00:07:57 different topic, I'm going to do a zzo38 here. imagine the following fictional shapez.io-like video game. the playfield is a 3D cube grid, infinite to the north-south and east-west but 16 cubies tall with a ground plane under. in Factorio and shapez.io and Mindustry you build belt sections in a cubie, but here you instead build belt sections on a face of a cubie. so a section can go south from a cubie, 00:08:03 from south into a cubie, to west from a cubie, from west into a cubie, to below from a cubie, or from below up to a cubie. these are directional one-way despite being shown as transparent pipes. a long straigh pipe made of many sections transports items to long distance as you'd expect. interesting things happen when a cubie has some other configuration of pipes than just one pipe in and another out the 00:08:09 opposite way. 00:11:31 if a cubie has just one input, it blocks the items like you'd expect, and if just one input then it usually produces no items, but if the pipe is from a resource field tile on the ground plane then it periodically mines items. if a cubie has two or more input pipes and an output pipe opposite of one of the inputs then it's a priority merge, with the item going straight having priority and items from the 00:11:37 other paths balanced if there's enough of them. two or more outputs and one input makes a priority splitter, with the other outputs having higher priority than the straight output. if you want an equal merge or split then you just leave the straight input or output resp unused. 00:12:05 My idea regarding the byte order thing is a weak suspicion that maybe they wanted to write 64 bit constants with bit 0 first, then bit 1, etc. so UINT64_C(0x0102040810204080) would be the identity. 00:12:35 I don't see any actual benefit here... and I rather suspect that in most cases this value will be constant anyway. 00:15:29 if there are two inputs from opposite direction and one output, that's not a merge, it's a factory building that waits for inputs from both sides then acts as a stacker or mixer or painter; similarly two outputs opposite each other and one input make for a shape cutter. one input and one output not opposite each other it's a rotator. if you want to go another direction without rotation then you can do a 00:15:35 priority merge with one input unused, or multiple consecutive rotations cancelling out each other (works in 3D but not in 2D) 00:16:03 no wait, the latter doesn't work 00:16:07 I don't understand "let you build sections in a cubie" 00:16:38 int-e: those games are 2D so it lets you build sections in a belt 00:16:42 no sorry 00:16:47 but it sounds to me like you're just bumping all dimensions by one... so rather than lines as interfaces between squares you now have faces as interfaces between cubes 00:16:52 those games are 2D so they let you build belt sections in a square tile 00:17:22 int-e: no, the part about merges and splits still works in 2D actually, as long as you also add belt crossings when you use 2 inputs and 2 outputs 00:17:35 with each input opposite an output 00:17:48 unless you intend pipes/belts to be squeezed between cubes. 00:18:12 int-e: yes, they're between the cubies, one cubie long going from the center of one cubie to the center of another cubie 00:18:40 and each section is straight, it doesn't get curved based on what neighbors it has 00:18:45 should I draw a diagram? 00:20:35 oh you /only/ have pipes, and they're supposed to determine the block's function? 00:20:39 yes 00:21:10 so basically... every face becomes a tristate thing: no pipe, pipe one way, pipe the other way, and that's all the information there is 00:21:11 each face has either a one-way pipe in one direction, a one-way pipe in the other direction, or nothing (so far as I explained) 00:21:28 exactly (later I'll add two more states totaling to five) 00:22:13 and I guess one could recover user-friendliness by actually decoding this for UI purposes, and offering prebuilt cubes too. 00:22:23 hmm hmm. 00:22:46 int-e: for 2D this would be user-friendly, for 3D it's very hard to implement in a way that you can see what you're building, which is why this is a hypothetical game 00:22:52 did you ever play the infinifactory thing? 00:22:57 I haven't explained about the items (shapes and pigments) yet 00:24:58 (Asking because that one *is* 3D, though closer to the building/pipes story. The other twist is that you build 3D objects that often take up multiple cubes of space.) 00:24:59 the items are pigments that work exactly as in shapez.io: you mine red, green or blue and mix them and paint octants; and shapes, which are made of eight octants that can be missing or one of four shapes with one of eight colors and, here's the twist form shapez.io, an orientation. the four minable shapes are cubes, spheres, cylinders, and hexagonal prisms, whose octants have progressively less 00:25:06 symmetry, so a cube octant only has one orientation, a sphere octant 8, a cylinder octant 12, and a hexagon octant 24. 00:25:55 (you could add a fifth shape whose octants differ in chiralty, but I think that's too evil) 00:26:21 mmm 00:26:23 so one of the earliest goal shapes is made of two halfspheres with their round parts touching 00:26:41 so octants can change position? 00:27:37 sounds messy already tbh 00:27:38 int-e: yes, if you stack two shapes then each has to fit half of the bounding box, cut in the direction opposite the two input pipes, and the stacker moves them so each is in the half-box on the side of the input 00:27:56 a cutter outputs shapes suitable for stacking in that orientation 00:28:07 especially when you start painting 00:28:18 yes, it's messy 00:29:31 (even if you paint the whole surface... take a half cube, stack a half sphere, paint, remove the half sphere... you now have a half cube with a circular unpainted area. cut, rotate...) 00:29:32 I didn't define what some other pipe configurations do, like the ones with two inputs and one output in three pairwise perpendicular directions, or two outputs and one input pairwise perpendicular, etc 00:29:55 I'm not really decided about what those configurations should do yet, but the rest of the configurations are enough to do everything 00:30:43 int-e: no, the paint goes deep, each octant is wholly the sme color. imagine the shapes made of sponge if you wish, or the paint flowing into the gaps between the octant 00:31:38 I guess that's less messy... as far as game logic goes 00:31:47 (the floor will be dripping with paint now though) 00:32:31 no, the sponge absorbs the whole drop of paint no matter if the shape is just one eight-sphere or a full mined cube 00:33:09 my experience with sponges has been different... anyway. 00:33:19 just thought it was amusing 00:33:26 and the paint replaces any other paint already on it, so it can brighten the color from blue to pink or pink to red, just as in shapez.io 00:34:04 and the mined shapes are black and there's no black pigment so you can't unpaint sponge, just as in shapez.io 00:34:16 (if you couldn't brighten colors then you wouldn't need mixers) 00:34:25 (er, darken) 00:34:56 it's an abstract video game, it doesn't have to work like real sponges and paint 00:35:04 oh really 00:35:27 meh you reminded me that I still haven't finished the logic for my 6-factory shapez thing 00:36:40 also there's a hub, which I imagine is a full height obelisk 4x4 tiles across somewhere near the staring area, and it accepts the requested shapes modulo rotation, mirroring (chirality) or shifting (for shapes that can come out of a cutter) 00:36:52 but this pat is subject to change 00:38:06 and you can unbuild pipes because not being able to do that is also evil 00:38:21 also a pipe going down to the ground plane should probably be a sink (shapez.io trash) 00:38:26 so you can discard cut pieces 00:40:06 One of my favorite things I did in Infinifactory was an upward disposal, raising tower of garbage into the sky... 00:40:27 I also have an extension for how circuit/signals should work 00:40:50 4D shapez with time travel 00:41:17 I guess that's your extra bits you alluded to before 00:41:18 to answer your question, I haven't played Infinifactory. should I? is it good? 00:43:20 now besides pipe you can build two more things. the first is wires, which you build directional on a face between two cubies or below a cubie. they transmit boolean signals, fast enough that any length of wire transmits the signal in one tick between two junctions, kind of like shapez.io, but each wire section can only be in two states, 0 or 1, there's no void or conflict or shape or pigment state. 00:43:26 junctions, which are cubies with multiple wires other than one input and one output perform various logic functions. 00:43:40 I'm not quite decided on what these functions should be, I thought of multiple variants. 00:43:48 a face can't have both a wire and a pipe. 00:44:25 I had fun when I played it. Can't hurt to check a let's play video first, of course. It's less abstract than shapez. 00:44:54 a junction with an input pipe, two output pipes one of which is opposite the input, and a wire input, makes for a shapez.io-like gate. there can also be other interactions of gates and wires. 00:46:13 -!- tromp has joined. 00:46:32 I should also say that I never finished the final part (which I think is post-story) because as happens in several Zachtronics games, the tasks just get too big. 00:46:41 (for my taste, ymmv) 00:46:44 -!- tromp has quit (Client Quit). 00:48:35 i,i is a ymmv register the VEX encoding version of a ymm register? 00:50:42 and finally, you can build a shape detector, which you build not on a face but on a huge cube made of 11x11x11 cubies, not overlapping with other shape detectors. a shape detector has 97 special cubie location, the other cubies are normal. each 5x5x5 corner has 12 magic wire output cubies, 6 on the faces and 6 between the face and the center. each corner of 12 outputs information about the shape of one 00:50:48 octant of a shape item. there's a special shape input cubie in the center which lets the shape detector reads the shape that goes through the pipe in the center, like shapez.io speed meters, or the current freeplay shapes, or the next freeplay shape, depending on its configuration of wires/pipes. 00:50:58 I haven't figured out how you should read color information yet, this only gives the shape. 00:51:35 so in the special magic cubes of a shape detector, different rules apply than in other cubies. 00:52:00 this... sounds too difficult to play casually 00:52:24 int-e: is building a MAM in shapez.io too difficult to play casually? 00:52:38 hmm. probably. 00:53:23 might be 00:53:46 but I know how to break it down into reasonably self-contained parts. and it's 2D so navigating the things and debugging them is ultimately not too taxing. 00:53:47 but I presume you don't need the logic at first, until you want to automate freeplay levels 00:54:14 sure, I think the logic is *meant* for people who venture into MAM territory. 00:54:47 the way I imagine it, the hub always requires a very low amount of each shape, like only 10 of each shape, so you don't need too many copies of things, though there's still a range copy/paste and range delete function so you can copy blocks 00:54:57 It's the obvious thing to do with it, since that's basically the only in-game objective. 00:55:03 (make more stuff) 00:55:54 and I'm assuming there are no upgrade goal shapes, only level goal shapes, and the pipes have a fixed speed, and most levels don't unlock any reward other than the next level, though some early levels unlock certain mine fields so you can only mine cubes at the start 00:56:08 the first shape is a full uncolored cube 00:56:21 first goal shape 00:57:00 but there are also multiple level shapes accepted at a time so you can pick what you do first 00:57:37 so it's more like an achievement digraph than a sequence of levels 00:58:09 oh also note that the fact that shapez.io signals operate on items like pigments and shapes makes the logic design relatively intuitive. 00:59:04 int-e: you could probably have a signal system like that here too, with two input wires and an output wire making a virtual stacker/painter/mixer, while an input wire and two output wires make a virtual cutter 00:59:14 that's just not what sprang into my mind for some reason 00:59:45 you need a bit more than those obviously, I'm not fully specifying the gates 01:02:01 you may be right that that's a better idea 01:02:18 I do know that the wire routing and logic gets very annoying and hard to debug with the shape detector that I proposed 01:03:17 I did make sure that there's enough space to lead wires out of each magic cubie in a detector with some to spare, but still 01:03:28 it's 96 signals 01:03:34 120 if you read color too 01:05:23 do you have anything like filters? 01:05:32 you'd probably get hopelessly lost trying to debug your logic unless you're like one of the gods that created 6502 01:05:55 int-e: not directly, no 01:06:27 though you could have boolean shape gates with two inputs and one output, picking one of two choies 01:06:47 rather than just the boolean shape gates with one pipe input and two output that I mentioned before 01:06:50 just for simplicity 01:06:55 b_jonas: yeah I'd worry that the only way to manage thay would be ICFP style (write a compiler, router, etc. to do most of the work) 01:07:04 thay -> that 01:07:08 yeah 01:07:43 I mean the contest, of course, not the conference 01:08:34 maybe I should ditch all the pigments and color and just consider shapes 01:09:46 because that's still like (1+8+12+24)^8-1 different shapes 01:10:09 (one more if you allow the empty shape, whether you want that isn't obvious) 01:10:51 no wait 01:10:59 (1+1+8+12+24)^8-1 different shapes 01:11:43 less than how many shapes shapez.io has admittedly 01:12:23 it would be (1+(1+8+12+24)*8)^8 with colors 01:13:17 oh by the way, there are no concentric layers, the shape is just eight octant with up to one shape-octant in each, not four nested shells of this 01:13:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:13:55 the stacker only glues shapes, it doesn't put one shape inside another, and if one of the input shapes is too big then it just clogs the stacker 01:14:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:15:06 Hmm. I'll say this... if shapez.io didn't have the shape/pigment signals, I'd probably not have bothered with building an MAM 01:15:47 But if you do have those, then the huge number of possible shapes becomes far less of an issue 01:16:20 by the way, if you just want a Factorio/Mindustry-like game with 2D and belts working this way, with priority merges and splits and crossings working how I described (split has side output at high prio, merge has straight output with higher prio) then you'd build filter splitters (as in Factorio filter splitters or Mindustry sorters) on a cubie 01:17:07 int-e: sure, but the hypothetical shapez 3D that I'm describing has orientation of the octants, which shapez.io doesn't have 01:17:42 oh sure, I got that. I guess you're saying that that's a bit like colors 01:18:05 it adds difficulty at least. I'm not sure how much it's like colors or not. 01:18:08 in the sense that it's extra processing that has to be managed 01:18:16 on top of just selecting the right shape 01:19:29 > 1+8+12+24 01:19:29 imagine the earliest goal shapes are a full cube (teaches mining and piping), a half cube (teaches cutting), sphere, then two half-spheres touching at their round tip (teaching that stacking cares about the direction of the inputs), then you get into less and less symmetric goal shapes 01:19:30 45 01:20:32 Produce a supply of each? Eh it's really impossible to plan without knowing what the logic layer will look like... or what kind of devices you have for rotating things etc. 01:21:17 int-e: just deliver 10 of it to the hub 01:21:38 I did define rotating, or try to 01:22:17 So... when playing this, is there a reason to use the 3rd dimension for more than routing and compact standard building blocks? 01:23:08 if you have a corner in a pipe, with one input pipe and one output pipe to a cubie, then it rotates the shape; while splitters, mergers, joiners, cutters, painters don't change the orientation of the octants (absolute to the playfield) 01:23:18 (by "standard building block" I mean higher level blocks you design and copy around) 01:23:31 there is a reason to use the 3rd dimension, yes: 01:23:53 joiners, cutters, and rotators care about the orientation of their input pipes, 01:24:06 Which btw is something that Infinifactory does *not* have. It's not really about throughput and replicating machinery. 01:24:18 IIRC 01:24:52 so if you have an input pipe and two output pipes, one north and one south, then it cuts the shape north-south, but if the two output pipes are west and east then it cuts east-west, and if the two output pipes are up and down then it cuts to up and down halves 01:24:59 Hmm, there was a selection mechanism though, which I remeber using quite a bit for *moving* things. Maybe you can copy stuff too. I forgot! 01:25:41 and you need to use a merge with the straight input unused to rotate your shape in a way that doesn't keep the direction facing the way the shape moves in the pipe 01:25:48 that combined with a rotator 01:27:08 and, while you don't necessarily need to rotate (cube or) sphere octants because you can mine all (one or) eight orientations, you do have to rotate cylinder and hexagon octants 01:27:09 I guess the fact that the z dimension has "only" 16 layers is already the answer... at large scale this will be mostly 2D 01:27:33 with 3D used locally 01:27:47 oh well 01:27:49 int-e: yes, that's the big problem, it's hard to make a video game UI that displays this well, and even harder to make one that controls well 01:28:03 it's probably hard already with 16 layers 01:28:43 at least until computers get holographic displays and a bat (3D mouse that you move in 3 to 6 degrees of freedom) 01:29:06 Even with holographic displays our perception is still largely 2D 01:29:41 int-e: yes, and your muscles are 2D and you walk on 1D roads and stairs/elevators, but you can still move around a 3D building 01:29:58 Sure, using stairs and elevators. 01:30:00 but we can't build arbitrarily high yet 01:30:17 so you only need to navigate like twenty-something layers at most 01:30:31 more if you live in a city with skyscrapers probably 01:32:15 (NET, which is among the highest buildings in Budapest, has 21 layers above ground AFAIR, perhaps some basement levels, and there's two layers of underground very close to it on the street for the metro station 01:32:20 ) 01:33:15 (the parliament is taller but has fewer layers, and the cathedral may or may not be taller) 01:33:51 heck I'm wrong 01:33:55 it's more than 21 01:33:55 wow 01:34:43 apparently like 24 or 25 layers? I'm not sure 01:35:22 I think they're conventionally called floors 01:35:36 though that excludes the rooftop 01:35:43 the internet says 24 01:36:10 so at least 26 layers on Nagyvárad tér 01:38:46 I don't insist on exactly 16 layers of cubies by the way 01:40:29 11 layers is enoguh in theory, but I want to leave a bit more for convenience 01:43:04 and it's likely that you would have to change much more of this to get a usable video game, or that the whole 3D shapes idea just doesn't work out, though I'm pretty sure just the belts on edges in 2D would work 01:43:40 by the way in the 2D factorio-like version of this, you'd build factory buildings on a rectangle of cube tiles, and instead of inserters you lead a belt directly into or out the boundary 01:44:10 so part of the belt is visible, disappearing in a gate of the building 01:45:06 Sorry, I'll sleep now. 01:45:10 in TTD/OpenTTD you build roads on edges just like this, only it's not just two but four different orientations of road on an edge, and you build a lot more things other than roads 01:45:33 yeah, I should too. but we have a channel log. g'nite. 02:19:35 thank you for mentioning Infinifactory. definitely worth knowing about at least. 06:32:50 -!- tromp has joined. 06:42:00 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…). 12:19:03 -!- Thelie has joined. 12:22:17 [[Basic Programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104166&oldid=104160 * Oshaboy * (+24) Sinclair Basic 12:46:54 -!- Koen has joined. 13:15:42 -!- tromp has joined. 14:06:23 -!- Thelie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:35:25 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andor ch * New user account 14:42:57 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104167&oldid=104092 * Andor ch * (+245) ~~~~ 14:45:10 [[User:Andor ch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=104168 * Andor ch * (+261) Created page with " Hi my name is andor_ch, we are working on [https://www.brainfuckconsole74.ch www.brainfuckconsole74.ch]. This is a fantasy console and extends brainfuck on several simple co..." 14:46:19 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Brainfuck Screen.png]]" 14:47:04 -!- Thelie has joined. 14:47:38 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Picture all.png]]" 14:48:41 [[User:Andor ch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104171&oldid=104168 * Andor ch * (+37) 14:51:45 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104172&oldid=104162 * Andor ch * (+25) Added a entry for brainfuckconsole74 a fantasy console extending brainfuck 14:54:24 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=104173 * Andor ch * (+250) Created page with " BrainFuckConsole is a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_video_game_console minimalistic fantasy console]. The idea of this console: It could be come from the 70ies of th..." 14:58:52 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Screen shot.png]]" 15:03:15 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Screenshot.png]]" 15:03:24 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104176&oldid=104173 * Andor ch * (+267) 15:05:44 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104177&oldid=104176 * Andor ch * (+149) 15:07:03 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Andor ch * uploaded "[[File:Webseite.png]]" 15:09:33 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104179&oldid=104177 * Andor ch * (+172) 15:11:42 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104180&oldid=104179 * Andor ch * (+70) 15:12:15 [[Whenever]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104181&oldid=30436 * Yes * (+335) expanded it a little 15:13:00 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104182&oldid=104180 * Andor ch * (+84) 15:13:27 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https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104201&oldid=104200 * Andor ch * (+1) 15:50:01 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104202&oldid=104201 * Andor ch * (+58) 15:52:27 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104203&oldid=104202 * Andor ch * (+196) 15:54:44 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104204&oldid=104203 * Andor ch * (+298) 16:06:03 [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104205&oldid=101603 * Maxdefolsch * (-23) /* Optimizing implementations */ 16:16:24 -!- SGautam has joined. 16:16:30 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104206&oldid=104204 * Andor ch * (+9) 16:18:02 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104207&oldid=104206 * Andor ch * (+30) 16:19:04 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104208&oldid=95115 * Andor ch * (+14) /* Input/output capabilities */ 16:19:27 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104209&oldid=104207 * Andor ch * (+25) 16:21:00 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104210&oldid=104209 * Andor ch * (+31) 16:22:40 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104211&oldid=104208 * Andor ch * (-8) 16:27:32 -!- __monty__ has joined. 16:49:37 -!- Thelie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:51:44 [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104212&oldid=102066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-202) /* Commands */ 17:00:04 [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104213&oldid=104212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-155) /* Program structure */ 17:12:44 [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104214&oldid=102068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-259) Update header, scroll, remove smart quotes 17:24:57 [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104215&oldid=79338 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Implementation */ Category 17:28:00 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104216&oldid=104210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-37) /* Metagame */ Remove nonexistent categories, fix category 17:28:08 [[Brainfuckconsole74]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=104217&oldid=104216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) /* Metagame */ . 17:40:31 -!- razetime has quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 17:52:02 -!- Thelie has joined. 18:46:31 -!- Koen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:19 -!- Koen has joined. 18:53:52 -!- Thelie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:25:57 -!- SGautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:56:43 -!- Koen has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 20:35:39 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: Disconnecting). 21:25:44 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:52:33 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OrrinPants * New user account 22:09:26 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:45:37 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:46:09 -!- chiselfuse has joined.