Oh hey, WP's already got the entire discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_axioms_for_Boolean_algebra
19:54:26 <riv> definitely use NAND
19:55:01 <riv> those axioms are really interesting
19:55:12 <riv> I think the robbins one was unproved until computers did it
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20:19:45 <oerjan> b_jonas: the romans were definitely exposed to elephants. rather brutally so. see: punic wars.
20:20:56 <oerjan> (wikipedia has had a lot of punic war articles featured lately)
20:21:46 <oerjan> by phonecians, no less
20:37:23 <oerjan> heh, that wikipedia logic article cites wolfram
20:53:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, elephant is probably a bad example
20:56:34 <oerjan> i found the basis sizes given in that article so inconsistent that I made a talk page comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Minimal_axioms_for_Boolean_algebra#1-basis_or_2-basis?
20:57:20 <oerjan> (hm some of your browser might leave out the final ? i guess)
23:50:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87410&oldid=87395 * Ch44d * (+21) add category
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