←2021-09-06 2021-09-07 2021-09-08→ ↑2021 ↑all
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02:49:05 <xylochoron[m]> Hi there
02:49:17 <Corbin> Evening.
02:50:07 <xylochoron[m]> How's it going
02:50:09 <xylochoron[m]> So I recently wrote some code that compiles a Turing machine to cyclic tag https://github.com/esopsis/Turing-Machine-to-Cyclic-Tag
02:50:19 <xylochoron[m]> I put a link to it on the cyclic tag esolang page also
02:50:29 <xylochoron[m]> Just thought this might be a place to share that :-)
02:52:54 <xylochoron[m]> By the way I also found a powerpoint presentation online about a person compiling lambda calculus to a Turing machine. I contacted the researcher and he says he's working on a paper to publish about that www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/limits%20to%20computability/SKI%20combinators%20(really)%20are%20%20Turing%20complete.pptx
02:53:16 <xylochoron[m]> s/lambda/combinators/, s/calculus//
03:22:19 <Corbin> Good times.
03:29:29 <nakilon> are you also already building some machine here with these series of substitutions lol 05:53:16 <xylochoron[m]> s/lambda/combinators/, s/calculus//
03:31:38 <nakilon> can't see pptx, he might want to convert it to pdf for sharing
03:32:20 <nakilon> I mean I probably can open pptx with Keynote but it would be handier to read in browser
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03:43:18 <Corbin> Ben Lynn's notes might be interesting: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/lambda.html
04:00:20 <nakilon> I miss Google Codesearch -- github can't regexes (
04:17:20 <oerjan> <arseniiv> oh my poor grammar <-- that grammar looked fine to me hth
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06:23:41 <hanif> int-e: nice problem
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07:08:56 <nakilon> "Google Cloud does not believe in swap" confirmed: https://stackoverflow.com/q/58210222/322020
07:10:57 <int-e> . o O ( vm.swappiness = 0 )
07:11:09 <shachaf> Good, swap is mostly a bad idea for a server.
07:11:36 <nakilon> much better when he just hangs until reboot
07:12:34 <int-e> VMs doing their own swapping is a bit insane, when there's more swapping happening at the hypervisor level
07:13:29 <nakilon> I'm not sure we know how Google Cloud hypervisor works
07:14:31 <int-e> Even on my PC I'd like to fully disable swap. But I've learned that Linux effectively swaps anyway, because it will release unmodified mmap-ed regions to satisfy requests for fresh memory. So... without swap... rather than being able to swap out more or less everything, you end up swapping out code pages. This is *worse* than actually having a bit of swap space.
07:14:57 <nakilon> I suppose your PC has more RAM than a Free Tier server
07:15:13 <int-e> So I compromised on 8G swap for 32G swap.
07:15:22 <int-e> for 32G main memory.
07:15:24 <int-e> Yes, yes it does.
07:16:21 <nakilon> ping
07:16:21 <velik> pong
07:17:08 <int-e> I understand the desire for enabling swap on small VMs. I was arguing from a perspective of performance.
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07:21:01 <int-e> I actually have a hack somewhere that hooks into mmap and replaces anonymous mappings by file-based mappings.
07:21:07 <int-e> So yes, I can definitely relate.
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07:34:15 <shachaf> You can mlock memory that you care about, I suppose.
07:34:32 <shachaf> It's a good point about Linux releasing code pages, though, hmm.
07:35:22 <shachaf> It just treats it as ordinary page cache memory, even when you fully disable overcommit and swap? That seems bad.
07:35:37 <shachaf> I guess it's hard for it to do anything else.
07:37:57 <int-e> I've never done the experiment of disabling overcommit as well. For a long time I couldn't because of Haskell's RTS, but it may work these days? It still allocates a huge address space...
07:45:29 <shachaf> It's possible to reserve address space without committing it in Linux, but hardly anyone does it.
07:45:48 <shachaf> And it's pretty unusual so I don't think you can e.g. ask how much memory a process has committed.
07:46:30 <int-e> rts/posix/OSMem.c:# define RESERVE_FLAGS MAP_NORESERVE | MAP_ANON | MAP_PRIVATE;
07:46:41 <nakilon> google indexes esolang wiki by ip for some reason https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A46.43.2.108
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07:51:34 <int-e> So ghc has been doing that since ghc-8.0... patch is from 2015. Still fairly recent.
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07:52:54 <int-e> nakilon: yes, and also site:techne.zem.fi
07:53:43 <nakilon> Techne (Greek: τέχνη, tékhnē, 'craft, art'; Ancient Greek: [tékʰnɛː], Modern Greek: [ˈtexni] (About this soundlisten)) is a term in philosophy that refers to making or doing.
07:54:53 <int-e> one way google might discover such links is via the channel logs... we had trouble updating the esolangs.org domain at some point so more direct methods to access the wiki were mentioned.
07:56:19 <nakilon> I suppose you can disable this index either via robots.txt or via google web search panel when you own the domain
07:56:24 <int-e> I don't know whether google actively scans the IPv4 space for webservers... they definitely have the resources to do it; the question is whether they see any value in doing so.
07:56:37 <nakilon> I don't remember the exact name of those services
08:01:18 <nakilon> is there any wiki bot here?
08:01:22 <nakilon> I mean wikipedia
08:01:58 <nakilon> (though there may be an option to query any wiki)
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08:23:23 <shachaf> Usually you need a host header anyway to access a website, even if you have an IP address.
08:27:45 <nakilon> are there any bots here who remember the context? so you could issue a command to process some previous message
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10:12:54 <fizzie> HackEso (well, HackEgo) used to have access to channel logs, so you could do that sort of thing through there, but it got lost during some reshuffling (they're not logically same systems any more). Sort of a shame; some of the things you could do were clever enough. Though it also encouraged "brute-force" solutions that just run a grep over the last two decades of history, which was always pretty
10:12:56 <fizzie> slow.
10:15:29 <oerjan> `seen logs
10:15:31 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt': No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen logs ever
10:16:36 <fizzie> Right, that one does (did?) a "most recent 30 files" by default to be a little faster about it.
10:19:08 <fizzie> I was planning to "fix" the logs access thing by just having some sort of an API at logs.esolangs.org and poking a hole for that for HackEso, but haven't gotten around to. Maybe I should as a first step do something smaller. The logs server's already got an in-memory queue of the last 1000 events for stalker mode purposes, it could just expose that as a "recent context" endpoint.
10:19:54 <int-e> . o O ( touch /var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt )
10:20:17 <int-e> probably a bad idea; the error message is a reminder that it's not working :)
10:20:17 <oerjan> `touch /var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt
10:20:19 <HackEso> touch: cannot touch '/var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt': No such file or directory
10:22:30 <nakilon> not necessary all the logs, but bot could remember just last 100/1000 messages rotated
10:23:09 <nakilon> in ram
10:23:33 <fizzie> Granted, doing it through logs.esolangs.org would still have a bit of a race-condition-y feel since they'd be channel logs as seen by different IRC clients. But I think multibot won't make it particularly easy to do that "locally".
10:27:27 <oerjan> they were different clients last time too, i think
10:27:57 <oerjan> at least, different nicks
10:28:05 <fizzie> Probably, yeah.
10:35:30 <fizzie> I think I don't even have the umlbox-mudem thing wired up for the weird custom multiplexing of TCP and Unix domain sockets over a "serial port" it does.
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11:28:00 <esolangs> [[ight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87928&oldid=86667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+185) Light interpreters
11:29:17 <esolangs> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87929&oldid=73972 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) !
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12:54:16 <nakilon> btw here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq it chapter "What is swappiness and how do I change it?" it says that servers have this option set higher meaning to push memory to swap more
13:15:48 <fizzie> On the topic of esolangs.org appearing under other names, yeah, I've configured the server to "default" to the site with the wiki on it for any host header it doesn't recognize, and never looked into search consequences. Wonder if I could convince MediaWiki to do rel=canonical or a sitemap. Wikipedia does that as a <link> tag on the page, so.
13:16:19 <fizzie> Turning on $wgEnableCanonicalServerLink should do it.
13:16:49 <wib_jonas> that's probably a good idea
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13:20:38 <fizzie> $ curl -s http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge | grep 'rel="canonical"'
13:20:40 <fizzie> <link rel="canonical" href="https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge"/>
13:20:42 <fizzie> Maybe that'll help.
13:22:42 <wib_jonas> yeah. although for pages with long names, I'll still keep using the article number like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=13784 , who cares what the canonical says\
13:22:44 <nakilon> ``` curl -s http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge | grep 'rel="canonical"'
13:22:48 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
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13:28:54 <Sgeo> `olist 1243
13:28:55 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1243.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:36:08 <wib_jonas> perlbot get https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=13784 //link[@rel="canonical"]/@href
13:36:08 <perlbot> wib_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_a_formal_language,_which_comprises_a_set_of_instructions_that_produce_various_kinds_of_output.
13:36:14 <wib_jonas> nakilon: ^
13:37:14 <wib_jonas> perlbot get http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge //link[@rel="canonical"]/@href
13:37:15 <perlbot> wib_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
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14:22:34 <Sgeo> Is it just me or does this website have property 3 wrong? https://www.web-formulas.com/Math_Formulas/Linear_Algebra_Properties_of_Inverse_Matrices.aspx
14:25:46 <wib_jonas> Sgeo: um, what are the assumptions here? are the matrix elements from a field? property 3 says "If A has an inverse matrix, then there is only one inverse matrix." which sounds right to me, at least over a field
14:26:12 <fizzie> wib_jonas: That's the seventh longest page title we have. The longest is: Unary_Except_Every_Zero_Is_Replaced_with_the_Title_of_This_Programming_Language_or,_Alternately,_Is_Replaced_with_the_Smallest_Counter-Example_to_the_Goldbach_Conjecture._Compilers_and_Interpreters_Only_Have_to_Implement_the_Former_Option
14:26:13 <wib_jonas> (probably still true without, but I can't swear on it)
14:26:36 <wib_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but that one also keeps changing. I know there are redirects, but still.
14:28:08 <wib_jonas> and it's longer than Real Fast Nora at least
14:28:20 <Sgeo> Oh I miscounted
14:28:32 <Sgeo> I meant this line, which is step 3 (not property 3): "3. If A1 and A2 have inverses, then A1 A2 has an inverse and (A1 A2)-1 = A1-1 A2-1
14:28:33 <Sgeo> "
14:28:41 <Sgeo> *statement 3
14:29:56 <fizzie> Yes, pretty sure that should be (A1 A2)^-1 = A2^-1 A1^-1.
14:30:03 <wib_jonas> Sgeo: yes, that sounds wrong. it even says the right statement earlier: "If A and B are nonsingular matrices, then AB is nonsingular and (AB)^(-1) = B^(-1) A^(-1)"
14:33:40 <Sgeo> Trying to leave feedback
14:33:41 <Sgeo> Value cannot be null. Parameter name: Challenge
14:33:44 <Sgeo> I don't see a captcha
14:35:00 <Sgeo> They're using Recaptcha, but the URL for it is 404ing
14:35:57 <Sgeo> I... could hack the correct Recaptcha URL in place
14:36:20 <wib_jonas> Sgeo: nah, they're probably using a library for Recaptcha that Google has obsoleted twice since
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16:30:17 <Sgeo> If I have a translation-rotation matrix that needs to be multiplied on the right, is there a way to turn it into a matrix that can be multiplied on the left?
16:56:42 <nakilon> b_jonas can you ddos with perlbot?
16:57:22 <nakilon> or is that a special command? I see it also apploes xpath
17:12:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's not special, you can call it multiple times together, but only in series
17:13:18 <b_jonas> and there's a time limit for how long each of your commands will execute
17:13:36 <b_jonas> so it's probably not a very efficient way to DDOS anything
17:14:24 <b_jonas> I guess you could try to loop it by calling a command on its own web interface, in a quine way
17:15:27 <b_jonas> but that probably requires POST, which this doesn't do
17:15:43 <b_jonas> so it would be more efficient if you just make a webpage that people load and some javascript or frames on it send requests
17:15:49 <b_jonas> or even images, fewer people block those
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19:15:44 <fizzie> Bit of a random question, but does anyone have a gut feeling as to what sort of indoors range you should expect from a BLE device? Like that nRF52840 SoC or something? I've been speculating about a wireless doohickey, and wondering if it should be that, or wifi, or some other kind of radio.
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19:33:07 <b_jonas> I don't know, but indoor range for microwave stuff might depend on what your walls are made of
19:34:05 <b_jonas> my bluetooth headphones could communicate from the living room to the work room, but I'v no idea if that involves BLE or just other Bluetooth
19:34:48 <fizzie> Yeah. The interior walls are just drywall-style materials, but there's also a bunch of kitchen appliances between where I'd most logically put two endpoints of a connection.
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19:35:43 <fizzie> I think I read somewhere that BLE doesn't include audio... although a quick search suggests there's now an announced "Bluetooth LE Audio" standard as well.
19:35:45 <b_jonas> here in this apartment the walls are real reinforced concrete, but the waves might have chosen to go through the walls
19:36:07 <b_jonas> s/through the walls/through the doors/
19:36:30 <b_jonas> probably not BLE in that case
19:37:29 <fizzie> There's apparently some sort of a long-range mode in Bluetooth 5 that does forward error correction and trades some power use (in the sense of lower data rate -> longer transmissions) to better range.
19:38:32 <b_jonas> what does forward error connection mean? don't all these wireless protocols use some error connection? but I don't know what "forward" means here
19:40:38 <fizzie> If I got it right, all flavours of Bluetooth except this new-in-5 "LE Coded" encoding only do error *detection* (and retransmissions), not error *correction*.
19:40:50 <fizzie> https://www.bluetooth.com/blog/exploring-bluetooth-5-going-the-distance/ "Bluetooth low energy at version 4 does not perform error correction, only error detection. Bluetooth 5 introduces an error correction capability."
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19:51:38 <keegan> apparently "forward" error correction refers to the fact that it only uses the forward channel and not a reverse channel (requesting resends)
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←2021-09-06 2021-09-07 2021-09-08→ ↑2021 ↑all