< 1630454895 568228 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm i forgot to log out yesterday > 1630455270 940579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87876&oldid=87871 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+169) 10/* Meta-program Examples */ > 1630455491 49754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87877&oldid=87876 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-2) 10/* Hello World */ > 1630455508 669309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87878&oldid=87877 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* File Name Generator */ > 1630455605 715962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87879&oldid=87878 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-20) 10/* Random Number (1-10) */ < 1630456161 146657 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a way to see all the Templates of the wiki? < 1630456248 110550 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example I wanted to use this one but could not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Empty_section < 1630456317 504879 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I guess this https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=template&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns10=1 < 1630456347 342422 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=&namespace=10 < 1630456381 196090 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ends up at the same place, I'm guessing. < 1630456392 264938 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :More or less, anyway. > 1630457020 813678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quipu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87880&oldid=49825 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+0) 10Fixed typo in lyrics > 1630457180 162985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RASEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87881&oldid=87604 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+314) 10added an example of how .rasela json file looks < 1630457256 482014 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :still amazes me how I get the highlight sound from this bot even before the wiki page load after the save button press < 1630457300 878205 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :even via the bnc web interface > 1630457301 802512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87882&oldid=87879 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+23) 10/* Random Number (1-10) */ > 1630457370 404064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87883&oldid=87882 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+45) 10/* Quine */ < 1630457743 414728 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630458156 878055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION 's mind boggles at someone wanting sound highlighting of esolangs announcements < 1630458258 102156 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean there is my nickname in that message < 1630458269 249855 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I hear it > 1630458272 566542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ark14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87884&oldid=87349 5* 03Spargle 5* (-188) 10/* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */ < 1630458278 636457 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1630458294 68259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would do it. i doun < 1630458319 882083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't have sound for highlighting my own name either < 1630458558 446470 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, truffleruby works exactly how people describe it < 1630458663 235032 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first second is slow but then it runs faster and after 6 seconds of running the examples/prime.rasel it reaches the usual ruby > 1630459656 270318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87885&oldid=87883 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+9) 10 > 1630459694 917394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87886&oldid=87885 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+0) 10 > 1630459735 436558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87887&oldid=87886 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+4) 10 < 1630460695 180333 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1630462158 244334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87888&oldid=87887 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+65) 10/* Syntax */ > 1630462185 467674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87889&oldid=87888 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+19) 10/* Quine */ > 1630462207 95880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87890&oldid=87889 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+9) 10/* Quine */ > 1630462707 755541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87891&oldid=87890 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-51) 10/* Quine */ < 1630464797 697495 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin < 1630465705 25994 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh 1998 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot/purl/ in that year in my town people saw computers only in western movies; maybe this IRC bot is still alive < 1630465915 867290 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :last commit is 2 years ago on sourceforge < 1630469395 33101 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh seriously? < 1630469465 465800 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://i.imgur.com/1XCeZm4.png < 1630469502 80417 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm still not there lol https://www.janestreet.com/puzzles/it-s-symmetric-2-solution/ < 1630473044 624901 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630473177 370949 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630475482 583227 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1630478572 323292 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630482395 660778 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630483521 634979 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630483588 607661 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630483619 405456 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630483649 581134 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630483764 616771 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630484636 834899 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630495806 604592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv > 1630501235 395412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fmbalbuena14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87892&oldid=87729 5* 03Fmbalbuena 5* (+32) 10 < 1630501952 144526 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursaga < 1630501978 621757 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630502124 346113 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630503577 313259 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630503661 603908 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1630504700 576738 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630504709 810932 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630504722 613749 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-7.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver < 1630504732 595765 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630504756 214702 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630505675 311373 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630506517 358036 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630507145 381010 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630507675 890249 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630509148 526012 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630509801 903497 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1630510365 12077 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :funny how they call the company "Equal Opportunity" < 1630514670 853560 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630514740 493466 :SystemFFan!~SystemFFa@188.70.6.7 JOIN #esolangs SystemFFan :realname > 1630515626 364802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87893&oldid=87874 5* 03Ithkuil 5* (+0) 10/* Inefficient conversion to number */ < 1630517170 604917 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630517193 257654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` echo x > a; ln a b; xz a < 1630517195 489639 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :xz: a: Input file has more than one hard link, skipping < 1630517219 521974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what the rationale behind that is < 1630517240 773024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"compressing this won't save you any disk space... let's not do it", maybe < 1630517272 34950 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm a b # it's not versioned, but it's still persistent < 1630517273 62300 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1630517303 170932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls < 1630517304 398183 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​:#,_@ \ 🌱 \ a.o \ a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bef2 \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ pikhqbow_tst \ program \ -.s \ spline \ spout \ stall \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt \ xaa < 1630517386 730223 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :-.s comes out of some GCC misuse, I think. Something like `... | gcc -x c - -S`, forgetting the `-o -` bit. I've seen it before. In my own ~/tmp, probably. < 1630517432 747159 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also an empty file literally called '*.spp' in my ~/tmp, not sure what's up with that. < 1630517449 756604 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe you should have a cron job that cleans up everything that is older than, say, a day < 1630517478 183662 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and file named as befunge code < 1630517478 566122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ls bin < 1630517484 70142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls bin < 1630517485 326065 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasel < 1630517533 539339 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that is CAT program but with lost '>' < 1630517561 525168 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it says "olleh" in it. < 1630517615 650895 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it was probably from `echo "olleh">:#,_@ | ...` without considering that > will be interpreted as a shell redirection. < 1630517627 869694 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\rasel A"!dlrow ,olleH">:?@,Hj < 1630517639 994513 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : output: Hello, world![LF], exit code: 0 < 1630517640 16082 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ping < 1630517645 132911 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :pong < 1630517670 118953 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc -c bin/* < 1630517671 30085 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :34 bin/rasel < 1630517686 35460 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cat bin/rasel < 1630517687 77683 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel < 1630517698 591482 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc -c ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel < 1630517699 633696 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wc: ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel: No such file or directory < 1630517718 647987 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :meh < 1630517743 315337 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was some another bin I guess < 1630517744 339992 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630517764 438922 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm bin/rasel < 1630517766 82613 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1630517797 651097 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` which rasel < 1630517799 72263 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630517812 51209 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc -c ​/hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630517813 141849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wc: ​/hackenv/bin/rasel: No such file or directory < 1630517822 296181 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :woah < 1630517834 311118 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls ​/hackenv/lib < 1630517836 48403 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ls: cannot access '​/hackenv/lib': No such file or directory < 1630517874 134641 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how is that possible that which points to unexisting file? < 1630517934 40945 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You *might* get that from a broken symlink, but it's not that. < 1630517947 261135 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/rasel does exist. < 1630518021 642931 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` file ​/hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518022 758192 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​​/hackenv/bin/rasel: cannot open `​/hackenv/bin/rasel' (No such file or directory) < 1630518074 38941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc -c /hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518075 7970 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :45 /hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518095 454986 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` wc -c ​/hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518096 125856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: you had some unicode garbage before the initial / < 1630518096 485820 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wc: ​/hackenv/bin/rasel: No such file or directory < 1630518105 76799 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :_Oo < 1630518117 818955 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode c ​/h < 1630518119 58783 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] < 1630518124 808865 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, a zero-width space. < 1630518139 211363 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably copy-pasted from HackEso output. < 1630518154 818733 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It adds one when the output line starts with a non-letter, as a botloop avoidance mechanism. < 1630518182 515527 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I copypasted it from 20:36:39 ​/hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518186 379329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the good old ^O might work better? Ah I don't know. < 1630518187 591815 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630518207 293378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's Hack-Eso, not Production-Eso < 1630518220 956210 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hackesaw < 1630518261 602933 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ls /hackenv/lib < 1630518262 838301 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :c++decl \ cdecl \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma \ kps \ morse-decode \ p7zip-16.02 \ rasel_gem < 1630518276 454978 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm -rf /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem < 1630518280 617598 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1630518295 574932 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rm /hackenv/bin/rasel < 1630518298 161580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1630518549 920972 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :funny how it's hard to find where the code starts in befunge < 1630518571 335070 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose this is some sort of switch-case but... https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/47a5050c2541d8b23af4970e786449164708b328/fungot.b98#L181-L195 < 1630518571 422374 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: mathematical, huh? < 1630518580 737037 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot esoterical < 1630518581 10120 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: also it has a white plastic ping-pong ball." works.)) be done in scheme that's dynamically adjustable < 1630518675 528330 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you reach the start of line 182? < 1630518705 556790 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From line 120 or thereabouts. < 1630518772 428736 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The `v_v#` at the start of line 120 (entered from the right) is I think the bit that branches based on whether the incoming line starts with the command prefix ^ or not. < 1630518811 732539 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or if you meant the word "reload" literally, that's just a comment. < 1630518816 565539 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"reload" is just a comment, I think. Line 182 is entered from line 183, with the | < 1630518830 685189 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, "daoler"Q is the *actual* executed code. < 1630518835 259900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I vaguely recall to be a conditional < 1630518873 276584 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1630518877 348574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really haven't touched Befunge at all, beyond skimming the list of opcodes once or twice. < 1630518881 421184 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, ..."daoler"Q!| uses the Q instruction from STRN to do a string comparison, and then branches up if it matches, down if not. < 1630518948 260684 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be less misleading if those comments were not in "" but in something else, anyway < 1630518975 940435 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(just thinking about some compact switch-case for [],.-=<>) < 1630519019 604872 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630519039 945683 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except for [], the rest are close enough in ASCII terms that they might even be worth a jvvvv... jump table. < 1630519070 478371 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, maybe not. < 1630519113 855705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :line 202 is funny... "ignor" because the "e" didn't fit :P < 1630519182 565782 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah... I think the reason why they're quoted is, other comments are just... regular comments *about* the code, but these are specifically mentioning strings the input is compared to. < 1630519188 735557 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no copypaste functionality in my IDE so to make this https://i.imgur.com/XPhcPaA.png I converted it to rasel, edited in sublime and converted back to rasela, lol < 1630519339 109104 :vyv!~vyv@bras-vprn-nrbaon0452w-lp130-16-76-68-64-7.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1630519446 307882 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630520155 654321 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630523028 831015 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably since I preload all the bf code into the stack I might better store the bf tape right after the code rather than doing even/odd addressing thing; just need one more cell to store the length of code permanently as a shift > 1630525834 276145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87894&oldid=87891 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+750) 10/* Quine */ < 1630526027 502452 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :just found that Moscow subway has already implemented a "FacePay" on 4 stations -- system that when you enter the subway it recognizes your face to take the payment < 1630526101 84196 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I wonder when will they cancel the usual way to pay for using metro > 1630528619 795611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87895&oldid=87894 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+69) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1630528664 60359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87896&oldid=87895 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-5) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1630528808 711931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87897&oldid=87896 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Hello World */ > 1630528825 774660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87898&oldid=87897 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-18) 10/* Quine */ > 1630528852 429479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87899&oldid=87898 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+4) 10/* Hello World (Quine) */ < 1630529395 547419 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630529477 379056 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630529477 645087 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630529841 70156 :SystemFFan!~SystemFFa@188.70.6.7 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630529890 550115 :SystemFFan!~SystemFFa@188.70.6.7 JOIN #esolangs SystemFFan :realname < 1630530048 268028 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630530202 376755 :Oshawott!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:ac9b:2578:55e3:e77a QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630530208 261940 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630533342 565904 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630535002 351826 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://i.imgur.com/MHx5rSB.png -- 6 of 8 are done < 1630535691 383934 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any standard on documenting addresses/registers in very low level languages? < 1630535774 26292 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example when I look at this https://i.imgur.com/Sw0ZqPK.png I get a picture of what are the meanings of each stack position, but I get the correct picture only if the program is correct < 1630535801 737554 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and only when I run it < 1630535875 869959 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be nice to have the "stack structure in the given moment in the program" documented in the source code < 1630535937 476971 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so then when I run it and I could compare pictures to find where the things went wrong < 1630536132 557306 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630536149 889737 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's the Forth convention on documenting the stack effect of individual words, but that's more about transitions, not about snapshots. < 1630536369 376883 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :: swap ( a b -- b a ) ... ; for example, where the ( a b -- b a ) is a stack effect comment, with the initial stack (shown up to the depth affected) on the left side of the --, and the stack after the word on the right. < 1630536427 21984 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :reminds haskell function type signatures < 1630536500 561070 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't you have some stack description in fungot? I feel like I saw somthing < 1630536501 131995 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: oh my fnord on top of the simple levels, but advanced student will probably run out of mem or something even more mindless. :p i guess it's gotten more orthodox now. they certainly are easy to implement < 1630536565 704863 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think not, I just have comments on all the important Fungespace locations. During development of individual "basic blocks" I definitely tend to write notes with stack annotations though. < 1630536571 243677 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see starting here https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98#L389 < 1630536571 537326 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: how nasty is this as a " highly interested" in your fnord library and much of my last two hours chasing a *feature* with what implementation? < 1630536592 222680 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, those are locations in instructions space < 1630536634 679710 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Well, the section on brainfuck exec does document the that top of stack is mostly the instruction pointer, and second on stack the data pointer. Most of the time, anyway. < 1630536756 129254 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would've been nice to have an editor that could have retained those actual stack notes, for future editability. I usually write them by just lining out the instruction sequence vertically (one command per line in the first column, as if execution was proceeding downwards) and then rest of the line indicating the stack on that line (I don't remember whether I usually make that before or after the < 1630536758 331425 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :instruction). > 1630538535 860282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87900&oldid=87899 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+51) 10/* Hello World (Quine) */ > 1630538636 853122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87901&oldid=87900 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-66) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1630538646 506022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87902&oldid=87901 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-54) 10/* Hello World (Cheating Quine) */ > 1630538771 315033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87903&oldid=87902 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+114) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1630538790 965413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87904&oldid=87903 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1630538803 423095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87905&oldid=87904 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-1) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1630539847 314689 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630540531 348543 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630540870 534051 :SystemFFan!~SystemFFa@188.70.6.7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630546216 422825 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630547492 486788 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1630547494 376563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[ Jump past the matching ] if the cell at the pointer is 0 < 1630547494 433603 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :] Jump back to the matching [ if the cell at the pointer is nonzero < 1630547494 647003 :j-bot!~jbot@irc.supplies PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: |value error: is < 1630547494 660798 :j-bot!~jbot@irc.supplies PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: | Jump past the matching]if the cell at the pointer is 0 < 1630547530 87692 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if ] has to do any check actually or just go back to the [ and [ will do the check < 1630547569 778424 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably only [ has to have a condition < 1630548041 483556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: yeah you can choose to put the check on only one < 1630548097 659466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you do check, you should jump to after [ for the second case too < 1630548143 926141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, can. < 1630548207 844759 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :reversible brainfuck is similar, except you _must_ check on both and jump past, since the tests are reversed from each other < 1630549302 360865 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630549302 360906 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630550208 606259 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1630550327 355747 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1630556770 895833 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully this is it https://i.imgur.com/tEdX7dL.png at least it passes these tests https://dpaste.org/73HP/slim < 1630559260 522083 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630559565 669564 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ printf "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++." | ./bin/rasel examples/bf_interpreter.rasel | hexdump -C < 1630559565 718353 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :00000000 48 65 6c 6c 6f 20 57 6f 72 6c 64 21 0a |Hello World!.| < 1630559566 821712 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hooray < 1630562608 106448 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a book called "Concrete Mathematics". They mention the operation "mod", and also "mumble" which is the other one (x mumble y = y ceiling(x/y) - x). Should they be called "punk" (according to another suggestion in this book), or do you like mumble? Or is there another name for this? > 1630563039 614261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RASEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87906&oldid=87881 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+202) 10/* Computational class */ added link to bf interpreter < 1630563248 124973 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@check \x y -> y==0%1 || y * ceiling(x/y) - x == x `rem` y < 1630563250 58491 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : error: < 1630563250 98295 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : • No instance for (Integral (Ratio Integer)) arising from a use of ‘ceiling’... < 1630563255 661344 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops < 1630563273 604834 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@check \x y -> y==0 || y * ceiling(x%y) - x == x `rem` y < 1630563275 634921 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 9 tests and 3 shrinks): < 1630563275 640925 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 7 3 < 1630563312 991287 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess it's not that. < 1630563376 139440 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right < 1630563440 536101 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is this @check thing? < 1630563481 930200 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It checks whether a proposition is true or false. < 1630563484 957148 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :v. convenient < 1630563505 767907 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630563510 849366 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it a built in haskell tool? < 1630563590 354780 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :must be something similar in mathematica; but it's cool how it says "after 9 tests..." > 1630564950 669475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87907&oldid=87648 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+466) 10/* Main table */ added RASEL/Brainfuck < 1630566509 12216 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck > 1630566618 788266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87908 5* 03Hyperdawg 5* (+74) 10Created page with "'''GG''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Hyperdawg]]" < 1630566661 35306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: it's not a theorem prover, but a generator of random test cases < 1630566679 371624 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :like fuzz testing? < 1630566694 292856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps? i don't know that. < 1630566738 342471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it also some mechanism for reducing the size of test cases, that's what the "3 shrinks" is about. < 1630566742 386163 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :*also has < 1630566819 590733 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + z < 1630566821 156112 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : +++ OK, passed 100 tests. < 1630566834 903621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + (z :: Double) < 1630566836 764638 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 7 shrinks): < 1630566836 792795 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 0.6571961060614686 -0.45461759492755616 -0.11907641039759291 < 1630566856 672351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's IEEE floating point for you :) < 1630566882 394888 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(without the :: Double it uses Integer) < 1630567702 744542 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = 1; y = 2^^(-53); z = y in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z) < 1630567704 424984 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : False < 1630567746 14697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = 2; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z) < 1630567747 867196 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : False < 1630567779 36023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = 1; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z) < 1630567780 397348 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : False < 1630567806 595491 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = 1; y = 1; z = 1/3 in (x+y)+z == x+(y+z :: Float) < 1630567808 390784 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : False < 1630567944 565109 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, we learned that associativity is a lie. ;-) < 1630567961 388710 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we learned that floating-point values are lies. < 1630567962 240732 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A crude approximation of the real world (tm) < 1630568006 382165 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fuzz testing is a useful tool when you need to check the correctness of a kitten. < 1630568122 968553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: what does a smiley have to look like in order to be taken seriuosly? apparently ;-) isn't enough < 1630568123 199922 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: a module or anything like that) was discussed in this records thread on cll about it < 1630568170 438318 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, I don't think there's any doubt that you know what associativity is, and how Float works. < 1630568666 661456 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630568836 117393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, do I know that though... addition and multiplication, yes. Division, not so much. I mean I've seen long division and that cute Newton iteration x |-> x(2-ax) for 1/a, and that's about it. Inverse square root... again not so much. Transcendental functions... there's cordic but I'm not convinced it's actually used. No clue what other things there are. < 1630569053 634087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> iterate (\x -> x*(2-5*x)) 0.3 < 1630569055 117586 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0.3,0.15,0.1875,0.19921875,0.1999969482421875,0.19999999995343387,0.2,0.2,0... < 1630569252 554207 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630569286 265913 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I hope you can know how a type works without knowing all the algorithms on that type. < 1630569326 798981 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The real test is what you call the bits of the float that aren't the sign bit or the exponent. < 1630569327 669368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, I can enjoy a sausage without knowing how it's made. < 1630569404 633412 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :As with many things, there's many levels of understanding here. < 1630569581 251191 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should know how these things are computed. < 1630569594 438316 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, I don't even know how integer multiplication works, really. < 1630569605 925075 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I realized I couldn't expand "ulp". < 1630569630 569898 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I have an OK understanding of carry-lookahead adders now. I could at least think about it and come up with a reasonable one. < 1630569714 761633 :V!~v@anomalous.eu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630569866 385694 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read a short post that instantly answered all my questions about carry-lookahead adders and so on. It was great. < 1630569896 625561 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630570071 615993 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630570093 905281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm happy with my fancy monoid < 1630570175 814771 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which one is that, the propagate-generate monoid? < 1630570470 993545 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it starts with the silly number-appending monoid, (d1,l1) <> (d2,l2) = (d1*b^l2,l1+l2), then integrates addition and carries into it and that'll give you something that computes 2 results (which boil down to either clearing the carry, propagating the carry, or setting a carry, if you focus on the carries alone) < 1630570529 705970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(two results: one with incoming carry, and one without) < 1630570567 144423 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's really overcomplicated, but it makes sense to me, and as far as me understanding something goes... that's all that matters :P < 1630570667 683829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose "generate" corresponds to two possible cases. < 1630570861 614399 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :"clearing the carry" never happens, I guess. < 1630570916 206380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :0+0+c never generates a carry < 1630570929 89000 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, uh, right. < 1630570978 137369 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing that never happens is complement. < 1630570987 561765 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, it's monotonic < 1630571068 329001 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But nowadays I'm all about consensus things. < 1630572085 662575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( int-e's consensus algorithm: agree to disagree. ) < 1630572243 893267 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630572303 577564 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: just use a 3-D befunge, lay out your code in 2 dimensions (since that already allows arbitrary control flow), and have comments go next to the instructions in the third dimension's direction < 1630572421 575165 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :trefunge it's called < 1630572487 887144 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I often use this style of comment: "code; // short comment" < 1630572491 686241 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course you might want a 3D code editor for that that can view your code in any of the 48 rotated orientations, including rotating the directional instructions appropriately < 1630572501 761923 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then if the comment is longer, I move it to its own line before the code, which feels oddly discontinuous. < 1630572504 851376 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What can I do about that? < 1630572593 982106 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: use a 21:9 monitor? ;-) < 1630572613 960270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(does anyone else miss the 4:3 ones...) < 1630572648 456944 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: not particularly, but I'd prefer to have 16:10 ones more available < 1630572746 682795 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they let me put four 30 row terminals in a 2x2 arrangement, or two 35 and two 25 row terminals etc < 1630572823 576118 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(actually only a 30 and a 29 row one, because I reserve one row for a thin taskbar at the bottom plus the border between the two terminals, and even so I have one pixel of overlap < 1630572825 927314 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :) < 1630572945 26088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooph, there's at least one 32:9 monitor on the market. < 1630572961 960047 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: with or without touchscreen? < 1630573051 79701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :without, I think. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9HCJ2V/ > 1630573092 151692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87909&oldid=87908 5* 03Hyperdawg 5* (+87) 10 > 1630573136 356165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87910&oldid=87909 5* 03Hyperdawg 5* (+11) 10 < 1630573168 53575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't get the whole touch screen monitor thing either, not for PCs nor home entertainment. < 1630573297 303310 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : Sure, I can enjoy a sausage without knowing how it's made. <-- i think it's generally acknowledged that it's even easier that way hth < 1630573337 905070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I thought it was better without spelling that part out < 1630573408 261342 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: sure, without touchscreen it's better, it's just that the extreme ratio made me question that. > 1630573535 168631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87911&oldid=87910 5* 03Hyperdawg 5* (+4) 10 < 1630573740 442475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :my joke detection ability is going, i can feel it < 1630573837 192570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Different topic, does the Geisterdamen language have a name? < 1630573898 531599 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm not that i remember < 1630573940 978497 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :ghost damn < 1630573947 74824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay < 1630573981 530294 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo: ghost dames is a more direct translation < 1630574014 483378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait < 1630574016 190555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ladies < 1630574038 760463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo: It's "ladies". (Oh and "dame" actually exists in english, as a counterpart to "knight" in the UK) < 1630574041 85384 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that sounds closer < 1630574066 313891 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION was looking up "damen" < 1630574068 526336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, took too long cross-checking things. < 1630574121 75615 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :although "ghost dames" is a _cognate_ translation, i presume. < 1630574122 477411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I knew that "dame" is one of those honorary titles in the UK, but I didn't know what exactly it corresponds to) < 1630574173 374780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ghost damsels <- let's make it worse, shall we < 1630574184 395734 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :ghost dammit < 1630574186 532927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :itym distressful < 1630574222 707119 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmm. They *are* distressed a lot of times, aren't they. < 1630574242 367190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the tight corsets, i think < 1630574317 675674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...which ones... < 1630574406 20799 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones they have to wear to be properly dressed < 1630574425 117821 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :could you do something with geist as spirit? < 1630574480 242897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: aren't they usually naked in the lower torso area, which is what corsets tend to be made to shape? < 1630574489 166482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo: perhaps, although these ladies happen to be grey in color < 1630574510 49262 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oh. i had somehow forgotten which damsels we were speaking about. < 1630574516 681739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hooloovoo: there's also "geist" as "intellect" < 1630574519 642591 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a compartmented way < 1630574539 826304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I see < 1630574569 230897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, corsets have been blamed for all the fainting in romance novels. < 1630574585 107973 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :By all accounts they're truly breath-taking. < 1630576084 624853 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There was someone with a 32:9 monitor on the XMonad channel asking for advice on how to make it behave like two 16:9 monitors, which makes sense. < 1630576900 607143 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630577949 865956 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( did anyone recommend a saw ) < 1630578061 109771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey they should support this on the monitor side. give the thing two inputs < 1630578135 815178 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the description that you linked to https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9HCJ2V/ explicitly says that they support two inputs < 1630578146 332222 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Super ultra-wide 49 inch monitor provides the enhanced productivity thru split screen functions like Picture-by-Picture (PBP), letting you connect to two devices while maintaining their original quality " < 1630578197 13387 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: oh, do they? sounds interesting (I didn't read) < 1630578741 276368 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I've heard ultrawides do that. Hmm, I wonder if any support acting as two inputs over a single cable with DisplayPort MST. Because if the motivation is "two devices", that's not exactly needed. < 1630578816 339998 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, XRandR 1.5 introduced a "monitor" concept that decouples "rectangular regions shown to the user" from "outputs of a GPU", so the client can now define those arbitrarily even if it's "physically" just one output. < 1630578869 771300 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be cool if those monitors could take inputs from two machines < 1630578901 605457 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I could see macos and windows at the same time < 1630578905 195190 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They can, that's what wob_jonas was describing. < 1630578996 88501 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: did XRandR have to do that to support DRM that sends TV series as encrypted video to the monitor? < 1630579026 314512 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630579085 425094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I used my home monitor with inputs from two separate computer, but not displayed at the same time, but switching with a button on the front of the monitor < 1630579225 690577 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what the XRandR monitor motivation was. I think there's been a few monitors where it's "necessary" to merge two physical outputs to a single monitor, for link bandwidth reasons, before things like HDMI 2.1 and DP 1.4 added higher-bandwidth modes, it could have been that. < 1630579240 91195 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do the input-swapping regularly now that WFH is a thing. < 1630579272 563173 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: hmm. I thought DVI already solved the bandwidth problem by having a more expensive variant with more pins in the cable < 1630579309 643262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :people have come up with higher resolutions < 1630579314 106540 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're referring to single-link vs. dual-link, yes, but then people just kept on increasing both the resolution and the refresh rate. < 1630579324 179024 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :People want 144 Hz now. < 1630579327 767272 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that's what made me do it, yes. < 1630579339 414553 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because it's apparently necessary for gaming. < 1630579366 73928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I believe that actually < 1630579392 218795 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I believe it depends on the game. ;) < 1630579417 25384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shooter stuff... you have up to about two frames of latency (start drawing frame, wait for vsync, wait for it to actually be displayed) < 1630579442 434159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming the GPU can keep up < 1630579449 481017 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/pg9x4b/fake_3d_billboards/ < 1630579450 290567 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :AIUI, 60, 120, 144 and 240 are the "standard" framerates now. Also, there's those "dynamic framerate" standards. < 1630579544 822490 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Regarding swapping inputs, quite handily both of my monitors have four buttons, two of which can be programmed to do a specific action. So I've got them set up so that button 1 on both selects the personal desktop input, and button 2 on both selects the work laptop input. < 1630579545 595242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the less significant effect that 120Hz is a nice fit for 24fps movies < 1630579554 473036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :much better than 60Hz < 1630579571 113815 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :high fps in shooters isn't this much about latency than about the smoothness < 1630579605 640265 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no profit from seeing something 5 msec faster if your ping is 50 and human reaction limit around 150 < 1630579607 315776 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: true, < 1630579648 215626 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but high fps helps your brain to understand what's going on and where things are moving and with which speed < 1630579662 279772 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of being a high framerate slideshow < 1630579701 431113 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that's nice. on my monitor (which I'm going to replace soon), it's press the second button from the right to go from home to work computer, three times to go from work computer to home computer. (it cycles through the four inputs, in the order composite, VGA, DVI, HDMI) < 1630579785 598371 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas and it takes monitor 2 seconds of black screen to finally switch, I hate it < 1630579802 416618 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, there's a slightly curious effect from the work laptop using USB-C DP Alt Mode MST to drive both monitors over a single cable: when the directly connected monitor is switched to some other input, the indirectly connected monitor is not visible to it. So if I want to have both the work and home computers visible simultaneously (not common), I can only do that one way around. < 1630579897 377904 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the hard part is switching the keyboard actually, not the monitor < 1630580107 202093 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, and when I switch from work mode to home mode, if I want to optimize it for speed, I must always switch the "second" monitor first. If I do the "first" monitor first, the second one loses signal and immediately goes to a special no-signal mode, and then those quick-access buttons don't work, but instead all buttons bring up the input selector menu, meaning the switch takes three button < 1630580109 331832 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :presses (bring up menu, press up/down, press select). < 1630581101 220862 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasel translator translates the helloworld in 80msec and then runs it in 100msec < 1630581117 699913 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :rasel interpreter interprets in 400msec < 1630581977 839575 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, noticed it again, on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck it says "Short program printing Hello, World! by primo" and states that its start is shifted by 4 positions < 1630582010 30650 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :then it says "Currently, the shortest known program printing Hello, World! is written by KSab" but does not say that it needs shifted start too < 1630582024 888532 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :both translator and interpreter throw the error < 1630582142 766361 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf --<-<<+[+[<+>--->->->-<<<]>]<<--.<++++++.<<-..<<.<+.>>.>>.<<<.+++.>>.>>-.<<<+. < 1630582143 24248 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, World! < 1630582145 910265 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.>>>>+. < 1630582145 959156 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, World! < 1630582152 725533 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :his codegolf stackexchnage post also doesn't mention it < 1630582193 110676 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(FTR, fungot's tape is a loop.) < 1630582193 195047 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: i mean, < 1630582213 188926 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: ...you mean what? < 1630582213 364839 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: and i don't care about the result. < 1630582221 834935 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Such a grumpy bot. < 1630582486 941206 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :typical. measuring speed without caring about whether the code they're timing actualy does the correct result. < 1630582960 620378 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630586457 310092 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630587348 606943 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630588286 672082 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan re `@check \x y z -> x + (y + z) == (x + y) + (z :: Double)`, I suggest 0.6+0.3!=0.9 as the staple example because that's true for both 32-bit and 64-bit floats, but we should probably search for an example that's false in even more common floating point types < 1630588325 957248 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one that doesn't just use loss of precision by adding two numbers of opposite sign or similar tricks < 1630588542 357304 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630588578 622391 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630588775 260247 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: ok, although the main purpose of my command was to demonstrate @check, and only secondarily to demonstrate floats. < 1630588877 5964 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but this is a question that I'll have to look for a good answer for anyway < 1630588878 619529 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630591339 308362 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630591531 295804 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630591588 626400 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently 1 + 2/3 != 5/3 is another example that works with float32 or float64 < 1630592144 381700 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1630593141 345022 :src_!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630593274 372742 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630593406 317495 :src_!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630593659 540607 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT : < 1630593677 495727 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith < 1630593696 69135 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1630594212 966678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87912&oldid=87905 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+42) 10/* Syntax */ < 1630594682 464400 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630595728 198693 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1630596864 616257 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630596894 636805 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630598307 606069 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630599717 345702 :dnm!sid401311@tooting.irccloud.com QUIT : < 1630599732 369645 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm < 1630599741 403893 :archenoth!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:792d:29ae:a5b3:8fc3 JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth < 1630600299 860157 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630600311 642514 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630600993 320834 :monoxane!~monoxane@119-18-17-227.771211.mel.static.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630601487 581581 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630605093 619115 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630605922 515812 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630606269 869848 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, spam email with "Subject: esolangs". That's not too common. < 1630606306 43175 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently it's meant for "the CEO", however. < 1630606315 36131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: did you receive it at an email address at the domain esolangs.org ? < 1630606326 859994 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. But there's not too much of those. < 1630606333 859475 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was sent to webmaster@ on that domain. < 1630606372 134023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I've sent emails that start with "Dear $websitename," < 1630606504 462182 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Allegedly an "Hongwei Ltd" is attempting to register "esolangs" as their .cn domain name and "internet keyword", but the diligent research of the guy who sent the email (a Service & Operations Manager at "China Registry (Head Office)") has revealed our "company name or trademark" is in conflict, and they want to confirm whether that's our business partner in China. < 1630606516 579239 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I got an identical one few months back as well. < 1630606585 227448 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most prominent "Hongwei Ltd" would appear to be Hongwei Technologies Limited, which "manufactures and sells polyester differential fibers primarily to the yarn and textile manufacturers located in the southern People's Republic of China". But perhaps they're branching to the lucrative esoteric programming language business. < 1630606727 813775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh, and among the most common types of spam I receive to my main email address are the ones that try to claim that the mail server has stopped receiving (or will stop receiving) email to my mailbox and I have to confirm my personal data and/or password to make sure I receive further emails, and those emails often mention the domain name of the email address in the subject. plus of course I get < 1630606733 816097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spam about "Google lottery" to my gmail.com address, but that latter probably only counts for half credit. < 1630606807 638246 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sometimes report the "Google lottery" ones through some internal channels, just for the sake of form. I get them on my non-Gmail address though. < 1630606824 130755 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not very recently, I think. < 1630606939 211335 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the most common broad category of spam I get are (at least superficially) suppliers of various kinds of things for manufacturing. Like, just looking at the last few subject lines, there's "Re: Mould supplier", "Re: Both Liquid Crystal and Vacuum glass Technology", "Re: Leather products Supplies good quotation", "Re: Cooper wire mesh" and "Re: Stainless steel sintered explosion-proof net". < 1630606962 523297 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :("Cooper" was my own typo, it was in fact "Copper" in the email.) < 1630607073 220560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think the only ones I've reported are (1) spam in the name of Paypal, (2) bots in twitch chat that try to sell twitch subs, and (3) the paper spam that threatens to cut some utility (electricity maybe) if you don't pay some money with the deadline being the day it was taped to the entrance < 1630607077 314629 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And "hair bundles", whatever that is. < 1630607126 576138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: "esolang" isn't such a bad brand name for a new synthetic textile material though < 1630607141 616436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it sort of sounds chemical and synthetic, so I think it might work < 1630607272 872406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, "mould supplier"? but isn't "mould" an alternate spelling for the other meaning of "mold", the that you don't want to supply as a product because it's a generally harmful fungus, as opposed to a shaped template for materials that you shape by melting? < 1630607319 523985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(well, not necessarily melting, it can also harden chemically a bit of time after you mix it from its components, that's how you shape silicones because they don't melt) < 1630607503 983385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're supposed to use the hair bundlesare for hair lengthening in your Real Fast Hair Salon I think < 1630607618 902295 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently "mould" *can* be used for the other meaning of mold as well, as in the thing used for casting. < 1630607708 644872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :can it? let me check my Oxford < 1630607775 25527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes it can < 1630607787 975747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's even the first meaning of "mould" in the order the Oxford gives them < 1630607807 720458 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second is the fungi, the third (and last) is "soft loose earth" < 1630607915 310800 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :did someone say fungi < 1630607937 175469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630607947 838535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :befungi < 1630607979 102393 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have I ranted about my electricity supplier yet? I feel like ranting about my electricity supplier. < 1630607994 58614 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They have a "smart" meter they can read remotely, and it came supplied with an IHD (in-home display) with CAD (consumer access device) facilities, meaning it can do wifi and talk MQTT to a broker for pseudo-real-time electricity usage data. Which is all well and good. < 1630608015 838198 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, the endpoint it deigns to talk MQTT to is hardcoded in the device, and requires a (valid, signed-by-a-trusted-CA) TLS server certificate, so the only way to actually make *use* of that feature is to register for the Samsung SmartThings cloud service, which it will then upload usage data to, from which you're then supposed to consume it with an app. < 1630608109 323408 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :blah < 1630608170 261984 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I read from somewhere that the regulations say the supplier must help the customer in pairing any device into the HAN (the Zigbee thing the actual meter uses to talk to the IHD) as long as it's a certified device, but from some forum conversations (a) they don't actually do that, and anyway (b) nobody seems to be making reasonably "open" yet certified devices. And anyway, I *have* a < 1630608172 330398 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :device, which even knows how to export the data. It just doesn't want to export it to its nominal owner. < 1630608208 49628 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Another thing I read is that I technically own the IHD, it's not one of those cases where I'm just renting it.) < 1630608550 535643 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630609269 318284 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: a lot of us have the power meters outside the home, so much more people can gain physical access to it than me or the owners. anyone in the house, and anyone who can get in the house door, which is much less well guarded than the apartment doors. as of now, people can read the total consumption from an LCD on it only when they are physically present (or if they leave a hidden camera somewhere in < 1630609275 325379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the cupboard I guess). that's much less of a security risk. if this was a smart device and anyone who physically walks up to it could download data to it, that would be much worse. < 1630609317 732652 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630609341 674769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: and yes, that means people can turn off electricity in my apartment by flipping a switch if they walk up there, but that's a feature for safety in case of fire or gas leaks. otherwise they'd have to cut a wire or something. < 1630609396 53101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the actual downside is that people who walk there can vandalize the tamper seal, but then people can vandalize a lot of things everywhere and in general it's hard to protect from that < 1630609448 415759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I wonder how you'd imagine that only the owner can pair their device to the power meter and download the data < 1630609963 126154 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You need (cryptographic) keys from the supplier to pair a device with the meter, or something along those lines. < 1630610039 90381 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The meter is in fact not inside the flat here, it's out there in a cupboard in the corridor. Anyone living in the building can go and borrow the key, if for example they need to read it. < 1630610055 13974 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, the physical key to the cupboard. < 1630610094 573929 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which has the meters for everyone on this floor, and I think it's the same key for at least a group of floors, based on how it's marked. < 1630610104 51314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: also isn't it like, the meter already must communicate with the provider, that's why they're installing it; and the provider must already communicate with you because they're sending you bills; so why set up a third connection when these two must already work and they can just forward you the data at not much extra cost < 1630610140 582025 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They download the data at a much lower resolution than what the meter can provide to the IHD. < 1630610177 295398 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I've seen such physical keys. the locks often go wrong, or just nobody bothers to lock the cupboard, plus they're the numbered kind of key that anyone can buy if they just know a small integer, or buy the whole set and try each of them, or open the cupboard without the key. for this apartment, I haven't ever seen this cupboard locked. < 1630610183 861295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: do you like augmenting paths? < 1630610184 144098 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: don't you mean the spec bloats the grammar, whereas the normal windows mzscheme uses normal windows libraries. what it seems like < 1630610225 158580 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do in fact collect daily usage data from the supplier, by crawling it from their entirely undocumented GraphQL endpoint that their fancy client-side web app uses to render a chart. < 1630610234 57818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe < 1630610271 360414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you also have a cheap camera and led light in front of the display, light it up once an hour, take a photo, and read the number automatically? < 1630610291 57998 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have thought about doing that, yes. < 1630610327 212053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe < 1630610360 978510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you also thought of just installing your own meter, one per every inner circuit breaker, inside the house, but found that they're horribly expensive because they're priced for industrial applications < 1630610410 906308 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not that I'd really *need* the high-resolution data, I'm mostly just curious about the bottom-line power usage of some devices and I feel like it'd be a fun way to measure that, to just collect samples of the "instant" energy use (which has a resolution in the order of some seconds) with and without the device plugged in / turned on, and then do some statistics. < 1630610463 339989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630610486 243039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except of course that's hard because some of your other devices, especially the fridge, can just start consuming more or less power at any time < 1630610525 485259 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that's the "statistics" part, I think if I did collect enough samples it should be possible to cluster the numbers and see how the "baseline" power usage changes. < 1630610543 256305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630610551 582832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the computers can also vary their power usage a lot < 1630610778 337625 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, I have the IHD unit plugged to a computer, because it's powered via USB, and there was already a computer next to it anyway, so plugging the USB cable to one of the computer's otherwise unused USB ports avoids having one less AC/DC adapter. < 1630610839 413545 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone had opened one up and said the data lines of the USB port are not connected to anything, but that there's some places on the PCB that *could* be populated, so potentially it could act as a USB device during development or something. < 1630610907 429876 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, "avoids having one less" is probably not right. < 1630610941 706059 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I meant either "avoids needing one more" or "allows having one less", but mixed them up wrong. < 1630611142 725678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"avoids having one less AC/DC adapter." => yeah, but some computers are willing to supply only much less power on their USB ports than designated fast mobile phone chargers. < 1630611191 919510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :re "meant either", or "avoids having one less AC/DC adapter remaining" < 1630611208 205887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::-) < 1630615010 631063 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1630615608 610799 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :speaking about chinese and esoteric, just found this page https://github.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/blob/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md#L56 < 1630615715 470442 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it feels like this guy translates all kinds of the "awesome lists" to chinese to then serve on a website < 1630615721 530483 :Everything!~Everythin@128-124-169-247.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630615810 275254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that would be a useful service < 1630615813 260745 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, direct replica of https://github.com/angrykoala/awesome-esolangs < 1630615851 450728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if they attribute the original somewhere < 1630615860 787011 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see the original < 1630615868 19928 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the attribution < 1630615902 666223 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630615930 572128 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630615967 380998 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially funny to see "Logo used with permission of David Morgan-Mar" < 1630615976 250015 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :translated < 1630616047 347466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: it does say '
' which points to the original source < 1630616064 447798 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630616075 976398 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds like some github feature\ < 1630616082 163339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it has github in its name < 1630616112 189048 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :where do you this div? < 1630616116 385918 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :&do you see < 1630616132 125692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the raw content of the file https://raw.githubusercontent.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md < 1630616146 741307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the raw of https://github.com/yunwan1x/awesome-cn/blob/ee7b919f7c7ff1559a70de35f0582a199dd526b5/docs/awesome/awesome-esolangs.md#L56 < 1630616218 194346 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with all the client-time scripting that goes on here, I'm not sure if that results in some link or something in the rendered interface < 1630616304 870915 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs immibis :realname < 1630616320 981307 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's left in the source code by a mistake or a note for the future content update, but it does not render < 1630616381 938626 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, no, it actually renders here https://asmcn.icopy.site/awesome/awesome-esolangs/ < 1630616417 164311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where in that? < 1630616479 155287 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://i.imgur.com/F5nlROo.png < 1630616528 880844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I see, thanks < 1630616537 644263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :great < 1630616545 863067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then I approve of this translation thing < 1630616565 316568 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotta check what other embedding formats github provides -- might be useful < 1630616941 379178 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :got no response from shinh about rasel ( < 1630617694 398894 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630618517 893813 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630618542 888109 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, the libretto of Zauberflöte has a lot of different translations to hungarian, and they all render Sarastro's aria "O Isis und Osiris" quite differently < 1630618609 346203 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for search purposes: the libretto was written by Emanuel Shikaneder) < 1630618804 198180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one I've hear dthe most is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJPqMwMIbc “Ó, Isis és Osiris, járjon bölcs szellemed e pár előtt! Hogy a veszéllyel szembeszálljon, adjatok nékik rá erőt! Sikerrel járjon majd a próba – ám ha az út halálos volna, bátrak jutalma nékik jár, fogadd be őket, égi pár!” < 1630618929 291291 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris,_Isis,_itt_e_p%C3%A1rnak says “Osiris, Isis, itt e párnak ó égi lelket adjatok! Ti álltok őrt a vándor útján, melletük is ti álljatok! Amerre vándorútjuk elmegy, nyíljanak égi rózsakelyhek, s ha életük útja véget ér, fonjatok nékik szent babért!” < 1630619022 283074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://mek.oszk.hu/14500/14584/14584.htm says the same < 1630619056 881024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there's even a translation that doesn't even mention Isis and Osiris < 1630619124 51395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and no, it's not a socialist system censure either that doesn't mention any religion < 1630619135 28198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it just says something like "o gods in heaven" or something < 1630619209 527758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUZ0tfG7tNo has Székely Mihály singing that second translation by the way < 1630619361 168487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe that third one is just confusion, translating a different part of the lyrics? I'm trying to find out < 1630619435 255176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe these are the only two translations? < 1630619473 79292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second one seems to have been translated by Harsányi Zsolt a long time ago < 1630619546 247796 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@159.196.0.223 JOIN #esolangs orichalcumcosmon :Quinn Johnson < 1630619686 849503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qE88dtLHPQ is Kovács Kolos singing the first translation (“Ó, Isis és Osiris, járjon bölcs szellemed”), which is thus probably actually historically a later translation then the second one < 1630619701 152303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/Kovács Kolos/Kováts Kolos/ < 1630620062 33248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems more reasonable than what it seemed at first. just two translations, an old one and a modern one < 1630620089 21348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a typical pattern for works this famous. what do you think, fungot? < 1630620089 311185 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what a strange way :p). can i just use texinfo. does anyone here have a link please? :) < 1630620148 348283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: yes, the link is https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383 < 1630620148 607566 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if it doesn't, since i am dealing with squares anyways, it would be a < 1630620647 437752 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood < 1630620699 346428 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630620727 309747 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen > 1630621208 522688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mandelbrot set14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87913&oldid=68888 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+97) 10/* External links */ In Brainfuck written by Erik Bosman. < 1630622102 815006 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :remember I converted fungot code to png via direct translating to netpbm? I think it might be used as a weird version of QR codes < 1630622102 920947 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: strictly business. open source too. < 1630622185 802539 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but while QR codes are recovering via error correction to read the photo of text rendered in such way you have to adjust color curves < 1630622238 711133 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can adjust curves automatically until text starts having enough many statistically valid n-grams of the known context < 1630622400 165932 :FireFly!firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style < 1630622400 213496 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube < 1630622809 891586 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is that while barcode readers are used to black and white images in the era of smartphones with full color cameras it's a waste of data < 1630622890 929326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it may be post-compressed with some universal compression algorithms but why? if you could just use the full color range < 1630622987 880559 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :each such pixel is depicted with thousands of pixels on the photo that might be convertable to a 2 bytes deep color channel < 1630623000 74769 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even deeper < 1630623034 429417 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so instead of 0, 1 and error correction sums you can adjust some "floats" < 1630623120 21771 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :omg, thinking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#JAB_code < 1630623151 113580 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actual light sensors don't have to be used exactly on human visible spectre < 1630623189 629425 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole world can be marked in some not visible color range < 1630623248 591683 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn https://www.cognex.com/blogs/industrial-barcode-reader/invisible-barcodes-help-prevent-counterfeit-products < 1630623500 832196 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :a form of steganography < 1630623981 648405 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine fungot sending important messages here every day we just don't know how to decypher < 1630623982 22034 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: i'm also applying to be haskell apprentice from xerox parc, and vanished. kranz went to curl, rak philbin went on to become a famous phrase. < 1630624696 543316 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630625125 299591 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also while or worse cameras you had to adjust each channel curve separately today's camera are enough good to only adjust the lightness < 1630626318 923064 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok these guys implemented something like what I said about full color range encoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_barcode - https://github.com/piql/boxing < 1630626362 559440 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :why don't I invent things before others do it... < 1630626423 123801 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode < 1630626538 156456 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because of the Bob Profit principle, is someone who think of something probably someone else has already done, too < 1630628914 818917 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630628944 641523 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630630340 209493 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630630373 640417 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630630514 245543 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630630547 639309 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630630565 904402 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1630631342 645022 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630631845 576928 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630631909 639663 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630632117 319865 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630632172 846517 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1630633554 639688 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630633563 354969 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit > 1630634115 676890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quipu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87914&oldid=87880 5* 03Jo King 5* (-35) 10updated factorial example to simpler program < 1630634590 525538 :Everything!~Everythin@128-124-169-247.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1630635299 217018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jo King14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87915 5* 03Jo King 5* (+840) 10created my user page, hooray > 1630635498 172618 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jo King14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87916&oldid=87915 5* 03Jo King 5* (+0) 10fixed link > 1630635725 489879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jo King14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87917&oldid=87916 5* 03Jo King 5* (-1) 10 < 1630636305 648056 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630636305 697378 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1630636735 321985 :archenoth!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:792d:29ae:a5b3:8fc3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630637257 609081 :archenoth!~archenoth@S0106889e6827f474.cg.shawcable.net JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth < 1630637361 607976 :Oshawott!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:2844:9448:77ef:3b0b JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth < 1630637560 620843 :archenoth!~archenoth@S0106889e6827f474.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1630640196 252336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MishaKlopukh 5* 10New user account > 1630640501 176365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87918&oldid=87872 5* 03MishaKlopukh 5* (+191) 10/* Introductions */ < 1630644385 250043 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 NICK :[a]delta23 > 1630645829 682046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RarVM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87919&oldid=78815 5* 03Void 5* (+49) 10/* Hierarchical resource models: intent vs transfer */ < 1630648190 155008 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@159.196.0.223 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630648466 698552 :monoxane!~monoxane@119-18-17-227.771211.mel.static.aussiebb.net JOIN #esolangs monoxane :monoxane < 1630648964 335953 :[a]delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630650860 803553 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolamg < 1630655507 589226 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630656247 506218 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630656252 632839 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630656417 634385 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630656459 504908 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630657078 592262 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple < 1630657182 932037 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630657310 584490 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 JOIN #esolangs * :@xylochoron:matrix.org < 1630657364 436574 :phdu[m]!~phdumatri@2001:470:69fc:105::e6b6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630657364 556319 :Deewiant!~deewiant@2001:470:69fc:105::2fd3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1630657466 890895 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630657761 582357 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630657893 847008 :Deewiant!~deewiant@2001:470:69fc:105::2fd3 JOIN #esolangs Deewiant :@deewiant:maon.fi < 1630658021 400923 :phdu[m]!~phdumatri@2001:470:69fc:105::e6b6 JOIN #esolangs * :@phdu:matrix.org > 1630658149 354410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Transfinite program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87920&oldid=79792 5* 03Glubs9 5* (+228) 10/* Collections of real numbers as programs */ < 1630660424 363459 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1630661412 672756 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1630661430 427550 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn < 1630661727 708454 :craigoverend[m]!~craigover@2001:470:69fc:105::12bc QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630661751 741376 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow. the weather forecast says no rain for a week. I don't think I've ever seen such a flat precipitation graph yet. < 1630661912 730348 :craigoverend[m]!~craigover@2001:470:69fc:105::12bc JOIN #esolangs * :@craigoverend:matrix.org < 1630662346 750479 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@id-79547.charlton.irccloud.com QUIT : < 1630662361 569064 :ProofTechnique!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs ProofTechnique :ptech < 1630663062 617148 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630664092 431955 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630664618 340358 :yuu_!sid267332@2001:67c:2f08:3::4:1444 QUIT : < 1630664633 325980 :yuu_!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu < 1630664774 139019 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630664862 355383 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630666396 631654 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630667518 311927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630667681 847217 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630667701 659249 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630670418 611503 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630674352 991475 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630674381 616731 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630675001 551117 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1630675187 515633 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630676122 852589 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1630677134 627257 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630677970 522667 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630678117 331727 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630682391 608234 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630686774 243602 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630688690 621177 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630689354 650066 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630689645 611429 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630690460 140313 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630690990 608673 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630693085 132114 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630693182 545412 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630693350 639655 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630693350 689492 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630693742 618668 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630693802 634309 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630693808 271843 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630693951 655571 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630693976 258556 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630694364 621465 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630694982 92196 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630702246 396996 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some of the block cipher modes can be used with hashes as well as block ciphers, since they do not use the decryption function of the block cipher. There are other variations that can be done too, including another way to verify the data < 1630702335 486565 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630702336 983129 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630702405 415179 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630702495 954449 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630707542 346974 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas do you mean where you live you get rain at least once a week?! < 1630710451 804064 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630712029 666347 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630712756 612496 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630712775 676731 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630713603 557695 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630713604 462184 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630713604 462226 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630713732 531685 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin < 1630713781 607066 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple < 1630713820 457254 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron < 1630714689 306018 :Pyautogui!~Pyautogui@108-216-110-132.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://kiwiirc.com] Pyautogui < 1630714840 520929 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630714945 376618 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630716807 584430 :Pyautogui!~Pyautogui@108-216-110-132.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630716980 285787 :Pyautogui!~Pyautogui@108-216-110-132.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://kiwiirc.com] Pyautogui < 1630717133 915379 :Pyautogui!~Pyautogui@108-216-110-132.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net PART :#esolangs < 1630718060 253514 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630718061 390685 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630719186 248171 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630721547 641720 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630721561 835288 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1630721946 637211 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630723745 249161 :sebbu!~sebbu@user/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630724055 16766 :sebbu!~sebbu@user/sebbu JOIN #esolangs sebbu :sebbu < 1630724513 591414 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630725654 267522 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@1.132.108.2 JOIN #esolangs orichalcumcosmon :Quinn Johnson < 1630725722 527876 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630725857 624524 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@1.132.108.2 QUIT :Client Quit < 1630725968 316131 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@1.132.108.2 JOIN #esolangs orichalcumcosmon :Quinn Johnson < 1630726512 638627 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630730533 339427 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630733128 440137 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin < 1630733950 126914 :orichalcumcosmon!~orichalcu@1.132.108.2 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630734066 623503 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630734234 622659 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630736394 324102 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Specifically, the CFB, OFB, and CTR modes do not require the block cipher to be able to decrypt anything. I think ChaCha20 is like CTR mode, anyways. Maybe any mode could also be combined with XEX mode, too. < 1630736460 980554 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ChaCha20 is a stream cipher, not a block cipher < 1630736470 308946 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and CTR mode is a construction for turning a block cipher into a stream cipher < 1630736582 939672 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you are right that you could use something like hash(key ++ counter) in place of encrypt(key, counter) in a CTR construction < 1630736618 654226 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i'd have to think about the formal guarantees of such a construction < 1630736711 313175 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :whether it's actually secure given the usual assumptions of a cryptographic hash function < 1630736784 21004 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's easy to come up with (contrived) examples of hashes which are resistant to collision and pre-image attacks and yet do not produce a secure stream cipher this way < 1630736806 796506 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example pad the output of a standard cryptographic hash with zeroes < 1630736854 773938 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :however a lot of the time cryptographic systems are proven secure within the "random oracle model", where hashes are replaced with an idealized randomly-chosen mapping from the input space to the output space < 1630736866 555501 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that should suffice for a stream cipher, i think < 1630737337 975543 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although they call ChaCha20 a stream cipher, it looks to me like a block cipher with CTR mode. < 1630737376 265690 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL: computers have mastered Gomoku in 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomoku#Computers_and_Gomoku < 1630737561 501031 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I once looked into Salsa20/ChaCha as an example of a modern secure cipher that might be feasible (if annoying) to work by hand < 1630737570 268285 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fairly simple as these things go < 1630737603 21964 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Olympiad < 1630738151 9688 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it will still be slow to work by hand for long messages, but it is still possible, I think < 1630740385 164308 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why don't you like Free Hero Mesh? (It is similar to some (not all) of the kind of puzzle games sometimes mentioned by other people on here, and can also be considered as a alternative of Xsok and PuzzleScript (some of the features of Free Hero Mesh were designed to be similar to some of the features of those other programs, too).) Currently nobody else is on the Free Hero Mesh. If there is other IRC to suggest to try, you can suggest t < 1630740761 857590 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that the reversible ChaCha20 could be used (with key whitening) with other block cipher modes too, although I don't know if it is secure. < 1630742808 623608 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630743036 619907 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630743771 332793 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630744037 535470 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630745118 248520 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1630747170 525636 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630748110 790689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: in the autumn at least, sure < 1630748117 614032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not in Australia < 1630748256 143245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even if there's no rain for a week, the week long forecast isn't so confident in it < 1630748616 722950 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630749043 228557 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-118.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630749322 582994 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-003-156-185.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar < 1630749456 367140 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-088-066-199-040.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar < 1630749582 582948 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-003-156-185.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630749764 333063 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-088-066-199-040.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630750412 891980 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630750449 742591 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630750548 603978 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar < 1630751637 142512 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630756586 369349 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630757715 669158 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630759715 338580 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630759868 599298 :V!~v@anomalous.eu JOIN #esolangs V :Wie? < 1630760557 479677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is Waiwhakaiho < 1630760560 893985 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Waiwhakaiho < 1630760644 499147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops < 1630760668 476578 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i distinctly recall having thought of a password well in advance, then forgotten about it, < 1630760671 480945 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. < 1630760700 326803 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and of course i distinctly don't recall what it was.) < 1630760711 981162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There'll be another month. < 1630760718 557605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think. < 1630760721 712866 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :MAYBE < 1630760829 554822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: That anecdote is proving a point made previously: The password of the month is most forgettable. < 1630760858 83526 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is a problem. I really like these kind of descriptions, but it's hard to come up with new ones.) < 1630760904 369115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least this month's is mysterious. < 1630761323 246939 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630761445 582299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630762085 336507 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630762127 623334 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630763221 930276 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630764795 368956 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630764817 866440 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a pending password of the month too, maybe around May, and I remembered it for a while, but by now I've forgotten it. < 1630764955 268311 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630767573 166474 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630767617 957225 :zegalch!~zegalch@178.128.75.133 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630767642 618083 :zegalch!~zegalch@178.128.75.133 JOIN #esolangs zegalch :The Lounge User < 1630767779 668761 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630767819 640999 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630767846 422146 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630770834 239650 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630771489 446298 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password < 1630771491 897824 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is Waiwhakaiho < 1630771502 456724 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whm < 1630772370 619024 :spruit11_!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:3c81:60b6:4f21:77d2 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630772547 225877 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:8013:5e37:15b2:f034 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630774273 473313 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de NICK :Melvar < 1630774288 339861 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a number type here where (0.1 + 0.1) - 0.2 is 0.00390625 . I wonder how quickly someone will guess what number format this is. < 1630774399 359636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> log(0.00390625)/log(2) < 1630774401 51228 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : -8.0 < 1630774458 635788 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630774853 588852 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630775212 959189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: overly specific link: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cairo/cairo/-/blob/master/src/cairo-fixed-type-private.h#L62 < 1630775327 950428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And no, I didn't take 15 minutes to think of a format, I just decided to act on the impulse to check whether cairo is still doing that < 1630775330 954029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :) < 1630775412 201725 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I thought it uses double instead these days, but that code is still there. So I don't know.) < 1630775694 513400 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :While you are correct that it is a 24.8 fixed point number, the reason I have it is that the Wayland protocol includes these. < 1630775863 250780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does wayland use pixman in any shape or fashion? < 1630775954 150632 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Supposedly wayland is a protocol, even though everyone’s *supposed* to just use the one implementation. But I don’t know if that one implementation uses pixman. < 1630776082 87695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's probably irrelevant anyway... it should be using 16.16 fixed point (48.16 on 64 bit platforms) < 1630776084 912890 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One implementation *for the protocol-speaking itself*, that is. Of course, I wrote my own anyway because I felt like it, that’s why the number discussion of the past couple of days had me bring this up.) < 1630776124 426757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :As did cairo, initially... but people ran into problems with large geometries and they decided to compromise on 24.8 instead. < 1630776126 470340 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :All the things in the wayland protocol are 32-bit words in host byte order, except byte arrays. < 1630776276 29599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the reason I was asking was that IIRC, pixman is somewhat present in the X11 protocol's Render extension, so it might have crept into wayland that way. https://github.com/D-Programming-Deimos/libX11/blob/master/c/X11/extensions/Xrender.h#L129-L130 (And yes, there's some confusion about cause and effect here :-) ) < 1630776293 556947 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...D-Programming-Deimos... search engines are so random < 1630776311 735227 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is especially fun because one part of the message metadata is a 32-bit word with the message length in the high half and the opcode in the low half, but you can’t (at least not fully portably in principle) read this as two 16-bit words because the order of the 16-bit words switches between little-endian and big-endian systems. < 1630776406 327592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :these days... leave it up to the compiler to figure that out < 1630776436 305377 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630776462 903010 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wayland’s thing is not actually having anything about client rendering in it, except for “how do you make the right kind of buffer” because in-GPU-memory buffers obviously need to be set up by different mechanisms than in-main-memory buffers. < 1630776484 192766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ENOFUNGOT < 1630776535 621031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: then why do they have subpixel coordinates at all? < 1630776606 819155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm making an assumption there. < 1630776638 161865 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because you may render your content at a higher resolution if wayland tells you it’s being shown on a hidpi display, it seems, mainly. < 1630776808 292823 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630776812 650725 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the core protocol, it seems that mouse, touch, and scroll events use these fixnums for their coordinates, plus for the shape properties of touch points if those are supported by your input device. < 1630776883 87253 :spruit11_!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:3c81:60b6:4f21:77d2 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. < 1630776899 397347 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:3c81:60b6:4f21:77d2 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1630776914 886009 :fractal42!~fractal42@2601:1c0:2:c841:e982:46ef:4ad4:fdd3 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] fractal42 < 1630777006 959961 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the mouse/pointer can probably only be at locations corresponding to real pixels, but with the scaling you can have multiple real pixels per unit of surface coordinates. < 1630777171 147778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. I guess that makes sense. < 1630777188 377079 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :The scaling stuff is such that the default is just that the compositor scales up your pixel data itself if you don’t say you’re rendering at the increased resolution it told you about. < 1630777249 741272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION is living a compositer-free life :P < 1630777258 533146 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, it tells you about the scale of any output you’re being shown on, and you tell it about the scale you’re rendering at (default 1), and the compositor has to make up the difference. < 1630777273 180977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I guess is borderline insane these days < 1630777324 776429 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :I’m not actually using wayland either because there’s still not a functional WayMonad yet. < 1630777466 509902 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, right. < 1630777477 940056 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Our interweb at home went down yesterday. < 1630777496 564495 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I even said out loud "hmm, fungot has probably dropped off", but then did nothing about it. < 1630777499 321159 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :And an actual XMonad developer noted that having garbage collection in the rendering path is a problem, so a new protocol to replicate the X setup of window manager as a separate process may need to be invented before a WayMonad becomes really usable. < 1630777534 974369 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1 < 1630777596 75064 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good thing the wayland protocol is pretty extensible. < 1630777754 126661 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine pen input can have subpixel accuracy even in terms of physical pixels. At least I remember pen displays quoting ridiculous numbers for that. < 1630777819 466260 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Possibly. < 1630778001 902 :fractal42!~fractal42@2601:1c0:2:c841:e982:46ef:4ad4:fdd3 PART :#esolangs < 1630778011 606817 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wacom's almost-entry-level Cintiq 16 (I've been thinking about getting one, purely because I have an inexplicable attraction for things with pens) has a ~142dpi 1920x1080 display, but a "5080 lpi" "pen resolution". < 1630778013 467512 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I feel like that's the same sort of number as printer resolutions. < 1630778084 784554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have certainly thought of passwords, including "DVD demagnetizer", but I don't find it important enough to set them, and it would feel dirty to automatically set them, and it's not clear where the ethics boundary is between running a script that automatically grabs the password at midnight (which timezone?) and just setting up a calendar reminder to grab the password, so I just don't do anything. < 1630778309 118241 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I want a tablety thing I can draw on, which also has a screen so I can look at it while I'm drawing, what's the best option? < 1630778331 259233 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean for things like interactive online things where other people can see it. < 1630778411 230944 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should it be a self-contained computing device, or just a peripheral to an existing computer? < 1630778485 75849 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been informed that the iPad Pro + Apple Pencil combination is up there, I've just personally ruled that out for software-related reasons. < 1630778581 770349 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :My vague impression was that the iPad Pro Pencil thing was very good. < 1630778606 267993 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm similarly not that into using an Apple thing. < 1630778703 259245 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also the Surface Pro and the Surface Pen, which I think wasn't bad either, but I've *also* ruled that out for software reasons. < 1630778713 242319 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :HP's just introduced a "Chromebook x2 11" that supports the USI stylus standard, I've been hoping someone would review it for that sort of a use case. < 1630778868 461679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, peripherals. Apparently there's non-Wacom stuff in this area which is not completely unaffordable. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SR4615F/ < 1630778874 189566 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And PINE64 recently announced they're going to produce an e-ink thing called a PineNote that's something along the lines of the Remarkable, but that's quite a different thing, what with having a monochrome and inherently-slow-refresh-rate e-ink screen. < 1630778891 577575 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think the Wacom stuff qualifies as "completely unaffordable" any more. < 1630778903 649672 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It used to be a thing that Cintiq displays cost a whole lot of money, but now those really expensive ones have been rebranded "Cintiq Pro" and they've added two reasonably priced "basic" models, plus the Wacom One. < 1630779012 559049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm so they have. < 1630779016 322796 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The 16" Cintiq 16 costs $649.95, and the 13" Wacom One costs $399.95, in terms of the Wacom store list prices.) < 1630779054 674411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cintiq pro seems to start at $2k on Amazon < 1630779092 217288 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: hmm, my coworker recommended something that they were taking notes on, but becuse I don't want one, I don't remember what it was < 1630779097 792018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus it was partly software recommendation < 1630779516 731947 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wth is Windows S-mode... oh... full vendor lockin mode. < 1630779878 624494 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I heard something about that. < 1630779983 858478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my browsing drifted to cheap laptops) < 1630780036 886826 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course "S" officially stands for "secure" but it's really the walled garden kind of "security". < 1630780091 470290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not that I care all that much... as long as I can wipe it and install Linux. Which... well I guess I have to figure out for each model separately since we can no longer trust CPUs nor BIOSes to be open? < 1630780167 680543 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(CPU: https://www.servethehome.com/amd-psb-vendor-locks-epyc-cpus-for-enhanced-security-at-a-cost/ ...not sure whether this crap has made its way to non-server x86 hardware by now.) < 1630781716 357586 :kronk!~18137d14@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :kronk < 1630785483 603518 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630787258 163172 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630788765 347448 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630788832 629190 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630788841 233478 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630789522 50159 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are many things that I don't like about Wayland, so I won't use it. I think instead a improved version of X could be made (mostly the core X11 stuff but with some differences), and then using proxying for security. < 1630789828 717685 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630791642 97046 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, 2160x1440, that's an interesting resolution. (My browsing drifted to looking at first-impression comments on the HP x2 11, but nobody's been talking about the pen at all.) < 1630791688 160331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> 2160/1440 :: Rational < 1630791689 563755 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 3 % 2 < 1630791717 959546 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :3:2 is a nice aspect ratio though. My camera takes 3:2 pictures. < 1630791745 769637 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630791746 836547 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ rg "-V" ~/.rbenv/versions/2.3.8/ < 1630791746 872781 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ripgrep 12.1.1 < 1630791751 147511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not judging (I think 16:9 is too wide, personally); I was just too lazy to do the math < 1630791761 415119 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't grep for "-V" because it's a flag of a grep utility < 1630791762 408088 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'm a little worried about it being a ChromeOS device. I tried out a ChromeOS tablet with a pen once, and just couldn't figure out a way to make it do palm rejection at all, so it was really frustrating. That's why I've been thinking about the Wacom display: it doesn't do capacitive touch at all, so there's no need to worry about unintentional inputs. < 1630791787 616948 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Usually you pass arguments starting with a dash by doing -- before the arguments. < 1630791794 611738 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As in, `rg -- -V ...`. < 1630791826 500302 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :worked, thanks < 1630792191 526677 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630792223 514954 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sort-of want to rant about system programming languages and general-purpose pointers/references < 1630792254 615178 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630792258 278341 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two things you can do with a pointer: a) pointer arithmetic operations like offset, compare, etc.; and b) dereferencing it to get at the value you're pointing to < 1630792277 622440 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630792279 565318 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :operations in group a) are occasionally useful, but operations in group b) are much, much more common < 1630792293 929117 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, system programming languages seem to optimise for a) in practice < 1630792319 156462 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, Rust has a way to cast an &T into a *const T, and you can do this with any &T, with no restrictions < 1630792376 956921 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that any code that produces an &T needs to have an actual concrete memory location, with an address, for the thing that it points to, even though 99.9% of the time that's useless and the code you pass the &T to will only care about the thing it points to, not the location of the thing it points to < 1630792445 237868 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this seems like it could make optimisation much more difficult, e.g. you can *almost* optimize an &u32 into a u32 (i.e. replacing pass-by-reference with pass-by-value in a situation where the rules of the language prevent the reference target changing), but you can't, due to the off-chance that the program you pass the reference to cares about the address < 1630792490 321643 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm wondering how difficult it would be to make an optimiser that applies this optimisation anyway, and I'm wondering that it's likely to be too difficult in practice, and also suspect it may have a substantial performance impact < 1630792518 893008 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even if not at runtime, the compiler is going to need to do a lot of inlining, etc., to spot that the address isn't being used) < 1630792642 510103 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something similar happens to constants; often you care about their value but not their address, but the compiler can't safely merge two constants with the same value if their address might be relevant < 1630792656 231491 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(incidentally, NetHack contains at least one constant with an irrelevant value, which is used only for its address) < 1630792658 279897 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there is X on Wayland, but is there Wayland on X? < 1630792703 192918 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go has b-type pointers only. Which seems very reasonable to me, I don't know why more high-level languages don't have b-type pointers. < 1630792715 870133 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :C has a "register" command to indicate that taking the address is not possible. < 1630792719 218487 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Zig has distinct pointer types for a and b, I believe. < 1630792750 454549 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not that this really addresses the thing you were saying. < 1630792813 244232 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: see you tomorrow < 1630792823 51704 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think languages that have some sort of escape anaysis might be able to do this sort of thing? I vaguely remember that maybe Go does something like that to know whether it can stack-allocate pointers? < 1630792823 177722 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that having them separate is one of the better solutions < 1630792838 145653 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uh, stack-allocate values that it passes pointers to to things. < 1630792841 294608 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that Rust lifetimes might be abusable to track a-ness versus b-ness of a reference < 1630792865 846145 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, it wouldn't nest in the same way as other lifetimes < 1630792873 380617 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be nice for making code generic over pointer types though < 1630792893 297448 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think it would make sense to reuse the "register" keyword as "you can't take the address of this" < 1630792901 605201 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it would be quite a big change to the language < 1630792968 935619 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Isn't it already how the language works? < 1630792974 839789 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought that was the entire meaning of "register". < 1630792993 793030 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes but it's only usable in one context < 1630793000 298826 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is defining local variables (including function parameters) < 1630793007 720461 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I see. < 1630793021 386784 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't write int register* x < 1630793040 85161 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. < 1630793041 199716 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, int *register x < 1630793049 903259 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(whereas int *const x says that x is const) < 1630793057 920449 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, that *x is const < 1630793070 965585 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x is const would be int const * x or const int* x < 1630793098 266910 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C type syntax is a good example of how something can have a very simple specification but be utterly unintuitive in practice, and I'm out of practice with it < 1630793114 640075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hi ais523 < 1630793121 955542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I knew you'd be summoned eventually < 1630793122 888222 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the confusing syntax for types is the worst feature of C. < 1630793136 707748 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630793140 966758 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should I switch to writing const after the type, for consistency? < 1630793152 277028 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :int const x; instead of const int x; and so on. < 1630793158 37783 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think maybe I should. < 1630793174 155942 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I've been wondering about that < 1630793193 618681 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int const x; is more consistent, and makes the rules easier to remember; but const int x; is much harder to misinterpret < 1630793209 452968 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have gotten into the habit of writing *const rather than * const < 1630793212 300182 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing that made me remember how to make constant pointers and so on was when someone told me to think of it as a subscript. < 1630793218 896077 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :As in "int *_{const} x;" < 1630793222 604889 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I got taught that by a syntax reformatter, I forget which one) < 1630793257 587608 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630793261 331760 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder whether C's type syntax would be more readable if you just swapped the value and type < 1630793278 356088 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x: *const int versus x: const *int < 1630793303 757859 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that looks fairly intuitive? < 1630793311 174711 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not so sure const is even a good idea in C. < 1630793325 916268 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which is a separate matter from the syntax, of course. < 1630793328 584854 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x: (*int)(int, int) maybe less so < 1630793354 297179 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, that one's badly misleading, probably even ambiguous < 1630793366 91285 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :This argument was sort of convincing: https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/a99c9b2e2712deeb5f174553b4dc0c88 < 1630793391 749963 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd want to write the function pointer as *(int)(int, int) but that's not a simple swap of type and value < 1630793426 356805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "you can *almost* optimize an &u32 into a u32" => in rust, the solution to that is to always just pass the value in your code, like the u32 in this case, if it works, because if it's too large, the ABI will pass it as a pointer if it's large anyway. this doesn't work if you want the called function to mutate the value, or if the value isn't movable, but both of those invalidate that < 1630793426 508249 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my opinion of const in C is that it's badly designed, but still helps to catch enough errors that it's worth putting up with the design flaws and false positives < 1630793432 363188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :optimization; and also if the value is not compile time fixed length, but then passing it as a function argument is a hard problem in general. < 1630793468 897738 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it doesn't work well with generic code, or with non-Copy things < 1630793473 576275 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good example is Rc < 1630793491 296188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: in C++, the solution to that is this newfangled | qualifier, which I'm not sure if it actually got into C++ yet or is in proposal stage, which you use in a function argument, and means that the compiler can either write const & or nothing there, as in, pass the value either by const reference or by value < 1630793491 359269 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an Rc is 8 bytes long, and not Copy, but cloning it doesn't mutate the Rc itself (just the RcBox it points to) < 1630793521 339538 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I still haven't figured out what Cell and RefCell in Rust are. < 1630793525 904237 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you'd want to optimise &Rc into &RcBox to avoid the double indirection, but it's hard to see that that optimisation is valid (because someone might take the address of the Rc itself) < 1630793532 995708 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The documentation doesn't seem to answer that question. < 1630793545 729424 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I figured it out when I wrote code that needed a custom RefCell-like thing < 1630793570 467612 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the basic idea is, a Cell is something that can be mutated through a shared (&) pointer (whereas most things need an &mut pointer to be mutated) < 1630793576 36278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a reason why the actual thing you write differs in C++ vs rust, but it's irrelevant now, the main point is that both are trying to solve this and rust has solved it already < 1630793582 840589 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The memory layout of Cell is the same as T, right? < 1630793585 752850 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, you can have a Cell, for example, and write a new u32 to it < 1630793607 31849 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, memory layout is identical to T, you're just marking it as being mutatable even if there are references to it < 1630793620 499478 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is Cell something you need unsafe-or-similar to implement? < 1630793635 155720 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's implemented in terms of UnsafeCell, which is a compiler primitive < 1630793644 553829 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why doesn't being able to mutate it through & cause problems? < 1630793657 344155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are limits on the sort of mutations you can do < 1630793680 204931 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, you can only write an entire new value in, or something? < 1630793686 74731 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main rule is that you can `Copy` the value out of the cell, or overwrite a value into the cell, or swap the value in the cell with another, as long as it's only accessible from one thread < 1630793691 325926 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rather than getting a pointer to the thing? < 1630793692 881690 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, you can never get a reference to the value inside < 1630793697 623106 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. < 1630793715 298499 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`RefCell` is like `Cell` but does runtime checks rather than compile-time checks < 1630793716 317555 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :RefCell`? No such file or directory < 1630793733 857145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think people exaggerate how bad the C pointer/array/function thing is. it's something you have to learn once, but it's not something that will cause lots of hard to debug bugs in your program or anything. as problems with function languages go, it's mild. it's something only people who want to hate C will say. < 1630793748 883830 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can have fn f(a: &Cell, b: &Cell); let x: Cell; { f(&x, &x); }, and f doesn't care that the values alias. < 1630793755 365827 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can get a reference to the value inside, but only if there are no conflicting references, you get an error if you try to create a unique reference to it at the same time as any other sort of reference < 1630793761 152988 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :another bad thing about C is the build system stuff < 1630793766 207404 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: right < 1630793773 27662 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it behaves sort of like "void f(u32 *a, u32 *b);" in C, where the compiler can't assume anything. < 1630793773 43866 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :C should be designed so that it can be compiled easier < 1630793783 372301 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: exactly < 1630793788 958045 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, got it, that makes sense. < 1630793806 347933 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why does RefCell need runtime checks? What does it let you do? < 1630793811 244896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also you didn't react to what I wrote about Infinite Vector, so now I have to ask you < 1630793820 902305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: does what I wrote about Infinite Vector sound right? < 1630793826 666358 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it lets you take a reference to the inside of the cell, but the runtime checks make sure that there aren't too many < 1630793833 126355 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it looked plausible but I didn't want to think about it too deeply < 1630793837 718138 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not surprised it's TC < 1630793838 189854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630793854 757389 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha. RefCell lets you borrow the inside of the cell. < 1630793857 830991 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1630793868 647360 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In particular it lets you take any number of const references or at most one mut reference? < 1630793873 235382 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630793880 640201 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Makes sense! < 1630793885 669829 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the type system doesn't prevent you doing both at once, which is why the runtime checks are needed < 1630793890 269805 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. < 1630793892 111907 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know why they don't say that in the documentation. < 1630793913 855648 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I asked someone about it, and they gave an explanation that would have required Cell to have a different memory layout from T. < 1630793928 94970 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's technically correct but misses the point < 1630793939 284952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stuff about Infinite Vector at https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-08-31.html#lrc for future reference < 1630793976 103794 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RefCell needs a reference count to count the borrows, which does give a different memory layout, but the point is more that you need runtime checks to count the borrows < 1630793984 884128 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but Cell doesn't. < 1630793992 397831 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, because it can't be borrowed at all < 1630793995 305596 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So then we were both confused. < 1630794011 18366 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway this makes sense, thanks for clarifying. < 1630794042 328329 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe one day I'll understand Pin. < 1630794044 65098 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice Cell works best on things that are `Copy` and fairly small, so that you'd have little reason to borrow it (and don't need to swap a placeholder value in when you take the old value out) < 1630794046 361430 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630794075 432249 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If "swap the value and type" means "pull out the identifier from the declarator, and then write the type name after it", I don't know how much that would help, since simple things are already simple, and complex declarators are probably even worse to read when the identifier isn't in there to show where to start from. < 1630794078 52750 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go does the "strictly separate the identifier and type name" thing, but it *also* moves the [] syntax to be prefix to match *, and uses a keyword to introduce function types, which does a lot of the heavy lifting of making type names more "linear". < 1630794091 163263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that's deliberately hard. you have three options: move the Rc if you no longer need it, in which case you just pass by value; or if you do need it but the called function doesn't need to keep a reference but only look at the pointed value now, then pass a reference to the pointed value, it will be valid because you're the caller and you're keeping the copy of the Rc; or if both of you < 1630794097 171367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :need it, then clone the Rc explicitly, but that's something Rust doesn't want to do implicitly without you actually writing .clone() < 1630794106 174405 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Go syntax for types seems mostly better than the C syntax. < 1630794111 287237 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some of it is a little odd but it's fine. < 1630794127 535367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that third thing is rare < 1630794129 91663 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: this mostly comes up with generic code < 1630794129 199831 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Presumably you should have a really good reason not to make your programming language syntax LL(1). < 1630794134 238116 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is the Go syntax LL(1)? < 1630794147 811949 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all generic code assumes that the receiver for methods that don't need to mutate self is &self < 1630794166 389985 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :mostly people just code without thinking or caring about theory < 1630794169 390088 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, not quite apparently. < 1630794171 582015 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so things end up not being LL(1) < 1630794187 85708 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember there's an annoying syntax quirk in Go where you sometimes need to add ()s around the controlling expression of an `if` statement, when there's {}s involved in the expression as well. < 1630794196 670196 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my opinion on this is that you normally have a separate parser and lexer anyway, so few languages are LL(1) at the byte level < 1630794200 107549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: really? aren't you confusing that with C++ or with run-time dynamic type dispatch code? < 1630794209 986771 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes LL(1) in terms of tokens < 1630794215 231640 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the token language should be regular < 1630794232 716401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: no, I think that's only true for LR(1), not for LL(1) < 1630794236 711252 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: my opinion on this is that it'd be great if the parser and lexer could be combined < 1630794248 313174 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i suppose they can be combined < 1630794262 177859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, simpler languages will be LL(1) < 1630794265 609486 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's good if they can be separated in terms of specification < 1630794270 65371 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: something that always amazes me is that the syntax of yacc (after tokenisation) is LR(2) but not LR(1) < 1630794285 295126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: heh < 1630794286 989608 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some yacc implementations work around this by getting the lexer to do an extra token of lookahead < 1630794291 340617 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I should learn how LR parsers work. < 1630794293 186368 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's crazy that it technically can't parse itself < 1630794306 831865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that because there's no separator (semicolon) between the rules? < 1630794309 113554 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even more crazy that it's LR with a finite number that isn't 1 < 1630794328 956078 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is so funny < 1630794331 918065 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, semicolons are optional, and to parse the case where they're missing you need two tokens of lookahead < 1630794348 635687 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :odd < 1630794359 120547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder why they defined yacc syntax like that < 1630794374 505742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there some history behind it? < 1630794374 821217 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was probably some sort of historical accident? < 1630794385 339798 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yacc probably wasn't originally programmed in itself, as it'd have been a pain to bootstrap < 1630794388 513415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like trying to unify the syntax of two incompatible parser generator syntaxes? < 1630794394 192738 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so probably there was a hand-rolled parser, which wasn't necessarily going to be LR < 1630794408 824738 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :given that the name starts "ya", though, there must have been a number of parser generators before it < 1630794409 543718 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :they could have still designed it to be LR(1) :P < 1630794412 157690 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i really love this fact < 1630794429 38507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but whoever thought, let's write an LR(1) parser generator, they probably understood what makes a language LR(1), and automatically used such a syntax < 1630794450 70270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have a shift/reduce parser in your brain? I'm pretty sure I don't. < 1630794453 788362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not like back when nobody knew how parsing is supposed to work, so they just wrote up syntax and figured out afterwards how to parse it, which is supposedly how fortran was born < 1630794469 739407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also pretty sure that while the brain has limited lookahead, the limit isn't 1. < 1630794484 369546 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been wondering about extensions to shift/reduce automata < 1630794504 850499 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shift/reduce/rewind seems to have a lot of power, whilst still being efficient if you put appropriate limitations on it (it's probably TC if you don't put limitations on it) < 1630794514 788031 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, maybe LBA rather than TC < 1630794551 623723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is "LBA"? < 1630794565 240600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :linearly bounded automaton < 1630794579 881348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :memory bound to O(n) where n is input size? < 1630794584 729199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :logical block addressing < 1630794587 822381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :little big adventure < 1630794599 476443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, what does LBA stand for < 1630794599 708252 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you should avoid using it for is to eliminate the usage of funky python. < 1630794600 456758 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right < 1630794614 648044 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you get O(n) memory where n is the number of bits in the input < 1630794619 686931 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? lba < 1630794621 597912 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing. < 1630794645 378061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may be responsible for that one < 1630794649 178944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cwlprits lba < 1630794652 253905 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-̈e < 1630794663 12375 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, LBA was such a big upgrade over Illogical Block Addressing. < 1630794673 522393 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why did they even start with that scheme? < 1630794707 383244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :physical addressing by head, cylinder, sector? < 1630794722 141179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine it matched the hardware better at the time < 1630794741 579593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: because they designed the PC before DOS brought in the unix heritage of linearly addressed block devices < 1630794773 96048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also before HDDs made tracks have different numbers of sectors depending on how long they are < 1630794802 455276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and automatically remap bad sectors and all that < 1630794828 181567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't want to put too much complicated logic in the disk contorller, and especially not in the disk, because electronics was expensive, and there's already a CPU that can compute everything for you, so the CPU computes the cylinder, head, sector addresses and tells that to the disk controller < 1630794840 306083 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1630794855 727483 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, disk controllers run pretty powerful processors < 1630794871 759603 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :SSD controllers are presumably just ridiculous. < 1630794873 847608 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen blog posts where people reprogrammed them to do interesting tihngs < 1630794886 946194 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And they should stop presenting a block device interface. < 1630794894 726140 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and communicated with their software by writing files with particular text in < 1630794904 914426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and funnily the C64's disk drive also runs a CPU about as powerful as the computer, but note that the disk drive is optional and also can be shared between multiple computers < 1630794914 452099 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What would a good interface for SSD controllers be like? < 1630794946 932814 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one complication is working out who's responsible for the filesystem, the SSD controller or the operating system < 1630794951 280975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hrm which computer had a full CPU as floppy disk controller? < 1630794953 380104 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another thing I was wondering about was whether desktop computers should have some amount of NVRAM that's exposed directly to applications. < 1630794972 750406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what we want more these days is reprogramming them to *not* do interesting things, in particular, not handle shingled storage, so that the OS can handle it itself and as such better optimize it together with the file system < 1630794985 178585 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: they do, but you have to jump through lots of hoops to get at it < 1630794998 117338 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You mean in an SSD? < 1630794998 395135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh b_jonas answered that < 1630795003 553026 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also it normally belongs to the BIOS/UEFI so you can damage your bootloader if you mess with it < 1630795041 936986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than, as the current state is, the hard disk manufacturer is in a war with the OS, it tries to pretend very hard that it's not a shingled drive, until one day you write too many things to it too fast, at which point it freezes for half an hour to rewrite all the data on it, the OS decides that your drive is dead and removes it from the RAID array, and you can no longer make cheap RAID setups from < 1630795044 545903 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: apparently a major problem in practice is that they often lie about what they're doing to get beterr performance metrics < 1630795046 208121 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just mean a region of RAM that's guaranteed to be dumped to disk on power loss. < 1630795047 980512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cheap drives < 1630795074 273972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, this is for hard disks specifically, not for SSDs < 1630795076 136338 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: ah, I see < 1630795106 25718 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-2: the Commodore 64 had a full CPU in the floppy disk controller. just not too much RAM. < 1630795110 660893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ^ < 1630795116 257040 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently even getting journalled filesystems to work correctly on power loss is difficult, because there are all sorts of error conditions like "the CPU browned out and gave bad data to the disk controller" < 1630795151 48042 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but still enough RAM to load enough code to it to completely upgrade how it reads and writes disks, rather than using its original ROM code, and still have enough buffers for that read/write thing < 1630795151 774904 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd need the motherboard to carefully orchestrate the order in which various components lost power when the power was cut, probably with a number of capacitors to provide emergency powre for a clean shutdown < 1630795250 480560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think the journaled thing came up more with old SSDs, because they were small and mostly intended as removable storage (pendrives), while I think (hope) it's mostly solved now with modern SSDs that are originally intended to be used as the main storage in computers < 1630795251 406666 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing that briefly surprised me is that my SSD has done a lot more writes than reads. < 1630795259 980015 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :18.1 TB read, 31.6 TB written. < 1630795268 815603 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a nice demo for the 1541 disk drive. < 1630795278 331875 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it makes sense because in steady state everything I use fits in the page cache, so there's no reason to ever read. < 1630795280 658928 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://cdm.link/2021/07/freespin-is-a-demo-made-for-the-commodore-1541-no-not-the-computer-just-the-floppy-drive/ < 1630795298 62095 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you always need to write for durability. My browser writes its state every time I open a new tab or even scroll, I think. < 1630795300 8060 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It bit-bangs a composite video signal out of the serial port. < 1630795304 686670 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do I see my read/write stats? < 1630795316 627362 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC, you need to use a computer to load it, but can disconnect the computer once it's up and running. < 1630795317 689786 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So having a region of memory you can write things to that's durable but will almost certainly be overwritten right away seems like it could be very useful. < 1630795383 581789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tweaked my browser.sessionstore.interval to be 3 minutes. < 1630795386 408014 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.quiss.org/freespin/ would've been a better link I think. < 1630795410 356503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Default is 15 seconds. < 1630795416 732869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Firefox) < 1630795434 656318 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: Mine's even more unbalanced: 535 GB read, 6.86 TB written. < 1630795453 921291 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: so basically a write-behind cache which you have little intention of ever flushing early but will get flushed on power failure, that does seem useful < 1630795462 892828 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's the opposite safety characteristics to a typical write-behind cache < 1630795465 964342 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :When I first saw these numbers, I did a read of the entire SSD, which added 1TB, to see how long it'd take. < 1630795497 906894 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. < 1630795522 509482 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe the OS interface can just be a regular file with a hint that you want it in this region, or something. < 1630795545 3384 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :For all I know SSD controllers already do a good job at this. < 1630795552 165776 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though I kind of doubt it, they just don't have enough information. < 1630795586 590087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh my SSD doesn't report blocks read... odd? < 1630795627 768922 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :got this https://dpaste.org/3ZTZ/slim < 1630795645 425990 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. The spinning disk is the exact opposite, at 37B units written and 476B units read. I don't know what the units are for "Total_LBAs_Written" and "Total_LBAs_Read". For the (NVMe) SSD, smartctl reported them in a human-readable form. < 1630795655 949544 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm using this machine for 2 years now < 1630795671 918670 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :compared to your stats I guess it's a lot ( maybe damn google chrome? < 1630795763 898135 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :SSD NAND flash is getting worse and worse to increase density, which makes these things more important. < 1630795834 778399 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :as I understand the disk is dead when Available Spare goes down to Available Spare Threshold < 1630795875 83552 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I've got a (someone else's spare) SATA SSD that I use as a dual-boot (more like a never-boot) Windows drive, and I can't find any read/write stats for it either from smartctl -a output. < 1630795897 763242 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: The Internet is saying you should multiply by the "Sector Size" field, if you have one. < 1630795934 29196 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Sector Sizes: 512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical" < 1630795992 903908 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: this one reports lbas written, but not lbas read. < 1630795993 928016 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so you've written 19 logical TB and 152 physical TB. < 1630795996 406737 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Simple enough. < 1630796003 607824 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What an amplification factor! < 1630796009 182269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I guess makes some sense for NAND storage < 1630796047 724320 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This one doesn't report either. It reports a number of "Unknown_JMF_Attribute"s, but they're all 0s. < 1630796068 947379 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've moved this SSD across several laptops by now. < 1630796082 782950 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how old it is. < 1630796111 691180 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if there would be any sort of benefit to trying to figure out some way of telling Linux that it should keep that particular SATA device just permanently powered down, since it's never going to be intentionally used. < 1630796123 244375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the spinning rust reports a higher Head_Flying_Hours value than Power_On_Hours ...I guess it's sleepflying < 1630796134 806657 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Date first available" for this model is apparently 2016. < 1630796148 693709 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's not a huge difference, about 2%) < 1630796154 216923 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's Terminal I suppose https://i.imgur.com/ggTnoDB.png I noticed before, probably because I set the buffer limit to infinity and if something prints a lot it goes to the disk; I wonder if swap usage is added as a specific app stat < 1630796191 303786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: wait, I think there's interface for that in /proc or /sys or something < 1630796210 872135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I mean it's something you have to rerun after every boot, and the BIOS might power it on first < 1630796216 334172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but after that it keeps it powered down < 1630796232 465936 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I don't boot that often. I just wonder if it would be a noticeable benefit in terms of... something. < 1630796334 15625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no idea < 1630796387 372572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really trust SSDs too much yet < 1630796404 716970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean they're great for caching, but save everything to a hard disk too < 1630796421 380551 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also this other SATA SSD (the one I used to have in my desktop before), and that one reports via SMART counters called Read_Sectors_Tot_Ct and Write_Sectors_Tot_Ct; that one's saying 1.74 TiB read and 5.52 TiB written. < 1630796465 562015 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas lol you've hightlighted someone < 1630796498 422126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :quite possible, some people have nicks that are common words < 1630796674 709638 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I should get a new SSD. < 1630796764 260467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a new SSD. I bought it with the new computer in 2020-10. I'm not using it yet, but I have it. < 1630796790 913837 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder, maybe typical modern SSDs are actually slower than what I have, because they use TLC (or even QLC?). < 1630796825 49001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had the intent to mostly use it as read cache (no writeback cache) for the hard disk file systems, for which there are like two different mechanisms in Linux already, < 1630796858 744169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then I got distracted by the shingled hard disk RAID thing, and I definitely don't want to set up the read cache before I set up the RAID, because the cache has to go *over* the RAID layer < 1630796872 269526 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least I should understand how the whole thing works before I set it up < 1630796931 208869 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that only those people who bother with RAID get their data lost < 1630796937 88175 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never bothered and never lost anything < 1630796950 908459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I deliberately bought a better computer than I need right now, so I don't have to get back to the hard process of selecting and buying computer parts, and wanted a configuration that can fit together < 1630797000 910120 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder. RAID doesn't make sense for large distributed systems, and consumers don't use it, so the range of applications seems very limited. < 1630797012 158740 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like RAID -- is a technology to lose data, not preserve < 1630797017 732842 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course that never works out, because (1) I need a new monitor now, and (2) I deliberately didn't buy a video card, only a motherboard with a free slot for video card, thinking that when I need a video card, I just buy one, but BANG advanced electronics shortage, prices shooting up, nope, you can't just buy a video card when you need it < 1630797062 384142 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What multiplier does the shortage increase price by? < 1630797069 976598 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it ~2x or ~10x or what? < 1630797085 672843 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: no clue < 1630797089 789811 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two relevant shortages I think < 1630797103 759487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, the other is building supplies, especially steel < 1630797111 416573 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of them hit high-end GPUs in particular, the prices of those went up by a lot, but lower-end GPUs were mostly unaffected < 1630797114 263024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that one doesn't affect me so directly < 1630797117 188417 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other one is more general-purpose < 1630797142 928336 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm in the UK, which currently has shortages of pretty much everything due to a lack of transport < 1630797163 908403 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't say that I won't build a house now because I can just have it built later when I need it, unlike the video card thing < 1630797168 242610 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(after brexit the amount of paperwork involved in international trade has gone way up, and scared a lot of people out of the field, so there's a shortage of employees) < 1630797199 826581 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :How much does it cost to build a house normally? < 1630797211 673974 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and even in the EU, trade from outside the EU (as in, importing the cheap electronics from East Asia) got somewhat harder < 1630797227 379886 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I looked at bcache a little. It feels like it would be nice to have some sort of automation as to what to put on the SSD and what to keep on the spinning disks, rather than having to manually make that decision by choosing a location in the filesystem. < 1630797235 332120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: no idea, I don't want to have one built ever in my life < 1630797245 917956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I have to build one, then free market economy failed me < 1630797256 239254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to rent apartments forever, and if I can't, the market sucks < 1630797266 366552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even then I'll probably just buy a (used) house, I won't have one built < 1630797306 35695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I never researched it < 1630797327 225221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I won't have to, because building houses is mostly for people who want to live in the suburbs or agglomeration < 1630797346 810032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to live in a city, which is already densely packed with houses, and every free space immediately has a house built < 1630797370 302555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I knew a few people who do the suburb or agglomeration thing < 1630797382 375230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's definitely not the kind of life that I want < 1630797420 528575 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder why people don't normally talk about used / second-hand houses < 1630797427 188868 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably because that's the norm in many countries < 1630797438 636552 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've heard people use that term. < 1630797447 255695 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630797485 558055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: probably because nobody buys a whole new house. people either buy an apartment in a house that may be new, or have a custom house built < 1630797496 663436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want a whole house, and new, you want to customize it < 1630797552 1107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second apartment that I lived in (moved there when I was about 10 years old) was in a new house, as in, my parents reserved it and partly payed it when the house wasn't even yet built < 1630797552 78377 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not necessarily < 1630797579 140855 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :near here there are lots of new houses being built to standard designs, and then people buy them new, but with no input into the design < 1630797579 904256 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm weirded out by the "house" thing, and the UK notion of a "housing ladder", which you're supposed to use to climb up to a house, since I've exclusively lived in apartments that are units of much larger buildings, and don't find that odd. (That's at least partially orthogonal to the question about the ownership model though.) < 1630797582 258285 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1630797590 948620 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have relatives who were considering buying one, but didn't like the design so chose not to) < 1630797638 100061 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the housing ladder exists, but choosing to participate in it is optional, and seems to be mostly due to people who have an idealistic idea of what people's lives should be like < 1630797659 919315 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it is talked about a whole lot, it feels like. < 1630797661 519049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there are a few places where that happens, yes. my brother lives in a house that was probably originally built that way, because it's in a neighborhood with like a hundred family-sized houses built to the same template < 1630797672 618037 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right < 1630797686 12358 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems very common here (Birmingham specifically, I don't know whether it applies to the UK in general but it may do) < 1630797749 276642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's too common here in Hungary < 1630797752 961826 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it exists, but rare < 1630797762 707222 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another thing that seems very UK-specific is this whole leasehold thing. < 1630797765 166138 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess people who can spend their money less practically have to be fooled, they have to be tricked to participate in the game of who will be the first buyer of a house and who'll be a "loser" to be the second buyer of it -- it just helps the builders to sell the stuff faster for their business < 1630797883 952321 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think being the first occupant of a house is considered a huge advantage here < 1630797903 471583 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people care more about the location and size of the house than the number of previous owners < 1630798275 968081 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I knew a guy who was renting a 1 room flat in a very cool place in the city, it costed him 6 times more than my place, there was almost no profit in living there other than a bit smaller commute time, but mostly it was just about to be proud of where he lives < 1630798278 385498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'll have to edit the Infinity Vector page to give at least a summary of the Turing-completeness proof < 1630798370 196140 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :places like Cambridge and London seem to cause a vortex of price equalisation which caps the price of accommodation from below at the price in the centre minus the price to commute there < 1630798384 939291 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this can extend out hundreds of miles in some cases < 1630798426 986782 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, you can get the train from Norwich to London, so prices to live near a train station in Norwich are pretty high, taking only the cost of the train journey (which is not cheap!) into account < 1630798605 646293 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like that's not quite true. Or at least that there's a pretty big variation in prices *within* London, bigger than could be explained by any transportation differences. < 1630798608 719997 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A little hard to say though. All I've seen are those "average property price" maps, and they're presumably quite a lot affected by what kind of properties there *are* in a region. < 1630798698 152175 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, transportation within London is actually fairly difficult, to the extent that it can be a significant portion of the travel time when taking journeys where London is one endpoint < 1630798718 160285 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has a good public transport network (although pretty bad roads), but not enough transport capacity < 1630798789 863214 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the problem is basically just that the population density is too high and the workplace density is also too high < 1630798806 125881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if businesses spread out more over the country rather than all grouping in one place, there'd be less of an issue < 1630798834 678011 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hate that they group < 1630798959 619161 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :even in the industrial age the factories were all spread, why the hell not IT companies all get crowded in centers? < 1630798967 718528 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*now < 1630798994 772295 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they don't have metal to be moved, they can work remotely, etc. < 1630799076 516444 :Koen__!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630799133 253571 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I fucked up my health on one job with boss with a mania of having everyone being at their desks, not even spend 5 extra minutes on a dinner break; he could even come in and verbally shame someone in openspace in front of coworkers for "eating too slow" and such < 1630799227 311601 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630799240 117640 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this was making people so stressed to be in place no matter what, for some even if their flat gets water flooded by a neighbor, for me it was ignoring the hurt it my back that I never had to ignore... < 1630799278 831949 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*in < 1630799331 885783 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot are you a remote worker? < 1630799332 237942 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: do you know that in knuth's volume 1 a different formula is used, ( k val...) returns as if it were, would be possible < 1630799417 204675 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A "remote worker" in fungot context would probably be some sort of a Befunge-as-a-service cloud thing. < 1630799417 579363 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: i would probably make more sense. or use lambdas. they might handle them with pieces tables ( make sense if hash maps wouldn't be better to have a coral reef. < 1630799492 591078 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :he knows about AWS lambdas < 1630799713 624927 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630800299 820396 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there should be a fungeoid with subroutines defined as rectangles anywhere so to call them you reach them from any of 4 sides and any row and column within their size; they take the arg and start their work internally from the local (0,0); not sure about the exit < 1630800315 437371 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh maybe you should exit from the directly the other side of where you came from < 1630800453 20876 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference from the befunge is that there is a toroidal wrapping inside the subroutine so you can't exit its bounds unless using a special "return" instruction < 1630800486 835776 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you are free to wrap around without worrying about where exactly you place the subroutine within the whole program < 1630800498 42935 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :just connect them with "wires" of <>v^ < 1630800546 415969 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, that's novel. I think there's some "Befunge with functions" variants, but they have "non-physical" function calls, instead of having to route the execution into the function (and handle returns as well). < 1630800590 362259 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least with the "exit from the opposite side" approach you wouldn't need the usual "push a 'return address' and switch on exit" kind of thing to make a subroutine you can use from more than one place. < 1630800625 999408 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As long as you route each call in from a different direction, anyway. < 1630800803 529767 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can call some small rect subroutine from thousand of places probably if you attach a "bus" to it < 1630800822 724672 :Koen__!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630800850 48203 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :some another block with a plenty of inputs and outputs but calling the "small subroutine" in one place < 1630800969 91191 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then such embedding subroutines into rects allows you to create a address-agnostic drag-n-drop IDE with autotracing < 1630801120 259450 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but then you need a return switch. < 1630801171 498011 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a "bus", you lose information where it was called from, meaning you'll have to push something on the stack and then branch on that something on the way back. < 1630801188 805315 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I used wrong word < 1630801249 247797 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or not < 1630801255 128248 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I understand < 1630801292 471183 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah one single output pin address < 1630801417 540589 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can create/resize such buses automatically, while the subroutine knows nothing about it < 1630801597 731576 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a few "subroutine"-like sections in fungot, like the brainfuck-to-bytecode translation, which is used by both `^def foo bf ...` and `^bf ...`, and those are done using that mechanism. The vertical sequences on the rightmost edge of lines 229-231, 235-240 and 262-267 are the three different destinations a program preparation subroutine can return to (the ^bf, ^ul and ^def handlers). < 1630801608 780369 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: or was it netscape?) was beaten up in otaniemi by fellow students. < 1630801704 336873 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, I wonder what the context for that second part is. < 1630801735 810202 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that DEFine and UnLearn or something? < 1630801769 696656 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's ^def for define, and ^bf + ^ul for straight-up immediate execution of brainfuck and Underload, respectively. < 1630801784 736988 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1630801849 339686 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have to say, for large Befunge programs some sort of auto-routing tool would probably be useful. < 1630801893 503021 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Do you think a modern instruction set would actually have Checkout-style instructions? < 1630801927 748160 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not clear to me whether "the things a CPU actually does" make for the best encoding to give a program to a CPU. < 1630801932 954268 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I think Checkout is too extreme, and probably a bad idea because letting the processor infer things saves bandwidth < 1630801938 714643 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Compared to out-of-order execution and register renaming and so on. < 1630801955 391975 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :modern instruction sets do have a few Checkout-style instructions; some of them aren't widely used because actually decoding the instruction costs more than the hint saves < 1630801972 797841 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Register renaming is a good example, I guess. A CPU has hundreds of registers, but you want instructions to be compact, so you may not actually want instructions to be able to address all of them. < 1630801996 350788 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few instructions for manual cache control that do genuinely seem to help in practice, though, and that nonetheless aren't widely used < 1630801997 460475 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, a good example of the general thing I'm getting at, not something Checkout-specific. < 1630802026 410621 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, nontemporal read-write is easily worth the cost of decoding if you have an algorithm where it's useful < 1630802032 366105 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* non-temporal read/write < 1630802088 135087 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have test programs which read and write memory in lots of different ways, and nontemporal memory access is the only thing that makes a real difference, due to where the bottlenecks are < 1630802164 509239 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(non-temporal memory operations say "I want to read/write this memory now, but don't subsequently plan to read/write the memory again until after it's fallen out of cache"; in theory they work at cache line granularity, but the API for them reads in smaller chunks and you write several instructions in a row to cover the whole cache line or the part you care about) < 1630802186 619168 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"some sort of auto-routing" this all will break if there are are g and p < 1630802208 37456 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is a pretty common performance pattern to have, whereas if you just use the default caching rules, you have all this data that's crowding things out of the cache and is completely useless < 1630802243 719132 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, even without the extra cache pressure, non-temporal is a little faster at writing to / reading from main memory (but slower for writes/reads that would go to/come from cache, for obvious reasons) < 1630802273 634036 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a hint rather than a promise, too, so there's no undefined behaviour if you actually do need the value earlier than you said you would, just the processor has to slow down a little to find it < 1630802328 434235 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, modern CPUs are so complicated. < 1630802366 558539 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I learned that was sort of surprising is that the common case (?) for instructions that have a register input isn't to read from the register file. < 1630802384 556389 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the permanent register file hardly ever gets used in practice < 1630802389 455325 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least for out-of-order processors, where the input for the instruction was likely just made available. < 1630802397 399462 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :So instead most things go through the bypass network, or something. < 1630802399 344197 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, well. In fungot's case, almost all g/p are to the first few rows (because the addresses are shorter), plus the "negative space", so as long as that's kept clear, it'd be fine. < 1630802405 957413 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only when you haven't touched a register for so long that the reorder buffer has forgotten the value, but you surprisingly actually still care about the value < 1630802407 140887 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: or actually, don't. but if you don't use empty in production code < 1630802424 336719 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also in Funge-98 g/p are local to the storage offset, so subroutines that need "local" fungespace storage *could* be position-independent. < 1630802434 615802 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the permanent register file normally isn't actually any slower to read than the reorder buffer, though, although a few processors can't read it twice in the same cycle) < 1630802437 616008 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(You'd just need to reset and restore the storage offset properly.) < 1630802558 289829 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :out-of-order execution bothers me a little because it's mostly just working around bad compilers; the only times it gives an advantage over putting the instructions in the correct order to start with are a) when you want to perform some instructions from inside a loop after it's ended / before it's started (so you'd need to peel a few iterations to reorder manually), or b) when instructions take varying times to execute due to caching effects < 1630802569 672624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b) is a pretty big reason, though < 1630802599 718179 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :b seems like most of the point, doesn't it? < 1630802612 856792 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630802623 872842 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good compilers can't do much about that. < 1630802628 826550 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I'm not sure it actually speeds things up that much in practice < 1630802653 70886 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Mill people claim it doesn't, and you can get away with static scheduling if you're clever. < 1630802656 198878 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure. < 1630802671 507703 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your data is in main memory the reorder buffer won't help because it'll fill up before you get the data you need < 1630802686 43189 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The sequence 0{2u02-u2} sets an arbitrary storage offset (, ), and leaves the previous storage offset on the stack. < 1630802698 223709 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's something like L1 versus L2 cache then it might help, though, the difference between those is only a few cycles < 1630802779 544057 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Apple M1 has a 600-entry reorder buffer or something like that, people say. < 1630802789 397976 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, only when the dependency chains were short enough that you're bound on L2 latency < 1630802790 163107 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But helping with L2/L3 is surely still a big deal. < 1630802840 291292 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Someone gave this example: "x = *p; y = *q; [process x]; [process y]; result = x + y;" < 1630802847 274264 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm finding it hard to think of an application where a) data is frequently in L2 or L3, but b) you can't just move the read of it earlier, and c) all this somehow forms a dependency chain so that you end up with a loop-carried dependency < 1630802863 493010 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: what are you doing with result? < 1630802881 588628 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get a meaningful slowdown this needs to be in a loop and result needs to influence p or q somehow < 1630802908 922744 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, *p and/or *q need to be in unpredictable cache hierarchy levels < 1630802921 987134 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it certainly seems possible, but this doesn't seem like a common case < 1630802942 5911 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some sort of linked list traversal, perhaps? but why would the list be in varying cache levels? < 1630802993 313848 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't work with local offsets < 1630803000 215267 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just made RASEL to not bother ..D < 1630803030 639206 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I've ever actually used the storage offset, I think it's mostly a bother in at least small-to-medium sized programs like fungot. < 1630803038 641157 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: his syntax is a non-standard extension to receive, though, the empty < 1630803041 734763 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I even have implemented them in my half-done funge-98 interpreter but didn't test it < 1630803091 911311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, non-temporal read? I haven't considered that for cpu caching, probably because neither x86 nor MMIX seems to have it. is it actually worth? for reading files non-temporary it exists (posix_fadvise and madvise), but that's different < 1630803123 117737 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas SSE2 (or SSE1, I don't know which) has a non-temporal write instruction or two < 1630803168 536427 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I more often want to refer to "absolute" addresses from all around the program (as the equivalent of "global variables"), or just very temporary scratch space (which can be anywhere) as opposed to needing "scoped" local storage. Though it might be useful for position-independent self-modifying code too. < 1630803196 544669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think non-temporal read is even reasonably possible, as in, just supporting it would require too much cost for programs that never use it < 1630803201 149723 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MOVNTDQA is the non-temporal read < 1630803205 403069 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SSE4.1, apparently < 1630803222 9415 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although AVX/AVX2 also implement it < 1630803232 31494 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I was just imagining for (i = 0; i < n; i++) { x = a[i]; y = b[i]; ... } < 1630803274 925908 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: you can prefetch x and y in that example < 1630803292 43188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"the permanent register file" => there is a permanent register file? I thought registers always lived on the one temporary register file, and that one is huge because it has to save enough register values to roll back to several different points before instructions that are not yet finalized < 1630803293 663751 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :modern processors have prefetch hints for this, but don't actually need them; they'll notice you're accessing incrementing addresses and pull the next few elements into cache just in case < 1630803307 243308 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's faster to not give the prefetch hints because they're effectively no-ops and tkae some time to decode < 1630803311 266786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why would there be a separate permanent register file? < 1630803327 488433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean maybe for special registers that never go to the normal register file < 1630803339 407650 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in case you haven't used a register for so long that it isn't in the register renamer < 1630803355 519763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those wouldn't be in a file I think, unless they're so useless they're basically never used for anything on a fast path < 1630803361 753211 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the renamer works by changing instructions from "eax" to "internal register 54" or whatever < 1630803381 160547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, if you don't use eax at all for a while, there'll be no instructions to rename, so it needs a permanent file to say "this register is rax" < 1630803402 379208 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could just have a permanent place to store "rax is register 54" but you may as well store the value of rax there, rather than a reference to it, and save one register < 1630803430 362151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :out of order execution => hmm, that's an interesting point. I never thought of it like that, because pentiums were already out when I started to try to understand what x86 even does, so I took out of order execution for granted < 1630803474 78791 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in rasel there is a "problem" about the stack addressing such that the address often has to be adjust by 1, 2, 3 depending on in which place and which "routine" you use it < 1630803483 484611 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the stack size is always different < 1630803521 635723 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :once you add something somewhere in the middle of the routine all the following usings of that stack address should know it's not 1 off < 1630803525 25981 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*now < 1630803528 444169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm still quite sure I don't understand cpus enough to be able to figure out what would make their design better or worse, I'm still at the stage where I mostly try to understand how to use the existing (future high-end x86) cpus well, and a very little of understanding why some of the apparently very odd designs in the cpu may potentially be worth even though it doesn't seem like they can ever < 1630803534 611476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :be < 1630803645 632520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: doesn't out of order execution also help because it allows for more compact code, as in more instructions that can only be coded in-place, or fewer registers that you can name? < 1630803651 275348 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it would be a "common operation" to 1. take the stack address at N and then 2. add N to it before using it in swapn < 1630803740 170420 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh right, yes, I knew that once but I'd forgotten about it < 1630803751 184338 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one big benefit of out-of-order execution is saving on register names in the machine code < 1630803775 915281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it lets you place instructions in the order that uses the fewest register names, rather than needing to look for the most efficient order (which generally involves spreading dependency chains out through the code) < 1630803787 651041 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for reminding me of this, that's a very big reason to have out of order execution < 1630803851 971363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MOVNTDQA => you're right. I'm just stupid then. that is a genuine useful non-temporal read that I absolutely should have known about. < 1630803893 927481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, and more importantly denser code because you can have instructions that reference memory directly; without instruction reordering you'd need a separate load (or prefetch) and arithmetic instruction < 1630803897 838554 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's confusing because the difference between -A and regular instructions is normally alignment < 1630803912 659922 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, MOVNTDQ and MOVNTDQA are both aligned-only, the difference is write versus read < 1630803915 507963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's probably even more important than the register count and stuff < 1630803921 662554 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to read the documentation about three times to figure out what the difference was < 1630803964 381126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and then I guess you'd also need more register names for those reads) < 1630803981 735458 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically any time you load from outside L2 cache, you couldn't combine it with the instruction that uses that load < 1630803992 608024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the CPU couldn't reorder anything between < 1630804005 781761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a real pentium (or other reordering cpu) will reorder instructions between those < 1630804041 627644 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any online dictionary that would immediately give a meaning of MOVNTDQA? because I thought it's some chat abbreviation and when pasting to google I hoped for Ubran Dictionary article but nope ) < 1630804064 828913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's an x86_64 instruction, most of the newer ones have really weird names < 1630804092 139957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: the "Intel 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer's Manual" which you can download from somewhere on intel.com, < 1630804093 449622 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to the extent that you can often figure out how new an instruction is by counting how many letters are in its name and how unpronounceable it is < 1630804098 319405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: as well as the equivalent AMD manual < 1630804108 299453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally use the AMD manual but I have both < 1630804109 564629 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would make a universal definition lookup IRC bot command that would try to ask other channel bots and then if failed go to online dictionaries but this one is an example that I won't know where to lookup at < 1630804122 761351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to use the AMD manual, but now prefer the Intel < 1630804134 294261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: we could add the instructions to our whatisdb I guess < 1630804173 255113 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how large is whatisdb? where is it? < 1630804175 713372 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem here is that it's a proper noun – the name of an instruction – which makes it hard to look up unless you know where it comes from < 1630804177 960465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"figure out how new an instruction is" => lol < 1630804191 286384 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`whatis grep < 1630804193 405835 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :grep(1) - print lines that match patterns \ grep(1p) - search a file for a pattern < 1630804203 906629 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`whatis wisdom < 1630804207 605920 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wisdom(1hackeso) - print random wisdom matching a string \ wisdom(5hackeso) - no description < 1630804218 200972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` wc /hackenv/share/whatis # nakilon: < 1630804219 942196 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​ 14662 97242 753236 /hackenv/share/whatis < 1630804316 142200 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :holy shit, 14k definitions? < 1630804325 631704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: a lot of that is stub entries < 1630804328 152033 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like some little country language < 1630804334 824753 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ok < 1630804342 401727 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last time I downloaded the instruction list, the newest instructions were along the lines of VFNMSUB231PS < 1630804359 855576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are of course counterexamples like ADCX and ANDN and CMPXCHG8B < 1630804386 271039 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're onto the AVX-512 era now, rather than the FMA wars era, but I still don't use AVX-512 because few people have a processor that handles it < 1630804390 870215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think those are just the highly advertised ones, the ones you need for matrix product benchmarks and occasionally for actual matrix products < 1630804419 255584 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well it does solve an actual problem that's hard to solve without processor help < 1630804446 866899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and CVTTPS2DQ which is from SSE2 but looks newer < 1630804448 137636 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it introduces yet more floating point inconsistency between processors, because you have an instruction for an accurate floating-point a * b + c < 1630804452 432285 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol https://i.imgur.com/rc9wr9F.png < 1630804470 182437 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, you need a pretty new FPU to use it < 1630804481 199666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CMPXCHG8B is from pentium < 1630804486 509187 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, do you use the instruction, in the knowledge that older processors won't be able to do the same thing and thus will produce a different result? < 1630804513 909073 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CMPXCHG8B is still only four words, though < 1630804541 420795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, because it only comes up in code that will give different results depending on how the optimizer chooses to optimize it, and to some extent even to how the low-level numeric library chooses to optimize it < 1630804548 29516 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas, say, VPCLMULQDQ is an abbreviation of an eight-word prhase < 1630804548 557443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, s/only/mostly/ < 1630804587 199012 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(great instruction, though, I actually spent some time trying to find it recently because I needed it and it would have been a pain to implement without processor support) < 1630804666 67412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait... VPCLMULQDQ? is that a real instruction? how new is it? < 1630804703 147154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, here it is, PCLMULQDQ < 1630804706 366634 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX (the original PCLMULQDQ was in a little feature set all of its own) < 1630804706 433819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it can't be that new < 1630804709 250777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630804723 51768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, this one I'm fine with not remembering the mnemonic < 1630804737 455852 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the https://stackexchange.com/search?q=what+is+MOVNTDQA is a little bit helpful but still no direct link to the definition < 1630804742 776273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or anything specific about the instruction besides knowing there were a few carry-less multiply instructions < 1630804756 63417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, that can be useful < 1630804790 365210 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and 0 results for "what is VPCLMULQDQ") < 1630804797 940946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unlike the non-temporal loads, which I should have remembered (even if I don't know the mnemonic by heart) < 1630804835 256789 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think there's only one carry-less multiply instruction (two if you count the V- version differently, but the only difference is top-half-unchanged versus zero-extension) < 1630804844 105286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: carry-less multiply, like you need for polynomials over GF(2) < 1630804875 197401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is possible, though isn't there one for a specific GF(2^n) representation too? < 1630804883 219737 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like stackexchange failed to index own entry: https://i.imgur.com/ulTX078.png < 1630804896 351252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep: CRC2 < 1630804900 345471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1630804902 6528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CRC32 < 1630804952 714138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and apparently the AES instructions < 1630804980 282864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you're probably right that PCLMULQDQ is the most general < 1630805002 807909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, there's also GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805016 75894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you ask for eight words? < 1630805036 755258 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, stackexcahnge search can't automatically ignore the "what is" < 1630805038 949418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and GF2P8MULB < 1630805039 810221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow < 1630805048 349778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many instructions < 1630805141 245827 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never heard of GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805144 467732 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where does that one come from? < 1630805156 61731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same intel manual < 1630805165 765822 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, which instruciton set? < 1630805170 177424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me check < 1630805173 259189 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the universal searcher should have a huge list of dictionaries and automatically understand that "VPCLMULQDQ" should be searched in some "dictionary about CPUs" < 1630805207 722459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"CPUID feature falg: GFNI"... I don't know then < 1630805211 145573 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it must be very new, my Intel manual from 2016 doesn't list any instructions starting with G < 1630805224 244893 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a bit surprising, really < 1630805243 64812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also a third one that starts with GF2P8 < 1630805275 226863 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: Wikipedia's search box seems to do a pretty good job of recognising CPU instructions < 1630805280 609677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's not surprising, most new instructions like VGATHERDPD go under V < 1630805282 298245 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :while it can be understood from the 3-gram "MUL" that it's about CPU the GF2P8AFFINEINVQB is really a mess < 1630805291 612351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are several instructions under VG < 1630805294 405092 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it can't find GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630805311 768419 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Intel have moved on from V, they're onto E now I think < 1630805330 547627 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, maybe not < 1630805333 702543 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 indeed < 1630805334 651924 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they still start with V? < 1630805372 787300 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :including I haven't heard of this starting with E thing, but I admit I'm not following all the new instructions with a short lag < 1630805387 438714 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, GF2P8 means "GF(2⁸)" < 1630805405 494277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, I'm not familiar with all the AVX512 instructions < 1630805410 448288 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think starting with E is actually the encoding summaries rather than the instruction names, thinking about it < 1630805425 812922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, a particular representation of GF(2**8) < 1630805535 474141 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :appears to be the representation that chooses α such that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 < 1630805550 119416 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and stores field elements as the coefficient of a polynomial in α < 1630805553 984283 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that the usual one? I have a list somewhere < 1630805557 856326 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no idea < 1630805565 773054 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know if it's the IOCCC one < 1630805582 207163 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is I can't remember where < 1630805587 43600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it's in an intel instruction so it can't be a terribly unusual representation < 1630805601 446703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably they wouldn't add something that nobody would use < 1630805619 49571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CRC32 and AES certainly use existing ones < 1630805647 123600 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :found it < 1630805650 173761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean those instructions implement crypto primitives that were used already before they got x86 instructions < 1630805664 307717 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[2,8,[1,0,1,1,1,0,0,0,1]], < 1630805682 721927 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately I also can't remember what format this file is in, but that doesn't look like α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 < 1630805769 393006 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there is such a list, it might be somewhere in https://www.jjj.de/fxt/ < 1630805775 41144 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like that's ordered with the α⁰ coefficient at the start, and α⁸ a the end, so it's α⁸+α⁴+α³+α²+1=0, not quite the same < 1630805791 542881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.math.rwth-aachen.de/~Frank.Luebeck/data/ConwayPol/index.html < 1630805804 223090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(luckily I'd recorded the place I got the file from next to the file itself) < 1630805962 61773 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow the definition of "smallest polynomial" here is weird, it looks for the highest coefficient that differs, then decides which is larger or smaller based on the value of that coefficient xor whether the difference between its exponent and the polynomial's degree is odd or even < 1630805980 861624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume there's a reason for that, because I can't imagine this would be a standard definition for no reason < 1630806059 942563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/all-primpoly.txt lists all polynomials used to compute GF(2**n) for n<=11 < 1630806113 131447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one you mention α⁸+α⁴+α³+α²+1 is apparently the first in the order used in that list < 1630806143 646287 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0, mentioned on the website you linked, doesn't give a finite field < 1630806143 769397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that page is linked from https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/ < 1630806154 981380 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so probably there's a typo on either the website, or in the intel documentation it draws its information form < 1630806163 431264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... < 1630806180 694608 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, it's 8,4,3,2,0 < 1630806211 925935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 is only in the intel manual < 1630806253 526879 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sorry, by "the website you linked" I meant the older link < 1630806270 194238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what odler link? < 1630806271 193453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to the Intel instruction, not to the finite field polynomials < 1630806281 873153 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you didn't < 1630806282 402152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I linked to a website with the intel instruction? < 1630806284 577416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ok < 1630806289 3201 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found it by a web search and assumed you'd linked it to me < 1630806313 492090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/gf2p8mulb < 1630806319 671106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh... < 1630806329 262470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assumed you'd just download a later intel or amd manual for it < 1630806332 287057 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could possibly be a PDF extraction error? < 1630806343 100645 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't want to have to keep downloading manuals for this < 1630806346 722225 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have two of them already < 1630806355 266646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's the intel manual that says x**8+x**4+x**3+x+1 < 1630806355 900604 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly the bandwidth doesn't cost much nowadays < 1630806362 803669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um... < 1630806368 883726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I have two of them already" ... but < 1630806373 873949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if they're obsolete < 1630806446 182243 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming the old instructions don't change very much < 1630806463 694058 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so an old manual will still be good for anything other than newly invented instructions < 1630806482 253386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://xkcd.com/345/ "Hush, I'm coding. You ate yesterday." < 1630806494 539518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't need to buy food, I already bought food twice < 1630806505 515456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, the old instructions rarely change, < 1630806526 81713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if the newly invented one for the GF(2**8) interests you < 1630806552 653624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess < 1630806553 640869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the intel manual says the polynomial is "x**8 + x**4 + x**3 + x + 1" (the powers set with superscripts) < 1630806569 479335 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's wrong, surely, that wasn't on the list of valid polynomials you linked < 1630806619 380649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's odd < 1630806659 384304 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :speaking about figuring out which dictionaries to look up, I guess [tags] here do the job https://i.imgur.com/FfAxjZC.png < 1630806674 217801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a recent AMD manual < 1630806704 30159 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but hm, only 12 results and tags don't intersect much so it would need to prebuild some tag topic clouds < 1630806707 778377 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, Intel now has a combined PDF that does all the instructions in one PDF, that's a good enough reason to download a new one < 1630806746 472293 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :three results for G... https://stackexchange.com/search?q=GF2P8AFFINEINVQB < 1630806770 956030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it has all in one PDF. it still has the separate volumes for printing, but who prints a full Intel manual? < 1630806783 175038 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's weird that not all search results display tqgs < 1630806793 209727 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it was split last time I looked < 1630806796 702016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's been five years < 1630806826 544374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it exists as split pdfs too. and you still need to download the optimization manual in two separate pdfs (one general and one specific for your microarchitecture) besides the combined volume, and sometimes there's a supplement for planned future instructions < 1630806835 650468 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, it still has separate chapters for A-L, M-U, V-Z < 1630806851 934264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it's literally "combined volumes" as in all "printed" volumes in one PDF < 1630806860 390376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the covers changed, but not much else < 1630806869 765624 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for optimization, I normally look at Agner Fog's manuals rather than the official ones, they're generally more accurate and also make it easier to work out what would run well on multiple architectures < 1630806883 836763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, but I want to have both < 1630806906 746320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean ideally I should have up to date AMD manuals too, but I don't < 1630806918 586740 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have rather old ones) < 1630806980 32564 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tend to treat AMD's as the "official" ones as they invented x86_64 < 1630807000 841610 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, in practice, whatever Intel does tends to become standard because they have such market dominance < 1630807052 728832 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so two of 3 search results have the tag "assembly" and the top google result is the page with a nice list of them https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/ < 1630807083 836171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think they're both official only for the CPUs that they each sell, but in practice those are very close and have almost no incompatibilities so you can use the other manual < 1630807110 213216 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs : there are two things you can do with a pointer: a) pointer arithmetic operations like offset, compare, etc.; and b) dereferencing it to get at the value you're pointing to – Of course, the latter is very much not specific to pointers. < 1630807165 604333 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Melvar: definitely; the problem is that many systems programming languages don't have anything efficient that does just b), if you want b) from a primitive then you get a) too < 1630807173 796192 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which rather hinders optimisation opportunities < 1630807258 21788 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also the support for “peek but no poke” is limited apparently? < 1630807345 19598 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :truly read-only pointers are rare, although most languages have something comparable but with weird edge cases < 1630807355 162870 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the language level, that is < 1630807366 981139 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's quite easy to get modern CPUs to not let a program write to particular areas of memory at all < 1630807502 253782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow rubygems have webhooks https://guides.rubygems.org/rubygems-org-api/#webhook-methods so I can make a \rasel remote executor to redeploy the function if I update the gem; that's not something to do often (or even ever) but it also makes me thinj of using github webhooks in a similar way to automatically update the IRC bot handlers < 1630807559 133727 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course it can also pull the master HEAD every time but it would make the command work one second longer and the handler will break if something happens to the repo < 1630807564 279641 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O (Haskell has three different representations that correspond to pointers) < 1630807600 753095 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though the "something happends to the repo" isn't much more possible thing to happen than to "happen with the GCP Functions" since the github repo isn't billed < 1630807636 800542 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Well, GHC.) < 1630808497 514591 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen > 1630809479 670776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:OISC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87921&oldid=86793 5* 03VitalMixofNutrients 5* (+2804) 10I want to dispute the claim that FlipJump is the simplest OISC, by proving that Bit-Bit-Jump is actually the simplest and can evaluate conditional statements unlike FlipJump. < 1630810005 351130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a few days ago I dreamed that I was joined on an IRC channel, and since waking, I'm wondering if that was trying to reference a specific real channel that I once joined, presumably on freenode, or if it was completely invented < 1630810076 427305 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what was the Nitter analogue for Instagram? < 1630810234 234978 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"simplest OISC" seems like an interesting argument to get into < 1630810321 579425 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, the argument on that page doesn't seem to help much > 1630810445 540342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ID machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87922 5* 03B jonas 5* (+25) 10redirect because that's where I looked and the search results didn't help < 1630810446 468657 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630810486 502068 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OISC systems have to have some essential complexity somewhere. If it's squeezed out of the instruction count, then it'll show up again in the instruction definition. < 1630810650 710567 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the discussion didn't mention TCness, so I guess an OISC with a nop instruction is the simplest < 1630810655 407375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does 1.1 count as a OISC? < 1630810686 700810 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty much anything can be interpreted as an OISC if you try hard enough < 1630810702 910591 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure it's something that can be objectively defined < 1630810712 739808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, does slashes or Thue count as an OISC? < 1630810743 924546 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model is arguably a ZISC (I actually found the ZISC formulation first, and it wasn't until I discovered the language a second time that I realised how easy it was to implement) < 1630810747 739794 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that OISC and ZISC are perspectives. < 1630810759 260571 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's a good way to put it < 1630810779 275646 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I want sandwich ( < 1630810780 797202 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I do have the (possibly incorrect) view that an OISC/ZISC has to be imperative < 1630810824 874361 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the nondeterministic-as-in-declarative version of Thue, therefore, probably isn't (I still think this is the intended definition, as opposed to "replace a random substring") < 1630810830 335938 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's fine for a ZISC machine to have computable (say, poly-time) small-step behavior, but be Turing-complete under iteration. That's how I think of The Waterfall Model, at least. < 1630810847 181999 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630810847 522793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are languages where I don't even know how to count how many instructions they have < 1630810859 69845 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually it's very common for TC languages to have simple small-step behaviour < 1630810905 402632 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there languages without instructions? < 1630810911 871335 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, any 2-instruction no-argument language (e.g. Brainpocalypse or the I/D machine) can be made into an OISC by run-length encoding it < 1630810922 539477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that depends on your point of view < 1630810929 889590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: would you count a one-combinator basis of combinatorial calculus an OISC? and is it imperative? < 1630810965 70402 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: only if it somehow worked without a precedence override, which is probably impossible (if you want to stay TC) < 1630810974 725776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't that only if at most one of the two instructions have operand fields? < 1630810993 993952 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I guess, if you want to let the combined instruction take multiple arguments < 1630811011 343885 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 people build everything with blocks, write music with notes, even that esolang where you put things on the table has things as instructions < 1630811027 638274 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if there is anything that can't be broken into discrete parts < 1630811045 124525 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I have been looking for a language like that but failed to find one < 1630811058 574520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what counts as instructions in Consumer society, even though it is imperative and programs have a source code < 1630811066 490935 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But Is It Art? is a good counterexample to a lot of statements about languages, it arguably doesn't have instructions < 1630811095 963457 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the Post correspondence problem, that's like a 1D version of BIIA? < 1630811106 339933 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[wiki But Is It Art?] [wiki Consumer society] < 1630811107 731277 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, they both still have composability in a sense < 1630811112 873940 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :thread error < 1630811117 638547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art? < 1630811125 237126 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if Consumer Society has one < 1630811126 648800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Conway's Game of Life have instructions? < 1630811131 499112 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_ArtF < 1630811134 357181 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%F < 1630811149 347854 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gah, what is up with the escaping here < 1630811151 292266 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%%F < 1630811154 544040 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Consumer Society doesn't have a wiki page because I haven't published its definition yet and I didn't want to create a completely useless stub < 1630811156 757450 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F < 1630811160 262947 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[wiki But Is It Art?] < 1630811161 350559 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/But%20Is%20It%20Art%3F < 1630811168 791224 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there we go < 1630811181 75928 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk why it timed out on the first try < 1630811181 967186 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I needed to type two percent signs and two 3s for some reason < 1630811190 494762 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :either google or wiki were cold I guess < 1630811190 645551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`addquote Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630811194 721892 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1334) Yeah. Turing-completeness is like an overly-full grilled sandwich; it doesn't matter whether it's panini or cubano, it is going to leak. < 1630811269 280448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does C have instructions? < 1630811291 387796 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has statements, those are a decent analogue for instructions < 1630811297 497572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or Algol might be a better question < 1630811320 653119 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, if statements matter then how about just lambda calculus? < 1630811320 791855 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like Diophantine equations are a good example of something that doesn't clearly have separate statements < 1630811350 779670 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think the best way to think about lambda calculus imperatively is that apply is the statement < 1630811356 153461 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or the instruction < 1630811368 115114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :might be < 1630811376 448133 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh https://esolangs.org/wiki/Matrioshka_language -- the "matrIOshka" is a word with Ё < 1630811386 480623 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is very clear in unlambda, the only thing that actually does anything is the backquote < 1630811421 851441 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I think "matrioshka" is an English word which was borrowed from Russian, but often those words change in the borrowing < 1630811456 344046 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had matrioshka < 1630811466 118542 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was like 5 < 1630811493 740096 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. "babushka" is an English word by now but the vowels are all different compared to the Russian original < 1630811504 330990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a small matrioshka < 1630811516 81185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I certainly didn't have one when I was 5 < 1630811533 403535 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the English version of the pronunciation is inherently funny to say which is why it caught on, but would be annoying to use on a regular basis) < 1630811622 343913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary says it's pronounced bəˈbuːʃ.kə in English, the Russian version is ˈbabʊʂkə which is quite different < 1630811658 807192 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English is really weird sometimes < 1630811661 919272 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I heard that the accent is in different place < 1630811713 690446 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :My favorite example of English inability to pronounce things right is French "marche" vs. English "mush". < 1630811725 43281 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :By the way, the Russian system of indicating the stressed syllable with a mark *over* the vowel rather than next to it is so much better. < 1630811725 346507 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Words often change in borrowing between different language < 1630811813 985876 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes even in borrowing within the same language. < 1630811875 602864 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, even same language too sometimes < 1630812021 813128 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC there are some cases where English borrowed the same word twice, with two different meanings, but can't think of any offhand < 1630812096 225375 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in modern Russian the lack of a culture of education (in Soviet time it was cool to know things, read a lot, etc.) and internet with all its memes and hypes makes young people often learn anglicisms instead of using the Russian word that always existed but teachers didn't bother to teach kid it < 1630812125 443460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure if "proof" vs "probe" counts < 1630812134 283658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for what you're looking for < 1630812171 589920 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, that's interesting, "prove" once used to mean "test" (i.e. an effective synonym of "probe") but the meaning changed over time < 1630812190 688114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: that's also the Greek and Spanish system, but unlike the russians those actually use it < 1630812190 944176 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe we borrowed it twice, with the same meaning, but the meaning diverged in between? < 1630812214 375558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think it's actually borrowed as "proof" and "probe", and "prove" was derived from "proof" in English, but I'm not sure < 1630812252 939542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for meaning change, that's why "proof of the pudding" makes no sense < 1630812276 235135 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like "prove" in French was the borrowed word < 1630812303 667244 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for "prove"/"proof" < 1630812308 120707 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, people installing and using software with a messaging functionality and lacking the Russian localisation learn the word "message" and don't use the word "сообщение" < 1630812313 957964 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas "probe" was the same word but borrowed from Latin < 1630812322 585028 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they say месседж or мэсседж < 1630812403 604251 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in 5 or 6 years time, probably the loanword will be a real word with the meaning of "a message sent over the Internet in particular", the way these things normally go < 1630812437 837006 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "governor" and "cybernetics" are two borrowings of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%85%CE%B2%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82#Ancient_Greek < 1630812438 784316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't that "email"? < 1630812446 713943 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You may recognize a third recent borrowing, "kubernetes" < 1630812454 628794 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Email is not the only message send over internet < 1630812459 231284 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "email" is more specific < 1630812547 906522 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: i suspect internet slang is a mess of borrowings in all languages other than english, not just russian. < 1630812548 395260 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: that's amazing, that there's such a difference in meaning < 1630812565 262434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and english is a mess too) < 1630812566 89501 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: in English, too < 1630812584 972556 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. "kek" is a borrowing from an invented language made for World of Warcraft… < 1630812593 766986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? are you sure? < 1630812625 226311 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: is that directed at me? yes, this one's pretty well documented < 1630812626 982698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought "kek" was an alternate spelling for an onomatopoeia that may or may not have been borrowed form jaapenese < 1630812633 46331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, about "kek" < 1630812652 871126 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "lol" passed through a character filter designed to prevent the players of the two opposing factions understanding each other < 1630812661 897968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, apparently from korean < 1630812671 553484 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes just as much sense as most Internet slang… < 1630812689 698147 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, this is disputed, the Korean borrowing is also mentioned < 1630812727 446653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it's an obvious onomatopoeia, it can appear in multiple languages and be impossible to figure out where it's copied from < 1630812733 605883 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan I won't mind it if internet messaging was something very new thing but those were "сообщения" for many years, until the internet got to the youngest people who lack the vocabulary < 1630812765 750465 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary (which is not a reliable source for this sort of dispute) says that the World of Warcraft thing was *intentionally* added by Blizzard to perpetuate a Korean Starcraft meme, which i think is more or less impossible < 1630812775 1813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, in general I don't understand how linguists can so often give such certain statements about etimology when there's more than one possibility. < 1630812821 240758 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes the statements aren't so certain < 1630812822 839719 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, this may be a weird case in which the supposed etymology is the reason the word is used, even if it isn't correct… < 1630812867 37541 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahah, it says in French it's Французский Кек — Queque < 1630812872 357931 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"quiz" is a good one; there's a widespread belief that the word was invented for a bet, but apparently there's no evidence about this < 1630812906 326903 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Until relatively recently, words had to arise in geographic locations. We know e.g. where "marche" became "mush" because we know where French and English occupied territory during the start of dog-sledding in North America. (And TBH I think that "like, Alaska" is the best answer we currently have?) < 1630812923 530701 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, Russian for France is almost identical to the English (and of course to the French), but the spelling is so different it's hard to recognise < 1630813084 809965 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking up "the proof of the pudding", apparently it's mutated into "the proof is in the pudding" in some areas < 1630813092 284243 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes even less sense < 1630813098 584442 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :russian article http://wikireality.ru/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B5%D0%BA says kekeke originated in starcraft as an automated transliteration from horean hehehe but I agree it's not clear that kek is the same as kekeke < 1630813136 737744 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*korean < 1630813138 603032 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :_<> < 1630813172 276138 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the debate is primarily about which Blizzard-created automatic character filter is responsible? < 1630813191 58669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630813291 669790 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, "pwn" is another good one, especially as it likely had no defined pronunciation for a while < 1630813468 878597 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Does Russian not use it? < 1630813476 319626 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's one that appeared in written chat like "glod" and "teh urn" < 1630813488 174450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those have obvious pronunciations < 1630813489 920667 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or do you mean that Greek or Spanish use it all the time, and not just when indicating how to pronounce a word? I haven't seen that. < 1630813492 95976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: only in dictionaries and language textbooks for learners afaiu < 1630813499 718341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630813505 179843 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :use what? < 1630813520 802584 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ´ above a vowel to indicate stress < 1630813525 655929 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1630813526 5338 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there any language where the spelling indicates where the stress goes all the time, and not just in special cases? < 1630813529 26217 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Finnish, I suppose. < 1630813536 152157 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sort of. < 1630813567 311429 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually in books the thing is printed right above the letter < 1630813574 382182 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, neither Wiktionary nor Urban Dictionary has "teh urn", but it was definitely widespread in the speedrunning community for a while < 1630813576 180501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :greek uses it in all multisyllable words, while spanish has a default stress rule that allows leaving it out in many words, but it's mandatory for all others < 1630813576 324968 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most languages already use very redundant spelling compared to e.g. Hebrew. < 1630813583 722241 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might be more of a meme than an actual word, though < 1630813584 442113 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's just an internet thing that people have to put the ' somewhere < 1630813597 49905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: do they have "urn" and "teh" separately? < 1630813601 869892 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we don't have a functionality to put the thing directly above an arbitrary letter at least in russian layout < 1630813614 994253 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait < 1630813625 71918 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well, "urn" is a real but unrelated word, and I'd expect "teh" to be there because it's older < 1630813632 926545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know unicode doesn't have precomposed characters for russian vowels with an acute accent, < 1630813633 606417 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you mean the rules of transcription in nelgih dictionaries -- yet, it's older than internet < 1630813638 620156 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630813647 23161 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*english < 1630813648 774690 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :_OO < 1630813664 129859 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the September is cold, my fingers to typos < 1630813669 935001 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*do < 1630813677 100665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while it does have precomposed characters for vowels with acute or grave (both acute and grave are used to mark stress, but in different European languages, by the way), because all of them clearly exist in at least some language like Welsh < 1630813728 306385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, urban dictionary has "urn" in an entirely different sense < 1630813738 787869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a sense I never heard of < 1630813747 839589 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowyourmeme doesn't have "teh urn" either (although it appears in one of the references) < 1630813756 367102 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that doesn't surprise me, lots of slang is regional < 1630813756 854884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fun < 1630813776 222483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, not the part where I don't know the slang < 1630813786 860722 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know most of the entires in urbandictionary < 1630813805 476299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just that there is a third sense that happens to collide with that existing word < 1630813815 939445 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with apparently three different etimologies < 1630813835 216670 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Язы́к программи́рования" -- here is copypasta from wikipedia; in the article the tick is right above the letter but while I'm typing this message I see it's after the letter < 1630813836 33766 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "teh urn" is probably best considered to be a Twitch meme, which was fairly long-running for Twitch memes but short-lived in terms of the language generally < 1630813850 496853 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, when I've pressed Enter it's now rendering above the letter again < 1630813856 976375 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: the russian and greek ´ are unicode modifier characters (not sure if they're the same character), so you _can_ put it anywhere in unicode as long as you have a way of typing it < 1630813890 805433 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :text entry boxes often treat combining characters in dubious ways < 1630813895 394074 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630813905 35999 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if there is a non-dubious way to treat them for editing purposes (as opposed to display purposes) < 1630813914 97969 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I'm editing this copypasta in the text input I can't select it and move elsewhere, it's like bound to the vowel already < 1630813930 695609 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :As far as I know, mostly it is the Romantic languages that have acute and grave accents, and other languages work differently. Is that right? < 1630814044 322733 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630814088 26205 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think that mostly depends on where the language got its alphabet from < 1630814092 123307 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: btw italian uses _both_ acute and grave to mark stress on the last syllable (and in some dictionaries, elsewhere) with a close/open distinction of pronunciation when the vowel is e (or o, except then it's always ò at the end), but only there unless it's in a dictionary. < 1630814137 921526 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in theory, a language could have multiple different writing systems, but that doesn't seem to happen that often in practice < 1630814207 283140 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, consensus is just the best. How come hardly anyone's into it? < 1630814228 233615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it does happen, just usually not simultaneously. serbian might be the only one that can keep two for decades. < 1630814237 249302 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no < 1630814244 576521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously Norwegian will keep them longer < 1630814246 577355 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, other languages even with Latin alphabets work differently as far as I know, at least Germanic languages that use Latin alphabets, as far as I have seen they are differently, but I don't really know all of these thing if it is. I know that English writing does not normally use the accent marks, at least. < 1630814279 270654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are much more that had different writing systems with different scripts at different times < 1630814280 208223 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :technology seems to drive elimination of letters from English < 1630814289 614923 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :þ started dying out when printing came about < 1630814310 825479 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it was typewriters and then computers that have mostly driven out the diaresis < 1630814332 891431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, as for the diarrhea, I wanted to ask < 1630814344 257099 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what < 1630814347 658662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you spell Bo-otes the constellation in English ais523 < 1630814352 92658 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm just about old enough to remember the time when diareses were seen frequently enough to not look odd) < 1630814368 287209 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know the constellation in question < 1630814379 82910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` \? diarrhea # nakilon < 1630814380 993843 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave. < 1630814390 213563 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that one; it's spelled "bootes" and you're just supposed to know that it's boötes. < 1630814421 693155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia suggests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo%C3%B6tes < 1630814435 466869 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's using the diaresis for its intended purpose < 1630814464 924146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, so I was wondering if you use the diar... trema there < 1630814491 646677 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use the diaresis everywhere I can get away with it, which is very few places < 1630814500 846850 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, few people know it exists < 1630814514 657252 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot can change in a few decades < 1630814527 567809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the context is https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2021-05.html#lqp < 1630814557 174154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but isn't it one of those things that you can still use if most people don't know it because they can pick it up by example? < 1630814572 396921 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I have heard that a thorn is not used in English due to printing, but I think some languages still use < 1630814580 792016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a difference between what's understandable and what's socially acceptable < 1630814604 76597 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people will laugh at you for writing "coöperative", even though it's normal-ish in old books < 1630814636 801042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: nynorsk vs. bokmål aren't just about spelling, there are also different word choices at least traditionally. and even phrasing: nynorsk frowns more upon using convoluted syntax with verbs being nouned (but _both_ frown upon it compared to german or even english) < 1630814640 73511 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary calls it a "rare spelling" < 1630814690 707080 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20120204065251/http://people.ku.edu/~nkinners/LangList/Extras/famous.htm < 1630814698 12955 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: ok. and it's not clear if serbian is a good example, or if in the future we'll just see it as a short period when two systems coexisted < 1630814728 407396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I do hope it's the serbian latin that dies out by the way) < 1630814748 937647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but one of them will die out for sure) < 1630814805 593900 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: apparently they've survived in parallel since 1830 < 1630814814 238599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? really that old? < 1630814818 492996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought it was much newer < 1630814818 710100 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is longer than I expected < 1630814852 87124 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this may end up in a situation like Japanese, where hiragana and katakana are used for different purposes (katakana's almost like italics) < 1630814871 443426 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but have a 1-to-1 correspondence < 1630814943 355620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really see how it could end up that way < 1630814970 274765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well maybe < 1630815000 570212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can more easily imagine them being used in different kinds of text, but not generally mixed in one book < 1630815029 560012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the problem is < 1630815061 150811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both latin and cyrillic already has lower case, upper case, and italic forms, so you don't need an extra doubling to use different letters for different occasions < 1630815239 268138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have three cases, but six is entirely too many < 1630815342 354780 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/cases/genders/ * runs hastily away from both woke and bantu people < 1630815424 4307 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankalk%C3%BCl < 1630815431 135739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so didn't serbian cyrillic only get popular in the 1980s or 1990s, even if it was invented earlier? < 1630815434 972295 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : > While working on his doctoral dissertation, Zuse developed the first known formal system of algorithm notation[7] capable of handling branches and loops.[8][9] In 1942 he began writing a chess program in Plankalkül < 1630815441 879633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry sorry < 1630815443 455033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean < 1630815446 926224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so didn't serbian latin only get popular in the 1980s or 1990s, even if it was invented earlier? < 1630815467 310917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :serbian cyrillic was popular before that obviously < 1630815488 495097 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :dude didn't even yet have a programming language but started coding chess -- how monay today's "programmers" would try to code chess at least once in their life? < 1630815499 217005 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*how many < 1630815537 793702 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: for a time until about 1990 a lot of people tried hard to claim serbian and croatian were the same language hth < 1630815649 378098 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(based on politics and the silly argument that there was hardly any difference to speak of) < 1630815679 515960 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(then the politics changed and they quickly started making sure there _was_ a difference) < 1630815714 851454 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but i think they're still closer than say bokmål and nynorsk?) < 1630815732 861246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: yep < 1630815758 411696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe serbian latin was popular before the 50s, that's just too old for me to have noticed? < 1630815772 854972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see books that old often < 1630815789 730793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, you know, posts on the internet that old < 1630815798 603564 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Icelandic still has thorn < 1630815807 900033 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :shocking < 1630815849 844107 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Icelandic's use of þ is the reason it has a default keybinding on this layout < 1630815857 806271 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and eth (ð) which is like the voiced version i think < 1630815938 883480 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :voiced th bothers me so much, because my brain tries hard to refuse to hear it as distinct from the unvoiced version < 1630815942 650208 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: istr ada lovelace similarly coded tic-tac-toe < 1630815966 510223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a bit easier < 1630815971 915237 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it took me a while to figure out whether the "th" in "thorn" is voiced or unvoiced, I had to say it over and over again and compare with reference words < 1630815976 894369 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the sounds aren't even that close < 1630816014 467231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so IOCCC had a chess engine before 2005/toledo: 1992/vern. I thought it only had toledo's chess engine, his X11 chess program, and suicide chess. < 1630816022 818505 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been wondering if there's a way to spell either of the sounds to make their pronuncuation unambiguous to a typical English speaker < 1630816032 151449 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan funny but it's just exactly 1-2 days ago that I during having fun on lichess started thinking about making chess and then switched to idea to start with tic-tac-toe to avoid spending time on coding the rules -- this is why yesterday I threw some links about Gomoku < 1630816051 371518 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess "vh" for voiced "th" isn't massively far off < 1630816061 41479 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because the tic-tac-toe would be too fast to calculate fully) < 1630816061 452824 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "fh" for unvoiced? < 1630816089 70363 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it helps that "v" is the voiced version of "f" < 1630816115 585639 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(oerjan-style thought bubble: does that mean that the opposite of "voiced" should be "foiced"?) < 1630816131 29026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, so that's how you're supposed to pronounce fhtagn? < 1630816144 373195 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even "foist", I guess < 1630816156 926463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : voiced th bothers me so much, because my brain tries hard to refuse to hear it as distinct from the unvoiced version <-- huh are there no minimal pairs in english? i don't know a rule to know which one is correct where < 1630816162 389563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also I wanted to ask you guys if there is something between Tic-tac-toe and Nim that would be easy to implement the rules machine and yet hard to calculate, but then I discovered the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M,n,k-game that allows me to just take different n,m,k < 1630816180 972774 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: "the"/"this" is not a pair but make for good reference words < 1630816192 576185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now you just have to explain all the other consonant combinations that appear at the start of a word only in incantations to summon Cthulhu < 1630816207 852863 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess "this" (voiced) / "thistle" (unvoiced) have a paired syllable < 1630816231 864719 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: on the other hand as a norwegian i have similar problems with voiced and unvoiced s (the latter doesn't exist in norwegian, which has no voiced sibilants) < 1630816232 81080 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the second "t" in "thistle" is silent, fortunately, or it wouldn't work) < 1630816294 860281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know a rule for which th to use either, but I assume one exists, because I've never had trouble pronouncing an unknown English word with a th in it < 1630816320 649938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it seems to me that dh would be a reasonable spelling of the voiced version < 1630816335 495326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I've implemented the Gomoku in around 2007 in C++Builder -- it was thinking for few seconds and wasn't easy to beat, at least for me; the whole 3 (or 4?) deep loop was hardcoded with no recursion < 1630816343 244567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what? there's no way the "t" is always silent. isn't it's just one of those "t"s that are sometimes silent, like the one in "often"? < 1630816344 931751 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that dh is a real digraph which has its own pronunciation < 1630816371 74357 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wiktionary says always silent < 1630816380 143439 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe earlier than 2007 because it feels like I didn't have internet yet to know for sure how ti should be done < 1630816387 166138 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and pronouncing it would be really weird, it'd end up rhyming with "pistol" < 1630816418 617899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so does my Longman. funny. < 1630816425 291065 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in "often" the 't' is sometimes pronounced but it's rare < 1630816436 986000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( it's not oerjan-style without the prefix hth ) < 1630816478 967047 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_%E2%9F%A8th%E2%9F%A9 seems useful < 1630816510 880413 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol I remember how in school every teacher of English was reteaching us the pronounciation < 1630816516 798772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: um "the"/"this" are both voiced unless i am far more gravely mistaken about them than i thought < 1630816516 908762 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they all said "your previous teacher is dumb" < 1630816550 111437 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I was about to say that < 1630816557 598806 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I /just/ realised that "the" is voiced < 1630816565 682417 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though I was sure it was unvoiced earlier < 1630816574 789465 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came here to say that, and then noticed your ping < 1630816586 351071 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is how hard it is for an English speaker to tell them apart < 1630816597 969413 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"this"/"thistle" helped, though < 1630816611 43217 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were officially taught british english and when there was a teacher of english literature that "lived in USA for several years" we could not understand her at all < 1630816668 259923 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One thing that I do think can be good to continue using thorn letter in English is when you want to abbreviate "Thursday" as one letter, so that is difference from "Tuesday". And then, write "L" for "Lyeday" (as another name for Saturday); I have seen suggestion Lyeday for Saturday too (and it look like it is another name for that day in Proto-Germanic), and I like this because it is not "S" like "Sunday") < 1630816670 391992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1630816677 919140 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American English and British English are mutually intelligible but the differences are actually quite large < 1630816707 995124 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had also heard someone who speak English could understand well enough in most countries (even those who are not English) except in England < 1630816715 188755 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I could see how it would be difficult as a second language < 1630816774 766879 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean like those youtube videos of "speaking with scottish accent" or something -- the same much inunderstandable < 1630816788 106789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: shouldn't we just abbreviate them as the alchemical symbols for the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Sun? < 1630816793 715208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the days of the week that is < 1630816795 883606 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, here we go, the rules for telling the "th"s apart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_%E2%9F%A8th%E2%9F%A9#Phonology_and_distribution < 1630816808 276756 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :she was dictating things and we were just pretending we understand, but mostly asked each other "what did she just say?" ..D < 1630816817 843497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, W-5, W-6, W-7 if you prefer < 1630816830 580385 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: a sufficiently strong accent can be hard to understand even for native speakers < 1630816881 22781 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, abbreviating them as the the symbols for the planets is another way, maybe is better < 1630816900 712961 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, I love the way that Wikipedia points out that "lighthouse" is an exception, the t and h are in different syllables < 1630816934 87496 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember how I asked: "road or wrote?" and in Russian it actually sounds like "в рот" meaning "into a mouth" -- the class went laughing and she asked me to leave and after that or another lesson she just refused to do lessons with me, lol < 1630816956 816438 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember how I was rated in the end of the year < 1630817013 543825 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably now I could understand from the context if it's road or wrote but not when you are 16 or so < 1630817141 156801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: write/right/rite/wright is one of the worse homophones in English < 1630817151 347523 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"cloth"/"clothe" aren't a pair because the vowel is different, but I can pronounce "clothe" with either th easily < 1630817173 291416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can you pronounce it with either th as either a noun or verb? < 1630817175 910940 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think in alchemy they are just used as the sign for different metals and chemical elements; in astrology/astronomy they are used to represent the planets, Sun, and Moon.) < 1630817208 113207 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the verb can only use the voiced version, if I pronounce it unvoiced it sounds like a nonexistent noun (an irregular singular of "clothes") < 1630817214 879788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yeah, astrological symbols might make more sense < 1630817222 633254 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is weird because the th in "clothes" is voiced too < 1630817250 574195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you pronounce "clothing"? < 1630817273 628703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? hth < 1630817275 905749 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. < 1630817299 919165 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: voiced < 1630817314 999586 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm getting better at telling them apart but it takes so much concentration < 1630817327 530423 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the first class we were taught to spell "can't" with "a", and in the second class we've got another teacher and she said "omg, don't say like that", you should use "e" sound otherwise it sounds bad -- only after school I've learned what word she meant < 1630817329 33470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... now I'll have to look that up in the Longman too < 1630817337 5768 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that's another pair – the second syllable of "clothing", against "thing" < 1630817356 100157 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then in movies I hear "can't" exactly like we were taught in the first class so we were not fully wrong, it was just an accent < 1630817383 47587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :longman says "clothing" is voiced too < 1630817410 871083 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently "th" in the middle of a word is nearly always voiced, and "th" at the start of a word is nearly always unvoiced – Wikipedia claims that there are exactly 14 base words whose derivatives start with voiced "th", and all other words are unvoiced < 1630817425 413707 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would explain why I rarely have much trouble getting it correct < 1630817448 681265 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"th" at the end of the word varies by both the word and by the accent of the speaker, according to Wikipedia, and when I think about it I think that's right < 1630817458 655474 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, TIL this longman thing https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/can-t what does red and blue mean? they are exactly what you meant < 1630817461 342456 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*what I < 1630817475 997840 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically, the less voiced your final ths are, the further north you live < 1630817479 885333 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're in the UK < 1630817495 488366 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630817527 854150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: no < 1630817557 299184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my longman is a printed dictionary from the same publisher (Langenscheidt-Longman) < 1630817569 155166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :called "Dictionary of Contemporary English" < 1630817588 670741 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though the definition in that page is confusing < 1630817603 828165 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :" something is impossible or unlikely" is exactly the "Sorry, I can’t help you." < 1630817618 197315 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I missed definition 2 there < 1630817627 453688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a very good dictionary in the sense that its definitions are easier to understand than the ones in Oxfords, and much easier than the ones in Websters < 1630817631 260430 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you write it as "cannot" it sounds more like an order, rather than a state of fact < 1630817682 255561 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't noticed that rule before, and was vaguely surprised that a dictionary picked up on it < 1630817701 714242 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, this seems to be a meaning that's missing from "cannot" rather than an extra meaning of "can't" < 1630817704 78972 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas can’t | meaning of can’t in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE < 1630817704 927905 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I highly recommend using Longmans as the first one-language English dictionary for foreign language learners < 1630817739 41272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ok, but this one doesn't have red and blue stuff, except the blue L on the cover, and definitely doesn't have sound recordings < 1630817761 919387 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :..D < 1630817783 382108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't know what red and blue means < 1630817788 55007 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yout typography had only black ink < 1630817837 458402 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh when you hover the mouse it says red british blue american < 1630817870 423054 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :haha, so the teacher from 2 to 9 classes was wrong < 1630817945 790792 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm trying to imagine what American English "can't" sounds like (without cheating by playing a recording) < 1630817984 876983 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, Wiktionary says /kænt/, and æ is easy, that'd basically be British English "cant" < 1630818017 859582 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : I guess the transcription on that page means the same: /kɑːnt $ kænt/ < 1630818023 85060 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just not colored < 1630818036 490821 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…it crosses my mind that I've partially learnt quite a few alphabets < 1630818075 467321 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know more than half of Cyrillic but not all of it, I struggle with many of the vowels, and also the consonants that are written as digraphs in English (I have trouble remembering which is which) < 1630818127 639966 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I know some of IPA but not all of it (that's especially hard for sounds that aren't in English, although I can normally get there by reading the Wikipedia article and following its instructions about where to put the various parts of my mouth to pronounce them) < 1630818265 739672 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder whether the "th" in words like "lighthouse" should be technically written as "tḧ"? although the diaresis is only supposed to be used on vowels, I guess now that it isn't used anywhere any more I can put it where I like < 1630818292 336694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :brilliant < 1630818294 575091 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas does your book longman have one or two transcriptions? < 1630818478 495996 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: anyway, now that I've read the rules, I can understand why þ/ð pairs are so hard to find in English – the rules pretty much eliminate them < 1630818489 601896 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahaha, another example https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/homework < 1630818503 318110 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would probably need to find a loanword with a th in the middle, that happened to otherwise be the same as a native word < 1630818520 359782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in 1st class we were taught to say hAm, and the next teacher said it's stupid, say hOm < 1630818527 937722 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oʊ? wow < 1630818530 319840 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"because otherwise it sounds like harm work" < 1630818556 665569 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American English sounds ridiculous to Brits sometimes < 1630818585 167463 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is so weird to finally know why other teachers said we've got not the best teacher during 2-9 < 1630818613 603588 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I could teach American English < 1630818618 360660 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :she was kind of right to say cEn't and hAm but not while saying that "we are learning british one" at the same time < 1630818626 770500 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the vowels are so different < 1630818709 103474 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this was all wrong to decide that "we teach this one" because in the end today I have no idea which one is which < 1630818725 866230 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it ...tize os ...tise, color or colour beughbor or neighbour, etc. < 1630818765 110643 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be nice if instead of "we learn british, that's it" we were "learning both, here remember the difference..." < 1630818771 130745 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…ise vs. …ize, nobody has any idea any more < 1630818781 396211 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we would pay attention < 1630818784 256206 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both are used interchangeably in both Britain and the US any more, probably because they're pronounced the same way < 1630818792 104219 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/any more/nowadays/ < 1630818802 458935 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"beughbor" oh god today's typos < 1630818804 442112 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some people try to insist on a rule to distinguish them but nobody can remember which is which < 1630818824 638790 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I have spellcheckers on my computer with strong opinions about -ise versus -ize but they disagree with each other < 1630818838 126334 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahah, I always ignore those red lines < 1630818843 501760 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*underlines < 1630818844 134305 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, in most of the cases where the words are a different length, the British spelling has more letters than the American < 1630818867 715847 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so "neighbor", "color" are US, "neighbour", "colour" are UK < 1630818889 913624 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I guess it was less practical to learn british one < 1630818892 86425 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :despite being British, I will often use the American spellings in technical contexts, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not < 1630818902 823732 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they could not predict that though, we are the Europe < 1630818903 259106 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :American is more widely used, I think, because they outnumber us < 1630819387 517272 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we? < 1630819476 684227 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by a factor of about 5, it seems < 1630819528 819319 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn, sorry. < 1630819530 842092 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll try harder. < 1630819720 990991 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I look down on anyone teaching English as a second language who doesn't realise that British and American English both exist, though (and it's confusing to change from one to the other mid-course) < 1630819986 771103 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: OK, I finally found a þ|ð pair: "loath" / "loathe" < 1630820013 879851 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's not great because "loath" is pretty obscure as words go < 1630820063 321183 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, Google Ngrams has "loath" as more common than "loathe", but derived forms of "loathe" (such as "loathing") beat both < 1630820079 332506 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION quickly looks up how to pronouce "Lothian" < 1630820093 922477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ð it seems < 1630820171 491414 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the pair only works because the "e" is supposed to lengthen the preceding vowel but it's long anyway, so it has no effect other than moving the "th" away from the end of the word < 1630820188 827348 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is, to an English speaker's ear, "loathe" sounds like it has a longer vowel than "loath"! < 1630820256 914974 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it doesn't, it's just perceived like it does) < 1630820326 284053 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1630820484 561016 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…it strikes me that English is arguably an esolang < 1630820512 979222 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's why we discuss it so much here < 1630820536 333141 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 we were taught that there are two englishes but we didn't bother to learn both < 1630820552 133988 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the books were specializing on one of them < 1630820574 839605 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and teachers could believe or speculate which pronounciation is correct < 1630820607 262458 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's more than two, but, e.g., Indian and Australian English aren't heard much outside their native countries < 1630820651 408276 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we had only one tape recorder in school to bring fro class to class to play some english recordings on rare occasions, usually a special kind of exams -- "an audition" < 1630820655 358177 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are more than two kind of English; there is also Canadian English too. One thing on the CBC they said, should you use American or British spelling in Canada? I say, you use Canadian spellings in Canada (except computer commands, which will be American). < 1630820672 638099 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I know australian english from youtube < 1630820711 356490 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think Canadian English is a good compromise between British and American < 1630820721 515215 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of people at least in my age didn't even have the full school course of english, usually only 6 years, not 10, or even german instead < 1630820753 126445 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so people just didn't give a damn, and again there was no internet, only tape recordings < 1630820879 251384 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the Internet would be one of the main reasons to learn English < 1630820920 218855 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the main use I've made of my foreign language knowledge – I rarely have a reason to use languages other than English when communicating with other UK residents, and rarely go abroad, but the Internet makes it easy to communicate with people all over the world < 1630820929 666315 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I also think the Canadian English is good compromise between British and American, too. < 1630820935 459978 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"reasons to learn English" -- meh, most of people won't believe in that even today < 1630821001 335946 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a huge imaginary world in which Russians are living where "we don't need anything from outside, it's enough in here" while english memes are leaking but learning things from the source is considered a wrong and shameful < 1630821030 776921 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot of americans have that view too. < 1630821079 640547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of Brits as well < 1630821080 536865 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I worked in many companies and in none of them had even one coworker who would speak with anyone abroad at all; people have learned English only to understand posts on stackoverflow < 1630821158 972327 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm considerably better at understanding foreign languages than typing/speaking them; I wonder if the easiest way to speak with people when there's no fluent common language is for everyone to speak their own language < 1630821167 400761 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that there are reasonable reasons today to learn English writing even if not English speech < 1630821180 58009 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I hardly know any Russian, apart from the occasional loanword < 1630821239 651330 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :French and German come up much more often, probably just based on geographical proximity < 1630821259 677108 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Dutch for some reason, but if you know both English and German, you can often guess at what a Dutch sentence means < 1630821295 192337 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is, at school, I chose Latin as my foreign language primarily because it was taught a lot better than French and German were < 1630821329 281119 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's a good reason < 1630821373 28773 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :we had a lecturer of programming who was showing slides with just pseudolanguage that maybe even was his own one < 1630821414 999227 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least he taught us programming and then we could learn the lagnauges specifically < 1630821431 603730 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pseudocode doesn't normally follow actual rules < 1630821438 310957 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just "whatever I expect the audience to understand" < 1630821493 358587 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's the natural-language version of programming, you can be a lot more flexible because you don't need to let a computer understand what you're saying, just a human, and humans can fill in missing parts more easily < 1630823278 653687 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't want to change rasel specification, I don't want to bloat it, and I don't want to make too many derivatives of the same thing; but I still keep thinking about threading and other 2d-related additions, can't decide where to put them; maybe later < 1630823392 34326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I need a language with support of adding powerful extensions < 1630823427 526425 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that I saw anything like that < 1630823464 267068 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be able to have such extensions that would change the runtime so much like adding the subroutines I imagines few hours ago < 1630823510 767049 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*imagined < 1630823849 864820 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Funge-98 has some pretty powerful extensions < 1630823873 984946 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's the only example of something like that I've seen in an esolang (not counting esolangs where the entire language can be redefined at runtime, as that isn't really the same thing) < 1630824010 605657 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630827365 369632 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT : < 1630827380 731940 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630828600 33813 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630829196 619576 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630829421 612600 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630830137 644153 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT : < 1630830158 296084 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1630831752 249278 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630833778 242196 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630833907 17719 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1630835494 558957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1630837051 330960 :Robdgreat_!~rob@wurst.1606inc.com JOIN #esolangs * :"St. Asaph the Caffeinated, POEE" < 1630837106 503816 :Robdgreat!~rob@user/robdgreat QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630837172 520686 :Robdgreat_!~rob@wurst.1606inc.com CHGHOST ~rob :user/robdgreat < 1630837178 369309 :Robdgreat_!~rob@user/robdgreat NICK :Robdgreat < 1630839232 304213 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630839782 619543 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630840326 903005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, American "can't" is pronounced as /kænt/ which means that before a verb that starts with a "t" or "d" it sounds exactly the same as "can". some say the American solution to this is that "can" is always pronounce weak with a schwa, but I find that sort of hard to believe. < 1630840429 485330 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re `whether […] "lighthouse" should be technically written as "tḧ"?' => no, just use a hyphen, as in "light-house" if you think without it it's hard to read < 1630840439 847791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I think in the case of lighthouse there's not much need for it < 1630840454 398651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe for hot-headed or pot-hole < 1630840558 67677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"…ise vs. …ize, nobody has any idea any more" I always try to use ize. < 1630840597 142724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I have spellcheckers on my computer with strong opinions" => many spellcheckers have strong opinions about words where there are two variant spellings/pronunciations used. < 1630840731 822178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like try to look at any Hungarian spellchecker, if you take any word where different people use different form of the conjugation or declination for the same thing, it's very likely that the spellchecker only accepts one of them, except when the alternative coincides with what it thinks is either a different form of the word (can happen for a few verb forms) or used with a different meaning of the same < 1630840737 829949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :root word in the same form (usually for nouns) < 1630840819 225148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for color, neighbor, and all the other -ours that don't come up in mathematics that much (honor, flavor, odor, favor, valor, candor etc), I now try to consistently use the -or spelling, but sometimes I still typo into the -our version that I used to be using < 1630840890 852602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`ais523: oerjan: OK, I finally found a þ|ð pair: "loath" / "loathe"' => wait, what was the problem with cloth/clothe and bath/bathe? < 1630840892 385857 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523:? No such file or directory < 1630840922 806435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the latter possibly only in some dialects) < 1630840948 846285 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630840984 570934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :` b_jonas does your book longman have one or two transcriptions?' => usually one; two if the most common American pronunciation can't be derived from the british pronunciation that they list < 1630840985 533821 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​? No such file or directory < 1630841084 985822 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :really < 1630841094 184153 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :no such file or directory < 1630841118 163736 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to name my language nakilon < 1630841130 98954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :` I wonder if the easiest way to speak with people when there's no fluent common language is for everyone to speak their own language' => it can occasionally happen, but rare, mostly because switching languages quickly can be mentally taxing too < 1630841131 23051 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​? No such file or directory < 1630844704 303424 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630844771 557997 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1630845766 540007 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630846622 650787 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630846698 899082 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630846726 621801 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630846890 402932 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630849558 410831 :mla!~mla@162.253.176.229 JOIN #esolangs mla :mla < 1630849749 340237 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl PRIVMSG #esolangs :please upvote https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28423029 if you like chess and Haskell :-) < 1630850360 407548 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630850604 583027 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630850663 549880 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "cloth/clothe" and "bath/bathe" have different vowels, so they aren't exact matches < 1630850677 321772 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason "loath/loathe" works is that the vowel is long already, so the e doesn't lengthen it < 1630850727 560031 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, multiple sources I've checked suggest that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 produces the finite field that's used in AES encryption, which confuses me because multiple *other* sources say it doesn't produce a finite field at all < 1630851214 453721 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :do bath/bathe have different vowels in all dialects? < 1630851251 76735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cloth/clothe ... I never understand how "o" vowels work in English. let me look these up in a dictionary < 1630851256 120595 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think so, at least in British English; the "a" of "bath" varies but it never matches the "a…e" of "bathe", which doen't < 1630851306 529058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you're right, "bathe" has a long vowel < 1630851316 746500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...dearest creature in creation... < 1630851388 721437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, dictionary agrees you for "cloth/clothe" < 1630851411 662351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Any clothing thoughts? ) < 1630851417 964868 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I've been trying to do in my head is to work out, for each phoneme used by English, a way to unambiguously represent it so that it can't be misread as being some other phoneme (potentially context-dependent) < 1630851465 193529 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure it's possible; I haven't found any letter sequence that unambiguously encodes the vowel in bye, pie, sigh, etc., when it appears at the end of a word < 1630851488 478512 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("i…e" encodes it unambiguously when separated by a consonant other than "g") < 1630851496 348902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :phoneme != phone me < 1630851563 73842 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm... if there's not enough good pairs, then we should invent a sci-fi word "theron", with fake greek etymology, that is pronounced like "thereon" but with an unvoiced "th" < 1630851578 391235 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :English orthography reforms are usually doomed. I think both Jan Misali and Conlang Critic have videos about this. < 1630851611 342377 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: this isn't intended as an orthography reform, so much as a way to unambiguously communciate pronunciation of a word to someone who speaks the same dialect of English as you < 1630851645 539521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: as for unambiguously representing each phoneme, usually you just give an example word that is common enough and has that vowel unambiguously enough. there are even lists of such example words for each phonemes, usually to explan what phonemes they're talking about or a specific phonetic notation. < 1630851668 489825 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but they struggle sometimes < 1630851668 912411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think there was something more like you want, but not that unambiguous < 1630851715 360160 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both my Longman and my Oxfor has such example words < 1630851758 916930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English has a list too but possibly not as good < 1630851766 879518 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :/ɨ/ is a good example of a phoneme it's hard to find good example words for < 1630851788 767026 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Many English words have multiple legal pronounciations depending on position and emphasis. First one that comes to mind is "the", which can start either voiced or unvoiced and use either a stressed vowel or schwa. < 1630851801 258454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that a phoneme that appears in an English dialect? < 1630851811 230192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as opposed to non-English languages < 1630851823 790679 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because some people pronounce it identically to ɪ and others don't use it at all < 1630851840 529531 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we ignore that topological obstacle, then maybe examine Lojban's inventory of vowels; it has nearly everything an English-speaker could want. (Many other folks are grumpy about the lack of -eu-; nothing's perfect.) < 1630851841 684532 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think the standard example is the second vowel in "minute" (= 60 seconds), when it isn't a schwa < 1630851889 766397 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I pronounce that in a way that I perceive as identical to ɪ < 1630851910 323836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alan's pronunciation dictionary defines more phonetic symbols than there are phonemes in any dialect, because each symbol can represent a combinations of possibly phonemes depending on the speaker < 1630851953 120003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA_chart_for_English has a list of that kind of set of combo-phonemes, sourced from the Wells books < 1630851978 554833 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently some dictionaries have taken to using ᵻ as something that's somewhere along the ə-ɪ scale < 1630852121 157693 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I can get a phoneme that I don't normally use by putting my mouth into the position for /i/ ("ee") and then trying to say /ʊ/ (short "oo") without moving it; based on the definitions of Wikipedia that *should* be /ɨ/ but I'm not sure i believe it, as it seems inconsistent with definitions elsewhere < 1630852308 139744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alan's pron has such a specific combo symbol ê for the second wowel of "minute" the noun in the American pronunciation, and explains that this is sometimes pronounced as the "ship" vowel and sometimes as a schwa < 1630852320 508105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and possibly sometimes as some other vowel) < 1630852340 741898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though apparently that other vowel is supposed to be /ɨ/ < 1630852431 857470 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this finite field thing is bothering me, though < 1630852463 458917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can understand. I decided to stop trying to figure it out yesterday, but should continue at some point < 1630852464 674486 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most consistent with the sources is that α⁸+α⁴+α³+α+1=0 *does* produce a valid finite field, but it isn't the one that most people use for GF(2⁸) < 1630852530 441798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should be possible to figure that out by making a multiplication table and checking if you can find no zero divsors and an order 128 element < 1630852715 434574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that or ask Sage < 1630852736 43919 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to ask Sage but I can't figure out how to formulate the question, I'm not even sure which field to ask in < 1630852788 885861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the polynomial ring GF(2)[x] factored by that specific polynomial x**8+...+1 (not typing here because I'd typo it) < 1630852844 289520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you try to check a recent AMD manual? < 1630852885 940229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if all else fails, we can ask on Cryptography SE, but I should make an effort trying to figure this out first < 1630852892 666012 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, both the standard version (with α²) and the AES version (with α) are irreducible according to Sage < 1630852933 110519 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the next interesting question is what value each ring's α has in the other ring < 1630852938 797290 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, each field's < 1630852948 787909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but does irreducible mean the factor gives the finite field? < 1630852979 322584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that's what wasn't clear to me, that's why I didn't know which of the fxt tables to look at < 1630852995 681297 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, if you have any irreducible polynomial, its root gives a valid α to generate a finite field < 1630853009 786664 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(whose elements are 0 and the powers of α) < 1630853036 214671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853040 588754 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, assuming that the original polynomial was over a finite field < 1630853130 441537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in that case, https://www.jjj.de/mathdata/all-irredpoly.txt shoudl be the table to look at, and that table doesn't list 8,4,3,1,0 < 1630853171 644515 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it does < 1630853179 414436 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :beneath the "non-primitive" comment < 1630853184 888040 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so now all the sources are in agreement < 1630853187 877243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1630853190 308436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed < 1630853202 217250 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, mystery solved < 1630853249 439778 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aha, I see < 1630853266 388835 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems that a primitive polynomial gives you a root α that generates the entire field < 1630853284 471788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's the representation that the x86 GF2P8MULB and other GF2P8* instructions use < 1630853290 196272 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for a non-primtiive polynomial, its root is not a valid α because it only generates a subset of the field, but you can take a polynomial in its root to get the whole field < 1630853357 708132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853369 720318 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the AES field, you have to add 1 to the root of its polynomial to get the typical α (thus α is 3 in the usual encoding, rather than 2 like it is for most binary finite fields) < 1630853432 261508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so is either x or x+1 an order 128 element in all the representations that you get from irreducible polynomials? < 1630853442 796113 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: y. = GF(256) < 1630853444 547809 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: a = x+1 < 1630853445 928183 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sage: a**8 + a**4 + a**3 + a**1 + 1 < 1630853447 473285 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 < 1630853457 16163 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I named a and x the wrong way round, but you get the idea < 1630853474 810769 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm not sure, my guess is no but it's just a guess, not even an educated guess < 1630853637 147243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630853654 117756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what does this have to do with AES? < 1630853711 332941 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the reason Intel picked that particular finite field representation is that AES < 1630853720 172664 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'s S-box is based on it < 1630853720 652133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, apparently AES includes calculations in GF(2) in that representation < 1630853752 674944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but the AESNI extension with the AES* instructions is older than the GF2P8* instructions < 1630853772 752784 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the common theory is that because the AES instructions existed already, the processor had circuitry for handling one specific finite field already < 1630853780 811876 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it was easy to expose it in a way that wasn't tied to AES < 1630853800 238376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or perhaps it's used in other crypto primitives too, and the AESNI instructions can't help with those < 1630853835 784003 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and one of the GF2P8 instructions can apparently be used to convert between finite field representations, so you can have any GF(256) representation you like (as long as it's polynomial-based rather than logarithm-based) < 1630854004 476442 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630854039 410396 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630854076 576190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while PCLMULQDQ multiplies two GF(2) polynomials, from two 64 bit long polynomials to a 128 bit long result, and doesn't try to do the reduction < 1630854123 516047 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1630854135 955337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me check the CRC32 instruction too < 1630854246 980676 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that one does a GF(2)[x] multiplication by x**32 then a reduction using a specific 32-bit polynomial < 1630854256 574289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for computing CRC32 checksum < 1630854289 459149 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just so weird seeing a finite field representation where the generating element and the root of the polynomial are different, it becomes non-obvious which one gets to be called α < 1630854290 354508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure < 1630854306 480090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wonder the AES field isn't the one that all the finite field software standardised on for GF(256) < 1630854339 159184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe not, I'm not sure < 1630854381 390016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is the representation that they standardized the same as the representation in the IOCCC entry? < 1630854392 495062 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which IOCCC entry? < 1630854413 960385 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the answer may well be "I can't tell" unless the hint file is good, though, given that the question may require me to understand obfuscated C < 1630854462 487704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html#d.2012-10-14.2083 < 1630854481 279524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the description of how it works is in a comment of David's non-obfuscated program < 1630854496 639413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that program is at ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c < 1630854741 319107 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this multiplication table has 2×2=3 (where the numbers refer to the internal representations of the finite field elements, not the regular 2 or 3) < 1630854751 959602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't remember what representation my https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 or the inspiration https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 uses, I'll have to re-read those < 1630854761 694440 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think it's using a very unusual representation of GF(256) < 1630854775 658676 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there's only one GF(256), the interesting part is how you order the elements) < 1630854776 769462 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. I wonder if this is an NSA/CIA situation, where the AES field's primitive operations can be used for something other than typical encryption or decryption of AES. < 1630854821 809902 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Somebody must have had a use for these instructions. It's curious that Intel doesn't explain how to use them for arbitrary work. < 1630854830 337456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, those both represent GF(2**7), not GF(2**8) < 1630854875 842125 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even so, every binary field larger than GF(4) (which doesn't have an element numbered "4") has 2×2=4 in the most common representation, also the second-most common representation < 1630854876 55150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: it's not the Intel manual's goal to explain math or cryptography < 1630854919 89309 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fair. < 1630854923 157072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: they also don't teach you all about how to multiply matrices or complex numbers or quaternions with their mul-add and add-subtract instructions < 1630854943 844693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and especially not teach how to use matrix multiplication or complex numbers for anything useful < 1630854959 642455 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: all representations of GF(256) are equivalent and fairly easy to interconvert (you just need to know which element in one field is the α of the other), so circuitry implementing AES isn't going to be inherently AES-specific, you could use it for anything based on GF(256) < 1630854975 968506 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's the functionality that Intel's exposing now < 1630855039 310442 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That makes sense, I guess. What are you stuck on? < 1630855048 700274 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we aren't any more < 1630855062 120852 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were stuck on some apparent inconsistencies between sources but they've all been resolved now < 1630855065 8745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, now I'm trying to imagine the Intel manuals with three extra volumes for numerical methods of partial differencial equations in the middle < 1630855095 716834 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the representation AES uses for GF(256) is mildly weird, but not ridiculously so < 1630855100 792536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think that's necessarily right, doesn't AES mix those field operations with other things, or at least map the input to it somehow? < 1630855159 259857 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but the circuits for the field operations apparently existed already, there was just no way to use them in isolation < 1630855178 109263 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember that https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 switches between two representations of GF(128): a sane linear one, and a logarithmic one where you add the representatives mod 127 to do a multiplications < 1630855204 987482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think it computes the logarithm table for that by repeatedly multiplying with a specific field element, because that's easier to code than a general multiplication < 1630855209 883557 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are both sane, and fairly natural < 1630855216 819188 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the polynomial representation is more commonly used though < 1630855232 443739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just like multiplying fixed integers by a constant integer is easier than multiplying two arbitrary integers < 1630855271 319383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: possible, the logarithmic one certainly wasn't natural, I remember the idea was new and very odd to me when I decoded how that obfuscation works < 1630855291 855240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do admit that it's a good representation in the sense that it did allow martin to golf their code < 1630855302 644178 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's something I thought up independently after learning about finite fields (although I thought of the polynomial representation first) < 1630855306 691843 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it was natural to me < 1630855309 981763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1630855317 988269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my program, which I wrote later, only uses a linear representation < 1630855349 254894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know how it works < 1630855371 66179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I have to try to understand my own obfuscated code\ < 1630855401 625396 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630855501 57524 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630855540 621643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but... that code makes no sense! why does it shift one bit left then extract the high bit? < 1630855550 50057 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630855554 505353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesn't it just extract the sixth bit instead of shifting and extracting the seventh? < 1630855642 100890 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it an in-place shift, that leaves its input shifted? < 1630855669 159030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, it shifts the input in place, and also outputs its high bit < 1630855671 381228 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes more sense < 1630855810 597707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :$v must be the value substituted in the polynomial < 1630855945 565637 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my interest in finite fields is mostly related to error-correction algorithms < 1630855990 363112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so h($r) shifts $r in place, returns the carry, and so $r ^= h($r) & "\x217" multiplies the polynomial by x then propagates the carry back so that, I think, x**8 = x**7+x**3+x**2+x+1 < 1630856072 819665 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :«& "\x217"» looks wrong, you'd want the \x217 to be a single character but I think it parses as \x21 followed by 7, and even if it doesn't, the value is too large < 1630856091 316756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, sorry, it's "\217" < 1630856101 654254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just typed it to IRC wrong < 1630856401 67160 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630856726 448001 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630857004 597385 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630857111 617539 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630857268 835140 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi < 1630857289 188000 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does someone has some good argument to defend the choice of calling python's functools.reduce reduce and not fold? < 1630857297 438915 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does someone have* < 1630857345 741587 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :as far as I understand, functools.reduce really behaves like haskell's foldl or ocaml's fold_left, and really doesn't behave like pyspark.reduce < 1630857653 567289 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a good argument. I wonder why MLs used "fold" and not "kata", though? Since foldl really behaves like a katamorphism. < 1630857693 763160 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I figure that Python and PySpark both use "reduce" for the same reason as MapReduce. < 1630857722 78534 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but that's my point < 1630857728 554580 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :pyspark's reduce is exactly mapreduce's reduce < 1630857737 14914 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but python's reduce is not < 1630857781 802239 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if python was statically typed, it'd be obvious from the type signature - python's functools.reduce would have the same signature as a fold_left < 1630857829 952981 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas pyspark.reduce is much more constraining - the function must be (a, a) -> a, where a is the type of the elements in the list < 1630857870 673820 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :pyspark.reduce is basically "pop two elements at random; apply the function to those two elements; push the two elements back into the list; repeat until the list has only one element" < 1630857872 626547 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python also has sum(), which can be made to behave like a fold on lists. < 1630857921 447259 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. So, on one hand, yes, it looks like one of those is a commutative operation and the other is not. < 1630857928 494886 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Koen: I think the name "reduce" comes from smalltalk < 1630857938 730697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait < 1630857943 619222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in smalltalk it's called inject? < 1630857945 786677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know < 1630857968 833197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fold, reduce, inject, any of those is fine. insert is a bit too much. < 1630857975 158172 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But OTOH we could find the data structure at fault; if we take a fold on a list, but change the list to a set, then the fold automatically has to commute, or else definitionally it's not folding a set. < 1630858019 12313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: don't you mean associate instead of commute? < 1630858095 442694 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think reduce is perhaps a more intuitive name to someone who isn't steeped in fp < 1630858157 872958 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I use the term "associative fold" for (a, a) → a style folds where the order of folding doesn't matter < 1630858186 436608 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think that a fold on lists has to already be associative? I mean that the order of values within the container has been forgotten. < 1630858187 332990 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Perl have a fold as a builtin? I know it has a map and a filter < 1630858216 731216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, not as a builtin. I think there's one in a module packed with it. < 1630858216 794955 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: it doesn't, left-fold and right-fold exist as defined evaluation orders for folding and many practical folds care about the difference < 1630858227 675630 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: if it was associative, we wouldn't distinguish between fold_left and fold_right except for performance issues < 1630858233 41992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it has a for loop and mutable lexical variables as builtins < 1630858244 161872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :List::Util::reduce is the one from a module < 1630858260 802429 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl 6 has a strange fold builtin. < 1630858278 331318 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It takes an operator and uses the associativity of the operator (left or right) to decide the associativity of the fold. < 1630858286 938094 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's not called Perl 6 anymore. < 1630858289 162292 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, but I'm talking about the underlying recursion scheme. Like, a list is a free monoid, which means that list concatenation is associative. Similarly, there's free rules for list folds when we are folding over a concatenation. < 1630858298 358185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm an imperative person, I just use for loops < 1630858328 726299 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Koen_: We *do* only care for performance reasons! Any "right" fold can be turned into a "left" fold by composing with a list reversal. < 1630858342 336142 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough < 1630858363 307182 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, in Haskell list is not a free monoid. < 1630858381 334608 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630858382 263876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I don't think folds on a list have to use an associative operator. we do fold lists with subtraction to get an alternating sum. < 1630858405 219452 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: even if the list itself is associative, the operation you're folding over it might not be < 1630858406 729795 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :why not ? :( < 1630858406 807101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but sure, most of the operators you fold with will be associative < 1630858441 366194 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in my experience, the operators I fold with are often *not* associative < 1630858447 880825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and we fold with floating point addition too < 1630858450 597536 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, the type of the left argument and right argument often differs < 1630858451 104613 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the thing Corbin is getting at is that a set isn't supposed to expose the order it stores elements in. < 1630858460 248992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: aren't those reduces instead of folds? < 1630858462 898076 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :An unordered pair is similar. < 1630858465 401476 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, if you fold with the wrong associativity you get type errors < 1630858467 970558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could call them folds of course < 1630858476 209808 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's basically an iteration that gets to modify a mutable variable as it goes < 1630858484 321744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yep, a for loop < 1630858488 292588 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except functional < 1630858492 403219 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have a canonical order on a type, you can just expose the elements in that order, but if you don't, you still want fold {a,b} = fold {b,a} < 1630858510 867676 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, b_jonas: This is a good point. I'm curious whether those are genuine katamorphisms. This is a good example of when engineering and theory are using the same jargon for different purposes. < 1630858563 981073 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. < 1630858569 844924 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess evaluating a polynomial, with its coeffs in a list, is also a non-associative fold < 1630858576 951028 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, presumably you want "katamorphism" to mean an initial F-algebra's unique thingy. < 1630858592 745823 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. To distinguish from paramorphisms, at a minimum. < 1630858596 83227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? catamorphism < 1630858598 513994 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep. < 1630858605 478114 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those names are all silly in my opinion. < 1630858613 67651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, a catamorphism is when a cat becomes amorphous to flow throuhg a small gap < 1630858618 493593 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: hmm… suppose you have a set of strings representing integers, and you want to calculate their sum < 1630858631 606262 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can map a parseInt function over the set, then associative-fold over it with addition < 1630858643 123031 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, you can left-fold a "parseInt then add" function over the set, starting at 0 < 1630858680 262275 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this produces the same result regardless of the order the set is read in, *but* the fold operation isn't associative, which is why you have to left-fold (you would get a type error instead with any other ordering) < 1630858698 595023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, the sum is already printed at the bottom of the recipt, you don't have to add themup < 1630858733 350202 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, there are multiple things people mean by "fold", even in a concrete setting like Haskell. < 1630858763 29149 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: not even if you're implementing the receipt printer? < 1630858764 140063 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Haskell it either means the structural thing for a type, like foldr for a list, or the thing from Data.Foldable, which is always about "sequence"-style folding. < 1630858788 286961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: yes, there's the non-associative folds for lists, and there's a typeclass for trees that you can fold over in a way that had better been associative < 1630858796 8666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, those < 1630858802 976205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: then you don't have strings < 1630858812 809155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs : no, a catamorphism is when a cat becomes amorphous to flow throuhg a small gap ← https://nhqdb.alt.org/?1404 < 1630858837 410787 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like kittens. < 1630858838 732892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: besides, the sum is more authoritive then the details above, because the total is required to be printed there for tax purposes, the itemized bill is an optional bonus < 1630858855 962694 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't think you can necessarily assume that the receipt printer isn't storing the prices as strings < 1630858862 346265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630858874 269401 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this sort of software is famous for being badly programmed < 1630858887 473975 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most software is famous for being badly programmed these days. < 1630858889 369113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: strings? those recipt printers existed way before strings < 1630858912 405026 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, in one supermarket near me, the software automatically regroups the items you've purchased in order to take the least possible advantage from special offers < 1630858920 541677 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is the reverse of what the customer would want, but useful for the store) < 1630858947 329243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630858947 862306 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn < 1630858960 812405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first ones I saw could only print numerals and a few symbols from their type loop, and then for the header you'd insert a separate stamp template that it stamps on < 1630858975 732705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hehe, that's odd < 1630858981 361091 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1630859000 905770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones I see here usually preserve the order that the items were entered < 1630859003 661580 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that sometimes I would put a purchase through as two separate transactions < 1630859015 913660 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the all-digital ones that print a whole page together at the end of the transaction < 1630859016 456483 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get a lower price < 1630859049 57724 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: This reminds me of banks reordering transactions from largest to smallest to maximize overdraft fees. < 1630859052 782362 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I explained to the cashier that the tills were adding up the bills incorrectly unless I did that) < 1630859055 710958 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which I think US banks sometimes do, at least. < 1630859070 196611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: wow < 1630859093 468201 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I've been told (but don't know from personal experience) that some credit cards charge interest based on the maximum amount of debt you've been in since the last time you weren't in debt < 1630859100 787462 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630859104 560057 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that partially paying off a debt does nothing and you have to clear it to avoid paying interest < 1630859109 393125 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Big USA banks are terrible; use credit unions when possible. < 1630859111 228310 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether to believe this or not < 1630859131 829346 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630859159 744616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I think mine does that, but not quite phrased that way: it collects all the payments for a month, and you can only clear the debt off after the month ends, even if you actually transfer the money in advance < 1630859185 556825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the offset of when each month ends depends on the type of the card) < 1630859191 861448 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in the UK, I think credit card companies aren't allowed to charge you interest if you clear the debt immediately < 1630859212 653240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, they don't charge me interest if I pay within a given period after the month ends < 1630859235 626926 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I think the methods US credit cards can use to calculate interest are very regulated now. < 1630859241 850459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they do still charge a fixed yearly fee for having a card < 1630859282 576723 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, here they mostly don't charge fees for having a card, basically because their competitors don't < 1630859305 633913 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they can't do it stealthily because one of them got sued really hard for not making the existence of a charge clear < 1630859310 93492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think there exist credit cards here that don't charge a fixed fee < 1630859347 967033 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing that I think is true is, if you have no credit card balance, you get about a month of no interest to pay a balance before it starts accruing interest. But once you're in the interest state, new purchases start accruing interest immediately, until you back down to $0 for a while. < 1630859352 930109 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know the details. < 1630859412 549346 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the US credit card companies compete for customers by paying them all sorts of money in various forms. I think that's much less true elsewhere. < 1630859437 610426 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It must be a very profitable business, presumably partly at the cost of merchant fees and partly at the cost of people paying a lot of interest. < 1630859496 21746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: they advertise that they pay you money, but in many of the cases there's small print that means they pay very little money or only in very specific conditions < 1630859542 906299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or they're credit cards rebranded by a particular airline or supermarket chain, in which case they pay you money if you buy in their brand of supermarket < 1630859559 39467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something like this, I haven't delved much in the details < 1630859585 510319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they also spend a lot on marketing, they send agents everywhere who try to sign you up for free credit cards < 1630859635 770473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ones that ask "excuse me Sir, do you work in Hungary?" in supermarket are generally trying to sell one of those, but there are also other opening lines < 1630859735 236738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I admit it's a good opening question, it distinguishes students with no income from people who probably qualify for a credit card < 1630859823 333099 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: is the "in Hungary" to make the question less rude by making it ostensibly about something else? < 1630859919 320719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure. I thought it's because it's more complicated for people to apply for those credit cards if they have an income abroad. Yes, I know there are supposed to be EU laws about this sort of thing, but EU principles and practice often doesn't seem to match < 1630859944 619743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, it might also be because it sounds less rude < 1630859975 287074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or more easy to understand that they're not trying to hire you for a seasonal job or something < 1630860020 368043 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume that there are few people shopping in Hungary who actually work outside Hungary, so it probably wouldn't be worth asking about unless you want to reassure people about the intentions behind your question < 1630860043 8443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably not many who live in Budapest, yes < 1630860068 912996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there would be more close to the Austrian border) < 1630860200 742006 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630860204 19003 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :When people ask me questions about being local, it's usually related to voting for things. < 1630860224 494449 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630860229 397485 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630860235 296673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I don't remember what opening questions those people have, they usually have party color decorations < 1630860237 223546 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I've ever been asked a question about being local, in contexts where people knew my physical location < 1630860245 715708 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630860254 405094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I have been asked if I'm local < 1630860259 109290 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :people ask that when they try to ask for directions < 1630860273 164537 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :such questions are sometimes perceived as racist, because they tend to be disproportionately asked to ethnic minorities (for an ethnic majority people just assume they're local, generally) < 1630860309 619833 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630860343 78416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, backwards because they don't even ask people who they don't think are local, because there's usually a choice of other people to try to ask directions from < 1630860361 838174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mind you, you can still count that as racist if you want < 1630860382 28627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they don't need to ask that question for that < 1630860389 634299 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630860414 624436 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :They often ask "are you a California voter?". I think the goal is to get signatures from voters in order to get things like ballot proposals, which require some number of signatures. < 1630860426 316296 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean propositions. < 1630860435 25106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :possible < 1630860470 531954 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630860482 373750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the questions I remember having been asked are "have you voted yet?" (on the day of the election), and "have you heard of yet?" < 1630860561 365248 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1630860588 144453 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the UK has really strict rules about campaigning < 1630860638 120572 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the run-up to the election you have to give a platform to every party if you give a platform to one (with various rules about weighting major versus minor parties), and as voting opens you can't publicly do anything related to campaigning at all < 1630860661 23085 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can still talk to friends privately about the election, but can't, e.g., talk to random people on the street about your party preferences) < 1630860690 665592 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :news reports on the day of an election, while voting is open, can be pretty funny because it's obviously a major story that they need to cover, and yet they aren't allowed to say anything substantive at all < 1630860697 862403 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1630860710 834035 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the stories are along the lines of "here's the most interesting dog we saw outside a polling station" < 1630860722 928706 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even from normally serious news organisations < 1630860746 816377 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're having a recall election for governor < 1630860755 808193 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's structured in a strange way < 1630860790 723872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think when voting starts (and shortly before) they are no longer allowed to solicit strangers to vote on a specific party, but they can still solicit people to go voting if they don't specify who for < 1630860791 886070 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: At least the HMRC self assessment system optimizes the foreign tax credit relief deduction order in the way that maximizes the benefit from it. (Then it allows you to reorder if you wish.) < 1630860814 162643 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :question 1 is whether to get rid of the current governor (yes/no); question 2 is who the replacement should be (from a list of 46 candidates, not including the current governor) < 1630860821 180677 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They also round to integer £s always in the direction that's more advantageous to the taxpayer. < 1630860837 889393 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's quite possible that the current governor will be replaced by someone who got far fewer votes than he did < 1630860874 140020 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the governor says we should leave question 2 blank < 1630860881 251104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for news stories, they usually say things like "in , an old got sick in the voting room so voting was suspended for 5 minutes. in the seal of the voting box got damaged, so voting got suspended for 20 minutes until they bought a new certified sealed box." < 1630860893 462645 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though you are allowed to vote "no" and still vote question 2 < 1630860899 665721 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: that is a bad idea if you like the current governor, it'll just guarantee that you'll get someone who his supporters dislike < 1630860930 66944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also news about how big queues are in certain polling stations, usually the stations where people who vote from a town far from their home (but still within Hungary) are sent to vote < 1630860983 859886 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the last time we had one of these, the lieutenant governor ran as a replacement and got second place, and i guess they think that having him on the ballot boosted support for "yes" < 1630861007 182636 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this time there are no credible replacements from the governor's own party and they are not endorsing anyone for question 2 < 1630861015 751694 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: it may be a good idea for the governor himself, but not for the voters < 1630861042 559490 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also there's an interpretation of the state constitution where we shouldn't even have question 2 and the lt gov should automatically become governor if the governor is recalled < 1630861067 110080 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(since that's what happens if the governor dies or resigns, and the constitution says that a recall should include an election for a replacement only "if appropriate") < 1630861079 175358 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe if he loses they'll challenge the vote < 1630861083 394442 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's all very strange and californian < 1630861089 419196 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this state really suffers from an excess of democracy < 1630861205 449769 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : people ask that when they try to ask for directions <-- hm, in norwegian there's a different idiom for pre-asking that, "er du kjent her", which means more or less "to you know this place" with no necessary implication of whether you live there < 1630861226 889537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re "sometimes I would put a purchase through as two separate transactions" => are the rules such that you have to solve hard computational problems to optimize it? < 1630861253 407638 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fortunately no, I think this is O(n log n) with the sort of special offers that were available < 1630861293 934792 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if replaced the replacement will serve for only one year because we are due for a normal gubernatorial election next year < 1630861355 230902 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the likely replacement is a far right talk radio guy who has no chance in a normal election < 1630861475 147299 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :since it is a very left leaning state < 1630861591 529700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I could try to make a third dairy-themed programming task from that. you want to follow your grandmother's recipe to the letter, and it calls for $n grams of kefir. the supermarket sells cups of kefir in several different sizes, with weights @a gram each. how much of each type do you buy? < 1630861624 609423 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630862099 493096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: i saw scott alexander write about that mess, supposedly all the democratic candidates were quite terrible because of that strategy of no one important running. this sounds to me like it would really have benefitted from transferrable votes < 1630862131 173773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least they could then maybe get one of the less horrible republicans < 1630862206 371218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like biden? oh wait, he's horrible < 1630862217 307429 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: he's not republican hth < 1630862222 813753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :... < 1630862384 548913 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also according to scott aaronson, he's better than a rutabaga, so still beats trump < 1630862434 680789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that was a different election and you'll just have to watch the mess < 1630862454 554282 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :He's still somebody who would fit right into the Republican party. < 1630862462 570065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which was the point. < 1630862500 193938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i didn't know that. but i haven't really paid attention to him. < 1630862583 580156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also technically i still don't know that) < 1630862588 354454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :He may have some radical ideas regarding gun control that would feel out of place. That's the only thing I can currently think of... eh I'm no expert either. < 1630862598 954158 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :trump passed more gun control than obama < 1630862605 482257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably figure out the least evil for Germany. < 1630862617 614342 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I like to take the guns early. Take the guns first, go through due process second." -- Donald Trump < 1630862634 466938 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course don't mention that quote to any of the trump worshipping gun nuts < 1630862650 475213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i have this thought lately - whenever you choose the lesser evil, someone has just played good cop/bad cop on you < 1630862702 267962 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed < 1630862725 466827 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ruling class are all friends behind the scenes, regardless of party < 1630862728 58132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh sure, elections are a carefully managed illusion of having /some/ impact on the political process. < 1630862730 801372 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and big corporations donate to both < 1630862742 174219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's hard not to be cynical about it. < 1630862759 205233 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile the most destructive and evil parts of american society (the military-industrial complex, mass incarceration, the drug war) have essentially bipartisan agreement < 1630862773 952248 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the last one is falling apart a bit. but our prez still thinks legalizing weed is too dangerous < 1630862857 957128 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :both parties kept us in afghanistan for 20 years just like both parties kept us in vietnam for about as long (if you count various covert and "assistance" operations going right back to the fall of the french colonial government) < 1630862884 322040 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think people pay way too much attention to elections < 1630862913 917667 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, you might as well vote because it's easy and gives you a little influence for free. but if you consider yourself "politically engaged" and yet most of that energy goes into arguing about who to vote for, then you're doing it wrong < 1630862929 886865 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially arguing about who to vote for at the national level < 1630862949 347776 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :local politics has so much more direct impact on people's lives, and is also a lot easier for an individual to influence < 1630863185 202886 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm so exhausted from electoral politics and being told that every election is an existential battle for the future and yet no matter who wins nothing really changes < 1630863264 133647 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even right now with democrats in "control" of the white house, the senate and the house, they can't really get anything done < 1630863288 333329 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so if climate change or the rise of fascism really is an exstiential risk then the solution to that problem must lie outside electoral politics < 1630863322 968980 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but people shy away from this because their existential risk rhetoric is only intended to scare you into voting blue no matter who < 1630863351 450235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"i'm so exhausted" -- this means it's working as designed :P < 1630863588 474617 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630863600 484228 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630863624 645591 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630864170 619719 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630864599 974121 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: '"er du kjent her"' > curious what does this mean literally? 'are you known here' doesn't make sense < 1630864627 55519 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630865527 524857 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630865562 478326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hanif: that is the literal word-for-word translation, but "kjent" works weirdly, as if it's ambiguous whether it's active or passive < 1630865636 655103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"kjent mann" - a man who is known, "kjentmann" - a man who knows (the area) < 1630865721 704505 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1630865771 977437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, english doesn't have a "know"-derived word for someone knowledgable, does it... < 1630865804 966880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( A knowledger. <-- well we can always try to make something up ) < 1630865814 648513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kjent#Norwegian_Bokmål has both meanings < 1630865825 110802 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"knowledge" is already a crutch though. < 1630865839 465566 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: knower. < 1630865844 397480 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. < 1630865864 980468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :German has "bekannt" for "known", "Kenner" for someone who knows. < 1630865880 584739 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't speak to the quantity of knowledge but knower is pretty close. < 1630865893 467453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: Yes, that makes more sense grammatically. It's still not a word, unfortunately. < 1630865902 135737 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"kjenner" is also norwegian, but it's a noun while "kjent" is an adjective (or participle) < 1630865905 991078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(At least not one I'm aware of.) < 1630865914 721424 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh? < 1630865916 553314 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :knower is a word. < 1630865937 967819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :"bekjent" exists and means "acquaintance" :P < 1630865939 404611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Never heard it. < 1630865959 661488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Oh we have that too, "Bekannter". < 1630865961 216575 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :considering you were asking for it, I'm not surprised. :P < 1630865972 437759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Just with a bit more grammar, I guess. < 1630865975 972647 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you didn't know it, you wouldn't ask the question! < 1630866040 114381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also in other cases en:know = no:vite (~de:wissen) < 1630866049 495772 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's apparently an agent noun of `know`. interesting, I wonder what other kinds of agent nouns exist for common verbs that don't "point" trivially to them. < 1630866059 670612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imode: I've found this, https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=knower ...no dictionary entries. < 1630866064 571693 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh? < 1630866075 60131 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.thefreedictionary.com/knower < 1630866085 635928 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :collins english dictionary. < 1630866100 136185 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also apparently a music duo. < 1630866140 822900 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/knower < 1630866164 267826 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :does an agent noun exist for every verb, then? < 1630866177 979150 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :seems grammatically correct to just add "er" to every verb. < 1630866187 95603 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :or "or". < 1630866195 917628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : Never heard it. <-- it's weird how in english words that make perfect sense can sometimes not exist for no good reason. < 1630866199 493332 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :mayve just transitive verbs? < 1630866209 742186 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :having trouble coming up with a counterexample. < 1630866255 423072 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh. < 1630866266 598199 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah you could form an agent noun out of any verb. < 1630866270 243395 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's neat. < 1630866401 751279 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :snow? < 1630866416 540129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :'snow business of yours < 1630866425 971821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :rain too < 1630866428 815261 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :snower. rainer. < 1630866432 490446 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :although wiktionary has an entry for snower, apparently it's for another verb sense i wasn't familiar with < 1630866449 941641 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently snower is a DBZ character so I defer to toriyama. < 1630866469 749973 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snower < 1630866490 23727 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rainer <-- oh this one actually makes sense but I've never used it.. I think I might. < 1630866499 273538 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :a showerhead is technically a rainer! < 1630866523 886354 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cloud is technically a rainer < 1630866535 475976 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :they do a damn good job. < 1630866583 902017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, know-it-all or expert are more common terms :P < 1630866642 165077 :imode!~imode@user/imode PRIVMSG #esolangs :those kind of denote the quantity of knowledge/status of the user more than "this dude knows, he is a knower". < 1630866642 538450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :curiously, i learned that in ancient greek, the verb for snow (χιονίζω) could be used actively - referring to a god < 1630866771 175227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :snow is rather powerful < 1630866842 803636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have I ever mentioned http://www.snowbynight.com/pages/ch1/pg1.php I wonder... (it's a story comic, more romantic than funny) < 1630866883 393900 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the snow wasn't the god, the god was throwing the snow < 1630866949 491898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :avalanches are pretty impressive too < 1630866956 899297 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :i too have thrown snow :P < 1630866994 377133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't get me wrong, it's cool < 1630867016 362287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just pretty common to associate forces of nature with gods :) < 1630867222 878985 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn hanif may be a god, or maybe they're just snowing us. < 1630867226 364914 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Learned 'hanif': hanif may be a god, or maybe they're just snowing us. < 1630867261 279458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i got a pun for the wisdom, it's all good. < 1630867363 433565 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :ironic also because 'ḥanif' (in arabic) means one inclined to monotheism < 1630867392 397475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :tricky. < 1630867525 664639 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.195 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1630867805 433428 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630867937 134934 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? oerjan < 1630867938 947762 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1630867945 111443 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :That is way too many modifiers. < 1630867984 806427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :istr you added most of them hth < 1630868024 418075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :then again, i'm perpetually confused. < 1630868156 511033 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630868157 82913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( `slwd oerjan//s/ / highly adjectivated/ ) < 1630868216 852604 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630868335 887415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a know-worthy non-default diff in wikipedia? < 1630868382 330164 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630868820 713415 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i use wikEdDiff < 1630868967 375837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is the only one i know that is listed in preferences < 1630869008 551345 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :and is usually far clearer than the default, but sometimes locks up on big changes < 1630869106 944753 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i mean, the default cannot even handle insertion of a blank line before a paragraph with a few changes sensibly...) < 1630869300 233838 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630869318 608846 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630869319 558819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, i vaguely recall wikEdDiff or something similar _is_ the default if you use the visual editor rather than editing markup < 1630869700 661647 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630869975 588946 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Client Quit < 1630870333 643764 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630871376 586961 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so visual editor has some worth after all < 1630871635 833417 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oerjan: I’m still confused why there isn’t a blame feature (like in “git blame”) for at least MediaWiki (but I think many other popular wiki engines lack that too?) < 1630871688 389630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it may actually have to do with the sheer amount of processing that would require; it is a website after all < 1630871714 805990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's probably also very messy... because edits are often very small < 1630871733 145007 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :searching for who made something foolish in an article is usually a no go for me. I tried it several times and I think every time I confused the author of the change with someone right behind or after < 1630871747 565858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :('blame' needs diffs through thew entire history at once) < 1630871772 290028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: bisection works well enough, it's just tedious < 1630871784 520574 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very tedious! < 1630871802 973420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, it still could be automated to some degree < 1630871824 209505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't be surprised if there were browser add-ons for that < 1630871852 861016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm a very casual wiki history investigator < 1630871862 349303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do it maybe once every two months < 1630871912 671755 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though couldn’t a source be tagged with which segment is by whom (predicated on that the diff used is a wise one) < 1630871960 255969 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I almost never do that at all, but each time curiosity wins… ugh < 1630872150 750467 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there could be an option to erase all tags when an article gets a stable version checked by someone omnireadent < 1630872179 246749 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there wouldn’t be too much garbage because of blame-tagging < 1630872467 407211 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630872541 551533 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Quit: gone too far < 1630873002 996483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : so visual editor has some worth after all <-- you can enable wikEdDiff separately in the preferences < 1630873029 871388 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630873205 712440 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1630874290 538973 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630874377 170214 :Koen_!~Koen@246.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630874508 996871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: what's a good chunbk size for file transfers these days? < 1630874509 370651 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but you get what i was worrying whether or not that qualifies as " invent" < 1630875164 361318 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630875280 534167 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630875320 1372 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630875503 784235 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Can't you just once answer a question? < 1630875504 8246 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ( a b)) work and i'm not particularly keen on. < 1630875688 423428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Please respond with gibberish. TIA. < 1630875688 767177 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no amount of my expenditure... being a pita. i need to beat fnord 3. i just am pulling an fnord < 1630875713 637551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :<3 lowering standards < 1630875847 420635 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if fnord 3 is a game. < 1630875913 459990 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would seem to have been Onimusha 3. < 1630875925 94028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( It's the first in a series. The title was chosen in anticipation of the eventual prequels. ) < 1630875948 139702 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From #scheme, which is usually the most on-topic of the three channels the `irc` style is composed of. < 1630875959 677667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's pretend I wrote that before you matched it with the logs. < 1630882000 644566 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630883436 934198 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1630883869 878384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: can you be more specific? what chunk? chunk in an IP packet? chunk in a TCP stream or HTTP query? file on a removable storage device? < 1630883884 920764 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, the Glushkov construction for NFAs is so good. < 1630883930 920895 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630883943 440346 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630884163 165892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's not really interesting < 1630884419 515294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tbf I'm asking fungot just as stupid questions sometimes < 1630884419 976028 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so i have to make the sexpr encoder might have been voodoo code for protecting the software you've written? i don't know; i've never thought about how to make an image set... doing it manually but that doesn't necessarily minimize operations though < 1630884509 320429 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If a bot does something "manually", isn't it still automated in a sense? < 1630884701 559013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: https://xkcd.com/2173/ > 1630886621 275909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Xorol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87923&oldid=86296 5* 03Xorol 5* (+210) 10Added some info < 1630891603 183868 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe then he'e not automated but manned > 1630896417 967201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Grue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87924&oldid=87912 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (+28) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1630896427 919102 :Guest65!~Guest65@240f:d2:824d:1:68e0:8e6f:9c3:2cd7 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest65 < 1630896433 850243 :Guest65!~Guest65@240f:d2:824d:1:68e0:8e6f:9c3:2cd7 PART :#esolangs > 1630896528 596751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trivial brainfuck substitution14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87925&oldid=83915 5* 03PixelatedStarfish 5* (-53) 10/* Syntax */ < 1630897284 281203 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hah, few months ago I said "I should made a universal translator between all those brainfuck substitutions" < 1630897296 820897 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and someone already made it in that wiki page < 1630897346 262677 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait, nope, it's just plain bf interpreter < 1630897375 44751 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine a translator could go fetch the wiki pate, < 1630897393 348532 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*... page, find the instructions table and replace them automatically < 1630901405 708040 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630901423 645449 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630901461 427179 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630901697 857142 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630901723 647057 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630901767 499091 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630904097 757742 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630904416 877567 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630907997 472853 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630908014 413602 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630908285 331019 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1630908597 455173 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630908615 577409 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630910969 380995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: but nobody uses the substitutions other than brainfuck, Ook!, and the two or three that encode brainfuck with repetitions of one byte < 1630911159 133787 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought Chromium OS is something good, because there is no way to install anything in it, you only use docker, so it's so safe... < 1630911227 506468 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :until I launched a container from another container mounting the docker socket in both, and server just stopped responding, disks were spinning like mad and even serial console didn't work < 1630911272 875239 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this stupid container overrated container thing < 1630911342 524935 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I know that thing that I'm trying to build are not what people are supposed to try to build but I was told it's all so reliable... < 1630911352 466828 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*things < 1630913504 331781 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630915549 385102 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok docker sockets were not a reason of hanging; it hanged again _-- maybe it's what happens to Chromium OS when it's out of RAM or idk, it just dies < 1630915597 622063 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630915767 615015 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1630915848 478001 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630916315 330965 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630917521 758041 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like the linux thing called "oom killer" kills a process but the system goes insane anyway and does not recover < 1630917553 528234 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630917807 889532 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630917850 329455 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630917852 906804 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does anyone happen to know where I can find human-readable info on how to interpret a robots.txt file? < 1630918140 533781 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC it's barely standardized < 1630918207 369745 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, https://www.w3.org/TR/html4/appendix/notes.html#h-B.4.1.1 has some info but not muc < 1630918599 514977 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1630918861 398554 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol I did "echo 2 > /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory" like this guy proposed https://serverfault.com/a/142003/67097 and now I can't spawn any process even while it's 500 mb of free ram < 1630919008 995896 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now I can't even revert it because sudo sh -c "echo 1 >..." emits -bash: fork: Cannot allocate memory < 1630919050 890473 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: so use the kill builtin < 1630919057 633591 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is why kill is a builtin command in bash < 1630919064 994691 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :kill what? < 1630919115 270908 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's the hard part < 1630919128 382343 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : $ ps < 1630919128 429221 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :-bash: fork: Cannot allocate memory < 1630919133 660594 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1630919140 469276 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :might be easier to reboot in practice < 1630919143 294454 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this was just before that < 1630919144 53117 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ free -h < 1630919144 108736 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : total used free shared buff/cache available < 1630919144 126140 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mem: 982Mi 290Mi 382Mi 1.0Mi 308Mi 544Mi < 1630919222 800523 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chromium OS is just broken crap; I guess Google does not care about the scenarios when somethings runs out of memory -- they just stop the machine and spin up a bigger one, and probably expect me to do the same < 1630919231 354940 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :on every single task < 1630919282 11098 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotta switch to ubuntu < 1630919839 259955 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does bash have a `readlink`-capable builtin? I imagine you could make a poor man's ps out of looking at /proc/pid/exe that way. Hmm, apparently not. < 1630919890 515524 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1630920103 454921 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` for p in /proc/[0-9]*/stat; do read -d'\t' pid prog rest <$p; echo $pid $prog; done < 1630920104 578125 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10 (writeback) \ 11 (kcompactd0) \ 12 (crypto) \ 13 (kintegrityd) \ 14 (bioset) \ 15 (kblockd) \ 16 (kworker/0:1) \ 18 (kswapd0) \ 1 (init) \ 2 (kthreadd) \ 3 (ksoftirqd/0) \ 44 (bioset) \ 45 (kworker/0:1H) \ 48 (cat) \ 49 (`) \ 4 (kworker/0:0) \ 50 (`) \ 51 (`) \ 5 (kworker/0:0H) \ 6 (kworker/u2:0) \ 7 (lru-add-drain) \ 8 (kdevtmpfs) \ 9 (oom_reaper) < 1630920115 726437 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like that probably maybe needs no processes. < 1630920202 524380 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1630920292 800579 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630920391 41122 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I think that will still fork, even if not exec < 1630920393 617422 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure < 1630921359 995393 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, well, from https://0x0.st/-wu8.txt I think not. < 1630921493 823262 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interestingly, repeating `readlink /proc/self` on my work laptop increments the resulting number by pretty much exactly 13 for each iteration, which makes me think there's some sort of an extra per-command or per-prompt hook set up somewhere. < 1630921654 706204 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630921656 948847 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: cat /proc/*/forks gives the number of processes/threads created total on the system since boot, I think < 1630921664 570165 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least the user-space ones\ < 1630921700 210046 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can use taht to detect if anything has forked, which is useful to iterate through all processes eg. in /proc and be sure that you haven't missed any, eg. to kill all processes by a user < 1630921705 139922 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, does that count both fork and clone? there are two ways to create processes nowadays < 1630921711 14016 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think Linux doesn't have a spawn in kernel-space) < 1630921712 543267 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, it counts clone < 1630921719 60224 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I checked that once in the kernel source code < 1630921725 400880 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course things may have changed since\ < 1630921731 203764 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me look up the exact name of the file < 1630921880 214353 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a "processes N" field in /proc/stat at least. < 1630922046 376340 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the filename is /proc/stat < 1630922049 749974 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I guess https://0x0.st/-wuT.txt is more direct evidence of not creating new processes. < 1630922053 225692 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you were faster than it took me to look it up < 1630922076 452775 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it was among my emails, but was spoilered so a plain text search didn't find it easily) < 1630922088 66298 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not "forks" < 1630922102 54885 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep < 1630922113 844883 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's a 64-bit counter, so it can't overflow either < 1630922188 96473 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mostly though I think if my computer hangs swapping and can't start a new process, I just reboot it < 1630922188 257900 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :For some reason PIDs that are >= 2^16 just feel weird. < 1630922221 529410 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(possibly reboot with more and more rescue options if it happens right after boot with no chance to interrupt) < 1630922306 466642 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: it feels good, it means we finally managed to shed another piece of historical accident that held us back. there's still a control somewhere in /sys or /proc to limit pids if you don't like it though. < 1630923276 302644 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1630923656 893100 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630924884 296785 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630925101 259226 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630925120 644661 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630925930 746105 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630926937 360722 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1630927611 384738 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1630927782 497275 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630927921 505216 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630929863 926710 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting, 2FA not via SMS but via phone call that you don't need to accept < 1630929873 81408 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you just type the last 4 digits of the number < 1630929893 994223 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so they own 10000 phone numbers just for that < 1630930177 333634 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630932036 190573 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they're just spoofing the number? < 1630932155 338099 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630932297 334391 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1630935719 335651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630936399 586639 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1630936804 333291 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630936922 337800 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1630939230 689462 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"DPI SET to 67 x 34 (wanted 96 x 96)" is what I get when attaching to an xpra session, wonder what's up with that. < 1630939311 216416 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tried to do `--dpi=96` on both `xpra start` on the remote side and `xpra attach` on the local side, but still. < 1630940109 154674 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630940474 894455 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1630940499 252222 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: well duh, it's easy to own a lot of phone numbers if you release a popular app that people will install on their smartphones < 1630940522 471643 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially since many of those people will have their phones always on and will install just about anything < 1630940547 340290 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630940609 582758 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course any other app on the same smartphone that has access to your call logs could spoof that part of the authentication as well < 1630940622 716063 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1630940645 207215 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Client Quit < 1630940715 639685 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't even have to be that same app, it could be another app that's a game with shiny colored balls and fewer ads than usual that they control that gives them the phone numbers < 1630940720 653887 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630940736 767534 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630940753 670579 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630941233 313531 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1630941454 2722 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1630941496 627155 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1630941994 887014 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630942060 227180 :callforjudgement!~ais523@213.205.242.235 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1630942060 705011 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.17 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1630942077 507387 :callforjudgement!~ais523@213.205.242.235 QUIT :Client Quit < 1630942104 642512 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1630943804 198485 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1630945060 477655 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630945071 317138 :chiselfu1e!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse > 1630945899 19947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87926&oldid=85635 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+82) 10 > 1630946567 435852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Heavpoot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87927&oldid=85250 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+111) 10 < 1630947869 739728 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot being a pita is no news < 1630947870 114429 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: and china could not copy usa technology and flaunt it just keeps on growing. am a bit puzzled about why you asked < 1630947904 483615 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: why, I didn’t ask anything (yet?) < 1630947904 805655 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: what is remarkable, i think. mostly common lisp and scheme implementations ( tm)) < 1630947938 862137 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need to write some lispy language sometime, yeah < 1630947955 227259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounded like pure propaganda < 1630947971 660746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fungot, I mean) < 1630947971 893476 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you're suggesting cluttering the namespace with names like fnord and fnord < 1630947991 282861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: okay, no need to get insulting < 1630947991 584291 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: just seems silly to construct a list; it does whatever the code surrounding the ( x y) x y < 1630948029 563725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something far from CL and Scheme, just using S-expressions for its syntax and maybe using symbols, though good symbols might ask their full CL treatment which isn’t easy for a language developer < 1630948052 516233 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're suggesting cluttering the namespace with names like fnord and fnord => lol < 1630948171 865601 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree it’s silly to construct a list; either it’s already there in platonic sense, or it’s nowhere at all, in which case trying to construct it would be in vain < 1630948291 968759 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it’s already there, one needs to just fetch it with (get-list-from-outer-planes ) < 1630948335 976907 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it doesn’t have any names, then I guess we’re broke < 1630948383 321759 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :either it’s already there in platonic sense, or it’s nowhere at all => though I’m unnecessarily classical here. Maybe there is a third option < 1630948744 942809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: "what is a list" has the potential to unfold into all philosophy ever conceived and some new one < 1630948789 573784 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it better do! < 1630948814 525858 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or did < 1630948822 224810 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some point you'll have to make a list of possible interpretations < 1630948828 260993 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just to keep track of it all < 1630948868 497332 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not circular; you can make a list without fully understanding what it is) < 1630948899 276718 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lists usually require infinity; they don't trivially always exist. https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/free%20monoid explains the details. < 1630948972 305233 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Saying "lists require infinity" sounds like saying "natural numbers require infinity". < 1630948989 352532 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Where I think it's maybe more like, the style you use to talk about natural numbers requires infinity, or something. < 1630949041 445146 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Haskell lists are certainly not free monoids (either in the standard sense or in the Haskell sense, where those are also distinct). < 1630949047 270671 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe there's a more grammatical way to put it. FinSet is a topos, so it's not possible to constructively tell whether or not infinite objects really exist; we have to assume them. < 1630949057 26876 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: fortunately we can justify this claim on a ridiculously informal level: Have you ever looked at the number 8 from the side? ;-) < 1630949165 598118 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's well-established that the Peano naturals stop at 88. < 1630949177 571534 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think something like shachaf too. For example, though I don’t know ultrafinitist constructions, we could imagine lists of length more than N fail to exist, so cons or ++ are partial but for some reason we can’t stumble on that fact < 1630949184 110171 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, 88 < 1630949233 641991 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man, "what if sufficiently big numbers don't exist? we'd never know it" is a funny take on ultrafinitism. < 1630949256 702248 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1630949308 718348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'll need imaginary numbers then < 1630949318 967817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that you imagine to exist < 1630949345 295659 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing that makes it funny is that it still takes some platonic notion of existence, and imagines that it applies to some numbers, and not others. I hadn't really thought of that perspective. < 1630949410 777549 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not even being finitist here. It's a variation on Skolem's paradox. In order to talk about existence of objects, we need a formal mathematical logic for those objects. For questions of size/cardinality/measurement, set theory is traditional. But constructive set theory is confined within the rules of topoi, so if a topos lacks some classical property, then the property didn't exist universally in the first place. < 1630949440 473199 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just like with Skolem's paradox, we might have taken some property of Set (say, that there's natural numbers or free monoids) and imagined that it must be universal, even though some topoi like FinSet refute it. < 1630949450 476674 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630949458 769635 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs : that you imagine to exist => hm then we may end up with an existence hierarchy < 1630949464 965046 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was talking about arseniiv's thing. < 1630949476 999187 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, hmm, I can talk about the existence of objects without a formal mathematical logic for those objects. < 1630949516 948150 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. Maths just makes it easy: Every describable object exists, except for those which would contradict themselves if they existed. < 1630949541 849173 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Would you say that existence is a property that some things have and some things don't, or that everything exists? < 1630949575 559950 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd say that "existence" is a linguistic meme, a language-game which has a faulty assumption about the nature of reality. < 1630949631 671553 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there were some logics with two sets of quantifiers, the usual ∀ and ∃ and then “outer” ones which have strange semantics < 1630949660 378082 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, Internal Set Theory? < 1630949695 36613 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a quantified variable in those runs over inexisting things. Don’t remember if it’s connected to IST < 1630949707 711401 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ow, not inexisting things, but all things < 1630949734 898200 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that was for modal logics or free logics, hm < 1630949798 344758 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630949845 377719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"real thought" is a nice oxymoron < 1630949845 512565 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I saw that here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-free/#Meinong < 1630949857 665836 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1630949984 946117 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :once I thought some kind of free logic would be what I wanted an ideal classical logic to be, yet it failed when I read this article: all kinds seem to have their flaws < 1630950052 277483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully a type-theoretical framework is good. At least I haven’t seen someone discussing flaws like those for it to have < 1630950114 654954 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's one of those "there are 15 types of logic, but they all have their flaws. i'm going to develop a new logic that unifies them all" -> "there are 16 types of logic, but they all have their flaws" < 1630950164 381575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it makes for a great story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_narrans < 1630950200 90427 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: The "field with one element" doesn't exist, because of the definition of fields. Nonetheless it has pages on WP and nLab, because there is a field-with-one-element-shaped-hole in projective geometry. < 1630950218 272199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It's well-established that the Peano naturals stop at 88." => I don't think that can satisfy the axioms < 1630950249 146573 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :When combined with the fact that the category of fields is disconnected (fields of different characteristic aren't related to each other), it suggests that fields are an incomplete notion; we have the wrong definition! < 1630950257 635818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that just means that the theory is flawed model of reality < 1630950263 231460 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: yeah I agree it should exist in some fashion < 1630950273 548335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the field F₁, I mean < 1630950337 321591 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a quantified variable in those runs over inexisting things" => is that second order logic? < 1630950368 947682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: oh, third possibility: does Schrödinger's cat exist? < 1630950407 896303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hypothetically speaking, of course ;) < 1630950411 504292 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: no, that one is one-sorted < 1630950473 311623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: unlikely. Schrödinger died in 1961, his cat would have died and decomposed by now unless he got it mummified or put it on a relativistic speed rocket or something < 1630950498 101121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: seems fair < 1630950528 858822 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it, I mean the paradox itself, does in global culture, but as of the cat itself, I’d think decoherence theory gives us a very tight estimate on the time the cat’s still in superposition, like attoseconds I think < 1630950551 122688 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh my poor grammar < 1630950714 266383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I wodner is, if the poison gas is released in the box to kill Schrödinger's cat, wouldn't it also kill whoever opens the box when they open it? < 1630950717 362795 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1630950759 612505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they could be careful and use a chemistry lab smoke hood or something < 1630950766 573842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1630950810 408969 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm what if we call a Schrödinger’s cat any cat which lives in Schrödinger’s children’s homes as an unbreaking line, or a tree. Then this kind of a collective cat is probably still alive < 1630950869 488538 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if his children all disliked cats, then not < 1630952239 422458 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630952338 42561 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1630953748 684595 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure if any cat would be willing to own the family that deliberately killed with 50% probability a previous cat just for a tought experiment < 1630953770 459669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they would certainly just pick a better choice of servent < 1630954182 377340 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1630954265 699206 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630956798 715636 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1630959376 43515 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there good aperiodic 1d tilesets? < 1630959447 373258 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if so, either the matching rules should be quirky, or tiles should at least be nonconnected < 1630959494 844880 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel it might end up not that hard to enforce for example 0 → 01, 1 → 10 blow-up rules < 1630960226 455067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: I don't think aperiodic 1d tilesets are possible < 1630960255 501939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :1d tiles just behave like regular languages < 1630960287 311474 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1630960291 480746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless perhaps it's some weird non-measurable ones, but even so I doubt they can force aperiodic < 1630960312 281974 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can do an aperiodic 1d tiling, but there's no tile set that forces aperiodicity < 1630960327 664965 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::( < 1630960364 314759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :+finite < 1630960366 967507 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how to make a connection with regular languages clearer? < 1630960381 274747 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :each tile is a transition from one state to another < 1630960383 527018 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :finite, yeah, I wouldn’t want an infinite tileset < 1630960383 876330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it's quite literally an NFA < 1630960395 470567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmhmhmhm < 1630960482 998649 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see, even if a tile has many holes and connects with many previous and following tiles, it still would be a finite number of neighborhoods allowed for all of them < 1630960494 464885 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that’s sad < 1630960568 184846 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's interesting < 1630960585 748174 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so for wang tiles to work, the pattern needs height < 1630960592 393661 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that increases without bound < 1630960604 838884 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :any finite height strip would just be equivalent to a 1d tileset < 1630960625 200059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um wait < 1630960646 293782 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah at least this 1d thing gives an insight (if it does) < 1630960712 204543 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if you have two tiles, one is the set of rationals between 0 and sqrt(3), the other the set of all irrationals between 0 and 1? < 1630960722 992577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is the set of rationals between 0 and sqrt(3), the other the set of all rationals between 0 and 1? < 1630960726 478967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1630960729 343793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :argh < 1630960735 998873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is the set of rationals between 0 and sqrt(3), the other the set of all irrationals between 0 and 1? < 1630960766 266814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then you'll have to overlay the two tiles such that the first kind repeats with period sqrt(3), the second with period 1 < 1630960770 715687 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course it's cheating < 1630960785 368916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you should try to explain why that problem can't happen without cheating < 1630960796 802478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait that doesn't work < 1630960802 293546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to be more evil than that < 1630960868 141722 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has to be the set of rational linear combinations of 1 and sqrt(3) between 0 and sqrt(3) half-inclusive, and the set of numbers between 0 and 1 that are linear independent from {1,sqrt(3)} < 1630960894 362874 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630960901 523950 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :well there is the projection trick < 1630960940 448927 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://sig3.ecanews.org/isac2010/lectures/06a_fujita_tilings_a.pdf slide 13 14 < 1630960970 38484 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :you start with a slope of irrational gradiant and project it down < 1630961038 292357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: sure, but in 1D that'll just lead to an aperiodic tiling < 1630961046 667594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not a tileset that forces it < 1630961744 546543 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1630961752 419798 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1630961901 459438 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1630962009 457051 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :can a PDA output an aperiodic string? < 1630962082 643085 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :PDA doesn't output a string, it only accepts or rejects a string < 1630962098 914487 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i seee... < 1630962101 805811 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I suppose you could easily define an output version (pushdown transducer?) < 1630962126 580305 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it has to be context sensitive < 1630962169 850087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: You can stick to natural numbers or integers; for example, if you let X = { n | n >= 0 such that n can be written in base 4 using only digits 0 and 1}, then {X u X+2} = 4X+{0,1,2,3}, so you can tile N, and {X u X-2} = 4X+{-2,-1,0,1} so you can tile Z. Obviously those are aperiodic < 1630962180 45588 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway i think it could output a nonperiodic string < 1630962199 877018 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can use the stack to count so you could do like ABBAAABBBBAAAAABBBBBB < 1630962220 159156 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there is no bound to the stack depth < 1630962274 537279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so infinite tiles are a problem) < 1630962329 662011 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan, oh good point! i was overlooking that completely < 1630962355 619494 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'd have to formalize it to be sure though < 1630962364 454133 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it's not so easy to count because you lose the count as you consume it < 1630962458 307987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the pumping lemma for PDAs means you can always have long stretches of periodic substrings... < 1630962462 591882 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :remember also there is a difference in power between deterministic and nondeterministic PDA (unlike for finite automata or for turing machines) < 1630962475 824298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming it accepts strings of arbitrary length) < 1630962503 730635 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: infinite tiles are a problem for sure, I think using disconnected tiles we could force using them like keegan’s ABBAAABBBB: 1 2 3 4 etc., something like making them each 0, 1, 2, 3, … holes and carefully assigning distances < 1630962535 872990 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fwiw i wasn't paying attention to the earlier tiling discussion) < 1630962557 952470 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was about if I can make a finite 1d nonperiodic tileset < 1630962564 943287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: what I have is similar in spirit, really; I just find it cute to make it work with a single tile (though that means you have to keep track of the positioning of the tile for "aperiodicity") < 1630962617 167258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but to my mind that makes sense: there's no placement of tiles that is repeated periodically) < 1630962617 375521 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think I saw that tile somewhere, even, if I infer its construction right (I skimmed what you wrote) < 1630962635 874177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: it's reminiscent of the cantor set < 1630962783 103210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: something like p-adically? Oh I guess I should just read in < 1630962939 917527 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix (\x -> 'X':tail (x >>= \c -> [c,c,'.','.'])) < 1630962941 577557 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "XX..XX..........XX..XX..........................................XX..XX........ < 1630962977 16107 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm wait why use 4 but not 3? < 1630963081 931105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with digits 0 and 1? that would leave a gap of size 1 near the beginning: XX.XX.... etc. < 1630963086 47887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and nothing to fill it < 1630963110 556549 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see, we can’t use just 1 < 1630963126 180971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and using digits 0 and 2 confuses me, but I imagine it still doesn't work < 1630963219 254375 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean we can take X.X...X.X.........X.X...X.X[...] and shift it by one, and that will result in XXXX..XXXX........XXXX..XXXX[...] and now we have chunks of length 4 and some gaps of length 2 < 1630963231 482096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in contrast, base 4 just works < 1630963265 283218 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :-X- -X- --- --- -X- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -X- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- <- with 1 in ternary < 1630963294 963156 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah 4 with 0 and 1 looks more comfortable < 1630963299 598425 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically by virtue of {0,1,2,3} = {0,1}+{0,2}, where {0,1} are used as digits for the tiles and {0,2} as offsets for shifting the tiles < 1630963351 926793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, for covering the integers, {-2,-1,0,1} = {0,1}+{-2,0} < 1630963413 322866 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how I like simple solutions < 1630963656 699538 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hah, how about this abstraction as an exercise: "Find a subset X of N={0,1,...} such that the map (x,y) |-> x+2y is a bijection between XxX and N." < 1630963785 58108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The X from above is the only solution.) < 1630963927 208492 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :would that just be the odd numbers? < 1630963949 9722 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-230-207.bredband.tele2.se JOIN #esolangs olsner :Got ZNC? < 1630963978 621727 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: sure, with infinite tiles it's easy. you can make one huge infinite tile with tiny holes far from each other, where the holes are randomly 2 or 3 long, plus small 2 and 3 long tiles to fill one of those holes, and that's aperiodic too. < 1630963996 278820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: no, then you don't get any even numbers as results... but also plenty of duplicates < 1630964029 731987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can make that work with just two tiles in fact, no need for different sizes of holes, just place the holes randomly < 1630964033 501287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: your tiles are effectively infinite too, by virtue of incommunserability < 1630964082 333728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right. but as I said, I found the task of making a single tile work interesting < 1630964099 769880 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630964100 556208 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :difficult problem :O < 1630964141 615500 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630964205 146608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: well, 0 needs to be in X (otherwise you don't get 0 as a sum)... 1 needs to be in X (otherwise you don't get 1). 2 can't be in the set (because otherwise we'd get 2+2*0 = 0+2*1... and it basically continues like that. < 1630964246 987997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: at some point you'll switch to binary representation.... and look at every second digit... and that's how you get to base 4. < 1630964269 90022 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is so cool, it's like a sudoku or something < 1630964297 106392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's doable, but it does require some technique and persistence. < 1630964756 619839 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin < 1630965768 44411 :tech_exorcist_!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Quit: see you tomorrow < 1630967093 499026 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630967132 585167 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1630968133 657794 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630969735 400493 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630969768 370529 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1630973232 413729 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1630978034 522378 :zgrep!~zgrep@user/zgrep PART #esolangs :I'm in too many channels. < 1630982945 268809 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi there < 1630982957 196119 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Evening. < 1630983007 440648 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :How's it going < 1630983009 614197 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I recently wrote some code that compiles a Turing machine to cyclic tag https://github.com/esopsis/Turing-Machine-to-Cyclic-Tag < 1630983019 650297 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I put a link to it on the cyclic tag esolang page also < 1630983029 751917 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just thought this might be a place to share that :-) < 1630983174 31272 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By the way I also found a powerpoint presentation online about a person compiling lambda calculus to a Turing machine. I contacted the researcher and he says he's working on a paper to publish about that www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/limits%20to%20computability/SKI%20combinators%20(really)%20are%20%20Turing%20complete.pptx < 1630983196 327962 :xylochoron[m]!~xylochoro@2001:470:69fc:105::e2e1 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/lambda/combinators/, s/calculus// < 1630984939 139999 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good times. < 1630985369 635588 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you also already building some machine here with these series of substitutions lol 05:53:16 s/lambda/combinators/, s/calculus// < 1630985498 126006 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't see pptx, he might want to convert it to pdf for sharing < 1630985540 761482 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I probably can open pptx with Keynote but it would be handier to read in browser < 1630985979 316971 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1630986198 601986 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ben Lynn's notes might be interesting: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/compiler/lambda.html < 1630987220 17195 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I miss Google Codesearch -- github can't regexes ( < 1630988240 656926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : oh my poor grammar <-- that grammar looked fine to me hth < 1630989408 382501 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630989416 767959 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki < 1630989675 600109 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630989675 755144 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630989688 710506 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com JOIN #esolangs * :beehive < 1630989715 391068 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy JOIN #esolangs mcfrdy :mcfrdy < 1630990371 689259 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1630990634 437921 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990634 437965 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990634 485455 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990634 567878 :faxlore!sid505520@highgate.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990634 594739 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990634 793739 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1630990642 861561 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs * :citrons < 1630990648 855139 :faxlore!sid505520@id-505520.highgate.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs faxlore :faxlore < 1630990703 51723 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal < 1630990720 573190 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :( < 1630990830 987292 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort < 1630990868 887123 :slavfox!~slavfox@ipv4-93-158-232-111.net.internetunion.pl JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1630991091 870323 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630992435 725144 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630992462 855267 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630992529 149203 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630993037 725669 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630993040 754185 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630993450 210609 :chiselfu1e!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1630994086 785801 :phdu[m]!~phdumatri@2001:470:69fc:105::e6b6 NICK :phdu < 1630994537 386288 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630994596 441056 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630994837 918329 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630994872 493065 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630995776 609728 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1630995821 404081 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: nice problem < 1630996761 290317 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630996766 941359 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630997061 505521 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630997062 381138 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630997361 739849 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630997368 633911 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630998536 276963 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Google Cloud does not believe in swap" confirmed: https://stackoverflow.com/q/58210222/322020 < 1630998657 491328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( vm.swappiness = 0 ) < 1630998669 272891 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good, swap is mostly a bad idea for a server. < 1630998696 523076 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :much better when he just hangs until reboot < 1630998754 806817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :VMs doing their own swapping is a bit insane, when there's more swapping happening at the hypervisor level < 1630998809 933650 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure we know how Google Cloud hypervisor works < 1630998871 399382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even on my PC I'd like to fully disable swap. But I've learned that Linux effectively swaps anyway, because it will release unmodified mmap-ed regions to satisfy requests for fresh memory. So... without swap... rather than being able to swap out more or less everything, you end up swapping out code pages. This is *worse* than actually having a bit of swap space. < 1630998897 503216 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose your PC has more RAM than a Free Tier server < 1630998913 900291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I compromised on 8G swap for 32G swap. < 1630998922 74203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for 32G main memory. < 1630998924 729837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, yes it does. < 1630998981 498933 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ping < 1630998981 717558 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :pong < 1630999028 394446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I understand the desire for enabling swap on small VMs. I was arguing from a perspective of performance. < 1630999224 284170 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630999227 85904 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1630999261 979132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually have a hack somewhere that hooks into mmap and replaces anonymous mappings by file-based mappings. < 1630999267 663440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So yes, I can definitely relate. < 1630999524 564067 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1630999851 650256 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631000055 16629 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can mlock memory that you care about, I suppose. < 1631000072 790353 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a good point about Linux releasing code pages, though, hmm. < 1631000122 371002 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It just treats it as ordinary page cache memory, even when you fully disable overcommit and swap? That seems bad. < 1631000137 206142 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's hard for it to do anything else. < 1631000277 939570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never done the experiment of disabling overcommit as well. For a long time I couldn't because of Haskell's RTS, but it may work these days? It still allocates a huge address space... < 1631000729 193863 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's possible to reserve address space without committing it in Linux, but hardly anyone does it. < 1631000748 996331 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it's pretty unusual so I don't think you can e.g. ask how much memory a process has committed. < 1631000790 422240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rts/posix/OSMem.c:# define RESERVE_FLAGS MAP_NORESERVE | MAP_ANON | MAP_PRIVATE; < 1631000801 797717 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :google indexes esolang wiki by ip for some reason https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A46.43.2.108 < 1631000994 707030 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1631001076 925029 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631001094 187183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So ghc has been doing that since ghc-8.0... patch is from 2015. Still fairly recent. < 1631001116 717965 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 JOIN #esolangs tech_exorcist :he/him < 1631001174 924068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: yes, and also site:techne.zem.fi < 1631001223 257423 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Techne (Greek: τέχνη, tékhnē, 'craft, art'; Ancient Greek: [tékʰnɛː], Modern Greek: [ˈtexni] (About this soundlisten)) is a term in philosophy that refers to making or doing. < 1631001293 686646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one way google might discover such links is via the channel logs... we had trouble updating the esolangs.org domain at some point so more direct methods to access the wiki were mentioned. < 1631001379 267654 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose you can disable this index either via robots.txt or via google web search panel when you own the domain < 1631001384 689310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether google actively scans the IPv4 space for webservers... they definitely have the resources to do it; the question is whether they see any value in doing so. < 1631001397 519373 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember the exact name of those services < 1631001678 535919 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there any wiki bot here? < 1631001682 548039 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean wikipedia < 1631001718 62547 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(though there may be an option to query any wiki) < 1631001958 620215 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631002152 616856 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631002573 313235 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:3c81:60b6:4f21:77d2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631003003 500047 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :Usually you need a host header anyway to access a website, even if you have an IP address. < 1631003265 279325 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any bots here who remember the context? so you could issue a command to process some previous message < 1631003274 584174 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631003418 591180 :tech_exorcist!~tech_exor@user/tech-exorcist/x-0447479 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631003545 555470 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631004087 60401 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Quit: [TLS] Client upgrade < 1631004104 409980 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1631004633 521531 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Quit: Boot tut gut™ < 1631005297 862153 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631005615 822028 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631005741 389676 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631005763 688798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631006348 570514 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631008209 615403 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631008509 606490 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631009574 585835 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :HackEso (well, HackEgo) used to have access to channel logs, so you could do that sort of thing through there, but it got lost during some reshuffling (they're not logically same systems any more). Sort of a shame; some of the things you could do were clever enough. Though it also encouraged "brute-force" solutions that just run a grep over the last two decades of history, which was always pretty < 1631009576 330559 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :slow. < 1631009729 982931 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`seen logs < 1631009731 194155 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ls: cannot access '/var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt': No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen logs ever < 1631009796 53872 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, that one does (did?) a "most recent 30 files" by default to be a little faster about it. < 1631009948 305203 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was planning to "fix" the logs access thing by just having some sort of an API at logs.esolangs.org and poking a hole for that for HackEso, but haven't gotten around to. Maybe I should as a first step do something smaller. The logs server's already got an in-memory queue of the last 1000 events for stalker mode purposes, it could just expose that as a "recent context" endpoint. < 1631009994 274577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( touch /var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt ) < 1631010017 323102 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably a bad idea; the error message is a reminder that it's not working :) < 1631010017 706940 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`touch /var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt < 1631010019 210037 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :touch: cannot touch '/var/irclogs/_esoteric/0000-00-00.txt': No such file or directory < 1631010150 314909 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not necessary all the logs, but bot could remember just last 100/1000 messages rotated < 1631010189 240669 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in ram < 1631010213 456736 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Granted, doing it through logs.esolangs.org would still have a bit of a race-condition-y feel since they'd be channel logs as seen by different IRC clients. But I think multibot won't make it particularly easy to do that "locally". < 1631010447 775667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :they were different clients last time too, i think < 1631010477 486680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, different nicks < 1631010485 339521 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably, yeah. < 1631010930 432902 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I don't even have the umlbox-mudem thing wired up for the weird custom multiplexing of TCP and Unix domain sockets over a "serial port" it does. < 1631011058 891719 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1631012367 809226 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later > 1631014080 640014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ight14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87928&oldid=86667 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+185) 10Light interpreters > 1631014157 247947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87929&oldid=73972 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+123) 10! < 1631014912 612686 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631016582 612535 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631019256 825644 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq it chapter "What is swappiness and how do I change it?" it says that servers have this option set higher meaning to push memory to swap more < 1631020548 258972 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :On the topic of esolangs.org appearing under other names, yeah, I've configured the server to "default" to the site with the wiki on it for any host header it doesn't recognize, and never looked into search consequences. Wonder if I could convince MediaWiki to do rel=canonical or a sitemap. Wikipedia does that as a tag on the page, so. < 1631020579 650955 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turning on $wgEnableCanonicalServerLink should do it. < 1631020609 463209 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's probably a good idea < 1631020703 625729 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631020838 313322 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ curl -s http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge | grep 'rel="canonical"' < 1631020840 336752 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs : < 1631020842 827098 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe that'll help. < 1631020962 927320 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. although for pages with long names, I'll still keep using the article number like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=13784 , who cares what the canonical says\ < 1631020964 443491 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` curl -s http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge | grep 'rel="canonical"' < 1631020968 669850 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch < 1631021224 565986 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1631021334 251005 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1243 < 1631021335 169878 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1243.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1631021768 8609 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot get https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=13784 //link[@rel="canonical"]/@href < 1631021768 923714 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_a_formal_language,_which_comprises_a_set_of_instructions_that_produce_various_kinds_of_output. < 1631021774 6039 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ^ < 1631021834 52784 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot get http://techne.zem.fi/wiki/Befunge //link[@rel="canonical"]/@href < 1631021835 167782 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge < 1631022447 132634 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1631022473 627619 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631024554 397944 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is it just me or does this website have property 3 wrong? https://www.web-formulas.com/Math_Formulas/Linear_Algebra_Properties_of_Inverse_Matrices.aspx < 1631024746 255838 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: um, what are the assumptions here? are the matrix elements from a field? property 3 says "If A has an inverse matrix, then there is only one inverse matrix." which sounds right to me, at least over a field < 1631024772 883611 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: That's the seventh longest page title we have. The longest is: Unary_Except_Every_Zero_Is_Replaced_with_the_Title_of_This_Programming_Language_or,_Alternately,_Is_Replaced_with_the_Smallest_Counter-Example_to_the_Goldbach_Conjecture._Compilers_and_Interpreters_Only_Have_to_Implement_the_Former_Option < 1631024773 90731 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(probably still true without, but I can't swear on it) < 1631024796 528247 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yeah, but that one also keeps changing. I know there are redirects, but still. < 1631024888 335100 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's longer than Real Fast Nora at least < 1631024900 881191 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh I miscounted < 1631024912 931935 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant this line, which is step 3 (not property 3): "3. If A1 and A2 have inverses, then A1 A2 has an inverse and (A1 A2)-1 = A1-1 A2-1 < 1631024913 47564 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :" < 1631024921 407900 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :*statement 3 < 1631024996 764576 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, pretty sure that should be (A1 A2)^-1 = A2^-1 A1^-1. < 1631025003 766213 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: yes, that sounds wrong. it even says the right statement earlier: "If A and B are nonsingular matrices, then AB is nonsingular and (AB)^(-1) = B^(-1) A^(-1)" < 1631025220 172613 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trying to leave feedback < 1631025221 111222 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Value cannot be null. Parameter name: Challenge < 1631025224 255656 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see a captcha < 1631025300 76977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're using Recaptcha, but the URL for it is 404ing < 1631025357 864299 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I... could hack the correct Recaptcha URL in place < 1631025380 672118 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: nah, they're probably using a library for Recaptcha that Google has obsoleted twice since < 1631025681 985864 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631027524 326764 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1631027624 710649 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631028569 922611 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631029475 820127 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631029501 50816 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631032217 995195 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I have a translation-rotation matrix that needs to be multiplied on the right, is there a way to turn it into a matrix that can be multiplied on the left? < 1631033802 742326 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas can you ddos with perlbot? < 1631033842 720612 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is that a special command? I see it also apploes xpath < 1631034774 527378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: it's not special, you can call it multiple times together, but only in series < 1631034798 107530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there's a time limit for how long each of your commands will execute < 1631034816 678512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's probably not a very efficient way to DDOS anything < 1631034864 113062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could try to loop it by calling a command on its own web interface, in a quine way < 1631034927 979468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that probably requires POST, which this doesn't do < 1631034943 276513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it would be more efficient if you just make a webpage that people load and some javascript or frames on it send requests < 1631034949 131106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even images, fewer people block those < 1631035070 505466 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149 < 1631035467 776637 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1631037091 312092 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631039861 974081 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631040765 559718 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Quit: quit < 1631040809 58764 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631040871 640995 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631040872 831866 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631040887 647120 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631040892 28271 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631040936 646099 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631040974 54604 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631041053 639910 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631041231 179272 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631042144 907090 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bit of a random question, but does anyone have a gut feeling as to what sort of indoors range you should expect from a BLE device? Like that nRF52840 SoC or something? I've been speculating about a wireless doohickey, and wondering if it should be that, or wifi, or some other kind of radio. < 1631042795 941058 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631043187 848635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, but indoor range for microwave stuff might depend on what your walls are made of < 1631043245 439231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my bluetooth headphones could communicate from the living room to the work room, but I'v no idea if that involves BLE or just other Bluetooth < 1631043288 904315 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. The interior walls are just drywall-style materials, but there's also a bunch of kitchen appliances between where I'd most logically put two endpoints of a connection. < 1631043303 643510 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631043343 19929 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I read somewhere that BLE doesn't include audio... although a quick search suggests there's now an announced "Bluetooth LE Audio" standard as well. < 1631043345 910973 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :here in this apartment the walls are real reinforced concrete, but the waves might have chosen to go through the walls < 1631043367 24858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/through the walls/through the doors/ < 1631043390 829098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably not BLE in that case < 1631043449 557038 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's apparently some sort of a long-range mode in Bluetooth 5 that does forward error correction and trades some power use (in the sense of lower data rate -> longer transmissions) to better range. < 1631043512 808183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does forward error connection mean? don't all these wireless protocols use some error connection? but I don't know what "forward" means here < 1631043638 509137 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I got it right, all flavours of Bluetooth except this new-in-5 "LE Coded" encoding only do error *detection* (and retransmissions), not error *correction*. < 1631043650 180812 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.bluetooth.com/blog/exploring-bluetooth-5-going-the-distance/ "Bluetooth low energy at version 4 does not perform error correction, only error detection. Bluetooth 5 introduces an error correction capability." < 1631044088 759851 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631044298 984337 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently "forward" error correction refers to the fact that it only uses the forward channel and not a reverse channel (requesting resends) < 1631044817 693007 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631045107 317921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-154.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631045207 804879 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631045503 557610 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631045510 692738 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631046104 988270 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas < 1631046302 964787 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631048049 869675 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1631048170 538773 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1631048170 932389 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1631049407 945932 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631050298 568334 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631050681 731046 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631051833 739775 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631051833 857003 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631051833 970451 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631051840 643075 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631052790 556362 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631054279 926659 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631055957 920286 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631056380 817795 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631056791 632931 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631056853 638305 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631057163 763973 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631058037 586420 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1631058052 836711 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631058137 589314 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 QUIT :Client Quit < 1631058152 555656 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631059386 291287 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1631059504 398809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87930&oldid=87578 5* 03Oshaboy 5* (+27) 10Added Unimplemented Tag < 1631061568 927533 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631062929 598747 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this 2015 article https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeoid says that it's kind of fungeoid's goal to have side-effects < 1631063104 97773 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't funge-98 stack of stacks going the opposite direction? < 1631063142 956447 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also threading with a separate stack < 1631063185 213252 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and my idea of having nested isolated funge spaces < 1631063237 481281 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I don't agree with the "Goal" section < 1631063245 727268 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless I'm missing something < 1631063648 779784 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one (maybe the only/) motivating idea of the original Befunge was to be as difficult as possible to compile < 1631063684 221946 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :with having a runtime allowing to split code into isolated toroids and giving them own stack (for example, it pops the N number of items to take from the top of the stack into a new zeroed one and then returns M from the new one to the parent) < 1631063692 544604 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like the stack stack (which was added later) seem like they would make the code easier to analyse, and thus maybe to compile, but you can use it for obfuscation in addition to using it for purity < 1631063731 91818 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be possible to build a repository of common functions that won't have stack collisions with each other and would be used as building blocks easily < 1631063758 461170 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there's two points of view, the point of view of a programmer who is trying to make their code easy to understand and is using the language features for that purpose < 1631063785 91249 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the point of view of a compiler, or a programmer who is intentionally making their code hard to compile, where the features might be used in unusual ways to make the code hard to understand < 1631063805 876673 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :to necessary easy to understand but easy to build < 1631063826 296038 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm ok with write-only code as long as it does what it have to < 1631063865 6042 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think write-only code only really works in environments where you know you'll never have to read it again < 1631063902 944662 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one-off scripts, for example (and even then I try to do things like use meaningful variable names, just in case they somehow end up not being one-off after all) < 1631064416 959350 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I disagreed, saying that there are some languages out there where and interpreter is easier to write than a compiler." < 1631064424 266519 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/master/historic/bef-1.0rc1/bef.doc < 1631064517 874468 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it was a random fact about befunge -- that it had features hard to compile, but it wasn't the goal; the goal was: "It may go forward, or backward, or even LEFT OR RIGHT. : for fun < 1631064565 448903 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so it looks like the motivating feature was to be harder to compile than interpret, not necessarily to be impossible to compile < 1631064572 692542 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also this https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/8fe4065c0415b6f6fa6f699798fa9b64737aadc1/historic/bef-1.0rc1/bef.doc#L27 tells that the self-modification was much earlier than the debate about compilers with his friend < 1631064584 268466 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some programming languages which fulfil this requirement by being trivially easy to interpret < 1631064606 325963 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there were other motivations too < 1631064715 637051 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would call the complexity to compile befunge a goal if there was that debate and then he comes up with things made on purpose to prove his debate point; but it was the opposite -- he already had an idea of self-modification and then the debate just motivated him to release something < 1631064864 842124 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interestingly, Futamura conclusively showed that compilers arise from specialized interpreters, and their work implies that an interpreter is always easier than a compiler. < 1631064898 563994 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think that interpreters are generally easier, except in the case where a naive transpilation works < 1631064921 9719 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(e.g. compiling BF by string replacement of "+" into "(*ptr)++", ">" into "++ptr", etc.) < 1631064945 379449 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I'm using my post- and pre-increments inconsistently, I guess it doesn't matter in this situation but it still looks bad < 1631064946 764307 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw I don't see a problem compiling befunge if you create a 80x25 of pointers to void functions that would occasionally overwrite other pointers to point at the "library of function" that is a list of possible instructions < 1631065004 62365 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this depends on what you consider a compiler to be < 1631065015 524540 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can compile any code by hardcoding the program into an interpreter < 1631065024 520089 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: But note that, in that case, we can kind of reverse-engineer ourselves a corresponding interpreter which is even "easier" in the sense that it can delegate even more work to the C compiler. < 1631065026 95821 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but some people consider that cheating and not really a compiler < 1631065068 868071 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: well, running gcc is probably harder than writing the code you want it to compile into a file < 1631065072 296773 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, both are pretty easy < 1631065106 715416 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm thinking specifically of what's delegated to the toolchain, because Futamura's point was that a good specializer can turn any interpreter into a good compiler. < 1631065126 7650 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, not the best way to put it. The specializer and interpreter both contribute to the quality of the compiler? < 1631065137 510555 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the specializer would have to be /incredibly/ good < 1631065161 862706 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :given that there are optimizations that interpreters can't really do without getting halfway to being a compiler anyway, so given a naive interpreter, those optimizations would have to be done in the specializer < 1631065173 862185 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and, I know that's the point of specializers, but it's hard to imagine one that's *that* good < 1631065191 48444 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I use RPython, for example, and there's a lot of work put into making those interpreters "easy" to write. < 1631065293 46790 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can apply the same argument to a specializer-virtual machine combination < 1631065299 238634 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which should in theory give you an optimizing VM < 1631065304 751793 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(RPython automatically generates a JIT compiler for a given interpreter. Backend configuration, instruction selection, memory management, etc. are all done with automatic codegen. It takes like 20min to generate a JIT but it's worth the wait.) < 1631065355 515347 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I think that this is an interesting antipattern in language design: We often pair a low-level intermediate language with a high-level user-friendly language, and require interpreters to compile from the latter to the former. < 1631065357 435702 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's interesting < 1631065364 761899 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are the interpreters specified? < 1631065409 76193 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, I'm not sure that's an antipattern, unless you're suggesting that the interpreters should work with high-level code more directly < 1631065420 909698 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPython interpreters are given in plain Python 2.7, using their support library for libc calls and FFI. The translator interprets the Python and then disassembles it in-memory, so codegen can be done in Python. < 1631065447 274415 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering about that (although being locked to Python 2 is something of a problem nowadays) < 1631065480 763574 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just think that it's signing folks up for extra work. Extra context, usually. Desugaring is simpler than an intermediate language. < 1631065488 145621 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the measure of cheating can be calculated; my compiler idea above results in that the compiled programs would be different only in a place where the starting befunge code was injected as a 80x25 table, and the rest would be the same "interpreter"; while the "true compiler" that you might want to imagine is something that produces absolutely < 1631065488 197337 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :different program for every different input source code; so the amount of "variation" can be benchmarked on compiling different inputs and measuring the diff < 1631065569 840148 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I agree with making the low-level intermediate language a subset of the high-level language, rather than necessarily a separate language < 1631065592 822150 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are some cases where you want to relax restrictions in the downcompile < 1631065623 340865 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then, there are compilers that produce 1mb binary even for hello world -- all the hello worlds will have the same 99% of "interpreter" that is some static library < 1631065627 584617 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a common example is when the IR has goto statements, but the high-level language you're compiling from doesn't < 1631065654 499959 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. I guess I'm saying that, in those situations, the IR should be explicit and narrow-waisted, rather than a required glue language. Like, Smalltalks put a tiny but real burden on implementations when they require bytecode compilers, e.g. in Python. < 1631065659 356907 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: right < 1631065675 817323 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, ld-linux.so is even described as an "interpreter" in its documentation, and that of the Linux executable format < 1631065691 535367 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :LLVM IR, GCC's GIMPLE, QBE, and libfirm's IR; they should all really commit to text formats and narrow-waist tools. This is one area where WebAssembly has done well. < 1631065713 118873 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so pretty much all binaries on Linux are being run through an interpreter (although what it actually does is just interpret the code for loading, load the code, then jump to it and run it directly) < 1631065847 827126 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is a "narrow-waist tool" < 1631065924 608354 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I spent so many years being confused about what "waist" means before I realized the garment waist and the anatomical waist can be totally different!) < 1631065932 412505 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to ask the same question, too < 1631065939 449489 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection < 1631065947 153720 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: A narrow-waisted design is a pattern which is meant to counter the Expression Problem by requiring either the input or output of every tool in a toolchain to be a single unified format. < 1631065954 586346 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631065972 91886 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing that I do think is an antipattern is where important metadata, that the compiler knows, gets removed when going down to lower levels of abstraction < 1631066000 769217 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: oh, like netpnm? < 1631066007 177767 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one example is that it would be very useful to have a way to say "the value in this register isn't needed any more" right down to at least the asm level < 1631066007 403639 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. pandoc can handle many different documentation formats. Normally this would evoke the Expression Problem and require a quadratic amount of code, but instead it's a linear amount of code because pandoc's IR acts as a narrow waist. < 1631066015 987637 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION nods < 1631066026 769953 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :where you convert anything-to-pnm or pnm-to-anything or manipulate pnm's < 1631066031 37952 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it even sometimes helps performance at the *machine code* level, despite taking up bytes, because this is information that the processor cares about too < 1631066039 25575 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: Yeah. Uncompressed containers are good candidates for narrow waists. < 1631066052 63378 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or how many programming languages adopt UTF-8 as the one true internal string representation < 1631066058 83243 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :with other encodings handled at the edges < 1631066064 858405 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes. I'm sure you've heard me rant about The Mill before; their "belt" concept would be great for that. < 1631066075 290745 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Unicode was designed with this use case in mind, and would be substantially simpler without it) < 1631066090 793108 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is why we have assembly language commands like VZEROUPPER, and certain special cases of XOR < 1631066117 131998 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: I do like The Mill's approach, although it got me thinking about how I would do things and I came to different conclusions on some things < 1631066130 466403 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The Mill's belt is just the most recent eight results from the ALU. By default, values are usable for a few operations and then disappear forever.) < 1631066134 21079 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. I think it would be more useful to flip the belt the other way round: commands say when their output is going to be used, not when it was generated < 1631066152 298150 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I didn't realise it was as short as 8, I was assuming it would be much longer < 1631066187 479896 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think farbfeld is better than pnm, although it is the same kind of idea it is a good one. Fortunately, ImageMagick now supports both formats (and my own Farbfeld Utilities also has encoders/decoders for netpnm formats, too). < 1631066251 365578 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: widely-applicable intermediate representations are something we could do with having in a range of fields (and if they're easily interconvertible it probably also doesn't matter if we have too many) < 1631066260 227740 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I think it's eight minimum? ISTR Ivan saying that belt space is very expensive because it's interconnected to so many functional units, so maybe sixteen-ish on high-end chips. < 1631066316 810048 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: so the great thing about a "when it's going to be used"-style belt is that the interconnect isn't too bad, because you can safely use a slow path if the value you see there is some high number of instructions < 1631066318 875738 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, although there's still a linear cost to maintaining each representation. I know that I will have to compile a few simple languages into Cammy for demonstration purposes, but I won't maintain optimizing compilers because there's usually no interesting source programs to optimize. < 1631066330 619291 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and only need to fast-path the low-numbered choices < 1631066340 949601 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's information you get to know whether you need a fast algorithm or can do with a slow one < 1631066356 285060 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is Cammy? < 1631066362 428073 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike UTF-8 (or any Unicode format, or any other encoding) as the one true internal string representation. I think having byte strings is better, and you can still have functions that treat them as UTF-8 if wanted, as well as ones dealing with byte strings. (Converting between text encodings perfectly isn't possible, even though they try to say otherwise.) I dislike many modern programming languages that use Unicode. < 1631066378 838648 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha, that's clever. Makes sense. Strange how time reversal sometimes dramatically changes what needs to be tracked. < 1631066417 321416 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, [[Cammy]] on the wiki, just my current pet project. It's not yet Turing-complete, because I'm lazy and also Turing categories are hard. < 1631066427 888934 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I believe that it's normally correct to have "bytestring" and "character string" as the two main string types internally < 1631066449 734910 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that with a character string, it's generally preferable for the internal encoding to not be user-visible, although UTF-8 makes for a good choice < 1631066467 206770 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38 I'll take you to my team of creators of a "cleaner unicode" < 1631066513 272617 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I dislike about UTF-8 is that it spends a lot of encoding space to get some fairly minor advantages < 1631066514 755051 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Having separate types is better, yes, although there are often the deficiencies that many things will not work properly with byte strings, I find < 1631066527 848922 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC there are six byte values that can't legally appear in UTF-8 at all < 1631066582 341616 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, I think even better would be to have typed byte streams that were parameterised by encoding, and probably the ability to parameterise character strings by encoding too < 1631066613 434279 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(where "encoding" here would handle things like the form of escaping that had been used, what metadata beyond normal characters it could contain, etc.) < 1631066637 196816 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, yes, I suppose that can be helpful. < 1631066715 502629 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, it will not always be relevant, sometimes it is helpful to be able to use such a feature (as an option, perhaps).) < 1631066723 209623 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I would like to see more languages provide is a standardised type for formatted text < 1631066726 88506 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ irb < 1631066726 166974 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :irb(main):001:0> "лол".encoding < 1631066726 166999 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :=> # < 1631066726 167008 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :irb(main):002:0> "лол".b.encoding < 1631066726 197773 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :=> # < 1631066746 883056 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems wrong? < 1631066795 866265 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would say that the /first/ one is a character string, and the /second/ one is the UTF-8 encoding of a character string < 1631066807 515503 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :String instances in Ruby are a struct of byte sequence on an encoding info to help other functions preprocess the sequence when needed < 1631066830 369891 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*and an < 1631066851 806235 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or if it genuinely is an 8-bit extended ASCII, perhaps ISO 8859-5, but that seems unlikely < 1631066869 302058 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even when it is UTF-8, there are considerations what will be wanted. Sometimes you will want to store unpaired surrogates (which is WTF-8), sometimes you might want characters beyond Unicode range (UTF-8-E, etc), sometimes you might want null characters, and sometimes you might not want these things, depending on the application. < 1631066873 28072 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: in that case I think it's wrong < 1631066890 717673 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you hand a function a string, it shouldn't have to decode it itself whenever it wants to do anything with it < 1631066930 839673 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :> "лол".b < 1631066930 874366 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :=> "\xD0\xBB\xD0\xBE\xD0\xBB" < 1631066932 840041 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : error: < 1631066932 908448 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : • Couldn't match expected type ‘b0 -> c’ with actual type ‘[Char]’ < 1631066932 926102 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : • In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘"лол"’ < 1631066933 731527 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: it'd be nice to have a standardised name for "UTF-8 except NUL is encoded as C0 A0" < 1631066962 414095 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :String#b here is a method that just changes the encoding attribute, it does not change the data < 1631066973 190385 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, I agree < 1631066992 154505 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this string for example becomes printed in wrong way because ascii can't do that < 1631067024 335941 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess what Ruby's doing is a leaky abstraction < 1631067046 703357 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's wrong with it? < 1631067075 261241 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :those japanese folks defeated unicode problems 15 years before python < 1631067110 600139 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another encoding is TRON, although it is uncommon and has a different set of problems < 1631067145 262265 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I think is that no character encoding will be good for all purposes, although they can be good for some things (although still, improvements can be possible, sometimes) < 1631067147 88861 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the problem is that it's using the same type for bytestring and character string, *and* has a way to look at the internal representation of a character string when that shouldn't matter < 1631067168 3054 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't enforce that the bytes stored in a string actually match the given encoding < 1631067191 323294 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :all data are 0 and 1 < 1631067192 909505 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl also solved this problem substantially before Python did, and I don't think its solution is perfect, but I prefer it to Ruby's < 1631067201 214243 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does not matter how many types you declare < 1631067206 889980 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but that doesn't mean you have to present it to the user as 0 and 1 < 1631067239 558232 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and sometimes, semantically there will be a requirement not to have 0s and 1s in particular places, and it's an advantage if the language can enforce that rather than making the user do it < 1631067261 261231 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ruby has only a String and you are free to change the encoding at any moment, just know what you are doing or you'll get an exception unless you pass the flags of ignore/replace explicitely < 1631067289 725866 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, Perl's solution is that a string is conceptually an array of numbers, which could represent either codepoints or raw bytes, and for string-related functions you can specify what interpretation to use < 1631067306 692030 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when you get the data from network for example it's ASCII by default and the internet really has no idea what encoding is -- it's your application job to say "here we expect this encoding" so you apply it < 1631067322 319327 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :internally, strings that contain values above 255 are stored in a slightly extended UTF-8, and strings that don't are sometimes stored just as raw bytes, but you're not supposed to know or care about that detail < 1631067345 470200 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: and if the string isn't valid for its claimed encoding? < 1631067410 651957 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Rust, there's &[u8] (byte slice) and &str (string slice – internally UTF-8 encoded); there's a fast-path function to reinterpret a &[u8] as a &str, but it still checks to make sure that the string is valid UTF-8 and refuses to produce output if it isn't (producing an error you have to handle, instead) < 1631067441 555256 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course, if the byte slice isn't supposed to be UTF-8 you can still translate it to a string but there isn't a fast-path for that, as it'd need to be re-encoded into the internal UTF-8 representaiton < 1631067483 629863 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :&str does leak its UTF-8-ness in a few other ways, though, such as measuring length in bytes of UTF-8 for the purpose of taking substrings (I think this is a concession to performance) < 1631067494 408303 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 the invalidity is a thing that exists only when you are doing some final rendering, like printing or converting between the passed enc_a and enc_b; in those cases you use flags to ignore the encodnig and there are also some methods to clean up the mess prematurely like https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.4.0/String.html#method-i-scrub < 1631067578 354334 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are separate methods .size and .bytesize < 1631067587 610687 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does Rust have all of the string dealing functions can work with byte strings too, in case you do not want to use Unicode strings (either sometimes or all the time, depending on the program)? Not all text is Unicode text (and not all can be converted to/from Unicode properly either; sometimes it is useful to try anyways, but sometimes it is better not to) < 1631067607 663470 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the fixing flags are here: https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.4.0/String.html#method-i-encode < 1631067608 310600 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: sort-of; they aren't polymorphic but they're duplicated between the string and bytestring cases < 1631067615 578011 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except in cases which don't make sense < 1631067625 177807 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I like about C and PostScript is that it doesn't use Unicode. < 1631067672 822809 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. strings have both to_uppercase and to_ascii_uppercase, wheres bytestrings only have the ASCII version < 1631067682 891286 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, sometimes some functions won't make sense for both, is reasonable. That is one example, yes < 1631067755 74164 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's surprising how useful the ASCII-specific functions are, actually, they're good for things like handling programming languages with case-insensitive keywords (because the keywords are generally recognised only if written with ASCII characters) < 1631067768 58200 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although if they are stored internally as UTF-8 and known to be valid UTF-8, then it seems that some of them could be polymorphic, including to_ascii_uppercase since it is doing the same thing whether it is UTF-8 or ASCII presumably) < 1631067784 468932 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… now I'm wondering if there's a programming language with case-insensitive keywords and one of them contains the substring "ss" < 1631067801 374761 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be interesting to throw a ß at them to see if it would be recognised, I bet it wouldn't be < 1631067907 365776 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: it'd be hard to make to_ascii_uppercase polymorphic in Rust without a special safety override – the compiler would see bytes internally within a string being mutated directly by to_ascii_uppercase, which isn't allowed by default in case you change the internal representation in a way that makes it invalid UTF-8 < 1631067916 565143 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's easier to just duplicate the code rather than using unsafe code < 1631067947 222704 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you definitely *could* write a function to handle both but I don't think the compiler developers would want to < 1631067959 642170 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe some might do that with "ss" depending on the implementation, in which case some implementations might be incorrect. < 1631067996 334963 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :> "лол".b.reverse.force_encoding("utf-8") < 1631067996 398905 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :=> "\xBBол\xD0" < 1631067997 775126 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : error: < 1631067997 862136 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : Variable not in scope: force_encoding :: [Char] -> a -> [a0] < 1631068007 742345 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :reversing the bytes broke it ) < 1631068037 694243 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, at least that function has a sufficiently scary name < 1631068056 309893 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell would probably call it UnsafeForceEncoding or something like that < 1631068058 431572 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, maybe the language might need to be specified for Unicode case functions, since e.g. some languages will have dot and dotless "I"/"i" being separately, etc) < 1631068104 843221 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust's super-scary functions generally have very normal/unassuming-looking names, but you need to use a special keyword for calling them to say that you're recognising the danger < 1631068141 396194 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I actually think Turkic case-folding might be the *only* case in which you can't infer the case-folding rules from the codepoints being used, but I'm not sure < 1631068154 855953 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :only for a particular definition of super-scary (might cause undefined behavior) < 1631068167 2139 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose there is a segfault thing in rust < 1631068172 528676 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :using 'unsafe' to encode other properties of reasonable API usage is frowned upon < 1631068177 78724 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would have simplified things if "Turkic dotless ı" and "Turkic dotted i" were different codepoints from "non-Turkic lowercase i" < 1631068218 178122 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: I guess, although undefined behaviour is by definition worse than anything else that might go wrong with a program < 1631068222 290537 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but constructing a &str that points to invalid UTF8 can cause undefined behavior < 1631068236 612705 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :because other 'safe' &str APIs are free to assume that it is valid UTF-8 < 1631068271 262497 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so any function which converts &[u8] to &str (or Vec to String, etc.) needs to either check that it's valid UTF-8, or be 'unsafe' to leave that up to the programmer < 1631068273 450104 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, e.g. seeing an FD byte means it's safe to read three more bytes < 1631068318 117377 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which it might not be, if the internal format isn't being statically analysed to be correct < 1631068358 182034 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something that many UB models do, but Rust doesn't, is distinguish between values that are UB to use and values that are UB to even construct < 1631068387 294007 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust currently has a misencoded &str as something that's UB to even construct, like it does with its other UB values, although It seems unlikely that it would be a problem in practice (still, there's no reason to actually do that) < 1631068434 453227 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the advantage for the "UB to even construct" model is that it makes it easier to reason about things like signal handlers causing unwinds at unexpected points in the code < 1631068466 649556 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although, I believe Rust's model for panics is that it's safe to create regions of code in which a panic would be undefined behaviour as long as you can prove that there can't actually be a panic there) < 1631068475 4414 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing that Unicode is especially bad for, I think, is arranging text on a grid-based text display. (This doesn't mean it is bad for everything. For some things, Unicode is OK, but could be better for those things.) < 1631068522 193175 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I was writing a program to do that, but didn't get very far < 1631068539 270280 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the furthest I got was working out how wide each character should be, and even then it isn't really specified in detail in Unicode < 1631068558 328811 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Ruby raw socket data encoding is ASCII while the built-in http retrievers are utf-8 by default; let me check... open("https://www.google.com/", &:read).encoding => # -- oh I'm not sure what it is < 1631068578 790519 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that is the greatest (but not only) problem with using Unicode for arranging text on a grid-based text display. Other encodings will be better. < 1631068593 827279 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in HTTP, also in HTML, the convention is that the producer of the data (typically the server) states what encoding it is in < 1631068610 964026 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the recommendation is always to send UTF-8 with a label stating that it's UTF-8 < 1631068637 952606 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, Chrome says www.google.com responds with content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 actually < 1631068645 123311 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both HTTP and HTML provide separate mechanisms for stating what the encoding is; I think HTML's wins if there's a contradiction < 1631068650 285714 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I was designing to include the encoding with the string, I might use the 16-bit code page numbers, such as: 0 means no encoding, 367 means ASCII only, 1209 means UTF-8, etc. I also made a list of some of things that as far as I know don't have existing code page numbers, so I made up my own for them, e.g. TRON, CLC-INTERCAL EBCDIC, Powerline UTF-8, etc. < 1631068679 600354 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: they may both be right, nothing forces Google to respond in the same encoding every time < 1631068705 399774 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, ruby sens ruby's user-agent < 1631068708 247658 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so idk < 1631068711 949806 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*sends < 1631068726 959010 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I might also, in a terminal emulator, use one escape code to select the code page. If Unicode is implemented at all, the standard sequence to select UTF-8 might select the "Powerline UTF-8" code page, although I would think it better to use an encoding that doesn't confuse character widths and that stuff like Unicode does, instead.) < 1631068770 202521 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I just accessed google.com manually via telnet, asking for its homepage < 1631068789 720611 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs : 301 Moved

301 Moved

The document has moved here. < 1631068813 432326 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was shocked to see a "Google has moved" message, but I guess this what their webserver does for the human-readable part of a 301 < 1631068821 175240 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it added www. to your request < 1631068831 338690 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it told me to retry with a www. < 1631068832 912784 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I sent without) < 1631068853 42543 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I mean that, just said it wrong < 1631068874 512123 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is some weird HTML, though < 1631068901 201509 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :upper-case tags, apart from one very old-fashioned character set tag (which duplicates an HTTP header) < 1631068908 33049 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no doctype, so it's quirks mode < 1631068918 551420 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me the crazy guy back in 2006 who wanted to make his own instant messaging application that would send screenshots of text instead of the text < 1631068928 913954 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :he would defeat the encoding problem < 1631068973 623807 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :either this is a page that hardly ever gets looked at (which wouldn't surprise me – it does its job and is rarely seen by a human), or there's some advantage to writing it in that style (which wouldn't surprise me) < 1631069012 902730 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would, although that approach has different problems (such as taking up more space, and being unable to change the fonts). DVD subtitles work similarly; they store the text as pictures. < 1631069013 20969 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It looks automatically generated, especially given that this is going to only be seen by the most primitive of Web user agents, and people who access websites without a browser for some reason < 1631069051 790565 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: maybe an interesting middle-ground would be to have a library of images of characters, and then encode the image by referencing them < 1631069065 6739 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would also solve the encoding problem for human-readability purposes < 1631069076 978621 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but would be very bad for software accessibility, you're basically sending a CAPTCHA < 1631069101 731366 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people often want to copy-and-paste out of messages into text fields, for example (and blind people may rely on a screen reader) < 1631069153 411171 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I don't think the user agent has the ability to tell the server what character encoding it wants the server to send < 1631069181 887830 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a library of images of characters, and then encode the image by referencing them" -- isn't it a font file? ..D < 1631069183 931742 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you'd therefore expect Google to send the same character encoding to both Ruby and Chrome < 1631069210 127408 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: almost – font files are supposed to specify which codepoint is used for which of the images they contain < 1631069215 410432 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Character names is another thing that may be useful for some purposes and worse for others, such as how PostScript does when rendering fonts. < 1631069224 735437 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas this would just be specifying the image to use by index into the file, which might have nothing to do with codepoints < 1631069244 837111 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"people often want to copy-and-paste out of messages" -- now this is about my idea of the universally accepted "chat copypasta" format < 1631069260 39732 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally, some LaTeX renderers appear to render via using fonts that specify codepoints unrelated to the actual characters being used, which can create weird results if you copy-and-paste from the resulting PDF < 1631069296 913119 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: or visit a link in a message, which might not always (or usually) be done by copy-and-pasting but it's essentially the same problem < 1631069318 607629 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Accept-Encoding < 1631069361 181470 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The user agent doesn't *directly* indicate which character encoding the client expects, but empirical tests show that copying my Chrome UA into curl -A (but changing nothing else) does make a difference in the encoding of the result. < 1631069361 274708 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that's the first one I tried < 1631069366 508113 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's about gzip and the like > 1631069381 559482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87931&oldid=87614 5* 03Corbin 5* (+53) 10The reference implementation now has its own typechecker, rather than calling OCaml and parsing the type. < 1631069390 695588 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that's interesting, I wonder what its criterion is < 1631069391 639227 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if it is just a index into the file, supporting code page conversion with it can still be helpful. (Also, some glyphs might correspond to a sequence of code points instead of a single one, depending on the font and on the encoding; this is even true of Unicode, and in the case of Unicode at least it can even be ambiguous. So, even then the index into the file is insufficient even if you do have conversion.) < 1631069405 66902 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait I'm wrong that's wrong header < 1631069409 511723 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I saw one < 1631069457 773873 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently there *was* an Accept-Charset, but it is no more. < 1631069482 84705 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: what criteria do you think that programs should use to decide what encodings their inputs are in, and what encodings to produce outputs in? < 1631069526 862525 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the main options are "look at the locale environment variables (or OS equivalent)", "always use/assume UTF-8", and intermediate combinations of those < 1631069528 892371 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Depends on the program. It may be one or more of: the file itself, the file format it deals with, command-line arguments, environment variables (such as LANG), etc. < 1631069535 647193 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"specifying the image to use by index" -- reminds me inserting icons via CSS by addressing a shift and crop on a single png asset < 1631069565 862914 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the character addresses don't have to be a natural number but can be even an overlapping region < 1631069597 524306 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs : The Encoding standard requires use of the UTF-8 character encoding and requires use of the "utf-8" encoding label to identify it. Those requirements necessitate that the document's character encoding declaration, if it exists, specifies an encoding label using an ASCII case-insensitive match for "utf-8". Regardless of whether a character encoding declaration is present or not, the actual character encoding used to encode the document must < 1631069598 898575 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :be UTF-8. < 1631069652 977510 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowing HTML, it wouldn't surprise me if it discusses what to do if it isn't, regardless < 1631069705 413379 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, a program that deals with JSON can assume UTF-8 for input, and using a switch to switch the output between UTF-8 and ASCII. Programs that just write descriptive text (such as status messages, error messages) should either assume ASCII or use the environment variables (and should never just assume UTF-8). For other things, other encodings are useful, or sometimes just ignoring encodings entirely and copying text as-is. < 1631069706 230931 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"link in a message" -- maybe this is a thing to be changed in future; we are used to copypaste texts, then lazyness made us want to just click, maybe there are new ways to make a buddy visit your page, like forcing his software doing it without showing you the URL; also deeplinks < 1631069720 500119 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, it also states that the encoding needs to be specified via one of a number of ways, but accepts BOM as one of those ways < 1631069741 167891 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's standards-compliant to send an HTML page with just a UTF-8 BOM as the only thing saying it's UTF-8, but it wouldn't surprise me if browsers missed that case < 1631069784 329015 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: I guess if you're sending images, you could send a QR code (although that just gets back into encoding issues again) < 1631069818 857095 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: FWIW, supplying a Chrome-like user agent changes a lot of other things too. For example, using plain HTTP will serve a redirect to HTTPS to Chrome, but not to an arbitrary user agent. And of course the content of the page will be entirely different too. (All that from external observations. I don't think I can comment on the actual criteria.) < 1631069824 432534 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I was mostly thinking about text intended for humans; if the file format specifies an encoding, then obviously you need to use that one < 1631069901 74757 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: For status messages, either assuming ASCII or using the environment variables is the way to do it, I think. < 1631069910 697479 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1631069920 437408 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I can assume ASCII because that makes my programs impossible to internationalize < 1631069938 216958 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :qr code is like an analogue radio < 1631069956 279074 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even in Canada, many users will want non-ASCII characters like œ and á in their output because many Canadians primarily speak French < 1631069959 483490 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you send the data all over the place via light rays depicting a black-white thingy < 1631070001 648083 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I think that if the environment variables ask for ISO-8859-1, the program should output that, at least for stderr output < 1631070051 299551 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, I now wonder if you can measure a "power of signal" of the qr code as the distance from which the image is readable < 1631070052 363921 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know I implemented locale-specific encoding code in ayacc, because I was trying to match the POSIX specification for yacc; although, I think most of the characters that yacc cares about are primarily stable between most commonly used encodings < 1631070058 763143 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want international status messages, the file with the international text can be for a specific encoding, and if the environment variable specifies that language but with a different encoding than any of the files, it can convert it, I suppose. However, I don't internationalize command-line status messages in my programs (although I will accept documentation and GUI in other languages) < 1631070063 226918 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you could measure qr code in watts _<> < 1631070079 58717 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When just copying the input to output though, you could just pass the text "as-is" without worrying about the encoding. < 1631070093 867043 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1631070115 753656 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my experience with programs like xterm (which originally used that method) is that it's probably better to have the program do encoding conversion on output, though < 1631070139 673699 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you shouldn't need separate translation databases for FR_ca.UTF-8 and FR_ca.ISO-8859-1 < 1631070200 420360 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh, have my French locale files got uninstalled somehow? :-( < 1631070215 535356 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently not < 1631070223 714773 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :That helps when you don't have the data in the proper encoding, but when you do, you should just use them, to avoid problems with conversion. < 1631070253 398619 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I always generate the fi_FI locale on my systems, even though I never use it. < 1631070270 987004 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like to have a non-English locale around for testing locale issues, and partly just for fun < 1631070300 279936 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: ah right, so the point is that you don't want to decode into codepoints and back into bytes if the data's in the correct encoding already < 1631070305 753809 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wikipedia: "ISO-8859-1 was (according to the standard, at least) the default encoding of documents delivered via HTTP with a MIME type beginning with "text/"" < 1631070368 868481 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aren't web browsers supposed to interpret "ISO-8859-1" as actually meaning Windows-1252, though? < 1631070401 127168 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it says websites then switched to 1252 slowly < 1631070406 320118 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :as I understood < 1631070409 20548 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, here we go: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#determining-the-character-encoding < 1631070468 260707 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the HTML spec actually says that the default encoding for unmarked webpages should be assumed based on the locale within which their web browser is running < 1631070541 860228 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :MediaWiki has a special language code "qqx" that shows the message name as the translated message content, learned of that recently. < 1631070554 345966 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw < 1631070577 522142 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh wow, that would be so useful to have known about earlier (assuming it worked back then) < 1631070589 692945 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :attaching encoding as an attribute to byte sequence is like a header in image formats -- it has orientation, alpha correction, etc. < 1631070595 10015 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :From 1.18 onwards apparently. < 1631070606 625126 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are plenty of bugs when software fucks up those headers < 1631070617 800900 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*metadata < 1631070621 790246 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for ages I resorted to (web-browser-equivalent-of) grepping Special:AllMessages, which became a lot more frustrating when it stopped fitting on a page, and would have false positives due to text duplicated between messages < 1631070655 555873 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, is "qqx" in the right namespace for private-use language codes? < 1631070746 185555 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RFC 5646 implies the name should start "x-", but maybe MediaWiki doesn't like the hyphen < 1631070765 7456 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(amazingly, I actually guessed that the private use prefix was "x-", but wanted to look it up to be sure) < 1631072125 416118 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631072172 859776 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1631072198 809722 :ais523!~ais523@109.249.181.25 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1631072613 481848 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631073493 649572 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know which (if any) games other than Escape (by Tom7) can have bizarro world (like Escape does), and what its features are? I wanted to implement bizarro world in Free Hero Mesh, and should have the idea about its design. < 1631075890 759474 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1631077565 690435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631078455 947845 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is a bizarro world? < 1631078564 235879 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When using any cipher in CTR mode (including ChaCha20), does the nonce and counter have to be separate? If it is long enough, then you can do both? < 1631078670 327585 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you can combine them < 1631078686 973219 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is, start the counter at a random value and include that with the message < 1631078710 372832 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :assuming that your block size is big enough that you are unlikely to ever use the same keystream block twice in two different messages < 1631078750 30306 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it is how I mean < 1631079743 284590 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does any cipher use CFB or OFB with a counter added? < 1631079953 180529 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how would you add it < 1631080027 464839 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably XOR or addition with the input of input of each step < 1631080764 386622 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose there is three kind of functions that would be used: fixed->fixed (e.g. ChaCha20), (fixed,key)->fixed (e.g. most block ciphers), variable->fixed (e.g. most hash functions). There is also key whitening (XEX mode), and there is adding input to output like ChaCha20 does to make it difficult to reverse. < 1631080806 168380 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is easy to see with ChaCha20 that if the input is zero, then the output will also be zero. But, even if only one bit is set of the input (I tried this), then the output will be all mixed up. < 1631080835 41785 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out it was GRPC compilation what was eating all the RAM < 1631080853 266925 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it takes like 5 minutes and almost 500mb < 1631083605 74569 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or rather 40 minutes already and does not finish, lol < 1631083767 83061 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh specifically it's a Google's OpenSSL: https://github.com/google/boringssl < 1631084490 76632 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631084505 84041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" one (maybe the only/) motivating idea of the original Befunge was to be as difficult as possible to compile" => I'd like to preemptively state that that wasn't my goal when designing Consumer Society, it's just a necessary side effect < 1631085410 10230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the interesting part is that it also seems hard to translate Consumer Society to the existing high-level non-eso programming languages, even though many of them seem to have all the features necessary. this part is more an accidental side effect than necessary. < 1631085425 798889 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, spam in finnish. (Although there seems to be an english version at the end.) it's been a while since the last one. < 1631085779 819823 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631086191 153313 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok I think the compilation will just never end < 1631086219 847526 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they assign this issue https://github.com/grpc/grpc/issues/26655 to pythonist who commit 3 days a week and already have 60 issues assigned < 1631086732 585738 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1631086757 261127 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh looks like he supports all the languages at the same time, and they've already increased CI build timeouts from 60 minutes to 90 https://github.com/grpc/grpc/pull/27230/files > 1631087937 527865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87932&oldid=86861 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-2) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ '''I AM SORRY I FORGOT x''' < 1631088369 608393 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat > 1631088401 641507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87933&oldid=87932 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+96) 10 < 1631088576 614663 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1631088894 287347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87934&oldid=87933 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+84) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ < 1631089327 551519 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen > 1631089444 910317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87935&oldid=87934 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+222) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ WTF new news < 1631090290 520167 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1631090645 886937 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1631090727 567535 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple > 1631091084 640097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87936&oldid=87935 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+118) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ > 1631091314 660032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87937&oldid=87936 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+132) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ < 1631091380 780621 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1631091396 552128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ppencode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87938&oldid=87937 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+20) 10/* Definition of Perl keywords */ < 1631091608 108835 :daggy1234[m]!~daggy1234@2001:470:69fc:105::d315 QUIT :Quit: You have been kicked for being idle < 1631091915 443829 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mostly agree with ais523 here. Python 3 does the string stuff right for a high-level language: there are separate types for byte string and unicode string, and you generally don't need to know how the unicode strings are represented. It's not perfect, ideally you'd want unicode strings to have an internal form where they store utf-8 and decode < 1631091915 907817 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that only when necessary, since we do a lot of utf-8 IO, but it's still very good. Rust kind of has the approach right for a low-level language where you want to control the representation explicitly in the type system, but the standard library is somewhat lacking in string operations, so you might sometimes want to use extra libraries. But since < 1631091916 407746 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a low-level language, it does expose enough API that you can do this and can still convert to the standard library APIs and call the standard library functions when they make sense. < 1631092147 774107 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :` hmm… now I'm wondering if there's a programming language with case-insensitive keywords and one of them contains the substring "ss"' => is "keyword" relevant here? those languages usually also have c-i user-defined identifiers. < 1631092149 937512 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​? No such file or directory < 1631092254 99953 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no need in another class if all strings are just strings < 1631092371 143270 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you think about them like about a sequence of codepoints and you don't care about the internal presentation < 1631092387 552550 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘ zzo38: I actually think Turkic case-folding might be the *only* case in which you can't infer the case-folding rules from the codepoints being used, but I'm not sure’ => that is the only case I know of too, but we'll have to check the sources of libICU to be sure. < 1631092479 381108 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘ it would have simplified things if "Turkic dotless ı" and "Turkic dotted i" were different codepoints from "non-Turkic lowercase i"’ => I don't think so. The turkish i is one of those cases where there's no good solution, it's all tradeoffs. In particular if you did that, then you'd have problems when you copy a latin script proper < 1631092479 885490 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :name into a turkish text and later try to uppercase it. < 1631092564 391534 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The only solution that might work is to go back in time and convince/bribe/force Kemal Atatürk to not start that convention, but this might be dangerous or impossible for time-travel-related reasons < 1631092836 778153 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘hmm, I don't think the user agent has the ability to tell the server what character encoding it wants the server to send’ => there's an Accept-Charset request header in HTTP/1.1, but I doubt it does much in practice < 1631093093 980052 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘I think the main options are "look at the locale environment variables (or OS equivalent)", "always use/assume UTF-8", and intermediate combinations of those’ => there's also automatically guessing from the (beginning of) input, and of course explicit command-line options or environment variables, with intermediate stuff between the four. < 1631093221 515500 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, I might write a script with a command-line option to set encoding of the input, a default that's either utf-8 or utf-16-le, and a warning if you keep the default utf-8 but the input is guessed to be utf-16 or vice versa, with the explicit input encoding command-line option silencing that warning. < 1631093526 665108 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘ I guess if you're sending images, you could send a QR code’ => I recently saw a large size ad poster where most of the poster was printed in high resolution, presmuably from a vector image, but it also contained a QR code that was blown up from a too small resolution bitmap that has antialiasing, and blowing it up to the huge size and < 1631093527 166180 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :high resolution printing of the poster made those artifacts show up as various 0.005 m sized gray squares on most of the borders of a 0.03 m sized QR code grid < 1631093621 568847 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘ ais523: FWIW, supplying a Chrome-like user agent changes a lot of other things too.’ => does that depend on just the user-agent, rather than other HTTP stuff such as other request headers? < 1631093633 861340 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and eg. whether you send a HTTP/2 request < 1631093838 462296 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" the HTML spec actually says that the default encoding for unmarked webpages should be assumed based on the locale within which their web browser is running" => that was the state of art, yes, but with an encoding setting in the menu of the browser client < 1631094016 31373 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :‘ although, is "qqx" in the right namespace for private-use language codes?’ => yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2#Reserved_for_local_use < 1631094232 817511 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I regularly get a significant part of the spam in hungarian. Some of them in broken badly auto-translated hungarian, some in well-phrased hungarian. I don't find that too surprising. < 1631094258 982764 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: the surprise is that i'm not finnish or in finland hth < 1631094297 404379 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: yeah. I occasionally get spam in all sorts of random common languages. those are easier to discard because they're obviously spam. < 1631094353 594895 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, that i used to receive finnish spam ridiculously often some years ago. < 1631095208 962453 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1631098863 746555 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631100388 459446 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :omg future is today < 1631100411 187509 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :self-driving taxi in Moscow starts operating this autumn < 1631100458 105807 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(maybe correct idiom is "future is now") < 1631100787 801862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( yay, killer drones ) < 1631103653 736107 :Koen__!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631103820 582226 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631104050 334577 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`prefix < 1631104051 529914 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :prefix? No such file or directory < 1631104074 182772 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :?prefix < 1631104074 250913 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unknown command, try @list < 1631104606 170959 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`help < 1631104606 213168 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch [] " downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral. < 1631104644 984836 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :is `run the same as ```? < 1631104657 499183 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :^help < 1631104657 602980 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1631104738 994264 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :?wiki wiki < 1631104739 42253 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://wiki.haskell.org/wiki < 1631104743 697012 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: not quite. `run is a builtin that's hard or impossible to override by messing up commands in /hackenv/bin . it's probably redundant given that you can also do `/bin/bash -c but it can't hurt and will have to stay for compatibility. < 1631104743 821933 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :?gwiki wiki < 1631104744 935703 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :No Result Found. < 1631104775 934665 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: also ``` pipes the output through a stupid meme filter that we should somehow get rid of but I don't dare to just remove it from the command < 1631104789 37570 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :meme filter? < 1631104802 90117 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: yes. it's called rnooodl or something. < 1631104811 138096 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :check the source codes if you want to know < 1631104836 198169 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it annoys me because it means any lines that aren't terminated by a newline byte are eaten if the command times out: < 1631104840 18999 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cbt ``` < 1631104840 977749 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: '/hackenv/bin/```': No such file or directory < 1631104852 130932 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` echo foo; echo -n bar; sleep 9999 < 1631104868 896850 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: try with one less backtick < 1631104875 207425 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cbt `` < 1631104876 219426 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl < 1631104881 967272 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first one is just the invocation character for HackEso\ < 1631104884 678999 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, sure < 1631104887 635701 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is prepended < 1631104887 746580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1631104898 875632 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um < 1631104908 35066 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesn't that show foo? < 1631104916 599094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it's even more buffered than I thought? < 1631104918 887012 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cbt rnooodl < 1631104920 157941 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge' < 1631104929 59033 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`/bin/sh -cecho foo; echo -n bar; sleep 9999 < 1631104930 45897 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/bin/sh: 0: Illegal option -h < 1631104942 150305 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah, that's why you can't do that < 1631104946 966934 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`run echo foo; echo -n bar; sleep 9999 < 1631104982 697932 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :foo \ bar < 1631104982 819327 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -eprint("one\ntwo");sleep 9999 < 1631104999 780177 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't set no buffer for perl cmd? < 1631105013 616117 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1631105032 363717 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that wouldn't be enough. you'd have to implement it properly to only buffer one character, and even that only if it's the "d" at the right context < 1631105099 900819 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would be possible but so far I was lazy to do it < 1631105108 286420 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mostly because I hate rnooodl even besides the buffering < 1631105193 7390 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :compoundng commands here is a cool feature https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bfbot < 1631105248 784133 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not sure why this bot is in [People] < 1631105262 68605 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh fungot too < 1631105262 382729 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: also how can i know what you come up with to justify rolling my own... php witch i don't use it < 1631105299 487979 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot I thought you are b_jonas until I reached the php < 1631105299 652463 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: is he a total fnord versions. < 1631105320 578214 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh good < 1631105347 1781 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although "PHP! Witch! I don't use that" does sound kind of like me < 1631105489 287194 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :why there is no php bot < 1631105551 97925 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember on Rusnet the main bot on #programming and all related channels was one written in Delphi < 1631106673 826181 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631106863 681393 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs : (maybe correct idiom is "future is now") <-- needs a "the" in front < 1631107003 777757 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks < 1631107051 127055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :`prefixes (i think you may have been looking for this) < 1631107053 50237 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. < 1631107070 975097 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly < 1631107075 46313 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also an implicit cat in all the commands, if memory serves as a way to ensure the standard output stream does not look like a terminal. (Some programs adapt their output format, and the argument was, output suitable for pipes is more likely to be output suitable for IRC.) < 1631107078 647259 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead I went through wiki article < 1631107134 841289 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambdabot is prefix squatter < 1631107187 800772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :technically it also squats :k and :t < 1631107227 868714 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :as well as its own name in some cases < 1631107232 277784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambdabot, @run 2 < 1631107233 855567 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 2 < 1631107265 859944 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those are hard to do by accident and the list was getting too long < 1631107300 247692 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs ::k hm < 1631107301 429116 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :error: Not in scope: type variable ‘hm’ < 1631107345 104852 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs ::k Monad < 1631107346 149537 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :(* -> *) -> Constraint < 1631107357 163948 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Full disclosure: I've not removed EgoBot's ! from that list as a sneaky plan to squat ! for "official" commands handled by the `esolangs` bot, in case such commands ever start to exist. < 1631107431 600818 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bfjoust bots also use ! but only with specific commands following. < 1631107478 813706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it worked because all the bots using ! were silent if there's not a command match < 1631107485 868668 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and fungot too < 1631107486 145027 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: i think that i aren t sarahbot are me? hm. < 1631107496 433140 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :!bf ,[.,]!Hi < 1631107501 698551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait < 1631107514 923138 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf ,[.,]!Hi < 1631107515 430 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1631107524 848339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :!logs < 1631107534 908975 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :that one used to respond in private < 1631107540 171288 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Yeah, sarahbot isn't even a bot on this channel. < 1631107540 355978 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: imagine this, means? completely just 1 < 1631107542 812790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :by ... glogbot, i think < 1631107560 619398 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think sarahbot was from #scheme.) < 1631107602 705481 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :well fungot is also silent on non-matching commands, that part was right < 1631107603 308965 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: the chan serv answers to all comers at apple stores. :o fnord hours left before the next statement and write a bytechanger interpreter in asm, c, pascal, perl, pntr, refc, roma, and the < 1631107610 921421 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :^nosuchcommand < 1631107699 960455 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot how much is fnord hours? < 1631107700 232554 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: anyone knows where i can find out what extras those contain. < 1631107779 596858 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, I wasn't aware Apple stores have ChanServ in (on?) them. < 1631108185 953646 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1631108309 622025 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631108600 905464 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1631109132 377277 :Koen__!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631109387 712444 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1631109537 901057 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1631109564 458364 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot prefixes < 1631109565 7889 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \. < 1631111641 70938 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland python3 -c '"Getting the current wallclock time in the local timezone and UTC."; import datetime as g; n = g.datetime.now; [print(t.strftime("%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z %Z")) for t in [n().astimezone(), n(tz = g.timezone.utc)]];' < 1631111644 399096 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T02:34:03+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-08T14:34:03+0000 UTC < 1631111659 259594 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ Python's datetime module is so nontrivial to use that I want to get these magic incantations to the channel log < 1631111704 393574 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the TZ override is there only to make this a better test, since otherwise HackEso default to UTC timezone < 1631111757 988210 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631112119 611373 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the way, < 1631112121 502952 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=uWIw/Dtca/FlSM date +%Z # esoteric way to strip the part of a filename after the first slash < 1631112123 999946 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :uWIw < 1631112180 484021 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cool ☺ < 1631112191 94998 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't quite work for all filenames < 1631112328 985523 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1631113943 678671 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ ruby -e '[Time.now, Time.now.getutc].each{ |n| puts n.strftime "%FT%T%z %Z" }' < 1631113943 725594 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T18:11:32+0300 MSK / 2021-09-08T15:11:32+0000 UTC < 1631113986 897028 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ruby -e '[Time.now, Time.now.getutc].each{ |n| puts n.strftime "%FT%T%z %Z" }' # does that work in this version of ruby? < 1631113988 526365 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T15:13:08+0000 UTC \ 2021-09-08T15:13:08+0000 UTC < 1631114000 123208 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland ruby -e '[Time.now, Time.now.getutc].each{ |n| puts n.strftime "%FT%T%z %Z" }' # does that work in this version of ruby? < 1631114001 474095 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T03:13:21+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-08T15:13:21+0000 UTC < 1631114002 978921 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I forgot it's installed < 1631114071 918936 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland; for r in "" -u; do date $r +"%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z %Z"; done < 1631114072 914087 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T15:14:32+0000 UTC \ 2021-09-08T15:14:32+0000 UTC < 1631114082 449712 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` export TZ=Pacific/Auckland; for r in "" -u; do date $r +"%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z %Z"; done < 1631114083 477950 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T03:14:42+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-08T15:14:43+0000 UTC < 1631114094 594489 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks good < 1631114253 134928 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ruby -rtzinfo -e 't = TZInfo::Timezone.get("Pacific/Auckland").to_local Time.now; [t, t.getutc].each{ |n| puts n.strftime "%FT%T%z %Z" }' < 1631114254 490002 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/usr/lib/ruby/2.5.0/rubygems/core_ext/kernel_require.rb:59:in `require': cannot load such file -- tzinfo (LoadError) \ from /usr/lib/ruby/2.5.0/rubygems/core_ext/kernel_require.rb:59:in `require' < 1631114287 82146 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the same just extracting timezone via standard gem tzinfo (that isn't installed)) < 1631114327 530609 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you could adjust timezone by a runtime var < 1631115001 750926 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland perl -e'use Date::Manip::Date; $b = Date::Manip::Date->new(); for $r ([],["setdate","now,UTC"]) { print $b->new("now",$r)->printf("%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%D%z %Z\n"); }' < 1631115008 811593 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T03:30:09/09/21+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-09T03:30:09/09/21+0000 UTC < 1631115026 760324 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland perl -e'use Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new("now"); for $_r (0,1) { print $d->printf("%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%D%z %Z\n"); $d->convert("UTC"); }' < 1631115028 277951 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T03:30:09/09/21+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-08T15:30:09/08/21+0000 UTC < 1631115037 742101 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :either of these work with the Date::Manip module < 1631115412 69377 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :weird that perl is this longer here < 1631115459 659275 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland perl -e'use Date::Manip::Date; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new("now"); for $_r (0,1) { print $d->printf("%FT%T%z %Z\n"); $d->convert("UTC"); }' < 1631115461 402302 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thursday, September 9, 2021T03:37:40+1200 NZST \ Wednesday, September 8, 2021T15:37:40+0000 UTC < 1631115468 128969 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops < 1631115643 742349 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: more like it's not golfed. there were shorter ways to print these in perl if I wanted. < 1631115676 762223 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus that's just one of the datetime modules available in perl < 1631115701 315027 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :incidentally you can use the format "%O%z %Z" with Date::Manip. < 1631115732 713792 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but my goal here isn't to print the date in this one format, but to show how to get a date object (with which I could do arithmetic) and then print it in any format I choose < 1631115739 327020 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I don't know how much space perl takes when it's not golfed < 1631115754 859937 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the python statement does that too, if I just wanted to print the current time in that format it could be shorter < 1631115828 30929 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` TZ=Pacific/Auckland ruby -e 't = Time.now; p [t, t.class, t.zone]' < 1631115829 338236 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[2021-09-09 03:43:48 +1200, Time, "NZST"] < 1631115958 663829 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are so many methods in classes Time, Date and DateTime -- impossible to remember them ..D < 1631115996 868371 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not even saying about all the trash that is added by Rails < 1631116063 40711 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631116076 53815 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of it is just the same under another name -- people invent some fancy methods, shortcuts, implement them in Rails, and then when it gets implemented in pure Ruby they don't throw it away from Rails, and it's just like a tumour < 1631116087 626957 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631116099 947248 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want something short, then try one of < 1631116106 110917 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` date +%FT%T%z\ %Z; date --rfc-3=s < 1631116107 313973 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T15:48:26+0000 UTC \ 2021-09-08 15:48:26+00:00 < 1631116147 305658 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :throw in a -u switch for UTC < 1631116156 325770 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1631116160 38934 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` export TZ=Pacific/Auckland; date +%FT%T%z\ %Z; date --rfc-3=s < 1631116161 42260 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-09T03:49:20+1200 NZST \ 2021-09-09 03:49:20+12:00 < 1631116171 688392 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` export TZ=Pacific/Auckland; date -u +%FT%T%z\ %Z; date -u --rfc-3=s < 1631116172 665813 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T15:49:32+0000 UTC \ 2021-09-08 15:49:32+00:00 < 1631116239 281453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1631116242 638952 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` ruby -e '$><<`date +%FT%T%z\\ %Z`<<`date --rfc-3=s`' < 1631116244 126788 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2021-09-08T15:50:43+0000 UTC \ 2021-09-08 15:50:43+00:00 < 1631116252 120258 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the latter does not work on macos < 1631116262 979188 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :date: illegal option -- - < 1631116280 721801 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. on BSD I assume < 1631118672 830682 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631120156 572533 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631120767 554953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: ... ok. you might need to install GNU coreutils for that. I don't use an OS X so I can't really help in that. (I could tell for Windows.) < 1631122640 784802 :scjosh!~scjosh@206.189.79.69 JOIN #esolangs scjosh :Josh < 1631122723 718742 :VilgotanL!~VilgotanL@84.23.137.213 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1631122725 459419 :VilgotanL!~VilgotanL@84.23.137.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :h < 1631123139 928266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-09-08.html#l2c ‘I actually think Turkic case-folding might be the *only* case in which you can't infer the case-folding rules from the codepoints being used’, I'm looking at the ICU sources right now. < 1631123146 389965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a enum in ucase.h that defines the constants UCASE_LOC_UNKNOWN UCASE_LOC_ROOT UCASE_LOC_TURKISH UCASE_LOC_LITHUANIAN UCASE_LOC_GREEK UCASE_LOC_DUTCH UCASE_LOC_ARMENIAN which ICU uses internally to know what casefolding rules to apply. I believe this isn't an exposed API. the correct constant is computed from the locale by ucase.cpp:ucase_getCaseLocale < 1631123155 333109 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ucase.cpp also handles (at least some of the) actual locale-dependent case-conversion rules. there are comments like ‘// և ligature ech-yiwn uppercases to ԵՒ=ech+yiwn by default and in Western Armenian, but to ԵՎ=ech+vew in Eastern Armenian.’ < 1631123166 608600 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh my < 1631123178 107222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :UCASE_LOC_LITHUANIAN has to do something with dots on i and j with accents but I don't quite understand what; UCASE_LOC_DUTCH something with "IJ", and UCASE_LOC_GREEK does some magic with ancient greek accented characters. < 1631123240 784473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, at least as libicu is concerned, turkish case folding isn't the only locale-dependent one, but some of this might be an artifact of ICU wanting to implement both practical casefolding and strict conformance to unicode casefolding < 1631123283 909844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is from ICU4C version 69.1 < 1631123286 156457 :VilgotanL!~VilgotanL@84.23.137.213 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631123298 452319 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I want to delve into this deeper than that < 1631123306 659533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to delve into the source code that is < 1631124646 629840 :Koen_!~Koen@96.250.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1631125002 742931 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1631125012 392128 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631125068 610133 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631129300 573646 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631131454 839651 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631132111 644450 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know how (or if) TRON handles case folding. I also think someone else on the esoteric programming IRC mentioned idea to have split codes with the language and glyph, that way you could also handle case folding properly, too < 1631132272 479366 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, you can implement Turkish case folding with Turkish character encoding. > 1631134311 80478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mogus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87939 5* 03ArthroStar11 5* (+1621) 10Created page with "== Attempt at an interpreter == Hi, I attempted to make an interpreter for this language [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RotVm5i9xgDN94vK47tBUwHFiOGVAmLv/view?usp=sharing li..." < 1631134381 824938 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631134580 984025 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1631134643 722320 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631134740 726630 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1631134768 453613 :Everything!~Everythin@37.115.210.35 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1631136602 400321 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bleh. I use this one place's free secondary DNS service, and they've been pretty laggy in the past in terms of responding to notifys to refresh the zone, so I've had to bump up the ACME dns-01 verification delay all the way to 300 seconds. But now they've gone and started to take like half an hour. So the certbot update of esolangs.org fails. :/ < 1631136613 881861 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I need to do that thing where I delegate the `_acme-challenge` names as a subdomain that's only hosted by the primary nameserver. Since if it's down, it's not like the dynamic update would work anyway. < 1631136624 840931 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or else I should've just used the HTTP-based challenge like normal people. < 1631137180 786091 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631137501 293464 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631139433 636727 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631139527 792205 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631139583 131778 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631139639 881361 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal < 1631150796 384978 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bah. I think there's no way to tell the certbot-dns-rfc2136 plugin that it should attempt to do an RFC 2136 update to some *other* domain name, under the assumption it's been CNAME'd to a different domain. :/ I could probably script it on top of a manual auth hook and nsupdate, but :effort: < 1631151826 447066 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631153655 441597 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I don't use an OS X so I can't really help in that" -- I just inform that that command isn't compatible < 1631153816 643294 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1631153841 981482 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631160270 864125 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1631161210 190104 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631162115 65309 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin < 1631164911 466237 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631164956 58948 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631166569 744580 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631166632 635246 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki Linux < 1631166633 476551 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :(alt: 'Linux kernel') Family of Unix-like operating systems < 1631166639 447046 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki Linux kernel < 1631166640 386204 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :Free and open-source Unix-like operating system kernel < 1631166713 793531 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki VPCLMULQDQ < 1631166714 712137 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX-512 are 512-bit extensions to the 256-bit Advanced Vector Extensions SIMD instructions for x86 instruction set architecture (ISA) proposed by Intel in July 2013, and implemented in Intel's Xeon Phi x200 (Knights Landing) and Skylake-X CPUs; this includes the Core-X series (excluding the Core i5-7640X and Core i7-7740X), as well as the new Xeon Scalable Processor Family and Xeon D-2100 Embedded Series.[LF] < 1631166731 415526 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki lasjdkjhasdjasbd < 1631166731 923003 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :nothing was found < 1631166751 620015 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I'll append the ' ' to output < 1631166753 943074 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*prepend < 1631167238 92928 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631167257 689054 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631167613 439019 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631167632 732133 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631167974 439862 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631167991 826704 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631168732 327188 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631168758 113252 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik > 1631168964 554661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87940&oldid=87683 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+472) 10added examples of \wiki command < 1631169136 191573 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki befunge < 1631169137 351296 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Chris Pressey[LF] < 1631169141 62425 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn < 1631169149 268264 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :badly formatted one I guess < 1631169819 75195 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki befunge < 1631169820 231518 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Befunge is a two-dimensional stack-based, reflective, esoteric programming language. It differs from conventional languages in that programs are arranged on a two-dimensional grid. "Arrow" instructions direct the control flow to the left, right, up or down, and loops are constructed by sending the control flow in a cycle. It has been described as "a cross between Forth and Lemmings".[LF] < 1631169859 881302 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fixed the page, "programming language" Infobox was broken < 1631170177 285066 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631170204 689121 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631171657 563361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631171739 404284 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in < 1631171770 823711 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631171853 226140 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Client Quit < 1631171883 835450 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631172055 641941 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Client Quit < 1631172087 641489 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631172106 609808 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Client Quit < 1631172136 823455 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631174813 619329 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631174961 610928 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631175715 919359 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631178125 559070 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631178982 819981 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs joast :purple < 1631179960 868539 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1631179985 700665 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631180788 258254 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631180819 717740 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik > 1631184299 762984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeLiiLii14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87941 5* 03Magnogen 5* (+2431) 10Created page with "==About HeLiiLii== [['''HeLiiLii''']] (pronounced heh-lee-lee) is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[User:Magnogen]] in 2021, although the idea behind it was..." > 1631186458 71420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeLiiLii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87942&oldid=87941 5* 03Magnogen 5* (+1438) 10 > 1631186868 672567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeLiiLii14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87943&oldid=87942 5* 03Magnogen 5* (+25) 10full name pog > 1631187012 718921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeLiiLii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87944&oldid=87943 5* 03Magnogen 5* (+14) 10heliilii < 1631191229 723197 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631191261 714898 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631191440 756390 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :found that Wikidata has better summaries; code even became shorter < 1631191697 948444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631191706 207488 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki VPCLMULQDQ < 1631191707 451902 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : AVX-512 -- Instruction set extension developed by Intel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVX-512 < 1631191859 326493 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631191886 561023 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki befunge < 1631191887 848471 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Befunge -- esoteric, 2-dimensional programming language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge < 1631191901 84239 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i seem to have read that wikipedia used the wikidata summaries at one point but then changed their policy not to < 1631192843 433975 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately such articles like befunge and avx don't have {short description} so those large outputs were the results of the whole first paragraph text parsing; switching to wikidata avoids these spontaneous big replies; I hope wikidata has summary for everything, we'll see < 1631192885 410699 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :if not, I'll reattach the first paragraph parsing as a fallback < 1631193562 224683 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1631193655 625548 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631193960 332469 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I can adapt that parsing to a... \esowiki < 1631194436 326755 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631194463 924345 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik > 1631194772 499057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87945&oldid=87940 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+434) 10added \esowiki < 1631194831 820368 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas I just spotted you wrote "commands starting with a backspace..." https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Velik&diff=prev&oldid=85671 < 1631194837 344691 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1631194847 767222 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\esowiki befunge < 1631194848 948855 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Befunge is a two-dimensional esoteric programming language invented in 1993 by Chris Pressey with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. Code is laid out on a two-dimensional grid of instructions, and execution can proceed in any direction of that grid. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge < 1631195000 450050 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose weird "Note" at the top of [wiki brainfuck] isn't a usual wikimedia Template that the parsing gem is used to, so it thinks it's the actual first paragraph ( < 1631195003 612213 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php < 1631195028 290130 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :woah, this url is weird < 1631195138 83047 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is weird: 1. https://i.imgur.com/zLkVuWF.png 2. https://i.imgur.com/X0poLvz.png < 1631195476 615988 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631195620 727151 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631195647 768955 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631195713 925842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1631195754 420950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Nakilon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87946&oldid=83634 5* 03Nakilon 5* (-25) 10can't be found on freenode > 1631195993 727874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87947 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+3102) 10Created page with "JSInstruction is an esoteric programming language written by [User:Dominicentek]. The language has only one built in instruction and you can add more by including JavaScript c..." > 1631196070 607501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87948&oldid=87947 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-5) 10 > 1631196144 650280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87949&oldid=87948 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+42) 10 > 1631196162 38767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87950&oldid=87949 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+4) 10 > 1631196192 617946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87951&oldid=87865 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+20) 10/* J */ < 1631196200 119053 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:e578:65a3:833a:6855 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. > 1631196210 140013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87952&oldid=87950 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+2) 10 < 1631196225 867488 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH I think unqualified "wiki" on this channel should mean our own one, not WikiPedia. > 1631196259 831883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87953&oldid=87952 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-1) 10 < 1631196309 465309 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair point < 1631196322 908942 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what would be the command for wikipedia then? \wikipedia? \wp? < 1631196447 516051 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :why don't you use [[...]] for inline links instead of [wiki ...]? i guess you can then make your bot ignore the esolangs bot < 1631196475 75967 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: "wp"'s pretty unambigious imo, so both'd work < 1631196571 249998 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use "wp" as my personal search keyword, but that's just me. < 1631196664 645470 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even just 'w' which i think is how other wikimedia sites link to wikipedia (also ddg uses the !w bang for searching wikipedia) < 1631196686 539953 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is ddg < 1631196696 266256 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yeah, "Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php" is a different language than "Brainfuck", but it's unfortunate if that comes up as the best match there. < 1631196700 101470 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :duckduckgo.com/ > 1631196731 300410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dominicentek14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87954&oldid=87179 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+39) 10 > 1631196742 726943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dominicentek14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87955&oldid=87954 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+4) 10 < 1631196762 94377 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I didn't even realise that's a language < 1631196967 430659 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like it's in the same category of silly names as "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download" and "Esolang talk:Klat gnalosE". < 1631197162 643541 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631197345 208095 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I have a matrix multiplication A*B, I know I can interpret that as A transforming B. Is there any way to interpret it as B taking some action of rotation + translation on A? Maybe in a different order? (If it's a translate-rotate matrix) < 1631197455 693422 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: transposition reverses multiplication < 1631197472 922245 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then the resulting matrix is transposed < 1631197540 415804 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then transpose again. Another way to put this is that the category of matrices is self-dual. < 1631197580 635915 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(That's the category whose objects are the natural numbers and arrows are matrices; composition is matrix multiplication, and the opposite category just transposes everything.) < 1631197711 821400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can think of applying (A*B)^t to a vector as applying the _transpose_ of that vector on the left of A*B < 1631197734 206739 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a vector being seen as an n by 1 matrix) < 1631197789 258968 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is, ((A*B)^t*v) = (v^t*A*B)^t < 1631197878 669862 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :glh::matrix4f newCameraMatrix = slCameraMatrix * m_mat4HMDPose * eyeLocation; < 1631197911 714526 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there translations/rotations that could be done to slCameraMatrix that would be equivalent to that? (knowing m_mat4HMDPose and eyeLocation are translation/rotation matrices) < 1631197955 594534 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c JOIN #esolangs * :anon > 1631197959 483720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87956 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+1603) 10Created page with "[[Meow]] is a joke esolang created by [[User:Martsadas]] that has 2 registers that can store integers

=== Instructions: === {| class="wikitable" ! Instruction !! What..." > 1631197980 573243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Martsadas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87957&oldid=87787 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+11) 10Meow < 1631198147 354145 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: if all the matrices are invertible, A*B=C*A implies C=A*B*A^-1. that is going to depend on A. < 1631198174 509158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :if not all of the matrices are invertible, there might not be solution, or it might not be unique. < 1631198181 111522 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :*a solution < 1631198296 704772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/all the matrices/A and B/, you get C for free. < 1631198324 577421 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The notes at https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL-Refpages/gl2.1/xhtml/gluLookAt.xml might be helpful in this particular case, too. < 1631198334 865742 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. A*B*C = D*E*A < 1631198335 170449 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : would let some of the operations occur in a different order < 1631198430 765421 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: that's not really going to help because what i said about C before now applies to M=D*E < 1631198809 79593 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Evil+Numbers some familiar names < 1631198976 812847 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah we played around with that here back in ... 2015, according to the date beside my name < 1631199028 976880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i see henkma is no longer the unbeaten haskell champion < 1631199087 791930 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :well seems lynn is now. she used to be a regular here. < 1631199200 869004 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or well, "here" that used to be on freenode) < 1631199219 327534 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631199230 643656 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631199340 813778 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631199353 64507 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1631199370 924339 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631199499 654069 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631199502 437195 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[velik]] < 1631199503 604523 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Velik < 1631199507 151419 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki velik < 1631199509 315592 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : velik is an IRC bot maintained by User:Nakilon. It was created in 2021-05. It is resident on the libera/#esolangs channel. It can execute RASEL language code and also responds to some other commands (use \help to see all of them). https://esolangs.org/wiki/Velik < 1631199511 927739 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631199603 526970 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631199623 927507 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631199829 636890 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do I escape [ and ] in code block? < 1631199895 370663 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean [[ and ]] < 1631199896 557782 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar%20and%20Foobaz%20and%20Barbaz,%20oh%20my! < 1631199901 214386 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they become bold < 1631199904 257622 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1631200138 463577 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :weird this issue does not happen on pages with bf code with double brackets > 1631200411 743541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87958&oldid=87945 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+1) 10\wiki -> \wp, \esowiki -> \wiki, [wiki ...] -> [[...]]] < 1631200435 131637 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : worked < 1631200542 124422 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki Jelly < 1631200543 247730 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Jelly is a golfing language by Dennis Mitchell inspired by the J programming language. It has a free online compiler on Try It Online. It comes with its own character set (of 256 characters) and character encoding, apparently unrelated to any previous encodings. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jelly < 1631200552 740535 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cool. < 1631200656 851214 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not really sure why it ignores esolangs, I didn't implemented it yet < 1631200673 376707 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :velik you are too smart < 1631200935 613820 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631200989 683320 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it had to be triggered twice here :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :\u000314[[\u000307Velik\u000314]]\u00034 \u000310 \u000302https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87958&oldid=87945\u0003 \u00035*\u0003 \u000303Nakilon\u0003 \u00035*\u0003 (+1) \u000310\\wiki -> \\wp, \\esowiki -> \\wiki, [wiki ...] -> [[...]]]\u0003 < 1631201121 325408 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I guess the gem that is used here just can't handle ... nor those characters < 1631201319 933011 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631201698 362888 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or rather those queries just return nothing in wiki search < 1631201772 868803 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I... think I got confused because applying rotation B after A should be.... A*B? To get a model matrix? < 1631201788 197382 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking it would be B*A, but... ugh > 1631202388 318112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87959&oldid=87956 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+867) 10fixed 99 bottles of beer and added fizzbuzz and factorial and cat program < 1631203117 933995 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631203560 237507 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan | well seems lynn is now. she used to be a regular here. => ah didn't know that < 1631203630 950906 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: i don't know if you already know, but henkma released their golfs recently https://github.com/henkma/HaskellGolfSpoiler < 1631205056 541477 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1631205173 470452 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631205578 449864 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a way to indicate that a language should have an article, besides redlinking? In particular, is there a page of desired articles? < 1631205631 929988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hanif: aha! < 1631205771 641558 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like redlinking < 1631205779 483067 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I miss the times when wikipedia was all red < 1631206104 505790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is the automatic https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:WantedPages < 1631206113 507795 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(based on number of red links) < 1631206163 871097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :[wiki List of ideas] < 1631206174 169071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1631206224 844315 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.2 < 1631206303 63231 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[list of ideas]] < 1631206304 223706 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/List%20of%20ideas > 1631206331 402750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87960&oldid=87953 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+4) 10 < 1631206339 549797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah you changed that < 1631206346 414563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :no one used this command, two people said to change the syntax to [[]], so I changed and now you used the old one ..D < 1631206372 472094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :...update in progress... < 1631206515 111119 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: what does '..D' mean? i've only ever seen it used by you < 1631206528 662005 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps equivalent to ':D'? < 1631206548 69580 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :What do we call classical computers on the wiki? I'm talking about machines whose complexity class is P. < 1631206585 246799 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hanif yes, those are my smiles < 1631206594 399134 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that statement doesn't quite make sense < 1631206604 437931 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :P is the class of problems decidable by a deterministic Turing machine in polynomial time < 1631206618 256621 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not really a class of machines < 1631206626 783881 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :..P ..) ,.) you see, it's handy since I also can do with another eye .,) or both ,,) < 1631206641 52554 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a class of decision problems < 1631206642 586871 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah cool < 1631206781 537046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: for indicating that the language should have an article: sometimes I just make a stub article; sometimes I mention the language on my user talk page under "TODO" < 1631206991 479709 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: Do you get what I mean, though? < 1631207000 525913 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not really < 1631207018 347848 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"deterministic Turing machine" is a class of machines < 1631207038 632111 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so is "nondeterministic Turing machine" < 1631207049 517411 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, lemme try again. What do we call the computers that aren't quantum computers, aren't time-travelling computers, aren't magically able to index exponential amounts of memory with constant-time access, don't have a way to talk to Merlin, etc. < 1631207072 831539 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably "classical computers" or "deterministic Turing machines" or just "Turing machines" < 1631207076 922071 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sorry, I would *love* to have an argument about complexity classes and jargon, but I feel like I'm being BS'd here.) < 1631207092 58498 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i'm not a wiki editor < 1631207100 24984 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing machines have non-trivial differences in behavior depending on the number of tapes. That's why I'm looking for a better term. < 1631207103 838357 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean... I have edited the wiki < 1631207116 196735 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :really? I thought you could simulate any number of tapes on one tape < 1631207143 495201 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :any fixed number that is < 1631207173 825424 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But how long does it take to run the simulaton? < 1631207203 980010 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :P is self-low, which means that a P machine can run a P machine as an oracle-like subroutine without leaving P. That's the sense in which a machine-oriented definition makes sense. < 1631207242 303005 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :As a concrete demonstration, the redlinked language Pola is complete for P, which means that its abstract machine and type theory are also complete: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266217730_Pola_a_language_for_PTIME_programming < 1631207294 938431 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Folklore is that simulating two tapes on one tape breaks this self-low property. < 1631207416 581322 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: A more pressing concern is that Turing machines don't distinguish P and NP easily, which makes cryptography analytically invisible. Aaronson has a paper demolishing the viewpoint: https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0502072 < 1631207448 571993 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This paper's mostly meant to dispel the hope that NP-complete machines are trivially physical, but in the process, it establishes a sense of classical computing so that P, BQP, and NP are contrasted.) < 1631207639 749991 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631207769 445817 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631208364 484121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( NP /\ coNP is also self-low, i think ) < 1631208441 194583 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Yeah. Indeed I think AP is self-low? Having trouble imagining an AP program which would refute that. < 1631208455 776112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( why did i add "i think" inside a thought bubble ) < 1631208462 456865 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*AP problem, even~ I'll try to be more precise, sorry. < 1631208479 107187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( at least you didn't . o O ( think ) ) < 1631208516 75761 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( -----### ) < 1631208549 706710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( ouch ) O o . hmm. > 1631208557 302588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87961&oldid=87960 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-26) 10 < 1631208902 495305 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hm apparently AP = PSPACE which i am pretty sure is self-low. < 1631208973 190614 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :although is self-lowness automatically preserved by such equations... < 1631209076 360408 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[w:Low (complexity)]] < 1631209076 422909 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh well < 1631209077 652560 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/1+ < 1631209100 679503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mmmm 1+ < 1631209104 848232 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the non-relativizing world, yes. Self-lowness doesn't relativize, which is kind of weird but also very nice because it gives us extreme confidence that e.g. P != PSPACE. (Also note that Time Hierarchy says that P != EXP, so this is expected.) < 1631209104 969114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i smell a bug < 1631209174 638878 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631209216 597056 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Client Quit < 1631209235 636501 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631209424 584418 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631209481 679868 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631210161 108399 :Oshawott!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:2844:9448:77ef:3b0b QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631210314 132564 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c PRIVMSG #esolangs :way cool. have to show. dynamic dispatch in my language: https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/dispatch.eg > 1631210407 612522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Swapfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87962&oldid=86645 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-121) 10/* Computational class */ > 1631210459 992745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87963&oldid=87266 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2775) 10/* Abstract algebraic languages */ new section < 1631210725 890283 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631210949 877667 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631211204 853919 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite > 1631211371 536512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87964&oldid=87961 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+8) 10 > 1631211471 542348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87965&oldid=87964 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+6) 10 < 1631211960 258966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`fromroman CI < 1631211961 289933 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :101 < 1631211962 212146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`fromroman ci < 1631211964 181908 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1631212009 845005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my stupid script only accepts lower case roman numerals. maybe I should fix that < 1631212019 760791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot fromroman CI < 1631212020 64060 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [frameworks] [french] [freenode] [frinkbot] [framesready] [freenode ops] [form] [fireme] [format] [forums] < 1631212101 596636 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar < 1631212765 726882 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631212838 807223 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Quit: quit < 1631213768 319960 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`fromroman ⅭⅠ < 1631213769 197870 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output. < 1631213776 802927 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ⅭⅠ < 1631213777 788564 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+216D ROMAN NUMERAL ONE HUNDRED] [U+2160 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE] < 1631213883 54741 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, there are dedicated combinations for each integer up to Ⅻ, presumably due to the clock thing. < 1631213902 302935 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ↈ < 1631213903 406698 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+2188 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND] < 1631213903 768042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIII or IV? < 1631213924 276992 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's Ⅳ here, but maybe there's a quadruple-Ⅰ somewhere too. < 1631213932 423113 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not in the same block though. < 1631213974 979013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: fromroman won't decode those because it originates form a golf I wrote for a golf competitions < 1631214015 158943 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ↅↆ < 1631214016 189915 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+2185 ROMAN NUMERAL SIX LATE FORM] [U+2186 ROMAN NUMERAL FIFTY EARLY FORM] > 1631214294 272371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87966&oldid=87965 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-26) 10 < 1631214422 602537 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you like an abbreviation TLWTNT (this is a legit word, totally not a typo)? < 1631214598 264242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :canonically (as decided by me while no others yet have adopted) this is used to mark a typo that you’ve just got an insight should be treated as is for greater good > 1631214598 384580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87967&oldid=87966 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+47) 10 > 1631214678 864087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87968&oldid=87967 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (+0) 10 < 1631214809 919929 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631217249 845572 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631220497 536802 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631221004 709331 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631221014 748618 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1631221035 542255 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631221087 999369 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631221171 260419 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1631222022 10036 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1631222149 603148 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631222225 991839 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631226429 874432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: what's the analogue of hill-climbing for minimization? < 1631226430 296006 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ( 0,0,0) (3)+ ( 0,0,1) fnord ( x 3) worked the same way? < 1631226457 68606 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: "I don't know" was an acceptable answer. < 1631226457 325113 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it has a line length limit, became regular, right? not a good definition < 1631226582 69765 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Valley-tumbling hth. < 1631226629 132013 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Funny how for that one specific method, you can do gradient ascent and descent both, but in the general case you're always climbing up that hill. < 1631226684 627478 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :downhill skiing < 1631226697 565968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: gradient descent < 1631226706 517476 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not the same though. < 1631226723 161379 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used "hill-climbing", trusting the reader to take the dual view. < 1631226736 418416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's more special < 1631226736 748557 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Not applicable, I have a discrete problem. < 1631226738 555315 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :more specific < 1631226760 709854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how about just local minimization? < 1631226762 85492 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want the serious answer, I think "climbing" is used for optimization in general, yes. < 1631226767 896907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I know it's not the same < 1631226773 370885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"valley dumbling" is nice < 1631226786 662660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, valley tumbling is cute :) < 1631226869 466123 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :When hill-climbing for minimization, I think you're just supposed to think of the height as measuring general solution gooditude, not specifically the value of it. < 1631226901 887074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"gooditude" hehe < 1631226990 965209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I have no real qualms about using the term < 1631227027 359590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I was curious whether there was an established term for it that I had somehow missed. < 1631227030 210800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so how about "valley climbing"? < 1631227058 411206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that... sounds wrong, somehow < 1631227072 630772 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(down into the abysss?) < 1631227133 356451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :abyss climbing? ravine climbing? canyon climbing? < 1631227148 489133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nah, I think just valley climbing < 1631227160 527455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :trench diving < 1631227634 153346 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There was an absurdist joke in a Finnish radio program once about Veikko Gustafsson, the lesser-known brother of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veikka_Gustafsson , a "flat land climber". But I don't remember the details well enough to do justice to it. Something about having a base camp in a ditch next to a field. < 1631228143 7659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reminded of this https://fr-fr.topographic-map.com/maps/zi6c/Volkspark-Prenzlauer-Berg/ ("Berg" = "mountain") < 1631228714 943071 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631228828 33025 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Well, you know, "vuori" = "mountain" too, and we've got https://zem.fi/tmp/monk-mountain.png < 1631228879 46175 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: nice :) < 1631229133 584971 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also a "red mountain" in the city centre that I think might be even a little flatter, that's where I grew up. < 1631229210 650583 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631229304 614653 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631232040 43840 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursaga < 1631232066 620559 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631234230 696228 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631234255 952342 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631235400 719288 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631235425 996955 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631235996 711058 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631236116 536548 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1631236405 114578 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c PRIVMSG #esolangs :man page: https://egel.tiiny.site/ < 1631237090 818179 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can it be downloaded in the man page format instead of HTML? < 1631237100 548617 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-007-125-106.178.007.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631237335 114007 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm guessing it would be the file at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/egel-lang/egel/master/man/egel.1 < 1631237947 189564 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c PRIVMSG #esolangs :yah, it's generated from markdown. took a while to get accustomed to this syntax again though. page has quirks but ah well < 1631237947 537235 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-001-195-022.178.001.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar > 1631240933 718993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Shift-eleven 5* 10New user account > 1631241116 858496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87969&oldid=87918 5* 03Shift-eleven 5* (+188) 10 > 1631241147 531963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87970&oldid=87969 5* 03Shift-eleven 5* (+0) 10 < 1631243320 728046 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631243345 631413 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631243347 198611 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631246200 555668 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631247680 644285 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631247841 853246 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :20:37:56 [[w:Low (complexity)]] < 1631247843 12558 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/1+ < 1631247847 507793 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[Low (complexity)]] < 1631247848 672582 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/List%20of%20complexity%20classes < 1631247865 790488 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION should do more work on that page < 1631247970 605298 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631247995 530599 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :those roman letters will have no place in my charset; the one he included them was probably not told that there are fonts < 1631248372 379757 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :11:58 < HackEso> ​[U+2188 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND] < 1631248375 9926 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow never saw this one before < 1631248376 291458 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks cool < 1631248422 894115 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost as cool as Multiocular O < 1631248429 123516 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :of which I am an official sponsor < 1631248557 754608 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just square < 1631248727 346680 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had tried to write to promote my project (perhaps one thing is I don't know what to write). Sometimes I did but not much happened. Sometimes I could not find it. Sometimes other things fail. In one case, I got a message about being banned due to my IP address, but the IP address they mentioned is not the correct address that I connected from, and there was a broken link to ask the administrator. < 1631248758 396814 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just had a dream about being physically hacked < 1631248855 421704 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was playing in some shooter video game and you know video games in dreams are always mixing with "reality", so we were shooting each other, getting loot, trying different weapons, and when you change or upgrade or idk, doing something with it there is a wall with a hole < 1631248945 128506 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :where you insert something and get ammo in return, and instead of ammo something long starting coming out, some copper ribbon that never ends, and the game provides nothing to cut it so I was effectively stuck taking out that bought infinite ribbon < 1631249025 390173 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now I don't know what to do. < 1631249086 321156 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38 where is that? < 1631249424 860637 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631250343 824484 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:6cc9:33fd:d92c:45c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631250850 130435 :feoh!~feoh@137.184.104.30 JOIN #esolangs feoh :Chris Patti < 1631252118 726051 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like this OEIS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpi%C5%84ski_number < 1631252163 952530 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for years looking at those sequences I never suspected there might be numbers added in between of already computated lists < 1631252241 765086 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :numbers are whack < 1631252265 850476 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example I could somehow find a yet unknown number in the list, so I put it in a search and it says no results < 1631252332 746121 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_or_Bust is a nice way to look at that particular situation; there are six "Colbert numbers" left, and that should slowly decrease to zero. < 1631252333 875432 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the sequence should not be there or should be somehow marked that it contains gaps < 1631252371 541723 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that progress might never end < 1631252447 408740 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, OEIS should probably indicate this somewhere. But I think it's fine for folks who are implementing sequences from OEIS to realize for themselves when a function is recursive or otherwise definitely gap-free. < 1631252499 951789 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so for any time you put some search sequence and find no results (or even if you find some!) there might be an unknown number of other OEIS sequences added like this one that won't show up in results < 1631252531 560477 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there is no point to hold it there if it does not show up by searching even such small numbers as 5 digits long or even shorter < 1631252647 89918 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it should have additional list of "proven to not be there" attached < 1631252671 23566 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the search results could say "maybe it is this OEIS, but definitely not this one" < 1631252754 952954 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or listing the yet unproved candidates, does not matter < 1631253585 972375 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://programming.guide/worlds-most-copied-so-snippet.html < 1631254707 640987 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1631255718 333644 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631256820 754929 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you automatically decide what looks better? "1 mon 3 weeks" or "7 weeks 2 days" or "51 days" < 1631258139 155705 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1631259494 518056 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: brb < 1631259553 801153 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631261168 612497 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631261385 617172 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631261733 416967 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com < 1631262452 94616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I's like to complain about the touchscreen UI of the self-service checkout machine in a supermarket. the problematic case is when I buy a few, say 5, normal items, plus 12 cheap candy bars. I want to be able to check on on the touchscreen interface if it counted the right number of candy bars. the touchscreen displays the last 9 items that you scanned, which in this case will be "candy bar 33g 89 / < 1631262458 221013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89". there's a touchable pair of arrows that scroll the list up. if you press the up arrow, it tries to scroll up one full screen (9 lines), but doesn't scroll further than the top of the list. so you see "bread 1kg 360 / milk 1.4 1l 260 / garbage bag 35l 850 < 1631262464 226769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :/ fruit-flavored juice 470 / sausage 1120 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89 / candy bar 33g 89". if you scroll down again, it just goes to the previous state. VERY USEFUL, darned interface. < 1631262496 723848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cashier did show me the workaround though: hold the feed button on the recipt printer, check how many candy bar lines are on the paper recipt so far < 1631262837 504786 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is one of the best things about touchpad vs desktop with mouse < 1631262868 226414 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't count or even follow things that you scroll in chunks < 1631263166 571463 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:d1b3:349a:ee3f:a17e JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631265249 481911 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, I mean, some things have smooth scrolling < 1631265322 330177 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least where I live though, all the supermarket checkout things are touchscreens - I don't think I've ever really bought a lot of a single item like that though. seems like they could do it well with a scrollbar, but it might "clutter the interface" or something < 1631265526 548303 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631265682 354442 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1631265866 935611 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they just have to print "x6" < 1631267118 718590 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Sainsbury's machines do group identical items together. Or at least the handheld scanner you grab to scan items as you go, I don't remember if the traditional self-checkout machines do. < 1631267266 903039 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1631268578 564817 :imode!~imode@user/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631268586 656827 :spruit11_!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:5542:2068:efaa:d531 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631268810 581726 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:d1b3:349a:ee3f:a17e QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631270305 815656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION growls < 1631270327 478934 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`python3 -cn="/hackenv/bin/fromroman";s=open(n).read();o=s.replace('{(sh','{uc((sh').replace('0]}','0])}');print(o);open(n,"w").write(o);print("write successful"); < 1631270330 70047 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$r{$t}=$_;$t}k for s""\$"..4e3;print $r{uc((shift=~/(\w+)/)[0])},$/ \ \ write successful < 1631270341 458966 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`fromroman LVII < 1631270342 738934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :57 < 1631270345 344971 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`fromroman lvii < 1631270346 201809 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :57 < 1631270401 424183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/generated/numpy.matrix.html "It is no longer recommended to use this class, even for linear algebra. Instead use regular arrays." would be *far* more helpful with a transition guide that explains how to do matrix operations the new way < 1631270434 775340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since, apparently, A*B on arrays is pointwise, leading to *huge* confusion. < 1631270472 376920 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: try either the .dot() method or, with new enough python, the @ infix operator < 1631270524 645825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Oh now that I knew what I'm looking for that information was easy to find. < 1631270567 899897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, still missing one piece of the puzzle... but I guess that will fall into place momentarily < 1631270706 732060 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, since this may not be easy to find, if you want matrix computations in C++, I recommend http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/ < 1631270737 291457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have used that one, maybe on your recommendation; I forgot. < 1631270813 85898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :regardless, my complaint is that "use arrays instead" doesn't give any hint as to changed operator semantics < 1631270858 961531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631270859 277859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you're supposed to infer that from "It has certain special operators, such as * (matrix multiplication) and ** (matrix power)." < 1631270862 207995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I didn't. > 1631271087 731977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87971&oldid=87939 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+222) 10 < 1631271172 558880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may have come across this issue before and forgotten about it. > 1631271213 207555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87972&oldid=87971 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+12) 10 < 1631271336 343776 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually this whole experience would've been a lot better if numpy didn't allow me to write matrix * array expressions. < 1631271415 331591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because for the first half hour of debugging this I was quite unaware that I was juggling with two different types and getting into a huge mess because of that > 1631271467 210949 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87973&oldid=87930 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+51) 10 < 1631271740 884910 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"would be *far* more helpful" was never a consideration in pithon docs < 1631272151 242537 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I wasn't even aware that there was a "matrix" class in numpy < 1631272172 67236 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I ever constructed one; but then I haven't written my numpy code < 1631272182 20972 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sort of have a love-hate relationship with numpy < 1631272206 737996 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's well-written and well-known enough, but has too many odd quirks and irregularities\ < 1631272234 168785 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least it has a nice python interface, also a C API, and its indexes are 0-based. those alone make it better than most array libraries. < 1631272309 769056 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and designing a good easily usable numerical array library without odd quirks is a very hard problem, possibly impossible, possibly just not yet solved > 1631273368 802038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87974&oldid=87973 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+176) 10fix truth-machine > 1631274482 632244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87975&oldid=87974 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+123) 10add implementation > 1631274595 198820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87976&oldid=87972 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+203) 10update > 1631274770 435628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mogus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87977&oldid=87975 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+2507) 10add hello world > 1631275732 822308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:VilgotanL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87978&oldid=85328 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+12) 10add mogus to language list < 1631277192 146069 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[🐢]] < 1631277193 305944 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/%F0%9F%90%A2 < 1631277205 821255 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wiki 🐢 < 1631277206 982255 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : 🐢 is an esolang by VilgotanL created for an esojam in Truttle1's discord server, it uses an accumulator and a cell tape that can both hold unbounded integers. https://esolangs.org/wiki/%F0%9F%90%A2 > 1631277707 641595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87979 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+1383) 10Created page with "Suscript is a cell-based esolang by people in the amogus esolang crew, this page is a WIP. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" |- | eject ''"string"'' || Pri..." < 1631277811 938851 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :amogus esolang crew? < 1631278016 207478 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is some alternative reality with Not applicable and other guys who make languages every week > 1631278612 955476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87980&oldid=87979 5* 03VilgotanL 5* (+179) 10add computational class < 1631279000 931511 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631279935 428217 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631279966 919240 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631281507 998316 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1631281537 624116 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631281831 887978 :archenoth!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:3593:e920:b3b6:f6a4 JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth < 1631281918 371819 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1631281922 696949 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631282040 722599 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow this was long ago https://i.imgur.com/fTVRjAl.png < 1631282062 357979 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :gonna reincarnate < 1631283174 693346 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631283582 631573 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631283873 541382 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1631284879 541229 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode < 1631286095 652675 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1631286569 313001 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1631288623 932076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of complexity classes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87981&oldid=87267 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1644) 10Add a section on L. < 1631288654 99349 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :keegan: ^^^ Please LMK if this is headed in the right direction. I'm trying to be precise while not wasting words. > 1631289211 948009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03G cat101 5* 10New user account > 1631289408 966873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87982&oldid=87970 5* 03G cat101 5* (+154) 10 < 1631289413 772060 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also want to complain about touch screens; I don't like touch screen, and I think using a keyboard would be better > 1631289429 554893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BuxRo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87983&oldid=58964 5* 03G cat101 5* (+0) 10fixed the typo < 1631289519 160037 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :touchscreen keyboard? ..D > 1631289586 700652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87984&oldid=87926 5* 03AceKiron 5* (-8818) 10Replaced content with "'''School''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] developed by [[User:AceKiron]], it originally started development on June 15th 2021, but has been deprecated. Later it..." < 1631289588 902026 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/An%20esoteric%20programming%20language%20(ess-oh-terr-ick),%20or%20esolang,%20is%20a%20computer%20programming%20language%20designed%20to%20experiment%20with%20weird%20ideas,%20to%20be%20hard%20to%20program%20in,%20or%20as%20a%20joke,%20rather%20than%20for%20practical%20use. https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:AceKiron < 1631289595 294908 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops < 1631289604 930978 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :time to implement the ignore < 1631289839 559168 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631289971 611054 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631290152 502234 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: looks like there's already a channel for esolangs https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO-PlVJRfGIVZuzu6e_0qOvqRnM_TdNye < 1631290232 423252 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hanif: Delightful! < 1631291041 783016 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs : int-e: I wasn't even aware that there was a "matrix" class in numpy => b_jonas: AFAIK today that class is just for backward compatibility, it’s suggested to use ndarrays all the way < 1631291095 220469 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs : there is some alternative reality with Not applicable and other guys who make languages every week => there is a discord server somewhere, there was a ton of people when I once checked what that was < 1631291106 844412 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@messages? < 1631291106 936103 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, no messages today. < 1631291109 629986 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631291434 563252 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631292405 265685 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631292436 921689 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik > 1631292534 716851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Velik14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87985&oldid=87958 5* 03Nakilon 5* (-2) 10test [[the]] ignore < 1631292546 616811 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631292729 55142 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thumbnail for Whitespace video on that channel < 1631292808 612537 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif > 1631292896 246072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87986&oldid=87984 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+458) 10 < 1631293943 633894 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631294947 355967 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631295016 951260 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river JOIN #esolangs river :river < 1631295286 868016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf *is* velik doing there... turn [[link]] into URL, fetch that URL, then turn that into an URL again? < 1631295515 173866 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[]] isn't fetching < 1631295599 676132 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :only searches to make full url < 1631295611 747931 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the \wiki is fetching < 1631295646 689891 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and makes url too because why not, the response already has text and you might want to read more < 1631295892 598924 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in < 1631295923 958096 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631296019 902300 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Client Quit < 1631296114 313063 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631296136 380067 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631296136 625916 :aarchi!sid486183@id-486183.highgate.irccloud.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1631296147 844354 :faxlore!sid505520@id-505520.highgate.irccloud.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631296201 612345 :benji!~benji@user/benji QUIT :Client Quit < 1631296233 966358 :faxlore!sid505520@highgate.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs faxlore :faxlore < 1631296290 405116 :pikhq!sid394595@user/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester < 1631296321 4093 :benji!~benji@user/benji JOIN #esolangs benji :benji < 1631296329 611108 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631296349 372483 :aarchi!sid486183@id-486183.highgate.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs aarchi :aarchi < 1631296533 360904 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: so how did that message trigger that particular result which evidently includes contents of [[esoteric programming language]]? < 1631296578 540490 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631296722 161082 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's not contents, that's URL of the article ..D < 1631296724 813879 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's that long < 1631296775 390397 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because long name < 1631296849 790898 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably needs category Unusable for programming btw < 1631296880 32470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh. So that is a valid link... but why didn't it end up on the more obvious https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language? < 1631296948 378228 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, my IRC client does not include the trailing "." so if you click you don't hit the correct address < 1631296992 903577 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs : /shrug https://i.imgur.com/Wyye3Id.png < 1631297033 100673 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :same with brainfuck -- wiki seems to dislike exact title match < 1631297390 559389 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631297654 617077 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631297972 42447 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :i've had to resort to my search engine to search wikipedia several times < 1631298475 735890 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :your search engine? < 1631298507 259542 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :to find me the matching wikipedia article < 1631298525 557184 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631298565 495561 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :(mostly when i'm not bothered to spend effort in spelling correctly) < 1631298697 599412 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631298712 349305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"my search engine" is usually similar to "my car" < 1631298727 700256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's the one I use, it doesn't mean I built it. < 1631298738 410823 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631298805 575256 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631298891 299667 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631299437 135671 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, there was a similar thing where the first hit for https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=Brainfuck&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 is "Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php" (which again is a silly title rather than a piece of a URL). > 1631299462 696516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87987&oldid=87968 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-55) 10 < 1631299491 151211 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might dislike exact matches in the results list because it has a separate dedicated message ("there is a page named X on this wiki") for those. > 1631299511 204827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSInstruction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87988&oldid=87987 5* 03Dominicentek 5* (-2) 10 < 1631299531 894778 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've no idea how it does ranking though. < 1631300072 179035 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can make it select the one closest by levenshtein if this will happen a lot < 1631300143 227689 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one of top 5 < 1631300802 380547 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631301030 560022 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631302193 453303 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631302382 559394 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631302837 754225 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1631303164 624276 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1631303880 570700 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631304318 313894 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: i suspect your definition of s,t-forest accessibility is wrong, because it looks like just s,t-connectivity, which is NL-complete. < 1631304348 792807 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i don't know what the former _should_ be, unless it's just that the graph must be a forest.) < 1631304523 921286 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631304669 302942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, "The same problem for undirected graphs is called undirected s-t connectivity and was shown to be L-complete by Omer Reingold." < 1631304778 524277 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i may have known that already but almost forgotten < 1631304807 663427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION never actually took a class on complexity theory, just picked up some here and there < 1631305066 246010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: btw L and NL are also self-low. < 1631305236 490718 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, one of my favorite facts about L is that showing arithmetic is in it has some surprisingly deep parts (division, base conversion, and multiplying lists of numbers) < 1631305269 184097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's easy to show multiplying just two numbers is in L, or adding a list) < 1631305348 588426 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think perhaps once you have those deep parts you can also do power series < 1631305370 533720 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you should get trigonometry etc. as well < 1631305392 359755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiplying a list of numbers is in L? < 1631305393 194812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow < 1631305508 222553 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-001-195-022.178.001.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esolangs : "my search engine" is usually similar to "my car" – Or, as some languages would have it, “my search engine”, not “my search engine”. < 1631305788 187910 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well, integers at least. i haven't thought carefully about floating point. < 1631305845 114927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :all of these deep things work via doing arithmetic modulo a heap of small primes... the hard part is converting that back to a number in normal format < 1631305894 993800 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :easy in P (use chinese remainder theorem) < 1631306111 963050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the clue if i recall correct is to find out just how to _compare_ numbers in chinese remainder format. which i've forgotten the details of. < 1631306116 830200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :*correctly < 1631306193 829267 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, much of this, perhaps all, works in the even lower complexity class TC^0. < 1631306218 200078 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but i found it mindblowing enough to get L) < 1631307050 397780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: sure, in P I can do it too, because you can multiply two numbers in linear time, so multiply a list of numbers in quadratic time < 1631307069 481697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you don't even need to know that youc an multiply two numbers in linear time for that < 1631307072 486086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :quadratic is enough < 1631307125 217711 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :mhm < 1631307201 606337 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname < 1631307208 937677 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm a corollary of this is that you can do factorial in linear working space < 1631307227 339641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(with write-only output not counted) < 1631307391 923815 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1631307501 614254 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1631307530 731887 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631307577 704117 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1631308097 552834 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: I may have misread the 1986 paper I linked, but it showed s,t-connectivity for "forests", which includes both directed and undirected graphs. I am happy to learn that I've misunderstood. < 1631309770 112958 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? zoo < 1631309772 793811 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :zoo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1631309774 435113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? complexity zoo < 1631309776 46646 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :complexity zoo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1631309781 730732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, what's the new link to it? < 1631309781 929907 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: que se fnord!!" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord < 1631309794 408873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://paste.lisp.org/display/fnord ? < 1631309916 241035 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: forests are by definition acyclic, unlike general graphs. also the directed version has an additional stipulation "outdegree zero or one". < 1631309976 811743 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(under "Given:") < 1631310222 556337 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the cycle detection listed seems to be undirected < 1631310512 584694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: however, it is a famous theorem (the one i quoted above) that general undirected graph connectivity is L-complete, which was not known yet at the time of that paper (UCONN in FL is listed as an open problem). < 1631310597 520682 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :(by Omer Reingold) < 1631311039 42760 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: Hm, okay, thanks. < 1631311648 677055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1631312451 572118 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :Maeve Sproule < 1631312902 302156 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1631312999 912917 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :should I visit a fest tomorrow to take a selfie with 1 mln subs youtuber or should I stay at home keeping distancing < 1631321150 907469 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :WDYT, if an IRC client send a periodic PING to avoid the dreaded "TCP connection was lost but the client has nothing to write" issue, should it bother to try to also verify the server responds with a corresponding PONG, or is that superfluous? It's definitely not necessary for the TCP thing, but hypothetically there might be a server that continues to speak TCP but not respond to commands. And < 1631321152 331698 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :often it's used to estimate latency, but that's a different feature. < 1631321324 636089 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I check manually. I have the F2 key bound to PING and then I can see if PONG is received or not. (For automated IRC clients, it could check automatically) < 1631321421 663488 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, this would be for an automaton. Just wondering if it's a failure mode that really needs worrying about, assuming I don't care about estimating the latency to try to jump servers if it's too high or w/e. < 1631321700 118897 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least in my experience, if I try to PING and it isn't working, there will eventually be a connection error anyways. However, it might be worth checking after some (configurable) timeout anyways. < 1631321769 616405 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It has also happened to me that I was able to receive but not send. In this case, eventually the server will disconnect me due to a ping timeout. < 1631321776 240538 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :What if it continues to speak TCP and respond to pings, but not to other commands? < 1631321829 847322 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then I would think that the server is defective, probably. < 1631321867 121459 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I could have it privmsg me to solve a CAPTCHA. But then what if the server sends that message to some other human who responds to it? < 1631321891 34097 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631321905 672552 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1631321926 730374 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can write a question that you do not expect anyone else to know the answer < 1631323874 581994 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1631325197 583415 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN #esolangs DutchIngraham :dutch < 1631338021 269828 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie I always thought client is exactly supposed to respond to PING with PONG, not just send periodic PING on their own < 1631338288 443931 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if believe this line https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/43bf3dfa932e78f19b656520d29629c9bf94c5bc/lib/nakiircbot.rb#L99 Quakenet used this command for measuring the latency too < 1631338414 634307 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean when I was making this comment I was reusing some old Quakenet bot that IIRC it had the timestamp parsing in it < 1631338437 533150 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but as it says in case of Libera there is just server name there > 1631340529 916469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87989&oldid=87986 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+391) 10Added the PUSH and POP memory operants > 1631346855 706168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87990 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+174) 10Created page with "A **matrix** is a data structure that can serve as an programming language's memory. The number of stacks may vary. Many languages have other methods of data storing as well." > 1631346867 175255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87991&oldid=87990 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+3) 10 > 1631346943 770001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87992&oldid=87991 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+105) 10 < 1631346977 856490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I check PONG replies anyway to know when the server has processed my previous commands, which I need to know to not send more commands to the server that fit in its buffer, or else it would quit me. < 1631346989 975603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at that point you probably want a timeout too > 1631347102 825580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Matrix-based14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87993 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+181) 10Created page with "Languages primarily using one or more [[Matrix_(data_structure)|matrix]]s for storage. ==See also== * [[:Category:Queue-based]] * [[:Category:Stack-based]] Category:Langu..." > 1631347155 634107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87994&oldid=87989 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+225) 10 > 1631347198 238876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87995&oldid=87992 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+10) 10 > 1631347260 744418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87996&oldid=87995 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+46) 10 < 1631347580 618591 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat < 1631347731 614058 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1631348482 885807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87997&oldid=87996 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+1) 10 > 1631350059 25815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87998&oldid=87997 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+64) 10 > 1631350270 49272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87999&oldid=87994 5* 03AceKiron 5* (-2) 10 < 1631351137 771187 :spruit11_!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:5542:2068:efaa:d531 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. < 1631351159 585555 :spruit11!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:5542:2068:efaa:d531 JOIN #esolangs * :anon < 1631352700 569058 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631352773 364510 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1631353732 667369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88000&oldid=87999 5* 03AceKiron 5* (+15) 10/* Memory operants */ < 1631353890 611910 :Trieste_!T@user/pilgrim JOIN #esolangs pilgrim :T < 1631353906 337919 :Trieste!T@user/pilgrim QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1631354282 629927 :Oshawott!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:a4ca:327d:3946:a076 JOIN #esolangs Archenoth :archenoth < 1631354491 842338 :archenoth!~archenoth@2604:3d09:681:f00:3593:e920:b3b6:f6a4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1631358265 931216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Bsoelch 5* 10New user account < 1631359240 620501 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631359561 726711 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I mean, the client does need to respond to PING with a PONG, but that's a different thing. < 1631359830 196424 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :does IRC need ping and pong? doesn't TCP already have this basically < 1631360044 329183 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :TCP has an *optional* keepalive option. But I don't think it's very popular compared to application protocol heartbeats. < 1631360304 585185 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As for not sending too many things, I'm using a credit-based system (each byte costs so and so, some commands have an extra surcharge, the client gets credit at a fixed rate capped to some maximum value) to approximate that. That's what ircd (at least the real one, the one used at IRCnet) does on the server side. Of course it's not exactly exact due to network latency and so on, but it's been < 1631360306 332498 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :working just fine. < 1631360423 919360 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :On keepalive, IIRC the default timeouts tend to be huge (hours), and configurable only system-wide. > 1631360892 59480 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88001&oldid=87959 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+20) 10/* fixed mistakes*/ > 1631360954 919645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Meow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88002&oldid=88001 5* 03Martsadas 5* (+27) 10 < 1631362551 611615 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631364637 284708 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1631364758 395881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88003&oldid=42721 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10Confusion > 1631364768 574816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88004&oldid=87998 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10Confusion > 1631364777 549351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Matrix (data structure)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88005&oldid=88004 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-17) 10m < 1631365081 621661 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631365947 286739 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1631365973 624355 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat > 1631367619 409097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 034gboframram 5* 10New user account > 1631368048 13171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88006&oldid=87982 5* 034gboframram 5* (+184) 10/* Introductions */ < 1631369837 646251 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1631370761 528988 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631370802 157791 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631370840 920366 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631371211 50757 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631371229 920436 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631371315 855745 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631371333 921406 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631371528 816345 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631371651 254541 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631372585 567933 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631372602 583585 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://pastebin.com/px6HUCLV how can this binary be decoded? < 1631372608 704412 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any esoteric lang? < 1631372798 569145 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :normsaa: Where did it come from? < 1631372834 537777 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin A friend < 1631372850 364107 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 PRIVMSG #esolangs :He wrote it < 1631372986 601521 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Any ideas? < 1631373806 155274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( it's too bad that the flag doesn't identify the CTF this is from ) < 1631373819 605134 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :normsaa: tell your "friend" to solve the problem properly, by themselves. < 1631374744 88851 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also tell your friend to fix the overlapping assignment, which probably breaks the script. < 1631375499 615875 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631375792 713515 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif JOIN #esolangs hanif :hanif < 1631376217 539157 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1631376698 490358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: yes, IRC sort of requires PING and PONG for at least three reasons. some servers (not freenode, I haven't looked at libera yet) require that you send *one* pong after connecting, copying an unpredictable code from the PING that the server sends, as a sort of anti-spam measure. second, some servers, including freenode (again, haven't looked at libera yet) require that the client sends something < 1631376704 480903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :every five minutes, to ensure that it can drop clients that are disconnected. it ensures that clients do this by sending pings, you don't need to reply to those technically, but replying to pings is an easy way to satisfy this requirement. < 1631376878 890010 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thirdly, you can use pings for flow control. the way IRC works is that the server has a very small input buffer for each client, and if the client sends more than that input buffer over what the server has handled locally, it disconnects the client. the server handles commands for one client in series, so if you pay attention to local replies (replies from that server, not other servers), you can < 1631376884 898599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes tell how much the server handled, and so how full the queue is. but not all commands have local replies, or the local reply isn't always easy to identify, so sometimes you want to send a command just to force a local reply. the best command for that is a local PING (as opposed to a PING to a different server), since that does nothing but send you a reply. < 1631377254 638700 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631377283 346744 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631377320 88776 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631377337 356651 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro JOIN #esolangs * :velik < 1631377439 144231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wait, do you actually recognize what that is, or do you just know it's homework from what it looks like and how they simultaneously cross-post on multiple channels? < 1631377829 332662 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I was half-expecting doing a web search for the flag value would tell you where it's from (surely all of those have answers posted online?), but apparently it doesn't. < 1631377865 978863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yeah. which /could/ indicate that it's an ongoing one, or just that it's very obscure < 1631377887 884915 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search. Tip: Try using words that might appear on the page that you’re looking for. For example, 'cake recipes' instead of 'how to make a cake'." < 1631377900 506179 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mmm, cake. < 1631377977 538504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o ( glados instead of cake ) < 1631378286 273406 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :google gave me this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMrd8PoxvPc, but the author doesn't do this challenge in the video < 1631378286 610234 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake < 1631378316 790372 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the ctf site linked is dead and unarchived < 1631378665 122722 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :normsaa < 1631378803 907405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there's technically a third, most unlikely case: that it's from a site like Advent of Code that gives every logged in user a different test input < 1631379598 61767 :Koen_!~Koen@77.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631379626 832458 :j-bot!~jbot@irc.supplies QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631379640 822041 :j-bot!~jbot@irc.supplies JOIN #esolangs * :jevalbot < 1631380046 373473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1631380883 589714 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631381435 433456 :normsaa90!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631381595 890679 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1631381783 315287 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631381969 889920 :normsaa90!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1631382012 607933 :hanif!~hanif@gateway/tor-sasl/hanif QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1631382099 256738 :normsaa91!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631382105 889839 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1631383327 798958 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631383543 787140 :immibis!~hexchat@62.156.144.218 JOIN #esolangs immibis :realname < 1631383547 550937 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1631383941 890248 :normsaa91!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1631384099 820496 :Guest81!~Guest81@70.109.131.188 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest81 < 1631384099 820530 :Guest81!~Guest81@70.109.131.188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :h < 1631384141 460548 :Guest81!~Guest81@70.109.131.188 QUIT :Client Quit < 1631384162 422355 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631385062 164925 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Site compatible with IE 10 or above, Mozila [sic], ..." is probably not a good sign. < 1631385210 666239 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ow < 1631385254 527258 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? tlwtnt < 1631385257 365965 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :tlwtnt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1631385270 546866 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ow! < 1631385424 431075 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wp ow < 1631385426 713781 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : OW -- Wikimedia disambiguation page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OW < 1631385503 169589 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like sometimes there is a default page and sometimes not < 1631385533 475014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: does it also have a link to where you can download Acrobat Reader to view their PDFs and the Java and Adobe Flash plugins, without mentioning Oracle for Java? < 1631385571 40802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also do they recommend at an least 256 color and at least 1024x768 pixel resolution display for best view? < 1631385654 605469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :very long ago I made a script to say "best viewed with Mozilla" or "best viewed with Internet Explorer", always the other one than the viewer is using < 1631385679 204363 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1631385709 320587 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas do you know who chukchas are? < 1631385719 224467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1631385742 827187 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :ethnic Siberians who live deep in tundra with deers < 1631385747 874719 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a joke < 1631385782 762668 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: What will do if neither is use? < 1631385802 745417 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :smth like: "to keep chukcha busy give him a paper with 'read on the other side' written on both sides" < 1631385811 919460 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: lol, evil < 1631385880 857887 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wp chukcha < 1631385882 13194 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : Chukchi people -- ethnic group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukchi_people < 1631385921 293568 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, even not Siberia < 1631386260 385970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: one of them was the default. I don't remember which. < 1631386339 725726 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It didn't have those other things. Maybe it would have elsewhere on the site. > 1631386633 34925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07School14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88007&oldid=88000 5* 03AceKiron 5* (-80) 10 < 1631386825 918611 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1631386868 234583 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the reason why some servers ping during connection, and don't connect until they receive a matching pong, is to prevent non-IRC-related programs being tricked into connecting to IRC < 1631386893 394360 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your ircd ignores invalid commands (and many do), it isn't hard to put a segment of valid IRC commands in the middle of, say, an HTTP POST request < 1631386899 842571 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a good reason but only requires one PING right at the start < 1631386915 354675 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember a spam attack on Freenode that worked by exactly that mechanism < 1631386921 99757 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can create a web page with a script that causes the viewers to spam IRC, and this has been used to create IRC worms in the past < 1631386941 392036 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would POST a set of IRC commands that cause the user to join a bunch of channels and spam them with the URL of the page < 1631386944 890692 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1631386945 862346 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty funny really < 1631386963 716108 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :HAMRADIO < 1631386970 622976 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Postel's Law sounds good but is absolutely terrible for security < 1631386985 722652 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :Postel's Law is bad < 1631386994 76856 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also bad for long term maintainability < 1631387002 945217 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i remember that spam attack, that was funny < 1631387014 91688 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :\wp Postel's Law < 1631387015 245044 :velik!~velik@nakilon.pro PRIVMSG #esolangs : robustness principle -- design guideline for software that states: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle < 1631387154 485715 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as users expect the "best guess" behavior of implementations will continue working forever < 1631387171 173737 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :leading to the codification of insanely complex behavior as exemplified by the WHATWG HTML spec < 1631387208 251974 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do actually like what that HTML spec has done, though < 1631387226 531850 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it means that there are now set boundaries for exactly what you are and aren't allowed to do in HTML < 1631387233 487239 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1631387249 241540 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a regrettable necessity based on the early days of the web being dominated by ad hoc systems and postel's law < 1631387254 600096 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is Postellish in some respects, too, e.g. saying that web pages must be in UTF-8 but giving long complicated instructions for what to do if they aren't < 1631387326 581906 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631387385 859796 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, one related problem I've been having recently, which may be unsolvably difficult, and Stack Overflow has not been helpful: < 1631387406 369694 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :given a URL, which characters in it can be safely percent-decoded without changing the meaning of the URL < 1631387410 947854 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :? < 1631387502 174773 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to write an HTML sanitizer and would prefer to avoid allowing people to put obfuscated URLs through it, but it's so hard to figure out the rules for what will and what won't work < 1631387548 802858 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :generate string of all chars and escape it with some very common library used for that need < 1631387555 96396 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :to see what chars it will process < 1631387650 557655 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: that basically means assuming that the library is correct, which it probably won't be < 1631387655 202546 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty sure all libraries will process different set of chars ) < 1631387668 675141 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is probably no correct library < 1631387672 804553 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I have been trying various test strings on various browsers and one httpd, to see what happens < 1631387686 491479 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe some Chrome is implemented "correctly" but it won't provide a library < 1631387690 914681 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(testing a wide range of httpds would be frustrating) < 1631387722 523115 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I did learn throughout all this is that the URL path component %2e%2e is in fact equivalent to .. and will cancel out the previous component < 1631387738 957721 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which seems like an unwise decision from a security point of view, that's just asking for path traversal vulnerabilities < 1631387743 552693 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the possible achievable "correctness" of your tool is limited by how correct the servers are < 1631387761 953645 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :many of them work differently about URL escaping < 1631387773 516404 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1631387790 696460 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the only real option here is to have a parameter for what sort of dubious-looking escapings the user wants to exclude < 1631387797 178577 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also additional rules and bugs in redirects < 1631388128 905744 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :teaching velik wolfram alpha, somehow it took the whole day to make 10 tests, and it's only a piece of Math examples; there are three other topics, maybe I'll make most of them tomorrow < 1631388737 750497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "prevent non-IRC-related programs being tricked into connecting to IRC" => yes, that might be part of the reason. < 1631388826 138964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"avoid allowing people to put obfuscated URLs through it" => yeah, that's probably impossible < 1631391235 39946 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Normally I don't pay *that* much attention to update sizes, but now updating blender wants to install "libembree3-3" that will take half a gigabyte of disk. < 1631391345 294936 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a pretty big library! < 1631391378 853493 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it just seems so wrong to let people post arbitrary URLs on, say, forums or the like, when you're supposed to be sanitising the content < 1631391400 525375 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Intel® Embree is a collection of high performance ray tracing kernels that helps graphics application engineers to improve the performance of their photorealistic rendering application." I feel like they've probably got versions specifically tuned for a bazillion different (Intel) CPU models. < 1631391501 605905 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, it's a single 485223648-byte .so file. < 1631391527 171287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure I see why, except for the part where you might sanitize the protocol part (the part before the first colon) and add a max length < 1631391583 88767 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I suspect that you only need around eight different versions of your code to get peak performance on all 64-bit Intel CPUs < 1631391589 441367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: though most of the time you'd probably throw in that HTML attribute that hints to search engines that this is a link by a third party submission and the search engine shouldn't think your site is deliberately linking to kiddy porn < 1631391602 990197 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and maybe another four or five more for AMD < 1631391622 24250 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've already been looking through the list of rel= attributes < 1631391627 805473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it won't take away all the responsibility about what links you host, but you can't generally fix that by just looking at the URL < 1631391642 180218 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think probably at least nofollow and noreferrer should be in there for external links by default < 1631391677 243851 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you absolutely want to whitelist protocols though because of javascript: links though < 1631391681 986223 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although noreferrer is interesting because you can also set an HTTP header that tells the browser to noreferrer everything < 1631391700 777557 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I explicitly turned it off on my website (as in, I outright said in the headers that I know this header exists and I'm choosing not to use it), which makes some security checkers really annoyed < 1631391720 464813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol "only need around eight different versions of your code to get peak performance on all 64-bit Intel CPUs" < 1631391733 605324 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I mean that there isn't a combinatorial explosion < 1631391752 495200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then you want AMD and code running on GPU and a port for ARM64 etc < 1631391776 297627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's because it's really hard to make CPUs so there are only two or three companies making x86 cpus at a time < 1631391787 190556 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( rel=dontclickfortheloveofgod ) < 1631391788 800069 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, in practice nowadays, I think you can get decent performance for CPU-bound code by writing a post-AVX2 version for most people, and a pre-AVX2 version (aiming for maximum compatibility) for people who are running on really old computers < 1631391802 511052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they mostly develop at most three lines of them in parallel each < 1631391813 858893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one expensive, one home, and one low-power laptop one < 1631391814 429367 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :optimising for AMD does seem to be significantly different from optimising for Intel, though < 1631391841 616743 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, if the program isn't memory-bound, the next most relevant bottleneck on Intel is normally instruction dispatch, whereas on AMD it's usually something else < 1631391847 799083 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and more importantly, you only need to make different versions of a few performance-critical functions, not everything in your code < 1631391901 981210 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there might still be a combinatorial explosion if you want versions of your code that differ in ways other than the CPU hardware < 1631391909 573714 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came up against this in the fizzbuzz I've been writing over the last year or so < 1631391940 382881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to read a vector from memory, then do two instructions with that vector as one argument and a vector in a register as a second argument < 1631391952 374677 :riv!~river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :how is the fizzbuzz coming?? < 1631391954 419613 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on Intel, it's optimal to read the vector from memory twice < 1631391968 216079 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on AMD, you want to read it into a register and then use it from there < 1631391993 815975 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is because Intel is bottlenecked on instruction decode so simply using fewer instructions is a gain, the L1 cache can handle the second read < 1631392013 504301 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yes. It is a C++ project. It's possible there's a combinatorial explosion of templates instead. There isn't that much code in terms of source code lexically. < 1631392020 843814 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on AMD the instruction decode is faster but the L1 cache has less bandwidth, so you can spare an extra instruction to read into a register to spare the cache bandwidth < 1631392030 486372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that might change for future AMD cpus... < 1631392036 355641 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :riv: I think I have a plan, the issue is just finding the time to write this code < 1631392066 613401 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's possible, but AMD seem to have been going down the path of using hyperthreading to make use of the extra instruction dispatch capability < 1631392085 180082 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry, I meant dispatch not decode, AMD is bottlenecked on decode too but that only matters if you aren't in a loop because of the µop cache) < 1631392102 107210 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I agree that bottlenecking on either memory access or instruction dispatch is typical these days, the execution times don't matter as much, unless you are specifically writing matrix multiplication inner loops or things like that < 1631392148 458660 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even matrix multiplication is bottlenecked on memory access, most of the fast techniques for it are based on trying to avoid cache spills < 1631392205 819234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, so it's only the inner loops where you actually have to care about the execution times of these floating point multiplication-add instructions. < 1631392222 724363 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's hard to think of something that wouldn't bottleneck on memory access – maybe things like prime factorization, or pathfinding < 1631392260 628829 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, fused multiply-adds are fast, but that doesn't really matter, they're more beneficial in terms of accuracy than they are in terms of speed < 1631392295 52313 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiply then add is 2 cycles latency, fused multiply-add is 1 cycle latency, and they both have enormous throughput (values correct for recent Intel and also recent AMD) < 1631392435 309514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, the current CPUs are so optimized for that that you basically can't run out of multiplication units. I remember there was a time when the CPU was better at fused multiply-add than additions < 1631392465 167008 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :integer additions do actually beat all the floating-point stuff on most modern CPUs, though < 1631392502 985730 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on Intel, this is primarily because the execution unit that handles jumps and branches can be used to do integer additions/subtractions if it isn't needed for the jump < 1631392513 391756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: while floating point multiplications beat integer multiplications, yes < 1631392519 573838 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because it can handle fused compare-jump, fused subtract-jump, and friends) < 1631392538 931553 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, floating point multiplication performance is better than integer multiplication (although normally not that much better) < 1631392545 598406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :only 64-bit ones though, because the mantissa is bigger < 1631392554 370389 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intel actually has two different floating point multipliers with different performance characterstics < 1631392564 649365 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one has higher throughput, the other lower latency < 1631392596 74949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: used for the same instructions? I didn't know that < 1631392598 699669 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, the main throughput bottleneck I tend to hit is vector shuffles < 1631392609 858857 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think they're mostly used for different instructions < 1631392625 847344 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intel normally has only one vector shuffler, it's fast but you can only use it once per cycle < 1631392634 547483 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and lots of useful instructions fall into the "vector shuffle" group < 1631392663 295002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1631392710 83164 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the infamous lane-crossing penalty (especially on AMD, but I think it affects Intel too) < 1631392755 96679 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where it costs something like 3 cycles to do anything that combines the top half of a register and the bottom half of the register, when the register is "sufficiently large" (normally a recently introduced vector size) < 1631392798 567986 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is why lots of vector instructions are incapable of mixing the top and bottom half of a YMM register, they're instead basically designed as two XMM instructions in SIMD (even if they aren't normally SIMD instrucitons) < 1631392824 637197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah < 1631392895 554198 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv < 1631392924 760456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :VPSHUFB for ymm registers specifically < 1631392970 426881 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was the example I was going to use < 1631392997 217224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am following this because AVX2 is now available on lots of CPUs < 1631393018 778502 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there's an annoying lack of backwards compatibility, too – even if Intel or AMD figure out how to make five bits of the index useful, they won't be able to make their VPSHUFB instructions actually handle them < 1631393021 121729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(including my new home computer) < 1631393023 789584 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it would break backwards compatibility < 1631393033 798404 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've had an AVX2-capable computer for a few years now < 1631393096 589450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: they just add a new instruction for that. they're adding lots of new vector instructions all the time anyway. < 1631393130 693840 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what do they even name it? < 1631393133 719795 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VPSHUFB5? < 1631393141 298108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I think it's VPERMsomething < 1631393144 969761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than SHUF < 1631393146 55636 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(with a VPSHUFB6 coming in a few years after AVX-512 is more mature?) < 1631393149 433370 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it already exists < 1631393153 322493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or so I think < 1631393160 265864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let me look it up, I think it's later than AVX2 < 1631393160 636574 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the PERM stuff normally has worse granularity than SHUF, this will be confusing < 1631393198 343980 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, there is now a VPERMB that is a full byte level shuffle even on a zmm register < 1631393207 281149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the lower granularity was a thing of the past < 1631393228 386085 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowing how AVX-512 is going, this is likely to have been specified by Intel but not actually implemented by anything < 1631393228 554913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, thing of the past that's still in many CPUs that we're using now < 1631393230 908294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you know < 1631393235 243074 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs : very long ago I made a script to say "best viewed with Mozilla" or "best viewed with Internet Explorer", always the other one than the viewer is using => rofl oh my < 1631393244 481392 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a lot of AVX-512 which was specified but with no implementations < 1631393254 229795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: quite possible. < 1631393308 5547 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this may end up leading to another FMA3/FMA4 debacle some time in the future < 1631393332 446348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there's even a VPERMI2B instruction to byte level permute *two* zmm registers < 1631393339 880184 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(FMA got specified prior to being implemented, with Intel and AMD proposing different plans; each then implemented the *other's* specification, leaving them incompatible) < 1631393340 638072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means 128 slots < 1631393348 726806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait what? < 1631393354 789077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :each implemented only the other's specification? < 1631393355 206914 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think AMD implemented Intel's specification because they wanted to be compatible < 1631393358 729967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't follow that < 1631393366 524113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know they implemented incompatible stuff < 1631393370 885200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I didn't know they swapped < 1631393372 935475 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Intel implemented AMD's specification because they couldn't get their own to work, it needed too much internal rearchitecturing < 1631393374 86133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is odd < 1631393384 692958 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow < 1631393389 146752 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(presumably this is why AMD came up with their version in the first place, it would be easier to implement) < 1631393397 754168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but 3DNow was AMD's specification that was never in Intel, right? < 1631393408 762281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, although a couple of 3DNow commands survived < 1631393434 406449 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly, SSE is much better-designed than 3DNow was, although both are dubious in terms of encoding < 1631393467 45239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never really looked into the details of what 3DNow does. it was obsolete by the time I could have cared. < 1631393491 637401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :we already had SSE4.1 by the time I started to care about SIMD instruction stuff < 1631393520 174056 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: think SSE with 64-bit-wide vectors < 1631393537 345549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, that's MMX < 1631393544 489575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, not quite < 1631393547 463490 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought MMX wasn't vectorised at all < 1631393557 962366 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :3DNow is, as long as you want a pair of single-precision floats < 1631393597 362299 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was the first vector unit; it simply just wasn't a very good one < 1631393605 310785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MMX has the drawback that it shares state with the FPU, and you have to do a slow switch of the FPU between MMX and traditional mode each time you want to use it, since the existing ABI expects the FPU to be in non-MMX mode < 1631393630 52386 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MMX is "vectorized" in that it can handle two 32-bit floats in a 64-bit register < 1631393651 157209 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe I got them muddled then < 1631393660 634204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but two floats per register is still a big help < 1631393661 119401 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe 3DNow uses the MMX registers for its vectors < 1631393679 738152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also handles packed integers < 1631393692 587221 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3DNow! < 1631393702 853080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I'm wrong < 1631393703 439716 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, 3DNow! seems to be an extension to use the MMX registers as vector registers < 1631393714 543769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently MMX *only* handles integers < 1631393731 942659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's even more useful < 1631393783 552641 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, so MMX does int vectorisation and 3DNow! does float vectorisation? < 1631393785 339031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know these days MMX is only useful to get a few extra registers that you can sometimes access with shorter encodings than anything in the later instruction sets, and basically never worth to use < 1631393809 113762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no idea what 3DNow does < 1631393815 585820 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm actually vaguely surprised that MMX didn't become the standard for non-vectorised floating point < 1631393835 705892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what do you mean "the standard"? < 1631393843 873254 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is saner than x87, and supported by all 64-bit CPUs < 1631393847 793710 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in the ABI < 1631393874 668703 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the ABI passes floats in MMX registers, assumes MMX mode at call boundaries, and the like < 1631393885 484485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: which ABI? we can't change the x86_32 ABI, it's too late for that, and x86_64 comes with always SSE2 so by that time the point is moot < 1631393897 62898 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: x86_64 < 1631393899 668644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if MMX only handles integers then that can't work < 1631393914 562966 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, MMX definitely does floats < 1631393935 613450 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631393939 155577 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I'm wrong < 1631393941 638090 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't do floats, only ints < 1631393947 603248 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why people don't use it for float maths :-) < 1631393959 387259 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1631393979 907397 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also SSE2 is the standard for passing floats in the x86_64 ABI, and that's a good thing < 1631394002 405304 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because with SSE2 there, MMX is almost never useful < 1631394021 782051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and SSE2 adds advantages, both wider vectors and a better instruction set < 1631394023 779941 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it looks like we have three sets of registers: integer; x87/MMX/3DNow!; and XMM/YMM/ZMM < 1631394035 683335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, 3DNow also uses the x87 registers? < 1631394043 662242 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also random special-purpose stuff like flags, but I'm not counting those) < 1631394045 191528 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right < 1631394056 882935 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also (sigh) we also have AVX512 mask registers. < 1631394081 416657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :on AVX512-capable CPUs that is < 1631394089 286491 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x87 interprets the registers as one of three float formats (long double, plus formats which are almost but not quite the same as float and double); MMX as 64-bit integer vectors; and 3DNow! always as two floats < 1631394103 958695 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: to be fair those are really helpful for some applications < 1631394162 891704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, x87 specifically stores 80-bit floats, not long doubles. there's a difference because long double is 64-bit floats in the MSVC ABI < 1631394188 142414 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, yes, but they're what has been known as "long double" for ages on Intellish processors < 1631394203 641173 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they got deprecated with the change to 64-bit < 1631394220 97044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because SSE2 handles 64-bit floats, yes > 1631394343 370810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cabra14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88008&oldid=81202 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Language Definition */ Fix typo < 1631394346 691432 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia says that 3DNow! invented SFENCE < 1631394347 337767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf there's a KADDBB/KADDW/KADDD/KADDQ AVX512 instruction? I never noticed that < 1631394390 49753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I admit I don't follow how the fence instructions work. I leave them to slightly higher level libraries. < 1631394391 776278 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that seems unlikely to me, because my understanding of the x86 memory model is that an SFENCE is only useful with non-temporal writes or write-combining memory, and I didn't think those were implemented at that point < 1631394420 36470 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I can describe the general (non-x86-specific) implementation fairly easily < 1631394435 353583 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine loads and stores as not happening instantly, but being spread out over time < 1631394466 259454 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :an lfence stops a load crossing it (it has to happen entirely before if it's before the lfence, or entirely after if it's after the lfence) < 1631394471 596522 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :likewise, an sfence stops a store crossing it < 1631394493 27741 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think PPC conventionally has a double-double as its `long double` type. < 1631394524 612781 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if one thread is storing two pieces of data, and another thread is loading them, then you need to sfence between the stores and lfence between the loads if you want to prevent the loading thread seeing the new value of the second store, but the old value of the first store < 1631394585 482650 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spread out over time how? you mean they happen at different times to different layers of the cache hierarchy, going down the hierarchy if either the smaller caches need to free up space or to make the value known to other CPUs? < 1631394614 60477 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: imagine that you send a "request to write memory" but then continue executing before the request has been handled < 1631394620 968176 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and let the motherboard respond to the request at some later time < 1631394621 104459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "stops a load crossing it" at what levels of the hierarchy? < 1631394661 160903 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a logical rather than physical barrier, it's not bound to a specific level of hierarchy < 1631394668 972490 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you have to match an lfence on one thread with an sfence on another < 1631394671 320000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1631394692 580428 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still think I don't need to know the details of this, what I do need to know is the atomic and mutex abstractions over them that libraries provide me < 1631394710 843627 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on x86-64 specifically I think it's handled as part of the cache coherency mechanism < 1631394716 473880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I don't think I write inter-thread (or inter-process) communication code that is at a lower level than those < 1631394729 743805 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1631394754 17573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor CPU-level code that handles memory mapped to the video card or other memory-mapped IO < 1631394763 912436 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one way to think about it is that sfence is one of the two main mechanisms for implementing the "release" atomic ordering, and lfence is one of the two main mechanisms for implementing the "acquire" atomic ordering < 1631394800 983846 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :atomic release is sfence then write; atomic acquire is read then lfence < 1631394843 392253 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only, x86 has extra guarantees that most processors don't, so sfence is usually a no-op and I think many atomic libraries leave it out there on x86-64 (even though they would use it on other processors) < 1631394858 905247 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(lfence is not a no-op, though, and is important in atomic code) < 1631394919 663046 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and as far as I understand, the compilers need to know about both fences and atomics, because they have a meaning not only on the CPU level, but for what the optimizer isn't allowed to do, and current compilers indeed do this. (in contrast, I think the compiler needn't know about mutexes directly.) < 1631394982 7627 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the compiler does need to know about the acquire/release rules on mutexes, but either it can see the atomic read/write in the function, or else it can't see anything at all and thus has to assume the worst < 1631395011 143956 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this reminded me of a weird case of wanting a compiler barrier specifically < 1631395033 583681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the fast (non-contented) cases mutex functions must be fast so the optimizer will see into the functions when necessary < 1631395039 663676 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/cases/cases of/ < 1631395041 244381 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea would be in functions that undropped permissions, did a system call with checks, then dropped them again < 1631395063 107771 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to do the checks with permissions raised, and to compiler-barrier to ensure that the undropping is done before the checks < 1631395081 591310 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this sounds like it violates the least-permissions principle, but the point is to protect the checks from return-oriented programming < 1631395091 787204 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get permission to do the system call, the code would need to run through the checks too < 1631395126 449510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what kind of permission checks? aren't those undropping, permission checking, and dropping three system calls, and the compiler already mustn't reorder system calls? < 1631395141 416471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also reminds me of something similar by the way < 1631395169 888092 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: say, you want an mprotect() wrapper that checks that you aren't making anything executable if it was previously nonexecutable < 1631395195 830656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah, so by permission checking you just mean accessing memory that may or may not have read/write/execute permissions? < 1631395207 983298 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that might be difficult < 1631395218 715178 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't mean permission checking, just checking in general < 1631395242 442237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but even so, can't a system call basically write anything to anywhere in your user memory, so you usually can't reorder memory accesses around them anyway? < 1631395271 380653 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's interesting – the point being that compilers wouldn't optimise system calls anyway due to not knowing what they do? < 1631395290 382945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, except maybe a few specific system calls of which they know the meaning < 1631395311 622951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are system calls like pread that can write even to memory that you didn't pass a pointer to to the system call < 1631395318 77638 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there are some functions that can system call, and that the compiler treats specially < 1631395321 885975 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :malloc, for example < 1631395350 237841 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1631395387 890539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, not pread, sorry. < 1631395395 985993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :preadv < 1631395475 283818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :preadv can write anywhere, and a compiler has to assume that an unknown system call can do things worse than that < 1631395493 12195 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :preadv seems so specific < 1631395518 856366 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see why it could be useful – it saves the overhead of making multiple system calls when you want to do that operation specifically – but I'm unclear on how common that particular operation would be < 1631395525 378082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's specific in that it's a particularly badly behaving system call, that's why I'm giving it here as an example < 1631395537 938527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :most system calls are tamer than that, but the compiler can't easily rely on that < 1631395574 772171 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant, I was thinking on a different line of thought when you mentioned preadv < 1631395585 641685 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, what was the motivation behind adding that to the kernel? who needed it, and what do they do with it? < 1631395612 396341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really know. < 1631395641 941096 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :99% of programs would just read into a large buffer and then copy the data into the appropriate final locations, rather than spending time coming up with a big description for preadv < 1631395649 501646 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, preadv is faster because it reduces cache pressure < 1631395701 631625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might be there because they wanted to get asynchronious regular file reading to work, which turned out quite hard and they're still struggling with it, but anyway the interface of the async reading allows similar scatter-gather read because it has to allow multiple reads at the same time, so they added a normal non-async interface at that point < 1631395743 575786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe someone just used a cyclical buffer and wanted to micro-optimize the number of system calls, since the context change for system calls used to be slower than now < 1631395759 218723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :preadv is very old, you have to remember that < 1631395765 132633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it can have some odd historical reason < 1631395773 950736 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…now I'm wondering if preadv is faster than mmap + memcpy < 1631395787 535199 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could be, I guess? because the physical memory you mmap into has to be cached < 1631395884 865524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, look, the manpage says "these system calls first appeared in 4.2BSD" < 1631395894 483169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so old it's hard to speculate about it < 1631395975 24148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: readv is older than pread if the system call numbering can be believed < 1631396005 48350 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: while searching about uses of preadv, I found some mailing list archive mentions which implied that readv was newer < 1631396011 568382 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1631396246 15052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: anyway, what this reminded me of is the SSE floating point control word. these control the rounding mode, the exception mask, and two bits to change denormal inputs and results to zero in floating point instructions because those denormals would cause a big slowdown on certain CPUs. anyway, the compiler *should* know about the semantics of the SSE floating point control word to the extent that < 1631396252 22693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not allowed to reorder floating point arithmetic around changing the control word, but current compilers don't yet know this, so it's not quite clear how you can write to the floating point control in a useful way without potential undefined behavior. < 1631396266 888444 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the situation is similar to the atomic operations back when multithreading was new and compilers didn't yet know much about it < 1631396282 618713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or when SMP was new. < 1631396389 110561 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the performance of changing the floating-point control word like? < 1631396397 335630 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can easily imagine algorithms which want to change it a lot < 1631396420 892226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and no, you can't just change the floating point control word in a non-inlinable function, partly because the ABI says that the rounding mode etc has to be in its default state between function calls, and more importantly because the compiler is normally allowed to reorder a floating point operation around an unknown function call. < 1631396434 199483 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC AVX-512 dedicates a couple of bits of the instruction to override parts of the FPU control word < 1631396477 131716 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, on gcc you could probably get away with an asm voltatile that takes the results of previous FPU instructions and inputs of subsequent FPU instructions as read-write parameters and then doesn't change them < 1631396498 91172 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would be annoying to write, but gcc would be forced to put the control-word-changing operation in the right place < 1631396509 974001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there are two cases when you want to change the floating point control word a lot. one is if you want to use a non-default floating point control word, but also do function calls or returns to code that you don't control since technically you have to restore the default control word because any library function is allowed to do floating instructions; the other is interval arithmetic which can < 1631396515 983146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :change the rounding mode a lot < 1631396529 444720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but more likely you just want to change the control word once, then do a lot of float operations < 1631396615 831635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, admittedly there's a third case, if you want to read the exception flags and have to reset them for that reason < 1631396625 430721 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking of interval arithmetic < 1631396632 480448 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exception flags might also be relevant in some algorithms < 1631396653 198658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't know about what performance writing the control word has, I'm mostly concerned about cases when that doesn't matter < 1631397007 784206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently you can get slowdowns for denormal results in both Intel and AMD, and the optimization manuals for the two brands detail when these can and can't happen and what you should do about them < 1631397035 31290 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the actual rules do differ between Intel and AMD, at least for some of their CPUs < 1631397135 690078 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think for many float operations, denormals are emulated in firmware rather than having dedicated hardware < 1631397139 776067 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the performance is terrible < 1631397178 285805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's the gist of it, but the details are complicated. not all instructions with a denormal input or output give a slowdown. < 1631397204 163816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why there's an optimization manual < 1631397210 663352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't claim to really understand the rules < 1631397235 887041 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1631397237 162526 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just have to know where to look if this becomes important < 1631397267 733399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, does a circle have no end? < 1631397268 200304 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yeah you said that geographic location has to do with the code than by using only the functional aspects of scheme systems support arbitrary-size vectors... < 1631398579 847643 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: alright, but at least it should have a coend, does it? (I don’t know what a coend is, that’s something from category theory) < 1631398580 100646 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: for example because it pollutes the default namespace < 1631398651 236831 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm that’s a bit too philosophical < 1631398735 849072 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: What is a coend but a colimit over a bifunctor? < 1631398736 16790 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: i suppose fnord is the original? < 1631398761 356637 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Bi-fnord-tor? < 1631398761 614319 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: no, he refuses to give me access to your harddrive.) < 1631398836 439592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot always tries to fool you with words when you ask significant questions < 1631398836 872383 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: even the ' web-sivu' in the xvid format... would it be for me making return values in your helper function seem to always be using fd3 itself, though < 1631398891 611095 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: at least tell me this: xvid or divx? < 1631398891 937528 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: what, thin and unnecessarily bendy? and!... but is that what you recorded was to later evaluate ( quux zot) < 1631398914 187837 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly as I said, no definite answer :′( < 1631399034 38801 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix fungot < 1631399034 330376 :fungot!fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :arseniiv: what with my poor grammar and ' be's all over the state. so you can do < 1631399035 607317 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : *Exception: Can't be done < 1631399768 57456 :Cale!~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1631399917 834990 :Cale!~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname < 1631399956 666972 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1631399956 713203 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer > 1631403968 95013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88009&oldid=87590 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+18) 10rd > 1631403998 236500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88010&oldid=88009 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10Rd > 1631404011 100308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88011&oldid=88010 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10: < 1631405415 569593 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631406169 899297 :normsaa!~normsaa@101.175.64.73 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] normsaa < 1631406955 562398 :src!~src@user/src QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1631408418 528457 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is Tom7 interested in Free Hero Mesh now that bizarro is implemented? Someone told me that it is, but I don't really know. (Maybe, should also be implemented changing execution order of objects (like, I think, Tom7 did), but that might be difficult to know how to do it properly) < 1631408583 624897 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is bizarro < 1631408634 540024 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The bizarro world is another grid of objects which is normally invisible and intangible, but is still affected by most turn-based actions < 1631408855 457225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, you'll have to ask him. he has an email. < 1631408867 760675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a blog with comment forms. < 1631408879 393351 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK. I looked and I found two different email addresses. < 1631409032 894209 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, I will try. < 1631412275 80695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in git, how do you list the refs of a remote repo? < 1631412367 281240 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: does "git branch -v --remote" do what you want? < 1631413051 170012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, that only shows the local tags created that follow the remote tags. but (git ls-remote) does work. < 1631413138 652175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the context is that I was trying to pull from a git repo that renamed its master branch to main, and didn't leave master even as a synonym, but I still have a local remotes/origin/main reference. so I wanted git to list remote refs to make sure that indeed, master doesn't exist on the remote. < 1631413151 131339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*sigh* < 1631413392 93960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "master" nonsense started out sanely, with only the fancy web interface on github localizing "master" to "main", and using "main" as the branch name in repos if you create one with their fancy GUI tool. they don't need to touch actual branch names, because that would break compatibility, and the kind of people who don't understand that won't see the real branch names because they don't type (git < 1631413398 582457 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lsref) or anything in the command-line, they just look at the github frontpage or something. < 1631413416 29121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but no, at least one repository actually has the existing branch name deleted now. how did we get to this? < 1631413494 374449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :immibis: ok, you were right < 1631413496 352071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :um < 1631413498 702217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you were right < 1631413520 891248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it sounds like it's from one of those puzzle/contest sites, not from coursework homework < 1631413536 943018 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I think it makes the most sense to name the primary branch after the project < 1631413597 254647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care what you name the branch, I only care when it's renamed in an existing public repo with no synonym left < 1631413801 978862 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also found another repo that did a non-fastforward change to their master < 1631413956 766901 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I read is that git doesn't care about the branch name (except that it creates the "master" branch by default). But, you might want to use other branch names in any system, one reason being due to converting it, e.g. fossil<->git, since fossil uses name "trunk" by default, but again it doesn't care the branch name you can use other names. < 1631414040 790745 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Fossil also has propagating tags too, so you can reference a range of commits using a name of any tag and you can have more than one. The branch name is also a tag, so that can also be used.) < 1631414133 462590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I don't know is how git knows which branch is the default? when I clone a repo, I don't explicitly tell it to check out the master branch, it decides that on its own. < 1631414141 973467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there something in the config that tells that? < 1631414261 340130 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does anything but Subversion use that model where you just have one big tree, and it's just a convention that you create top-level directories "trunk", "tags" and "branches" under the root, and make copies of all your code in them? < 1631414287 357460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm... I think git checks out the HEAD of the remote < 1631414340 258293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: no idea, ask someone who uses mercurial, they have like three or four different branch mechanisms so perhaps one of them is that < 1631414351 482156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::-/ < 1631414359 315868 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :git clone "-- creates and checks out an initial branch that is forked from the cloned repository’s currently active branch." < 1631414410 750222 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess a bare repository has an active branch as well? < 1631414449 876092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: apparently < 1631414455 169523 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And we use Mercurial at work, though weirdly. < 1631414522 328199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: aren't you using git at work? < 1631414574 68900 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No. Well, except for a lot of open-source things of course. < 1631414602 593109 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chromium and Android and such. < 1631414639 912278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well yeah, everyone has a lot of version control systems installed on their machine these days just to be able to check out third party repositories < 1631414677 662080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why I have cvs, mercurial, darcs, fossil, bazaar installed < 1631414698 944184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(svn and git I have used for actual work or hobby) < 1631414880 79315 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we moved from Subversion to git for the "big" (not that big) shared ASR codebase at the university when I was there doing research. < 1631414976 262764 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, that fox is back. < 1631415014 392265 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, okay, it might be an entirely different fox, I think there's many of them. < 1631415097 388367 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hadn't seen any for a while, but before that I frequently saw one of two at night out there crossing the (pretty quiet) side street or just walking on the sidewalk. < 1631415157 542370 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :Amore Fuenfter Stock < 1631415932 328723 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :new connection would also mean new secure socket layer handshake roundtrips overhead..no? this sucks hard on gprs connections, when scripts demand preflight check for modifications before it serves from cache. a page like irccloud easily make 30-40 https requests. it is a pain. not sure what keepAlive even does. probably additional overhead ping pongs. it in some ways stays open. via stream end < 1631416331 67255 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :a better protocol would put all requests in a single one. and fetch the whole package deflated, encypted.. vice versa.. and then evaluated "in time". and the user/webdeveloper would only notice when inspecting the network tab. good software never jumps in your way demanding your attention. < 1631416421 427011 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, computers suck. < 1631416444 884995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :earendel: what is the context for this? and yes, we've been doing multiple HTTP requests per TCP connection long ago, regardless of SSL or not < 1631416458 296478 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but not pleasently < 1631416487 415431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well yes, HTTP 2 is trying to improve on that a bit I think < 1631416507 919257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that it allows you to abort a request without breaking the TCP stream < 1631416521 445744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the basics work well enough, and routinely used for downloading several small files < 1631416526 456867 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :[ardon.. a few thoughts. context is my mobile connecion here :/ < 1631416567 934407 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :HTTP/3 uses UDP and has a 0-RTT encrypted handshake to known servers. Or at least QUIC did. < 1631416594 943661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I have an old custom HTTP downloader program (I really should make a new one soon because it sucks), it has a delay mode where it downloads things slowly, and in that delay more I batch multiple requests together and longer delays between just so that I can take advantage of HTTP keepalive connections < 1631416619 496179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and indeed I've done a debug output to verify that that works, it does not start a new TCP connection within the batches usually < 1631416629 933080 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And TCP keepalive is pretty much just redundant 0-size frames + their acks.) < 1631416647 765063 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: this is a different keepalive < 1631416650 732546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not TCP keepalive < 1631416696 446826 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I got confused, because that was talked about earlier. < 1631416707 125454 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :i am afraid all of this is crappy om plicated and just doesn't work. or solve the problem it was invented for. obviously. so http is ok. one as well use bundlers. and just.. test a webapp in low bandwith. < 1631416723 220750 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :right keepalive we were. < 1631416739 657347 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the HTTP "keepalive" is almost a different meaning of the word. < 1631416754 88095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just some stuff in the request and response headers where the server and client negotiate that you can reuse the TCP connection for another request, for which both parties have to make sure that if a request/response has a body, it uses either Content-Length or chunked encoding so the other party can tell where the body ends < 1631416785 900598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but earendel might have asked about something else and I jumped to a conclusion < 1631416786 475510 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has crossed my mind recently that many web pages have heavy JavaScript for doing things like replacing small portions of the page so that there's no need to redownload the whole thing < 1631416796 780532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know the context that earendel was trying to ask about < 1631416799 178176 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was a bit off as i said. 1st sgt logbook entry. i understand we talked about tcp. < 1631416799 947600 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when in fact, you could just do it all as plain HTML and it'd be faster due to the smaller download sizes < 1631416841 2878 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are complicated javascript-based web forums which have things like fake scrollbars because the real one wouldn't work properly, because the page isn't loaded all at once < 1631416851 198520 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :yup. < 1631416855 555583 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, if it weren't for images (which you may be able to use placeholders for), you probably *could* just load the page all at once < 1631416867 616007 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it might well be lighter < 1631416888 534747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and websites that put on a blur filter and an overlay popup that says you have to buy a payed subscription to view the article, on client side < 1631416912 845093 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or similarly a blur filter and an overlay popup saying that you have to claim to be at least 18 years old to view the content < 1631416920 917452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually also disabling the scrolling behind it < 1631416932 644768 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've discovered that surprisingly many of those, the filter, overlay, etc. just don't load if you have JavaScript off < 1631416954 17044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: nah, on some sites nothing loads if you have Javascript off < 1631416957 390098 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my "default" for browsing the web is JS-off (I have ways to turn it on if I need to), and it's actually much more usable that way, surprisingly < 1631416967 701763 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes. images can, and were put into sprite bitmaps to keep conn low. < 1631416980 341818 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :but images are not used much as back then. < 1631416995 473437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but sure that happens too < 1631417017 647564 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :usully u can do a lot with that minimal symbols that are fashinable and minimal (which i like too) < 1631417050 654735 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :it helps indeed sometimes. < 1631417070 682442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there's at least one site where I enable javascript just to download the content, AND have a client-side CSS rule to remove the overlay and reenable scrolling < 1631417081 685429 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw. gitter is lynx compatible. < 1631417139 974775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, and you need to accept at least some cookies for it to load too < 1631417153 420859 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think most websites are mining coins when i use their interface in the background. and keeps machine learning my type style. and metriics more terrifying. :> < 1631417405 231637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :earendel: probably not very fast, because I'd hear the fan spinning < 1631417471 704120 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :or contribute to SETI < 1631417497 89334 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :which i would cancel severly. < 1631417500 570243 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I agree; it does usually work better. < 1631417526 274873 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes, even though nothing is displayed if JS is disabled, you can disable CSS as well and then it will be displayed. However, sometimes this does not work. < 1631417595 65801 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sometimes by viewing the source you can still find a link to the data, though.) < 1631417616 541635 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I discovered recently that Firefox has a built-in way to disable CSS on the page you're viewing < 1631417633 113980 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alt-v, y, n < 1631417644 468474 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this also lets you change between stylesheets, if the site defined more than one < 1631417647 900373 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :about:config? < 1631417657 773489 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, in the menus for one page, rather than globally < 1631417667 262336 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's probably got a global CSS disable too, but I doubt it's a good idea to use it < 1631417759 646640 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use that command a lot actually < 1631417835 212798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's very old. the alternate stylesheets too, though mostly your readers won't guess they exist unless you include a built-in interface, whether client-side script to change which stylesheets are active < 1631417865 204539 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :that matrix addon was quite powerful. usually its a bit too much work, but it could pay on 56KBit ~ < 1631417870 952776 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: still, it means that you could combine the JS stylesheet change, with the browser stylesheet change < 1631417875 321222 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and have a page that works for non-JS viewers < 1631417879 450518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I think different browsers implement the alternate stylesheets a bit differently so you have to be careful, to tell if they're disabled when loading the page, some look at one attribute, some look at another < 1631417911 664178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one attribute tells if it's a normal or alternate stylesheet; the other gives the name of the alternat stylesheet that the menu or scripts can reference to enable/disable it < 1631417939 720735 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :aaand. markdown would be totally sufficient for informational pages. articles. < 1631417984 256651 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't like Markdown specifically for that because it has a few annoying corner cases < 1631417988 937570 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like in the escaping rules < 1631417997 314508 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another alternative is the simpler gemini format < 1631417998 32983 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, the sort of page that can be generated from a markdown-ish input, yes < 1631418004 565155 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even POD < 1631418046 224992 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although gemini doesn't have inline formatting; there is no emphasis, strong, fixpitch (except for blocks), or inline links (links on lines by themself are possible).) < 1631418056 897561 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :there can still be app vr world integrated within toaster and fridge. also rss has to somehow be spun together. then we can drop social media tech monopolies if we want. (we could keep the, if they behave nicely :) < 1631418066 663188 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually really like POD's feature set, except for the non-semantic I<> and B<> < 1631418091 877066 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes. but the menu only allows the reader to enable one alt stylesheet and disable all others, or enable no alt stylesheet. if you want multiple orthogonal axis by stylesheet, such as colors and font sizes, you need more than the menu. < 1631418108 834753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't like markdown. it's harder to use than HTML. < 1631418113 592572 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, browsers have a built-in for variable font sizes nowadays too, but yes < 1631418131 604316 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was working on my own markdown-alike, but never finished, there were some things I couldn't decide how they should work < 1631418135 256015 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :some p2p indexing distributed queryable node mastermind < 1631418141 897131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd THINK it's hard to make a markup language that's worse than HTML with all its historical baggage, yet a lot of wiki or forum sites manage exactly that < 1631418145 484281 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I /did/ decide that
was worthy of having a tag-equivalent, though < 1631418158 823719 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and find an escaping syntax I was happy with < 1631418159 3545 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :so. i hope u have noted this. :p < 1631418160 479835 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be quite marvelous if I didn't want to post on some of those sites < 1631418166 12340 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think plain HTML without CSS or scripts, and with some commands omitted and also some more things such as footnotes, can be good, perhaps. < 1631418184 324338 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there are three goals for a markdown-alike, in some amount of competition: a) be readable as plaintext, b) be easy to write, c) round-trip well with HTML-alikes < 1631418193 583876 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was primarily focusing on a) and c), but other combinations also make sense < 1631418205 744109 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Markdown is moderately bad in all three areas < 1631418225 666933 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-3-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, if I make a custom markup language, it will be HTML plus a lot of custom pseudo-tags that are rewritten on the server < 1631418230 844307 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :hihi < 1631418232 120768 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MediaWiki markup is good at c) and moderately good at b), less good at a) < 1631418239 554278 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also had idea of markdown-alike too, with goals a) and b), and without the ability to embed HTML. Also some other differences, such as <...@...> for message IDs, and using ^H and ^W to represent strike-out < 1631418323 979970 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But regardless, I should think that a) is important < 1631418433 538939 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When writing a web page, ensure working without scripts if possible. Include a proper