←2021-09-14 2021-09-15 2021-09-16→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:07:53 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer
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03:22:09 <Soni> hmm hey, is infinite minesweeper an esolang?
04:08:11 <zzo38> I suppose it is of interest to esolang, whether or not it counts as a esolang
04:09:04 <zzo38> (It isn't always entirely clear what is count as "an esolang", maybe)
04:49:48 <Corbin> Depends on what happens when a mine is clicked. Traditionally, there's no backtracking, putting it in P computationally.
04:55:59 <zzo38> OK, although I thought it was that they only find where they know there aren't any bombs
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04:58:37 <Corbin> There are some configurations which require guessing. I don't know if those can be defined away.
04:59:12 <zzo38> O, yes, you are right
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05:47:51 <esolangs> [[Meowlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88066 * Wixette * (+5953) Created page with "Meowlang is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed for cats. == Examples == === Fibonacci === A Meowlang program to print the Fibonacci numbers: <pre> MeowMeowMeowM..."
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05:53:05 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88067&oldid=88057 * Wixette * (+15)
06:06:20 <esolangs> [[Meowlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88068&oldid=88066 * Wixette * (+206)
06:14:08 <esolangs> [[User:Wixette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88069&oldid=88052 * Wixette * (+35)
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07:07:00 <hanif> nakilon: i think fizzie's got it: code golf stack exchange is a good place to advertise your lang. you can FGITW new code golf challenges, start infinite bounties for answers in your lang https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5243 , nominate your lang for the 'language of the month' https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/q/19279 , and/or start a chatroom for golfing in your lang
07:11:52 <hanif> oh, and having an online runner for your esolang helps
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07:19:16 <nakilon> online runner is a good idea
07:30:14 <nakilon> https://ljkrakauer.com/LJK/essays/englishukus.htm -- we say "lift" and "chips"
07:33:10 <nakilon> btw I have a list of ~20 words that are used in Sourthern-Ukrainian dialect of Russian that are not being understood elsewhere -- part of them is from the Zapor. Cossacks slang
07:34:10 <nakilon> also interesting that most of those words can be found in Wiktionary and have example of being used in literature so I assume writers traveled more or idk, but definitely had larger vocabulary than modern usual people
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07:38:28 <nakilon> few years ago when meeting with my Crimean cousin she said "can you imagine? people here in Moscow don't know the word 'skibka'!" (it's how you call a slice of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galia_melon)
07:40:29 <nakilon> I checked it on my friend -- yeah, she didn't know it; then recently I used it in a dialog with a person from Bashkiria, also was confused, then I looked up and voila! https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BA%D0%B0
07:42:23 <nakilon> heh, though both examples of usage in works of literature are by writers from Ukraine, hm
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08:20:04 <nakilon> (found that word in a classic "Dal's Explanatory Dictionary" (1863) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_Dictionary_of_the_Living_Great_Russian_Language but in a bit weird coupling with meanings)
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09:27:25 <nakilon> I wonder if there is any article about or an example how the first practice of making a ./lib/ dir appeared
09:28:29 <nakilon> like if someone made lib_some.c, lib_another_one.c, and then changed _ with / -- this is a historical event I imagine and would like to see described
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09:55:23 <nakilon> here in 1969 I see only "sys_lib" http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/multics/swenson/6906.multics-condensed-guide.pdf
09:57:22 <nakilon> it's already "lib" in 1974 https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V5/usr/lib
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10:07:15 <nakilon> wow didn't see this before https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/Dennis_v1/UNIX_ProgrammersManual_Nov71.pdf
10:07:54 <nakilon> not OCRed (
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10:19:44 <nakilon> OCRed here https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html
10:27:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shinsenai * New user account
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10:50:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88070&oldid=88062 * Shinsenai * (+242) /* Introductions */
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11:24:19 <nakilon> if you take an example program calculating the factorial it holds a value Accumulator starting from 1 and a value Counter starting with stdin numeral and ending at 0 breaking the loop; essentially writing befunge or rasel code involves deciding which one of those two values should higher and lower on stack so it would use the least number of
11:24:19 <nakilon> read/write/swap instructions to shorten and so simplify the code; I imagine if you add a Threading here, just one thread that would work on decrementing the Counter and checking it for zero it would make it possible to eliminate most (if not all) of the swap instructions
11:26:29 <nakilon> essentially by replacing the swapping with read/write from the thread (which has own clean stack used only for the local needs); now I only think if threads should be arbitrary named or it's enough to have a stack of threads and pushing/pulling from one of two neighbor threads
11:27:40 <nakilon> the idea is that introducing the threads won't make a program any bigger but would rather split it into reusable pieces of primitives
11:28:54 <nakilon> and the same piece of code can spawn more than one thread even for different purposes, like a piece of library
11:36:22 <nakilon> also rasel's program space immutability with pull/push be the only way to exchange data would make it have no race conditions
11:38:36 <nakilon> hm, not until multiple threads spawn other threads so you don't know how to order them, hm
11:39:09 <nakilon> maybe it should be a tree of threads so no cycles
11:42:17 <nakilon> so if thread A spawns threads B, C, D, and then issues the instruction "pull" it waits until B is pushing anything until B is dead, only then switches to pulling from C, then D
11:47:07 <esolangs> [[Velato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88071&oldid=51080 * Shinsenai * (+100) Added link to a web frontend for the .NET Velato compiler in the Compilers and Interpreters section
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13:30:00 <int-e> fungot: wtf is "ink recognition", and why is OCR no longer good enough?
13:30:01 <fungot> int-e: write a procedure ( shift proc) where proc is the exception system. but it makes _me_ want to scream
13:31:01 <int-e> hmm, quite coherent
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14:19:59 <nakilon> there should be arrrrrrghs and kwarrrrrrghs
14:21:47 <nakilon> оust realised "lunatic" isn't "moonatic" for some reason
14:21:49 <nakilon> *just
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15:21:32 <fizzie> int-e: I was under the impression "ink recognition" is specifically about handwriting on a surface that captures the timing of the strokes (meaning you get to use slightly different algorithms), while OCR *could* be about that but is more general and typically performed on raster scans of printed materials.
15:22:57 <nakilon> lol velik can't reconnect because "we are enabling SASL for some IP ranges sometimes"
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15:46:07 <nakilon> hwh, btw, just noticed that this thing in GCP worked: velik (~velik@nakilon.pro) -- it's in the settings of Compute Engine
15:46:37 <nakilon> even I don't have just cool hostname like bot now has _<>
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16:12:46 <esolangs> [[Meowlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88072&oldid=88068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Interpreters */ Cats for cats
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16:14:20 <int-e> fizzie: thansk
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17:48:15 <nakilon> looks like for languages other than "en" wikidata can have no description
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17:48:35 <nakilon> \wp-fi esolang
17:48:36 <velik> Esoteerinen ohjelmointikieli tai esolang on ohjelmointikieli, jotka on suunniteltu testaamaan ohjelmointikielen rakenteen rajoja. Yleensä tavoitteena on osoittaa erikoisia tapoja joilla systeemi voi olla Turing-täydellinen, eli kykenevä simuloimaan minkä tahansa muun tietokoneen tai ohjelman toimintaa. Esoteerisen ohjelmointikielen tarkoitus voi olla myös hauskuuttaa. Esimerkiksi ... https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteerinen_ohjelmointikieli
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18:18:19 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88073&oldid=88045 * Nakilon * (+432) added examples for \wp and \wa
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19:20:58 <fizzie> `tervetuloa
19:21:01 <HackEso> Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
19:26:11 <nakilon> is it called suomi?
19:26:19 <nakilon> what is average word length?
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19:52:41 <b_jonas> `? welcome.fi
19:52:43 <HackEso> Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
19:52:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: ^ the wisdom name that the command cats gives away the language
19:54:24 <nakilon> yeah I realise it's finnish, just wasn't sure that suomi is
19:54:44 <nakilon> is it the same or
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20:01:38 <oerjan> suomi is finnish for finnish hth
20:02:30 <nakilon> like Magyar?
20:02:35 <oerjan> precisely
20:02:42 <oerjan> or norsk
20:03:12 <oerjan> . o O ( or english )
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20:04:53 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/wisdom; cat welcome*
20:04:54 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) \ Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <https://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon
20:04:56 <b_jonas> no
20:05:08 <nakilon> I wonder if "...sk" is related to suffix "...ск" in Russian
20:05:09 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/wisdom; ls -df welcome*
20:05:11 <HackEso> welcome \ welcome.bork \ welcome.de \ welcome.eo \ welcome.es \ welcome.fi \ welcome.fr \ welcome.is \ welcome.ja \ welcome.nb \ welcome.nl \ welcome.ru \ welcome.sv \ welcome.tr
20:05:37 <oerjan> nakilon: i wouldn't be surprised
20:05:56 <nakilon> "...ский" means something like "belonging to ...", and there are plenty of town names ending on "sk", "rsk", "nsk"
20:06:28 <nakilon> `welcome.ru
20:06:29 <HackEso> welcome.ru? No such file or directory
20:06:58 <nakilon> `? welcome.ru
20:06:59 <HackEso> ​Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
20:07:07 <oerjan> i don't think we have a lot of such town names, but -sk is common suffix for "of nationality". russisk = russian, tysk = german, engelsk = english, svensk = swedish, japansk = japanese
20:07:19 <oerjan> *a common
20:07:31 <nakilon> why tysk? _Oo
20:07:57 <oerjan> nakilon: german in german is "deutsch" which is related
20:08:08 <oerjan> plus/minus a couple historical sound changes
20:10:37 <fizzie> German in Finnish is "saksa" (for the language) or "saksalainen" (for the nationality). Or "Saksa" for the country. Wonder where that's from.
20:10:42 <oerjan> -sk is also used for making adjectives from some other things.
20:10:47 <fizzie> "From Old Saxon Sahsa (“a Saxon, a Low German”), a tribe/people inhabiting northern Germany (not to be confused with modern Saxony." Oh.
20:11:12 <oerjan> Sachsen is still a german region (possibly state)
20:11:12 <nakilon> yeah, russisk = русский, japansk = японский; though not only about nationality but also for example, "belonging to programming" is "програмный", but "related to folks who are programmers" is "программистский"
20:12:22 <oerjan> we also add -isk to -ist, e.g. marxistisk
20:12:32 <nakilon> anglo-sakses were who settled the England is what we studied
20:12:43 <fizzie> We also make Sweden -> Ruotsi. "From archaic ruotsi (“Swede”), borrowed from Old Swedish *roþs- (“related to rowing”) (compare modern Swedish ro (“to row”)); related to Old Norse Roþrslandi (“the land of rowing”), older name of Roslagen from where much of the Swedish-speaking population on the west coast of Finland originates."
20:12:50 <fizzie> In other words, all our country names are wrong.
20:12:58 <oerjan> and i'm not sure whether that's strictly the same suffix or just how we borrow greek/latin -ic-
20:12:58 <nakilon> on lessons of "country study" https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5&lang=ru-en
20:14:12 <nakilon> marxistisk / марксистский
20:14:45 <fizzie> And Russia -> Venäjä, "from Proto-Germanic *winidaz (“Slav”)". Clearly we can't manage to call any country by its proper name.
20:14:49 <nakilon> s/wrong/esoteric
20:15:02 <nakilon> wow
20:15:09 <oerjan> btw although tysk = german, germansk = germanic
20:15:13 <nakilon> am I Venajsk?
20:15:32 <oerjan> i don't think finnish uses -sk
20:15:46 <fizzie> If you're Russian, you'd be 'venäläinen'.
20:15:48 <oerjan> certainly not at the end of words
20:16:48 <oerjan> fizzie: ok now i need to know what you call norway
20:17:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Quite boringly, it's just "Norja".
20:17:06 <oerjan> darn
20:17:37 <nakilon> land of nords, I see
20:17:45 <fizzie> I think we must've asked the Swedes what your country should be called.
20:18:09 <nakilon> there were kids who loved to make up names for other kids
20:18:20 <oerjan> yeah i think the swedes write "Norge" like we do but pronounce it as if it were "Norje"
20:18:40 <oerjan> (they may do that with most g+e)
20:18:46 <fizzie> Svärje and Norje.
20:19:26 <nakilon> the je ja also reminds me ья ье
20:19:28 <oerjan> curiously for "Sverige" we pronounce it as "Svärje" too
20:19:45 <oerjan> but "Norge" has a hard g in norwegian
20:20:46 <nakilon> fizzie how do you call CHina?
20:21:36 <oerjan> (that's Kina in norwegian. the K is pronounced as a palatal fricative, almost but not quite same as the swedes do)
20:22:00 <nakilon> I wish I knew what is palatal fricative
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20:23:21 <nakilon> so it's probably something between "China" and "Китай"
20:24:32 <nakilon> oh google translate has audio
20:25:28 <oerjan> nakilon: i'd been led previously to believe that "хмельно́й" can have the х pronounced that way, but wiktionary's current IPA disagrees
20:25:40 <fizzie> "Kiina". I guess the further away it is, the more likely we're to adopt a name others have too.
20:26:05 <fizzie> Doesn't entirely explain Norway, who we do have a land border with. But that's up in the north where it's all frozen anyway.
20:26:10 <nakilon> Х is more dull than how google translate voiced your word
20:26:36 <nakilon> it's like ХЬ, bit there no words with such digram
20:27:08 <fizzie> Our "Kiina"'s k is just the voiceless velar plosive though.
20:27:09 <nakilon> *bigram
20:29:15 <oerjan> nakilon: the г in мягкий may be closer
20:29:22 <nakilon> oerjan I guess this is that sound lol https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%85%D0%B5%D1%80
20:29:33 <oerjan> (found it on top of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology)
20:31:05 <nakilon> yeah, г sounds more like х if the next letter isn't vowel
20:32:15 <oerjan> nakilon: it's not just that it's like х but that х may also sometimes be palatalized if it's followed by a soft consonant.
20:32:17 <nakilon> in Ukrainian г never sounds like х and is a very recognizable sign of Ukrainian accent
20:32:33 <oerjan> (according to that wikipedia page which i've previously read)
20:35:06 <oerjan> nakilon: figures that swear words can break some of the phonology rules
20:35:20 <nakilon> still not sure what "palatalized" but in all usual uses of х and in хмельной sound appears deeper in your mouth and sounds dull, but in хер to make the 'e' soft (since it's not 'э') the sound starts closer to teeth
20:35:54 <nakilon> yeah, that's a swear word but not that хуй is dull, not like хер ..D
20:35:59 <oerjan> nakilon: palatilized is the linguistic word for what most russian "soft" consonants do
20:36:06 <oerjan> *a
20:36:34 <oerjan> it means closing the palate somewhat in the middle of the mouth
20:36:53 <nakilon> I guess I understand you if you mean those sounds that start like you are a snake ..D
20:38:01 <oerjan> i mean the sounds sometimes written with Ь following (+ a few "always soft" consonants.)
20:38:14 <nakilon> yep
20:38:34 <nakilon> though Ь also adds a short sound Й
20:38:44 <nakilon> like a transition
20:40:20 <nakilon> English speakers sometimes kind of add the Ь inappropriately, like they can't say "devochka", they say "dЬevochka"
20:40:40 <nakilon> can't join d with e for some reason
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20:41:32 <nakilon> that's weird since they have words like "daemon" but idk why they do that
20:43:19 <oerjan> i mean Ь at the end of a word or before a consonant. in front of vowel you use a completely different set of vowel letters but i'm too lazy to paste all those
20:43:44 <nakilon> btw about country names -- we have every country named similar to English, but there is an exception about Germany that is "belonging to Germany" is "Nemeckiy"
20:44:17 <nakilon> hm
20:44:30 <oerjan> istr hungarian (magyar) for germany is Nemetország (possibly missing accents)
20:45:05 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/N%C3%A9metorsz%C3%A1g
20:45:11 <oerjan> missed one
20:45:31 <nakilon> heh, accent on the first vowel
20:45:40 <nakilon> we have it on 2nd
20:46:18 <nakilon> lol oerjan did you see the synonyms list for хер?
20:46:26 <nakilon> it's the whole page
20:46:42 <oerjan> assuming devochka is https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0 it's supposedly a soft d there
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20:47:10 <nakilon> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B0 but yeah the same sound
20:48:03 <b_jonas> well if it's an "е" and it's in Russian (as opposed to eg. Ukranian) then it has to be a soft "д"
20:48:21 <b_jonas> (with exceptions, sure)
20:48:55 <oerjan> ah. russian has so many ways of making diminutives ("cute" version of words)
20:49:31 <oerjan> (also, i feel obligated to say i don't really know russian. i know four songs, that's about it.)
20:50:30 <b_jonas> I don't know russian either
20:51:10 <nakilon> it's like 300 ways to bypass the obscene language filter
20:51:13 <oerjan> <nakilon> heh, accent on the first vowel <-- hungarian accents are for length, not stress btw. (the stress is usually (always?) on the first vowel.)
20:51:30 <nakilon> and to be GTFOed in a funny way
20:54:36 <nakilon> I would remove 1/4 of that list though
20:54:50 <nakilon> someone just wanted it to be big
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22:55:10 <Melvar> Re incorrect country names: Apparently “Wales”, “Cornwall”, “Gaul”, “Wallonia”, and “Wallachia” are all related. And “walnut”. See, the Germanic *walhaz originally referred to a certain Celtic tribe, but became generalized to all Celts and then to any foreigner.
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23:32:10 <nakilon> if shinh does not add rasel maybe I'll make some shitty analogue specifically for rasel
23:32:38 <nakilon> I could make auth using libera account
23:33:29 <nakilon> looks like there is ircv3 capability to see the privmsg author account so one could message velik to create his account and set or generate password
23:40:55 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88074&oldid=87931 * Corbin * (+149) /* Functors */ Floating-point instructions.
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23:42:39 <esolangs> [[Illegal Characters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88075&oldid=88064 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
23:42:58 <oerjan> Melvar: huh TIL Gaul is not from Gallia
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