< 1722297608 738209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: And that would potentially allow total languages to be TC. Of course we know that this doesn't actually work, but it requires some theory.
< 1722297623 574912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not just definitions.
< 1722297640 211336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Indeed, without any further constraints, Set + 1 ≈ Pfn. This is because Pfn is defined over *all* partial functions, not just some computable universe.
< 1722297689 809272 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo the main reason is that I'm bored and as I said I have a hunch that it is possible not in the finite case but in the infinite case
< 1722297722 766344 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Understandable. I'm afraid your hunch is wrong but it certainly is for an interesting reason.
< 1722297755 35074 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx you can think of Ar as unrolled BA
< 1722297787 556006 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, if nothing else, I think http://tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15.pdf is quite interesting. If you have a category-theory allergy, https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0305282 is delightful and has many more examples.
< 1722297800 640887 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1722297946 678444 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: well, if you are simulating BA's main loop with an infinite repetition of the code, and all other operations and abilities are equal, I'd consider that equivalent, and therefore TC (based on trust of BA) 
< 1722297972 493231 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I've looked at those links before they all comes down to d(n) = 1+u(n,n) and that is just not a problem in Ar or Ar2 or Ar3
< 1722297991 911449 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1722298115 510711 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: That's not the issue; the issue is the transformations without fixed points. For example, Ar2 features negation, and negation has no fixed point.
< 1722298155 647678 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, looking again at n and 2 ** n, the problem is not n at all! The problem is 2, and specifically the transformation 2 → 2 which has no fixed point because it sends true to false and vice versa.
< 1722298163 929284 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I guess "basically" was doing some extra work in my "by definition" claim :) The proofs and wisdom we have make Total and TC languages safely mutually exclusive, I can't imagine someone finding some example that is both.  
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< 1722298365 485304 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1722298636 259471 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I didn't get what you mean and maybe you didn't get what I mean
< 1722298727 969094 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i;m not following some of the function and diagolisation arguments, I'm just trying to get TC claims straight
< 1722298827 530975 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx it's just a claim I don't have any proof [yet]
< 1722299021 54685 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo can you explain your understanding of diagoanlization and fixed point a little more ? maybe it will resolve my confusion
< 1722299356 181121 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: the diagonalization argument is similar to last time near https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-02.html#lRc , it's just more complicated here because you are composing functions with an unlimited number of arguments
< 1722299446 956761 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx my goal with Ar and Ar2 and ... is to use it as a practical language and a total model of computation so if I can show that you can program very easily using it then I can confidently say it is TC
< 1722299578 143126 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I'm basically with Lawvere. In a Cartesian-closed category (a simply-typed lambda calculus), we can write a combinator that looks like (lambda (f x) (f x x)).
< 1722299588 671696 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas you weren't convinced then that diagonalization does not work for Ar ? Ar is just unrolled BC
< 1722299588 709203 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*BA
< 1722299910 588936 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I understand things, Ar is either total or TC, it can't be both (maybe I need proofs here). If it is TC, it's not because of inc, sub, mul, div, rather it's the ability to simulate a loop with infintely repeated code (which I don't see in the spec but if it is part of the construction it should work), and having enough locations to store and manipulate data to make decisions.
< 1722299923 342771 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'unbounded program length' is a pretty big advantage, and I think that uncontroversially gives you a loop equivalent, which could make something otherwise not TC, TC (this is literally the Z3 glue-the-program-tape-together trick). I don't think that's too controversial, if we're allowing that sort of thing.
< 1722300013 690698 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I'm with https://kar.kent.ac.uk/88974/1/turner.pdf_nocoversheet : "A non-recursive function is logically possible—because Church’s Thesis might be false
< 1722300029 615073 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm inclined to believe that if Ar really is unrolled BC, then it's TC, but that's not a controversial result at all.
< 1722300131 588014 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Lawvere's setup is constructive. Choose the category and an object O which will play the role of 2, and we can look at the arrows O → O to see whether all of them have no fixed points.
< 1722300179 185068 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, there *might* be ways which go around it, but you
< 1722300186 323097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*you're using Z, which obeys these rules.
< 1722300369 343671 :Guest15!~Guest15@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest15
< 1722300414 689738 :Guest15!~Guest15@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1722300436 907516 :Guest15!~Guest15@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i want to change my username on the wiki, is there anyway to do so?
< 1722300460 466848 :Guest15!~Guest15@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if this is not the correct place.person to ask anyone know the correct palce/person?
> 1722300494 82612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134240&oldid=124660 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+91) 10/* External resources */ All of Mazonka's links are dead
< 1722300551 892274 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I'm not super familiar with category theory, can you explain diagonalization like I'm five :D ?
< 1722300627 346014 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.144.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722300678 20053 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx people will argue that because all Ar programs are bounded by a polynomial function no Ar program can compute 2**n or ack function
< 1722300814 311343 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: BA has 6 registers, does Ar have registers or equivalent data storage?
< 1722300910 924777 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo of course I can learn category theory and read the papers with a lot more attention myself but I want to read your explanation
< 1722300989 518939 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx you can think of function arguments as input registers and functions values as output registers
< 1722300998 617448 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: The second paper I linked, Yanofsky 2005, avoids category theory and explains it using sets. If you're already doubting Cantor's theorem, though, then that's not going to help.
< 1722301080 427588 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing is that, right now, you don't have *evidence* against these classic theorems, just a hunch. And so Newton's flaming laser sword, or even Hitch's razor, says that your position is bogus.
< 1722301119 35459 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I could explain all day and night using every metaphor I've ever heard, and it still might not help you.
< 1722301630 105676 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I think theorem 2 of the second paper is true but that does not contradict my claim that there is a total and turing complete language
< 1722301673 246878 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: in Ar2.py I think you're missing a i(a, b) def
< 1722301824 436094 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a changelog for uxn?
< 1722301865 724176 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I'm willing to believe that maybe Ar is TC with some infinite program trick, but then it's not going to be Total, so I also doubt your overall claim. I see it as either TC or not, and either way no existing theorems or proofs are shattered.
< 1722302133 589222 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I agree. So, let's focus on that claim, because it does fall between the cracks, definitionally, and it doesn't appear related to diagonalization. So, first, what *is* a total language or a TC language? I could guess, but I can't think of any guesses which satisfy both.
< 1722302159 801536 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We're not talking about the language, but the *programs* written in the language, yes? The language just gives us codes for those programs.
< 1722302162 933953 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sgeo: i think this is the official repo for uxn: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/uxn  (it was a little hard to find)
< 1722302206 612617 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :commit log: https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/uxn/log
< 1722302218 585513 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx that is not important I created Ar2.py online and I didn't copy that function from my computer
< 1722302251 472891 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, "total" means that every program has a well-defined mapping from inputs to outputs, and "TC" means that there is a program which implements e.g. a universal TM.
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< 1722302321 874131 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo by TC I meant that it can compute all total computable functions
< 1722302377 335621 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1722302391 47509 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx, I don't see the spec in there. I'm interested because I saw some old stuff talking about instructions that trap, but the current spec never traps
< 1722302395 785601 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :except brk maybe
< 1722302397 557287 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Okay. Then this is very easy: Halting is not computable, so the total function TM → 2 which tells us whether each TM halts is not computable either.
< 1722302460 158660 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo yes we are talking about the set of programs that you can write using only 4 or 1 or any other number of total functions
< 1722302485 387898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not really possible to run away from this because of what I mentioned earlier: your TC language must have a program which universally interprets TMs, and we can feed never-halting TMs into that program to make it run forever.
< 1722302526 547155 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo halting is not a total computable function
< 1722302533 407937 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Halting
< 1722302556 335522 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Okay, so "total" means something more limited too.
< 1722302562 360970 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: you've probably found https://100r.co/site/uxn.html and https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxntal_reference.html .. I don't really know uxn, but it has been on my radar for a long time
< 1722302653 437435 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo why do you mean by "more limited" ?
< 1722302685 775870 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I mean that there are plenty of total non-computable functions, so "total language" must mean something that is much more limited.
< 1722302764 150136 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do know uxn, and I had written an implementation
< 1722302782 72659 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Turing-complete" means "complete for TMs"; it means that any task a TM can do, your language can do. But that means that, like a TM, your language must be able to run forever, so it can't be total.
< 1722302796 550974 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The only way around this is to automatically detect the TMs that run forever, which is Halting.
< 1722302804 73827 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is also a IRC channel #uxn on Libera for discussing uxn, too.
< 1722302869 254866 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think you are saying what I was trying to say, but better. I'll stay silent on this and just listen for now.
< 1722302920 681602 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: Honestly, I feel like you and ais523 already put it best, and I worry that I'm like Mojo Jojo, repeating myself endlessly and unhelpfully.
< 1722302963 168235 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not know of any change log for the official specification of uxn/varvara, although I wrote my own documentation which I intended to match the official specifications, and those documents are in a version control so it might be possible to look at that for some idea of a change log of the specification, although I cannot guarantee its accuracy or completeness, and it does not go all the way back.
< 1722302992 577470 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo if you have a total and turing complete language then you don't need to worry about the halting problem because everything you write always halt so I don't understand why you are interested in non-computable functions ?
< 1722303096 926013 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: What does "Turing-complete" mean here?
< 1722303131 782267 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo being able to compute all total computable functions
< 1722303207 195579 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Okay. Without loss of generality, those computations are going to be given to you as Turing machines. (You can pick *any other* Turing-complete language, of course. That's why TC is such a powerful concept.)
< 1722303332 707645 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo why do you want to speak TM/gibberish when you can speak Ar/English
< 1722303344 980546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: You haven't proven that Ar is Turing-complete, so you can't pick it.
< 1722303397 41851 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Computer scientists usually use this in the other direction: build a language, implement an emulator for something Turing-complete, *then* claim that the language is also Turing-complete because the emulator is faithful.
< 1722303806 293533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: There *is* a natural Turing-complete problem which is adjacent to Ar, but it can't be used to save your hope of a total-and-TC language. Ar implements Diophantine equations for *one* parameter, the inputs. Searching for *all* parameters is TC.
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< 1722304118 603486 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:d2c:186c:7e70:a223 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1722304739 466417 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure how helpful this is, but this is my attempt at a infinte loop counter in Ar (as I understand it), with notation to specify a left and right infinte string: "inc("<sup>ω</sup> . "0" . ")"<sup>ω</sup>
< 1722304862 779244 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's a trivial example of non-Totalness.
< 1722305006 149725 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx what do you mean by "example of non-Totalness" Ar is a total language. and I didn't get your infinite loop counter can you clarify?
< 1722305006 962042 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like I mentioned the other day, I'm using <sup>ω</sup> to mean repetions of the string by the first infinite ordinal number.
< 1722305077 244219 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a program that doesn't terminate. It's infinte copies of "inc(" followed by a "0", then terminated by infinite copies of ")"
< 1722305180 895287 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that will increment for ever. At first I thought you were unrolling BA by allowing "<contents of loop program" x infinitely repeated, but it looks like there is no external storage, so everything has to be nested
< 1722305264 473015 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: from the Ar readme "you can see that in the limit (unbounded program length) these four functions are turing complete", this is what I think I'm allowed to do with it
< 1722305390 742078 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx I meant that if you allow unbounded program length then obviously any total computable function is easily computable in Ar you just write the definition of the function in semi-English
< 1722305464 477083 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that what you meant by "unbounded program length"? I think allowing left infinite strings is weirder than just right infinite strings, but it's all a bit weird. I'm exploring infitem omega-words in other projects, so I'm kinda interested in infinite strings.
< 1722305663 788957 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's possible I have misunderstood you, but I took 'unrolled BA' and this "unbounded program length" mean program input could be a infinitely long string of source code.
< 1722305707 474790 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx my goal with Ar,Ar2,Ar3,... is to came up with a total model of computation that is also a practical language for programming and teaching not as an esoteric language I thought this community maybe interested in a total and TC language.
< 1722305749 331904 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx program length can be infinitely long but that turn Ar into an esoteric language not a practical language
< 1722305834 404567 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I think the _only_ way to make Ar TC, in the absence of loops is by allowing infinite source. I thought that is the argument you were making in comparing it to BA.
< 1722305926 66075 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BA has a handful of registers, and a loop (implicit or specific? there is a loop at any rate), those are quite important for its TCness. I don't think the 4 functions are that relevant to TCness. 
< 1722305969 900987 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There was some very misleading stuff in the Z3 article which I think I've tidied a bit (that was my main concern)
< 1722306266 775360 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"total model of computation that is also a practical language for programming and teaching" seems like a worthwile goal, but I think you'll have trouble demonstrating a language that is really both total and TC. I think you'll find it is one or the other.
< 1722306407 725612 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx I haven't studied BA that much but at first glance it's like a "while True: f(n)" where f is a total function using only add,sub,mul,div that can crash when division by zero occurs. if you unroll the loop you get iterations of f(n) using only four operation. now comes the question: is there an UNrollable function ?
< 1722306498 477617 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx *is there an UNrollable but computable function ?
< 1722307352 991761 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure i understand the question sorry. The only way I can think of 'unrolling' the function with the tools you have provided in Ar is by repeating source code infinitely like I did above. That's not going to contradict anything krovo said tho.
< 1722307686 743908 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my apologies for being too esoteric, I took "it's TC because of infinite source code" at face value, and it made sense to me, I'm laughing now because I wrote infinitely long code, probably based on a misunderstanding (mine)
< 1722307739 313083 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx what about Ar2 and Ar3 ?
< 1722308028 517884 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx I meant to say can you write ackermann function with Ar2 or came up with a way to loop or iterate easily in Ar2 or Ar3 ?
< 1722308285 376555 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx I haven't said that there is no need for apology I didn't thought your comment was too esoteric
< 1722308515 347139 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.248.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722309923 900817 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, ack = lambda m, n: inc(n) if isNonZero(m) else ack(dec(m), 1) if isNonZero(n) else ack(dec(m), ack(m, dec(n)))  works, but uses Python `if` and recursion
< 1722309986 114660 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ack = lambda m, n: If(m, inc(n), If(n, ack(dec(m), 1), ack(dec(m), ack(m, dec(n)))))   runs into recursion problems using the current Ar2 If, I haven't tried yet to shotcut the evaluation if it's not needed
< 1722310050 110646 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. the logic seems inverted from what I'd expect isNonZero(0) == 1 , but i can work with that
< 1722310247 377700 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can think of u in Ar2 as a universal database and function using u as queries of the database, now without using the recursion of python and using only u can you write a query that computes ack ?
< 1722310552 197548 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but it involves a while loop, which i guess i could simulate by allowing infinite arguments or some other infinite repetition of source code
< 1722312460 852770 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol, i was doing well until i came to implementing 2**(n + 3) - 3 , and i think that was mentioned earlier as being hard/impossible. I already used up one infinity for faking a loop. I'm going to stop for the day on this, but i'll probably pick this up later because I already have a partial PMMN ackerman function that's going to need similar effort
< 1722312697 658320 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Okay, I'm starting to get a little worried. Please notice that there is no value of e (the first argument to u) such that (lambda x: u(e,x)) computes the following sequence starting at 0: 1, 3, 5, 1, 2, …
< 1722312731 438247 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generated this in the traditional fashion: [u(x, x) + 1 for x in range(20)]
< 1722312762 705613 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recognize that you disagreed with this earlier, but we never got to *why*. So, please explain why this isn't a diagonalization.
< 1722312971 172959 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo if you believe that you can compute any total computable function using u then g(x) = 1+u(x,x) = u(u(x,x)) is also a total computable function but u does not have an index for it
< 1722312997 717104 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: So u isn't a universal database, even if you believe it is.
< 1722313116 822275 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo consider an ordinary mysql database if your tables does not have a summation column does that mean you can not write a query that does summation ?
< 1722313175 199880 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Please don't be a Gödel crank. You can just choose to not do it.
< 1722313219 300148 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I accept any other alternative
< 1722313244 594134 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: u doesn't have an index for g. Therefore u doesn't have indices for all total computable functions. Done, yes?
< 1722313505 980223 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo yes but do you think u is not a universal operation ?
< 1722313509 720939 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, sorry for being a jerk about this. You gotta understand that anti-Gödelian folks regularly vandalize wikis and derail philosophy/maths forums on a regular basis. There's one crank who's passed away and we're still finding his sockpuppets.
< 1722313557 632902 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: It's clearly not a universal operation, no. This is why I'm worried; it seems like you see the evidence and yet aren't accepting it.
< 1722313682 87422 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo can I compute all total computable functions using u even if u does not have an index for all total computable functions ?
< 1722313755 655664 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I have to say that Ar not Ar2 has an index for g at least there is not proof that it does not have
< 1722313805 165787 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: No, because there aren't other ways to compose multi-parameter functions besides Kleene's operations. So, if there were some func that u could compute, but u didn't have an index, then it would have to be composed from other funcs that u doesn't have indices for either, and there's no acceptable base case.
< 1722313821 678180 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I was using Ar2.py from your repository. I had to remove the tests because they weren't importable.
< 1722314027 280920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you pick a code for Ar, then the same construction will go through. Diagonalization is an algorithm.
< 1722314070 29517 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo let me ask an uncontroversial question what is the set of functions that inc,div,mul,sub in Ar and u in Ar2 computes ?
< 1722314126 535108 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo not that div in Ar is different than Ar2. div in Ar has a gap value meaning n/0 = halt and return n
< 1722314131 660024 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*notice
< 1722314148 275283 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure. I think it's a subset of primitive recursive functionals, but I'm not sure exactly what can be computed.
< 1722314194 194123 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kind of an awkward basis. The traditional basis is zero, succ, and higher-order primitive recursion (zero, succ, and pr in Cammy) but I suppose that your choice is workable.
< 1722314226 874885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This channel's got a weakness for silly bases, which is in your favor. I bet somebody would help you work it out.
< 1722314458 580032 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1722314509 31330 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo does the sentence "Godel's sentence is true and not recursively provable but non-recursively decidable" make sense to you ? if it does you can see that my choice of basis is not that awkward
< 1722314588 942478 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first two parts make sense. The third part sounds tricky but not important right now.
< 1722314634 313148 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fix a first-order arithmetic like PA and a Gödel coding. The Gödel sentence G is a true fact about *the* natural numbers, but it's also unprovable in PA, which means that PA doesn't know everything about the natural numbers.
< 1722314813 183180 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't see what the choice of basis has to do with it though. If you choose a basis that isn't strong enough for Gödel coding (as suggested by sub and div) then you can't prove a bunch of standard facts about natural numbers, e.g. that there are infinitely many even numbers or infinitely many primes.
< 1722314849 223967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is just because weaker theories tend to ratify modular arithmetic, which has only finitely many natural numbers for any chosen modulus!)
< 1722315366 165339 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, done being ranty on IRC. Have a good night.
< 1722315469 70479 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I have one more question if you have time
< 1722315476 816650 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: Go for it.
< 1722315544 563125 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo in Ar2 you can define an anti-diagoal function that u does not have an index for it, how does this match in your model ?
< 1722315675 992858 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo and if you let me ask another one, you didn't say anything about the gap value of div in Ar, how does that match in your model ?
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< 1722315763 640091 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :An esolang is being sold on Steam.
< 1722315767 961141 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I... cannot process this.
< 1722315787 2946 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's like a Zachtronics game?
< 1722315892 761214 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which one? I have seen the various kinds of games that involve effectively coding for exotic machines, yes, Zachtronics is what i've seen
< 1722315975 847979 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: I'm running out of steam, but arbitary powers of 2 will be hard. po2 = lambda *a: (mul(a[0], sub(2, isNonZero(a[1]))), If(a[1], 0, dec(a[1]))
< 1722316009 228267 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then an infinite run of po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(*po2(2, dec(5)))))))))))))))))  will let you compute 2**n
< 1722316020 617941 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx, A=B
< 1722316037 993160 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :It calls itself a "Zacklike" in its description
< 1722316051 864106 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Zachlike"
< 1722316066 476455 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... but i'm being silly with infinities, and i think i'm cheating with mulitple return values, and encoding multiple things in one value is made hard in Ar2
< 1722316215 805773 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx if you allow infinite length program in Ar or Ar2 you can define all computable and non-computable functions very easily using nested If and eq as condition
< 1722316318 681926 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: can you implement a function that returns 2**n without infinities?
< 1722316472 810511 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx that is the thing that is controversial because to prove that 2**n > n^a for large value of n you have to take the limit so it is not clear who is cheating mathematicians or programmers
< 1722316621 597134 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :correction 2**n > n**a where a is constant
< 1722316652 125778 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: I've just looked at A=B, it looks like the language is Thue / string rewriting
< 1722317158 545233 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, i think i created a 2**n function in Ar2, but only by faking loops and recursion out of infinite source code, so it's basically still just loops and recursion. I could return a single value by using fixed width cells of any finite size. To prime encode unbounded registers i'd need to use arbitrary exponentiation, which lack of loops makes hard.
< 1722317403 424708 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1722317911 421265 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx infinite length program is a good joke but I don't think it is a fun practice
< 1722318038 637316 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you saying there is another way to implement 2**n in Ar2? I'd be interested to see it 
> 1722318264 804111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134241&oldid=134198 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+791) 10/* C-INTERCAL with Funge-98 bug */
< 1722318275 364455 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx if you believe in a breakthrough in computing that allows us to transcend space and time then it is possible but it might take an infinite amount of time to figure it out :D
< 1722318612 244518 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo are you still here ? because I have to go too
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< 1722319030 43569 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Raoof: My approach to Ar2 doesn't say anything at all about those properties. It treats u as a black box. Have a good night.
< 1722319174 358911 :Raoof!~Raoof@ip251.ip-167-114-76.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :have a good night everybody bye for now
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< 1722319255 137981 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we we agree that a TC language can compute 2**n? (i think i've lost track of what we're trying to prove or disprove at this point)
> 1722319626 34248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134242&oldid=134190 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+136) 10
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> 1722320566 381465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turtle just want to dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134243&oldid=134225 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+665) 10
> 1722320602 82348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134244&oldid=134242 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+291) 10
> 1722320905 800331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turtle just want to dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134245&oldid=134243 5* 03Gggfr 5* (-6) 10/* how it works */
> 1722320930 179983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134246&oldid=134244 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+80) 10
> 1722321131 586239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134247&oldid=134193 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+11) 10/* S */
> 1722321142 142687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turtle just want to dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134248&oldid=134245 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+8) 10
> 1722321207 65576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turtle just want to dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134249&oldid=134248 5* 03Gggfr 5* (-8) 10
> 1722321215 245705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pendulum Instruction Set Architecture14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134250 5* 03Sgeo 5* (+171) 10/* Broken links */ new section
> 1722322825 1546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EvyLah/ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134251&oldid=133766 5* 03EvyLah 5* (+895) 10stringcell starting
< 1722322840 807364 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wait a moment, re https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-07-28.html#lTc how do you construct RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:--Cy---- that way?
< 1722322861 287806 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I haven't written a program to try.)
< 1722322898 21534 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I'm stupid
< 1722322931 459413 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait
< 1722322934 495560 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't get it
< 1722322957 943373 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll probably eventually have to write a program for all this shapez stuff, just because I still have some general questions that I'd like to know the answer for, not just this thing
> 1722323145 565821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134252&oldid=134246 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+15) 10
> 1722323348 405842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Quantum logic circuit 5*  10New user account
> 1722323391 434762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134253&oldid=134042 5* 03Quantum logic circuit 5* (+162) 10
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> 1722323504 52916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quantum logic circuit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134254 5* 03Quantum logic circuit 5* (+112) 10Created page with "'''Quantum logic circuit''' is an important concept used in quantum computing.  [[Category:Quantum_computing|?]]"
> 1722323552 841996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quantum logic circuit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134255&oldid=134254 5* 03Quantum logic circuit 5* (+19) 10
> 1722323574 896792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quantum logic circuit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134256&oldid=134255 5* 03Quantum logic circuit 5* (+9) 10
< 1722323668 957348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://xkcd.com/2965/ => this one would have been funny ten years ago, back when we were making jokes about that tobacco store that burned down here in Budapest. it's less funny now after the 2020 explosion of unclaimed ammonium nitrate in Beirut, and since the parliament forced tobacco products out of ordinary supermarkets so now they're all sold in dedicated tobacco stores that sell almost nothing 
< 1722323674 970103 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but alcohol and tobacco, so there's now so many tobacco stores that you do expect some to burn down, plus one actually burned down close to where I live a few years ago.
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< 1722331160 640309 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I rescind my objection. RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:--Cy---- is just impossible, and RgRgRgRg:------Sb:------Sc:----Cy-- can be built by just joining a zigzag on top.
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< 1722334537 486263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yeah the quadrant-supporting-opposite-quadrant is a fairly big class of shapes that can't be made
< 1722334561 586388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So anything like Cc------:----Cc--
< 1722334578 745501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with optional slices above and below
< 1722334607 605883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I can share my code if you like but it's also a fun programming puzzle/exercise.
< 1722334646 112107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I like working with bit masks)
< 1722334680 409198 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, this is easier if I program myself than if I directly use someone else's code. I may want to compare *results*, to verify that we're computing the same thing, but not the code.
< 1722334700 386196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1722334720 765808 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, one interesting case is RuRuRuRu:------Sb:------Sc:--CgCy-- , which can be built, but only using a top support layer that disappears
< 1722334763 784489 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1722334788 137127 :amby!~ambylastn@host81-158-200-63.range81-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1722334872 261911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ru------:------Sb:------Sc:--CwCw-- is slightly more awkward to make
< 1722335243 22402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: that "parrot" shape is similar in concept too... it requires attaching a floating zig-zag shape with a 5th layer
< 1722335302 573723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I mean the --Wb----:Cg--Cg--:--Sr--Cy:Rw--Rw-- shape)
< 1722335404 202240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: In any case, I find that convincing myself that shapes are impossible really hard.
< 1722335462 770872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm sure that I've given that question more thought than most
< 1722336660 182616 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1722336698 170305 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org
< 1722336698 277519 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
< 1722337476 504909 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'm fine if the impossibility proof is hard since we can brute force it. what I will want to get is two things to prove that the possible shapes are easy: (1) a human-understandable algorithm of how to make any possible shape, even if the proof isn't necessarily easy to understand, further (2) an algorithm of how to make any possible shape
< 1722337477 4657 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's also not too hard to translate to a shapez factory, as in ideally I don't want a huge ROM, but I don't require that the factory must be synchronized like yours is. In both case I'd like a construction that doesn't use much more joins than necessary for the hardest shapes. For (2) I'd like to have not more actual joiners placed in the factory
< 1722337477 504908 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :than necessary (for some reasonable fixed throughput, don't loop everything through one joiner, in fact don't loop anything period). I don't mind if the second makes easy shapes in too many joins. For (1) I'd like one that uses as few tricky joins or cuts as necessary for every shapes, but I don't care if it doesn't optimize the number of
< 1722337478 4502 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :non-tricky joins or cuts for easy shapes such as those you can just build layer by layer.
< 1722337588 196257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Yeah that's slightly different goal from mine. I wanted a (mechanically) uniform recipe without many special cases. I pay for that with the huge ROM.
< 1722337624 416116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The synchronization wasn't a goal initially... it's just something I could relatively easily do on top of those requirements.
< 1722337647 966208 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Plus it allowed me to reuse a good chunk of my existing MAM design.
< 1722337714 374979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ROM "only" stores ~6k shapes btw.
< 1722337715 401749 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can reuse a good chunk of an existing MAM design anyway, like at least the shape farms and pigment farms and selecting 16 quadrants with specific shapes and colors.
< 1722337880 424669 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I get the irony that the MAM that I built can't actually do that, it can only select 12 quadrants with shapes and colors given in the input, not 16.)
< 1722337883 945927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. I'll be interested in what you come up with (if anything, no pressure).
< 1722337917 766932 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, when I feel like writing this sort of program I don't know if I'll want to do this or instead continue the polyomino/polyform counting
< 1722337923 310879 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :My TMAM has 32.
< 1722337967 899000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But can produce 2 belts worth of output for "simple" shapes, so it's not a complete waste.)
< 1722338099 999133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's the worst case, hmm. I think the lightest non-simple shape is Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----Rw-- which would only utilize 4 out of the 32 selection outputs.
< 1722338156 724842 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, here my goal won't be to actually build a shapez true MAM factory, nor to figure out how I'd optimize one, I'd just like to understand the tricky parts enough to know how I could build one if I wanted one
< 1722338176 176334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though, actually... I think my MAM handles that and produces two belts worth of output for that.
< 1722338264 404980 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----RwRw will only utilize 5 out of 32 though.
< 1722338295 786547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's the actual worst case for that design.
< 1722338339 734917 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----Rw-- => I don't think so. that looks like it's easier to build than the rocket, because you can just build Ru------:--Rb---- from cutting an easy two-layer shape, then --Rc----:----Rw-- by cutting another easy two-layer shape, then joining the two
< 1722338386 557578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: And yeah, actually building the true MAM is much more daunting than designing a recipe. I mostly had that part done last year.
< 1722338392 298657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: it'
< 1722338460 196396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Sorry. I actually have a *definition* for "simple shape", which is that it consists of two halves that can be stacked together.
< 1722338519 436813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and here neither left and right half nor north and south half do the trick.
< 1722338567 836442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's still just composed of two half-shapes stacked together, with a tilt. And I detect that and produce two belts of output.
< 1722338595 355259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ru------:--Rb----:--Rc----:----RwRw actually requires stacking three parts.
< 1722338636 264506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that means I can no longer produce two belts of output.
< 1722338719 407753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it also, incidentally I think, requires a 5th layer)
< 1722339132 230126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah Ru------:--RbRbRb:--Rc---- works for that as well and doesn't require a 5th layer. Still talking about the worst case utilization of my TMAM design.
< 1722340254 944370 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.145.57 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722340611 337497 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.145.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722340614 907615 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1722341014 992789 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1722341150 907309 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
> 1722342096 611241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turtle just want to dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134259&oldid=134249 5* 03Gggfr 5* (-2) 10/* the printing extension */
< 1722342551 623927 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 JOIN #esolangs * :weechat
< 1722342717 87585 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ru------:--RbRbRb:--Rc---- => yes, that might be the worst case I've seen in three layers
< 1722342727 100589 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a nice example
< 1722344011 988318 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1722344444 997823 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1722344568 170453 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann JOIN #esolangs lutherann :lutherann
< 1722344652 75128 :cpressey!~weechat@176.254.71.203 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.3.0
> 1722344680 746739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134260&oldid=133768 5* 03Unicodes 5* (+42) 10/* Tests */
< 1722344948 959766 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.120 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722345697 554857 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1722345717 775494 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
< 1722347088 652344 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.120 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1722348455 163475 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1722351331 35930 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collabi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134261&oldid=133979 5* 03Qawtykit 5* (+388) 10/* Added commands */
> 1722351450 744109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collabi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134262&oldid=134261 5* 03Qawtykit 5* (+25) 10added User Edited category
> 1722351518 143616 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collabi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134263&oldid=134262 5* 03Qawtykit 5* (+2) 10
< 1722351704 936494 :visilii!~visilii@188.254.110.186 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1722353403 608052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SLet14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134264&oldid=134258 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+51) 10Categories
> 1722353863 474887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072 bytes B)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134265&oldid=110038 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+103) 10Categories
< 1722354140 73791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I'm mortified at my behavior last night. Gentle reminder that anybody can ask me to leave if I'm being disruptive.
< 1722354290 525451 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1722354819 566528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134266&oldid=134260 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-78) 10typo
< 1722357306 799504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtaf
> 1722357338 658905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134267&oldid=134266 5* 03Int-e 5* (+78) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134266|134266]] by [[Special:Contributions/Tommyaweosme|Tommyaweosme]] ([[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]]) Please stop!
< 1722359889 886644 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is it with crawlers these days? Someone (single IP) has been crawling logs.esolangs.org at a not-crazy rate (2-3 req/s, though since some pages are quite chunky that's ~2 Mbps), but it's been going on for 5 hours, and there's not *that* much of them. Apparently they've re-fetched some of the full-month pages >100 times in the last 30 minutes.
< 1722359914 939060 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You'd think "don't fetch the same page repeatedly" would be like the first thing you implement in a webcrawler.
< 1722360465 908974 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.120 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722361478 927905 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722362784 235793 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: so it's not just that they're fetching the daily pages instead of the monthly?
< 1722363092 741584 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's often up to small site admins like you to choose to teach them this important lesson about crawling. I think you've been very polite about the whole thing so far.
< 1722363249 492249 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is a crawling delay command that can be added into the robots.txt file but I think not all programs will recognize that command. And, I don't know if there is a HTTP response header that can be added to tell it that the file will not be changed in future (or for a specific amount of time).
< 1722363274 393558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: it's likely stupid but the pages are not recognizable as mostly static; there's no Last-Modified or ETag to send back with If-Modified-With or If-Match
< 1722363364 454078 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: if they're fetching dailies and all three formats then five hours with 2 requests per second is less than twice as much as you have pages
< 1722363439 729574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, If-Modified-Since
> 1722363463 162288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ichi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134268&oldid=134207 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+768) 10Added a Hello, World! program
> 1722363845 502683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ichi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134269&oldid=134268 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+9) 10added code to show spaces instead of newlines
< 1722364715 881683 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They were also fetching the daily pages, but only one format. Besides, 5 hours * 3600 seconds/hour * 2 requests/second = 36000 requests; surely that's more than the number of pages? The logs start from 2002 (barely), and 22 years * 400 dates/year (to round up) * 3 pages/date is only 26400 pages.
< 1722364768 612019 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, less than twice as much, but still more. Sure.
< 1722364822 24033 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I at least thought about adding one of those headers, but maybe didn't actually do it.
< 1722364853 338834 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.233.120 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722364915 191004 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The content of all but the last day/month is technically static, though I guess it'd also need to account for any changes to the formatting.
< 1722365104 374785 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I could generate an ETag that's a combination of the raw data file size (since the files are either frozen or append-only) + a format version number I increment for any change.
< 1722365149 155477 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :similarly, Last-Modified could be the maximum of the logical page timestamp and the last time you updated the format.
< 1722365228 92169 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll add that to the list of ideas.
< 1722365453 879172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, this is mainstream news? "Website-Betreiber beschweren sich über gierige KI-Bots" -- "Website operators complain about greedy AI bots"
< 1722365505 97077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :One source is https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/25/24205943/anthropic-ai-web-crawler-claudebot-ifixit-scraping-training-data
< 1722366310 109220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Claude-Web is now known as ClaudeBot. One wonders why (not really, it's absolutely obvious that this subverts robots.txt.)
< 1722366332 833883 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for a while)
< 1722366432 284298 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wonder if that's the explanation for consistent traffic from "facebookexternalhit/1.1" too.
> 1722366499 277381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134270&oldid=133721 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+12) 10
> 1722366513 398699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134271&oldid=134238 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+4) 10/* commands */
> 1722366520 753668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134272&oldid=134271 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-4) 10/* commands */
> 1722366531 763981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134273&oldid=134272 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+4) 10/* programs */
< 1722366537 606008 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meta says at https://developers.facebook.com/docs/sharing/webmasters/web-crawlers/ that "facebookexternalhit/1.1" is when content "was shared on one of Meta’s family of apps, such as Facebook, Instagram, or Messenger", and that they use "meta-externalagent/1.1" for "use cases such as training AI models", but esolangs.org was seeing a constant crawl of all pages using "facebookexternalhit/1.1"
< 1722366539 793759 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(from Facebook's IP ranges).
> 1722366549 959393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134274&oldid=134273 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-4) 10/* polyglot */
> 1722366570 509758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134275&oldid=134274 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+240) 10/* polyglot */
> 1722366583 55764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134276&oldid=134275 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-230) 10/* polyglot */
< 1722366588 163441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe the crawler has started sharing its links on some internal Facebook app ;)
> 1722366599 77612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134277&oldid=134276 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-10) 10/* polyglot */
> 1722366613 47382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134278&oldid=134277 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+0) 10/* commands */
> 1722366628 201411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134279&oldid=134278 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+4) 10/* polyglot */
< 1722366800 49286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( I guess the Preview button must be hidden or something. )
< 1722366983 376906 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname
< 1722367443 654323 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, the wiki has no article on uxntal or uxn, but there are references to both, and one red link to uxntal. uxntal is the correct name for the language i believe.
< 1722367475 559418 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the asm looks pretty normal, but the glyphs and hand signs make it more esoteric
< 1722367532 699881 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: sure, but the User-Agent could just be someone else lying 
< 1722367659 126276 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had suggested before, if maybe someone should add articles about uxn. Note that there is also a nonstandard variant of uxntal (but which can still produce standard binary uxn files).
< 1722367737 347905 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is unusual that it has hand signs, which is something I had not seen in other programming languages.
< 1722368015 18680 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: if you have a shape that is possible, and you remove its top layer, is the remainder shape always possible or empty?
< 1722368169 427460 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: i'll add at least a stub article later today to collect information about the uxn ecosystem, once i get all the terminology straight. I'll focus on the language uxntal. Haven't seen the variant yet, but will add variant details if I find them
< 1722368175 580667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, you already mentioned the parrot, and that's a counterexample
< 1722368190 918589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also that 3 layer example from earlier.
< 1722368219 177778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :generally the top layer may contain quadrants that support lower layers while stacking.
< 1722368230 41763 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you have questions about uxn then I can try to answer them.
< 1722368313 385252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ru------:Rb--Rb--:RcRcRcRc may be the most convincing example
< 1722368319 289533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err
< 1722368327 901215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry
< 1722368345 550770 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Note that the code and documentation of uxn38 (except uxnasm.c) is public domain, in case you need a copy of any of that; the official code and documentation is not public domain.)
< 1722368380 685265 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We have to displace the bottom support to make the example work: --Ru----:Rb--Rb--:RcRcRcRc
< 1722368450 201453 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish/Implementations_%28M-Z%29#Uxn has the nonstandard syntax, although the hex dump below it should be compatible with standard uxn (although I have not tried it, but I would expect it should work)
< 1722368607 444246 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The hex dump is also valid uxntal code)
< 1722368847 574209 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:2246:ab00:b6cf:b9fb:1e6b:4370 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1722369019 384374 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722369028 649469 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can lie about the user agent, but presumably it's harder to lie about the source IP, and I don't think Facebook runs any general-purpose cloud services so that third parties could perform requests that appear to originate from their network.
< 1722369113 647588 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though perhaps "Facebook apps" can do something like that, I don't really know what they are.
< 1722369395 1487 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.203.9 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722370157 337742 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.203.9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722371117 856008 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-414d-4612-f265-dc79.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
< 1722371268 141394 :sprout!~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-f46a-b3d3-7735-3c78.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
> 1722371460 749653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Genewrath14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134280 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+10420) 10Created page with "Genewrath is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] where all data is stored in generic types.  ==Reading of code== Carriage returns and line feeds are completely ignored, and they can be used in the code freely. They can be treated as if they are not in the code; 
> 1722371488 619454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134281&oldid=134247 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+16) 10
> 1722371504 248757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134282&oldid=132881 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+15) 10
> 1722373481 932595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134283&oldid=129869 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (-12) 10If Burn can simulate Rule 110, and Rule 110 is Turing complete, then we must assume Burn is Turing complete until we can prove otherwise.
< 1722373754 558375 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a03:9b40:2246:ab00:b6cf:b9fb:1e6b:4370 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1722374180 288115 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722375458 491205 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann QUIT :Quit: i use arch btw
> 1722375480 747814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Divmeq14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134284&oldid=134171 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+112) 10Added a note about Divmeq quines
< 1722375486 631053 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann JOIN #esolangs lutherann :lutherann
> 1722375768 622196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134285&oldid=134267 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+41) 10cite error: storm
< 1722376004 245315 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idle observation: there seem to be frequent "X is Turing complete (under specific conditions or modification Y)" statements, where the parenthesised bit gets lost.
< 1722376231 224618 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If there are some in esolang wiki that had lost one part, hopefully you can fix it. (That includes my user page and subpages; if you found any problems with them you can fix them since it is the wiki that anyone can improve)
> 1722376330 927778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Quantum logic circuit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134286 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+392) 10Created page with " Welcome to the wiki!  -[>+<---]>++.<-[>>++<<-----]>>-.+++++++.---------.++++++++++++.--.--------.>>-[-[-<]>>+<]>-.<<<<+++[<+++++>-]<.-----.>>>>>.<<<<<+++++.------------.---.>+++[<++++++>-]>>>>.<<<<<.>++[<------->-]<.++.--.>>>>>+. ~~~~"
> 1722376513 608763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134287&oldid=132736 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+860) 10C with only for loops
> 1722377030 336305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134288&oldid=134285 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+157) 10/* Tests */ do we use refs here?
< 1722377060 895387 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1722377128 262009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134289&oldid=134288 5* 03Fizzie 5* (-36) 10/* Instructions */ Restore sandbox instructions (yes, the section title is part of them)
> 1722377227 349964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134290&oldid=134289 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+103) 10more ref on article tests
> 1722377389 292765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134291&oldid=134290 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+66) 10Test the <references /> tag.
< 1722377520 108172 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kinda feel like most of the actual tests people use the sandbox for, they could just do in a preview rather than by editing a page.
< 1722377528 644855 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Including what I just did.)
< 1722377587 468744 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizze: I was literally just doing that with my recent sandbox edit, I considered not saving, but thought maybe other ppl might want to see what refs looked like.
< 1722377648 422923 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not convinced the appended refs will always work at the end of current articles, it needs a heading to make sense, and it can only be the last thing in the article.
< 1722377856 845499 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I was more making a general comment about some TC claims, prompted by R110 is TC (I think I understand it, but it still feels complicated). Filling in the correct Y clearly is often _hard_
< 1722377969 921858 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ok, I would use the wiki thanks for that edit :) I couldn't figure out the tag to do what you just did
< 1722378011 725803 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was trying wikipedia templates which reasonably don't exist here)
< 1722378284 436301 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722378381 336858 :QTpye!~QTpye@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] QTpye
< 1722378435 241307 :QTpye!~QTpye@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, anyone know how to contact an admin from the esolang wiki?
< 1722378465 959217 :QTpye!~QTpye@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it says on the site this is the offical irc channel. i have been unadle to find any refrance on the wiki itself
< 1722378685 742432 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the right place, admins frequent here (and/or read the logs)
< 1722379248 391538 :QTpye!~QTpye@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :im here wondering if i could change the name associated with my wiki account. i could always just make a new account under the new name, and change all the refrances to my new account. but that would be a lot of work, and be messy in terms of keeping tack of what i have done on the wiki.
< 1722379907 201412 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not self-service, but if you put your desired new name somewhere on the wiki (e.g., your own user talk page, or mine) as a way of proving account ownership, I can try to remember how the rename-user function worked.
< 1722379946 329966 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And of course only if the new name doesn't exist already.)
< 1722380062 734882 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Fizzie has one rename request already, so I must've known how to do it at least back then.
< 1722380750 648812 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1722381335 223661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aspwil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134292&oldid=83767 5* 03Aspwil 5* (+99) 10
< 1722381383 771682 :QTpye!~QTpye@232.sub-72-107-229.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there you go, a request on the user talk page of my account, from the account requesting a name change
< 1722381778 718841 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had received many invalid requests on my HTTP server that seems to be TLS as far as I can tell (the first byte of the request is 0x16), although this server is non-TLS (and it is on port 80 only).
< 1722381815 159268 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :QTpye: Do you want redirects left for the old name? (It seems to be the default to do so.)
< 1722382316 844448 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I'll let it use the defaults, and we can always delete them later.
> 1722382322 371963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10moved [[02User:Aspwil10]] to [[User:QTpye]]: Automatically moved page while renaming the user "[[User:Aspwil|Aspwil]]" to "[[User:QTpye|QTpye]]"
> 1722382322 500750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/renameuser14]]4 renameuser10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10Fizzie renamed user [[02User:Aspwil10]] (128 edits) to [[User:QTpye]]: By user request
< 1722382367 351011 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1722382381 812847 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The new name should work for logging in going forward.