< 1630800299 820396 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there should be a fungeoid with subroutines defined as rectangles anywhere so to call them you reach them from any of 4 sides and any row and column within their size; they take the arg and start their work internally from the local (0,0); not sure about the exit < 1630800315 437371 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh maybe you should exit from the directly the other side of where you came from < 1630800453 20876 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference from the befunge is that there is a toroidal wrapping inside the subroutine so you can't exit its bounds unless using a special "return" instruction < 1630800486 835776 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you are free to wrap around without worrying about where exactly you place the subroutine within the whole program < 1630800498 42935 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :just connect them with "wires" of <>v^ < 1630800546 415969 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, that's novel. I think there's some "Befunge with functions" variants, but they have "non-physical" function calls, instead of having to route the execution into the function (and handle returns as well). < 1630800590 362259 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least with the "exit from the opposite side" approach you wouldn't need the usual "push a 'return address' and switch on exit" kind of thing to make a subroutine you can use from more than one place. < 1630800625 999408 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As long as you route each call in from a different direction, anyway. < 1630800803 529767 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can call some small rect subroutine from thousand of places probably if you attach a "bus" to it < 1630800822 724672 :Koen__!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630800850 48203 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :some another block with a plenty of inputs and outputs but calling the "small subroutine" in one place < 1630800969 91191 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then such embedding subroutines into rects allows you to create a address-agnostic drag-n-drop IDE with autotracing < 1630801120 259450 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but then you need a return switch. < 1630801171 498011 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a "bus", you lose information where it was called from, meaning you'll have to push something on the stack and then branch on that something on the way back. < 1630801188 805315 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I used wrong word < 1630801249 247797 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not < 1630801255 128248 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I understand < 1630801292 471183 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah one single output pin address < 1630801417 540589 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can create/resize such buses automatically, while the subroutine knows nothing about it < 1630801597 731576 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a few "subroutine"-like sections in fungot, like the brainfuck-to-bytecode translation, which is used by both `^def foo bf ...` and `^bf ...`, and those are done using that mechanism. The vertical sequences on the rightmost edge of lines 229-231, 235-240 and 262-267 are the three different destinations a program preparation subroutine can return to (the ^bf, ^ul and ^def handlers). < 1630801608 780369 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: or was it netscape?) was beaten up in otaniemi by fellow students. < 1630801704 336873 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, I wonder what the context for that second part is. < 1630801735 810202 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that DEFine and UnLearn or something? < 1630801769 696656 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's ^def for define, and ^bf + ^ul for straight-up immediate execution of brainfuck and Underload, respectively. < 1630801784 736988 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1630801849 339686 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have to say, for large Befunge programs some sort of auto-routing tool would probably be useful. < 1630801893 503021 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Do you think a modern instruction set would actually have Checkout-style instructions? < 1630801927 748160 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not clear to me whether "the things a CPU actually does" make for the best encoding to give a program to a CPU. < 1630801932 954268 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I think Checkout is too extreme, and probably a bad idea because letting the processor infer things saves bandwidth < 1630801938 714643 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compared to out-of-order execution and register renaming and so on. < 1630801955 391975 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :modern instruction sets do have a few Checkout-style instructions; some of them aren't widely used because actually decoding the instruction costs more than the hint saves < 1630801972 797841 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Register renaming is a good example, I guess. A CPU has hundreds of registers, but you want instructions to be compact, so you may not actually want instructions to be able to address all of them. < 1630801996 350788 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few instructions for manual cache control that do genuinely seem to help in practice, though, and that nonetheless aren't widely used < 1630801997 460475 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, a good example of the general thing I'm getting at, not something Checkout-specific. < 1630802026 410621 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, nontemporal read-write is easily worth the cost of decoding if you have an algorithm where it's useful < 1630802032 366105 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* non-temporal read/write < 1630802088 135087 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have test programs which read and write memory in lots of different ways, and nontemporal memory access is the only thing that makes a real difference, due to where the bottlenecks are < 1630802164 509239 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(non-temporal memory operations say "I want to read/write this memory now, but don't subsequently plan to read/write the memory again until after it's fallen out of cache"; in theory they work at cache line granularity, but the API for them reads in smaller chunks and you write several instructions in a row to cover the whole cache line or the part you care about) < 1630802186 619168 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"some sort of auto-routing" this all will break if there are are g and p < 1630802208 37456 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is a pretty common performance pattern to have, whereas if you just use the default caching rules, you have all this data that's crowding things out of the cache and is completely useless < 1630802243 719132 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, even without the extra cache pressure, non-temporal is a little faster at writing to / reading from main memory (but slower for writes/reads that would go to/come from cache, for obvious reasons) < 1630802273 634036 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a hint rather than a promise, too, so there's no undefined behaviour if you actually do need the value earlier than you said you would, just the processor has to slow down a little to find it < 1630802328 434235 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, modern CPUs are so complicated. < 1630802366 558539 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I learned that was sort of surprising is that the common case (?) for instructions that have a register input isn't to read from the register file. < 1630802384 556389 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the permanent register file hardly ever gets used in practice < 1630802389 455325 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least for out-of-order processors, where the input for the instruction was likely just made available. < 1630802397 399462 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So instead most things go through the bypass network, or something. < 1630802399 344197 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, well. In fungot's case, almost all g/p are to the first few rows (because the addresses are shorter), plus the "negative space", so as long as that's kept clear, it'd be fine. < 1630802405 957413 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only when you haven't touched a register for so long that the reorder buffer has forgotten the value, but you surprisingly actually still care about the value < 1630802407 140887 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: or actually, don't. but if you don't use empty in production code < 1630802424 336719 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also in Funge-98 g/p are local to the storage offset, so subroutines that need "local" fungespace storage *could* be position-independent. < 1630802434 615802 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the permanent register file normally isn't actually any slower to read than the reorder buffer, though, although a few processors can't read it twice in the same cycle) < 1630802437 616008 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(You'd just need to reset and restore the storage offset properly.) < 1630802558 289829 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :out-of-order execution bothers me a little because it's mostly just working around bad compilers; the only times it gives an advantage over putting the instructions in the correct order to start with are a) when you want to perform some instructions from inside a loop after it's ended / before it's started (so you'd need to peel a few iterations to reorder manually), or b) when instructions take varying times to execute due to caching effects < 1630802569 672624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b) is a pretty big reason, though < 1630802599 718179 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :b seems like most of the point, doesn't it? < 1630802612 856792 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630802623 872842 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good compilers can't do much about that. < 1630802628 826550 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I'm not sure it actually speeds things up that much in practice < 1630802653 70886 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Mill people claim it doesn't, and you can get away with static scheduling if you're clever. < 1630802656 198878 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure. < 1630802671 507703 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your data is in main memory the reorder buffer won't help because it'll fill up before you get the data you need < 1630802686 43189 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The sequence 0{2u02-u2} sets an arbitrary storage offset (, ), and leaves the previous storage offset on the stack. < 1630802698 223709 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's something like L1 versus L2 cache then it might help, though, the difference between those is only a few cycles < 1630802779 544057 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Apple M1 has a 600-entry reorder buffer or something like that, people say. < 1630802789 397976 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, only when the dependency chains were short enough that you're bound on L2 latency < 1630802790 163107 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But helping with L2/L3 is surely still a big deal. < 1630802840 291292 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone gave this example: "x = *p; y = *q; [process x]; [process y]; result = x + y;" < 1630802847 274264 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm finding it hard to think of an application where a) data is frequently in L2 or L3, but b) you can't just move the read of it earlier, and c) all this somehow forms a dependency chain so that you end up with a loop-carried dependency < 1630802863 493010 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: what are you doing with result? < 1630802881 588628 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get a meaningful slowdown this needs to be in a loop and result needs to influence p or q somehow < 1630802908 922744 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, *p and/or *q need to be in unpredictable cache hierarchy levels < 1630802921 987134 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it certainly seems possible, but this doesn't seem like a common case < 1630802942 5911 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some sort of linked list traversal, perhaps? but why would the list be in varying cache levels? < 1630802993 313848 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't work with local offsets < 1630803000 215267 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just made RASEL to not bother ..D < 1630803030 639206 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever actually used the storage offset, I think it's mostly a bother in at least small-to-medium sized programs like fungot. < 1630803038 641157 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: his syntax is a non-standard extension to receive, though, the empty < 1630803041 734763 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I even have implemented them in my half-done funge-98 interpreter but didn't test it < 1630803091 911311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, non-temporal read? I haven't considered that for cpu caching, probably because neither x86 nor MMIX seems to have it. is it actually worth? for reading files non-temporary it exists (posix_fadvise and madvise), but that's different < 1630803123 117737 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas SSE2 (or SSE1, I don't know which) has a non-temporal write instruction or two < 1630803168 536427 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I more often want to refer to "absolute" addresses from all around the program (as the equivalent of "global variables"), or just very temporary scratch space (which can be anywhere) as opposed to needing "scoped" local storage. Though it might be useful for position-independent self-modifying code too. < 1630803196 544669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think non-temporal read is even reasonably possible, as in, just supporting it would require too much cost for programs that never use it < 1630803201 149723 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MOVNTDQA is the non-temporal read < 1630803205 403069 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SSE4.1, apparently < 1630803222 9415 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although AVX/AVX2 also implement it < 1630803232 31494 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I was just imagining for (i = 0; i < n; i++) { x = a[i]; y = b[i]; ... } < 1630803274 925908 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: you can prefetch x and y in that example < 1630803292 43188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"the permanent register file" => there is a permanent register file? I thought registers always lived on the one temporary register file, and that one is huge because it has to save enough register values to roll back to several different points before instructions that are not yet finalized < 1630803293 663751 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :modern processors have prefetch hints for this, but don't actually need them; they'll notice you're accessing incrementing addresses and pull the next few elements into cache just in case < 1630803307 243308 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's faster to not give the prefetch hints because they're effectively no-ops and tkae some time to decode < 1630803311 266786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why would there be a separate permanent register file? < 1630803327 488433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean maybe for special registers that never go to the normal register file < 1630803339 407650 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in case you haven't used a register for so long that it isn't in the register renamer < 1630803355 519763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those wouldn't be in a file I think, unless they're so useless they're basically never used for anything on a fast path < 1630803361 753211 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the renamer works by changing instructions from "eax" to "internal register 54" or whatever < 1630803381 160547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, if you don't use eax at all for a while, there'll be no instructions to rename, so it needs a permanent file to say "this register is rax" < 1630803402 379208 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could just have a permanent place to store "rax is register 54" but you may as well store the value of rax there, rather than a reference to it, and save one register < 1630803430 362151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :out of order execution => hmm, that's an interesting point. I never thought of it like that, because pentiums were already out when I started to try to understand what x86 even does, so I took out of order execution for granted < 1630803474 78791 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in rasel there is a "problem" about the stack addressing such that the address often has to be adjust by 1, 2, 3 depending on in which place and which "routine" you use it < 1630803483 484611 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the stack size is always different < 1630803521 635723 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :once you add something somewhere in the middle of the routine all the following usings of that stack address should know it's not 1 off < 1630803525 25981 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*now < 1630803528 444169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm still quite sure I don't understand cpus enough to be able to figure out what would make their design better or worse, I'm still at the stage where I mostly try to understand how to use the existing (future high-end x86) cpus well, and a very little of understanding why some of the apparently very odd designs in the cpu may potentially be worth even though it doesn't seem like they can ever < 1630803534 611476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :be < 1630803645 632520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: doesn't out of order execution also help because it allows for more compact code, as in more instructions that can only be coded in-place, or fewer registers that you can name? < 1630803651 275348 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it would be a "common operation" to 1. take the stack address at N and then 2. add N to it before using it in swapn < 1630803740 170420 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh right, yes, I knew that once but I'd forgotten about it < 1630803751 184338 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one big benefit of out-of-order execution is saving on register names in the machine code < 1630803775 915281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it lets you place instructions in the order that uses the fewest register names, rather than needing to look for the most efficient order (which generally involves spreading dependency chains out through the code) < 1630803787 651041 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for reminding me of this, that's a very big reason to have out of order execution < 1630803851 971363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MOVNTDQA => you're right. I'm just stupid then. that is a genuine useful non-temporal read that I absolutely should have known about. < 1630803893 927481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, and more importantly denser code because you can have instructions that reference memory directly; without instruction reordering you'd need a separate load (or prefetch) and arithmetic instruction < 1630803897 838554 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's confusing because the difference between -A and regular instructions is normally alignment < 1630803912 659922 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, MOVNTDQ and MOVNTDQA are both aligned-only, the difference is write versus read < 1630803915 507963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's probably even more important than the register count and stuff < 1630803921 662554 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to read the documentation about three times to figure out what the difference was < 1630803964 381126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and then I guess you'd also need more register names for those reads) < 1630803981 735458 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically any time you load from outside L2 cache, you couldn't combine it with the instruction that uses that load < 1630803992 608024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the CPU couldn't reorder anything between < 1630804005 781761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a real pentium (or other reordering cpu) will reorder instructions between those < 1630804041 627644 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any online dictionary that would immediately give a meaning of MOVNTDQA? because I thought it's some chat abbreviation and when pasting to google I hoped for Ubran Dictionary article but nope ) < 1630804064 828913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's an x86_64 instruction, most of the newer ones have really weird names < 1630804092 139957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: the "Intel 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer's Manual" which you can download from somewhere on intel.com, < 1630804093 449622 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to the extent that you can often figure out how new an instruction is by counting how many letters are in its name and how unpronounceable it is < 1630804098 319405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: as well as the equivalent AMD manual < 1630804108 299453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally use the AMD manual but I have both < 1630804109 564629 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would make a universal definition lookup IRC bot command that would try to ask other channel bots and then if failed go to online dictionaries but this one is an example that I won't know where to lookup at < 1630804122 761351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to use the AMD manual, but now prefer the Intel < 1630804134 294261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: we could add the instructions to our whatisdb I guess < 1630804173 255113 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how large is whatisdb? where is it? < 1630804175 713372 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem here is that it's a proper noun – the name of an instruction – which makes it hard to look up unless you know where it comes from < 1630804177 960465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"figure out how new an instruction is" => lol < 1630804191 286384 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`whatis grep < 1630804193 405835 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :grep(1) - print lines that match patterns \ grep(1p) - search a file for a pattern < 1630804203 906629 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`whatis wisdom < 1630804207 605920 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wisdom(1hackeso) - print random wisdom matching a string \ wisdom(5hackeso) - no description < 1630804218 200972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` wc /hackenv/share/whatis # nakilon: < 1630804219 942196 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​ 14662 97242 753236 /hackenv/share/whatis < 1630804316 142200 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :holy shit, 14k definitions? < 1630804325 631704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: a lot of that is stub entries < 1630804328 152033 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like some little country language < 1630804334 824753 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ok < 1630804342 401727 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last time I downloaded the instruction list, the newest instructions were along the lines of VFNMSUB231PS < 1630804359 855576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are of course counterexamples like ADCX and ANDN and CMPXCHG8B < 1630804386 271039 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're onto the AVX-512 era now, rather than the FMA wars era, but I still don't use AVX-512 because few people have a processor that handles it < 1630804390 870215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think those are just the highly advertised ones, the ones you need for matrix product benchmarks and occasionally for actual matrix products < 1630804419 255584 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well it does solve an actual problem that's hard to solve without processor help < 1630804446 866899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and CVTTPS2DQ which is from SSE2 but looks newer < 1630804448 137636 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it introduces yet more floating point inconsistency between processors, because you have an instruction for an accurate floating-point a * b + c < 1630804452 432285 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol https://i.imgur.com/rc9wr9F.png < 1630804470 182437 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, you need a pretty new FPU to use it < 1630804481 199666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CMPXCHG8B is from pentium < 1630804486 509187 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, do you use the instruction, in the knowledge that older processors won't be able to do the same thing and thus will produce a different result? < 1630804513 909073 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CMPXCHG8B is still only four words, though < 1630804541 420795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, because it only comes up in code that will give different results depending on how the optimizer chooses to optimize it, and to some extent even to how the low-level numeric library chooses to optimize it < 1630804548 29516 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas, say, VPCLMULQDQ is an abbreviation of an eight-word prhase < 1630804548 557443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, s/only/mostly/ < 1630804587 199012 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(great instruction, though, I actually spent some time trying to find it recently because I needed it and it would have been a pain to implement without processor support) < 1630804666 67412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait... VPCLMULQDQ? is that a real instruction? how new is it? < 1630804703 147154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, here it is, PCLMULQDQ < 1630804706 366634 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX (the original PCLMULQDQ was in a little feature set all of its own) < 1630804706 433819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it can't be that new < 1630804709 250777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630804723 51768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, this one I'm fine with not remembering the mnemonic < 1630804737 455852 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the https://stackexchange.com/search?q=what+is+MOVNTDQA is a little bit helpful but still no direct link to the definition < 1630804742 776273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or anything specific about the instruction besides knowing there were a few carry-less multiply instructions < 1630804756 63417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, that can be useful < 1630804790 365210 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and 0 results for "what is VPCLMULQDQ") < 1630804797 940946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unlike the non-temporal loads, which I should have remembered (even if I don't know the mnemonic by heart) < 1630804835 256789 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think there's only one carry-less multiply instruction (two if you count the V- version differently, but the only difference is top-half-unchanged versus zero-extension) < 1630804844 105286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: carry-less multiply, like you need for polynomials over GF(2) < 1630804875 197401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is possible, though isn't there one for a specific GF(2^n) representation too? < 1630804883 219737 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like stackexchange failed to index own entry: https://i.imgur.com/ulTX078.png < 1630804896 351252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep: CRC2 < 1630804900 345471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1630804902 6528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CRC32 < 1630804952 714138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and apparently the AES instructions < 1630804980 282864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you're probably right that PCLMULQDQ is the most general < 1630805002 807909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, there's also GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805016 75894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you ask for eight words? < 1630805036 755258 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, stackexcahnge search can't automatically ignore the "what is" < 1630805038 949418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and GF2P8MULB < 1630805039 810221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow < 1630805048 349778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many instructions < 1630805141 245827 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never heard of GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805144 467732 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where does that one come from? < 1630805156 61731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same intel manual < 1630805165 765822 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, which instruciton set? < 1630805170 177424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me check < 1630805173 259189 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the universal searcher should have a huge list of dictionaries and automatically understand that "VPCLMULQDQ" should be searched in some "dictionary about CPUs" < 1630805207 722459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"CPUID feature falg: GFNI"... I don't know then < 1630805211 145573 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it must be very new, my Intel manual from 2016 doesn't list any instructions starting with G < 1630805224 244893 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a bit surprising, really < 1630805243 64812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also a third one that starts with GF2P8 < 1630805275 226863 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: Wikipedia's search box seems to do a pretty good job of recognising CPU instructions < 1630805280 609677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's not surprising, most new instructions like VGATHERDPD go under V < 1630805282 298245 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :while it can be understood from the 3-gram "MUL" that it's about CPU the GF2P8AFFINEINVQB is really a mess < 1630805291 612351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are several instructions under VG < 1630805294 405092 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it can't find GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805311 768419 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Intel have moved on from V, they're onto E now I think < 1630805330 547627 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, maybe not < 1630805333 702543 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 indeed < 1630805334 651924 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they still start with V? < 1630805372 787300 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :including I haven't heard of this starting with E thing, but I admit I'm not following all the new instructions with a short lag < 1630805387 438714 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, GF2P8 means "GF(2⁸)" < 1630805405 494277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, I'm not familiar with all the AVX512 instructions < 1630805410 448288 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think starting with E is actually the encoding summaries rather than the instruction names, thinking about it < 1630805425 812922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, a particular representation of GF(2**8) < 1630805535 474141 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :appears to be the representation that chooses α such that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 < 1630805550 119416 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and stores field elements as the coefficient of a polynomial in α < 1630805553 984283 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that the usual one? I have a list somewhere < 1630805557 856326 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no idea < 1630805565 773054 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know if it's the IOCCC one < 1630805582 207163 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is I can't remember where < 1630805587 43600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it's in an intel instruction so it can't be a terribly unusual representation < 1630805601 446703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably they wouldn't add something that nobody would use < 1630805619 49571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CRC32 and AES certainly use existing ones < 1630805647 123600 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :found it < 1630805650 173761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean those instructions implement crypto primitives that were used already before they got x86 instructions < 1630805664 307717 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[2,8,[1,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,1]], < 1630805682 721927 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately I also can't remember what format this file is in, but that doesn't look like α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 < 1630805769 393006 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there is such a list, it might be somewhere in https://www.jjj.de/fxt/ < 1630805775 41144 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like that's ordered with the α⁰ coefficient at the start, and α⁸ a the end, so it's α⁸+α⁴+α³+α²+1=0, not quite the same < 1630805791 542881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.math.rwth-aachen.de/~Frank.Luebeck/data/ConwayPol/index.html < 1630805804 223090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(luckily I'd recorded the place I got the file from next to the file itself) < 1630805962 61773 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow the definition of "smallest polynomial" here is weird, it looks for the highest coefficient that differs, then decides which is larger or smaller based on the value of that coefficient xor whether the difference between its exponent and the polynomial's degree is odd or even < 1630805980 861624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume there's a reason for that, because I can't imagine this would be a standard definition for no reason < 1630806059 942563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/all-primpoly.txt lists all polynomials used to compute GF(2**n) for n<=11 < 1630806113 131447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one you mention α⁸+α⁴+α³+α²+1 is apparently the first in the order used in that list < 1630806143 646287 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0, mentioned on the website you linked, doesn't give a finite field < 1630806143 769397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that page is linked from https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/ < 1630806154 981380 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so probably there's a typo on either the website, or in the intel documentation it draws its information form < 1630806163 431264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... < 1630806180 694608 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, it's 8,4,3,2,0 < 1630806211 925935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 is only in the intel manual < 1630806253 526879 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sorry, by "the website you linked" I meant the older link < 1630806270 194238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what odler link? < 1630806271 193453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to the Intel instruction, not to the finite field polynomials < 1630806281 873153 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you didn't < 1630806282 402152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I linked to a website with the intel instruction? < 1630806284 577416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ok < 1630806289 3201 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found it by a web search and assumed you'd linked it to me < 1630806313 492090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/gf2p8mulb < 1630806319 671106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... < 1630806329 262470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assumed you'd just download a later intel or amd manual for it < 1630806332 287057 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could possibly be a PDF extraction error? < 1630806343 100645 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't want to have to keep downloading manuals for this < 1630806346 722225 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have two of them already < 1630806355 266646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's the intel manual that says x**8+x**4+x**3+x+1 < 1630806355 900604 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly the bandwidth doesn't cost much nowadays < 1630806362 803669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um... < 1630806368 883726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I have two of them already" ... but < 1630806373 873949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they're obsolete < 1630806446 182243 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming the old instructions don't change very much < 1630806463 694058 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an old manual will still be good for anything other than newly invented instructions < 1630806482 253386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://xkcd.com/345/ "Hush, I'm coding. You ate yesterday." < 1630806494 539518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't need to buy food, I already bought food twice < 1630806505 515456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, the old instructions rarely change, < 1630806526 81713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if the newly invented one for the GF(2**8) interests you < 1630806552 653624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess < 1630806553 640869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the intel manual says the polynomial is "x**8 + x**4 + x**3 + x + 1" (the powers set with superscripts) < 1630806569 479335 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's wrong, surely, that wasn't on the list of valid polynomials you linked < 1630806619 380649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's odd < 1630806659 384304 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :speaking about figuring out which dictionaries to look up, I guess [tags] here do the job https://i.imgur.com/FfAxjZC.png < 1630806674 217801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a recent AMD manual < 1630806704 30159 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but hm, only 12 results and tags don't intersect much so it would need to prebuild some tag topic clouds < 1630806707 778377 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, Intel now has a combined PDF that does all the instructions in one PDF, that's a good enough reason to download a new one < 1630806746 472293 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :three results for G... https://stackexchange.com/search?q=GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630806770 956030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it has all in one PDF. it still has the separate volumes for printing, but who prints a full Intel manual? < 1630806783 175038 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's weird that not all search results display tqgs < 1630806793 209727 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it was split last time I looked < 1630806796 702016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's been five years < 1630806826 544374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it exists as split pdfs too. and you still need to download the optimization manual in two separate pdfs (one general and one specific for your microarchitecture) besides the combined volume, and sometimes there's a supplement for planned future instructions < 1630806835 650468 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, it still has separate chapters for A-L, M-U, V-Z < 1630806851 934264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it's literally "combined volumes" as in all "printed" volumes in one PDF < 1630806860 390376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the covers changed, but not much else < 1630806869 765624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for optimization, I normally look at Agner Fog's manuals rather than the official ones, they're generally more accurate and also make it easier to work out what would run well on multiple architectures < 1630806883 836763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, but I want to have both < 1630806906 746320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean ideally I should have up to date AMD manuals too, but I don't < 1630806918 586740 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have rather old ones) < 1630806980 32564 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tend to treat AMD's as the "official" ones as they invented x86_64 < 1630807000 841610 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, in practice, whatever Intel does tends to become standard because they have such market dominance < 1630807052 728832 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so two of 3 search results have the tag "assembly" and the top google result is the page with a nice list of them https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/ < 1630807083 836171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think they're both official only for the CPUs that they each sell, but in practice those are very close and have almost no incompatibilities so you can use the other manual < 1630807110 213216 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs : there are two things you can do with a pointer: a) pointer arithmetic operations like offset, compare, etc.; and b) dereferencing it to get at the value you're pointing to – Of course, the latter is very much not specific to pointers. < 1630807165 604333 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: definitely; the problem is that many systems programming languages don't have anything efficient that does just b), if you want b) from a primitive then you get a) too < 1630807173 796192 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which rather hinders optimisation opportunities < 1630807258 21788 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also the support for “peek but no poke” is limited apparently? < 1630807345 19598 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :truly read-only pointers are rare, although most languages have something comparable but with weird edge cases < 1630807355 162870 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the language level, that is < 1630807366 981139 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's quite easy to get modern CPUs to not let a program write to particular areas of memory at all < 1630807502 253782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow rubygems have webhooks https://guides.rubygems.org/rubygems-org-api/#webhook-methods so I can make a \rasel remote executor to redeploy the function if I update the gem; that's not something to do often (or even ever) but it also makes me thinj of using github webhooks in a similar way to automatically update the IRC bot handlers < 1630807559 133727 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course it can also pull the master HEAD every time but it would make the command work one second longer and the handler will break if something happens to the repo < 1630807564 279641 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O (Haskell has three different representations that correspond to pointers) < 1630807600 753095 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though the "something happends to the repo" isn't much more possible thing to happen than to "happen with the GCP Functions" since the github repo isn't billed < 1630807636 800542 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Well, GHC.) < 1630808497 514591 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen > 1630809479 670776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OISC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87921&oldid=86793 5* 03VitalMixofNutrients 5* (+2804) 10I want to dispute the claim that FlipJump is the simplest OISC, by proving that Bit-Bit-Jump is actually the simplest and can evaluate conditional statements unlike FlipJump. < 1630810005 351130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a few days ago I dreamed that I was joined on an IRC channel, and since waking, I'm wondering if that was trying to reference a specific real channel that I once joined, presumably on freenode, or if it was completely invented < 1630810076 427305 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what was the Nitter analogue for Instagram? < 1630810234 234978 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"simplest OISC" seems like an interesting argument to get into < 1630810321 579425 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, the argument on that page doesn't seem to help much > 1630810445 540342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ID machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87922 5* 03B jonas 5* (+25) 10redirect because that's where I looked and the search results didn't help < 1630810446 468657 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630810486 502068 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OISC systems have to have some essential complexity somewhere. If it's squeezed out of the instruction count, then it'll show up again in the instruction definition. < 1630810650 710567 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the discussion didn't mention TCness, so I guess an OISC with a nop instruction is the simplest < 1630810655 407375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does 1.1 count as a OISC? < 1630810686 700810 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty much anything can be interpreted as an OISC if you try hard enough < 1630810702 910591 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure it's something that can be objectively defined < 1630810712 739808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, does slashes or Thue count as an OISC? < 1630810743 924546 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model is arguably a ZISC (I actually found the ZISC formulation first, and it wasn't until I discovered the language a second time that I realised how easy it was to implement) < 1630810747 739794 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that OISC and ZISC are perspectives. < 1630810759 260571 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's a good way to put it < 1630810779 275646 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I want sandwich ( < 1630810780 797202 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I do have the (possibly incorrect) view that an OISC/ZISC has to be imperative < 1630810824 874361 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the nondeterministic-as-in-declarative version of Thue, therefore, probably isn't (I still think this is the intended definition, as opposed to "replace a random substring") < 1630810830 335938 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's fine for a ZISC machine to have computable (say, poly-time) small-step behavior, but be Turing-complete under iteration. That's how I think of The Waterfall Model, at least. < 1630810847 181999 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630810847 522793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are languages where I don't even know how to count how many instructions they have < 1630810859 69845 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually it's very common for TC languages to have simple small-step behaviour < 1630810905 402632 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there languages without instructions? < 1630810911 871335 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, any 2-instruction no-argument language (e.g. Brainpocalypse or the I/D machine) can be made into an OISC by run-length encoding it < 1630810922 539477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that depends on your point of view < 1630810929 889590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: would you count a one-combinator basis of combinatorial calculus an OISC? and is it imperative? < 1630810965 70402 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: only if it somehow worked without a precedence override, which is probably impossible (if you want to stay TC) < 1630810974 725776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't that only if at most one of the two instructions have operand fields? < 1630810993 993952 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I guess, if you want to let the combined instruction take multiple arguments < 1630811011 343885 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 people build everything with blocks, write music with notes, even that esolang where you put things on the table has things as instructions < 1630811027 638274 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if there is anything that can't be broken into discrete parts < 1630811045 124525 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I have been looking for a language like that but failed to find one < 1630811058 574520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what counts as instructions in Consumer society, even though it is imperative and programs have a source code < 1630811066 490935 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But Is It Art? is a good counterexample to a lot of statements about languages, it arguably doesn't have instructions < 1630811095 963457 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the Post correspondence problem, that's like a 1D version of BIIA? < 1630811106 339933 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[wiki But Is It Art?] [wiki Consumer society] < 1630811107 731277 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, they both still have composability in a sense < 1630811112 873940 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :thread error < 1630811117 638547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art? < 1630811125 237126 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if Consumer Society has one < 1630811126 648800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Conway's Game of Life have instructions? < 1630811131 499112 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_ArtF < 1630811134 357181 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%F < 1630811149 347854 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gah, what is up with the escaping here < 1630811151 292266 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%%F < 1630811154 544040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consumer Society doesn't have a wiki page because I haven't published its definition yet and I didn't want to create a completely useless stub < 1630811156 757450 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F < 1630811160 262947 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[wiki But Is It Art?] < 1630811161 350559 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But%20Is%20It%20Art%3F < 1630811168 791224 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there we go < 1630811181 75928 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk why it timed out on the first try < 1630811181 967186 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I needed to type two percent signs and two 3s for some reason < 1630811190 494762 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :either google or wiki were cold I guess < 1630811190 645551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`addquote Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630811194 721892 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1334) Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630811269 280448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does C have instructions? < 1630811291 387796 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has statements, those are a decent analogue for instructions < 1630811297 497572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or Algol might be a better question < 1630811320 653119 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, if statements matter then how about just lambda calculus? < 1630811320 791855 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like Diophantine equations are a good example of something that doesn't clearly have separate statements < 1630811350 779670 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think the best way to think about lambda calculus imperatively is that apply is the statement < 1630811356 153461 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the instruction < 1630811368 115114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :might be < 1630811376 448133 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh https://esolangs.org/wiki/Matrioshka_language -- the "matrIOshka" is a word with Ё < 1630811386 480623 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is very clear in unlambda, the only thing that actually does anything is the backquote < 1630811421 851441 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I think "matrioshka" is an English word which was borrowed from Russian, but often those words change in the borrowing < 1630811456 344046 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had matrioshka < 1630811466 118542 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was like 5 < 1630811493 740096 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. "babushka" is an English word by now but the vowels are all different compared to the Russian original < 1630811504 330990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a small matrioshka < 1630811516 81185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I certainly didn't have one when I was 5 < 1630811533 403535 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the English version of the pronunciation is inherently funny to say which is why it caught on, but would be annoying to use on a regular basis) < 1630811622 343913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary says it's pronounced bəˈbuːʃ.kə in English, the Russian version is ˈbabʊʂkə which is quite different < 1630811658 807192 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English is really weird sometimes < 1630811661 919272 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I heard that the accent is in different place < 1630811713 690446 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My favorite example of English inability to pronounce things right is French "marche" vs. English "mush". < 1630811725 43281 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :By the way, the Russian system of indicating the stressed syllable with a mark *over* the vowel rather than next to it is so much better. < 1630811725 346507 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Words often change in borrowing between different language < 1630811813 985876 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes even in borrowing within the same language. < 1630811875 602864 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, even same language too sometimes < 1630812021 813128 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC there are some cases where English borrowed the same word twice, with two different meanings, but can't think of any offhand < 1630812096 225375 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in modern Russian the lack of a culture of education (in Soviet time it was cool to know things, read a lot, etc.) and internet with all its memes and hypes makes young people often learn anglicisms instead of using the Russian word that always existed but teachers didn't bother to teach kid it < 1630812125 443460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure if "proof" vs "probe" counts < 1630812134 283658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for what you're looking for < 1630812171 589920 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, that's interesting, "prove" once used to mean "test" (i.e. an effective synonym of "probe") but the meaning changed over time < 1630812190 688114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that's also the Greek and Spanish system, but unlike the russians those actually use it < 1630812190 944176 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe we borrowed it twice, with the same meaning, but the meaning diverged in between? < 1630812214 375558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think it's actually borrowed as "proof" and "probe", and "prove" was derived from "proof" in English, but I'm not sure < 1630812252 939542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for meaning change, that's why "proof of the pudding" makes no sense < 1630812276 235135 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like "prove" in French was the borrowed word < 1630812303 667244 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for "prove"/"proof" < 1630812308 120707 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, people installing and using software with a messaging functionality and lacking the Russian localisation learn the word "message" and don't use the word "сообщение" < 1630812313 957964 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas "probe" was the same word but borrowed from Latin < 1630812322 585028 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they say месседж or мэсседж < 1630812403 604251 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in 5 or 6 years time, probably the loanword will be a real word with the meaning of "a message sent over the Internet in particular", the way these things normally go < 1630812437 837006 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "governor" and "cybernetics" are two borrowings of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%85%CE%B2%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82#Ancient_Greek < 1630812438 784316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't that "email"? < 1630812446 713943 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You may recognize a third recent borrowing, "kubernetes" < 1630812454 628794 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Email is not the only message send over internet < 1630812459 231284 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "email" is more specific < 1630812547 906522 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: i suspect internet slang is a mess of borrowings in all languages other than english, not just russian. < 1630812548 395260 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: that's amazing, that there's such a difference in meaning < 1630812565 262434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and english is a mess too) < 1630812566 89501 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: in English, too < 1630812584 972556 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. "kek" is a borrowing from an invented language made for World of Warcraft… < 1630812593 766986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? are you sure? < 1630812625 226311 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: is that directed at me? yes, this one's pretty well documented < 1630812626 982698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought "kek" was an alternate spelling for an onomatopoeia that may or may not have been borrowed form jaapenese < 1630812633 46331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, about "kek" < 1630812652 871126 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "lol" passed through a character filter designed to prevent the players of the two opposing factions understanding each other < 1630812661 897968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, apparently from korean < 1630812671 553484 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes just as much sense as most Internet slang… < 1630812689 698147 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, this is disputed, the Korean borrowing is also mentioned < 1630812727 446653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it's an obvious onomatopoeia, it can appear in multiple languages and be impossible to figure out where it's copied from < 1630812733 605883 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan I won't mind it if internet messaging was something very new thing but those were "сообщения" for many years, until the internet got to the youngest people who lack the vocabulary < 1630812765 750465 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary (which is not a reliable source for this sort of dispute) says that the World of Warcraft thing was *intentionally* added by Blizzard to perpetuate a Korean Starcraft meme, which i think is more or less impossible < 1630812775 1813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, in general I don't understand how linguists can so often give such certain statements about etimology when there's more than one possibility. < 1630812821 240758 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes the statements aren't so certain < 1630812822 839719 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, this may be a weird case in which the supposed etymology is the reason the word is used, even if it isn't correct… < 1630812867 37541 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahah, it says in French it's Французский Кек — Queque < 1630812872 357931 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"quiz" is a good one; there's a widespread belief that the word was invented for a bet, but apparently there's no evidence about this < 1630812906 326903 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Until relatively recently, words had to arise in geographic locations. We know e.g. where "marche" became "mush" because we know where French and English occupied territory during the start of dog-sledding in North America. (And TBH I think that "like, Alaska" is the best answer we currently have?) < 1630812923 530701 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, Russian for France is almost identical to the English (and of course to the French), but the spelling is so different it's hard to recognise < 1630813084 809965 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking up "the proof of the pudding", apparently it's mutated into "the proof is in the pudding" in some areas < 1630813092 284243 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes even less sense < 1630813098 584442 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :russian article http://wikireality.ru/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B5%D0%BA says kekeke originated in starcraft as an automated transliteration from horean hehehe but I agree it's not clear that kek is the same as kekeke < 1630813136 737744 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*korean < 1630813138 603032 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :_<> < 1630813172 276138 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the debate is primarily about which Blizzard-created automatic character filter is responsible? < 1630813191 58669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630813291 669790 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, "pwn" is another good one, especially as it likely had no defined pronunciation for a while < 1630813468 878597 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Does Russian not use it? < 1630813476 319626 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's one that appeared in written chat like "glod" and "teh urn" < 1630813488 174450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those have obvious pronunciations < 1630813489 920667 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or do you mean that Greek or Spanish use it all the time, and not just when indicating how to pronounce a word? I haven't seen that. < 1630813492 95976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: only in dictionaries and language textbooks for learners afaiu < 1630813499 718341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630813505 179843 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :use what? < 1630813520 802584 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ´ above a vowel to indicate stress < 1630813525 655929 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1630813526 5338 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there any language where the spelling indicates where the stress goes all the time, and not just in special cases? < 1630813529 26217 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Finnish, I suppose. < 1630813536 152157 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sort of. < 1630813567 311429 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually in books the thing is printed right above the letter < 1630813574 382182 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, neither Wiktionary nor Urban Dictionary has "teh urn", but it was definitely widespread in the speedrunning community for a while < 1630813576 180501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :greek uses it in all multisyllable words, while spanish has a default stress rule that allows leaving it out in many words, but it's mandatory for all others < 1630813576 324968 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most languages already use very redundant spelling compared to e.g. Hebrew. < 1630813583 722241 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might be more of a meme than an actual word, though < 1630813584 442113 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's just an internet thing that people have to put the ' somewhere < 1630813597 49905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: do they have "urn" and "teh" separately? < 1630813601 869892 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we don't have a functionality to put the thing directly above an arbitrary letter at least in russian layout < 1630813614 994253 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait < 1630813625 71918 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well, "urn" is a real but unrelated word, and I'd expect "teh" to be there because it's older < 1630813632 926545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know unicode doesn't have precomposed characters for russian vowels with an acute accent, < 1630813633 606417 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you mean the rules of transcription in nelgih dictionaries -- yet, it's older than internet < 1630813638 620156 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630813647 23161 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*english < 1630813648 774690 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :_OO < 1630813664 129859 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the September is cold, my fingers to typos < 1630813669 935001 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*do < 1630813677 100665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while it does have precomposed characters for vowels with acute or grave (both acute and grave are used to mark stress, but in different European languages, by the way), because all of them clearly exist in at least some language like Welsh < 1630813728 306385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, urban dictionary has "urn" in an entirely different sense < 1630813738 787869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a sense I never heard of < 1630813747 839589 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowyourmeme doesn't have "teh urn" either (although it appears in one of the references) < 1630813756 367102 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that doesn't surprise me, lots of slang is regional < 1630813756 854884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fun < 1630813776 222483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, not the part where I don't know the slang < 1630813786 860722 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know most of the entires in urbandictionary < 1630813805 476299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just that there is a third sense that happens to collide with that existing word < 1630813815 939445 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with apparently three different etimologies < 1630813835 216670 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Язы́к программи́рования" -- here is copypasta from wikipedia; in the article the tick is right above the letter but while I'm typing this message I see it's after the letter < 1630813836 33766 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "teh urn" is probably best considered to be a Twitch meme, which was fairly long-running for Twitch memes but short-lived in terms of the language generally < 1630813850 496853 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, when I've pressed Enter it's now rendering above the letter again < 1630813856 976375 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: the russian and greek ´ are unicode modifier characters (not sure if they're the same character), so you _can_ put it anywhere in unicode as long as you have a way of typing it < 1630813890 805433 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :text entry boxes often treat combining characters in dubious ways < 1630813895 394074 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630813905 35999 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if there is a non-dubious way to treat them for editing purposes (as opposed to display purposes) < 1630813914 97969 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I'm editing this copypasta in the text input I can't select it and move elsewhere, it's like bound to the vowel already < 1630813930 695609 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :As far as I know, mostly it is the Romantic languages that have acute and grave accents, and other languages work differently. Is that right? < 1630814044 322733 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630814088 26205 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think that mostly depends on where the language got its alphabet from < 1630814092 123307 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: btw italian uses _both_ acute and grave to mark stress on the last syllable (and in some dictionaries, elsewhere) with a close/open distinction of pronunciation when the vowel is e (or o, except then it's always ò at the end), but only there unless it's in a dictionary. < 1630814137 921526 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory, a language could have multiple different writing systems, but that doesn't seem to happen that often in practice < 1630814207 283140 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, consensus is just the best. How come hardly anyone's into it? < 1630814228 233615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it does happen, just usually not simultaneously. serbian might be the only one that can keep two for decades. < 1630814237 249302 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no < 1630814244 576521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously Norwegian will keep them longer < 1630814246 577355 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, other languages even with Latin alphabets work differently as far as I know, at least Germanic languages that use Latin alphabets, as far as I have seen they are differently, but I don't really know all of these thing if it is. I know that English writing does not normally use the accent marks, at least. < 1630814279 270654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are much more that had different writing systems with different scripts at different times < 1630814280 208223 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :technology seems to drive elimination of letters from English < 1630814289 614923 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :þ started dying out when printing came about < 1630814310 825479 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it was typewriters and then computers that have mostly driven out the diaresis < 1630814332 891431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, as for the diarrhea, I wanted to ask < 1630814344 257099 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what < 1630814347 658662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you spell Bo-otes the constellation in English ais523 < 1630814352 92658 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm just about old enough to remember the time when diareses were seen frequently enough to not look odd) < 1630814368 287209 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know the constellation in question < 1630814379 82910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` \? diarrhea # nakilon < 1630814380 993843 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave. < 1630814390 213563 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that one; it's spelled "bootes" and you're just supposed to know that it's boötes. < 1630814421 693155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia suggests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo%C3%B6tes < 1630814435 466869 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's using the diaresis for its intended purpose < 1630814464 924146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, so I was wondering if you use the diar... trema there < 1630814491 646677 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use the diaresis everywhere I can get away with it, which is very few places < 1630814500 846850 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, few people know it exists < 1630814514 657252 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot can change in a few decades < 1630814527 567809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the context is https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2021-05.html#lqp < 1630814557 174154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but isn't it one of those things that you can still use if most people don't know it because they can pick it up by example? < 1630814572 396921 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I have heard that a thorn is not used in English due to printing, but I think some languages still use < 1630814580 792016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a difference between what's understandable and what's socially acceptable < 1630814604 76597 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people will laugh at you for writing "coöperative", even though it's normal-ish in old books < 1630814636 801042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: nynorsk vs. bokmål aren't just about spelling, there are also different word choices at least traditionally. and even phrasing: nynorsk frowns more upon using convoluted syntax with verbs being nouned (but _both_ frown upon it compared to german or even english) < 1630814640 73511 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary calls it a "rare spelling" < 1630814690 707080 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20120204065251/http://people.ku.edu/~nkinners/LangList/Extras/famous.htm < 1630814698 12955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: ok. and it's not clear if serbian is a good example, or if in the future we'll just see it as a short period when two systems coexisted < 1630814728 407396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I do hope it's the serbian latin that dies out by the way) < 1630814748 937647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but one of them will die out for sure) < 1630814805 593900 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: apparently they've survived in parallel since 1830 < 1630814814 238599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? really that old? < 1630814818 492996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought it was much newer < 1630814818 710100 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is longer than I expected < 1630814852 87124 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this may end up in a situation like Japanese, where hiragana and katakana are used for different purposes (katakana's almost like italics) < 1630814871 443426 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but have a 1-to-1 correspondence < 1630814943 355620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really see how it could end up that way < 1630814970 274765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well maybe < 1630815000 570212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can more easily imagine them being used in different kinds of text, but not generally mixed in one book < 1630815029 560012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the problem is < 1630815061 150811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both latin and cyrillic already has lower case, upper case, and italic forms, so you don't need an extra doubling to use different letters for different occasions < 1630815239 268138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have three cases, but six is entirely too many < 1630815342 354780 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/cases/genders/ * runs hastily away from both woke and bantu people < 1630815424 4307 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankalk%C3%BCl < 1630815431 135739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so didn't serbian cyrillic only get popular in the 1980s or 1990s, even if it was invented earlier? < 1630815434 972295 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : > While working on his doctoral dissertation, Zuse developed the first known formal system of algorithm notation[7] capable of handling branches and loops.[8][9] In 1942 he began writing a chess program in Plankalkül < 1630815441 879633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry sorry < 1630815443 455033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean < 1630815446 926224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so didn't serbian latin only get popular in the 1980s or 1990s, even if it was invented earlier? < 1630815467 310917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :serbian cyrillic was popular before that obviously < 1630815488 495097 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :dude didn't even yet have a programming language but started coding chess -- how monay today's "programmers" would try to code chess at least once in their life? < 1630815499 217005 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*how many < 1630815537 793702 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: for a time until about 1990 a lot of people tried hard to claim serbian and croatian were the same language hth < 1630815649 378098 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(based on politics and the silly argument that there was hardly any difference to speak of) < 1630815679 515960 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(then the politics changed and they quickly started making sure there _was_ a difference) < 1630815714 851454 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but i think they're still closer than say bokmål and nynorsk?) < 1630815732 861246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: yep < 1630815758 411696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe serbian latin was popular before the 50s, that's just too old for me to have noticed? < 1630815772 854972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see books that old often < 1630815789 730793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, you know, posts on the internet that old < 1630815798 603564 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Icelandic still has thorn < 1630815807 900033 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shocking < 1630815849 844107 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Icelandic's use of þ is the reason it has a default keybinding on this layout < 1630815857 806271 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and eth (ð) which is like the voiced version i think < 1630815938 883480 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :voiced th bothers me so much, because my brain tries hard to refuse to hear it as distinct from the unvoiced version < 1630815942 650208 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: istr ada lovelace similarly coded tic-tac-toe < 1630815966 510223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a bit easier < 1630815971 915237 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it took me a while to figure out whether the "th" in "thorn" is voiced or unvoiced, I had to say it over and over again and compare with reference words < 1630815976 894369 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the sounds aren't even that close < 1630816014 467231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so IOCCC had a chess engine before 2005/toledo: 1992/vern. I thought it only had toledo's chess engine, his X11 chess program, and suicide chess. < 1630816022 818505 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been wondering if there's a way to spell either of the sounds to make their pronuncuation unambiguous to a typical English speaker < 1630816032 151449 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan funny but it's just exactly 1-2 days ago that I during having fun on lichess started thinking about making chess and then switched to idea to start with tic-tac-toe to avoid spending time on coding the rules -- this is why yesterday I threw some links about Gomoku < 1630816051 371518 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess "vh" for voiced "th" isn't massively far off < 1630816061 41479 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because the tic-tac-toe would be too fast to calculate fully) < 1630816061 452824 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "fh" for unvoiced? < 1630816089 70363 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it helps that "v" is the voiced version of "f" < 1630816115 585639 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(oerjan-style thought bubble: does that mean that the opposite of "voiced" should be "foiced"?) < 1630816131 29026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, so that's how you're supposed to pronounce fhtagn? < 1630816144 373195 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even "foist", I guess < 1630816156 926463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : voiced th bothers me so much, because my brain tries hard to refuse to hear it as distinct from the unvoiced version <-- huh are there no minimal pairs in english? i don't know a rule to know which one is correct where < 1630816162 389563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also I wanted to ask you guys if there is something between Tic-tac-toe and Nim that would be easy to implement the rules machine and yet hard to calculate, but then I discovered the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M,n,k-game that allows me to just take different n,m,k < 1630816180 972774 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: "the"/"this" is not a pair but make for good reference words < 1630816192 576185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now you just have to explain all the other consonant combinations that appear at the start of a word only in incantations to summon Cthulhu < 1630816207 852863 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess "this" (voiced) / "thistle" (unvoiced) have a paired syllable < 1630816231 864719 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: on the other hand as a norwegian i have similar problems with voiced and unvoiced s (the latter doesn't exist in norwegian, which has no voiced sibilants) < 1630816232 81080 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the second "t" in "thistle" is silent, fortunately, or it wouldn't work) < 1630816294 860281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know a rule for which th to use either, but I assume one exists, because I've never had trouble pronouncing an unknown English word with a th in it < 1630816320 649938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it seems to me that dh would be a reasonable spelling of the voiced version < 1630816335 495326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I've implemented the Gomoku in around 2007 in C++Builder -- it was thinking for few seconds and wasn't easy to beat, at least for me; the whole 3 (or 4?) deep loop was hardcoded with no recursion < 1630816343 244567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what? there's no way the "t" is always silent. isn't it's just one of those "t"s that are sometimes silent, like the one in "often"? < 1630816344 931751 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that dh is a real digraph which has its own pronunciation < 1630816371 74357 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary says always silent < 1630816380 143439 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe earlier than 2007 because it feels like I didn't have internet yet to know for sure how ti should be done < 1630816387 166138 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and pronouncing it would be really weird, it'd end up rhyming with "pistol" < 1630816418 617899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so does my Longman. funny. < 1630816425 291065 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in "often" the 't' is sometimes pronounced but it's rare < 1630816436 986000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( it's not oerjan-style without the prefix hth ) < 1630816478 967047 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_%E2%9F%A8th%E2%9F%A9 seems useful < 1630816510 880413 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol I remember how in school every teacher of English was reteaching us the pronounciation < 1630816516 798772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: um "the"/"this" are both voiced unless i am far more gravely mistaken about them than i thought < 1630816516 908762 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they all said "your previous teacher is dumb" < 1630816550 111437 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I was about to say that < 1630816557 598806 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I /just/ realised that "the" is voiced < 1630816565 682417 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though I was sure it was unvoiced earlier < 1630816574 789465 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came here to say that, and then noticed your ping < 1630816586 351071 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is how hard it is for an English speaker to tell them apart < 1630816597 969413 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"this"/"thistle" helped, though < 1630816611 43217 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were officially taught british english and when there was a teacher of english literature that "lived in USA for several years" we could not understand her at all < 1630816668 259923 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One thing that I do think can be good to continue using thorn letter in English is when you want to abbreviate "Thursday" as one letter, so that is difference from "Tuesday". And then, write "L" for "Lyeday" (as another name for Saturday); I have seen suggestion Lyeday for Saturday too (and it look like it is another name for that day in Proto-Germanic), and I like this because it is not "S" like "Sunday") < 1630816670 391992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1630816677 919140 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American English and British English are mutually intelligible but the differences are actually quite large < 1630816707 995124 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had also heard someone who speak English could understand well enough in most countries (even those who are not English) except in England < 1630816715 188755 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I could see how it would be difficult as a second language < 1630816774 766879 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean like those youtube videos of "speaking with scottish accent" or something -- the same much inunderstandable < 1630816788 106789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: shouldn't we just abbreviate them as the alchemical symbols for the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Sun? < 1630816793 715208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the days of the week that is < 1630816795 883606 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, here we go, the rules for telling the "th"s apart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_%E2%9F%A8th%E2%9F%A9#Phonology_and_distribution < 1630816808 276756 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :she was dictating things and we were just pretending we understand, but mostly asked each other "what did she just say?" ..D < 1630816817 843497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, W-5, W-6, W-7 if you prefer < 1630816830 580385 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: a sufficiently strong accent can be hard to understand even for native speakers < 1630816881 22781 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, abbreviating them as the the symbols for the planets is another way, maybe is better < 1630816900 712961 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, I love the way that Wikipedia points out that "lighthouse" is an exception, the t and h are in different syllables < 1630816934 87496 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember how I asked: "road or wrote?" and in Russian it actually sounds like "в рот" meaning "into a mouth" -- the class went laughing and she asked me to leave and after that or another lesson she just refused to do lessons with me, lol < 1630816956 816438 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember how I was rated in the end of the year < 1630817013 543825 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably now I could understand from the context if it's road or wrote but not when you are 16 or so < 1630817141 156801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: write/right/rite/wright is one of the worse homophones in English < 1630817151 347523 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"cloth"/"clothe" aren't a pair because the vowel is different, but I can pronounce "clothe" with either th easily < 1630817173 291416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can you pronounce it with either th as either a noun or verb? < 1630817175 910940 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think in alchemy they are just used as the sign for different metals and chemical elements; in astrology/astronomy they are used to represent the planets, Sun, and Moon.) < 1630817208 113207 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the verb can only use the voiced version, if I pronounce it unvoiced it sounds like a nonexistent noun (an irregular singular of "clothes") < 1630817214 879788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yeah, astrological symbols might make more sense < 1630817222 633254 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is weird because the th in "clothes" is voiced too < 1630817250 574195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you pronounce "clothing"? < 1630817273 628703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? hth < 1630817275 905749 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. < 1630817299 919165 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: voiced < 1630817314 999586 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm getting better at telling them apart but it takes so much concentration < 1630817327 530423 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the first class we were taught to spell "can't" with "a", and in the second class we've got another teacher and she said "omg, don't say like that", you should use "e" sound otherwise it sounds bad -- only after school I've learned what word she meant < 1630817329 33470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... now I'll have to look that up in the Longman too < 1630817337 5768 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that's another pair – the second syllable of "clothing", against "thing" < 1630817356 100157 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then in movies I hear "can't" exactly like we were taught in the first class so we were not fully wrong, it was just an accent < 1630817383 47587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :longman says "clothing" is voiced too < 1630817410 871083 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently "th" in the middle of a word is nearly always voiced, and "th" at the start of a word is nearly always unvoiced – Wikipedia claims that there are exactly 14 base words whose derivatives start with voiced "th", and all other words are unvoiced < 1630817425 413707 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would explain why I rarely have much trouble getting it correct < 1630817448 681265 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"th" at the end of the word varies by both the word and by the accent of the speaker, according to Wikipedia, and when I think about it I think that's right < 1630817458 655474 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, TIL this longman thing https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/can-t what does red and blue mean? they are exactly what you meant < 1630817461 342456 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*what I < 1630817475 997840 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically, the less voiced your final ths are, the further north you live < 1630817479 885333 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're in the UK < 1630817495 488366 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630817527 854150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: no < 1630817557 299184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my longman is a printed dictionary from the same publisher (Langenscheidt-Longman) < 1630817569 155166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :called "Dictionary of Contemporary English" < 1630817588 670741 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though the definition in that page is confusing < 1630817603 828165 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :" something is impossible or unlikely" is exactly the "Sorry, I can’t help you." < 1630817618 197315 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I missed definition 2 there < 1630817627 453688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a very good dictionary in the sense that its definitions are easier to understand than the ones in Oxfords, and much easier than the ones in Websters < 1630817631 260430 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you write it as "cannot" it sounds more like an order, rather than a state of fact < 1630817682 255561 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't noticed that rule before, and was vaguely surprised that a dictionary picked up on it < 1630817701 714242 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, this seems to be a meaning that's missing from "cannot" rather than an extra meaning of "can't" < 1630817704 78972 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas can’t | meaning of can’t in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE < 1630817704 927905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I highly recommend using Longmans as the first one-language English dictionary for foreign language learners < 1630817739 41272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ok, but this one doesn't have red and blue stuff, except the blue L on the cover, and definitely doesn't have sound recordings < 1630817761 919387 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :..D < 1630817783 382108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't know what red and blue means < 1630817788 55007 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yout typography had only black ink < 1630817837 458402 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh when you hover the mouse it says red british blue american < 1630817870 423054 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :haha, so the teacher from 2 to 9 classes was wrong < 1630817945 790792 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm trying to imagine what American English "can't" sounds like (without cheating by playing a recording) < 1630817984 876983 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, Wiktionary says /kænt/, and æ is easy, that'd basically be British English "cant" < 1630818017 859582 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : I guess the transcription on that page means the same: /kɑːnt $ kænt/ < 1630818023 85060 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just not colored < 1630818036 490821 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…it crosses my mind that I've partially learnt quite a few alphabets < 1630818075 467321 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know more than half of Cyrillic but not all of it, I struggle with many of the vowels, and also the consonants that are written as digraphs in English (I have trouble remembering which is which) < 1630818127 639966 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I know some of IPA but not all of it (that's especially hard for sounds that aren't in English, although I can normally get there by reading the Wikipedia article and following its instructions about where to put the various parts of my mouth to pronounce them) < 1630818265 739672 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder whether the "th" in words like "lighthouse" should be technically written as "tḧ"? although the diaresis is only supposed to be used on vowels, I guess now that it isn't used anywhere any more I can put it where I like < 1630818292 336694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :brilliant < 1630818294 575091 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas does your book longman have one or two transcriptions? < 1630818478 495996 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: anyway, now that I've read the rules, I can understand why þ/ð pairs are so hard to find in English – the rules pretty much eliminate them < 1630818489 601896 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahaha, another example https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/homework < 1630818503 318110 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would probably need to find a loanword with a th in the middle, that happened to otherwise be the same as a native word < 1630818520 359782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in 1st class we were taught to say hAm, and the next teacher said it's stupid, say hOm < 1630818527 937722 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oʊ? wow < 1630818530 319840 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"because otherwise it sounds like harm work" < 1630818556 665569 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American English sounds ridiculous to Brits sometimes < 1630818585 167463 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is so weird to finally know why other teachers said we've got not the best teacher during 2-9 < 1630818613 603588 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I could teach American English < 1630818618 360660 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :she was kind of right to say cEn't and hAm but not while saying that "we are learning british one" at the same time < 1630818626 770500 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the vowels are so different < 1630818709 103474 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this was all wrong to decide that "we teach this one" because in the end today I have no idea which one is which < 1630818725 866230 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it ...tize os ...tise, color or colour beughbor or neighbour, etc. < 1630818765 110643 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be nice if instead of "we learn british, that's it" we were "learning both, here remember the difference..." < 1630818771 130745 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…ise vs. …ize, nobody has any idea any more < 1630818781 396211 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we would pay attention < 1630818784 256206 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both are used interchangeably in both Britain and the US any more, probably because they're pronounced the same way < 1630818792 104219 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/any more/nowadays/ < 1630818802 458935 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"beughbor" oh god today's typos < 1630818804 442112 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some people try to insist on a rule to distinguish them but nobody can remember which is which < 1630818824 638790 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I have spellcheckers on my computer with strong opinions about -ise versus -ize but they disagree with each other < 1630818838 126334 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahah, I always ignore those red lines < 1630818843 501760 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*underlines < 1630818844 134305 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, in most of the cases where the words are a different length, the British spelling has more letters than the American < 1630818867 715847 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so "neighbor", "color" are US, "neighbour", "colour" are UK < 1630818889 913624 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I guess it was less practical to learn british one < 1630818892 86425 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :despite being British, I will often use the American spellings in technical contexts, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not < 1630818902 823732 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they could not predict that though, we are the Europe < 1630818903 259106 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American is more widely used, I think, because they outnumber us < 1630819387 517272 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we? < 1630819476 684227 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by a factor of about 5, it seems < 1630819528 819319 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn, sorry. < 1630819530 842092 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll try harder. < 1630819720 990991 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I look down on anyone teaching English as a second language who doesn't realise that British and American English both exist, though (and it's confusing to change from one to the other mid-course) < 1630819986 771103 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: OK, I finally found a þ|ð pair: "loath" / "loathe" < 1630820013 879851 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's not great because "loath" is pretty obscure as words go < 1630820063 321183 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, Google Ngrams has "loath" as more common than "loathe", but derived forms of "loathe" (such as "loathing") beat both < 1630820079 332506 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION quickly looks up how to pronouce "Lothian" < 1630820093 922477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ð it seems < 1630820171 491414 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the pair only works because the "e" is supposed to lengthen the preceding vowel but it's long anyway, so it has no effect other than moving the "th" away from the end of the word < 1630820188 827348 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is, to an English speaker's ear, "loathe" sounds like it has a longer vowel than "loath"! < 1630820256 914974 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it doesn't, it's just perceived like it does) < 1630820326 284053 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1630820484 561016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…it strikes me that English is arguably an esolang < 1630820512 979222 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's why we discuss it so much here < 1630820536 333141 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 we were taught that there are two englishes but we didn't bother to learn both < 1630820552 133988 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the books were specializing on one of them < 1630820574 839605 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and teachers could believe or speculate which pronounciation is correct < 1630820607 262458 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's more than two, but, e.g., Indian and Australian English aren't heard much outside their native countries < 1630820651 408276 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we had only one tape recorder in school to bring fro class to class to play some english recordings on rare occasions, usually a special kind of exams -- "an audition" < 1630820655 358177 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are more than two kind of English; there is also Canadian English too. One thing on the CBC they said, should you use American or British spelling in Canada? I say, you use Canadian spellings in Canada (except computer commands, which will be American). < 1630820672 638099 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I know australian english from youtube < 1630820711 356490 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think Canadian English is a good compromise between British and American < 1630820721 515215 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of people at least in my age didn't even have the full school course of english, usually only 6 years, not 10, or even german instead < 1630820753 126445 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so people just didn't give a damn, and again there was no internet, only tape recordings < 1630820879 251384 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the Internet would be one of the main reasons to learn English < 1630820920 218855 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the main use I've made of my foreign language knowledge – I rarely have a reason to use languages other than English when communicating with other UK residents, and rarely go abroad, but the Internet makes it easy to communicate with people all over the world < 1630820929 666315 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I also think the Canadian English is good compromise between British and American, too. < 1630820935 459978 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"reasons to learn English" -- meh, most of people won't believe in that even today < 1630821001 335946 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a huge imaginary world in which Russians are living where "we don't need anything from outside, it's enough in here" while english memes are leaking but learning things from the source is considered a wrong and shameful < 1630821030 776921 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot of americans have that view too. < 1630821079 640547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of Brits as well < 1630821080 536865 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I worked in many companies and in none of them had even one coworker who would speak with anyone abroad at all; people have learned English only to understand posts on stackoverflow < 1630821158 972327 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm considerably better at understanding foreign languages than typing/speaking them; I wonder if the easiest way to speak with people when there's no fluent common language is for everyone to speak their own language < 1630821167 400761 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that there are reasonable reasons today to learn English writing even if not English speech < 1630821180 58009 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I hardly know any Russian, apart from the occasional loanword < 1630821239 651330 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :French and German come up much more often, probably just based on geographical proximity < 1630821259 677108 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Dutch for some reason, but if you know both English and German, you can often guess at what a Dutch sentence means < 1630821295 192337 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is, at school, I chose Latin as my foreign language primarily because it was taught a lot better than French and German were < 1630821329 281119 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's a good reason < 1630821373 28773 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we had a lecturer of programming who was showing slides with just pseudolanguage that maybe even was his own one < 1630821414 999227 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least he taught us programming and then we could learn the lagnauges specifically < 1630821431 603730 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pseudocode doesn't normally follow actual rules < 1630821438 310957 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just "whatever I expect the audience to understand" < 1630821493 358587 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's the natural-language version of programming, you can be a lot more flexible because you don't need to let a computer understand what you're saying, just a human, and humans can fill in missing parts more easily < 1630823278 653687 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't want to change rasel specification, I don't want to bloat it, and I don't want to make too many derivatives of the same thing; but I still keep thinking about threading and other 2d-related additions, can't decide where to put them; maybe later < 1630823392 34326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I need a language with support of adding powerful extensions < 1630823427 526425 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that I saw anything like that < 1630823464 267068 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be able to have such extensions that would change the runtime so much like adding the subroutines I imagines few hours ago < 1630823510 767049 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*imagined < 1630823849 864820 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Funge-98 has some pretty powerful extensions < 1630823873 984946 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's the only example of something like that I've seen in an esolang (not counting esolangs where the entire language can be redefined at runtime, as that isn't really the same thing) < 1630824010 605657 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630827365 369632 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT : < 1630827380 731940 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630828600 33813 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630829196 619576 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630829421 612600 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630830137 644153 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT : < 1630830158 296084 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630831752 249278 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630833778 242196 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630833907 17719 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1630835494 558957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1630837051 330960 :Robdgreat_!~rob@wurst.1606inc.com JOIN #esolangs * :"St. Asaph the Caffeinated, POEE" < 1630837106 503816 :Robdgreat!~rob@user/robdgreat QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630837172 520686 :Robdgreat_!~rob@wurst.1606inc.com CHGHOST ~rob :user/robdgreat < 1630837178 369309 :Robdgreat_!~rob@user/robdgreat NICK :Robdgreat < 1630839232 304213 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630839782 619543 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630840326 903005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, American "can't" is pronounced as /kænt/ which means that before a verb that starts with a "t" or "d" it sounds exactly the same as "can". some say the American solution to this is that "can" is always pronounce weak with a schwa, but I find that sort of hard to believe. < 1630840429 485330 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re `whether […] "lighthouse" should be technically written as "tḧ"?' => no, just use a hyphen, as in "light-house" if you think without it it's hard to read < 1630840439 847791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I think in the case of lighthouse there's not much need for it < 1630840454 398651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe for hot-headed or pot-hole < 1630840558 67677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"…ise vs. …ize, nobody has any idea any more" I always try to use ize. < 1630840597 142724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I have spellcheckers on my computer with strong opinions" => many spellcheckers have strong opinions about words where there are two variant spellings/pronunciations used. < 1630840731 822178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like try to look at any Hungarian spellchecker, if you take any word where different people use different form of the conjugation or declination for the same thing, it's very likely that the spellchecker only accepts one of them, except when the alternative coincides with what it thinks is either a different form of the word (can happen for a few verb forms) or used with a different meaning of the same < 1630840737 829949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :root word in the same form (usually for nouns) < 1630840819 225148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for color, neighbor, and all the other -ours that don't come up in mathematics that much (honor, flavor, odor, favor, valor, candor etc), I now try to consistently use the -or spelling, but sometimes I still typo into the -our version that I used to be using < 1630840890 852602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`ais523: oerjan: OK, I finally found a þ|ð pair: "loath" / "loathe"' => wait, what was the problem with cloth/clothe and bath/bathe? < 1630840892 385857 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523:? No such file or directory < 1630840922 806435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the latter possibly only in some dialects) < 1630840948 846285 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630840984 570934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :` b_jonas does your book longman have one or two transcriptions?' => usually one; two if the most common American pronunciation can't be derived from the british pronunciation that they list < 1630840985 533821 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​? No such file or directory < 1630841084 985822 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :really < 1630841094 184153 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :no such file or directory < 1630841118 163736 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to name my language nakilon < 1630841130 98954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :` I wonder if the easiest way to speak with people when there's no fluent common language is for everyone to speak their own language' => it can occasionally happen, but rare, mostly because switching languages quickly can be mentally taxing too < 1630841131 23051 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​? No such file or directory < 1630844704 303424 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630844771 557997 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630845766 540007 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630846622 650787 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630846698 899082 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630846726 621801 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630846890 402932 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630849558 410831 :mla!~mla@162.253.176.229 JOIN #esolangs mla :mla < 1630849749 340237 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :please upvote https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28423029 if you like chess and Haskell :-) < 1630850360 407548 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630850604 583027 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630850663 549880 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "cloth/clothe" and "bath/bathe" have different vowels, so they aren't exact matches < 1630850677 321772 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason "loath/loathe" works is that the vowel is long already, so the e doesn't lengthen it < 1630850727 560031 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, multiple sources I've checked suggest that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 produces the finite field that's used in AES encryption, which confuses me because multiple *other* sources say it doesn't produce a finite field at all < 1630851214 453721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :do bath/bathe have different vowels in all dialects? < 1630851251 76735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cloth/clothe ... I never understand how "o" vowels work in English. let me look these up in a dictionary < 1630851256 120595 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think so, at least in British English; the "a" of "bath" varies but it never matches the "a…e" of "bathe", which doen't < 1630851306 529058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you're right, "bathe" has a long vowel < 1630851316 746500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...dearest creature in creation... < 1630851388 721437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, dictionary agrees you for "cloth/clothe" < 1630851411 662351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Any clothing thoughts? ) < 1630851417 964868 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I've been trying to do in my head is to work out, for each phoneme used by English, a way to unambiguously represent it so that it can't be misread as being some other phoneme (potentially context-dependent) < 1630851465 193529 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure it's possible; I haven't found any letter sequence that unambiguously encodes the vowel in bye, pie, sigh, etc., when it appears at the end of a word < 1630851488 478512 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("i…e" encodes it unambiguously when separated by a consonant other than "g") < 1630851496 348902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :phoneme != phone me < 1630851563 73842 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm... if there's not enough good pairs, then we should invent a sci-fi word "theron", with fake greek etymology, that is pronounced like "thereon" but with an unvoiced "th" < 1630851578 391235 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :English orthography reforms are usually doomed. I think both Jan Misali and Conlang Critic have videos about this. < 1630851611 342377 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: this isn't intended as an orthography reform, so much as a way to unambiguously communciate pronunciation of a word to someone who speaks the same dialect of English as you < 1630851645 539521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: as for unambiguously representing each phoneme, usually you just give an example word that is common enough and has that vowel unambiguously enough. there are even lists of such example words for each phonemes, usually to explan what phonemes they're talking about or a specific phonetic notation. < 1630851668 489825 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but they struggle sometimes < 1630851668 912411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think there was something more like you want, but not that unambiguous < 1630851715 360160 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both my Longman and my Oxfor has such example words < 1630851758 916930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English has a list too but possibly not as good < 1630851766 879518 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :/ɨ/ is a good example of a phoneme it's hard to find good example words for < 1630851788 767026 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Many English words have multiple legal pronounciations depending on position and emphasis. First one that comes to mind is "the", which can start either voiced or unvoiced and use either a stressed vowel or schwa. < 1630851801 258454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that a phoneme that appears in an English dialect? < 1630851811 230192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as opposed to non-English languages < 1630851823 790679 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because some people pronounce it identically to ɪ and others don't use it at all < 1630851840 529531 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we ignore that topological obstacle, then maybe examine Lojban's inventory of vowels; it has nearly everything an English-speaker could want. (Many other folks are grumpy about the lack of -eu-; nothing's perfect.) < 1630851841 684532 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think the standard example is the second vowel in "minute" (= 60 seconds), when it isn't a schwa < 1630851889 766397 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I pronounce that in a way that I perceive as identical to ɪ < 1630851910 323836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alan's pronunciation dictionary defines more phonetic symbols than there are phonemes in any dialect, because each symbol can represent a combinations of possibly phonemes depending on the speaker < 1630851953 120003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English has a list of that kind of set of combo-phonemes, sourced from the Wells books < 1630851978 554833 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently some dictionaries have taken to using ᵻ as something that's somewhere along the ə-ɪ scale < 1630852121 157693 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I can get a phoneme that I don't normally use by putting my mouth into the position for /i/ ("ee") and then trying to say /ʊ/ (short "oo") without moving it; based on the definitions of Wikipedia that *should* be /ɨ/ but I'm not sure i believe it, as it seems inconsistent with definitions elsewhere < 1630852308 139744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alan's pron has such a specific combo symbol ê for the second wowel of "minute" the noun in the American pronunciation, and explains that this is sometimes pronounced as the "ship" vowel and sometimes as a schwa < 1630852320 508105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and possibly sometimes as some other vowel) < 1630852340 741898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though apparently that other vowel is supposed to be /ɨ/ < 1630852431 857470 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this finite field thing is bothering me, though < 1630852463 458917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can understand. I decided to stop trying to figure it out yesterday, but should continue at some point < 1630852464 674486 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most consistent with the sources is that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 *does* produce a valid finite field, but it isn't the one that most people use for GF(2⁸) < 1630852530 441798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should be possible to figure that out by making a multiplication table and checking if you can find no zero divsors and an order 128 element < 1630852715 434574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that or ask Sage < 1630852736 43919 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to ask Sage but I can't figure out how to formulate the question, I'm not even sure which field to ask in < 1630852788 885861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the polynomial ring GF(2)[x] factored by that specific polynomial x**8+...+1 (not typing here because I'd typo it) < 1630852844 289520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you try to check a recent AMD manual? < 1630852885 940229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if all else fails, we can ask on Cryptography SE, but I should make an effort trying to figure this out first < 1630852892 666012 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, both the standard version (with α²) and the AES version (with α) are irreducible according to Sage < 1630852933 110519 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the next interesting question is what value each ring's α has in the other ring < 1630852938 797290 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, each field's < 1630852948 787909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but does irreducible mean the factor gives the finite field? < 1630852979 322584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that's what wasn't clear to me, that's why I didn't know which of the fxt tables to look at < 1630852995 681297 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, if you have any irreducible polynomial, its root gives a valid α to generate a finite field < 1630853009 786664 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(whose elements are 0 and the powers of α) < 1630853036 214671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853040 588754 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, assuming that the original polynomial was over a finite field < 1630853130 441537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in that case, https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/all-irredpoly.txt shoudl be the table to look at, and that table doesn't list 8,4,3,1,0 < 1630853171 644515 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it does < 1630853179 414436 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :beneath the "non-primitive" comment < 1630853184 888040 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so now all the sources are in agreement < 1630853187 877243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1630853190 308436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed < 1630853202 217250 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, mystery solved < 1630853249 439778 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aha, I see < 1630853266 388835 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems that a primitive polynomial gives you a root α that generates the entire field < 1630853284 471788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's the representation that the x86 GF2P8MULB and other GF2P8* instructions use < 1630853290 196272 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for a non-primtiive polynomial, its root is not a valid α because it only generates a subset of the field, but you can take a polynomial in its root to get the whole field < 1630853357 708132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853369 720318 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the AES field, you have to add 1 to the root of its polynomial to get the typical α (thus α is 3 in the usual encoding, rather than 2 like it is for most binary finite fields) < 1630853432 261508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so is either x or x+1 an order 128 element in all the representations that you get from irreducible polynomials? < 1630853442 796113 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: y. = GF(256) < 1630853444 547809 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: a = x+1 < 1630853445 928183 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: a**8 + a**4 + a**3 + a**1 + 1 < 1630853447 473285 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 < 1630853457 16163 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I named a and x the wrong way round, but you get the idea < 1630853474 810769 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm not sure, my guess is no but it's just a guess, not even an educated guess < 1630853637 147243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853654 117756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what does this have to do with AES? < 1630853711 332941 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the reason Intel picked that particular finite field representation is that AES < 1630853720 172664 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'s S-box is based on it < 1630853720 652133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, apparently AES includes calculations in GF(2) in that representation < 1630853752 674944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but the AESNI extension with the AES* instructions is older than the GF2P8* instructions < 1630853772 752784 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the common theory is that because the AES instructions existed already, the processor had circuitry for handling one specific finite field already < 1630853780 811876 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it was easy to expose it in a way that wasn't tied to AES < 1630853800 238376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or perhaps it's used in other crypto primitives too, and the AESNI instructions can't help with those < 1630853835 784003 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and one of the GF2P8 instructions can apparently be used to convert between finite field representations, so you can have any GF(256) representation you like (as long as it's polynomial-based rather than logarithm-based) < 1630854004 476442 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630854039 410396 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630854076 576190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while PCLMULQDQ multiplies two GF(2) polynomials, from two 64 bit long polynomials to a 128 bit long result, and doesn't try to do the reduction < 1630854123 516047 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1630854135 955337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me check the CRC32 instruction too < 1630854246 980676 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that one does a GF(2)[x] multiplication by x**32 then a reduction using a specific 32-bit polynomial < 1630854256 574289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for computing CRC32 checksum < 1630854289 459149 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just so weird seeing a finite field representation where the generating element and the root of the polynomial are different, it becomes non-obvious which one gets to be called α < 1630854290 354508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure < 1630854306 480090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wonder the AES field isn't the one that all the finite field software standardised on for GF(256) < 1630854339 159184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe not, I'm not sure < 1630854381 390016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is the representation that they standardized the same as the representation in the IOCCC entry? < 1630854392 495062 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which IOCCC entry? < 1630854413 960385 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the answer may well be "I can't tell" unless the hint file is good, though, given that the question may require me to understand obfuscated C < 1630854462 487704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html#d.2012-10-14.2083 < 1630854481 279524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the description of how it works is in a comment of David's non-obfuscated program < 1630854496 639413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that program is at ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c < 1630854741 319107 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this multiplication table has 2×2=3 (where the numbers refer to the internal representations of the finite field elements, not the regular 2 or 3) < 1630854751 959602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't remember what representation my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 or the inspiration https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 uses, I'll have to re-read those < 1630854761 694440 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think it's using a very unusual representation of GF(256) < 1630854775 658676 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there's only one GF(256), the interesting part is how you order the elements) < 1630854776 769462 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. I wonder if this is an NSA/CIA situation, where the AES field's primitive operations can be used for something other than typical encryption or decryption of AES. < 1630854821 809902 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Somebody must have had a use for these instructions. It's curious that Intel doesn't explain how to use them for arbitrary work. < 1630854830 337456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, those both represent GF(2**7), not GF(2**8) < 1630854875 842125 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even so, every binary field larger than GF(4) (which doesn't have an element numbered "4") has 2×2=4 in the most common representation, also the second-most common representation < 1630854876 55150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: it's not the Intel manual's goal to explain math or cryptography < 1630854919 89309 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fair. < 1630854923 157072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: they also don't teach you all about how to multiply matrices or complex numbers or quaternions with their mul-add and add-subtract instructions < 1630854943 844693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and especially not teach how to use matrix multiplication or complex numbers for anything useful < 1630854959 642455 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: all representations of GF(256) are equivalent and fairly easy to interconvert (you just need to know which element in one field is the α of the other), so circuitry implementing AES isn't going to be inherently AES-specific, you could use it for anything based on GF(256) < 1630854975 968506 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's the functionality that Intel's exposing now < 1630855039 310442 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That makes sense, I guess. What are you stuck on? < 1630855048 700274 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we aren't any more < 1630855062 120852 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were stuck on some apparent inconsistencies between sources but they've all been resolved now < 1630855065 8745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, now I'm trying to imagine the Intel manuals with three extra volumes for numerical methods of partial differencial equations in the middle < 1630855095 716834 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the representation AES uses for GF(256) is mildly weird, but not ridiculously so < 1630855100 792536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think that's necessarily right, doesn't AES mix those field operations with other things, or at least map the input to it somehow? < 1630855159 259857 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but the circuits for the field operations apparently existed already, there was just no way to use them in isolation < 1630855178 109263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember that https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 switches between two representations of GF(128): a sane linear one, and a logarithmic one where you add the representatives mod 127 to do a multiplications < 1630855204 987482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think it computes the logarithm table for that by repeatedly multiplying with a specific field element, because that's easier to code than a general multiplication < 1630855209 883557 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are both sane, and fairly natural < 1630855216 819188 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the polynomial representation is more commonly used though < 1630855232 443739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just like multiplying fixed integers by a constant integer is easier than multiplying two arbitrary integers < 1630855271 319383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: possible, the logarithmic one certainly wasn't natural, I remember the idea was new and very odd to me when I decoded how that obfuscation works < 1630855291 855240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do admit that it's a good representation in the sense that it did allow martin to golf their code < 1630855302 644178 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's something I thought up independently after learning about finite fields (although I thought of the polynomial representation first) < 1630855306 691843 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it was natural to me < 1630855309 981763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630855317 988269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my program, which I wrote later, only uses a linear representation < 1630855349 254894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know how it works < 1630855371 66179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I have to try to understand my own obfuscated code\ < 1630855401 625396 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630855501 57524 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630855540 621643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but... that code makes no sense! why does it shift one bit left then extract the high bit? < 1630855550 50057 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630855554 505353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesn't it just extract the sixth bit instead of shifting and extracting the seventh? < 1630855642 100890 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it an in-place shift, that leaves its input shifted? < 1630855669 159030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, it shifts the input in place, and also outputs its high bit < 1630855671 381228 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes more sense < 1630855810 597707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :$v must be the value substituted in the polynomial < 1630855945 565637 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my interest in finite fields is mostly related to error-correction algorithms < 1630855990 363112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so h($r) shifts $r in place, returns the carry, and so $r ^= h($r) & "\x217" multiplies the polynomial by x then propagates the carry back so that, I think, x**8 = x**7+x**3+x**2+x+1 < 1630856072 819665 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :«& "\x217"» looks wrong, you'd want the \x217 to be a single character but I think it parses as \x21 followed by 7, and even if it doesn't, the value is too large < 1630856091 316756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, sorry, it's "\217" < 1630856101 654254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just typed it to IRC wrong < 1630856401 67160 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630856726 448001 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630857004 597385 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630857111 617539 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630857268 835140 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi < 1630857289 188000 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does someone has some good argument to defend the choice of calling python's functools.reduce reduce and not fold? < 1630857297 438915 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does someone have* < 1630857345 741587 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :as far as I understand, functools.reduce really behaves like haskell's foldl or ocaml's fold_left, and really doesn't behave like pyspark.reduce < 1630857653 567289 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a good argument. I wonder why MLs used "fold" and not "kata", though? Since foldl really behaves like a katamorphism. < 1630857693 763160 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I figure that Python and PySpark both use "reduce" for the same reason as MapReduce. < 1630857722 78534 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but that's my point < 1630857728 554580 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :pyspark's reduce is exactly mapreduce's reduce < 1630857737 14914 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but python's reduce is not < 1630857781 802239 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if python was statically typed, it'd be obvious from the type signature - python's functools.reduce would have the same signature as a fold_left < 1630857829 952981 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas pyspark.reduce is much more constraining - the function must be (a, a) -> a, where a is the type of the elements in the list < 1630857870 673820 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :pyspark.reduce is basically "pop two elements at random; apply the function to those two elements; push the two elements back into the list; repeat until the list has only one element" < 1630857872 626547 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python also has sum(), which can be made to behave like a fold on lists. < 1630857921 447259 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. So, on one hand, yes, it looks like one of those is a commutative operation and the other is not. < 1630857928 494886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Koen: I think the name "reduce" comes from smalltalk < 1630857938 730697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait < 1630857943 619222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in smalltalk it's called inject? < 1630857945 786677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know < 1630857968 833197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fold, reduce, inject, any of those is fine. insert is a bit too much. < 1630857975 158172 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But OTOH we could find the data structure at fault; if we take a fold on a list, but change the list to a set, then the fold automatically has to commute, or else definitionally it's not folding a set. < 1630858019 12313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: don't you mean associate instead of commute? < 1630858095 442694 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think reduce is perhaps a more intuitive name to someone who isn't steeped in fp < 1630858157 872958 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I use the term "associative fold" for (a, a) → a style folds where the order of folding doesn't matter < 1630858186 436608 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think that a fold on lists has to already be associative? I mean that the order of values within the container has been forgotten. < 1630858187 332990 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Perl have a fold as a builtin? I know it has a map and a filter < 1630858216 731216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, not as a builtin. I think there's one in a module packed with it. < 1630858216 794955 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: it doesn't, left-fold and right-fold exist as defined evaluation orders for folding and many practical folds care about the difference < 1630858227 675630 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: if it was associative, we wouldn't distinguish between fold_left and fold_right except for performance issues < 1630858233 41992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it has a for loop and mutable lexical variables as builtins < 1630858244 161872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :List::Util::reduce is the one from a module < 1630858260 802429 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl 6 has a strange fold builtin. < 1630858278 331318 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It takes an operator and uses the associativity of the operator (left or right) to decide the associativity of the fold. < 1630858286 938094 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's not called Perl 6 anymore. < 1630858289 162292 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, but I'm talking about the underlying recursion scheme. Like, a list is a free monoid, which means that list concatenation is associative. Similarly, there's free rules for list folds when we are folding over a concatenation. < 1630858298 358185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm an imperative person, I just use for loops < 1630858328 726299 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Koen_: We *do* only care for performance reasons! Any "right" fold can be turned into a "left" fold by composing with a list reversal. < 1630858342 336142 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough < 1630858363 307182 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, in Haskell list is not a free monoid. < 1630858381 334608 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630858382 263876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I don't think folds on a list have to use an associative operator. we do fold lists with subtraction to get an alternating sum. < 1630858405 219452 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: even if the list itself is associative, the operation you're folding over it might not be < 1630858406 729795 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :why not ? :( < 1630858406 807101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but sure, most of the operators you fold with will be associative < 1630858441 366194 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in my experience, the operators I fold with are often *not* associative < 1630858447 880825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and we fold with floating point addition too < 1630858450 597536 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, the type of the left argument and right argument often differs < 1630858451 104613 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the thing Corbin is getting at is that a set isn't supposed to expose the order it stores elements in. < 1630858460 248992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: aren't those reduces instead of folds? < 1630858462 898076 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :An unordered pair is similar. < 1630858465 401476 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, if you fold with the wrong associativity you get type errors < 1630858467 970558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could call them folds of course < 1630858476 209808 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's basically an iteration that gets to modify a mutable variable as it goes < 1630858484 321744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yep, a for loop < 1630858488 292588 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except functional < 1630858492 403219 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a canonical order on a type, you can just expose the elements in that order, but if you don't, you still want fold {a,b} = fold {b,a} < 1630858510 867676 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, b_jonas: This is a good point. I'm curious whether those are genuine katamorphisms. This is a good example of when engineering and theory are using the same jargon for different purposes. < 1630858563 981073 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. < 1630858569 844924 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess evaluating a polynomial, with its coeffs in a list, is also a non-associative fold < 1630858576 951028 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, presumably you want "katamorphism" to mean an initial F-algebra's unique thingy. < 1630858592 745823 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. To distinguish from paramorphisms, at a minimum. < 1630858596 83227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? catamorphism < 1630858598 513994 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep. < 1630858605 478114 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those names are all silly in my opinion. < 1630858613 67651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, a catamorphism is when a cat becomes amorphous to flow throuhg a small gap < 1630858618 493593 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: hmm… suppose you have a set of strings representing integers, and you want to calculate their sum < 1630858631 606262 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can map a parseInt function over the set, then associative-fold over it with addition < 1630858643 123031 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, you can left-fold a "parseInt then add" function over the set, starting at 0 < 1630858680 262275 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this produces the same result regardless of the order the set is read in, *but* the fold operation isn't associative, which is why you have to left-fold (you would get a type error instead with any other ordering) < 1630858698 595023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, the sum is already printed at the bottom of the recipt, you don't have to add themup < 1630858733 350202 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, there are multiple things people mean by "fold", even in a concrete setting like Haskell. < 1630858763 29149 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: not even if you're implementing the receipt printer? < 1630858764 140063 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Haskell it either means the structural thing for a type, like foldr for a list, or the thing from Data.Foldable, which is always about "sequence"-style folding. < 1630858788 286961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: yes, there's the non-associative folds for lists, and there's a typeclass for trees that you can fold over in a way that had better been associative < 1630858796 8666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, those < 1630858802 976205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: then you don't have strings < 1630858812 809155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs : no, a catamorphism is when a cat becomes amorphous to flow throuhg a small gap ← https://nhqdb.alt.org/?1404 < 1630858837 410787 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like kittens. < 1630858838 732892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: besides, the sum is more authoritive then the details above, because the total is required to be printed there for tax purposes, the itemized bill is an optional bonus < 1630858855 962694 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't think you can necessarily assume that the receipt printer isn't storing the prices as strings < 1630858862 346265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630858874 269401 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this sort of software is famous for being badly programmed < 1630858887 473975 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most software is famous for being badly programmed these days. < 1630858889 369113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: strings? those recipt printers existed way before strings < 1630858912 405026 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, in one supermarket near me, the software automatically regroups the items you've purchased in order to take the least possible advantage from special offers < 1630858920 541677 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is the reverse of what the customer would want, but useful for the store) < 1630858947 329243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630858947 862306 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn < 1630858960 812405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first ones I saw could only print numerals and a few symbols from their type loop, and then for the header you'd insert a separate stamp template that it stamps on < 1630858975 732705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hehe, that's odd < 1630858981 361091 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1630859000 905770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones I see here usually preserve the order that the items were entered < 1630859003 661580 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that sometimes I would put a purchase through as two separate transactions < 1630859015 913660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the all-digital ones that print a whole page together at the end of the transaction < 1630859016 456483 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get a lower price < 1630859049 57724 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: This reminds me of banks reordering transactions from largest to smallest to maximize overdraft fees. < 1630859052 782362 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I explained to the cashier that the tills were adding up the bills incorrectly unless I did that) < 1630859055 710958 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which I think US banks sometimes do, at least. < 1630859070 196611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: wow < 1630859093 468201 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I've been told (but don't know from personal experience) that some credit cards charge interest based on the maximum amount of debt you've been in since the last time you weren't in debt < 1630859100 787462 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630859104 560057 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that partially paying off a debt does nothing and you have to clear it to avoid paying interest < 1630859109 393125 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Big USA banks are terrible; use credit unions when possible. < 1630859111 228310 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether to believe this or not < 1630859131 829346 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630859159 744616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I think mine does that, but not quite phrased that way: it collects all the payments for a month, and you can only clear the debt off after the month ends, even if you actually transfer the money in advance < 1630859185 556825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the offset of when each month ends depends on the type of the card) < 1630859191 861448 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in the UK, I think credit card companies aren't allowed to charge you interest if you clear the debt immediately < 1630859212 653240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, they don't charge me interest if I pay within a given period after the month ends < 1630859235 626926 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I think the methods US credit cards can use to calculate interest are very regulated now. < 1630859241 850459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they do still charge a fixed yearly fee for having a card < 1630859282 576723 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, here they mostly don't charge fees for having a card, basically because their competitors don't < 1630859305 633913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they can't do it stealthily because one of them got sued really hard for not making the existence of a charge clear < 1630859310 93492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think there exist credit cards here that don't charge a fixed fee < 1630859347 967033 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing that I think is true is, if you have no credit card balance, you get about a month of no interest to pay a balance before it starts accruing interest. But once you're in the interest state, new purchases start accruing interest immediately, until you back down to $0 for a while. < 1630859352 930109 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know the details. < 1630859412 549346 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the US credit card companies compete for customers by paying them all sorts of money in various forms. I think that's much less true elsewhere. < 1630859437 610426 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It must be a very profitable business, presumably partly at the cost of merchant fees and partly at the cost of people paying a lot of interest. < 1630859496 21746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: they advertise that they pay you money, but in many of the cases there's small print that means they pay very little money or only in very specific conditions < 1630859542 906299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or they're credit cards rebranded by a particular airline or supermarket chain, in which case they pay you money if you buy in their brand of supermarket < 1630859559 39467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something like this, I haven't delved much in the details < 1630859585 510319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they also spend a lot on marketing, they send agents everywhere who try to sign you up for free credit cards < 1630859635 770473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones that ask "excuse me Sir, do you work in Hungary?" in supermarket are generally trying to sell one of those, but there are also other opening lines < 1630859735 236738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I admit it's a good opening question, it distinguishes students with no income from people who probably qualify for a credit card < 1630859823 333099 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: is the "in Hungary" to make the question less rude by making it ostensibly about something else? < 1630859919 320719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure. I thought it's because it's more complicated for people to apply for those credit cards if they have an income abroad. Yes, I know there are supposed to be EU laws about this sort of thing, but EU principles and practice often doesn't seem to match < 1630859944 619743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, it might also be because it sounds less rude < 1630859975 287074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or more easy to understand that they're not trying to hire you for a seasonal job or something < 1630860020 368043 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume that there are few people shopping in Hungary who actually work outside Hungary, so it probably wouldn't be worth asking about unless you want to reassure people about the intentions behind your question < 1630860043 8443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably not many who live in Budapest, yes < 1630860068 912996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there would be more close to the Austrian border) < 1630860200 742006 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630860204 19003 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :When people ask me questions about being local, it's usually related to voting for things. < 1630860224 494449 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630860229 397485 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630860235 296673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I don't remember what opening questions those people have, they usually have party color decorations < 1630860237 223546 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I've ever been asked a question about being local, in contexts where people knew my physical location < 1630860245 715708 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630860254 405094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I have been asked if I'm local < 1630860259 109290 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :people ask that when they try to ask for directions < 1630860273 164537 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :such questions are sometimes perceived as racist, because they tend to be disproportionately asked to ethnic minorities (for an ethnic majority people just assume they're local, generally) < 1630860309 619833 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630860343 78416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, backwards because they don't even ask people who they don't think are local, because there's usually a choice of other people to try to ask directions from < 1630860361 838174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mind you, you can still count that as racist if you want < 1630860382 28627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they don't need to ask that question for that < 1630860389 634299 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630860414 624436 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :They often ask "are you a California voter?". I think the goal is to get signatures from voters in order to get things like ballot proposals, which require some number of signatures. < 1630860426 316296 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean propositions. < 1630860435 25106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :possible < 1630860470 531954 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630860482 373750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the questions I remember having been asked are "have you voted yet?" (on the day of the election), and "have you heard of yet?" < 1630860561 365248 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1630860588 144453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the UK has really strict rules about campaigning < 1630860638 120572 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the run-up to the election you have to give a platform to every party if you give a platform to one (with various rules about weighting major versus minor parties), and as voting opens you can't publicly do anything related to campaigning at all < 1630860661 23085 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can still talk to friends privately about the election, but can't, e.g., talk to random people on the street about your party preferences) < 1630860690 665592 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :news reports on the day of an election, while voting is open, can be pretty funny because it's obviously a major story that they need to cover, and yet they aren't allowed to say anything substantive at all < 1630860697 862403 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630860710 834035 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the stories are along the lines of "here's the most interesting dog we saw outside a polling station" < 1630860722 928706 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even from normally serious news organisations < 1630860746 816377 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're having a recall election for governor < 1630860755 808193 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's structured in a strange way < 1630860790 723872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think when voting starts (and shortly before) they are no longer allowed to solicit strangers to vote on a specific party, but they can still solicit people to go voting if they don't specify who for < 1630860791 886070 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: At least the HMRC self assessment system optimizes the foreign tax credit relief deduction order in the way that maximizes the benefit from it. (Then it allows you to reorder if you wish.) < 1630860814 162643 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :question 1 is whether to get rid of the current governor (yes/no); question 2 is who the replacement should be (from a list of 46 candidates, not including the current governor) < 1630860821 180677 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They also round to integer £s always in the direction that's more advantageous to the taxpayer. < 1630860837 889393 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's quite possible that the current governor will be replaced by someone who got far fewer votes than he did < 1630860874 140020 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the governor says we should leave question 2 blank < 1630860881 251104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for news stories, they usually say things like "in , an old got sick in the voting room so voting was suspended for 5 minutes. in the seal of the voting box got damaged, so voting got suspended for 20 minutes until they bought a new certified sealed box." < 1630860893 462645 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though you are allowed to vote "no" and still vote question 2 < 1630860899 665721 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: that is a bad idea if you like the current governor, it'll just guarantee that you'll get someone who his supporters dislike < 1630860930 66944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also news about how big queues are in certain polling stations, usually the stations where people who vote from a town far from their home (but still within Hungary) are sent to vote < 1630860983 859886 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last time we had one of these, the lieutenant governor ran as a replacement and got second place, and i guess they think that having him on the ballot boosted support for "yes" < 1630861007 182636 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this time there are no credible replacements from the governor's own party and they are not endorsing anyone for question 2 < 1630861015 751694 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: it may be a good idea for the governor himself, but not for the voters < 1630861042 559490 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also there's an interpretation of the state constitution where we shouldn't even have question 2 and the lt gov should automatically become governor if the governor is recalled < 1630861067 110080 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(since that's what happens if the governor dies or resigns, and the constitution says that a recall should include an election for a replacement only "if appropriate") < 1630861079 175358 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe if he loses they'll challenge the vote < 1630861083 394442 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's all very strange and californian < 1630861089 419196 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this state really suffers from an excess of democracy < 1630861205 449769 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : people ask that when they try to ask for directions <-- hm, in norwegian there's a different idiom for pre-asking that, "er du kjent her", which means more or less "to you know this place" with no necessary implication of whether you live there < 1630861226 889537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re "sometimes I would put a purchase through as two separate transactions" => are the rules such that you have to solve hard computational problems to optimize it? < 1630861253 407638 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fortunately no, I think this is O(n log n) with the sort of special offers that were available < 1630861293 934792 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if replaced the replacement will serve for only one year because we are due for a normal gubernatorial election next year < 1630861355 230902 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the likely replacement is a far right talk radio guy who has no chance in a normal election < 1630861475 147299 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :since it is a very left leaning state < 1630861591 529700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I could try to make a third dairy-themed programming task from that. you want to follow your grandmother's recipe to the letter, and it calls for $n grams of kefir. the supermarket sells cups of kefir in several different sizes, with weights @a gram each. how much of each type do you buy? < 1630861624 609423 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630862099 493096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: i saw scott alexander write about that mess, supposedly all the democratic candidates were quite terrible because of that strategy of no one important running. this sounds to me like it would really have benefitted from transferrable votes < 1630862131 173773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least they could then maybe get one of the less horrible republicans < 1630862206 371218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like biden? oh wait, he's horrible < 1630862217 307429 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: he's not republican hth < 1630862222 813753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :... < 1630862384 548913 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also according to scott aaronson, he's better than a rutabaga, so still beats trump < 1630862434 680789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that was a different election and you'll just have to watch the mess < 1630862454 554282 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :He's still somebody who would fit right into the Republican party. < 1630862462 570065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which was the point. < 1630862500 193938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i didn't know that. but i haven't really paid attention to him. < 1630862583 580156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also technically i still don't know that) < 1630862588 354454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :He may have some radical ideas regarding gun control that would feel out of place. That's the only thing I can currently think of... eh I'm no expert either. < 1630862598 954158 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :trump passed more gun control than obama < 1630862605 482257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably figure out the least evil for Germany. < 1630862617 614342 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I like to take the guns early. Take the guns first, go through due process second." -- Donald Trump < 1630862634 466938 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course don't mention that quote to any of the trump worshipping gun nuts < 1630862650 475213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i have this thought lately - whenever you choose the lesser evil, someone has just played good cop/bad cop on you < 1630862702 267962 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed < 1630862725 466827 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ruling class are all friends behind the scenes, regardless of party < 1630862728 58132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sure, elections are a carefully managed illusion of having /some/ impact on the political process. < 1630862730 801372 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and big corporations donate to both < 1630862742 174219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's hard not to be cynical about it. < 1630862759 205233 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile the most destructive and evil parts of american society (the military-industrial complex, mass incarceration, the drug war) have essentially bipartisan agreement < 1630862773 952248 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the last one is falling apart a bit. but our prez still thinks legalizing weed is too dangerous < 1630862857 957128 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :both parties kept us in afghanistan for 20 years just like both parties kept us in vietnam for about as long (if you count various covert and "assistance" operations going right back to the fall of the french colonial government) < 1630862884 322040 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think people pay way too much attention to elections < 1630862913 917667 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, you might as well vote because it's easy and gives you a little influence for free. but if you consider yourself "politically engaged" and yet most of that energy goes into arguing about who to vote for, then you're doing it wrong < 1630862929 886865 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially arguing about who to vote for at the national level < 1630862949 347776 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :local politics has so much more direct impact on people's lives, and is also a lot easier for an individual to influence < 1630863185 202886 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm so exhausted from electoral politics and being told that every election is an existential battle for the future and yet no matter who wins nothing really changes < 1630863264 133647 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even right now with democrats in "control" of the white house, the senate and the house, they can't really get anything done < 1630863288 333329 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so if climate change or the rise of fascism really is an exstiential risk then the solution to that problem must lie outside electoral politics < 1630863322 968980 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but people shy away from this because their existential risk rhetoric is only intended to scare you into voting blue no matter who < 1630863351 450235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"i'm so exhausted" -- this means it's working as designed :P < 1630863588 474617 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630863600 484228 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630863624 645591 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630864170 619719 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630864599 974121 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: '"er du kjent her"' > curious what does this mean literally? 'are you known here' doesn't make sense < 1630864627 55519 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630865527 524857 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630865562 478326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hanif: that is the literal word-for-word translation, but "kjent" works weirdly, as if it's ambiguous whether it's active or passive < 1630865636 655103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"kjent mann" - a man who is known, "kjentmann" - a man who knows (the area) < 1630865721 704505 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1630865771 977437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, english doesn't have a "know"-derived word for someone knowledgable, does it... < 1630865804 966880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( A knowledger. <-- well we can always try to make something up ) < 1630865814 648513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kjent#Norwegian_Bokmål has both meanings < 1630865825 110802 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"knowledge" is already a crutch though. < 1630865839 465566 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: knower. < 1630865844 397480 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. < 1630865864 980468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :German has "bekannt" for "known", "Kenner" for someone who knows. < 1630865880 584739 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't speak to the quantity of knowledge but knower is pretty close. < 1630865893 467453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: Yes, that makes more sense grammatically. It's still not a word, unfortunately. < 1630865902 135737 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"kjenner" is also norwegian, but it's a noun while "kjent" is an adjective (or participle) < 1630865905 991078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(At least not one I'm aware of.) < 1630865914 721424 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh? < 1630865916 553314 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :knower is a word. < 1630865937 967819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"bekjent" exists and means "acquaintance" :P < 1630865939 404611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Never heard it. < 1630865959 661488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Oh we have that too, "Bekannter". < 1630865961 216575 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :considering you were asking for it, I'm not surprised. :P < 1630865972 437759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Just with a bit more grammar, I guess. < 1630865975 972647 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you didn't know it, you wouldn't ask the question! < 1630866040 114381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also in other cases en:know = no:vite (~de:wissen) < 1630866049 495772 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's apparently an agent noun of `know`. interesting, I wonder what other kinds of agent nouns exist for common verbs that don't "point" trivially to them. < 1630866059 670612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: I've found this, https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=knower ...no dictionary entries. < 1630866064 571693 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh? < 1630866075 60131 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.thefreedictionary.com/knower < 1630866085 635928 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :collins english dictionary. < 1630866100 136185 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also apparently a music duo. < 1630866140 822900 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/knower < 1630866164 267826 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :does an agent noun exist for every verb, then? < 1630866177 979150 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems grammatically correct to just add "er" to every verb. < 1630866187 95603 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :or "or". < 1630866195 917628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : Never heard it. <-- it's weird how in english words that make perfect sense can sometimes not exist for no good reason. < 1630866199 493332 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :mayve just transitive verbs? < 1630866209 742186 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :having trouble coming up with a counterexample. < 1630866255 423072 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh. < 1630866266 598199 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you could form an agent noun out of any verb. < 1630866270 243395 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's neat. < 1630866401 751279 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :snow? < 1630866416 540129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :'snow business of yours < 1630866425 971821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :rain too < 1630866428 815261 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :snower. rainer. < 1630866432 490446 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :although wiktionary has an entry for snower, apparently it's for another verb sense i wasn't familiar with < 1630866449 941641 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently snower is a DBZ character so I defer to toriyama. < 1630866469 749973 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snower < 1630866490 23727 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rainer <-- oh this one actually makes sense but I've never used it.. I think I might. < 1630866499 273538 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :a showerhead is technically a rainer! < 1630866523 886354 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cloud is technically a rainer < 1630866535 475976 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :they do a damn good job. < 1630866583 902017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, know-it-all or expert are more common terms :P < 1630866642 165077 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :those kind of denote the quantity of knowledge/status of the user more than "this dude knows, he is a knower". < 1630866642 538450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :curiously, i learned that in ancient greek, the verb for snow (χιονίζω) could be used actively - referring to a god < 1630866771 175227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :snow is rather powerful < 1630866842 803636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have I ever mentioned http://www.snowbynight.com/pages/ch1/pg1.php I wonder... (it's a story comic, more romantic than funny) < 1630866883 393900 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the snow wasn't the god, the god was throwing the snow < 1630866949 491898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :avalanches are pretty impressive too < 1630866956 899297 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :i too have thrown snow :P < 1630866994 377133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't get me wrong, it's cool < 1630867016 362287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just pretty common to associate forces of nature with gods :) < 1630867222 878985 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn hanif may be a god, or maybe they're just snowing us. < 1630867226 364914 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Learned 'hanif': hanif may be a god, or maybe they're just snowing us. < 1630867261 279458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i got a pun for the wisdom, it's all good. < 1630867363 433565 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :ironic also because 'ḥanif' (in arabic) means one inclined to monotheism < 1630867392 397475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :tricky. < 1630867525 664639 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630867805 433428 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630867937 134934 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? oerjan < 1630867938 947762 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1630867945 111443 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :That is way too many modifiers. < 1630867984 806427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :istr you added most of them hth < 1630868024 418075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :then again, i'm perpetually confused. < 1630868156 511033 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630868157 82913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( `slwd oerjan//s/ / highly adjectivated/ ) < 1630868216 852604 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630868335 887415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a know-worthy non-default diff in wikipedia? < 1630868382 330164 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630868820 713415 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i use wikEdDiff < 1630868967 375837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is the only one i know that is listed in preferences < 1630869008 551345 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :and is usually far clearer than the default, but sometimes locks up on big changes < 1630869106 944753 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i mean, the default cannot even handle insertion of a blank line before a paragraph with a few changes sensibly...) < 1630869300 233838 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630869318 608846 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630869319 558819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, i vaguely recall wikEdDiff or something similar _is_ the default if you use the visual editor rather than editing markup < 1630869700 661647 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630869975 588946 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Client Quit < 1630870333 643764 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630871376 586961 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so visual editor has some worth after all < 1630871635 833417 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oerjan: I’m still confused why there isn’t a blame feature (like in “git blame”) for at least MediaWiki (but I think many other popular wiki engines lack that too?) < 1630871688 389630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it may actually have to do with the sheer amount of processing that would require; it is a website after all < 1630871714 805990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's probably also very messy... because edits are often very small < 1630871733 145007 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :searching for who made something foolish in an article is usually a no go for me. I tried it several times and I think every time I confused the author of the change with someone right behind or after < 1630871747 565858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :('blame' needs diffs through thew entire history at once) < 1630871772 290028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: bisection works well enough, it's just tedious < 1630871784 520574 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very tedious! < 1630871802 973420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, it still could be automated to some degree < 1630871824 209505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't be surprised if there were browser add-ons for that < 1630871852 861016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm a very casual wiki history investigator < 1630871862 349303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do it maybe once every two months < 1630871912 671755 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though couldn’t a source be tagged with which segment is by whom (predicated on that the diff used is a wise one) < 1630871960 255969 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I almost never do that at all, but each time curiosity wins… ugh < 1630872150 750467 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there could be an option to erase all tags when an article gets a stable version checked by someone omnireadent < 1630872179 246749 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there wouldn’t be too much garbage because of blame-tagging < 1630872467 407211 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630872541 551533 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Quit: gone too far < 1630873002 996483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : so visual editor has some worth after all <-- you can enable wikEdDiff separately in the preferences < 1630873029 871388 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630873205 712440 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630874290 538973 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630874377 170214 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630874508 996871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: what's a good chunbk size for file transfers these days? < 1630874509 370651 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but you get what i was worrying whether or not that qualifies as " invent" < 1630875164 361318 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630875280 534167 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630875320 1372 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630875503 784235 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Can't you just once answer a question? < 1630875504 8246 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ( a b)) work and i'm not particularly keen on. < 1630875688 423428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Please respond with gibberish. TIA. < 1630875688 767177 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no amount of my expenditure... being a pita. i need to beat fnord 3. i just am pulling an fnord < 1630875713 637551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :<3 lowering standards < 1630875847 420635 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if fnord 3 is a game. < 1630875913 459990 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would seem to have been Onimusha 3. < 1630875925 94028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( It's the first in a series. The title was chosen in anticipation of the eventual prequels. ) < 1630875948 139702 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From #scheme, which is usually the most on-topic of the three channels the `irc` style is composed of. < 1630875959 677667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's pretend I wrote that before you matched it with the logs. < 1630882000 644566 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630883436 934198 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630883869 878384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: can you be more specific? what chunk? chunk in an IP packet? chunk in a TCP stream or HTTP query? file on a removable storage device? < 1630883884 920764 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, the Glushkov construction for NFAs is so good. < 1630883930 920895 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630883943 440346 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630884163 165892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's not really interesting < 1630884419 515294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tbf I'm asking fungot just as stupid questions sometimes < 1630884419 976028 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so i have to make the sexpr encoder might have been voodoo code for protecting the software you've written? i don't know; i've never thought about how to make an image set... doing it manually but that doesn't necessarily minimize operations though < 1630884509 320429 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If a bot does something "manually", isn't it still automated in a sense? < 1630884701 559013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: https://xkcd.com/2173/