> 1633911720 305228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hell.js14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88718&oldid=88710 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+78) 10cats
> 1633912177 787206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88719&oldid=88643 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+14) 10/* H */ add
< 1633914865 507668 :ski!~ski@remote12.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs ski :Stefan Ljungstrand
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< 1633920180 789085 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there are a few deficiencies in RDF, so perhaps this one might be better:   http://sprunge.us/mwGxjM   Do you have a comment about this? I could make some changes   (Like RDF, lists of objects would probably be stored as linked lists)
< 1633920974 82497 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. You're keeping the underlying theory in mind, right? The key is triples, AKA spans. The primitive data seems decent. Are you imagining interoperating with Wikidata or other big stores?
< 1633921059 721920 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, it is the same kind of underlying idea, being triples.
< 1633921110 199754 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About interoperating with Wikidata and others, I have not considered that, althought to do that first I would have to see what format Wikidata uses. I will look it up right now, I suppose.
< 1633921200 620053 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1633921268 619542 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1633921395 411879 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikidata will probably work OK with this format, as far as I can tell from what I read so far. (I haven't finished reading it.)
< 1633922344 441584 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there space on the wiki for descriptions of bug classes or for design mistakes in languages? I think that there should be a nosology of language design, basically.
> 1633922354 657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EXDotSF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88720&oldid=88717 5* 03Rudolph4268 5* (+262) 10Added the rest of the multi-stack commands
> 1633922440 14280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EXDotSF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88721&oldid=88720 5* 03Rudolph4268 5* (-28) 10Change status of the Multi-Stack commands
> 1633922561 790474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EXDotSF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88722&oldid=88721 5* 03Rudolph4268 5* (+70) 10Move the multi-stack feature status to a new section called "Completed new features"
< 1633923066 709394 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have some examples?
< 1633923375 546943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :@wn nosology
< 1633923376 414545 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "nosology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
< 1633923376 414593 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :nosology
< 1633923376 602752 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :    n 1: the branch of medical science dealing with the
< 1633923376 635373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :         classification of disease [syn: {nosology}, {diagnostics}]
< 1633924096 22613 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Famous bug classes include deferencing NULL pointers, use after free, and time-of-check vs. time-of-use.
< 1633924194 21094 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Famous design mistakes include global scopes and omitting error management. I think I'm obligated to reference https://www.mcmillen.dev/language_checklist.html but it is well-known to be rude.
< 1633924292 32641 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :WP redirects "use after free" to "dangling pointer"; the design decision to allow dangling pointers causes the possibility of use-after-free bugs. In this way, design decisions lead to bug classes on a per-language basis.
> 1633925257 957327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88723&oldid=87272 5* 03LarhoCherqi 5* (+87) 10
< 1633925580 93730 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :good lang name
< 1633925654 28655 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think having a NULL pointer or object (even if the language/runtime prevents it from causing undefined behavior) is widely seen as a design mistake
< 1633925684 441730 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tony Hoare called it his "billion-dollar mistake"
< 1633925696 975824 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that depending on the programming languages and on the uses, sometimes such things can help, to avoid the compiler having to check. However, it could help to have a compiler switch to tell it to check.
< 1633925727 636026 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is better to have a Maybe/Option type, which can be used where and only where needed, and whose presence must always be accounted for
< 1633925751 196225 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think another language design mistake is having too much implicit behavior, especially implicit conversions between different types
< 1633925759 549128 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :C++ is the pinnacle of this
< 1633925781 525635 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the simplest expression in C++ can invoke all kinds of implicit conversions defined in all sorts of different places
< 1633925802 425921 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the conversions can be convenient, but at what cost?
< 1633925803 843648 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, incorrect widening and narrowing only happen because of implicit conversions.
< 1633925841 814423 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that C is still good, but that doesn't mean that other programming languages that work differently aren't good. I do think that C++ is too confusing though
< 1633925957 140472 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyways, Free Hero Mesh does detect use of invalid pointers and will result in a "Attempt to use a nonexistent object" error if you try to use one (the only operations that will work on invalid pointers are assigning them to variables (or passing as arguments), testing for equality, and testing the Destroyed property (which is always true)).
< 1633926000 507618 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Testing for equality will always work correctly; two different objects (even if both have been freed) are still considered unequal.)
< 1633926038 116195 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen the checklist you linked to though, but now I can see again
< 1633926173 644668 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, thinking that C is good might be an obstacle to grokking the topic. Indeed, thinking that *any* language is good might be an obstacle.
< 1633926257 828565 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The goal is to have an overall transition from language design in terms of features and inclusions to design in terms of misfeatures and bug classes.
< 1633926406 950354 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK. I do believe that no programming languages are perfect all of them have some problems. However, I also think that different programming languages can be good for different things.
< 1633926431 837989 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :But listing the misfeatures and bug classes is a valid way to mention them, so I agree you should make such list.
< 1633926527 146767 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cHSXziWOZ_44oSdyaKkJ-X0hTF_OhunIjgnrJ8oycss/edit# is a decent example of such a listing. It's not quite as big-picture as I'd like though.
< 1633927219 476241 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like Google Docs. Do you have a different format such as plain text? (I once figured out how to use the API to download the plain text file, although I lost it and cannot find it again.)
< 1633927355 296728 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, and indeed I'd like to cite this as a PDF or something more durable.
< 1633927371 349597 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But this is the only link I've known the author to give out.
< 1633927608 399907 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know the API to download it as plain text? (I know there is one because I had used it before, but I do not remember what it is.) (PDF would work too)
< 1633927623 370244 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( does the list contain "using Google Docs" )
< 1633927654 189231 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, some programming languages are domain specific programming languages. (There might also be programming languages that would count as both general purpose and domain specific, such as PostScript.)
> 1633928196 458922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Greg.png10]]"
> 1633928663 604332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88725 5* 03CosmicMan08 5* (+4) 10Greg
> 1633928735 481851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88726&oldid=88725 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+48) 10
< 1633928832 253828 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is disagreement of which features you might consider to be bad; e.g. some people don't like GOTO but I think that GOTO is good (although with enough other flow controls, you will not need GOTO much)
> 1633929168 279162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88727&oldid=88726 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+1590) 10working on this dont mind me
> 1633929287 911541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88728&oldid=88727 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+29) 10
< 1633929495 655891 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not saying whether features are good or bad; I'm saying which kinds of bugs predictably arise because of certain features.
< 1633930284 823908 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK. Many features of C can lead to bugs, but sometimes valgrind is helpful. However, programs with bugs can be written in any programming language; a program language tat necessarily avoids all of them will likely have its own problems.
> 1633932396 697578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88729&oldid=88343 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+683) 10
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> 1633934663 69216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:EXDotSF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88730&oldid=88693 5* 03ArthroStar11 5* (+255) 10/* Wow! */ new section
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> 1633936882 422103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DotSF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88731&oldid=86440 5* 03ArthroStar11 5* (+95) 10Inserted link to EXDotSF
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< 1633937452 79338 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1633937452 79405 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com JOIN #esolangs * :beehive
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< 1633939129 958477 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
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< 1633946857 417157 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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< 1633953596 466135 :Thelie!~Thelie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1633955288 935060 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
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< 1633956440 238421 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1633957162 405792 :src!~src@user/src JOIN #esolangs src :realname
< 1633957203 973151 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :"design mistakes in languages" -- it will never be there, the modern society mistakenly thinking that every human is a programmer would have butthurt of knowing that they favourite and the only lang they know - pithon -- consist purely of design mistakes
< 1633957234 70438 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or I thought you are about the Wikipedia
< 1633957279 143710 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*oh
< 1633958092 386764 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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< 1633961617 934495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv
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< 1633962073 261766 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space JOIN #esolangs SoniEx2 :Gender: ♾️ No, that is not a cloak/vhost.
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< 1633964945 147963 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space QUIT :Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
< 1633964990 362878 :Soni!~quassel@autistic.space JOIN #esolangs SoniEx2 :Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬜🟩 Soni L.
< 1633965209 631129 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :python is fine
< 1633965286 383059 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not the most exciting thing but it's broadly useful and doesn't have too much stuff that's pants-on-head stupid (unlike, say, PHP)
< 1633965341 585176 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :your attitude reeks of unjustified elitism
< 1633965377 967884 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think I've done enough "real programming" in other languages to have a perspective here
< 1633965433 322856 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have mastered several difficult languages and I still like Python for what it is
< 1633965462 10350 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact it's one of the few languages I still use on a regular basis
< 1633965493 980037 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think every job I ever had included some coding in Python, whatever the "main" language in use was
< 1633965639 367369 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1633965981 142767 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN #esolangs DutchIngraham :dutch
< 1633966366 726514 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
< 1633966406 342425 :dermato!~dermatobr@cpe-70-114-219-76.austin.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1633966458 259271 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole existence of the "Zen" highlights the fact that it's more into religion, a cult, and cults are saying that everything sucks that isn't within a cult
< 1633966493 120159 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes adepts to keep eyes closed for decades
< 1633966526 390965 :dermato!~dermatobr@cpe-70-114-219-76.austin.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs dermato :dermato
< 1633966566 235549 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not even saying about the contents of that "Zen" that is so full of lies and contradicts with actual principles that were used to build the language and its libraries
< 1633966600 241171 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that contradiction teaches adepts being ignorant, practice lying to themselves and other negative personal traits
< 1633966627 856585 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :thankfully mostly harmful to themselves rather than to others
< 1633966650 723395 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes little no interpersonal harm because mostly people don't care about health of others
< 1633966657 489576 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python has many faults, but most popular languages have many faults, so it's not special.
< 1633966671 503617 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The politics around the CPython reference interpreter are quite toxic though.
< 1633966671 895093 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I look at sick people and wish they weren't like that
< 1633966800 511273 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :being stubborn makes people waste their time, and the more they waste the more they won't be able to realise that
< 1633966807 530450 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :or speak about it
< 1633966900 183583 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, why don't PHP coders resist? why don't they say "fuck off with all these other fancy languages, we don't need it, all their features suck, we have everything we need for the next 1000 thousands of years"
< 1633966967 832800 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :people easily switch or expand their toolset, learn new languages and laugh at PHP saying "omg I've spent so much time in it, lmao"
< 1633967223 88112 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is just an angrier version of the Blub Paradox, which itself comes from thinking that we've discovered all of the different possible programming languages.
< 1633967247 787501 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let people injure themselves. Let people damage themselves with PHP. Let entire PHP shops run themselves into the ground. Do not trouble yourself so much.
< 1633967296 42187 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a good advice
< 1633967572 170158 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when new people in Russia come into IT and since there is not enough universities to make people come into it in a proper way it's became a standard and a rule that you don't have to learn things at all -- neither math not languages, just go forward with the most common keywords
< 1633967866 429081 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's even become a common understanding that actually education is not needed and those with a degree are retards who don't know what they are doing (that's partially why they have to emigrate) so when some new guy says "hmm I wanna learn coding, what should I learn?", he uses "the most popular keywords" that is for example "Yandex are the largest"
< 1633967866 503323 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and of course he does not know that it became the largest due to consisting of the "guys with math and diplomas" but who cares), and then he asks "what's the most common language in Yandex?" and of course since it's only a half of staff are coders the most used (not the most vital for the company that is C and its family but again who cares)
< 1633967866 503371 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :language the most common was Perl ~20 years ago and then they've switched to Python
< 1633967952 494046 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :while the world evolves even within the Russia: Delphi was replaced with C++, C#, Java, people are adopting Rust, Erlang; even some Rubyists are switching to Elixir
< 1633968000 913068 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but inside the "big keyword company" it's obviously a huge inside inertia and most of the people on the outside don't understand how it works
< 1633968097 332033 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also even within the big inertial company there is an inside research and practice that just don't get exposed
< 1633968160 903238 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead people doing not deep enough googling only get the surface knowledge that is so far from being modern, performant, etc.
< 1633969591 940253 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1633970183 130250 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv
> 1633970423 264889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Willicoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88732&oldid=71587 5* 03Willicoder 5* (-613) 10Redid my user page since I am older, and didnt really like how it put things about me. Its really short now though, so I should probably extend it more.
< 1633971631 870078 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1633972266 521876 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1633972532 578128 :imode!~imode@user/imode JOIN #esolangs imode :imode
< 1633973081 965022 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__
< 1633973199 218524 :hendursa1!~weechat@user/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1
< 1633973292 204550 :hendursaga!~weechat@user/hendursaga JOIN #esolangs hendursaga :weechat
< 1633973502 387717 :Thelie!~Thelie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs * :Thelie
< 1633975927 656652 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like many programming languages I think, Python has some good ideas and some bad ones, although I would agree that it isn't stupid like PHP.
< 1633976029 770767 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like python, i think it is bad
< 1633976038 745524 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to use it recently and I got annoyed
< 1633976113 438798 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really like Python much either, although I would think it isn't as bad as PHP (which is a programming language I used to use more often) (at least older versions of PHP; the newer versions I don't know)
< 1633976621 456342 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :08:32 < nakilon> by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
< 1633976624 951496 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh?
< 1633976627 824125 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I have mastered those languages and I like them
< 1633976631 851514 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :C, C++, Haskell, Rust
< 1633976645 733902 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't mean i need to hate Python out of some elitism
< 1633976667 563981 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only mentioned those langs because you seem to think if someone likes Python then they're incapable of using "real" languages
< 1633976668 309563 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you like python because other languages were more difficult
< 1633976671 704197 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1633976683 989345 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i like python because it's good for quickly getting things done in certain areas
< 1633976690 604160 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Again, design decisions and bug classes are worth a focus. Python allows for stale stack frames, for example; a coroutine can pause mid-function. This leads to bugs caused by broken invariants, related to reentrancy safety.
< 1633976692 797727 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is the same
< 1633976709 105369 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :you call it "good, quick" because you didn't use anything better and quicker
< 1633976723 171212 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what would be a better choice for simple utility scripts and things like that
< 1633976733 170519 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not going to write those in C++ or Haskell
< 1633976744 452998 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :those languages have their place, I'm not complaining that they're "too hard"
< 1633976762 750758 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The `ctypes` module directly leads to segfaults. If that module and also the ability to create code objects from bytestrings were removed, then Python could no longer segfault (except from implementation bugs, of course!)
< 1633976809 45646 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I need to do some simple text data munging, file manipulation, etc. then I can accomplish that task and move on with my day much quicker if I use Python
< 1633976815 88901 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin Matz has already deprecated one similar feature from Ruby and is currently disliking the callcc and would like to deprecate it too, and there is an opinion that people don't use them much anyway
< 1633976868 587359 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: An example bug in Ruby is the bareword handling in the parser, which creates the bug class where it's hard to tell whether an identifier is going to call a method when mentioned.
< 1633976886 231670 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I shouldn't say "example bug", but "example design decision", since that's the point I'm trying to make.
< 1633976912 505647 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm not a real programmer unless I code everything in assembly, right
< 1633976917 999701 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :people like you just want someone to look down on
< 1633976957 345907 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin in >99% cases it's the same trivial to understand what's gonna be called as remembering the arithmetic operator precedence -- you don't dislike that we are all assuming that * is higher than + in C, right?
< 1633977002 958141 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, there are some cases in Ruby of being "tricky" but you'll face them only after years and only if you don't follow the "good practices" that are adopted by most of coders (not me though)
< 1633977036 725740 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean those cases are pretty rare, people don't tend to reach them
< 1633977051 764603 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: Unary or binary? (And *that* design decision leads to a surprising bug class; in e.g. C++ the parser used to need a lot of time to figure out whether certain symbols were operators or structural boilerplate.)
< 1633977062 216516 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fact that I've done linux kernel programming, high performance parallel systems code, embedded development etc in all these "real languages" doesn't count for anything... as soon as i touch 1 line of python it makes me a wimp
< 1633977066 256215 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1633977068 750341 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :go fuck yourself
< 1633977082 938598 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :done with you shitting up this channel
< 1633977084 113374 :keegan!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PART :#esolangs
< 1633977090 769511 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't believe in good practices, sorry; I mostly don't believe that there's such a thing as good code, nor people who reliably write only good code.
< 1633977130 475487 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1633977284 489269 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin I don't call that standard "good", it's just the most adopted, and is used in Rails because Rails projects teams are often filled with junior developers and they need something to stop them; on the other side in Google there is another standard, and they skip () a lot
< 1633977316 237411 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1633977318 908258 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Rails standard has own pieces that provoke bugs
< 1633977329 846260 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :people can bug anything ..D
< 1633977432 851250 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically any ruby code style is forcing you do discard most of the language features and stick to something
< 1633977547 23755 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, AFAIK in Go there is some built-in linter, and in Ruby they made a gem "rubocop" that cries about some "bad styling" -- people add the rubocop to a project "to make code easier to maintain" but in fact start wasting a ton of time on pleasing this linter
< 1633977611 36611 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the default rules in it are crazy so then people build a multiple pages long "config" for it to make it skip specific pieces of your code
< 1633977777 244637 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin you might say that in Ruby the ability to use "{ }" instead of "do end" is a bad idea; because it has another precedence that has some _minimal_ but yet existing probability to cause a bug
< 1633977844 91939 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least itself the feature wasn't added randomly and is making the code more comprehensive in the first place
< 1633977911 168321 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then as coding in C you learn that * has higher precedence than +, in the same way coding in Ruby you learn that "{ }" have higher precedence than "do end" and the "problem" is gone
< 1633978007 77583 :Thelie!~Thelie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1633978267 753505 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that features are not necessarily a bad idea just because they might cause a bug.
< 1633978501 487079 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A good design might be you have enough ropes to hang yourself and also a few more just in case.
< 1633978525 241555 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :on topic of the examples of bad features: Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *
< 1633978543 876364 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in recent versions it was deprecated -- now kwargs need **
< 1633978619 338804 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the biggest recent change that broke a lot of gems where authors though "oh how cool, I can pass everything with just single *, let's do golf" that is in my opinion was a bad idea in the first place
< 1633978647 958905 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean that was their fault
< 1633978958 425526 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Not just a single bug, but an entire class of bugs. That's the key feature here; each misfeature is weighed so heavily because it creates uncountable opportunities for bugs.
< 1633979231 61529 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think that different programming languages will be good for different purposes. I don't always use the same programming language for all programs, either, and some other programmers, too
< 1633979458 283778 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would use Mathematica more if it was free
< 1633979566 251988 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :just imagine that instead of spending two days to making own "shortest Hamilton path" I would just call one function or two...
< 1633979571 903075 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :*on making
< 1633979737 877195 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it's rather about the toolkit than about language features
< 1633980923 164432 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although features of programming languages can be used badly, that doesn't mean it can't be used in the good way too, or used not at all. Perhaps that can also be a idea: if a feature seems that it would result too many bugs when used, try to design it so that the feature is optional and shouldn't be needed much.
< 1633981196 800813 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The example of "Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *" seems to be another kind of problem, which is if things are changed that causes things to stop working.
< 1633982997 544874 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :nakilon: Great example of a trash-tier language with a great library. The language itself, Wolfram, is a boring term-rewriting language which TBH is comparable to Thue in terms of blandness.
< 1633983049 916453 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1633985240 160895 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin what do you find to be bad in the language?
< 1633985274 213897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin said bland, not bad
< 1633985287 342587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's much better than Maple's hodge-podge domain-specific nonsense
< 1633985293 549490 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only have problems with passing arguments, like... when I was trying to draw graphs recently when you pass those style options it appears that they stop working when I change the order
< 1633985315 121090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least Mathematica is consistent about its weak typedness
< 1633985330 840701 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead it would be better if it was saying "dude, you passed something wrongly" but it produces the graph image, just not properly stylized
< 1633985342 55297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can index almost any term, and accidentally do list operations on it even if it's not a list, it's a great way to shoot yourself into the foot
< 1633985353 510296 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Maple there's no one way to mess up with any input, in Mathematica there is
< 1633985362 581245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have to admire that kind of consistency
< 1633985373 302091 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I like the syntax  -- all these abilities around wrapping and rolling out the functions, arguments
< 1633985493 326784 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the concept of functions to have a property to be "Listable"
< 1633985581 297167 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :that when you apply a function to something if this something is a list the function is applies to each element, repeating recursively
< 1633985662 229197 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :Listable and Orderless -- I don't remember if this is official names or I made it up when I was porting these features https://github.com/Nakilon/mll/blob/dece915f19017b4f6ddf477a5a49a5578dd5a74b/lib/mll.rb#L282-L328
< 1633987338 402179 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1633987406 369044 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1633987417 705423 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1633988269 777491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88733&oldid=88728 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+632) 10
> 1633988330 804495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88734&oldid=88733 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+839) 10
< 1633988620 612739 :src!~src@user/src PART #esolangs :Leaving
> 1633989347 61739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88735&oldid=88734 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+40) 10
> 1633989413 227998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DotSF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88736&oldid=88731 5* 03ArthroStar11 5* (-140) 10updated link to interpreter
< 1633989465 28875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you know when they used to call 640x480 resolution VTA, and 1280x720 HD and 1920x1080 "full HD"? apparently whoever invents these abbreviations can't stop, and now the resolution list of an online store has these preposterous names: "1600x1200 (UXGA), 1920x1200 (WUXGA), 2560x1080 (UW-UXGA), 2560x1440 (WQHD), 2560x1600 (WQXGA), 3440x1440 (UW-QHD), 3840x1600 (WQHD+), 3840x2160 (4K UHD), 5120x1400 (DQHD), 
< 1633989471 36709 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :5120x2160 (WUHD)"
< 1633989581 261318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like the animal group lists
< 1633989582 911380 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like wut but wuhd?
< 1633989692 296515 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1633989695 482438 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 QUIT :Quit: gone too far
< 1633989713 61845 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :people are stupid, they don't understand numbers, but if we put rare letters like Q and X in the name then they'll know it's a good monitor
> 1633989768 712008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ArthroStar1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88737&oldid=88488 5* 03ArthroStar11 5* (+316) 10Updated link to DotSF and provided description of my current project
< 1633989801 888361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a small wonder there's no seven or eight letter one yet, to get the bonus 50 score besides the triple word Q 
< 1633989928 216992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess you could get the 50 if you like already have UXGA on the boadr and add a W at the beginning. but then how will you get a triple Q?
< 1633989945 88142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, maybe if you put the Q between a W and XGA, if XGA is already a resolution
< 1633989968 848743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, XGA exists
< 1633990036 666565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so put W and XGA with one gap on the top row, with the top middle triple word score square in between, and add a long word starting with Q downwards in between. is there a letter that goes before U and after W so the W isn't alone?
< 1633990112 654872 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :people mainly use words "full hd" and "4k" and that's it
< 1633990131 939894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course Intel manuals have invented quadruple quadwords (that's 32 bytes), in case you want more "q"s
< 1633990134 931333 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that they know how much is that
> 1633990185 566777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88738&oldid=88735 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+1522) 10
> 1633990205 526999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88739&oldid=88738 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+1) 10/* search stuff */
< 1633990251 743463 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought 2560x1440 was just QHD, not WQHD.
< 1633990258 403190 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because HD is implicitly W.
< 1633990263 13440 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :they could call them like iphones: 6, 7, 8, X
> 1633990268 55529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88740&oldid=88739 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+3158) 10i pormise ill fix it
< 1633990284 411419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there's probably more than one list with different abbreviations
< 1633990316 17268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is what one online store gives, it may or may not be the shop where I'll buy my monitor
< 1633990321 760909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :haven't ordered yet but will have to do so soon
< 1633990324 984273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because this monitor will die
< 1633990326 272498 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought Q is the same as 4k, because it means four -- when I started seeing that people don't use these words in the same way I just stopped caring
< 1633990343 367570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? no, Q means 10 points base
< 1633990350 316020 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :what?
< 1633990362 889954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the letter that's worth the highest score, 10 points
< 1633990366 69901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :without modifiers
< 1633990386 680752 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :In those names, Q<x> means twice the width and height (so four times the pixels) of <x>.
< 1633990406 56987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Z is also worth 10 points but is apparently not in any resolution
< 1633990413 795954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :... yet
< 1633990458 381449 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then why WQHD not QHD
< 1633990476 544280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, that's just what this list gave, unless I made a typo
< 1633990476 810516 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's just from a bit of ambiguity.
< 1633990491 623188 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen
< 1633990492 938660 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because W = 16:9, and it's true that HD and QHD are both W. It's just a silent W.
< 1633990539 227967 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I entirely agree the names are ridiculous though. And I don't quite see what makes QWXGA different from WQXGA with that logic, but different they are.
< 1633990586 424564 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: if W means 16:9 then why is 1920x1200 "WUXGA"?
< 1633990624 346079 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. I guess maybe W then just means > 4:3? 
< 1633990624 847940 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1633990628 286095 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh, every time when someone asks me what's my resolution and I answer: 2560x1440... they want to interrupt me and say "wtf dude just say some letter I don't get it"
< 1633990665 722105 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they wanna hear "full hd" or "4k" and won't understand the WQHD anyway though
< 1633990688 995908 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :WQSXGA (Wide Quad Super Extended Graphics Array) is what you use to play Super Street Fighter II Turbo on.
< 1633990764 749500 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :when will we finally stop care? I almost not see pixels anymore
< 1633990767 365604 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1633990847 227503 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would still be important to know exactly to chose the proper resolution in game that would divide and not get blurry but people mostly don't care anyway
< 1633990877 766642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it's likely that my new monitor will be 2560x1400 resolution, because they're more available than 1920x1200 resolution right now, and I don't want to downgrade to 1080 vertical resolution anymore
< 1633990889 574482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm so used to the 1200 vertical resolution of the current monitor
< 1633990911 900007 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :also today videocard drivers are also doing some stuff for scaling, blurring, sharpening...
< 1633990929 11035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to use a 1080 pixel tall one but that was many years ago
< 1633990945 293813 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I went from 1920x1200 to 2560x1440 too.
< 1633990962 272688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I might need to make a new font then, the 20 pixel tall will be too tiny for it
< 1633990978 339655 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess 2560x1600 isn't really a thing.
< 1633991006 626092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need a 24 pixel tall one I guess
< 1633991062 303186 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you need pixel font?
< 1633991084 609939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :technically no, but bitmap font is easier for me to draw
< 1633991087 889194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? font
< 1633991090 804948 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
< 1633991091 152684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ that's my current one
< 1633991098 369147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also missing too many useful characters
< 1633991146 833604 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :omg guys you have own fonts
< 1633991157 412456 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :the geekiest thing I've seen in last months
< 1633991206 39550 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :My font isn't *really* meant for general use, I just drew it for rfk86 and then people were sharing their bitmap fonts around so I thought I'd mention mine.
< 1633991229 551431 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :back in 2007 I wanted to make some font, compact like in OpenTTD, to draw plots and stuff
< 1633991255 414064 :Koen!~Koen@61.192.201.77.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1633991259 5460 :FireFly!firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forget how to sed a factoid, but that URL could be updated to https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
< 1633991278 531719 :FireFly!firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it seems a bit broken rn anyway... I should fix that
< 1633991283 128844 :FireFly!firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :not tonight though
< 1633991289 297672 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forget all those commands too. Is it slwd? Maybe.
< 1633991291 379164 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? slwd
< 1633991293 45034 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
< 1633991299 269184 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 JOIN #esolangs * :the chaotic arseniiv
< 1633991325 100063 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`slwd font//s|http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/|https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/|
< 1633991327 940748 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :font//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
< 1633991339 653949 :FireFly!firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :kiitos
< 1633991368 267542 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was some program on Spectrum that allowed to type text narrower than 1 cell
< 1633991392 447427 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :like something for printing books
< 1633991497 867158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: yeah, it started with both oren and ligthrasiir sharing these fonts with like HUGE character coverage, even if you don't count all the hangul syllables, but they're all 16 px tall which is too small for me
< 1633991532 142900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I made one for me a long time ago, but didn't add enough characters, so it's missing some important math ones plus even the most basic cyrillic ones
< 1633991605 833168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly lifthrasiir's has this subpixel thing where each pixel may be half-filled
< 1633991616 304195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something of that sort, I don't quite understand
< 1633991658 426911 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while oren's ha like thousands of kanji
< 1633991710 3839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I understand how you go there, you want to add just the kana and two hundred of the most basic kanji, but then get carried away and can't stop
< 1633991716 561584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but still it's impressive
< 1633991787 533399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :just shy of 2000 kanji apparently
< 1633991814 876487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't really like its grahpics style, even aside from being only 16 px tall
< 1633991877 180016 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :are we able to judge hieroglyphs?
< 1633992015 760782 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw, I remember my IRC client supports font per channel; so I've configured Quakenet to use Quake font
< 1633992064 183197 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't visit it for a while though
< 1633992240 284413 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to have the Descent font in DOS. Hmm, I wonder how those DOS font things worked, actually. I guess you twiddle some VGA registers to point at some modifiable video memory where you've put the bitmaps... I just remember they were always distributed as .com files.
< 1633992320 853060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I do have a custom one written in assembly if that helps
< 1633992333 251811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with assembly source code
< 1633992363 881593 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I'm *that* curious.
< 1633992459 9753 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-2-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :on Linux console you just call an ioctl and the kernel handles the details for you; I have the magic incantations for X11 too
< 1633993356 271478 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.194 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1633995327 318151 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :does swap on linux need fast disk?
< 1633995389 263853 :nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean is it used for the least accessed memory or just any kind?
< 1633995574 687266 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's definitely *supposed* to be used for the things needed the least, I don't know how close to the ideal it gets on that.
< 1633995582 299721 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A healthy system doesn't swap under normal circumstances.
> 1633996542 276891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88741&oldid=88740 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+167) 10
> 1633996593 984275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Greg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88742&oldid=88741 5* 03TheJonyMyster 5* (+0) 10