< 1722470417 917103 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.249.212 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722470913 153958 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1722470928 573786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` if date +%Y-%m | grep -x 2024-08; then learn 'The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870'; else echo 'not yet'; fi
< 1722470932 287666 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :2024-08 \ Relearned 'password': The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870
< 1722472198 951011 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know BB in detail, and have just been catching up. I was going to ask here if there is a TL;DR (non-Coq) explanation of the recent proof. The answer is: "We aim to have this paper published in the next two years both on arxiv and in recognised computer science venues."
< 1722472628 502028 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my understanding of the proof is that the entire problem space of 5 state Turing machines was divided into classes of 1 or more machines, and each class was proven by whatever method was required (some considerably harder than others).
< 1722473450 377938 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now that all problems that can be represented by 5 state 2 symbol Turing machines are now decided, is there still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting?
< 1722473709 496367 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Almost by definition, none of them can tell us anything about other maths problems. Indeed, one way of looking at it is that we are out of easy BB numbers.
< 1722473854 52626 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was just thinking there is probably a TC language interpreter in 5 state 2 symbol machines (because BB is for a 0 tape), is there a known say cyclic tag interpreter in there?
< 1722474137 190142 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... just thinking through knowing how all programs behave on 0 input doesn't really tell us much about how they would behave on non-zero input.
< 1722474199 500765 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, perhaps. I suppose that those programs would still be interesting beyond "not halting".
< 1722474242 384148 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, like you say, perhaps it's a matter of inputs. BB only cares about inputs in terms of how many states are required to prepare them.
< 1722474601 301764 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :asking how many of those machines are interpreters for Turning complete languages (where the source is written on the init tape) seems like a valid question. Expecting an answer greater than 1 doesn't see too far fetched?
< 1722474641 703141 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't prove anything to find one, but it's slightly interesting
< 1722474690 294232 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be a fun way to 'discover' an esolang
< 1722474756 541981 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps I am overestimating how much can be done with 5 states?
< 1722475064 829459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722475107 600363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: there's a rule 110 interpreter but I think it's 5 symbol 2 state rather than 5 state 2 symbol, not 100% sure though
< 1722475153 378082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it needs to start with a tape that has periodic sections at both ends)
< 1722475187 820851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :finitely initialized tapes are perhaps more interesting
< 1722475280 983373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember seeing an article with TCness records for periodically initialized tapes, but forget where it is
< 1722475293 60318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC it had a 3 state 3 symbol UTM, though
< 1722475722 919865 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting, I had thought I'd heard of low n-state m-symbol machines too. That article sounds interesting. I imagined this sort of thing would have been explored already
< 1722476403 883215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :found it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397508007287 (there's a "view PDF" link at the top)
< 1722476419 323682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's quite old by now
< 1722476517 872444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I constructed a 2-state 14-symbol strongly universal (i.e. finitely initialized, with an explicit halt state) Turing machine: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag
< 1722476693 235196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my link above might be relevant for korvo, too (although it might also be too old)
< 1722476741 237107 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I appreciate it.
< 1722476773 962089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the "cited by" might be a good way to find new TCness results, but unfortunately it seems to be broken
< 1722476793 212217 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably have a table of UTMs in the BB gauge, simply because I'd like to know the Pareto frontier over symbols and states.
< 1722476808 813084 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, that is, how adding +1 symbol changes the number of needed states, and vice versa.
< 1722476889 633369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION bookmarks the page so that it doens't take 20 minutes to find next time
< 1722476890 454106 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents without analyzing the specific machine
< 1722477005 795741 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There do exist compilers that re-encode machines, and those compilers usually have a fixed number of output symbols/states. Other than that, not really.
< 1722477239 85010 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fig 1 in that paper is exactly what I was wondering about, nice! There's a gap at 5 state 2 symbol, and finding one would be a discovery for 2 symbol machines.
< 1722477326 810803 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see that there's a "universal" line, below which things are "weakly universal", which seems to refer to the R110 construction?
> 1722477763 242384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Remove Line Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134363&oldid=114783 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1063) 10
> 1722478570 304992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134364&oldid=133783 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+120) 10
> 1722478705 286212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfih14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134365&oldid=131400 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+955) 10Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp.
< 1722478877 238585 :amby!~ambylastn@host81-158-200-63.range81-158.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1722479575 444052 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.249.212 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1722479618 936894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07X bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134366 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2693) 10Created page with "x bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set is a program designed and implemented by PSTF. This is the ADVANCED version of [[99 bottles of beer]]. It receives two real number as
> 1722479650 847570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134367&oldid=134364 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+71) 10
> 1722479796 718117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wenyan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134368&oldid=128178 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+111) 10
< 1722479845 569520 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like the terms: "semi-weakly universal" for allowing infinite repeated initialisations in one direction, and "weakly universal" for allowing infinite repetitions in both directions (what "R110 is TC" requires). I have wanted the words for this for some time.
< 1722479901 920984 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... they are arguably not great word choices, but I like the fact they are well defined, and exist.
> 1722480088 26836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wenyan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134369&oldid=134368 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+832) 10
> 1722480482 303474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wenyan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134370&oldid=134369 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3579) 10
> 1722480929 841899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Never Gonna Fuck You Up14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134371&oldid=122609 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+459) 10/* */ new section
> 1722481155 115166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Olympus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134372 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1822) 10/* Commands */ new section
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> 1722482080 871275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134374&oldid=133942 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+136) 10
< 1722482361 615724 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A 5,2 direct UTM seems highly unlikely to impossible (same with 5,2 semi-weakly universal), but a weakly-universal one seems possible, just, a proof either way would be interesting. I wonder if there are other R110 like weakly-universal constructs? Based on that paper, R110 is the only method that'd likely work.
< 1722482372 622139 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Neary and Woods have already explored this in their (6,2), (3,3) and (2,4) machines, so maybe there's a reason they couldn't make (5,2). Their paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/0707.4489 doesn't directly say anything that indicates whether (5,2) weakly-universal is likely or not.
< 1722482490 759903 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised
> 1722482838 732421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134375 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1251) 10Created page with " is an Esolang designed by PSTF. It is 3018ad-themed. == Example program ==
That outputs: ..."
> 1722482869 6369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134376&oldid=134375 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6) 10
> 1722482921 421160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134377&oldid=134052 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+41) 10
< 1722483125 571642 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other thing about these weakly-universal machines is they don't necessarily halt, they enter some behavior pattern than can be recognised from outside as halt, the papers talk of a particular kind of r110 glider that will not exist in non-halt states
< 1722483135 828330 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Non-halting 'halt' states is something we have discussed here before.
> 1722483168 947275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/old userpage14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134378&oldid=134349 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+117) 10fix links
> 1722483236 377388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134379&oldid=112102 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3675) 10/* Quine by Wenyan */ new section
> 1722483427 341654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:DWIM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134380 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+280) 10/* Even more programs */ new section
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> 1722483960 619412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134382 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+219) 10Unname4798 can't modify the instructions of [[Esolang:Sandbox]], so I created a new sandboz.
> 1722484002 905110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134383&oldid=134382 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+23) 10
> 1722484082 712433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134384&oldid=134030 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+16) 10
> 1722484925 28588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134385&oldid=134384 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+76) 10
> 1722484932 511398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Sandbox10]]": a) not an esolang; b) we already have a sandbox, we don't need another; c) please do not try to help people circumvent bans, those are placed for a reason
< 1722486647 406176 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is the computational class of only using logic gates with no memory? Just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitpEzNgaHU which showed building logic gates in Pokemon, but not memory
< 1722488203 97274 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It depends on your definition; it could be NC⁰ or AC⁰ depending on which gates you allow. There are more exotic possibilities too.
< 1722488440 677008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: There are a couple possible combinator bases that could be universal aside from inaccessible garbage which doesn't affect the computation, or at least I've been told of the possibility. IIRC, one example is BCIK, which can't forget without W but otherwise still computes stuff.
< 1722488460 85952 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wolfram conjectures that S alone also does this, but I don't think there's any good evidence for it.
< 1722488517 861704 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(To be candid, "Wolfram conjectures P" is, to me, evidence against P.)
< 1722488710 672319 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: funnily enough I was just reading a Wolfram ... related? paper that suggests the bb(5) program itself might be a candidate for being universal, with a conjecture that all all bb(n) (n > 2) are universal
< 1722488834 121848 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: That would be interesting. It would clash with a conjecture of Ligocki that sufficiently-large BB(n) have arbitrarily-large gaps between the champion machine's step count and the runner-up's step count.
< 1722488874 281748 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, Ligocki conjectures that if we add one more state to a TM, then we don't usually get a +1 action to the corresponding BB. We get something that grows much faster.
< 1722488894 180076 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've had thoughts on, and explored the S alone idea, so I know what you are talking about. I felt the bb(n) n>2 conjecture needed a disclaimer, but it was interesting that it pointed to the most likely (5,2) universal machine being bb(5) itself
< 1722488939 453097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But universal TMs (or any universal emulators) usually don't have spare or degenerate states that could be repurposed for this. So I think that a TM has to either spend its states on being good at BB, or being good at universal, but not both.
< 1722489129 680942 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what you say sounds reasonable, that's what I'd imagine too. The paper wasn't especially convincing, but it's an interesting idea. If you are interested, its https://doi.org/10.25088/ComplexSystems.20.3.265
< 1722489167 480720 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do love putting papers onto my reading list.
< 1722489206 892408 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's definitely that whole "if it behaves weirdly enough, maybe it's TC" Wolfram approach, which can be a bit exhausting to reason about
< 1722489309 973279 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION gestures to the Butterfly Effect
< 1722489315 148380 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is this a Turing machine~
< 1722489595 308659 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: Okay, I've watched the video and did some reading. I think the right class is NC⁰, assuming that the game doesn't have some exotic representation for circuits.
< 1722489637 39638 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, it's technically possible that the game encodes a solver for the NP-hard problem of circuit minimization, allowing it to represent circuits that wouldn't otherwise fit in the game... But not likely.
> 1722489870 533615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134386&oldid=81299 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+1) 10/* Assumptions */
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< 1722489979 818548 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo, neat
< 1722489987 143462 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I'm surprised that Google worked on that
< 1722490003 380221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: No worries! Thanks for sharing the video.
> 1722490108 518432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07()()(())14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134389&oldid=134144 5* 03Gggfr 5* (+14) 10/* syntax */
< 1722492260 792246 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1722492400 639970 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)?
< 1722492582 851871 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's definitely possible.
< 1722492689 667072 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't that break bb(n) at some point? Some n will allow arbitrary Turing machines that can run bb(higher n) as null programs
< 1722492996 194324 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I mean, your conjecture sounds good, but also you're right that there could be some BB(n+x) could just happen to be the UTM on empty input.
< 1722493195 913175 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.69 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722493199 812707 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some point, with enough states, you'd get to decide exactly what the null program did (I think?). Does this put a limit on choosing the behavior of the null program, or BB(n) becomes infinite after some n?
< 1722493695 954448 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sorry for missing it when you said, but your Grill Tag significantly changes the curve on that figure, nice work!
< 1722494166 461544 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722494273 965756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)? ← the busy beaver function is uncomputable, I think you have just produced a proof of that
< 1722494325 847729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. the reason you can't make the null program calculate bb(n+x) is that you can't make any program do that (without already knowing the value and hardcoding it)
< 1722494364 720694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, I may have misinterpreted your notation
< 1722494386 546141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or just be generally tired
< 1722494550 964778 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I interpreted salpynx to be imagining a sheer coincidence in some astronomical number of states, rather than something engineered for it.
< 1722494890 56014 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting" => sure, that's basically what writing the human-readable paper means, they want to write each of the no-halt proofs in an as easily understandible way as possible.
< 1722494902 486785 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'm being confusing, I meant bb(n+x) to represent the _program_ that computes BB(n)
< 1722495072 77765 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Hm.
< 1722495085 137825 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you mean running the programs for inputs other than all zero? then I don't know. and for that you have to also consider the programs that do something boring on all zeroes and so weren't interesting for the BB discussion.
< 1722495115 482927 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(do something boring could mean halting, or not halting because they just seek infinitely to find the next 1 symbol on the tape)
< 1722495166 618256 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking of astronomical coincidences, but at some point I was imagining you could iterate through all meanings of the null program as well
< 1722495230 587710 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.146.69 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1722495288 433966 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this puts a limit on what you can code the null program to do, an (n,m) UTM would have some limit on how it can initialise its tape to run a different (x,y) Turing machine
< 1722495402 122696 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents" => there is an easy way to convert to fewer symbols (even 2), by representing each symbol with a group of multiple symbols on the tape, and converting each state to multiple states that first read to determine what simulated composite symbol is under your cursor then skip its parts to move the simulated head. it's just
< 1722495408 131747 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that you won't get any of these record tiny size Turing machines that way.
< 1722495499 492910 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know how you can convert to more symbols in exchange of less states though
< 1722495670 138379 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised" => why? I expect a small universal machine would either halt or easily provable to never halt on an all-zero tape and so is uninteresting for the challenge, because if you're at the limit of so few symbols and states you can't expect the program to be interesting in two ways, as in being a universal interpreter and doing something
< 1722495676 139422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting on zero tape
< 1722495707 622727 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would be like expecting that the earliest video games also have an interesting attract mode when you aren't playing them
< 1722495841 160830 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, korvo already said that
< 1722495876 351180 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised", I was assuming bbchalenge is effectively enumerating all (5,2) Turing machines, so if there is a (5,2) UTM, its on there.
< 1722495974 807636 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :From the reading I've done (in the last few hours :) ) it seems that, if it exists, the (5,2) UTM is weakly-universal, meaning that it'll be a non-terminating machine, or perhaps the UTM is the BB(5) machine itself (if a Wolframlike conjecture happens to be true)
< 1722496145 946798 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are known (2,4), (3,3), and (6,2) weakly-universal UTMs, so my originally totally uninformed idea that a (5,2) might exist isn't as bad as it could've been.
< 1722496227 585782 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's considerably less likely than I originally imagined, and I'm not even going to bother looking for a strongly universal one now, like I might have tried before reading the paper ais523 shared.
< 1722496379 581888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1722496453 347650 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722496872 992342 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see now how you can't enumerate all possible (n+x, 2) candidates as null program inputs to (n, 2) UTMs, because there are more (n+x, 2) programs than (n, 2) ones, and only a fraction of (n, 2)s can be UTMs... So there isn't a systematic way to attack this, but you'd potentially cover _some_, and maybe you'd accidentally hit a higher BB...
< 1722497204 628318 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The core of my idea was that some (n, m) non BB winners _will_ be UTMs, and a UTM can run higher BB(n) programs. If a (n, m) UTM's null program happened to be a higher BB(n+x), then BB(n) _would_ equal BB(n+x).
< 1722497362 443138 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. maybe that's not too profound, but could mean that there's no special reason why the BB number sequence has to increase, two BB numbers could be identical, or it could drop on n+1?
< 1722497441 40635 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that sounds a bit cranky. It's definintely counting on astronomical coincidence, if I'm not missing something more basic.
< 1722497509 516640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1722497565 583513 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's telling me there is a definite limit on what the null program can be made to do, which feels like a suitable esolang thing to examine
< 1722497934 918101 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.23 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722498818 918410 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is the non-coincidental version applying to smaller n: At some n, there are sufficiently many (n,2) UTMs that a subset of them will run every (n-x,2) machine as a null program, for some x > 0.
< 1722499768 1959 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722499949 508563 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.23 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1722501568 183715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134390&oldid=134299 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+53) 10The page Sandbox got removed
< 1722502061 955739 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.23 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722502166 335542 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1722503271 613354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134391&oldid=134390 5* 03Ais523 5* (-53) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134390|134390]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) please stop giving counterproductive instructions
< 1722504423 351191 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722504508 499993 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722504813 858065 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back of envelope calc: at least (79, 2) TMs must be explored to find every (5, 2) TM as a null input UTM: As many states as it takes bits to describe any and all (5, 2) TMs (60 bits) + at least a (19, 2) strong UTM to interpret it, assuming the UTM can just read a pretty efficiently encoded TM and execute it.
> 1722507295 673412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134392&oldid=134391 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+53) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134391|134391]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]): Please stop removing productive instructions!
> 1722507385 462502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134393&oldid=134392 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+84) 10
> 1722507457 450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134394&oldid=134393 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+38) 10
> 1722507496 723470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134395&oldid=134394 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+11) 10
> 1722507505 342061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134396&oldid=134395 5* 03Unname4798 5* (-1) 10
< 1722508396 224317 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1722509889 720631 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` /hackenv/tmp/hlu # ok, so I succeeded to compile a hello world executable outside of HackEso but targeting it, then download it to HackEso
< 1722509891 207013 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ra,
< 1722511692 264337 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1722511809 274913 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll leave this here for comment, it's getting late for me too,
< 1722511816 488051 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The mechanism of hitting a higher BB would be: (b, m) UTM combined with an (a, m) halting TM initialiser machine that just happens to compress a BB(a + b + x, m) init state encoded for that UTM. This would create a (a+b, m) UTM that runs a (a+b+x, M) busy beaver as its null program.
< 1722511829 707907 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I understand that the BB(a + b + x, m) program can't be engineered, it'd have to be discovered, and it's additionally required that its code be generated by an (a, m) halting TM, so there might be data compression limitations. It seems reasonable that BB winners won't be very compressable. The only thing going for this is a large search space, and perhaps not being able to prove it couldn't happen by chance
< 1722512422 313813 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722512801 905556 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.250.174 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722513093 825648 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I must be missing something, if BB(n) can take a shortcut to BB(n+x) by chance, BB(n+1) should be able to take the same one, and so on.
< 1722513373 677068 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1722513683 608734 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1722513683 718658 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1722513722 937181 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1722513724 966898 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1722513879 493262 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1722513919 92003 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722514053 468668 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1722514965 691537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134397&oldid=133068 5* 03Leomok2009 5* (+539) 10
< 1722515436 960994 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:8f40:791a:7ecb:b554 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1722515769 789661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134398&oldid=134357 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+139) 10
< 1722515834 202022 :drakonis!drakonis@user/meow/drakonis QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1
< 1722515847 953229 :drakonis!drakonis@user/meow/drakonis JOIN #esolangs drakonis :drakonis
> 1722516049 635934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134399&oldid=134398 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (-6) 10
< 1722516289 337829 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.250.174 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1722516358 445401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134400&oldid=134399 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+103) 10/* Specifications */
< 1722516672 697892 :drakonis!drakonis@user/meow/drakonis QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1
< 1722516694 370968 :drakonis!drakonis@user/meow/drakonis JOIN #esolangs drakonis :drakonis
< 1722516915 714877 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1722517098 932910 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.202.45 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1722517485 62606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134401&oldid=134400 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+98) 10
< 1722518331 335261 :Guest92!~Guest92@2400:4050:9740:1100:f263:835b:1167:b3e3 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest92
< 1722518698 813731 :Guest92!~Guest92@2400:4050:9740:1100:f263:835b:1167:b3e3 PART :#esolangs
< 1722519575 334972 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1722519907 446618 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently SMBC's recurring supervillain from https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/supervillainy has a name. he's called the Pterrordactyl. I didn't know this because the name rarely appears in strips.
< 1722522674 620965 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1722522879 289000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ichi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134402&oldid=134298 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+57) 10added to the design section
> 1722523024 976620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RainbowDash14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134403 5* 03Xff 5* (+193) 10Created page with "== on [[nope]] hello. your work with my esolang is very good. but there is one error(by me) and that is labels are just commands. jump to nearest like this: store 1 1 jl 1 store 1 1"
> 1722523164 180705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134404&oldid=134403 5* 03Xff 5* (+175) 10
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> 1722523467 852941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134405&oldid=134360 5* 03Xff 5* (+59) 10
> 1722523590 411603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134406&oldid=134405 5* 03Xff 5* (-60) 10
> 1722523752 787043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134407&oldid=134406 5* 03Xff 5* (+53) 10
> 1722524058 326164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134408&oldid=134407 5* 03Xff 5* (+45) 10
> 1722524503 532330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Europe204814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134409&oldid=127771 5* 03Europe2048 5* (+8) 10
> 1722525219 944146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134410&oldid=133676 5* 03Squareroot12621 5* (+249) 10Added Messenger.
< 1722525408 948214 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1722527389 649409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134411&oldid=129597 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+123) 10Categories
> 1722527413 549093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134412&oldid=134411 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10Category
< 1722527758 324812 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1722527919 879312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rnadom14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134413&oldid=134279 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+75) 10Categories
< 1722527992 942108 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@83.223.248.118 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1722528518 708180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07()()(())14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134414&oldid=134389 5* 03Xff 5* (-1) 10/* examples */
> 1722529107 959036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07()()(())14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134415&oldid=134414 5* 03Xff 5* (+26) 10
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> 1722532072 778358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134416 5* 03Pro465 5* (+72) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} AEL (An Esoteric Language) is a WIP esolang by [[User:Pro465]]."
> 1722532141 547255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134417&oldid=134401 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (-33) 10category
> 1722532184 162881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pro46514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134418&oldid=128080 5* 03Pro465 5* (+12) 10/* Esolangs created */ add AEL
> 1722532211 37320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Normalcalc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134419&oldid=134417 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+33) 10category
> 1722532515 816231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Itoh Shimon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134420&oldid=134334 5* 03Itoh Shimon 5* (+58) 10
< 1722532562 816637 :ignucio!~ignucio@user/ignucio QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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> 1722533085 521443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BestCoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134421&oldid=131208 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+64) 10
> 1722533176 343674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BestCoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134422&oldid=134421 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+48) 10
> 1722533197 945851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BestCoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134423&oldid=134422 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-1) 10
> 1722533224 702637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BestCoder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134424&oldid=134423 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+0) 10
< 1722533665 956057 :dawids!~dawids@109.76.251.223 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1722533668 486220 :dawids!~dawids@109.76.251.223 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1722534109 154850 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1722534451 227852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134425&oldid=134416 5* 03Pro465 5* (+722) 10add some instructions
> 1722535506 241206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134426&oldid=133923 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+331) 10
> 1722535594 751660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134427&oldid=134307 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+377) 10
> 1722535774 628284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134428&oldid=134356 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-169) 10
> 1722535836 119632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134429&oldid=134425 5* 03Pro465 5* (+224) 10make it less complicated
> 1722536068 906070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134430&oldid=134429 5* 03Pro465 5* (+170) 10formatting
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< 1722540399 458918 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1722540571 514133 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
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< 1722541553 989608 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
> 1722543698 242890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134431 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+367) 10Created page with "BrainofGolf is an golfing-esolang with [[Brainfuck|bf]] syntax created by [[Ractangle]] ==Commands== ===Brainfuck=== You can use the Brainfuck commands (except the dot) as variable commands {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! It's action |- | " || Turns everything in
> 1722543748 543312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134432&oldid=134431 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10/* Brainfuck */
> 1722543910 457493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134433&oldid=134432 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+56) 10/* BrainofGolf */
> 1722543949 358532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134434&oldid=134433 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+25) 10/* Brainfuck */
> 1722544007 181759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134435&oldid=134434 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* BrainofGolf */
> 1722544120 501198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134436&oldid=134435 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+71) 10/* BrainofGolf */
> 1722544188 899820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134437&oldid=134436 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+23) 10/* BrainofGolf */
> 1722544272 520572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134438&oldid=134437 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+74) 10/* BrainofGolf */
> 1722544367 224128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainofGolf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134439&oldid=134438 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+59) 10
< 1722544897 613128 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A chess variant that my brother had made up and we had together worked to improve some of the rules is this: At the start of the game, each player secretly writes rook, knight, bishop, or pawn.
< 1722544899 338333 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Each player can, once per game, move an opponent's piece of the same kind that you had secretly written, instead of moving one of your own pieces, as though it was the opponent moving it on their turn but you choose where to move it to (and it can capture your own pieces in this way); if you do, then after the move, that piece is now your piece.
< 1722546958 358587 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722547691 920828 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722547931 194073 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann QUIT :Quit: i use arch btw
< 1722548609 733007 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1722548759 320360 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1722549582 202102 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722549622 467143 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann JOIN #esolangs lutherann :lutherann
< 1722549758 979657 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1722550286 99788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134440&oldid=134396 5* 03Ais523 5* (-185) 10Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
> 1722550376 116491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/block14]]4 block10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10blocked [[02User:Unname479810]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeatedly messing with the sandbox instructions, in a way that could confuse new users
< 1722550474 751159 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1722550908 936058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134441&oldid=134362 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+26) 10Added Or++
> 1722550928 842826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134442&oldid=134427 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1887) 10/* the war */ explain
< 1722552306 912124 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.147.234 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722553168 898541 :X-Scale41!~X-Scale@31.22.147.234 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722553349 338500 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.147.234 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722553658 701332 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann QUIT :Quit: i use arch btw
< 1722553913 130233 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann JOIN #esolangs lutherann :lutherann
< 1722554004 236320 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann QUIT :Client Quit
< 1722554025 109522 :lutherann!~lutherann@user/lutherann JOIN #esolangs lutherann :lutherann
> 1722554254 618308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Or++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134443 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+1713) 10Created the page.
> 1722554320 808487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Or14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134444&oldid=120076 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+11) 10Or++, superset of or
> 1722554554 317225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134445&oldid=134441 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+4) 10
> 1722554634 973818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134446 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4944) 10probably made a mistake somewhere... I'll recheck when i format the maths better, later
< 1722555491 339186 :X-Scale41!~X-Scale@31.22.147.234 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds