←2021-10-10 2021-10-11 2021-10-12→ ↑2021 ↑all
00:22:00 <esolangs> [[Hell.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88718&oldid=88710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) cats
00:29:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88719&oldid=88643 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* H */ add
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02:43:00 <zzo38> I think there are a few deficiencies in RDF, so perhaps this one might be better: http://sprunge.us/mwGxjM Do you have a comment about this? I could make some changes (Like RDF, lists of objects would probably be stored as linked lists)
02:56:14 <Corbin> I guess. You're keeping the underlying theory in mind, right? The key is triples, AKA spans. The primitive data seems decent. Are you imagining interoperating with Wikidata or other big stores?
02:57:39 <zzo38> Yes, it is the same kind of underlying idea, being triples.
02:58:30 <zzo38> About interoperating with Wikidata and others, I have not considered that, althought to do that first I would have to see what format Wikidata uses. I will look it up right now, I suppose.
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03:03:15 <zzo38> Wikidata will probably work OK with this format, as far as I can tell from what I read so far. (I haven't finished reading it.)
03:19:04 <Corbin> Is there space on the wiki for descriptions of bug classes or for design mistakes in languages? I think that there should be a nosology of language design, basically.
03:19:14 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88720&oldid=88717 * Rudolph4268 * (+262) Added the rest of the multi-stack commands
03:20:40 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88721&oldid=88720 * Rudolph4268 * (-28) Change status of the Multi-Stack commands
03:22:41 <esolangs> [[EXDotSF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88722&oldid=88721 * Rudolph4268 * (+70) Move the multi-stack feature status to a new section called "Completed new features"
03:31:06 <zzo38> Do you have some examples?
03:36:15 <oerjan> @wn nosology
03:36:16 <lambdabot> *** "nosology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:36:16 <lambdabot> nosology
03:36:16 <lambdabot> n 1: the branch of medical science dealing with the
03:36:16 <lambdabot> classification of disease [syn: {nosology}, {diagnostics}]
03:48:16 <Corbin> zzo38: Famous bug classes include deferencing NULL pointers, use after free, and time-of-check vs. time-of-use.
03:49:54 <Corbin> Famous design mistakes include global scopes and omitting error management. I think I'm obligated to reference https://www.mcmillen.dev/language_checklist.html but it is well-known to be rude.
03:51:32 <Corbin> WP redirects "use after free" to "dangling pointer"; the design decision to allow dangling pointers causes the possibility of use-after-free bugs. In this way, design decisions lead to bug classes on a per-language basis.
04:07:37 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88723&oldid=87272 * LarhoCherqi * (+87)
04:13:00 <keegan> good lang name
04:14:14 <keegan> I think having a NULL pointer or object (even if the language/runtime prevents it from causing undefined behavior) is widely seen as a design mistake
04:14:44 <keegan> Tony Hoare called it his "billion-dollar mistake"
04:14:56 <zzo38> I think that depending on the programming languages and on the uses, sometimes such things can help, to avoid the compiler having to check. However, it could help to have a compiler switch to tell it to check.
04:15:27 <keegan> it is better to have a Maybe/Option type, which can be used where and only where needed, and whose presence must always be accounted for
04:15:51 <keegan> I think another language design mistake is having too much implicit behavior, especially implicit conversions between different types
04:15:59 <keegan> C++ is the pinnacle of this
04:16:21 <keegan> even the simplest expression in C++ can invoke all kinds of implicit conversions defined in all sorts of different places
04:16:42 <keegan> the conversions can be convenient, but at what cost?
04:16:43 <Corbin> Yep, incorrect widening and narrowing only happen because of implicit conversions.
04:17:21 <zzo38> I think that C is still good, but that doesn't mean that other programming languages that work differently aren't good. I do think that C++ is too confusing though
04:19:17 <zzo38> Anyways, Free Hero Mesh does detect use of invalid pointers and will result in a "Attempt to use a nonexistent object" error if you try to use one (the only operations that will work on invalid pointers are assigning them to variables (or passing as arguments), testing for equality, and testing the Destroyed property (which is always true)).
04:20:00 <zzo38> (Testing for equality will always work correctly; two different objects (even if both have been freed) are still considered unequal.)
04:20:38 <zzo38> I have seen the checklist you linked to though, but now I can see again
04:22:53 <Corbin> Oh, thinking that C is good might be an obstacle to grokking the topic. Indeed, thinking that *any* language is good might be an obstacle.
04:24:17 <Corbin> The goal is to have an overall transition from language design in terms of features and inclusions to design in terms of misfeatures and bug classes.
04:26:46 <zzo38> O, OK. I do believe that no programming languages are perfect all of them have some problems. However, I also think that different programming languages can be good for different things.
04:27:11 <zzo38> But listing the misfeatures and bug classes is a valid way to mention them, so I agree you should make such list.
04:28:47 <Corbin> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cHSXziWOZ_44oSdyaKkJ-X0hTF_OhunIjgnrJ8oycss/edit# is a decent example of such a listing. It's not quite as big-picture as I'd like though.
04:40:19 <zzo38> I don't like Google Docs. Do you have a different format such as plain text? (I once figured out how to use the API to download the plain text file, although I lost it and cannot find it again.)
04:42:35 <Corbin> No, and indeed I'd like to cite this as a PDF or something more durable.
04:42:51 <Corbin> But this is the only link I've known the author to give out.
04:46:48 <zzo38> Do you know the API to download it as plain text? (I know there is one because I had used it before, but I do not remember what it is.) (PDF would work too)
04:47:03 <oerjan> . o O ( does the list contain "using Google Docs" )
04:47:34 <zzo38> Also, some programming languages are domain specific programming languages. (There might also be programming languages that would count as both general purpose and domain specific, such as PostScript.)
04:56:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * TheJonyMyster * uploaded "[[File:Greg.png]]"
05:04:23 <esolangs> [[Greg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=88725 * CosmicMan08 * (+4) Greg
05:05:35 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88726&oldid=88725 * TheJonyMyster * (+48)
05:07:12 <zzo38> There is disagreement of which features you might consider to be bad; e.g. some people don't like GOTO but I think that GOTO is good (although with enough other flow controls, you will not need GOTO much)
05:12:48 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88727&oldid=88726 * TheJonyMyster * (+1590) working on this dont mind me
05:14:47 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88728&oldid=88727 * TheJonyMyster * (+29)
05:18:15 <Corbin> I'm not saying whether features are good or bad; I'm saying which kinds of bugs predictably arise because of certain features.
05:31:24 <zzo38> O, OK. Many features of C can lead to bugs, but sometimes valgrind is helpful. However, programs with bugs can be written in any programming language; a program language tat necessarily avoids all of them will likely have its own problems.
06:06:36 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88729&oldid=88343 * Zzo38 * (+683)
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06:44:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:EXDotSF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88730&oldid=88693 * ArthroStar11 * (+255) /* Wow! */ new section
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07:21:22 <esolangs> [[DotSF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88731&oldid=86440 * ArthroStar11 * (+95) Inserted link to EXDotSF
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13:00:03 <nakilon> "design mistakes in languages" -- it will never be there, the modern society mistakenly thinking that every human is a programmer would have butthurt of knowing that they favourite and the only lang they know - pithon -- consist purely of design mistakes
13:00:34 <nakilon> or I thought you are about the Wikipedia
13:01:19 <nakilon> *oh
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15:13:29 <keegan> python is fine
15:14:46 <keegan> it's not the most exciting thing but it's broadly useful and doesn't have too much stuff that's pants-on-head stupid (unlike, say, PHP)
15:15:41 <keegan> your attitude reeks of unjustified elitism
15:16:17 <keegan> and I think I've done enough "real programming" in other languages to have a perspective here
15:17:13 <keegan> I have mastered several difficult languages and I still like Python for what it is
15:17:42 <keegan> in fact it's one of the few languages I still use on a regular basis
15:18:13 <keegan> I think every job I ever had included some coding in Python, whatever the "main" language in use was
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15:32:46 <nakilon> by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
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15:34:18 <nakilon> the whole existence of the "Zen" highlights the fact that it's more into religion, a cult, and cults are saying that everything sucks that isn't within a cult
15:34:53 <nakilon> that makes adepts to keep eyes closed for decades
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15:36:06 <nakilon> not even saying about the contents of that "Zen" that is so full of lies and contradicts with actual principles that were used to build the language and its libraries
15:36:40 <nakilon> that contradiction teaches adepts being ignorant, practice lying to themselves and other negative personal traits
15:37:07 <nakilon> thankfully mostly harmful to themselves rather than to others
15:37:30 <nakilon> that makes little no interpersonal harm because mostly people don't care about health of others
15:37:37 <Corbin> Python has many faults, but most popular languages have many faults, so it's not special.
15:37:51 <Corbin> The politics around the CPython reference interpreter are quite toxic though.
15:37:51 <nakilon> but I look at sick people and wish they weren't like that
15:40:00 <nakilon> being stubborn makes people waste their time, and the more they waste the more they won't be able to realise that
15:40:07 <nakilon> or speak about it
15:41:40 <nakilon> for example, why don't PHP coders resist? why don't they say "fuck off with all these other fancy languages, we don't need it, all their features suck, we have everything we need for the next 1000 thousands of years"
15:42:47 <nakilon> people easily switch or expand their toolset, learn new languages and laugh at PHP saying "omg I've spent so much time in it, lmao"
15:47:03 <Corbin> This is just an angrier version of the Blub Paradox, which itself comes from thinking that we've discovered all of the different possible programming languages.
15:47:27 <Corbin> Let people injure themselves. Let people damage themselves with PHP. Let entire PHP shops run themselves into the ground. Do not trouble yourself so much.
15:48:16 <nakilon> that's a good advice
15:52:52 <nakilon> when new people in Russia come into IT and since there is not enough universities to make people come into it in a proper way it's became a standard and a rule that you don't have to learn things at all -- neither math not languages, just go forward with the most common keywords
15:57:46 <nakilon> it's even become a common understanding that actually education is not needed and those with a degree are retards who don't know what they are doing (that's partially why they have to emigrate) so when some new guy says "hmm I wanna learn coding, what should I learn?", he uses "the most popular keywords" that is for example "Yandex are the largest"
15:57:46 <nakilon> (and of course he does not know that it became the largest due to consisting of the "guys with math and diplomas" but who cares), and then he asks "what's the most common language in Yandex?" and of course since it's only a half of staff are coders the most used (not the most vital for the company that is C and its family but again who cares)
15:57:46 <nakilon> language the most common was Perl ~20 years ago and then they've switched to Python
15:59:12 <nakilon> while the world evolves even within the Russia: Delphi was replaced with C++, C#, Java, people are adopting Rust, Erlang; even some Rubyists are switching to Elixir
16:00:00 <nakilon> but inside the "big keyword company" it's obviously a huge inside inertia and most of the people on the outside don't understand how it works
16:01:37 <nakilon> also even within the big inertial company there is an inside research and practice that just don't get exposed
16:02:40 <nakilon> instead people doing not deep enough googling only get the surface knowledge that is so far from being modern, performant, etc.
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16:40:23 <esolangs> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88732&oldid=71587 * Willicoder * (-613) Redid my user page since I am older, and didnt really like how it put things about me. Its really short now though, so I should probably extend it more.
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18:12:07 <zzo38> Like many programming languages I think, Python has some good ideas and some bad ones, although I would agree that it isn't stupid like PHP.
18:13:49 <riv> I don't like python, i think it is bad
18:13:58 <riv> I tried to use it recently and I got annoyed
18:15:13 <zzo38> I don't really like Python much either, although I would think it isn't as bad as PHP (which is a programming language I used to use more often) (at least older versions of PHP; the newer versions I don't know)
18:23:41 <keegan> 08:32 < nakilon> by saying that other languages were difficult you just confirmed that the only case when people like is when they didn't yet try anything better
18:23:44 <keegan> huh?
18:23:47 <keegan> no, I have mastered those languages and I like them
18:23:51 <keegan> C, C++, Haskell, Rust
18:24:05 <keegan> that doesn't mean i need to hate Python out of some elitism
18:24:27 <keegan> I only mentioned those langs because you seem to think if someone likes Python then they're incapable of using "real" languages
18:24:28 <nakilon> you like python because other languages were more difficult
18:24:31 <keegan> no
18:24:43 <keegan> i like python because it's good for quickly getting things done in certain areas
18:24:50 <Corbin> Again, design decisions and bug classes are worth a focus. Python allows for stale stack frames, for example; a coroutine can pause mid-function. This leads to bugs caused by broken invariants, related to reentrancy safety.
18:24:52 <nakilon> that is the same
18:25:09 <nakilon> you call it "good, quick" because you didn't use anything better and quicker
18:25:23 <keegan> what would be a better choice for simple utility scripts and things like that
18:25:33 <keegan> I'm not going to write those in C++ or Haskell
18:25:44 <keegan> those languages have their place, I'm not complaining that they're "too hard"
18:26:02 <Corbin> The `ctypes` module directly leads to segfaults. If that module and also the ability to create code objects from bytestrings were removed, then Python could no longer segfault (except from implementation bugs, of course!)
18:26:49 <keegan> if I need to do some simple text data munging, file manipulation, etc. then I can accomplish that task and move on with my day much quicker if I use Python
18:26:55 <nakilon> Corbin Matz has already deprecated one similar feature from Ruby and is currently disliking the callcc and would like to deprecate it too, and there is an opinion that people don't use them much anyway
18:27:48 <Corbin> nakilon: An example bug in Ruby is the bareword handling in the parser, which creates the bug class where it's hard to tell whether an identifier is going to call a method when mentioned.
18:28:06 <Corbin> I shouldn't say "example bug", but "example design decision", since that's the point I'm trying to make.
18:28:32 <keegan> I guess I'm not a real programmer unless I code everything in assembly, right
18:28:37 <keegan> people like you just want someone to look down on
18:29:17 <nakilon> Corbin in >99% cases it's the same trivial to understand what's gonna be called as remembering the arithmetic operator precedence -- you don't dislike that we are all assuming that * is higher than + in C, right?
18:30:02 <nakilon> yes, there are some cases in Ruby of being "tricky" but you'll face them only after years and only if you don't follow the "good practices" that are adopted by most of coders (not me though)
18:30:36 <nakilon> I mean those cases are pretty rare, people don't tend to reach them
18:30:51 <Corbin> nakilon: Unary or binary? (And *that* design decision leads to a surprising bug class; in e.g. C++ the parser used to need a lot of time to figure out whether certain symbols were operators or structural boilerplate.)
18:31:02 <keegan> the fact that I've done linux kernel programming, high performance parallel systems code, embedded development etc in all these "real languages" doesn't count for anything... as soon as i touch 1 line of python it makes me a wimp
18:31:06 <keegan> lol
18:31:08 <keegan> go fuck yourself
18:31:22 <keegan> done with you shitting up this channel
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18:31:30 <Corbin> I don't believe in good practices, sorry; I mostly don't believe that there's such a thing as good code, nor people who reliably write only good code.
18:32:10 <nakilon> lol
18:34:44 <nakilon> Corbin I don't call that standard "good", it's just the most adopted, and is used in Rails because Rails projects teams are often filled with junior developers and they need something to stop them; on the other side in Google there is another standard, and they skip () a lot
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18:35:18 <nakilon> the Rails standard has own pieces that provoke bugs
18:35:29 <nakilon> people can bug anything ..D
18:37:12 <nakilon> basically any ruby code style is forcing you do discard most of the language features and stick to something
18:39:07 <nakilon> for example, AFAIK in Go there is some built-in linter, and in Ruby they made a gem "rubocop" that cries about some "bad styling" -- people add the rubocop to a project "to make code easier to maintain" but in fact start wasting a ton of time on pleasing this linter
18:40:11 <nakilon> the default rules in it are crazy so then people build a multiple pages long "config" for it to make it skip specific pieces of your code
18:42:57 <nakilon> Corbin you might say that in Ruby the ability to use "{ }" instead of "do end" is a bad idea; because it has another precedence that has some _minimal_ but yet existing probability to cause a bug
18:44:04 <nakilon> but at least itself the feature wasn't added randomly and is making the code more comprehensive in the first place
18:45:11 <nakilon> but then as coding in C you learn that * has higher precedence than +, in the same way coding in Ruby you learn that "{ }" have higher precedence than "do end" and the "problem" is gone
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18:51:07 <zzo38> I think that features are not necessarily a bad idea just because they might cause a bug.
18:55:01 <zzo38> A good design might be you have enough ropes to hang yourself and also a few more just in case.
18:55:25 <nakilon> on topic of the examples of bad features: Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *
18:55:43 <nakilon> and in recent versions it was deprecated -- now kwargs need **
18:56:59 <nakilon> this is the biggest recent change that broke a lot of gems where authors though "oh how cool, I can pass everything with just single *, let's do golf" that is in my opinion was a bad idea in the first place
18:57:27 <nakilon> I mean that was their fault
19:02:38 <Corbin> zzo38: Not just a single bug, but an entire class of bugs. That's the key feature here; each misfeature is weighed so heavily because it creates uncountable opportunities for bugs.
19:07:11 <zzo38> I also think that different programming languages will be good for different purposes. I don't always use the same programming language for all programs, either, and some other programmers, too
19:10:58 <nakilon> I would use Mathematica more if it was free
19:12:46 <nakilon> just imagine that instead of spending two days to making own "shortest Hamilton path" I would just call one function or two...
19:12:51 <nakilon> *on making
19:15:37 <nakilon> though it's rather about the toolkit than about language features
19:35:23 <zzo38> Although features of programming languages can be used badly, that doesn't mean it can't be used in the good way too, or used not at all. Perhaps that can also be a idea: if a feature seems that it would result too many bugs when used, try to design it so that the feature is optional and shouldn't be needed much.
19:39:56 <zzo38> The example of "Ruby allowed to pass both args and kwargs with just *" seems to be another kind of problem, which is if things are changed that causes things to stop working.
20:09:57 <Corbin> nakilon: Great example of a trash-tier language with a great library. The language itself, Wolfram, is a boring term-rewriting language which TBH is comparable to Thue in terms of blandness.
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20:47:20 <nakilon> Corbin what do you find to be bad in the language?
20:47:54 <b_jonas> Corbin said bland, not bad
20:48:07 <b_jonas> it's much better than Maple's hodge-podge domain-specific nonsense
20:48:13 <nakilon> I only have problems with passing arguments, like... when I was trying to draw graphs recently when you pass those style options it appears that they stop working when I change the order
20:48:35 <b_jonas> at least Mathematica is consistent about its weak typedness
20:48:50 <nakilon> instead it would be better if it was saying "dude, you passed something wrongly" but it produces the graph image, just not properly stylized
20:49:02 <b_jonas> you can index almost any term, and accidentally do list operations on it even if it's not a list, it's a great way to shoot yourself into the foot
20:49:13 <b_jonas> in Maple there's no one way to mess up with any input, in Mathematica there is
20:49:22 <b_jonas> I have to admire that kind of consistency
20:49:33 <nakilon> but I like the syntax -- all these abilities around wrapping and rolling out the functions, arguments
20:51:33 <nakilon> and the concept of functions to have a property to be "Listable"
20:53:01 <nakilon> that when you apply a function to something if this something is a list the function is applies to each element, repeating recursively
20:54:22 <nakilon> Listable and Orderless -- I don't remember if this is official names or I made it up when I was porting these features https://github.com/Nakilon/mll/blob/dece915f19017b4f6ddf477a5a49a5578dd5a74b/lib/mll.rb#L282-L328
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21:37:49 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88733&oldid=88728 * TheJonyMyster * (+632)
21:38:50 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88734&oldid=88733 * TheJonyMyster * (+839)
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21:55:47 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88735&oldid=88734 * TheJonyMyster * (+40)
21:56:53 <esolangs> [[DotSF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88736&oldid=88731 * ArthroStar11 * (-140) updated link to interpreter
21:57:45 <b_jonas> you know when they used to call 640x480 resolution VTA, and 1280x720 HD and 1920x1080 "full HD"? apparently whoever invents these abbreviations can't stop, and now the resolution list of an online store has these preposterous names: "1600x1200 (UXGA), 1920x1200 (WUXGA), 2560x1080 (UW-UXGA), 2560x1440 (WQHD), 2560x1600 (WQXGA), 3440x1440 (UW-QHD), 3840x1600 (WQHD+), 3840x2160 (4K UHD), 5120x1400 (DQHD),
21:57:51 <b_jonas> 5120x2160 (WUHD)"
21:59:41 <b_jonas> it's like the animal group lists
21:59:42 <arseniiv> like wut but wuhd?
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22:01:53 <b_jonas> people are stupid, they don't understand numbers, but if we put rare letters like Q and X in the name then they'll know it's a good monitor
22:02:48 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88737&oldid=88488 * ArthroStar11 * (+316) Updated link to DotSF and provided description of my current project
22:03:21 <b_jonas> it's a small wonder there's no seven or eight letter one yet, to get the bonus 50 score besides the triple word Q
22:05:28 <b_jonas> although I guess you could get the 50 if you like already have UXGA on the boadr and add a W at the beginning. but then how will you get a triple Q?
22:05:45 <b_jonas> oh, maybe if you put the Q between a W and XGA, if XGA is already a resolution
22:06:08 <b_jonas> yeah, XGA exists
22:07:16 <b_jonas> so put W and XGA with one gap on the top row, with the top middle triple word score square in between, and add a long word starting with Q downwards in between. is there a letter that goes before U and after W so the W isn't alone?
22:08:32 <nakilon> people mainly use words "full hd" and "4k" and that's it
22:08:51 <b_jonas> of course Intel manuals have invented quadruple quadwords (that's 32 bytes), in case you want more "q"s
22:08:54 <nakilon> not that they know how much is that
22:09:45 <esolangs> [[Greg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88738&oldid=88735 * TheJonyMyster * (+1522)
22:10:05 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88739&oldid=88738 * TheJonyMyster * (+1) /* search stuff */
22:10:51 <fizzie> I thought 2560x1440 was just QHD, not WQHD.
22:10:58 <fizzie> Because HD is implicitly W.
22:11:03 <nakilon> they could call them like iphones: 6, 7, 8, X
22:11:08 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88740&oldid=88739 * TheJonyMyster * (+3158) i pormise ill fix it
22:11:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: there's probably more than one list with different abbreviations
22:11:56 <b_jonas> this is what one online store gives, it may or may not be the shop where I'll buy my monitor
22:12:01 <b_jonas> haven't ordered yet but will have to do so soon
22:12:04 <b_jonas> because this monitor will die
22:12:06 <nakilon> I thought Q is the same as 4k, because it means four -- when I started seeing that people don't use these words in the same way I just stopped caring
22:12:23 <b_jonas> what? no, Q means 10 points base
22:12:30 <nakilon> what?
22:12:42 <b_jonas> it's the letter that's worth the highest score, 10 points
22:12:46 <b_jonas> without modifiers
22:13:06 <fizzie> In those names, Q<x> means twice the width and height (so four times the pixels) of <x>.
22:13:26 <b_jonas> Z is also worth 10 points but is apparently not in any resolution
22:13:33 <b_jonas> ... yet
22:14:18 <nakilon> but then why WQHD not QHD
22:14:36 <b_jonas> dunno, that's just what this list gave, unless I made a typo
22:14:36 <fizzie> I think that's just from a bit of ambiguity.
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22:14:52 <fizzie> Because W = 16:9, and it's true that HD and QHD are both W. It's just a silent W.
22:15:39 <fizzie> I entirely agree the names are ridiculous though. And I don't quite see what makes QWXGA different from WQXGA with that logic, but different they are.
22:16:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: if W means 16:9 then why is 1920x1200 "WUXGA"?
22:17:04 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess maybe W then just means > 4:3?
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22:17:08 <nakilon> heh, every time when someone asks me what's my resolution and I answer: 2560x1440... they want to interrupt me and say "wtf dude just say some letter I don't get it"
22:17:45 <nakilon> because they wanna hear "full hd" or "4k" and won't understand the WQHD anyway though
22:18:08 <fizzie> WQSXGA (Wide Quad Super Extended Graphics Array) is what you use to play Super Street Fighter II Turbo on.
22:19:24 <nakilon> when will we finally stop care? I almost not see pixels anymore
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22:20:47 <nakilon> it would still be important to know exactly to chose the proper resolution in game that would divide and not get blurry but people mostly don't care anyway
22:21:17 <b_jonas> well it's likely that my new monitor will be 2560x1400 resolution, because they're more available than 1920x1200 resolution right now, and I don't want to downgrade to 1080 vertical resolution anymore
22:21:29 <b_jonas> I'm so used to the 1200 vertical resolution of the current monitor
22:21:51 <nakilon> also today videocard drivers are also doing some stuff for scaling, blurring, sharpening...
22:22:09 <b_jonas> I used to use a 1080 pixel tall one but that was many years ago
22:22:25 <fizzie> I went from 1920x1200 to 2560x1440 too.
22:22:42 <b_jonas> though I might need to make a new font then, the 20 pixel tall will be too tiny for it
22:22:58 <fizzie> I guess 2560x1600 isn't really a thing.
22:23:26 <b_jonas> I need a 24 pixel tall one I guess
22:24:22 <nakilon> do you need pixel font?
22:24:44 <b_jonas> technically no, but bitmap font is easier for me to draw
22:24:47 <b_jonas> `? font
22:24:50 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:24:51 <b_jonas> ^ that's my current one
22:24:58 <b_jonas> it's also missing too many useful characters
22:25:46 <nakilon> omg guys you have own fonts
22:25:57 <nakilon> the geekiest thing I've seen in last months
22:26:46 <fizzie> My font isn't *really* meant for general use, I just drew it for rfk86 and then people were sharing their bitmap fonts around so I thought I'd mention mine.
22:27:09 <nakilon> back in 2007 I wanted to make some font, compact like in OpenTTD, to draw plots and stuff
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22:27:39 <FireFly> I forget how to sed a factoid, but that URL could be updated to https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:27:58 <FireFly> although it seems a bit broken rn anyway... I should fix that
22:28:03 <FireFly> not tonight though
22:28:09 <fizzie> I forget all those commands too. Is it slwd? Maybe.
22:28:11 <fizzie> `? slwd
22:28:13 <HackEso> ​`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
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22:28:45 <fizzie> `slwd font//s|http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/|https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/|
22:28:47 <HackEso> font//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts https://firefly.nu/up/fonts/
22:28:59 <FireFly> kiitos
22:29:28 <nakilon> there was some program on Spectrum that allowed to type text narrower than 1 cell
22:29:52 <nakilon> like something for printing books
22:31:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it started with both oren and ligthrasiir sharing these fonts with like HUGE character coverage, even if you don't count all the hangul syllables, but they're all 16 px tall which is too small for me
22:32:12 <b_jonas> and I made one for me a long time ago, but didn't add enough characters, so it's missing some important math ones plus even the most basic cyrillic ones
22:33:25 <b_jonas> admittedly lifthrasiir's has this subpixel thing where each pixel may be half-filled
22:33:36 <b_jonas> or something of that sort, I don't quite understand
22:34:18 <b_jonas> while oren's ha like thousands of kanji
22:35:10 <b_jonas> I mean I understand how you go there, you want to add just the kana and two hundred of the most basic kanji, but then get carried away and can't stop
22:35:16 <b_jonas> but still it's impressive
22:36:27 <b_jonas> just shy of 2000 kanji apparently
22:36:54 <b_jonas> but I don't really like its grahpics style, even aside from being only 16 px tall
22:37:57 <nakilon> are we able to judge hieroglyphs?
22:40:15 <nakilon> btw, I remember my IRC client supports font per channel; so I've configured Quakenet to use Quake font
22:41:04 <nakilon> didn't visit it for a while though
22:44:00 <fizzie> I used to have the Descent font in DOS. Hmm, I wonder how those DOS font things worked, actually. I guess you twiddle some VGA registers to point at some modifiable video memory where you've put the bitmaps... I just remember they were always distributed as .com files.
22:45:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: I do have a custom one written in assembly if that helps
22:45:33 <b_jonas> with assembly source code
22:46:03 <fizzie> I don't think I'm *that* curious.
22:47:39 <b_jonas> on Linux console you just call an ioctl and the kernel handles the details for you; I have the magic incantations for X11 too
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23:35:27 <nakilon> does swap on linux need fast disk?
23:36:29 <nakilon> I mean is it used for the least accessed memory or just any kind?
23:39:34 <fizzie> It's definitely *supposed* to be used for the things needed the least, I don't know how close to the ideal it gets on that.
23:39:42 <fizzie> A healthy system doesn't swap under normal circumstances.
23:55:42 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88741&oldid=88740 * TheJonyMyster * (+167)
23:56:33 <esolangs> [[Greg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=88742&oldid=88741 * TheJonyMyster * (+0)
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