00:25:12 -!- sprock has joined.
02:20:59 <earendel> immutable objects don't make sense. 1) the compiled asts of similar objects are determined by accessors. which can be limited by constructors/classes. 2) classes of objects only make sense wihen objects can have different states. (sames accessors, different values) 3) the object is responsible to handle its integrity by hising its mechanics from outside world. secrecy principle. only methods can access them. (further integrity restrictions made
02:21:00 <earendel> through private, public, internal with nheritance. 4.) considerably good idea to keep the reference to object on heap immutable.
02:28:15 <earendel> i have seen a lot of memes and kids all pretending emperors immutable clothes to be the shit. now lets say you have a aquarium. and like nature. maybe walks in the forests. with sapiens sapiens of theopposite sex? if so. you are likely not gay. .. do you have a awurium?
02:30:54 <earendel> of course. i came to the wrong place. ais523: can u link to some short comprehesible text which explains that problems at least partly.
02:31:04 <oerjan> keegan: did earendel borrow your mushrooms
02:32:31 <earendel> if somebody can explain this, or change their mind its you. (and maybe me with the last part)
03:02:45 <nakilon> imagine if files had to have sex to copy?
03:03:14 <nakilon> actually cloning probably does not need it
03:04:00 <nakilon> maybe that's how Skynet will start
03:04:20 <nakilon> it will figure out the way to have sex between files so they'll evolute faster than we would be able to delete them
03:05:28 <nakilon> maybe some computer viruses are already close to it
03:21:35 <oerjan> do any computer viruses evolve automatically?
03:23:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
03:50:57 <Corbin> fungot: Do you provide the fungus? The ergot?
03:50:57 <fungot> Corbin: i guess i'm going to ask about
03:52:46 <keegan> there have definitely been artificial-life systems that include sexual reproduction
03:53:32 <keegan> and genetic algorithms / genetic programming
04:26:09 <esolangs> [[LCCBED]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88161&oldid=88151 * Iamn00b * (+7)
04:26:50 <earendel> it's either useful and/or sexy. which is better than just useful.
04:27:11 <esolangs> [[LCCBED]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88162&oldid=88161 * Iamn00b * (+2)
04:29:57 <earendel> mislead darwinists always want to break the sexy parts down to some advantage in terms of fitness. ending up hugging people to stimulate their immune system.
04:49:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
05:12:36 <Corbin> fungot: A cousin of yours?
05:30:47 <zzo38> I invented a structure of a hash algorithm that would have infinite internal state and infinite output length (if the output is truncated, then it can be implemented by finite memory and finite time). (It can probably be explained better by the diagram, I think)
05:34:10 -!- perlbot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:34:17 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:35:18 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
05:35:48 -!- perlbot has joined.
05:36:33 <zzo38> There is a similarity to Merkle-Damgard with wide pipe, but what is called "f" in the Wikipedia diagram is not used for hash output. Consider being like that but add also a infinite column of "g" functions below each "f" where the arrows point only right and down. Only half of each final "g" function (after adding the padding) is used as the output.
05:36:53 <zzo38> There is also sequence numbers added.
05:37:25 <zzo38> Maybe other improvements could also be made; do you know which one they are?
05:44:09 <zzo38> My own idea of construction also has the similarity of sponge construction that each state has the Bitrate and Capacity, although unlike a sponge construction, the states are now infinite and the squeezing is now "vertical" instead of "horizontal"
05:46:07 <zzo38> There is also HAIFA construction; I don't know how it is working but have started to read the report so that I can learn
06:28:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bigbean * New user account
06:40:36 -!- tromp has joined.
07:26:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:29:10 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:29:31 -!- perlbot has joined.
07:51:49 -!- slavfox has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:05:55 -!- hendursa1 has joined.
08:08:57 -!- hendursaga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
08:18:33 -!- slavfox has joined.
08:30:32 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88163&oldid=88160 * Timofeyka * (+470)
08:35:19 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88164&oldid=88163 * Timofeyka * (+1) /* Hello, world Program for Window */
08:37:52 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88165&oldid=88164 * Aboba228 * (+0)
08:41:12 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88166&oldid=88165 * Aboba228 * (+7)
08:42:18 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88167&oldid=88166 * Timofeyka * (-7)
08:42:52 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88168&oldid=88167 * Aboba228 * (+7)
08:56:14 <esolangs> [[EPL Main]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88169&oldid=88168 * Timofeyka * (-7) Undo revision 88168 by [[Special:Contributions/Aboba228|Aboba228]] ([[User talk:Aboba228|talk]])
09:20:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:20:49 <ais523> someone emailed me about an edit war going on at https://esolangs.org/wiki/EPL_Main (which seems primarily based around which Discord server to link to, but also partly around claims about what the language is useful for)
09:21:06 <ais523> but I'm going to bed soon and don't think I can sort this out on my own anyway
09:21:23 <ais523> so I'm going to mention it here in the hope that someone can think of a good resolution while I'm asleep
09:25:47 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving).
09:26:50 -!- riv has joined.
09:44:46 <fizzie> That's what my "huh" was about, but I don't have any thoughts about a good resolution. The "official website" doesn't seem to actually describe the language (or link to anywhere else than the Discord) so it's hard to say how fair a criticism "it's just some macros" is, but I don't know how much that'd matter anyway, we haven't usually required any specific level of quality.
10:15:16 -!- arseniiv has joined.
10:25:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:08:35 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:17:41 -!- Everything has joined.
11:18:11 -!- tech_exorcist has joined.
11:24:56 <int-e> fungot: are you a publicly traded company?
11:24:56 <fungot> int-e: but that sort of know how to get rotty's scheme48 ( the one that has java support?'
11:36:49 <nakilon> I hardly imagine how do people do edit war on a language that one of them made up
11:38:07 <nakilon> funny that I've actually noticed them yesterday -- two presumably russians registered within an hour
11:39:50 -!- earendel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
11:47:34 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:52:00 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:55:52 -!- tech_exorcist has joined.
12:05:31 <int-e> . o O ( s/Discord[- ]server/Discord guild/g )
12:10:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Iamn00b * moved [[Staxel]] to [[User talk:Staxel]]: no idea
12:10:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Staxel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88172&oldid=88170 * Iamn00b * (-165) Replaced content with "NO"
12:12:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ais523 * moved [[User talk:Staxel]] to [[Staxel]] over redirect: blanked by author in an apparent attempt to delete it, but moved to user talk of a nonexistent user first for some reason; moving it back so that it'll be deleted under the correct name
12:12:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * Ais523 * Ais523 deleted redirect [[Staxel]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[User talk:Staxel]]"
12:13:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Staxel]]": Author request: blanked by author, no contribution from others
12:17:04 <nakilon> 06:21:35 <oerjan> do any computer viruses evolve automatically?
12:17:31 <nakilon> there are for sure viruses that edit themselves to hide from antiviruses; the question is how far can those edits go
12:17:50 <nakilon> recently rewatched a very good movie Automata, btw
12:18:07 <nakilon> for some reason it's 30% on rotten tomatoes
12:18:45 <nakilon> and at the same time people are liking such awful crap like Luna or Ex Machina
12:19:45 -!- tromp has joined.
12:20:28 <nakilon> anyway, that Automata movie starts with telling that the chosen robot hardcoded directives were "do not harm humans" and "do not edit yourself"
12:20:58 <nakilon> and then the second one seemed to fail
12:31:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
12:31:34 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:37:11 -!- tromp has joined.
12:53:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
13:08:58 -!- spruit11 has joined.
13:15:49 -!- tromp has joined.
13:22:53 -!- spruit11 has quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
13:55:34 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
14:12:49 -!- voidio has joined.
14:13:22 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:14:17 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid.
14:14:46 -!- hendursa1 has quit (Quit: hendursa1).
14:15:10 -!- hendursaga has joined.
14:24:46 -!- tech_exorcist_ has joined.
14:26:10 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:37:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:01:19 -!- imode has joined.
15:22:07 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:23:30 -!- riv has joined.
16:09:27 <b_jonas> fungot, is Bulbasaur the most popular pokémon?\
16:09:28 <fungot> b_jonas: can you create one using " assignation", whatever that means.
16:23:25 -!- vyv has joined.
16:36:46 -!- yewscion has joined.
16:39:41 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88174 * Rphii * (+4464) created [0,1]
16:41:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88175&oldid=88157 * Rphii * (+35) /* Non-alphabetic */ add [0,1]
17:01:25 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88176&oldid=88174 * Rphii * (+120) add " and ' because I totally forgot to add them
17:08:26 <fizzie> fungot: No, I think you create new Pokémen by breeding, not by assignation.
17:08:26 <fungot> fizzie: next thing you know, to learn about this technique?
17:08:47 <fizzie> fungot: I think there's material on the Internet about it.
17:08:47 <fungot> fizzie: nonetheless, we can look over the wiki submitted entries, so it was after ( x ( y 5)
17:13:19 <nakilon> fungot what videos do you watch?
17:13:20 <fungot> nakilon: ok, never mind. i'm not a mit student who figured out how. so does everyone on the committee. that's life in the absence of mutation everything's sugar :)
17:13:50 <nakilon> wow, he has continued the topic of life and mutation
17:14:37 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88177&oldid=88176 * Rphii * (+0) /* Limits */
17:15:07 <Corbin> fungot: Okay, well, don't look up Pokémon breeding videos on the Internet, okay?
17:15:07 <fungot> Corbin: grr. my typing skills are fail today,' i mean ' letrec whose right-hand sides are lambdas, then the chapters of htdp as listed where? when?
17:15:24 <fizzie> fungot: You're a piece of software, you don't even type.
17:15:24 <fungot> fizzie: i have, but ' might happen relatively soon', after all the libertarians move there. it knows paint but not corner-split
17:15:32 <Corbin> I forget where the discussion ended last time, so: Is Brainfuck concatenative?
17:16:02 <Corbin> Or maybe this should be a #concatenative discussion...
17:16:25 <riv> no its not
17:17:58 <Corbin> Don't we compose programs by concatenating their text?
17:24:17 <Corbin> riv: Perhaps this might highlight for you the category BF, whose arrows are endomorphisms on a Brainfuck machine; the elements of the machine are the tape states. There's six primitive arrows and an endofunctor which sends arrows to loops.
17:24:41 <Corbin> Then, using Von Thun's definition of concatenative language, there's a homomorphism from Brainfuck texts to BF.
17:25:29 -!- ccx_ has joined.
17:25:34 <Corbin> (This is part of the larger programme of finding nice ways to arrange languages as endomorphisms on machines, akin to The Waterfall Model.)
17:27:22 <riv> you said there's 6 primitive arrows
17:27:27 <riv> but isn't that 6 coming out of every object
17:27:32 <riv> so it's really infinity * 6
17:27:56 <riv> or im understanding the category wrong?
17:31:26 <Corbin> riv: The category only has the one object, from the typical POV. We could zoom in a little if we imagine that a machine's number of cells is flexible. Maybe you'd let me make it a dependently-typed list; for all nats N, there's a fixed number of cells N and a pointer (0, N) to the current celll.
17:32:30 <riv> ah, just one object, ok!
17:33:11 <zzo38> What is Von Thun's definition?
17:34:01 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88178&oldid=88177 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ in retrospect it makes more sense like that (at least for me)
17:34:58 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88179&oldid=88178 * Rphii * (+0) /* Limits */
17:36:44 <Corbin> I summarized it at [[concatenative language]]. It's when the homomorphism from syntax to semantics sends juxtaposition/concatenation to composition.
17:36:47 <velik> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Concatenative_language
17:38:31 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88180&oldid=88179 * Rphii * (+75) /* Illegal operations */ clarify a detail
17:41:37 <riv> how does [ and ] work in terms of machine state?
17:41:42 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88181&oldid=88180 * Rphii * (-14) fix some details
17:41:50 <riv> the machine state is more than just the tape?
17:42:12 <esolangs> [[Concatenative language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88182&oldid=87539 * Corbin * (+340) /* Classical theory */ Wait a minute, *I* know Forth! *I* could include an example!
17:43:40 <Corbin> riv: Since programs are usually defined s.t. [ and ] have to match in pairs, we can promise the homomorphism that they will always form a nice little tree. And then the homomorphism sends the body of each  pair to what I'm calling a "loop" arrow, since it takes an endomorphism and returns the endomorphism which loops the machine until/if it reaches a certain state.
17:44:43 <riv> isn;'t the loop arrow taking a function as input, unlike the arrows for + - < > then?
17:44:47 <Corbin> The classic program [-] clears the current cell. We might send - to `pred` and [-] to `loop(pred)`.
17:45:08 <riv> i.e. [ + + ] becomes loop (plus o plus)
17:45:23 <Corbin> Yeah. Sorry for not being precise. It's an endofunctor.
17:49:29 <zzo38> It says "Since Forth relatives tend to be untyped, as in wikipedia:Open Firmware or PostScript" although PostScript does have types.
17:56:40 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88183&oldid=88181 * Rphii * (+35) /* Illegal operations */ make warning more clear
17:57:30 -!- tech_exorcist_ has quit (Quit: see you tomorrow).
17:57:37 <Corbin> zzo38: I freely admit that I suck at PostScript. Is there anything simple I can do to salvage the sentence, or does the paragraph need a rewrite?
17:57:56 <Corbin> I don't want to ignore the history, I just wasn't there for most of it.
18:00:46 -!- op_4 has joined.
18:02:14 <nakilon> imagine hard drive to be a surface of a planet
18:02:45 <nakilon> and programs analysing the unused sectors are digging the signs of previous civilisation of installed software and data
18:03:40 <nakilon> civilisations migrate between disks like between planets
18:04:22 <nakilon> humanity gotta find another hard drive before this one is dead
18:05:04 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88184&oldid=88183 * Rphii * (+189)
18:05:45 <nakilon> I think I just made up another apocalyptic plot for a book that I write in some alternative reality where I'm a writer
18:08:52 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88185&oldid=88184 * Rphii * (+0) /* Initialization */
18:09:05 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:11:02 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88186&oldid=88185 * Rphii * (-16) /* Overflowing */
18:12:19 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88187&oldid=88186 * Rphii * (+0) /* Commands */ plus and minus do make more sense....
18:16:38 <zzo38> I can answer questions about PostScript if you have a specific question, but I do not know what to write in that article.
18:17:37 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88188&oldid=88187 * Rphii * (-66) /* Commands */
18:18:01 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88189&oldid=88188 * Rphii * (+24) /* Overflowing */ clarification
18:23:35 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88190&oldid=88189 * Rphii * (+68) /* Illegal operations */ make warning even more clear
18:25:46 <esolangs> [[User:Rphii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88191&oldid=86192 * Rphii * (+54) /* My Languages */
18:27:27 -!- arseniiv has joined.
18:30:00 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88192&oldid=88190 * Rphii * (+24) /* Commands */
18:31:24 <esolangs> [[Concatenative language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88193&oldid=88182 * Corbin * (-201) /* Classical theory */ Strike incorrect sentence.
18:31:40 <Corbin> zzo38: I've just removed it. Thanks for pointing it out!
18:39:45 -!- riv has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:41:01 -!- riv has joined.
18:43:38 -!- sprock has joined.
18:50:14 -!- Trieste_ has joined.
18:50:30 -!- Trieste has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:52:17 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88194&oldid=88192 * Rphii * (-1134) now it is perfect
18:56:27 <esolangs> [[)0,1(]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88195&oldid=88194 * Rphii * (+1134) Undo revision 88194 by [[Special:Contributions/Rphii|Rphii]] ([[User talk:Rphii|talk]]) it was so perfect it would have been useless
19:00:11 <nakilon> who made the colors for esolangs bot? I like them
19:00:13 -!- Trieste_ has changed nick to Trieste.
19:00:30 <nakilon> but I don't understand if it's because I'm used to seeing them or because they are really good
19:05:12 -!- yewscion has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:28:07 <fizzie> They're actually the MediaWiki defaults, from https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/blob/master/includes/rcfeed/IRCColourfulRCFeedFormatter.php
19:28:23 <fizzie> It's not even customizable.
19:40:41 <esolangs> [[Nabd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88196 * BlueOkiris * (+3524) Created page with "== Description == A simple, functional esoteric programming language The name is an acronym standing for "Not A Brainf**k Derivative." [https://github.com/blueOkiris/nabd C..."
19:52:53 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:04:32 -!- vyv has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
20:19:47 -!- sprock has joined.
20:25:14 -!- Thelie has joined.
20:54:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:55:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
21:06:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
21:07:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:08:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
21:09:22 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:19:01 -!- Everything has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:27:57 <esolangs> [[A returns a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88197&oldid=84360 * Jetison333 * (+659) Added interpreter and cleaned up a few bugs in listed programs
21:31:39 <esolangs> [[Befunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88198&oldid=84711 * Stasoid * (+0) /* Language overview */
21:35:31 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/comments/pskz43/create_a_private_leaderboard_before_the_next_aoc/
21:35:46 <nakilon> what is this thing? do we have it for #esolangs ?
21:41:45 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:42:22 -!- shachaf has joined.
21:45:05 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:48:12 <fizzie> I don't remember if we made one. We definitely talked about it though.
21:50:47 <fizzie> I thing my thinking was, the global leaderboard is okay in terms of not causing any undue pressure, because I can never get on it anyway, because the puzzle publication time is kind of maximally pessimal and I'm never awake when it happens (I think it's 5am here). But if we had a private leaderboard for a group this small, it'd be different, and then I'd feel like I have to try to compete, and
21:51:17 <fizzie> But I might've still joined if someone did set it up. But maybe the people who mostly talked about it had other channels' leaderboards already.
21:52:25 <fizzie> I was accidentally awake at 5am for one of the puzzles, and actually did get on the global leaderboard, but I didn't like the time pressure aspect of it. I like the puzzles more as a way of relaxing.
21:54:57 <fizzie> The way it works, AIUI, is that any one user can create a single private leaderboard for any purpose.
21:58:40 -!- riv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:56:18 -!- earendel has joined.
23:37:20 <fizzie> Heh, trying to do inventory of things, found an 8 MB CompactFlash card.
23:37:43 <fizzie> With my current camera, you could fit between 0 and 1 photos on it. Except it uses SD cards rather than CF cards.
23:40:43 <nakilon> "not causing any undue pressure, because I can never get on it anyway" -- hehe, same
23:42:23 <nakilon> solve it in 10 minutes and all the top is sub 5, solve it in 5 min and top is sub 2...
23:42:47 <nakilon> I won't even finish reading the task in 2 minutes
23:45:00 <fizzie> I'm #10 (for two stars, #50 for one) of https://adventofcode.com/2019/leaderboard/day/10 but it was really stressful, kind of a "type in Python like a rabid monkey" style. I think that's the totality of my points for all of AoC.