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< 1722903359 34900 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1722903513 605513 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1722904534 386212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ais523 non-admin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135034&oldid=54324 5* 03Ais523 5* (+89) 10update
> 1722904888 61425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MediaWiki:Abusefilter-maybefalsepositive-warning14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135035&oldid=49596 5* 03Ais523 5* (+29) 10mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
> 1722904944 245546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135036&oldid=35728 5* 03Ais523 5* (-6) 10mention "Introduce yourself" in all the abuse filter warnings that can be fixed like that
< 1722905864 978858 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:1e67:1385:8d34:198f QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1722906690 548404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135037&oldid=134483 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+249) 10/* Better Burn */ new section
> 1722906922 43356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135038&oldid=135037 5* 03Ais523 5* (+235) 10/* Better Burn */ language is mostly unrelated
> 1722907589 857169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135039&oldid=134949 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+221) 10
< 1722907649 911603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1722907723 135133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722909294 142130 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
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< 1722910071 180541 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1722911219 687852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ARMLite14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135040&oldid=134998 5* 03Ducbadatchem 5* (+86) 10
< 1722913248 77751 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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< 1722913807 157292 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1722916608 752998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAWBridge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135041&oldid=118887 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+28) 10Clarified "reflection is fine"
> 1722916813 657808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAWBridge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135042&oldid=135041 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+156) 10Fixed explanation of line continuations' effect on the 2d language
< 1722917051 739195 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. So, I started out today thinking that universality has a bad interaction with encodings. If one gives a UTM, then it's likely very sensitive to the input encoding for the TM under emulation, which could be a problem for any sort of gauge or comparison.
> 1722917100 648348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAWBridge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135043&oldid=135042 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+84) 10Added "@IG/X" comments
< 1722917156 894598 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe it's even worse, in a way that makes it okay. Universality covers an entire class of languages, so giving a UTM is relative to an encoder for the entire class. But usually every number decodes to some class member, so universality kind of works in our favor by letting us ignore which class we used.
< 1722917327 465781 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IOW what we want to gauge is the point (or curve, for multivariable functions like BB) where universality is known to be (im)possible. Doesn't matter which flavor of universality.
> 1722917330 695976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAWBridge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135044&oldid=135043 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+232) 10Added code tags
> 1722917378 735458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAWBridge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135045&oldid=135044 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+0) 10Changed "2d" to "2D"
> 1722917464 906578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135046&oldid=134282 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+78) 10Genewrath summary
> 1722917619 629995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Harmonii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135047&oldid=131433 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+41) 10Clarification edit and adding "instead" where it belongs
< 1722918789 701907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, I think the way universality is defined is "any Turing machine can be encoded into an input for this UTM which causes the UTM to implement the Turing machine", with some restrictions on how much power the encoder is allowed
< 1722918798 44485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(e.g. the encoder isn't allowed to contain a halting oracle, for obvious reasons)
< 1722918855 241781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :exactly how much power you can put in the encoder is disputed and has lead to lots of controversy in the past, although "the encoder is primitive recursive" is considered by most people to be a sufficient condition for the encoder to be acceptable (although not all of them think it's necessary)
< 1722918879 404579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you are just dealing with "is this universal" / "is this non-universal" then the complexity of the encoder and the size of the encoded programs don't really matter
< 1722918890 988530 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. The technicalities were blinding md to the obvious concept that I can't complain about the choice of emulated language *or* encoding; they don't matter for expressive power (WLOG it's TC, duh) and don't matter for undecidability.
< 1722918896 383110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you're dealing with busy-beaver-like programs they suddenly become relevant
< 1722918913 873123 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, *don't matter for undecidability in terms of decidable-vs-universal, like you say.
< 1722918951 16020 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, for Beaver candidates, it matters. For establishing the gauge against which to weigh Beaver candidates, it *doesn't* matter.
< 1722918954 833710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect it's probably also the case that any for UTM, and any TC language, you can write an encoder for that UTM/language pair
< 1722918994 375227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is almost trivial, but the proof breaks down in the situation where the encoder is not capable of producing any sort of literal (e.g. string or numeric literal) that the UTM is able to understand
< 1722919018 343005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that could potentially happen in cases where the UTM is really weird and the encoder has low power
> 1722919020 232598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onione14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135048&oldid=129346 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+162) 10Added DO:TEN to make programming more possible
< 1722919136 253213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(imagine a language which is basically "Ackermann-encoded Unary", i.e. you take a Unary program but perform the Ackermann function on the unary number it represents, and that's your language – then imagine a self-interpreter for that language, it's universal but a primitive recursive encoder can't encode most normal languages into it because it can't generate a string long enough)
< 1722919269 696899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow
< 1722919276 396961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I am thinking about busy-beaver-encoded unary
< 1722919315 64843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to encode a unary program of length n, you must encode it to the nth busy beaver number
< 1722919325 664879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is probably on the wiki already, I vaguely remember reading it, but forget what it's called
< 1722919328 804664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Conversely, doesn't most of what we want come from the fact that a decoder can't reject input at the machine level? It has to do *something* for an input program, and becoming stuck is a something.)
< 1722919384 356992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Language_That_Explodes
< 1722919385 491458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That would be one way to encode a Halting oracle. Very straightforward, TBH.
< 1722919389 152321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not only is it on the wiki already, I invented it
< 1722919511 693061 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and right, TLTE has a trivial halting oracle, and is computable, and can implement any Turing machine
< 1722919525 20239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yet it is entirely useless because the program encoding step involves a halting oracle
< 1722919628 193607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in addition to the philosophical questions with the encoder, there is also a "halt detector" which has similar problems – the program that looks at the execution of the UTM and decides when it's halted
< 1722919640 85312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although at least that one is usually easy to work around by giving the UTM a halt transition
< 1722919684 6178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the (2,3) Turing machine proof I eventually found a way to get it to halt by going off the end of a semi-infinite tape, but I wasn't able to get the encoder down to a level of simplicity that everyone was happy with
< 1722920056 594790 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Both the halt detector and exploding language are "degree zero", at least. Or is it "degree one"? It's the first degree above computability.
< 1722920087 597397 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still grappling with Beeping BB being genuinely another degree up. Like, even an oracle for Halting wouldn't let us compute Beeping.
< 1722920174 56407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think a beeping TM is comparable to a TM with a halting oracle – the difference is that the halting oracle returns by halting the program if the program it's scanning doesn't halt, which might make it less powerful than a TM equipped with a normal halting oracle
< 1722920186 546014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this means that a halting oraclce for normal TMs won't work on a beeping TM
< 1722920271 561439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also that the oracle can't say anything about state transitions in the non-halting case. A non-halting TM could take quite a while to get around to beeping.
< 1722920463 919956 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Wait, that doesn't make any sense. I think I've gotten to the part of the evening where I'm just openly incorrect.
< 1722920476 750985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been hitting that part of the evening way too often recently
< 1722920481 402973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it sort-of makes me scared to say anything at all
< 1722920539 837002 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If only we weren't at the frontier of hard maths. Also, look how many other folks were wrong before us. It's our sacred duty to stand on their shoulders and, as Weird Al put it, dare to be stupid~
< 1722920737 725396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I see maths as being like logic/declarative programming languages: you start with a large pile of "I don't know", and gradually learn more about it and become able to fill in parts that you do know, but avoiding any actual wrong information
< 1722920738 910367 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But TBH I should probably just go to bed. Just as soon as this script works right. Trying to automatically count BF program size is a little tricky because a bit of optimization is required to remove comments and platform-detection idioms.
< 1722920921 474680 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, for sure. I'm wrong a lot, and I've just kind of gotten used to it emotionally, but maybe that's not a good approach to recommend to other folks.
< 1722920973 144808 :dawids!~dawids@109.76.156.255 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1722921092 804620 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dunno. On one wolf, I know that it's important to maintain academic humility and work hard to be open to new information. And on the other wolf, I can't help but notice that the average person is not nearly so rigorous.
< 1722921177 405344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am fairly convinced that I am too perfectionist – but worried that if I try to correct that, I will end up not perfectionist enough by an extent that leaves me worse off overall
< 1722921293 423785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hear that.
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> 1722926896 802776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unary14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135049&oldid=131494 5* 03ThatAH 5* (+15) 10
> 1722927052 816852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Digitial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135050&oldid=135012 5* 03ThatAH 5* (+134) 10
> 1722928016 395308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135051&oldid=135049 5* 03B jonas 5* (+33) 10/* See also */
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< 1722928635 271432 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somehow Unary is reinvented occasionally, there are at least four pages describing very similar languages on the esowiki, always using brainfuck, though Unary is the oldest. I thought there was one that's one or two exponentials above Unary, but I can't find it right now, so I may have been imagining it. I don't think I've seen ackermann or anything growing that fast.
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< 1722930660 922664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been meaning to make a version of Lenguage based on Jelly or some other similar powerful golfing language, to increase the chance that the programs are actually storable
< 1722930693 994984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but never got around to it, partly because I was considering putting it as part of some big overengineered project that never actually happened
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< 1722936127 339160 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1722936202 63206 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"increase the chance that the programs are actually storable" => it would be easier if you don't store the program explicitly but generate it dynamically and pipe it into the interpreter. just make sure to call the magical system call that increases the storage capacity of the pipe if you're on Windows (or old Linux).
< 1722936293 693887 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've sent raw video files through pipes this way, generated by decompressing a compressed video file, so I know this works
> 1722937712 129694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135052&oldid=134708 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+652) 10
> 1722937742 594091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135053&oldid=135052 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (-1) 10/* python code: */
> 1722937951 513833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/BB thoughts14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135054 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+2726) 10thoughts on busy beaver, and encoding by Turing machines (in progress)
> 1722939163 384731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HsifdaeD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135055&oldid=120292 5* 03Ducbadatchem 5* (+765) 10Added Python interpreter
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> 1722943728 322692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135056&oldid=135031 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+132) 10/* Commands */
> 1722943743 979264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135057&oldid=135056 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Commands */
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> 1722943919 597683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135058&oldid=135057 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+27) 10/* Other implementations */
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> 1722944098 692551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BASE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135059&oldid=135058 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+15) 10/* Infinite loop */
> 1722944264 224365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135060&oldid=133900 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-30) 10
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> 1722944760 323346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135061&oldid=134922 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-15) 10/* Deadfish implementation */
> 1722944841 233578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135062&oldid=134997 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-14) 10/* G# */
> 1722944997 304940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135063&oldid=135053 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+176) 10/* python code: */
> 1722945136 109323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135064&oldid=135063 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+0) 10/* Overview */
> 1722945284 199943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheMCoder14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135065 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+64) 10Created page with "I am TheMCoder. === My inventions === [[Sixtyfeetunderassembly]]"
> 1722945354 396173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135066&oldid=135064 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+45) 10
> 1722945390 844998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135067&oldid=135066 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (-26) 10
> 1722945469 807007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sixtyfeetunderassembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135068&oldid=135067 5* 03TheMCoder 5* (+3) 10/* Overview */
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> 1722946748 764566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135069&oldid=135000 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10/* Words */
> 1722947365 706240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135070&oldid=135069 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-30) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1722947405 153066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135071&oldid=135070 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10) 10/* A+B Problem */
> 1722947486 489187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135072&oldid=135071 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Sub-words */
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> 1722952282 177655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135073&oldid=135060 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+133) 10
> 1722952347 488039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135074&oldid=135073 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+61) 10
> 1722952372 814943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/hjhjhj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135075&oldid=135074 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+1) 10
< 1722952566 963596 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1722952798 741714 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron
> 1722953970 733432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Better Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135076&oldid=135026 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+0) 10
> 1722954101 581462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Better Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135077&oldid=135076 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+1) 10
> 1722954501 401908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shorter code Burn14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135078 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+300) 10Created page with "Shorter code Burn is a vriant of [[Burn]]. == Commands == [Wolfram rule number to emulate here] == Examples == Wolfram rule 110: 110 == Computational class == Shorter code Burn is Turing complete, because it can emulate rule 110. [[Category:Languages]] [[Ca
> 1722954529 601131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135079&oldid=134685 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+48) 10
> 1722954541 863423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shorter code Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135080&oldid=135078 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+1) 10fix typo
> 1722954564 311275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shorter code Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135081&oldid=135080 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+1) 10use indentation for monospace font
> 1722954873 998534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shorter code Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135082&oldid=135081 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+7) 10Better Burn can simulate all 256 rules
> 1722955494 435857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135083&oldid=134863 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+66) 10
> 1722955710 734892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135084&oldid=135039 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-104) 10
> 1722956149 757365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/colornames14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135085 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+488) 10Created page with "tommyaweosme unname52 1722956543 4833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmaze14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135086 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+426) 10Created page with "Brainmaze is a maze solver that also executes brainfuck code. It turns right every time it hits a wall. =
is subtract instead of -
Same with: = - > } < { The pointer is v^<> == Ascii loop == |---| |>.+| | | |---| This is the only
> 1722956606 508487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/tabs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135087 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+105) 10Created page with "[[User:Tommyaweosme|user]] - [[User talk:Tommyaweosme|talk]] - [[User:Tommyaweosme/esolist|esolang list]]"
> 1722956619 726300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135088&oldid=135084 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+28) 10
> 1722956630 102320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135089&oldid=135024 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+28) 10
> 1722957378 133232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135090&oldid=135088 5* 03Unname4798 5* (-34) 10revert this page to the revision by [[User:Tommyaweosme|tommy]][[User talk:Tommyaweosme|aweosme]]
> 1722957394 404961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/esolist14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135091 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1396) 10Created page with "# [[directionation]] june 3 # [[driftdown]] june 4 # [[BFshort]] june 4 # [[ulsl]] june 4 # [[slimey]] june 5 # [[cocomelon]] june 5 # [[tc2]] june 5 # [[2025]] june 5 # [[lunchable]] june 6 # [[coolfudge]] june 6 # [[TAbrain]] june 7 # [[coolbean
> 1722957531 862335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135092&oldid=135079 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+61) 10dates
> 1722957545 455832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/esolist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135093&oldid=135091 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+13) 10fixing redlinks
> 1722957555 603492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/esolist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135094&oldid=135093 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+27) 10
< 1722958065 453722 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.232 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1722958240 173817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135095&oldid=130287 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+197) 10v1.1 adds Unicode support and infinite dimensions
> 1722958330 806130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/colornames14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135096&oldid=135085 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+212) 10
> 1722958620 749206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmaze14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135097&oldid=135086 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+121) 10Categories
> 1722958689 75919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135098&oldid=135095 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+14) 10Correct commands in the legacy version (V1.0)
> 1722958789 687334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmaze14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135099&oldid=135097 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+0) 10update ascii loop
> 1722958818 964159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Better Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135100&oldid=135077 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+39) 10See also
< 1722958901 338208 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.232 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1722959003 578397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Unname479814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135101&oldid=135092 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+18) 10number a list
< 1722959584 704241 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Contemplating {{infobox bf variant}}. Kind of hoping that somebody's already done it and it's just not widely used.
> 1722963106 907848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135102&oldid=135072 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+5) 10/* Cat program */
> 1722963271 281518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135103&oldid=135102 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10/* A+B Problem */
> 1722963324 823725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135104&oldid=135103 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1722963826 459208 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.232 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722964189 492133 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1722964323 661117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135105&oldid=135098 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-194) 10v1.1 is not official please dont add it
< 1722964544 129125 :X-Scale44!~X-Scale@31.22.146.152 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1722964681 339047 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.163.232 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1722964733 894362 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1722965333 683876 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1722965629 758032 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1722966868 102351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SPIKE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135106&oldid=134793 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-25) 10/* Commands */
> 1722966892 990283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SPIKE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135107&oldid=135106 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-100) 10/* Commands */
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> 1722969746 374090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02User:Ractangle/Shell10]] to [[LJAPL]]
> 1722969888 196569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LJAPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135110&oldid=135108 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-498) 10
> 1722970110 958468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LJAPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135111&oldid=135110 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+82) 10
> 1722970840 443857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LJAPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135112&oldid=135111 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+171) 10
> 1722970871 970114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135113&oldid=135015 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+12) 10/* Esolangs */
> 1722971200 856317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135114&oldid=134649 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-18) 10/* Deadfish implementation */
> 1722971229 808109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135115&oldid=135062 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-18) 10/* CLFCE */
> 1722971247 220116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135116&oldid=135114 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Deadfish implementation */
> 1722971945 384689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135117&oldid=135116 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-59) 10/* Block-CLFCE */
> 1722972033 660893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135118&oldid=135117 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+48) 10/* Block-CLFCE */
> 1722972062 491526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135119&oldid=135118 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-3) 10/* Block-CLFCE */
> 1722972114 853870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135120&oldid=135119 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10
> 1722972378 262265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135121&oldid=135120 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10
> 1722972393 975866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135122&oldid=135121 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10
> 1722972425 737682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135123&oldid=135122 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10
> 1722972446 203566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CLFCE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135124&oldid=135123 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-22) 10
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> 1722973737 480898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ironlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135125&oldid=127434 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10/* Examples */
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< 1722975734 296475 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname
> 1722975763 705101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135126&oldid=135038 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+226) 10/* Better Burn */
> 1722976171 844980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07My-new-esolang.txt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=135127 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+687) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} ''Please discuss theories about this in the talk page of my-new-esolang.txt'' my-new-esolang.txt is an esolang that was rescued from an old hard drive in August 6, 2024 by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. The hard drive was of his, but unfortunately h
> 1722976183 90501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07My-new-esolang.txt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135128&oldid=135127 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1) 10
> 1722976221 813470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135129&oldid=135090 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+34) 10remember what they did on conwaylife?
> 1722976253 752835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/esolist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135130&oldid=135094 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+52) 10
> 1722976273 413862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07My-new-esolang.txt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135131&oldid=135128 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1) 10grammar
< 1722977965 816446 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can you remember whether Burn was meant to be TC? From looking at it in the past I'd assumed it wasn't obviously TC. It might be TC somehow, but certainly not via that rule 110 tiling.
< 1722977973 48961 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It just struck me that knowing whether it was designed to be TC via a weakly-universal construction would reveal how complex the tiling deformation had to be. Specifically, there would have to be a infinite right tiling of some part, and an infinite left tiling of a different part.
< 1722977986 71621 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Currently I'd assumed from the example there has to be a tiling deformation to do anything interesting, but only simple enough to get a single clean ON cell to run a vanilla rule110 from the most basic start seed. (i.e. Nothing to do with TCness.)
< 1722978111 954147 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722978134 100568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I believe a) the Burn language itself is TC, but b) the example program is not a demonstration of that
< 1722978166 881173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in, that rule 110 interpreter doesn't prove TCness, but it would have been possible to demonstrate TCness using a different program
< 1722978277 722309 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, that confirms the basic assumptions I made. I hadn't given much thought to how it might be TC, just on running a basic r110.
< 1722978345 537477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do vaguely remember that implementing a (more complex) cellular automaton seemed like the best path to make a TCness proof, so i picked the first nontrivial one that came to mind as a proof of concept
< 1722978403 864326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, at this point it's not so much a memory as a reconstruction based on available evidence and what I know of my own personality
< 1722978472 681157 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did notice the recent 'I wonder if there a language like that on the wiki..' comment :) (I relate to that too, coming up with the same idea multiple times)
< 1722978472 839449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1722978492 903763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722978586 373533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I noticed your BB page. Cool idea! Looking forward to more. A couple authors have built similar inequalities, and I think eventually we'll want to play Snakes & Ladders with them in some sort of automatic solver.
< 1722978611 720321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think salpynx's BB page is basically a proof of "busy beavers are incompressible", which makes sense when you think about it but which I hadn't noticed before
< 1722978746 246452 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks for checking it makes some kind of sense, it was me condensing my thoughts on null programs I started in the channel. I didn't mention null programs once on that page, but it's the same idea.
< 1722978754 298013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, by a counting argument, it only excludes about half the machines even if you have a theoretically perfect decompression algorithm built into the interpreter – the number of possible compressed representations is less than half the number of possible programs, so the other half have to be incompressible
< 1722978799 98211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, it "intuitively" excludes just about every program constructed by hand – those tend to follow patterns that make compressing them easier
< 1722978875 360350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on Code Golf Stack Exchange, there was a competition where programs in the competition took it in turns to delete bytes from each other, and the winner was the last to crash – so writing a program was a combination of tolerance to byte deletions, and trying to work out where the meaningful code in the opponents' program was (i.e. the code that was critical and deleting it would break it)
< 1722978876 329732 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is there an existing proof that bb numbers must be strictly increasing?
< 1722978914 855542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I won that by implementing a compression algorithm, and deleting whatever character produced the most compressible result – it was very good at finding the meaningful cod
< 1722978943 390558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: for Turing machines, yes, because you can have unused states – in the general case I believe the answer is no (e.g. take Lenguage as a stupid special case of that)
< 1722978947 248606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I can think of a couple handwaves that they must increase in both n and k, but I don't know if there's a rigorous proof in the literature.
< 1722979011 162446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's as ais523 said for states. For symbols, I think that you have to show that a symbol could be unused, which might require remapping some states with an NP-hard recoloring problem.
< 1722979047 522812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :symbols are more difficult unless you have a "stay in place" transition in which case it's trivial
< 1722979145 9985 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another way of showing BBs champs are incompressible is via Kolmogorov-Chaitin; suppose not, then any compressor would squeeze bits of Chaitin's omega from any such champ.
< 1722979204 685114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1722979217 142945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1722979251 488976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can almost prove it for symbols by saying "run the same way until you would halt, then replace the halt transition with a write of the new symbol, then have all the transition rules for the new symbol halt"
< 1722979269 825491 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think that the inelegance of the BB champs found so far is suggestive of this. Encoding 3x+1 is straightforward; picking a small starting point that makes 3x+1 go for a long time is tricky. It's Kolmogorov-unlikely that a BB champ based on this would have an elegant starting point.
< 1722979285 204409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that isn't quite correct because it isn't 100% obvious that there's a transition you can replace the halt transition with which will ever get back to the same cell on the tape, even though you have a free choice of states to enter and directions to move the tape head in
< 1722979338 396982 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a feeling I was probably saying something that had already been said before about compressibility. With maths, it's probably better to aim to say things that are true, over things that are interesting.
< 1722979367 100834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, you can conjecture things that are interesting, as long as you don't claim that they're true without proof
< 1722979453 969664 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.23.120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's fair
< 1722979458 607688 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Here's an idea. What if we replace the 1RB convention with 2RB? Like, you have to write the extra symbol on your first move. And maybe all you do after that is move back and swap it back to 1 like intended, which I think you can always smuggle into the state space by reusing the new symbol later by *swapping* 1 and 2.
< 1722979492 623702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That only gives a constant number of steps, and doesn't affect BB shift at all, but it'd be enough for now.
< 1722979494 612538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I was considering that but couldn't make it work
< 1722979518 525050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that 1RB isn't just the first transition of the program – it's the transition for state A and symbol 0
< 1722979536 973041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that can come up at other times later in the program too, when moving sideways might break the semantics
< 1722979752 447021 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, yeah. I guess I have two thoughts. One has tape like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]1 -> 00[1]. States are A, B, A, B.
< 1722979799 564249 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And another is like 0[0]0 -> 02[0] -> 0[2]0, states A, B, A, but after that, 1 and 2 are swapped.
< 1722979860 608468 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! I see. Yeah, okay. Later in the program. Sorry, I get it now.
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> 1722985920 471980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AnnoyStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135132&oldid=127197 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+215) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the AnnoyStack programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
> 1722986045 366902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AnnoyStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=135133&oldid=135132 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+151) 10Added an example which prints the ASCII characters in ascending order of their codes.