←2021-09-01 2021-09-02 2021-09-03→ ↑2021 ↑all
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01:51:32 <nakilon> hm
01:51:34 <nakilon> [Jump past the matching ] if the cell at the pointer is 0
01:51:34 <nakilon> ]Jump back to the matching [ if the cell at the pointer is nonzero
01:51:34 <j-bot> nakilon: |value error: is
01:51:34 <j-bot> nakilon: | Jump past the matching]if the cell at the pointer is 0
01:52:10 <nakilon> I wonder if ] has to do any check actually or just go back to the [ and [ will do the check
01:52:49 <nakilon> probably only [ has to have a condition
02:00:41 <oerjan> nakilon: yeah you can choose to put the check on only one
02:01:37 <oerjan> if you do check, you should jump to after [ for the second case too
02:02:23 <oerjan> well, can.
02:03:27 <oerjan> reversible brainfuck is similar, except you _must_ check on both and jump past, since the tests are reversed from each other
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04:26:10 <nakilon> hopefully this is it https://i.imgur.com/tEdX7dL.png at least it passes these tests https://dpaste.org/73HP/slim
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05:12:45 <nakilon> $ printf "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++." | ./bin/rasel examples/bf_interpreter.rasel | hexdump -C
05:12:45 <nakilon> 00000000 48 65 6c 6c 6f 20 57 6f 72 6c 64 21 0a |Hello World!.|
05:12:46 <nakilon> hooray
06:03:28 <zzo38> I have a book called "Concrete Mathematics". They mention the operation "mod", and also "mumble" which is the other one (x mumble y = y ceiling(x/y) - x). Should they be called "punk" (according to another suggestion in this book), or do you like mumble? Or is there another name for this?
06:10:39 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87906&oldid=87881 * Nakilon * (+202) /* Computational class */ added link to bf interpreter
06:14:08 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y==0%1 || y * ceiling(x/y) - x == x `rem` y
06:14:10 <lambdabot> error:
06:14:10 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral (Ratio Integer)) arising from a use of ‘ceiling’...
06:14:15 <oerjan> oops
06:14:33 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y==0 || y * ceiling(x%y) - x == x `rem` y
06:14:35 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 9 tests and 3 shrinks):
06:14:35 <lambdabot> 7 3
06:15:12 <oerjan> i guess it's not that.
06:16:16 <oerjan> oh right
06:17:20 <nakilon> what is this @check thing?
06:18:01 <shachaf> It checks whether a proposition is true or false.
06:18:04 <shachaf> v. convenient
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06:18:30 <nakilon> is it a built in haskell tool?
06:19:50 <nakilon> must be something similar in mathematica; but it's cool how it says "after 9 tests..."
06:42:30 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87907&oldid=87648 * Nakilon * (+466) /* Main table */ added RASEL/Brainfuck
07:08:29 <oerjan> nakilon: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck
07:10:18 <esolangs> [[GG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87908 * Hyperdawg * (+74) Created page with "'''GG''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Hyperdawg]]"
07:11:01 <oerjan> nakilon: it's not a theorem prover, but a generator of random test cases
07:11:19 <nakilon> like fuzz testing?
07:11:34 <oerjan> perhaps? i don't know that.
07:12:18 <oerjan> although it also some mechanism for reducing the size of test cases, that's what the "3 shrinks" is about.
07:12:22 <oerjan> *also has
07:13:39 <oerjan> @check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + z
07:13:41 <lambdabot> +++ OK, passed 100 tests.
07:13:54 <oerjan> @check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + (z :: Double)
07:13:56 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 7 shrinks):
07:13:56 <lambdabot> 0.6571961060614686 -0.45461759492755616 -0.11907641039759291
07:14:16 <oerjan> that's IEEE floating point for you :)
07:14:42 <oerjan> (without the :: Double it uses Integer)
07:28:22 <int-e> > let x = 1; y = 2^^(-53); z = y in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z)
07:28:24 <lambdabot> False
07:29:06 <int-e> > let x = 2; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z)
07:29:07 <lambdabot> False
07:29:39 <int-e> > let x = 1; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z)
07:29:40 <lambdabot> False
07:30:06 <int-e> > let x = 1; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z :: Float)
07:30:08 <lambdabot> False
07:32:24 <int-e> So, we learned that associativity is a lie. ;-)
07:32:41 <shachaf> I think we learned that floating-point values are lies.
07:32:42 <int-e> A crude approximation of the real world (tm)
07:33:26 <shachaf> Fuzz testing is a useful tool when you need to check the correctness of a kitten.
07:35:22 <int-e> fungot: what does a smiley have to look like in order to be taken seriuosly? apparently ;-) isn't enough
07:35:23 <fungot> int-e: a module or anything like that) was discussed in this records thread on cll about it
07:36:10 <shachaf> I mean, I don't think there's any doubt that you know what associativity is, and how Float works.
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07:47:16 <int-e> Hmm, do I know that though... addition and multiplication, yes. Division, not so much. I mean I've seen long division and that cute Newton iteration x |-> x(2-ax) for 1/a, and that's about it. Inverse square root... again not so much. Transcendental functions... there's cordic but I'm not convinced it's actually used. No clue what other things there are.
07:50:53 <int-e> > iterate (\x -> x*(2-5*x)) 0.3
07:50:55 <lambdabot> [0.3,0.15,0.1875,0.19921875,0.1999969482421875,0.19999999995343387,0.2,0.2,0...
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07:54:46 <shachaf> Well, I hope you can know how a type works without knowing all the algorithms on that type.
07:55:26 <shachaf> The real test is what you call the bits of the float that aren't the sign bit or the exponent.
07:55:27 <int-e> Sure, I can enjoy a sausage without knowing how it's made.
07:56:44 <int-e> As with many things, there's many levels of understanding here.
07:59:41 <shachaf> I should know how these things are computed.
07:59:54 <shachaf> Man, I don't even know how integer multiplication works, really.
08:00:05 <int-e> I realized I couldn't expand "ulp".
08:00:30 <shachaf> I think I have an OK understanding of carry-lookahead adders now. I could at least think about it and come up with a reasonable one.
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08:04:26 <shachaf> I read a short post that instantly answered all my questions about carry-lookahead adders and so on. It was great.
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08:08:13 <int-e> I'm happy with my fancy monoid
08:09:35 <shachaf> Which one is that, the propagate-generate monoid?
08:14:30 <int-e> it starts with the silly number-appending monoid, (d1,l1) <> (d2,l2) = (d1*b^l2,l1+l2), then integrates addition and carries into it and that'll give you something that computes 2 results (which boil down to either clearing the carry, propagating the carry, or setting a carry, if you focus on the carries alone)
08:15:29 <int-e> (two results: one with incoming carry, and one without)
08:16:07 <int-e> it's really overcomplicated, but it makes sense to me, and as far as me understanding something goes... that's all that matters :P
08:17:47 <int-e> I suppose "generate" corresponds to two possible cases.
08:21:01 <shachaf> "clearing the carry" never happens, I guess.
08:21:56 <int-e> 0+0+c never generates a carry
08:22:09 <shachaf> Oh, uh, right.
08:22:58 <shachaf> The thing that never happens is complement.
08:23:07 <int-e> right, it's monotonic
08:24:28 <shachaf> But nowadays I'm all about consensus things.
08:41:25 <int-e> . o O ( int-e's consensus algorithm: agree to disagree. )
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08:45:03 <wib_jonas> fizzie: just use a 3-D befunge, lay out your code in 2 dimensions (since that already allows arbitrary control flow), and have comments go next to the instructions in the third dimension's direction
08:47:01 <wib_jonas> trefunge it's called
08:48:07 <shachaf> Hmm, I often use this style of comment: "code; // short comment"
08:48:11 <wib_jonas> of course you might want a 3D code editor for that that can view your code in any of the 48 rotated orientations, including rotating the directional instructions appropriately
08:48:21 <shachaf> But then if the comment is longer, I move it to its own line before the code, which feels oddly discontinuous.
08:48:24 <shachaf> What can I do about that?
08:49:53 <int-e> shachaf: use a 21:9 monitor? ;-)
08:50:13 <int-e> (does anyone else miss the 4:3 ones...)
08:50:48 <wib_jonas> int-e: not particularly, but I'd prefer to have 16:10 ones more available
08:52:26 <wib_jonas> they let me put four 30 row terminals in a 2x2 arrangement, or two 35 and two 25 row terminals etc
08:53:43 <wib_jonas> (actually only a 30 and a 29 row one, because I reserve one row for a thin taskbar at the bottom plus the border between the two terminals, and even so I have one pixel of overlap
08:53:45 <wib_jonas> )
08:55:45 <int-e> ooph, there's at least one 32:9 monitor on the market.
08:56:01 <wib_jonas> int-e: with or without touchscreen?
08:57:31 <int-e> without, I think. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9HCJ2V/
08:58:12 <esolangs> [[GG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87909&oldid=87908 * Hyperdawg * (+87)
08:58:56 <esolangs> [[GG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87910&oldid=87909 * Hyperdawg * (+11)
08:59:28 <int-e> I don't get the whole touch screen monitor thing either, not for PCs nor home entertainment.
09:01:37 <oerjan> <int-e> Sure, I can enjoy a sausage without knowing how it's made. <-- i think it's generally acknowledged that it's even easier that way hth
09:02:17 <int-e> oerjan: I thought it was better without spelling that part out
09:03:28 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, without touchscreen it's better, it's just that the extreme ratio made me question that.
09:05:35 <esolangs> [[GG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87911&oldid=87910 * Hyperdawg * (+4)
09:09:00 <oerjan> my joke detection ability is going, i can feel it
09:10:37 <int-e> oerjan: Different topic, does the Geisterdamen language have a name?
09:11:38 <oerjan> hm not that i remember
09:12:20 <Hooloovoo> ghost damn
09:12:27 <int-e> okay
09:13:01 <oerjan> Hooloovoo: ghost dames is a more direct translation
09:13:34 <oerjan> oh wait
09:13:36 <oerjan> ladies
09:13:58 <int-e> Hooloovoo: It's "ladies". (Oh and "dame" actually exists in english, as a counterpart to "knight" in the UK)
09:14:01 <Hooloovoo> yeah, that sounds closer
09:14:26 * Hooloovoo was looking up "damen"
09:14:28 <int-e> Ah, took too long cross-checking things.
09:15:21 <oerjan> although "ghost dames" is a _cognate_ translation, i presume.
09:15:22 <int-e> (I knew that "dame" is one of those honorary titles in the UK, but I didn't know what exactly it corresponds to)
09:16:13 <int-e> ghost damsels <- let's make it worse, shall we
09:16:24 <Hooloovoo> ghost dammit
09:16:26 <oerjan> itym distressful
09:17:02 <int-e> hmmm. They *are* distressed a lot of times, aren't they.
09:17:22 <oerjan> it's the tight corsets, i think
09:18:37 <int-e> ...which ones...
09:20:06 <oerjan> the ones they have to wear to be properly dressed
09:20:25 <Hooloovoo> could you do something with geist as spirit?
09:21:20 <int-e> oerjan: aren't they usually naked in the lower torso area, which is what corsets tend to be made to shape?
09:21:29 <oerjan> Hooloovoo: perhaps, although these ladies happen to be grey in color
09:21:50 <oerjan> int-e: oh. i had somehow forgotten which damsels we were speaking about.
09:21:56 <int-e> Hooloovoo: there's also "geist" as "intellect"
09:21:59 <oerjan> in a compartmented way
09:22:19 <int-e> oerjan: I see
09:22:49 <int-e> Yeah, corsets have been blamed for all the fainting in romance novels.
09:23:05 <int-e> By all accounts they're truly breath-taking.
09:48:04 <fizzie> There was someone with a 32:9 monitor on the XMonad channel asking for advice on how to make it behave like two 16:9 monitors, which makes sense.
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10:19:09 <oerjan> . o O ( did anyone recommend a saw )
10:21:01 <int-e> hey they should support this on the monitor side. give the thing two inputs
10:22:15 <wib_jonas> int-e: the description that you linked to https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9HCJ2V/ explicitly says that they support two inputs
10:22:26 <wib_jonas> "Super ultra-wide 49 inch monitor provides the enhanced productivity thru split screen functions like Picture-by-Picture (PBP), letting you connect to two devices while maintaining their original quality "
10:23:17 <int-e> wib_jonas: oh, do they? sounds interesting (I didn't read)
10:32:21 <fizzie> Yeah, I've heard ultrawides do that. Hmm, I wonder if any support acting as two inputs over a single cable with DisplayPort MST. Because if the motivation is "two devices", that's not exactly needed.
10:33:36 <fizzie> Incidentally, XRandR 1.5 introduced a "monitor" concept that decouples "rectangular regions shown to the user" from "outputs of a GPU", so the client can now define those arbitrarily even if it's "physically" just one output.
10:34:29 <nakilon> would be cool if those monitors could take inputs from two machines
10:35:01 <nakilon> so I could see macos and windows at the same time
10:35:05 <fizzie> They can, that's what wob_jonas was describing.
10:36:36 <wib_jonas> fizzie: did XRandR have to do that to support DRM that sends TV series as encrypted video to the monitor?
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10:38:05 <wib_jonas> also I used my home monitor with inputs from two separate computer, but not displayed at the same time, but switching with a button on the front of the monitor
10:40:25 <fizzie> I don't know what the XRandR monitor motivation was. I think there's been a few monitors where it's "necessary" to merge two physical outputs to a single monitor, for link bandwidth reasons, before things like HDMI 2.1 and DP 1.4 added higher-bandwidth modes, it could have been that.
10:40:40 <fizzie> I do the input-swapping regularly now that WFH is a thing.
10:41:12 <wib_jonas> fizzie: hmm. I thought DVI already solved the bandwidth problem by having a more expensive variant with more pins in the cable
10:41:49 <int-e> people have come up with higher resolutions
10:41:54 <fizzie> If you're referring to single-link vs. dual-link, yes, but then people just kept on increasing both the resolution and the refresh rate.
10:42:04 <fizzie> People want 144 Hz now.
10:42:07 <wib_jonas> fizzie: that's what made me do it, yes.
10:42:19 <fizzie> Because it's apparently necessary for gaming.
10:42:46 <int-e> fizzie: I believe that actually
10:43:12 <fizzie> Well, I believe it depends on the game. ;)
10:43:37 <int-e> shooter stuff... you have up to about two frames of latency (start drawing frame, wait for vsync, wait for it to actually be displayed)
10:44:02 <int-e> assuming the GPU can keep up
10:44:09 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/pg9x4b/fake_3d_billboards/
10:44:10 <fizzie> AIUI, 60, 120, 144 and 240 are the "standard" framerates now. Also, there's those "dynamic framerate" standards.
10:45:44 <fizzie> Regarding swapping inputs, quite handily both of my monitors have four buttons, two of which can be programmed to do a specific action. So I've got them set up so that button 1 on both selects the personal desktop input, and button 2 on both selects the work laptop input.
10:45:45 <int-e> there's also the less significant effect that 120Hz is a nice fit for 24fps movies
10:45:54 <int-e> much better than 60Hz
10:46:11 <nakilon> high fps in shooters isn't this much about latency than about the smoothness
10:46:45 <nakilon> there is no profit from seeing something 5 msec faster if your ping is 50 and human reaction limit around 150
10:46:47 <wib_jonas> fizzie: true,
10:47:28 <nakilon> but high fps helps your brain to understand what's going on and where things are moving and with which speed
10:47:42 <nakilon> instead of being a high framerate slideshow
10:48:21 <wib_jonas> fizzie: that's nice. on my monitor (which I'm going to replace soon), it's press the second button from the right to go from home to work computer, three times to go from work computer to home computer. (it cycles through the four inputs, in the order composite, VGA, DVI, HDMI)
10:49:45 <nakilon> wib_jonas and it takes monitor 2 seconds of black screen to finally switch, I hate it
10:50:02 <fizzie> Actually, there's a slightly curious effect from the work laptop using USB-C DP Alt Mode MST to drive both monitors over a single cable: when the directly connected monitor is switched to some other input, the indirectly connected monitor is not visible to it. So if I want to have both the work and home computers visible simultaneously (not common), I can only do that one way around.
10:51:37 <wib_jonas> the hard part is switching the keyboard actually, not the monitor
10:55:07 <fizzie> Oh, and when I switch from work mode to home mode, if I want to optimize it for speed, I must always switch the "second" monitor first. If I do the "first" monitor first, the second one loses signal and immediately goes to a special no-signal mode, and then those quick-access buttons don't work, but instead all buttons bring up the input selector menu, meaning the switch takes three button
10:55:09 <fizzie> presses (bring up menu, press up/down, press select).
11:11:41 <nakilon> rasel translator translates the helloworld in 80msec and then runs it in 100msec
11:11:57 <nakilon> rasel interpreter interprets in 400msec
11:26:17 <nakilon> btw, noticed it again, on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck it says "Short program printing Hello, World! by primo" and states that its start is shifted by 4 positions
11:26:50 <nakilon> then it says "Currently, the shortest known program printing Hello, World! is written by KSab" but does not say that it needs shifted start too
11:27:04 <nakilon> both translator and interpreter throw the error
11:29:02 <fizzie> ^bf --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+.
11:29:03 <fungot> Hello, World!
11:29:05 <fizzie> ^bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.>>>>+.
11:29:05 <fungot> Hello, World!
11:29:12 <nakilon> his codegolf stackexchnage post also doesn't mention it
11:29:53 <fizzie> (FTR, fungot's tape is a loop.)
11:29:53 <fungot> fizzie: i mean,
11:30:13 <fizzie> fungot: ...you mean what?
11:30:13 <fungot> fizzie: and i don't care about the result.
11:30:21 <fizzie> Such a grumpy bot.
11:34:46 <wib_jonas> typical. measuring speed without caring about whether the code they're timing actualy does the correct result.
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13:11:26 <wib_jonas> oerjan re `@check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + (z :: Double)`, I suggest 0.6+0.3!=0.9 as the staple example because that's true for both 32-bit and 64-bit floats, but we should probably search for an example that's false in even more common floating point types
13:12:05 <wib_jonas> one that doesn't just use loss of precision by adding two numbers of opposite sign or similar tricks
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13:19:35 <oerjan> wib_jonas: ok, although the main purpose of my command was to demonstrate @check, and only secondarily to demonstrate floats.
13:21:17 <wib_jonas> sure, but this is a question that I'll have to look for a good answer for anyway
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14:06:28 <wib_jonas> apparently 1 + 2/3 != 5/3 is another example that works with float32 or float64
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14:50:12 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87912&oldid=87905 * PixelatedStarfish * (+42) /* Syntax */
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18:11:09 <fizzie> Hmm, spam email with "Subject: esolangs". That's not too common.
18:11:46 <fizzie> Apparently it's meant for "the CEO", however.
18:11:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: did you receive it at an email address at the domain esolangs.org ?
18:12:06 <fizzie> Yep. But there's not too much of those.
18:12:13 <fizzie> It was sent to webmaster@ on that domain.
18:12:52 <b_jonas> yeah, I've sent emails that start with "Dear $websitename,"
18:15:04 <fizzie> Allegedly an "Hongwei Ltd" is attempting to register "esolangs" as their .cn domain name and "internet keyword", but the diligent research of the guy who sent the email (a Service & Operations Manager at "China Registry (Head Office)") has revealed our "company name or trademark" is in conflict, and they want to confirm whether that's our business partner in China.
18:15:16 <fizzie> I think I got an identical one few months back as well.
18:16:25 <fizzie> The most prominent "Hongwei Ltd" would appear to be Hongwei Technologies Limited, which "manufactures and sells polyester differential fibers primarily to the yarn and textile manufacturers located in the southern People's Republic of China". But perhaps they're branching to the lucrative esoteric programming language business.
18:18:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, and among the most common types of spam I receive to my main email address are the ones that try to claim that the mail server has stopped receiving (or will stop receiving) email to my mailbox and I have to confirm my personal data and/or password to make sure I receive further emails, and those emails often mention the domain name of the email address in the subject. plus of course I get
18:18:53 <b_jonas> spam about "Google lottery" to my gmail.com address, but that latter probably only counts for half credit.
18:20:07 <fizzie> I sometimes report the "Google lottery" ones through some internal channels, just for the sake of form. I get them on my non-Gmail address though.
18:20:24 <fizzie> Not very recently, I think.
18:22:19 <fizzie> I think the most common broad category of spam I get are (at least superficially) suppliers of various kinds of things for manufacturing. Like, just looking at the last few subject lines, there's "Re: Mould supplier", "Re: Both Liquid Crystal and Vacuum glass Technology", "Re: Leather products Supplies good quotation", "Re: Cooper wire mesh" and "Re: Stainless steel sintered explosion-proof net".
18:22:42 <fizzie> ("Cooper" was my own typo, it was in fact "Copper" in the email.)
18:24:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think the only ones I've reported are (1) spam in the name of Paypal, (2) bots in twitch chat that try to sell twitch subs, and (3) the paper spam that threatens to cut some utility (electricity maybe) if you don't pay some money with the deadline being the day it was taped to the entrance
18:24:37 <fizzie> And "hair bundles", whatever that is.
18:25:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: "esolang" isn't such a bad brand name for a new synthetic textile material though
18:25:41 <b_jonas> it sort of sounds chemical and synthetic, so I think it might work
18:27:52 <b_jonas> wait, "mould supplier"? but isn't "mould" an alternate spelling for the other meaning of "mold", the that you don't want to supply as a product because it's a generally harmful fungus, as opposed to a shaped template for materials that you shape by melting?
18:28:39 <b_jonas> (well, not necessarily melting, it can also harden chemically a bit of time after you mix it from its components, that's how you shape silicones because they don't melt)
18:31:43 <b_jonas> you're supposed to use the hair bundlesare for hair lengthening in your Real Fast Hair Salon I think
18:33:38 <fizzie> Apparently "mould" *can* be used for the other meaning of mold as well, as in the thing used for casting.
18:35:08 <b_jonas> can it? let me check my Oxford
18:36:15 <b_jonas> yes it can
18:36:27 <b_jonas> that's even the first meaning of "mould" in the order the Oxford gives them
18:36:47 <b_jonas> the second is the fungi, the third (and last) is "soft loose earth"
18:38:35 <keegan> did someone say fungi
18:38:57 <b_jonas> yes
18:39:07 <b_jonas> befungi
18:39:39 <fizzie> Have I ranted about my electricity supplier yet? I feel like ranting about my electricity supplier.
18:39:54 <fizzie> They have a "smart" meter they can read remotely, and it came supplied with an IHD (in-home display) with CAD (consumer access device) facilities, meaning it can do wifi and talk MQTT to a broker for pseudo-real-time electricity usage data. Which is all well and good.
18:40:15 <fizzie> But, the endpoint it deigns to talk MQTT to is hardcoded in the device, and requires a (valid, signed-by-a-trusted-CA) TLS server certificate, so the only way to actually make *use* of that feature is to register for the Samsung SmartThings cloud service, which it will then upload usage data to, from which you're then supposed to consume it with an app.
18:41:49 <keegan> blah
18:42:50 <fizzie> I think I read from somewhere that the regulations say the supplier must help the customer in pairing any device into the HAN (the Zigbee thing the actual meter uses to talk to the IHD) as long as it's a certified device, but from some forum conversations (a) they don't actually do that, and anyway (b) nobody seems to be making reasonably "open" yet certified devices. And anyway, I *have* a
18:42:52 <fizzie> device, which even knows how to export the data. It just doesn't want to export it to its nominal owner.
18:43:28 <fizzie> (Another thing I read is that I technically own the IHD, it's not one of those cases where I'm just renting it.)
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19:01:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: a lot of us have the power meters outside the home, so much more people can gain physical access to it than me or the owners. anyone in the house, and anyone who can get in the house door, which is much less well guarded than the apartment doors. as of now, people can read the total consumption from an LCD on it only when they are physically present (or if they leave a hidden camera somewhere in
19:01:15 <b_jonas> the cupboard I guess). that's much less of a security risk. if this was a smart device and anyone who physically walks up to it could download data to it, that would be much worse.
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19:02:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: and yes, that means people can turn off electricity in my apartment by flipping a switch if they walk up there, but that's a feature for safety in case of fire or gas leaks. otherwise they'd have to cut a wire or something.
19:03:16 <b_jonas> the actual downside is that people who walk there can vandalize the tamper seal, but then people can vandalize a lot of things everywhere and in general it's hard to protect from that
19:04:08 <b_jonas> so I wonder how you'd imagine that only the owner can pair their device to the power meter and download the data
19:12:43 <fizzie> You need (cryptographic) keys from the supplier to pair a device with the meter, or something along those lines.
19:13:59 <fizzie> The meter is in fact not inside the flat here, it's out there in a cupboard in the corridor. Anyone living in the building can go and borrow the key, if for example they need to read it.
19:14:15 <fizzie> I mean, the physical key to the cupboard.
19:14:54 <fizzie> Which has the meters for everyone on this floor, and I think it's the same key for at least a group of floors, based on how it's marked.
19:15:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: also isn't it like, the meter already must communicate with the provider, that's why they're installing it; and the provider must already communicate with you because they're sending you bills; so why set up a third connection when these two must already work and they can just forward you the data at not much extra cost
19:15:40 <fizzie> They download the data at a much lower resolution than what the meter can provide to the IHD.
19:16:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: I've seen such physical keys. the locks often go wrong, or just nobody bothers to lock the cupboard, plus they're the numbered kind of key that anyone can buy if they just know a small integer, or buy the whole set and try each of them, or open the cupboard without the key. for this apartment, I haven't ever seen this cupboard locked.
19:16:23 <int-e> fungot: do you like augmenting paths?
19:16:24 <fungot> int-e: don't you mean the spec bloats the grammar, whereas the normal windows mzscheme uses normal windows libraries. what it seems like
19:17:05 <fizzie> I do in fact collect daily usage data from the supplier, by crawling it from their entirely undocumented GraphQL endpoint that their fancy client-side web app uses to render a chart.
19:17:14 <b_jonas> hehe
19:17:51 <b_jonas> do you also have a cheap camera and led light in front of the display, light it up once an hour, take a photo, and read the number automatically?
19:18:11 <fizzie> I have thought about doing that, yes.
19:18:47 <b_jonas> hehe
19:19:20 <b_jonas> and you also thought of just installing your own meter, one per every inner circuit breaker, inside the house, but found that they're horribly expensive because they're priced for industrial applications
19:20:10 <fizzie> It's not that I'd really *need* the high-resolution data, I'm mostly just curious about the bottom-line power usage of some devices and I feel like it'd be a fun way to measure that, to just collect samples of the "instant" energy use (which has a resolution in the order of some seconds) with and without the device plugged in / turned on, and then do some statistics.
19:21:03 <b_jonas> yeah
19:21:26 <b_jonas> except of course that's hard because some of your other devices, especially the fridge, can just start consuming more or less power at any time
19:22:05 <fizzie> Yes, that's the "statistics" part, I think if I did collect enough samples it should be possible to cluster the numbers and see how the "baseline" power usage changes.
19:22:23 <b_jonas> yeah
19:22:31 <b_jonas> the computers can also vary their power usage a lot
19:26:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, I have the IHD unit plugged to a computer, because it's powered via USB, and there was already a computer next to it anyway, so plugging the USB cable to one of the computer's otherwise unused USB ports avoids having one less AC/DC adapter.
19:27:19 <fizzie> Someone had opened one up and said the data lines of the USB port are not connected to anything, but that there's some places on the PCB that *could* be populated, so potentially it could act as a USB device during development or something.
19:28:27 <fizzie> Hmm, "avoids having one less" is probably not right.
19:29:01 <fizzie> I think I meant either "avoids needing one more" or "allows having one less", but mixed them up wrong.
19:32:22 <b_jonas> "avoids having one less AC/DC adapter." => yeah, but some computers are willing to supply only much less power on their USB ports than designated fast mobile phone chargers.
19:33:11 <b_jonas> re "meant either", or "avoids having one less AC/DC adapter remaining"
19:33:28 <b_jonas> :-)
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20:46:48 <nakilon> speaking about chinese and esoteric, just found this page https://github.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/blob/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md#L56
20:48:35 <nakilon> though it feels like this guy translates all kinds of the "awesome lists" to chinese to then serve on a website
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20:50:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: that would be a useful service
20:50:13 <nakilon> yeah, direct replica of https://github.com/angrykoala/awesome-esolangs
20:50:51 <b_jonas> especially if they attribute the original somewhere
20:51:00 <nakilon> I don't see the original
20:51:08 <nakilon> I mean the attribution
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20:52:47 <nakilon> especially funny to see "Logo used with permission of David Morgan-Mar"
20:52:56 <nakilon> translated
20:54:07 <b_jonas> nakilon: it does say '<div class="github-widget" data-repo="angrykoala/awesome-esolangs"></div>' which points to the original source
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20:54:35 <b_jonas> that sounds like some github feature\
20:54:42 <b_jonas> I mean it has github in its name
20:55:12 <nakilon> where do you this div?
20:55:16 <nakilon> &do you see
20:55:32 <b_jonas> in the raw content of the file https://raw.githubusercontent.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md
20:55:46 <b_jonas> that's the raw of https://github.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/blob/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md#L56
20:56:58 <b_jonas> but with all the client-time scripting that goes on here, I'm not sure if that results in some link or something in the rendered interface
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20:58:40 <nakilon> I guess it's left in the source code by a mistake or a note for the future content update, but it does not render
20:59:41 <nakilon> oh, no, it actually renders here https://asmcn.icopy.site/awesome/awesome-esolangs/
21:00:17 <b_jonas> where in that?
21:01:19 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/F5nlROo.png
21:02:08 <b_jonas> nakilon: I see, thanks
21:02:17 <b_jonas> great
21:02:25 <b_jonas> then I approve of this translation thing
21:02:45 <nakilon> gotta check what other embedding formats github provides -- might be useful
21:09:01 <nakilon> got no response from shinh about rasel (
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21:35:42 <b_jonas> wow, the libretto of Zauberflöte has a lot of different translations to hungarian, and they all render Sarastro's aria "O Isis und Osiris" quite differently
21:36:49 <b_jonas> (for search purposes: the libretto was written by Emanuel Shikaneder)
21:40:04 <b_jonas> the one I've hear dthe most is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJPqMwMIbc “Ó, Isis és Osiris, járjon bölcs szellemed e pár előtt! Hogy a veszéllyel szembeszálljon, adjatok nékik rá erőt! Sikerrel járjon majd a próba – ám ha az út halálos volna, bátrak jutalma nékik jár, fogadd be őket, égi pár!”
21:42:09 <b_jonas> https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris,_Isis,_itt_e_p%C3%A1rnak says “Osiris, Isis, itt e párnak ó égi lelket adjatok! Ti álltok őrt a vándor útján, melletük is ti álljatok! Amerre vándorútjuk elmegy, nyíljanak égi rózsakelyhek, s ha életük útja véget ér, fonjatok nékik szent babért!”
21:43:42 <b_jonas> https://mek.oszk.hu/14500/14584/14584.htm says the same
21:44:16 <b_jonas> but there's even a translation that doesn't even mention Isis and Osiris
21:45:24 <b_jonas> and no, it's not a socialist system censure either that doesn't mention any religion
21:45:35 <b_jonas> it just says something like "o gods in heaven" or something
21:46:49 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUZ0tfG7tNo has Székely Mihály singing that second translation by the way
21:49:21 <b_jonas> or maybe that third one is just confusion, translating a different part of the lyrics? I'm trying to find out
21:50:35 <b_jonas> maybe these are the only two translations?
21:51:13 <b_jonas> the second one seems to have been translated by Harsányi Zsolt a long time ago
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21:54:46 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qE88dtLHPQ is Kovács Kolos singing the first translation (“Ó, Isis és Osiris, járjon bölcs szellemed”), which is thus probably actually historically a later translation then the second one
21:55:01 <b_jonas> s/Kovács Kolos/Kováts Kolos/
22:01:02 <b_jonas> that seems more reasonable than what it seemed at first. just two translations, an old one and a modern one
22:01:29 <b_jonas> it's a typical pattern for works this famous. what do you think, fungot?
22:01:29 <fungot> b_jonas: what a strange way :p). can i just use texinfo. does anyone here have a link please? :)
22:02:28 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, the link is https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383
22:02:28 <fungot> b_jonas: if it doesn't, since i am dealing with squares anyways, it would be a
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22:20:08 <esolangs> [[Mandelbrot set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87913&oldid=68888 * Nakilon * (+97) /* External links */ In Brainfuck written by Erik Bosman.
22:35:02 <nakilon> remember I converted fungot code to png via direct translating to netpbm? I think it might be used as a weird version of QR codes
22:35:02 <fungot> nakilon: strictly business. open source too.
22:36:25 <nakilon> but while QR codes are recovering via error correction to read the photo of text rendered in such way you have to adjust color curves
22:37:18 <nakilon> you can adjust curves automatically until text starts having enough many statistically valid n-grams of the known context
22:40:00 <FireFly> ^style
22:40:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
22:46:49 <nakilon> the idea is that while barcode readers are used to black and white images in the era of smartphones with full color cameras it's a waste of data
22:48:10 <nakilon> yes, it may be post-compressed with some universal compression algorithms but why? if you could just use the full color range
22:49:47 <nakilon> each such pixel is depicted with thousands of pixels on the photo that might be convertable to a 2 bytes deep color channel
22:50:00 <nakilon> or even deeper
22:50:34 <nakilon> so instead of 0, 1 and error correction sums you can adjust some "floats"
22:52:00 <nakilon> omg, thinking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#JAB_code
22:52:31 <nakilon> actual light sensors don't have to be used exactly on human visible spectre
22:53:09 <nakilon> the whole world can be marked in some not visible color range
22:54:08 <nakilon> damn https://www.cognex.com/blogs/industrial-barcode-reader/invisible-barcodes-help-prevent-counterfeit-products
22:58:20 <nakilon> a form of steganography
23:06:21 <nakilon> imagine fungot sending important messages here every day we just don't know how to decypher
23:06:22 <fungot> nakilon: i'm also applying to be haskell apprentice from xerox parc, and vanished. kranz went to curl, rak philbin went on to become a famous phrase.
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23:25:25 <nakilon> also while or worse cameras you had to adjust each channel curve separately today's camera are enough good to only adjust the lightness
23:45:18 <nakilon> ok these guys implemented something like what I said about full color range encoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_barcode - https://github.com/piql/boxing
23:46:02 <nakilon> why don't I invent things before others do it...
23:47:03 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode
23:48:58 <zzo38> Because of the Bob Profit principle, is someone who think of something probably someone else has already done, too
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