> 1630199087 953185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fmbalbuena14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87717 5* 03Fmbalbuena 5* (+26) 10Created page with "What now print("Say bye")" < 1630199252 222795 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630202309 416484 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630202625 421093 :Koen_!~Koen@76.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630212532 374924 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630212879 621543 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1630213529 238060 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1630218827 513736 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8c29:d071:7a1c:6a79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630219007 229950 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630219668 236126 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630219943 297501 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630221461 209832 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630221657 222546 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630221722 702737 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630222016 735181 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630222862 537346 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630223107 503171 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630223578 766774 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs immibis :realname < 1630224349 623694 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630224570 620739 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1630226111 470303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smileyface14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87718&oldid=87650 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+130) 10/* Example programs: */ > 1630226163 938897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smileyface14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87719&oldid=87718 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+24) 10 < 1630226789 280260 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630227041 226684 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630229149 601376 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630229844 52066 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630230985 62885 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630232501 517319 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630232767 498895 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630233845 49530 :Koen_!~Koen@76.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630234388 232879 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630234659 257412 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1630234878 947165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh400/Bijection between reals and the powerset of naturals14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87720 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+3621) 10Created page with "In this article we explain how to establish a bijection between the set of real numbers and the powerset of natural numbers. == The existence of a bijection == If two sets h..." > 1630234908 8043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87721&oldid=82351 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+74) 10 > 1630234926 279375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87722&oldid=87721 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+53) 10/* Articles */ > 1630235942 834192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mara 5* 10New user account > 1630236754 65510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87723&oldid=87710 5* 03Mara 5* (+187) 10/* Introductions */ < 1630237552 733972 :Koen_!~Koen@76.161.9.109.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630237578 931935 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630241033 718423 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Pineal Gland Optics < 1630244364 766294 :sebbu2!~sebbu@user/sebbu JOIN #esolangs sebbu :sebbu < 1630244530 332991 :sebbu!~sebbu@user/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1630244622 285257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mara14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87724 5* 03Mara 5* (+5) 10Created page with "Hello" > 1630244635 678316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mara14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87725&oldid=87724 5* 03Mara 5* (+6) 10 > 1630244658 434772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mara14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87726&oldid=87725 5* 03Mara 5* (+6) 10 > 1630244705 566732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mara14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87727&oldid=87726 5* 03Mara 5* (+15) 10/* Hello */ < 1630246025 496709 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a discussion of homoiconicity elsewhere recently, and we couldn’t find any decent definition that wasn’t just “the language supports data structures expressive enough to represent an AST of itself”. < 1630246073 390734 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not just that you can represent the AST in the language < 1630246090 562106 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :you also need a quotation operator that lets you get the AST in the same syntax as the language itself < 1630246126 528778 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. in lisp '(+ 1 1) for (+ 1 1) whereas in c some horrible (struct bintree){ blah blah } thing for 1+1 is not homoiconic < 1630246144 428814 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :So “homoiconic” means “has a quote operator”? < 1630246151 25057 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? < 1630246205 919378 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: It means that the language hosts an embedding of its own syntax, interpreted as its own type: a type of program literals. < 1630246241 519181 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't need to be typed < 1630246250 624734 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since a quote operator implies being able to represent the AST, “AST and quotation operator” is equivalent to just “quotation operator”. < 1630246259 769887 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Many folks also think that the language needs to have an eval() primitive, so that those program literals can be interpreted at runtime. Many languages are flexible enough to implement eval(), but that's optional. < 1630246285 732259 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: It's going to be typed according to the native type theory, even if the language claims to have no type system. Some inputs to eval() won't be legal. < 1630246312 948780 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :> runQ [| 1 + 1 |] < 1630246314 262219 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:7: error: parse error on input ‘|’ < 1630246318 206383 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aw. < 1630246319 887464 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is type systems still a topic of debate < 1630246730 909435 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, when people bring up homoiconicity as a benefit, my impression is that the actually-important things are: a macro system (otherwise manipulating ASTs has limited utility), enough quotation ability to apply the macro system to literal code, and possibly: A simple enough syntax to make manipulating ASTs take few cases, and/or this property I came up with: < 1630246749 999474 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :“all data values in the language are also valid ASTs of the language.” < 1630247012 718991 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Macro systems are not necessary. After all, if ASTs are plain values, then the language's native procedures/functions/etc. should suffice for manipulating them. < 1630247086 531155 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i don't need macros to add two numbers, why would i need macros to merge two ASTs < 1630247090 77572 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I’m saying is not that you need a macro system to manipulate ASTs, I’m saying that manipulating ASTs is not widely useful unless you can splice the resulting AST into your program. < 1630247130 656150 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :why would you need macros for that instead of just functions? < 1630247160 147248 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Languages with multiple forms (expressions, statements, procedures, exports, etc.) might need multiple ways to do that splicing, not just eval(). < 1630247175 793014 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :If your language is purely interpreted, splicing is equivalent to having an eval primitive. < 1630247204 667225 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that depends on what eval means in this context imho < 1630247207 330138 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it’s compiled, “eval” would be a misnomer in my book. < 1630247216 903845 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for me, eval is something that evaluates a string < 1630247258 218012 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can evaluate a string or an AST, but that string or AST can be runtime data. A splice is a compile-time operation if you have a compile time. < 1630247264 240284 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"eval" is just the traditional name. What matters is that it takes AST fragments and evaluates them within a context. When the quotation system has symmetry, then "unquote" is a good name. "splice" is a good description of how some systems work. < 1630247287 326607 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :myname: In E and relatives, eval() can take either an AST or a string; the string is simply parsed to an AST in the latter case. < 1630247559 658668 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell+TemplateHaskell does not provide an interpreter, but a compile-time-only splice operation, which means to run the action in it at compile time and replace the splice with the resulting AST, which is then compiled as though it had been there from the start. < 1630247896 536048 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630248167 497254 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630248820 431196 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: I'd say that that's sufficient, because of a Haskell-specific nit. Go's another language with this nit. In Haskell and Go, expressions given at the REPL are only for a fragment of the language, and the language's semantics are really only defined for entire programs. So even if it feels like we're talking about interpreted concepts, the practical implementations have to be compiled. < 1630249377 51136 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1630249792 802939 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. Can you give an example of such a fragment limitation for ghci? > 1630250184 834804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87728&oldid=84072 5* 03Fmbalbuena 5* (+11) 10 < 1630250427 496359 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630250438 201829 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not convinced that Prolog has a quote operator < 1630250467 996068 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :With GHC 8.10, the REPL seems to humor me if I try to define a module, like with `module Foo where`, but doesn't actually create a new module. Since Haskell doesn't have first-class modules, I wouldn't expect this to be easy. < 1630250488 76353 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that it's homoiconic, but it's more like things are quoted by default and get dequoted in a controlled way at runtime < 1630250602 967875 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think OCaml's repl supports module operations, but they are first-class there < 1630250633 14295 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: To use the parlance of the Haskell Report, the REPL has an environment, and modules each have an environment too. But that's not all that the syntax allows during compilation; it also allows for a module to *export* things from its environment. < 1630250681 572375 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :In general, lots of languages are built this way, where there's an "expression language" on the inside and a "module language" on the outside. < 1630250784 607618 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630250801 112045 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to remember whether Rust lets you declare a module inside a function < 1630250811 143257 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if it does < 1630250834 149970 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OTOH, Rust modules are basically just visibility barriers, so this wouldn't be that useful < 1630251032 83127 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Monte language only allows modules at the beginning of files, but this is entirely because the parser is handwritten and fixing it would be a lot of effort. A Monte module is just a plain old object which happens to implement a simple interface, though. < 1630251070 522440 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630251710 483646 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@37.115.210.35 NICK :Everyone < 1630251759 530 :Everyone!~PinealGla@37.115.210.35 NICK :Everything < 1630251855 50101 :Everything!~PinealGla@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630251869 294726 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630251978 494219 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630252267 526079 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630252879 225014 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630253187 519041 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv > 1630253388 266168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fmbalbuena14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87729&oldid=87717 5* 03Fmbalbuena 5* (-11) 10 < 1630254347 506445 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.240.154 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630254864 862376 :sebbu2!~sebbu@user/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1630255507 502719 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630256972 350719 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630259309 223521 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bah. dkimvalidator.com's result for an esolangs.org email now says "result = pass" in the actual DKIM check, but "DKIM_INVALID - DKIM or DK signature exists, but is not valid" in the SpamAssassin assessment. < 1630261134 673822 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Go has a REPL?) < 1630261293 337652 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :There have been several REPLs. https://github.com/golobby/repl for example. They assemble an entire Go program and call the compiler in the background. < 1630261361 459495 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yes, of course people have written third-party REPL-like things. The discussion just made it sound like there's an official one. < 1630261605 672979 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sorry. FWIW there's no REPL in the Haskell Report either; GHC's REPL is not official. < 1630261939 184428 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I don't like homoiconic languages, but if you want them, you should consider Amicus < 1630261940 364435 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :What would defining a module in a repl even mean? < 1630261989 265440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I personally prefer lisp as if it weren't homoiconic, without a quote operator, and in particular, olvashato has syntax similar to lisp but without a quote operator (or eval) < 1630262050 609379 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630262276 555306 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose it would make sense if your repl were an interface to a persistent environment, rather than holding its own. < 1630262297 667332 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact I'd be satisfied even with a low-level CPU architecture that isn't homoiconic as far as user software goes, as in, user mode software sees data and code as entirely separate things, you can't read or write code, and you can ask a combination of the CPU and the OS to copy/compile code from a data segment to a possibly slightly different CPU-dependent format into a code segment. the hardware and < 1630262303 982475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the OS would still have to know that code is allocated into normal RAM, so that the OS can split ordinary RAM from the same DDR4 RAM chips split into code memory, data memory (and paging tables and whatever system stuff is needed, and possibly some GPU nonsense) < 1630262444 144214 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for macros, they shouldn't be necessary, but the problem is, our template and generic systems are never expressive enough, so in the end there's always something for which we need macros, even if we rarely dirty our hands with them and enclose them all into modules that export well-behaved abstractions < 1630262556 25292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if I do have macros, I want them to not work as manipulating data, because I want macros to run only during compile time, and full capability data manipulation only at runtime, though there'll be some core data manipulation behind them because I want macro and runtime alike to add or less-than small integers. and this is indeed what modern languages do. < 1630262595 576808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"eval" is just the traditional name.` => yeah. python and lua call them something else. < 1630262597 713806 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​"eval"? No such file or directory < 1630262609 500169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we can still call the concept "eval" just fine < 1630262676 947952 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 NICK :Everyone < 1630262711 665768 :Everyone!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630262760 84847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I believe rust lets you do that, but you rarely want to, because anything you declare inside a function you usually can't name from outside the function < 1630262831 956467 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think homoiconic can be helpful for some kind of interpreted programming languages, but when doing compiled programming it is not as good. PostScript has a "executeonly" command to prevent reading/writing a procedure; I don't know if any implementation is capable of automatically optimizing a procedure when executeonly is used. > 1630262869 46271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Pyrotelekinetic 5* 10New user account < 1630263277 864075 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How is "all data values in the language are also valid ASTs of the language"? (I think this is true of XML) < 1630263600 476244 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had Lisp in mind. < 1630263635 733523 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least some of the more basic lisps. < 1630263754 929041 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK. < 1630263990 907673 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :It’s true that it’s not actually “all”, but what I’m getting at is that there’s one data structure that’s used for nearly everything, including to represent nontrivial ASTs. < 1630263993 735554 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630264012 653095 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630264025 669885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: then I still recommend Amicus. there's one data structure that represents code, lists, integers < 1630264055 861574 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In PostScript any object can be executed, although if it is not executable (whether or not it is executable is independent of its type, and it can be changed) then it is just pushed to the operand stack instead (so anything is allowed as a part of a procedure). They are not always inspectable; an operator object can only be executed or compared for equality (so you can check whether or not two operators match) < 1630264067 707539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't tell in advance which one something in the program is supposed to be, you can only observe how it gets used, and the same thing in the program could get reused as more than one of those < 1630264072 767249 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, yes, Amicus does have only one type (numbers) which is also the type of the program. < 1630264077 702551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's all untyped < 1630264256 825269 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, I suppose Amicus is the most homoiconic one < 1630264284 858563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's all untyped < 1630264292 799003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, sorry for the repeat < 1630264320 512050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: not necessarily, some of the low-level CPUs also have just one main memory and you can treat values in them as code, numbers, pointers < 1630264380 880753 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although they don't have data structures, I think < 1630264388 223734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially back in the 6502 days when RAM and CPU were synchronized to a megahertz or two, and caching wasn't a thing yet < 1630264436 124408 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: they have about as many data structures for data and code, so I think it still counts < 1630264454 174377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are 16-bit integers in both cases < 1630264465 317440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, more like 16-bit pointers < 1630264488 761388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well < 1630264502 22534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe z80 would be a better example for that sort of thing < 1630264507 688877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or one of those motorolas < 1630264553 536589 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do know how to do 6502 programming, though < 1630264582 194820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know Amicus programming? nobody wrote more than a few very short example programs for it I think < 1630264608 530661 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not very well, but by reading the documentation I can see how it works < 1630264815 812343 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ > 1630267128 233174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87730&oldid=84403 5* 03Timwi 5* (+315) 10Problem creating account > 1630267142 584943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87731&oldid=71512 5* 03Timwi 5* (+315) 10Problem creating account < 1630267304 357908 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. < 1630267325 379948 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone did manage to create an account just recently, so that's odd. > 1630267359 954533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* 10New user account > 1630267478 819067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87732&oldid=87731 5* 03Timwi 5* (+261) 10/* Problem creating account */ > 1630267492 450380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87733&oldid=87730 5* 03Timwi 5* (+261) 10/* Problem creating account */ < 1630267578 221885 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hrm. No swap, eh? < 1630267586 50422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh just a cut&paste accident, nothing to see here, move on. < 1630267602 628588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Next time it'll be another character. < 1630267677 474634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, I don't know. Maybe Discord (which apparently has a befunge-capable bot?) is important enough to support that way < 1630267724 122667 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For the record, the CAPTCHA program is of the form 9xxxxxxxxx>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ where the x's are base-9 digits (0-8). < 1630267814 529494 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder what discord is doing... is that a quoting mechanism, or is it really stripping backslashs? < 1630267824 680270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's the former you can use \\\ < 1630267926 97720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still haven't figured out how to quote formatting characters on Discord. I even looked at their help pages. < 1630267956 353738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat <<<\\\# < 1630267957 653782 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​\# < 1630267991 452908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I largely pretend that Discord doesn't exist < 1630268064 475669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't. < 1630268098 484287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I also don't think feel like we're required to change our captcha just because some interface to an interpreter doesn't like it < 1630268185 842073 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess \\\ would work (assuming that's what it turns into), though it is a little silly, especially since in both of those cases it's in the bidirectional section, so it'd end up doing five swaps in a row on the left-edge bounce for example. < 1630268195 109780 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Historically we've changed it when it stops working. < 1630268209 993478 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630268223 477896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :next we'll have to change our code to not contain a less than signs followed by a letter (without a space between) just because that one webpage with the J interpreter refuses it saying you can't put HTML tags into your code because XSS or whatever < 1630268240 189036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: see above, my gut reaction was not to bother < 1630268257 919534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if there are a lot of people coming from discord, then sure we can fix it, or add an alternate captcha mechanism that they can use < 1630268260 620955 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630268280 814735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The \\\ idea came later and seemed cute enough to mention. < 1630268287 617828 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could probably just add a "mind the slashes" warning on the page. < 1630268297 489553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :would a \\\ actually work? < 1630268335 121361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I understood fizzie correctly, even \\ would work... on the Befunge side. < 1630268396 360046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No clue about the Discord side; you seem to be the most knowledgable on that front. < 1630268411 429678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: maybe, but I've no idea how or why it even affects backslashes < 1630268422 477866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or how the befunge interpreter reads it or anything > 1630268600 89405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87734&oldid=87723 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* (+139) 10 > 1630268625 255808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Efghij FANTA function.jpg10]]": The FANTA (Fibonacci) function programmed in Efghij, made by JakkOfKlubs < 1630268680 517611 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know any channels about conlanging/conscripting/conworlding? > 1630268682 876832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Efghij14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87736&oldid=81988 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* (+1410) 10- Added FANTA. > 1630268727 236602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Efghij14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87737&oldid=87736 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* (+44) 10- FANTA fix. > 1630268860 864954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Efghij14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87738&oldid=87737 5* 03JakkOfKlubs 5* (+79) 10 < 1630269145 297268 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. On the topic of just warning about slashes, seems that the CAPTCHA help texts (the in-line description and the linked-to [[Special:Captcha/help]] page) aren't easily editable. Unless there's a convenient way to customize localized strings somewhere. And I couldn't do that for all the 74 translations, anyway. < 1630269147 824320 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although AFAICT you can't even get the interface in a different language unless you've managed to create an account already, since we don't have Extension:LanguageSelector installed.) < 1630269235 493840 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, modulo adding ?uselang=X in the URL, I guess. < 1630269371 362137 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I guess all those strings (for the content language) are editable by changing content in the MediaWiki: namespace. Funky. > 1630269759 28845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MediaWiki:Questycaptcha-createaccount14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87739 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+347) 10Warn about backslashes, and also link to the Befunge article. < 1630269977 374106 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630270120 627223 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630270121 151887 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630271163 52949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, we won't translate everything to every language ever < 1630271177 808283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have like a dozen translations of the `welcome < 1630271262 734912 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /hackenv/bin/t*v*u*a* < 1630271265 49937 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: . (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.) < 1630271354 150940 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` grep -Fl welcome.es /hackenv/bin < 1630271355 101801 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :grep: /hackenv/bin: Is a directory < 1630271359 674933 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` grep -Fl welcome.es /hackenv/bin/* < 1630271361 101683 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/hackenv/bin/bienvenido < 1630271367 426917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`bienvenido < 1630271369 142446 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: . (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) < 1630271750 298437 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :According to netsplit.de, there's still an #esoteric on DALnet but with only one user (registered 2021-06-16, topic "chat about anything esoteric"), and none on EFnet. < 1630271895 621638 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, no, it's just a bad search. Yes, the EFnet one seems "right" (if that's the word). < 1630271970 798755 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(35 users and a "promising" topic.) < 1630272074 673818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever joined DALnet. it's not in my IRC config, and that thing goes way back in history < 1630272133 615700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has freenode, which is now three non-networks or something, and the freenode test servers, which only existed for two "short" (as IRC history goes) periods, and mozilla, which existed for a pretty long time until they destroyed it < 1630272328 221053 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to hang out on a DALnet channel or two, but I've even forgotten their names. < 1630272482 262702 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :My "main" IRC log directory has just `auth`, `fizzie` and `nickserv` subdirectories under `dalnet`, all of which have only two files (2005-06.log, 2005-07.log), which I think means at that time I accidentally reconnected to DALnet but did not have any autojoin channels. < 1630272550 715956 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone else had registered my name on DALnet, it would appear from one of those files. < 1630272630 391176 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, ~/archive/backup/older/colin/old2/irclogs/DALnet has a few channel logs as well. < 1630272638 223960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :somehow "b_jonas" isn't a very valuable nick. I could get it almost everywhere. not on github, but I think on github it's an old account that I created at some point and I've no idea how < 1630272699 63095 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"fizzie" is moderately hard to grab, at least in more "mainstream" services. < 1630272754 759421 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only one of the four channel logs have any discussion in them, so I think the other three are IRCnet channels where I accidentally typed /join in the wrong network. < 1630273922 702326 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630275151 400442 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630275935 284482 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1630277295 704479 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630277380 681704 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630277435 768361 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1630277440 543009 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630277836 715630 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :archive/backup/older -- what will be the next .../ prefix? < 1630278254 929827 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have one called "hitachi" because it was a hitachi drive that died > 1630278646 600489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87740&oldid=81545 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (-1) 10removed comma after last adjective in adjective chain < 1630279004 315003 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"colin" is there because it was the hostname of a former computer. < 1630280204 749116 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.82.46.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1630280316 604677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Efghij14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87741&oldid=87738 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10Category