< 1639528608 762402 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1639529204 576453 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :Int-e: would a language which can't produce memory leaks not be turing complete? .. what's the pupose? i don't understand "useful for data that lives for the remainder of the program’s life" < 1639529310 130333 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think in some sense a language cannot be TC without having the potential for memory leaks < 1639529335 272839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you will be able to encode program for which it is _undecidable_ whether they leak memory < 1639529338 711261 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :*+s < 1639529380 353570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :*will have to be < 1639529738 302923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :earendel: depends on how you define a memory leak < 1639529804 646124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(garbage collectors use reachability from a certain set of roots that include global variables and the stack and the registers) < 1639529811 772692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(usually) < 1639529844 973060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you can define "leak" relative to that approximation, and then deliberately leaking something feels a bit odd. It is, however, useful :) < 1639529855 950547 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :how can the purpose depend on how i define it. a usual goal is to avoid them. < 1639529882 942655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a language that can't produce memory leaks and is TC < 1639529902 143059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you define "leak" in terms of such a computable approximation. < 1639529914 258781 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what is a purpose of leaking memory be design. < 1639529919 181727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(approximation of... uhm... neededness) < 1639529956 926669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's an escape hatch in a programming language that tends to underapproximate neededness. < 1639529980 505755 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to produce memory leaks, in order to test for possible consequences? < 1639529985 993049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the compiler assumes something becomes not-needed if it can no longer see any reference to it...) < 1639530114 270566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or is the question why I would want an object that I can no longer access? That's because there's a design pattern that attaches non-memory resources to objects in memory. Things like open files... or other kinds of handles... which I might *have* but which the compiler may not be able to connect to the memory object. < 1639530283 311664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The concrete instance I had is this: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2021&gist=9889c7441c66a1c1b918e69dca142a42 < 1639530688 707233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I realized that since I don't care about the SDL TTF library being deinitialized, I can just use Box.leak() to create a static reference to it and call it a day, establishing the abstraction boundary I wanted (only the ui object/class knows about SDL stuff) < 1639531767 909158 :sprout!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:558b:2015:9c55:ace3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the early java libraries leaked. because people thought: hey, automatic memory management. great! no worries anymore < 1639531799 687289 :sprout!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:558b:2015:9c55:ace3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :turns out it makes sense to set references to null when you don't use them anymore < 1639531823 477605 :sprout!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:558b:2015:9c55:ace3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :otherwise you just keep consuming memory, worst case < 1639531851 437011 :sprout!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:558b:2015:9c55:ace3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having gc != not needing to think about memory consumption anymore < 1639531892 255847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just a garbage collector, you still have to put your bags outside ;) < 1639531898 845951 :sprout!~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:558b:2015:9c55:ace3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right < 1639531930 603907 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was touted as "automatic memory management"... that term has to have died, mostly... at least where I cand see < 1639532019 575643 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs * :u0_a391 < 1639532238 575671 :Kit!~u0_a391@2600:380:bc45:adef:2d0a:ca53:86:94ce QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1639532560 359621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-47.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oerjan: yes, but usually you want libraries that are reentrant in that they don't have global state and you can initialize a copy and deinitialize it properly, and when you deinitialize it, it cleans up all the memory that it used, and that's achievable (even automatically in a high-level language, though not necessarily in an efficient way) even while the library can be turing-complete < 1639532790 401209 :ISO-4683-1!~ISO-4683-@user/isodt PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah memory leaks are a side product of tc components messing up, generally < 1639532952 61825 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com NICK :Kit < 1639532957 365533 :ISO-4683-1!~ISO-4683-@user/isodt PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a side effect of components messing up, i mean. a pda can leak memory by never using part of its stack, for example. < 1639534386 173315 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a Box::leak() method < 1639534567 989800 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh I just realized how different the scales of the axes on the trajectory graph are < 1639535354 204031 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1639536226 766191 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :they axes of evil. < 1639536448 242991 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel PRIVMSG #esolangs :constitute* < 1639541058 576989 :Kit!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1639541160 575782 :Kit!~u0_a391@cpe-76-190-178-139.neo.res.rr.com JOIN #esolangs * :u0_a391 < 1639541385 310794 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1639541590 431027 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal > 1639543646 445803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Seed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90856&oldid=46632 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+1678) 10Ruby version of Seed converter > 1639543701 692490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Haczyk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90857&oldid=90830 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+8) 10 < 1639543978 585343 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc > 1639544371 609196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dtp09 5* 10New user account > 1639544616 934276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90858&oldid=90848 5* 03Dtp09 5* (+204) 10 < 1639545953 887823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esolangs :recent girl genius: somehow i had missed that the great cetacean previously pictured had arms < 1639546059 917857 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1639547626 289284 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1639552566 579338 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1639553277 575056 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1639553462 252720 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639554986 914702 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1639555455 468105 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639556548 175133 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :would love to read these comics i just always lose my place.. < 1639556581 970010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there must be browser addons for this < 1639556597 862062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my personal "workflow" is that I bookmark the latest page that I've read < 1639556650 361104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so... select comic in bookmark manager, by whatever name, bookmark when I'm caught up, remove old bookmark... it's actually less terrible than it sounds... or so I like to think) < 1639556663 474047 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1639556752 23152 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had just edit an existing bookmark when I will need something like that, rather than deleting it. < 1639556770 574772 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1639556795 798191 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh that sounds cumbersome < 1639556849 464666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as in: it takes way too many clicks or key presses to do a dozen times every day) < 1639557043 325950 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't do it a dozen times every day though, and at least in the cases I have done, it is easily to predict the URLs. < 1639557091 853797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I do what I wrote a dozen times a day. < 1639557114 804576 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still, being able to save session files might be helpful for this and other purposes; if you do not use the "save as" function then it can overwrite the file that you have opened with the new session data, but if you use "save as" then you can save the modified session in a new file instead. < 1639557133 434752 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I suppose your use is different. < 1639557179 202962 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll readily admit that it's peculiar. But it works for me :) < 1639558639 702316 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel JOIN #esolangs earendel :AmoreFS < 1639559032 164813 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d JOIN #esolangs * :BarryNL < 1639559084 411822 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi everyone! < 1639559088 522362 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi < 1639559125 620171 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am looking for programming language experts. I assume I am in the right place? < 1639559239 806611 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :which programming language < 1639559253 686746 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :My own one :) < 1639559283 746933 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I misunderstood. < 1639559305 897790 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant experts of developing programming languages in general. < 1639559363 27082 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :right place < 1639559421 717074 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am looking for a enthousiast with programming language expertise who is willing to spend a few hours helping me with my own programming language idea. < 1639559655 4961 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I realize that might already be a bit much to ask. < 1639559682 644131 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes im too lazy to get involved in anything < 1639559707 26232 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639559765 935008 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you do have expertise in developing programming languages? < 1639559783 249617 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639559798 769734 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or are you also to lazy to chat a bit? ;) ) < 1639559813 602461 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :*too < 1639559845 362289 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :a bit < 1639559852 767912 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :i made a few interpreters and compilers < 1639559891 542808 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1639559915 810210 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also professionally or in your spare time? < 1639559924 229533 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :just fo fun < 1639559963 543921 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there pages on esolangs.org for those? Where I might read about them? < 1639560188 718737 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or didn't you give them names? < 1639560237 933679 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Were they procedural or declarative programming languages? > 1639560414 459065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Haczyk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90859&oldid=90857 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+2297) 10 > 1639560425 283793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Haczyk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90860&oldid=90859 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (-32) 10/* Implementation */ < 1639560599 417829 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know any other place where I might find someone with expertise on programming language development? < 1639561036 876870 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is the discord more active? < 1639562075 760798 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1639562252 182475 :slavfox!~slavfox@93.158.232.111 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1639562892 616813 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen < 1639563292 302945 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1639563335 179241 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1639563457 805139 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1639563525 848855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Seed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90861&oldid=90856 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-2) 10/* Ruby version of the reference Seed converter */ tidy range < 1639564248 759294 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mmm...discord account requires phone number. That's annoying. < 1639564322 54631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah the ubiquitous "second factor" < 1639564341 21266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which in reality is more of a "globally unique id" (at least for most people and the next half year) < 1639564520 446000 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :They probably just want to farm my data for commercial purposes. Or is discord non-commercial. < 1639564580 926518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-47.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: you don't seem to understand how internet forums work. you can't get people to pre-commit to helping you. instead, you have to show your work. write down what you already have, and the problems that you need help with, with as many specifics as possible. put it somewhere that we can read, and then maybe someone gets interestd. < 1639564625 261316 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks jonas_b, I understand. < 1639564627 208178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-47.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: if you have a specific question that's quick to explain in a few lines, you can just ask it here directly; otherwise I recommend putting all the info on a website, such as our wiki. design specifications, source code, whatever you have. < 1639565061 288029 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :jonas_b: Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I am willing to invest, so I will create a page on the wiki. I already have quite some resources (syntax, code, tests) so that should not be a problem. < 1639565147 776195 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not looking for people to commit, just people with knowledge giving some feedback.,ecause although I am < 1639565224 624216 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :convinced I have something nice, I realize that is bot at all < 1639565253 881613 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :(damn small keyboard on my phone, sorry) < 1639565290 469646 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :nevermind, I'll create the wiki. Thanks! < 1639565612 264996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-47.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and we shouldn't forget this tradition < 1639565614 914808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-4-47.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome BarryNL < 1639565618 58408 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1639565644 949545 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks! < 1639565651 98651 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639565930 786958 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639566157 536835 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1639566926 401855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03BarryNL 5* 10New user account < 1639566984 76669 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice CAPTCHA with Befunge! First tried to do it by hand, but then decided to just run the code. < 1639567142 643151 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer JOIN #esolangs dyeplexer :t b k ky jt h bc < 1639567462 260573 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen > 1639567467 478097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90862&oldid=90858 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+344) 10Introduced myself. > 1639568694 508455 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90863 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+628) 10Created page with "'''Posset''' is the perfect programming language according to user [[BarryNL]] and the name is an abbreviation from '''''Pos'''sibility '''Set'''''. Its features: * [https://..." > 1639569557 116222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90864&oldid=90849 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+13) 10Adding Posset to the Language list. > 1639570377 406390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90865&oldid=90863 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+295) 10Adding some categories. < 1639570505 690160 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2600:380:bc5f:f68d:f6b0:760b:913:5b12 JOIN #esolangs * :u0_a391 > 1639570531 658878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90866&oldid=90865 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+5) 10Correctly refer to my username. > 1639570575 548518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90867&oldid=90866 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+34) 10Try again. < 1639570710 577143 :Kit!~u0_a391@cpe-76-190-178-139.neo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1639570776 267797 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2600:380:bc5f:f68d:f6b0:760b:913:5b12 NICK :Kit > 1639572003 860811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90868&oldid=90867 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-147) 10Use wikilinks > 1639572027 816468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90869&oldid=90868 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10user < 1639574005 373248 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1639574132 470714 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1639574919 707009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90870&oldid=90869 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+1487) 10Adding a first introduction. < 1639575864 103546 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1639575975 933600 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.3 < 1639576134 372773 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN #esolangs DutchIngraham :dutch > 1639577066 499172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90871&oldid=90864 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+11) 10/* A */ > 1639577173 655326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90872&oldid=90806 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+139) 10 > 1639577201 840297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Programming languages using polish notation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90873 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+0) 10Created blank page < 1639577230 149447 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN #esolangs * :Koen > 1639578666 576816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90874&oldid=90870 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+2915) 10Added variable and runtime description. < 1639579228 557566 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639579307 266636 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Client Quit < 1639579372 508722 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639580242 870940 :ecs!ecs@user/ecs QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1639580272 576542 :ecs!~ecs@user/ecs JOIN #esolangs ecs :ecs > 1639580535 75356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90875&oldid=90872 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+530) 10 > 1639580535 245652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90876&oldid=90874 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+569) 10Adding disclaimer. > 1639580634 422262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90877&oldid=90876 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+1) 10Move contents upward. < 1639581628 198186 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1639581847 389332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Knight14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90878&oldid=85585 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+58) 10 > 1639582266 454569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Posset14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90879 5* 03Corbin 5* (+270) 10Take a guess at the formalism. > 1639582793 102216 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90880&oldid=90877 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+2244) 10Adding some examples of the syntax. > 1639584543 99045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90881&oldid=90880 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+693) 10Adding the performance section. < 1639584772 979811 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi all, I have started a description of the Posset language on the esolangs wiki. As I mentioned before, I am looking for feedback from other experts or enthousiasts, because I am still convinced myself < 1639584785 829047 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.3 < 1639584800 463046 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :that it is a revolutionary idea :) < 1639585137 239077 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: I left a link on the talk page. I'm wondering about the relationship to probability monads, particularly when implemented as clouds of samples. < 1639585185 236240 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ideas with logic programming are interesting. The main obstacle I envision is that unifying two probability distributions is undecideable (I think?) < 1639585245 575642 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Corbin, thanks! I am not familiar with the talk page, so I'll take a look. < 1639585384 292631 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha, found it. I'll take a look. I am not that familiar with monads, so not sure if I understand it. < 1639585591 480034 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then this paper might not be especially easy either: http://webyrd.net/scheme-2013/papers/HemannMuKanren2013.pdf < 1639585625 528782 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, given how often monads can be composed, I wonder whether there is some sort of logic+probability monad which combines the two approaches. < 1639585677 375291 :SpikeHeron!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN #esolangs DutchIngraham :dutch < 1639586151 905208 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll give those papers a shot and try to understand what they are doing. After that I need to think about how that relates to Posset. I also haven't really thought about how Posset relates to probabilities in general. < 1639586293 493217 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since Posset consists of possibilities I suspect that also introduces probabilities: in 7 of the 10 possible worlds a particular characteristic occurs. < 1639586316 473754 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1639586416 451576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DigitalDetective47/WIP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90882&oldid=90348 5* 03DigitalDetective47 5* (+3070) 10 < 1639586559 645264 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1639586790 626800 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Corbin > 1639587063 94755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90883&oldid=90879 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+124) 10 < 1639587403 231354 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs * :u0_a391 < 1639587615 631255 :Kit!~u0_a391@2600:380:bc5f:f68d:f6b0:760b:913:5b12 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1639588476 994461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90884&oldid=90881 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* More information */ fix > 1639588509 492554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90885&oldid=90884 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-40) 10/* Performance */ ditto > 1639588540 105726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90886&oldid=90885 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* Examples */ wikilinks use [[]], hyperlinks use [] < 1639589155 103899 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: BTW, further in the probability-monad paper, there's an explanation of how to efficiently perform Monte Carlo simulations by limiting the number of particles that are tracked, even considering the Cartesian product. This is a rabbit hole which goes down quite deep; I just finished reading https://arxiv.org/abs/1701.02434 and am still digesting it. < 1639589205 382903 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :You don't have to go down that far, but you should probably know that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_(software) exists and can be used from R or Python. < 1639589271 689147 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Corbin: Wow, thanks for even more pointers! < 1639589404 229743 :Corbin!~Corbin@c-73-67-140-116.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. There's a lot of research on probabalistic programming. < 1639589625 723545 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com NICK :Kit > 1639591849 956886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90887&oldid=90875 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+315) 10/* Instruction table */ > 1639591945 4074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DOGO14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90888&oldid=74156 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+898) 10Added further elucidations, reformatted the commands and operations as tables, and complemented a reference to the similar language M?!. > 1639593054 487543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(top, height)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90889&oldid=90579 5* 03Squidmanescape 5* (+344) 10/* Complexity */ < 1639593402 536255 :dyeplexer!~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1639593624 757292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90890&oldid=90887 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+192) 10/* Instruction table */ < 1639594067 176472 :Koen!~Koen@128.245.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1639594237 502307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90891&oldid=90890 5* 03GingerIndustries 5* (+9) 10/* Instruction table */ < 1639594280 37422 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639595591 100934 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :BarryNL: OK I will look now < 1639595780 930311 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, for one thing I do not believe there is any such thing as a "perfect programming language" < 1639596058 892249 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639596061 2186 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Yes, I read that a lot and you are probably correct. < 1639596208 856725 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you can still strive for it, although it means you will never reach your goal. It also makes some of my motivation clear, but if it is misplaced on esolangs.org I have no problem with removing it. < 1639596321 504140 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, you can strive for it, I suppose. < 1639596493 140939 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps the article can be rephrases as "Posset is BarryNL's attempt to create a perfect programming language"? < 1639596595 410157 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Taneb: yes, that is certainly a more accurate description. I'll change it to that. There are more inaccuracies though. > 1639596659 925283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90892&oldid=90886 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+5) 10Rephrase inaccurate intro sentence. < 1639596814 307055 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1639597202 832338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90893&oldid=90892 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+441) 10Adding Turing completeness section. < 1639598281 350302 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1639598333 189656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Posset14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90894&oldid=90893 5* 03BarryNL 5* (+211) 10Some additional minor changes. > 1639598568 654340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07++brainfuck++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90895&oldid=53655 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+167) 10Reformulated some commands, amended the orthography, and improved the formatting. > 1639598621 462995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07++brainfuck++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90896&oldid=90895 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+186) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ++brainfuck++ programming language on GitHub. < 1639598908 338972 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1639599062 93695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07++brainfuck++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90897&oldid=90896 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+355) 10Added examples for the Hello, world!, cat, and truth-machine programs. < 1639600069 436706 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 JOIN #esolangs delta23 :delta23__ < 1639601224 195786 :u0_a391!~u0_a391@2600:380:bc5f:f68d:8776:74f1:32c4:29f6 JOIN #esolangs * :u0_a391 < 1639601451 154470 :Kit!~u0_a391@2603-6010-a141-6fa3-88f4-4cc9-a7b6-7571.res6.spectrum.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1639601583 140279 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639601794 34604 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://adventofcode.com/2021/day/14 have you considered this? < 1639601858 571704 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking maybe something like this http://www.se16.info/js/lands4.htm < 1639601918 814202 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.njohnston.ca/2010/10/a-derivation-of-conways-degree-71-look-and-say-polynomial/ < 1639601933 487065 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :simpler perhaps, but similar < 1639602500 894651 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :river: who are you talking to? Me or someone else? < 1639602639 440598 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639602711 551486 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :to the room < 1639602751 529698 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :HH -> N, NH -> C, HN -> C < 1639602763 397015 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok, thnx. < 1639602770 531669 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if we start with HH, HH -> HNH -> HCNCH < 1639602832 806314 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :how to analyze this < 1639602865 892288 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's look at the simplest one: HH -> H, then HH -> HHH -> HHHHH -> HHHHHHHHH < 1639602961 959114 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :this grows as fast as possible < 1639602976 361161 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :the interesting part is that some do not grow as fast as possible, because there are less rules < 1639603049 457699 :river!~My_user_n@tilde.team/user/river PRIVMSG #esolangs :suppose you had HH -> X, HX -> H. then HH -> HXH -> HHXH -> HXHHXH -> HHXHXHHXH -> HXHHXHHXHXHHXH < 1639603634 537188 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639604154 456403 :delta23!~delta23@user/delta23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1639604297 852927 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :IMO the puzzle setup implies there are always rules for every pair that appears. < 1639604337 322155 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or at least it doesn't really say what you should do if there isn't, and it is the case that there is for the examples & my puzzle input. < 1639604389 964624 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So starting from a polymer of length N, after T steps, the result is (N-1)*2^T+1 characters long. < 1639604415 301843 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639604552 867248 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I've got two solutions for part 2 that I think count as different, but both work fine and neither involves actually expanding it out.) < 1639604821 53533 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I guess you could read the task to suggest that a pair just stays the same if there's no matching rule. But in practice it doesn't happen. At least for my actual puzzle input, the alphabet has size 10 (B, C, F, H, K, N, O, P, S, V) and the ruleset contains insertion rules for all 10*10 = 100 pairs. < 1639605070 378013 :BarryNL!~BarryNL@2a02:a468:ae45:1:8883:add:1e1a:ac8d QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1639605152 575324 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639607743 630915 :earendel!uid498179@user/earendel QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1639609201 635772 :SpikeHeron!~DutchIngr@user/dutch QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.3 < 1639609590 730435 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639609724 615027 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1639609762 209440 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :(same here) < 1639610417 470307 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639610658 509058 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1639611006 482243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PRNGP214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90898&oldid=88807 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+826) 10Examples. More playing with the Mersenne twister. (This lang is pretty trivial to code in. :) ) < 1639611278 300912 :tromp!~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1639612256 375503 :oerjan!~oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN #esolangs oerjan :Ørjan Johansen < 1639612546 213126 :dutch!~DutchIngr@user/dutch JOIN #esolangs DutchIngraham :dutch