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00:00:40 <b_jonas> ais523: but also according to https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/mem/fn.discriminant.html rust calls "discriminant" the number that tells only which constructor is used in an enum value, without the parameters for that constructor
00:00:52 <b_jonas> and that page talks about "enum variant"
00:01:45 <oerjan> ais523: your question is vague enough that haskell's "algebraic datatype" seems to apply
00:02:10 <b_jonas> "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/reference/items/enumerations.html" mentions "variant", "constructor", and "discriminant"
00:02:23 <oerjan> oh hum
00:02:28 <b_jonas> also "enum variant"
00:02:45 <oerjan> misread the question, i think. what b_jonas said.
00:03:27 <oerjan> (i interpreted "variant" in the colloquial sense)
00:04:06 <keegan> they're sum types, so call them "terms"?
00:04:09 <keegan> and product types have factors?
00:04:30 <b_jonas> you might also try to look in C++ papers, because they use "constructor" for something else so they will probably have different terms
00:07:53 <fizzie> Each of the various different things in an std::variant is an alternative, but that's probably not quite the same.
00:09:11 <oerjan> . o O ( are all these different word for it meta-variants )
00:09:14 <oerjan> *s
00:12:22 <ais523> keegan: Prolog uses "term" but I think that also includes things like integers, which I want to exclude from this
00:12:38 <oerjan> . o O ( a programming language with obstructors and instructors )
00:12:40 <ais523> that said, an integer is probably actually a special case of this in Prolog
00:12:51 <b_jonas> you might look in http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/p0095r0.html and its followup papers, that's the paper that suggests first class support for rust-like enums into C++, but I don't know what its afterlife is and what followup papers there are
00:13:01 <oerjan> ais523: i think "functor" is the prolog term?
00:13:13 <ais523> I think functor might be the name for the tag specifically? not sure though
00:13:24 <ais523> I have some prolog docs open at the moment, I've been trying to figure this out
00:13:50 <ais523> looks like "functor" specifically refers to the tag plus the number of arguments
00:13:56 <ais523> e.g. the functor of a(b,c) is a/2
00:14:39 <ais523> oh, got it: the precise Prolog term for what I'm looking for is "compound term"
00:16:51 <ais523> I guess there probably isn't a standard name? this is surprising
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00:18:44 <ais523> hmm, "tagged union" seems fairly universal as a general name for the type these things belong to, but "tagged union value" is a bit of a mouthful
00:18:49 <Corbin> Hm, are we allowing infinite unions? It would be surprising if an integer were a tag value, since that would be hard to exhaustively code against.
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00:20:10 <imode> I've always known that stuff as tagged unions, ais523.
00:21:07 <ais523> Corbin: Prolog does, but I'm not planning to
00:21:31 <ais523> imode: right, I was looking for a name for the sort of thing that's a value of a tagged union (without necessarily needing to indicate which union it belongs to)
00:22:20 <imode> hm. value, I guess? good question..
00:24:15 <ais523> the context is that I'm making a vaguely jsonlike format that handles tagged union / list / integer rather than dictionary / list / integer in a way that maps across languages (primarily for internally representing ASTs in a language I'm writing, although if it ends up useful in other contexts too I have no problem with that)
00:27:36 <ais523> currently I'm leaning towards "term" to represent these, but there's one major issue with that, that discourages me: because I'm extensively representing ASTs in this sort of format, it's going to come into context with grammars a lot, and in the context of a grammar, it represents a nonterminal rather than a terminal
00:29:07 <ais523> (so calling it "term" may be a little confusing juts due to the similarity of names)
00:29:13 <ais523> I may go with it anyway though
00:34:45 <ais523> I guess "object" isn't horrible
00:35:05 <ais523> or maybe there's some sort of definition, defining it by what it isn't (it isn't a number or list)
00:42:29 <zzo38> Do you have other data formats other than union/list/integer (such as byte sequences)?
01:33:43 <ais523> zzo38: I've been considering strings, but I think I'm going to represent them as lists of codepoints
01:33:53 <ais523> (where the codepoitns are integers)
01:34:28 <ais523> also floats but those don't map neatly between languages
01:35:10 <zzo38> How big are integers allowed to be in this format?
01:52:41 <zzo38> Also, do you have a document?
01:55:40 <ais523> zzo38: I think it should allow bignums (although not all programs will be able to read them)
01:56:09 <ais523> and I don't have a document yet because I'm still designing it, I need to work out the details before I can write them down
01:56:15 <zzo38> OK
02:19:53 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not surprised that there's no standard name yet. these are functional programming concepts, they have all kinds of conflicting names between multiple programming languages that reinvent them with different variants, just like the list operations
02:20:45 <b_jonas> and I think that's a terminology that won't be covered by TAOCP so that can't spread a name either
02:24:34 <imode> we have names like monad and you're wondering why there's no standard name yet? all of them are invented or obscure. :P
02:42:37 <ais523> "monad" is the standard name for a monad, though
02:43:24 <Corbin> There's not even a clear preference for "sum" vs "coproduct" here.
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03:27:05 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88477&oldid=88476 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+130) fixed some inline code blocks
03:31:43 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88478&oldid=88477 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+30) replaced 'hate' with 'strongly disapprove of'
03:34:00 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88479&oldid=88478 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+173) added link to more examples
03:34:43 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88480&oldid=88479 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+4) fixed github link
03:40:29 <oerjan> clearly they should have kept the name "triple" for monads, would have avoided so much confusion hth
03:40:30 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88481&oldid=88480 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+214) added adder example
03:41:08 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88482&oldid=88481 * GoodCoderBBoy * (-49) Removed partial sentence
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03:47:23 <esolangs> [[User:GoodCoderBBoy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88484 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+217) create page
03:48:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88485 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+224) created page
04:20:01 <esolangs> [[Composite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88486 * ArthroStar11 * (+2946) created page and provided link to my interpreter
04:21:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88487&oldid=88469 * ArthroStar11 * (+16) added my language "Composite"
04:22:43 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88488&oldid=87640 * ArthroStar11 * (+132)
04:26:02 <b_jonas> "monad" just doesn't come up much, Haskell is the only one that has it as a full abstraction, as opposed to just particular monads
04:27:33 <zzo38> "Monad" and other names are used in mathematics, and can also be used in a computer program
04:29:24 <b_jonas> and they already have "burrito" as the alternate name, maybe that's what the next generation will call it
04:35:48 <nakilon> burrito was the worst song
04:43:43 <zzo38> Do you know what should be a convention of suffix of file names of composite puzzle sets? (No suffix is required, although perhaps there should be the convention, to be distinguish from non-composite puzzle sets)
04:51:05 <shachaf> ais523: I've heard "summand" sometimes, for part of a sum.
04:51:19 <zzo38> Actually, I saw "summand" too sometimes
05:06:26 <zzo38> Is there a implementation of UNIX compress/uncompress that implements the Quasijarus compression format other than Quasijarus? (I could write one without too much difficulty, but would want to know if there already is in any Linux package)
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06:09:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:XSVL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88489 * ArthroStar11 * (+1182) Created page with "== some observations == Hey, I was looking through your source code and noticed a couple of things. It's perfectly fine the way it is but I feel these may be helpful if you go..."
06:15:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:XSVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88490&oldid=88489 * ArthroStar11 * (+0) fixed typo in example code
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07:33:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88492&oldid=88491 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+2) fixed link
07:34:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:GoodCoderBBoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88493&oldid=88492 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+0) fixed link
07:34:49 <esolangs> [[User:GoodCoderBBoy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88494&oldid=88484 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+44) added esolangs created list
07:42:54 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88495&oldid=88483 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+374) added exit conditions
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07:46:12 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88496&oldid=88495 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+48) AutomataFuck DOES NOT SUPPORT NESTED LOOPS.
07:48:01 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88497&oldid=88496 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+50) how do nested loops behave
07:49:24 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88498&oldid=88497 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+15) code execution updated
07:52:44 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88499&oldid=88498 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+99) implementations section
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08:33:03 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88500&oldid=88499 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+159) Details and corrections
09:19:04 <esolangs> [[AutomataFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88501&oldid=88500 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1) moved categories to the bottom
09:23:44 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88502 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1247) Page created
09:24:27 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88503&oldid=88502 * GoodCoderBBoy * (-14) made code inline
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09:36:07 <esolangs> [[Kolmogorov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88505&oldid=88363 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+178) Added a hyperlink to the 99 bottles of beer program to the external sources.
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09:50:54 <esolangs> [[WikiFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88506&oldid=88504 * GoodCoderBBoy * (+1129) instruction table
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10:20:44 <nakilon> I wish new languages were not just memes around the esolang wiki
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13:10:06 <Corbin> Yeah, the whole "what if I made silly syntax!?" urge is boring. At the same time, it's a necessary byproduct of refusing to agree on society's typical limitations for programming languages; we don't require readability.
13:39:57 <int-e> `factor 1114111
13:39:57 <HackEso> 1114111: 1114111
13:40:19 <int-e> > maxBound :: Char
13:40:21 <lambdabot> '\1114111'
13:41:10 <int-e> `factor 111412
13:41:11 <HackEso> 111412: 2 2 7 23 173
13:43:00 <int-e> At least this one is fleshed out and implemented
14:09:33 <fizzie> 1114111, is that the Unicode number? Yeah. So recognizable.
14:11:14 <riv> well spotted
14:12:41 <int-e> cursed video games controls: qsdz for ←↓→↑ and no option to remap keys
14:14:13 <int-e> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY is why)
14:14:35 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was something designed for someone who's sitting at a 45° angle with respect to the keyboard, and off to the left.
14:16:41 <fizzie> We had a school trip to CERN once, all the keyboards there are azerty. I zqs spelling qll zeird qll the time.
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15:30:36 <Melvar> `factor 1114112
15:30:37 <HackEso> 1114112: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
15:31:27 <Melvar> (Seventeen planes of 2¹⁶ codepoints each.)
15:32:46 <int-e> oops
15:35:57 <Melvar> Also written as 0x110000.
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15:47:07 <int-e> also the limit of what utf-16 can encode
15:47:39 <int-e> FWIW, "oops" was less about the typo and more about not immediately realizing that the result I got was nonsense.
15:52:40 <Melvar> I figured as much. The typo happens to anyone.
16:10:57 <Melvar> Is there a stack lang with algebraic data types?
16:18:03 <int-e> . o O ( STG? )
16:18:52 <int-e> I guess that is a serious answer, really... look at implementations of functional programming languages and you'll find such things.
16:21:48 <Corbin> Does it have to be a stack language, or just a tacit/concatenative language?
16:21:52 <Melvar> Huh. Didn’t realize that was stack-based? Though now that I think about it … the scraps I’ve heard sort of make that answer make sense.
16:25:26 <Melvar> Hmm, well, I was thinking about a specific way to have construction / deconstruction work that depends on a stack. (cons that packs the tag atop the stack and the field values below it into a single stack element, uncons that reverses this, case/match which branches on a tag).
16:25:59 <Melvar> And was wondering whether this has been done before and what alternatives there are to accomplish the same thing.
16:26:26 <Corbin> Sure. Have you seen Joy?
16:26:37 <Melvar> Not really?
16:27:09 <Corbin> Ah. Joy would be a good language to look at, then. http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html is a decent introduction which skips a lot of the category theory.
16:28:01 <Corbin> The main issue is *custom* data types. Any high-level labeled ADT can be built from basic ingredients: Sums, products, fixpoints. The labeling is the valuable ingredient, as it can be used to enforce well-typedness in certain nice ways.
16:30:09 <Melvar> Oh, I actually read that concatenative combinators page.
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20:24:58 <esolangs> [[Stardust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88508&oldid=88440 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1815) Blanked the page
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20:25:57 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88510&oldid=88437 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Stardust */
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22:38:43 <fizzie> Windows Update sure can be vague: "We need to do a few more things before you can update. We'll let you know when we're done and what to do next. This window will automatically close in 2 minutes."
22:39:12 <fizzie> (Booted it for the first time in a year or so, it's always a huge mess of updates.)
22:43:41 <shachaf> Those things always happen when I boot to Windows.
22:44:03 <shachaf> Why is updating such a mess?
22:44:20 <shachaf> Shouldn't it be possible to do everything in the background unintrusively until the final switch to the new configuration, which should be instant?
22:44:26 <shachaf> I mean, even in the cases where you need to reboot.
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22:49:05 <Hooloovoo> ... yeah, that's nice, until it eats 100% of your disk access time (at high priority, or something), and actually using the computer for anything is impossible
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←2021-10-01 2021-10-02 2021-10-03→ ↑2021 ↑all