< 1724113530 858225 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1724114147 156945 :impomatic99!~impomatic@host51-14-185-155.range51-14.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1724114286 466209 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot JOIN #esolangs Noisytoot :Ron > 1724114896 390601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:E14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136200 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+4) 10Created page with "RUSH" < 1724116691 862393 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:f038:d3f6:f2f8:a93 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement > 1724118274 845279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NameError without a quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136201 5* 03None1 5* (+166) 10Created page with "NameError itself doesn't have a nonempty quine since output is always longer than input. --~~~~" > 1724119329 978817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136202&oldid=136131 5* 03None1 5* (+136) 10 > 1724119343 443187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136203&oldid=136202 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10 > 1724119987 666304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136204 5* 03None1 5* (+657) 10Created page with "==Brainfuck programs no longer public domain== Several months ago, a note was inserted in the "My brainfuck programs" section in his [[https://brainfuck.org/ brainfuck.org]] website: (Note: I'm licensing all of these under a Creative Commons Attribution-S > 1724120006 417533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136205&oldid=136204 5* 03None1 5* (-2) 10 > 1724120023 650147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136206&oldid=136205 5* 03None1 5* (+13) 10 > 1724121526 917365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dbfi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136207&oldid=120343 5* 03None1 5* (-293) 10 > 1724121596 597356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dbfi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136208&oldid=136207 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10Dbfi is no longer public domain > 1724121616 602206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dbfi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136209&oldid=136208 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10 > 1724121762 657788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Copyrighted14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136210 5* 03None1 5* (+149) 10Created page with "''As {{{1}}} is now licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License, we are unable to offer the source code of it.''" > 1724121817 212335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Copyrighted14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136211&oldid=136210 5* 03None1 5* (+152) 10 > 1724121842 254335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dbfi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136212&oldid=136209 5* 03None1 5* (-128) 10 > 1724121861 663602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Copyrighted14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136213&oldid=136211 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10 > 1724122240 183185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Main Page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136214&oldid=135173 5* 03None1 5* (-78) 10We don't need to go to the main page if we're already in the main page < 1724123884 466521 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1724123887 467489 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1724123969 542031 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1724125842 622650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NameError without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136215&oldid=136201 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+259) 10 < 1724131804 102375 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1724133460 677128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NameError without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136216&oldid=136215 5* 03None1 5* (+528) 10 > 1724133473 409932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NameError without a quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136217&oldid=136216 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10 > 1724137838 667690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Borth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136218&oldid=136193 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+136) 10/* Examples */ > 1724137922 691398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Borth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136219&oldid=136218 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+113) 10/* Commands */ > 1724138613 27142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Borth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136220&oldid=136219 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+200) 10/* Logic Gates */ > 1724138803 158430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Borth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136221&oldid=136220 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+74) 10/* Logic Gates */ > 1724139640 737724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Borth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136222&oldid=136221 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-410) 10/* Logic Gates */ > 1724139732 732537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136223&oldid=136190 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+12) 10/* Esolangs */ > 1724140060 951199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136224&oldid=136166 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+102) 10 > 1724140080 468954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[0210]] to [[I have no absolute idea what do i name this esolang so uhhhh]] > 1724140097 116247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I have no absolute idea what do i name this esolang so uhhhh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136227&oldid=136225 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10 < 1724144073 964737 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So there's this thing that I find greatly annoying for some reason, which is that sometimes people design esolangs that have built-in integer arithmetic, but only a compare equal or compare to zero instruction, no way to less-than compare numbers or check the sign of a number. (This is fine when brainfuck does it since it doesn't have add or subtract operations anyway, only increment and decrement.) < 1724144079 948057 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikiplia is one example – the way to find the sign of a number in it is to take the first character with the substring operation (it implicitly converts numbers to strings using %d format kind of like perl) and check if it's a minus sign. < 1724144133 709172 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But recently I found out something I missed earlier about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer . It has just a branch if zero instruction, but it gets away with it because the add and subtract instructions are unsigned saturated. I find this very unique. Does any other language or computer, esoteric or not, do that? < 1724146110 854017 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1724148326 885832 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724148744 854229 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1724149468 836798 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1724150040 459043 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin < 1724150473 879472 :dawids!~dawids@64.43.10.19 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1724153818 866969 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724154091 182012 :dawids!~dawids@64.43.10.19 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1724156277 922979 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:903b:90a1:95c2:e904 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1724156345 188662 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User < 1724157128 854360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1724157217 425715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136228&oldid=136206 5* 03Ais523 5* (+253) 10if we took a copy of it while it was public domain, the copy is till public domain < 1724157366 722239 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1724157728 989009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Daniel B. Cristofani14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136229&oldid=136228 5* 03Ais523 5* (+269) 10although was it ever public domain in the first place? < 1724157891 478557 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : But recently I found out something I missed earlier about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Krakauer%27s_decimal_computer . It has just a branch if zero instruction, but it gets away with it because the add and subtract instructions are unsigned saturated. I find this very unique. Does any other language or computer, esoteric or not, do that? ← yes, I've seen it at least twice, but am having trouble remembering where < 1724157996 81682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :NQL has saturating subtraction, but it also has normal < and > operations < 1724157996 834193 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724158007 828738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that's one of the instances I was thinking of, in which case I've possibly only seen it once < 1724158597 171110 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. The Cristofani situation seems a little curious. It's clear that dbfi can't both be CC-BY-SA *and* also an academic artifact meant to be included in a paper, and he's got a pre-preprint: http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/08.html < 1724158698 194871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is certainly possible for parts of a paper to be multi-licensed under CC-by-sa and the journal's licensee < 1724158701 544245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* journal's license < 1724158713 644027 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think off-wiki work should care much, because they're going to be using the educational/academic free-use carveout anyway: intentionally disregarding the license for purposes of teaching. < 1724158775 585323 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's possible, but that's not gonna stop folks from copying code out of whitepapers. It's also very rude, in the sense that folks typically feel entitled to do such copying; why would you include example code in a paper and *not* let people use it? < 1724158866 184753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wiki quite possibly *does* hit the educational carveout, which would lead to some interesting consequences for licensing < 1724158936 438593 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :CC-BY-SA does allow you to take code with attribution... it feels quite in line with how academia generally works < 1724159086 228480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, as long as you don't incorporate it into anything that isn't also CC-by-sa (or GPL, IIRC) < 1724159157 679882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm mostly answering the "why would you" question. < 1724159182 440079 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still trying to figure out an eloquent way to say that the idea that you can freely copy stuff from whitepapers is fallacious. < 1724159274 413114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can freely copy *anything* from a whitepaper. What you can't do is claim that you wrote it, or republish it in an academic context without attribution. < 1724159290 52751 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, if there were a general rule that all of that content were public domain, it might discourage people from posting it in the first place < 1724159321 188166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a difference between "anyone can look at / learn from this" and "anyone can incorporate this into their own products" < 1724159364 840192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://web.archive.org/web/20210128093207/https://brainfuck.org/ mentions no license at all which would qualify as all rights reserved < 1724159378 383068 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, *products* are completely different. As soon as money's involved, everybody should be compensated for licenses. < 1724159392 239252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: No, you can't. It's copyrighted material; publishing it doesn't make it not copyrighted. < 1724159404 266975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Legally speaking. < 1724159436 288128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Oh, *products* are completely different. As soon as money's involved, everybody should be compensated for licenses. ← well the point is that as soon as it becomes pubilc domain, people could do that – so if that restriction exists, it isn't public domain < 1724159446 859444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The whole point of copyright is that you can publish something and still benefit from legal protections. < 1724159457 54771 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't respect copyrights of academic publishers; in general, I don't respect any copyright transferred via working-for-hire. I see your point. < 1724159471 671133 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1724159472 939224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: That's your choice and personal risk. < 1724159558 163500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://web.archive.org/web/20210128093207/https://brainfuck.org/ mentions no license at all, so the CC-BY-SA is a relaxation. So that would support the idea that code may have been copied illegally in the past. < 1724159590 641677 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, as far as what the wiki should do, sure. I'm talking more generally. < 1724159649 429871 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I assume you would be horrified to learn that the typical artist *cannot* be trained without infringing copyright, and the typical art school has a thriving underground art-piracy scene. < 1724159682 234342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm aware of "Melancholy Elephants" < 1724159709 563196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do have issues with the ever increasing copyright term length. < 1724159740 167191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it actually stopped increasing semi-recently < 1724159763 503564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that a shorter term copyright would strike a good balance between moral rights and the ability to commercially exploit your work as an author or artist. < 1724159764 620811 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, I mean today. Like, every jazz instructor I ever worked with would hand me a burnt CD containing original versions of music, and I would have to learn the parts by ear. I was instructed to infringe. < 1724159787 935405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think the best balance would be achieved with substantially smaller copyright terms < 1724159813 477068 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Risk tradeoffs were made. When I was in a pit for "Fiddler on the Roof", we were strictly instructed to not play *any* music during the preshow, in case there was a lawyer in the audience. < 1724159816 926651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :10 years, for example, would easily be enough for most media in today's world – if you've made something of value, people aren't going to wait 10 years for it to go out of copyright < 1724159955 322342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Copyright today could be 48hrs. Somebody like Ariana Grande could perform a concert by tweeting the first part of a key exchange, requiring every concert-goer to pay and register their own key. At the designated time, Grande's key unlocks and the concert is available; everybody who paid gets a 2hr head start. All the money is made up front, so there's no point in preventing copying. < 1724159982 854756 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :7yrs seems like a decent first compromise while we wait for the media industry to stop being bad at computers. < 1724160049 63047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if we accept that idea for live performances... what about other forms of media that don't have live performances? Video games? Books? Paintings? < 1724160104 719453 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Paintings can't be mechanically copied. Books and video games can also be encrypted in a time-locked box. This might be the start of a dilemma, since anything which can be digitized can be encrypted. < 1724160130 967800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :video games need a few years, I think – probably more than 1, but a small number < 1724160169 775881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although currently video games are often stored partially on the company's servers and stop working when the servers are shut down < 1724160179 530011 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least in the USA, there's a concept known as "doctrine of first sale" or "right of first sale" or etc. It means that a copyright holder is only entitled to payment, licensing, etc. on the *first* sale, the sale from the artist to the patron. < 1724160190 813391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like the 10 year number. < 1724160210 421290 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if the holder wants to make money, they need to do so via first sales only. < 1724160239 785103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah paintings are a flawed example < 1724160243 917066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: which they work around by never actually selling anything, they just rent it to you < 1724160266 518827 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Paintings and scultures are excellent examples! It's worth thinking about how we usually only fund them through patronage. < 1724160333 160331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of them are works for hire, aren't they? < 1724160348 968867 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Which isn't free for them. If they are offering leases, then they're obligated to e.g. replace physical media which has become damaged through regular use. < 1724160406 818954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: they just put terms in the lease saying they won't do that < 1724160423 615585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in fact, couldn't they theoretically charge the customer for damaging the leased item?) < 1724160455 341674 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: It's a bad example because the subject is works that can easily be copied without loss of quality. < 1724160572 990880 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: But it's still art and still must be considered if we want to destroy copyright. < 1724160631 817824 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well I don't want to do that. < 1724160634 98692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: They can also put terms in contracts saying that they can shoot your dog~ Just because the typical record label isn't operated like Rent-a-Center doesn't mean that they don't have those legal obligations; it merely means that they've paid off lots of legislators. < 1724160681 450668 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why not destroy copyright? It only benefits large publishers and it's one of the worst parts of being an artist. < 1724160728 120476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a news story today where someone died of an allergic reaction in Disneyworld, and Disney argued that her husband couldn't sue them over it because he had had a Disney+ account several years ago and the terms and conditions prevented that < 1724160754 177304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...last week... < 1724160759 961419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately the argument didn't get tested in court, because the public backlash got them to change their mind < 1724160773 586467 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As if an arbitrator is going to be nicer to Disney. What a bizarre self-own. < 1724160776 281849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's news < 1724160779 849004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to me) < 1724160794 232042 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(their argument that they didn't own the restaurant is probably more reasonable) < 1724160813 812244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it really is < 1724160934 851854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it does benefit small publishers too, e.g. someone who develops a computer game on their own couldn't easily sell it in the absence of copyright < 1724160937 835338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This may not have been news at all if they hadn't make that frivolous attempt at forcing the case through arbitration. < 1724160949 505068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hadn't *made* < 1724160977 990625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are alternative possible models (e.g. the bounty model, which I like in theory but fear might be unworkable in practice), but they have issues of their own < 1724160979 32879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You are so very close to the realization that it doesn't make economic sense to sell software. < 1724161012 309295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you would not get enough people making it to supply enough software to the world if they couldn't get money off it < 1724161069 894983 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No, software is one of those things where a relatively small group of authors *can* supply the world. Economically, we say that the marginal cost of copying software goes to zero in the limit. < 1724161093 312777 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...that would be a very sad world < 1724161099 696209 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not to be confused with goods like LSD, which has non-zero marginal cost but could also meet the world's demand with the supply from a single chemist. < 1724161132 648805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yes, this Microsoft-dominated world is sad. < 1724161145 598142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you're looking only at the least essential software < 1724161152 826227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like Windows are easily replaced by free alternatives < 1724161153 353166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fact that we have an abundance of different games to choose from is great. < 1724161178 545935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there is a lot of more specialised software in existence, that doesn't get as many people trying to write free replacements < 1724161187 470234 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm looking at *economics*. The economic problem only exists for things that are scarce, that take human labor to produce, *and* that have non-zero marginal cost despite economics of scale. < 1724161209 615370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I am arguing that the majority of software is such a thing, because it is only useful for a relatively small fraction of people < 1724161245 233882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or heck, take the mega monopolist that is Apple. They have an App store. It's deeply flawed and exploitative but it does pay thousands of independent developers. It's a pretty fair guess that that wouldn't work nearly as well the same way without copyright. < 1724161265 21343 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think you're arguing something else: that people ought to be *compensated* for their labor. And this path leads to UBI, since there's no economic way to get there. < 1724161292 26844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It must be great to have firm convictions. < 1724161292 838192 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yes, without copyright, Apple would be moribund. Indeed, *all* fashion companies would collapse somewhat. < 1724161353 872566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm arguing the converse of that – that people wouldn't do the labour if they weren't compensated < 1724161382 30719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in general, there are exceptions but they aren't enough to power the world) < 1724161382 677988 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really like the whole "it's exploitative but it does pay thousands of artists" argument. Jobs' other investment, Pixar, does the same thing as traditional animation studios; the fact that it's digital has not made working conditions better compared to e.g. Disney. < 1724161395 556574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that if you make it impossible to compensate them, then people won't have any way to obtain the product that they would normally buy < 1724161457 192783 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure, bread before virtue. But we can't do it with old Biblical hate like "those who don't work, don't eat;" we need to ensure a universal baseline of quality living first. < 1724161492 482394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :universal basic income clearly has a lot of benefits, but I suspect most countries can't afford it < 1724161526 162151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the goods that are purchased with the income have to come from somewhere < 1724161559 752822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be a very positive thing to try to work out how to get the world into a state where a universal basic income is possible < 1724161576 983026 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Every country can afford *some* UBI just as a matter of tax policy, except places like Somaliland which don't even have taxes. We have something like 3x the labor actually required to produce our needs. < 1724161595 682828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you also need to work out what you're doing in the meantime < 1724161611 4190 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The USA could instantiate a 1600/mo UBI at any time. The piles of cash are already there. A 2000/mo UBI is workable if tax policy is included. < 1724161621 858602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: take the UK as an example – it uses quite a bit of its taxes for social policies like caring for the elderly and paying for universal health care for everyone < 1724161644 511373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a form of basic income, in a way, because these are things that people would otherwise have to pay for themselves < 1724161696 936282 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Universal health care is roughly 5x cheaper than the HMO/ACO route. Also, no, it's not basic income, because it doesn't put cash into pockets. < 1724161749 982540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it stops an effect that would otherwise remove cash from pockets (and/or kill people who didn't have it) < 1724161754 743802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :economically, that's income < 1724161796 443343 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The UK's health plan includes letting some folks freeze to death on a seasonal basis. I would look at it skeptically rather than letting memes explain it. < 1724161827 598423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And no, reduced costs aren't income. That's the same mistake that the record labels make when they claim that piracy hurts their sales. < 1724161971 973086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Every country can afford *some* UBI just as a matter of tax policy ← actually this is just mathematically false, thinking about it – you can't possibly give everyone more money than they are paying in taxes, so some people have to get less, those people are not getting basic income in a meaningful sense < 1724161980 246190 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I would recommend sitting down and planning a commune. Give it 1000 people, unlimited space, and an open system of trade. How much labor participation is really necessary? < 1724161992 815629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :more than you expect < 1724161994 52367 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find it's about 85% participation, at about 15 hrs/wk of labor. < 1724162036 101760 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh noes, the Zuckerdude doesn't get to benefit from UBI! But I don't care about him, I care about the 60% of the country that is food-insecure. < 1724162038 402792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the unlimited space would help a lot – that's one thing the world is very short of at the moment < 1724162055 623844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: under your assumptions his income would drop a lot and provide less tax income < 1724162087 598355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, didn't he make most of his money from software in the first place? < 1724162094 133808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No, UBI doesn't stop Facebook from contributing to genocide or however they make money. < 1724162114 283075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: but removing software copyright might < 1724162131 302642 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :admittedly, at this point it is all mostly network effects < 1724162136 808777 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Under ideal reforms, we would remove not only Zuck's copyright but his head as well. < 1724162172 743121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :calling for the death of people (especially specific people) is beyond a line, I can't condone that behaviour on this channel < 1724162174 933443 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sorry, I'm still digesting the idea that "the world is very short of" livable space. There's so much space!) < 1724162199 149277 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, no worries. I hope that you read the backscroll and think about the ethics of your beliefs. Peace. < 1724162200 540182 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PART :#esolangs < 1724163683 548122 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :WTF was that... I guess I wasn't (and am not) prepared to consider a complete rework of society... I think incremental changes are far more realistic. < 1724163728 730968 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's OK to have an idealistic end goal that would be a genuine improvement, and try to work out ways to reach it – but getting there incrementally is going to be the only viable way to do that, if indeed there's any viable route < 1724164739 581372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1724165777 276615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Arandomidoitontheinternet 5* 10New user account > 1724165837 4651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lalala14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136230&oldid=136000 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+25) 10 > 1724165969 446205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136231&oldid=136074 5* 03Arandomidoitontheinternet 5* (+224) 10 < 1724166011 336842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Back from an errand. korvo's parting line was also super condescending. -1/5 stars. > 1724166013 64019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Arandomidoitontheinternet14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136232 5* 03Arandomidoitontheinternet 5* (+31) 10Created page with "exactly what it says on the tin" > 1724166112 962456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lalala14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136233&oldid=136230 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+109) 10 > 1724166298 600659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pikobrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136234&oldid=100890 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-32) 10 > 1724166781 345427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136235&oldid=132956 5* 03Arandomidoitontheinternet 5* (+217) 10Started on FizzBuzz < 1724168593 17266 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724169265 991923 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1724170139 647209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Richard56514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136236 5* 03Richard565 5* (+212) 10Creation < 1724170454 87675 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname > 1724170937 876141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NQL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=136237 5* 03B jonas 5* (+31) 10Redirected page to [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] < 1724171756 758754 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to register that I do not think the copyright protection term being long is a problem, and I would not like it to be shorter, except possibly in as much that it's harmonized across countries so you don't get tripped up by it being five years longer if the work was first published in Italy or that sort of trap < 1724171829 382340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :100+ years? < 1724171836 538062 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the people who argue for shorter copyright term usually bring up arguments that either don't understand how copyright works or don't understand how business works. < 1724171864 22149 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know it's more nuanced but Steamboat Willy lasted for over 100 years, and is now in a very unclear state because it *does* differ by jurisdiction.) < 1724171894 278961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay what exactly goes wrong with a 10 year copyright term? < 1724171984 780848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also this is obviously simplified; different terms may be useful for different categories of products. Books may need longer terms to account for long-running series. Maybe.) < 1724172068 30805 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a concept known as ‘doctrine of first sale’" => you noticed that "copyright" has "copy" in its name? that means if you buy a book then scan it and distribute the scan to everyone on the internet, or pirated copies of a video game on the internet after you bought it once, etc, you can't try to hide behind the "doctrine of first sale". those kinds of activities, specifically restricted by the < 1724172074 37665 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :copyright law, are what people usually want to do when they try to give arguments like this. < 1724172133 705051 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"couldn't they theoretically charge the customer for damaging the leased item" => yes, a library will certainly do that when I borrow a CD, at least if the damage is deliberate or careless rather than normal wear < 1724172418 191497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I tried to disengage at that point but yeah, while it's degenerate when it comes to paintings (unless you make prints of that of course), indeed you do not get the right to copy the work; you are allowed to resell your own physical copy (e.g. of a book to take the most standard example) < 1724172461 479309 :fowl!~fowl@user/fowl PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do I have to learn to understand things like this https://arxiv.org/pdf/1011.0014 < 1724172478 597292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( first, learn to link to /abs/ instead ) < 1724172494 154481 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"what exactly goes wrong with a 10 year copyright term?" => there would be much fewer film adaptations of books, and fewer *good* books and videogames, unlike the bestseller books that people buy for signaling and never read, good books are still valuable ten years later < 1724172548 852509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fowl: you linked that earlier but tbh the abstract sounds like nonsense to me and I'd just ignore that paper < 1724172592 482514 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION agrees with b_jonas
< 1724172604 405500 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it was korvo who linked the paper: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2024-08-19.html#lLb < 1724172652 106159 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the abstract dies at the very first sentence, and the body of the article doesn't look less fishy. < 1724172750 468083 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: NQL => thank you. I also have the feeling that I've seen the saturating subtraction in some high-level language once, but don't know where, and I'd still be interested in examples < 1724172871 176899 :fowl!~fowl@user/fowl PRIVMSG #esolangs :all I want is to write an artificial life simulation I can watch like a loving god. never intervening, the eternal voyeur < 1724172878 171256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"we make primitive recursive functions impenetrable by casting it in the language of category theory" - page 8/9 < 1724172897 698300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(paraphrased) < 1724173166 491408 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other problem that I have with the people who call for shorter copyright term is, if you think that creative works are worthless after ten or twnety years after publication then why do you find it important what the copyright terms for them are? if they really are worthless then you shouldn't care. < 1724173205 906416 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the argument is dishonest, they *know* that the works are valuable, they just selfishly argue that they should be able to get them for free. if that's not your motivation then you should somehow explain why the shorter term would be better. < 1724173277 834192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder, have you read Melancholy Elephants? It's a short story about indefinite copyright terms. < 1724173327 450383 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "only benefits the greedy heirs of the artist" makes no economic sense: if I build a good house that people will still be able to live in 70 years from now, then I can sell it for value that accounts for that use 70 years later and spend that money now, I don't need to benefit some mysterious future heirs. publishers generally pay advances to creators before they sell even a single book or movie < 1724173333 466814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ticket, because creative works work just the same. < 1724173361 979875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's less about using works verbatim and more about the ability to remix. The slogan is "All art is derivative." < 1724173369 887525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your heirs get money by selling film rights to your books, that just means you were not smart enough and didn't sell those rights in advance to a publisher. < 1724173467 245762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also there's tons of material that simply disappears because it's not commerically exploited. Which is a cultural loss. Abandonware is a keyword there I think. < 1724173587 715850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the way, have I mentioned this esoterical copyright thing yet? suppose there's a photo distributed under the CC-BY license, so I can distribute it freely but only with attribution. in theory, you could paint a mural of that photo onto your house wall, with attribution painted under it, and if it's permanent and in a country with freedom of panorama, then you can later photograph that wall with the < 1724173593 722457 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :attribution cropped out and distribute the same photo without attribution. this is expensive because it only works for permanently exhibited works, and weather-proofing a painting to be permanent (or regularly redoing it as the quality deterioriates) costs a lot of money, and the wall space costs money that you can't sell for advertisers too, but I think it's possible in theory. > 1724173602 639663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TFMG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136238&oldid=135558 5* 03KSPAtlas 5* (+44) 10Added cat program < 1724173648 374527 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"disappears because it's not commerically exploited." => yes, but most of those disappears because it was only published in pre-digital journals or books. anything published today has a digital form that is much easier to copy and so less likely to disappear. < 1724173701 476981 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the old journals have to be guarded for decades in libraries, and that costs money and also a bit of luck (because of wars or natural catastrophes) < 1724173714 406362 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fowl: That paper really doesn't really do anything substantial. It's just using unnecessarily complicated language; I feel it strives to obfuscate rather than further the understanding of algorithms and their equivalence (which it claims as its goal). < 1724173765 634818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am prejudiced; I have this feeling about 90% of uses of category theory in computer science. < 1724173856 873038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm making an exception for data and codata as initial and final objects in categories of algebras and coalgebras, respectively.) < 1724173922 482475 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And I don't know about HoTT; it's too hard for me but it seems to get some actual utility from categorial language.) < 1724173937 602210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or categorical < 1724174155 122554 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724174509 117661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One detailled objection I have to that paper... when you think about equivalence of algorithms, you probably have a relation, maybe expressed as a many-to-one map. It's almost never a bijective map which is what you'd need for the automorphisms that Galois theory talks about at this abstract level.) < 1724174546 484025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And I'm sure that there are better objections.) < 1724174579 444138 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1724174884 148174 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1724175028 1813 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : the other problem that I have with the people who call for shorter copyright term is, if you think that creative works are worthless after ten or twnety years after publication then why do you find it important what the copyright terms for them are? if they really are worthless then you shouldn't care. ← I think there is some amount of value to the creators for them being copyright, and some amount of value to the public for being out of < 1724175029 434698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :copyright – and as time goes on the former becomes smaller relative to the latter < 1724175059 378188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can get a boost of value to the public without harming the copyright owners much (in particular, without harming them sufficiently that they wouldn't make the work in the first place) < 1724175269 236720 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly, but 10 years is ridiculously short in any case > 1724175429 557224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136239&oldid=135341 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+86) 10/* Befunge-93 */ < 1724178620 43941 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:903b:90a1:95c2:e904 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1724178637 610367 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:903b:90a1:95c2:e904 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1724178642 817336 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1724178811 435553 :Everything!~Everythin@109.162.122.37 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything < 1724179415 327529 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:9546:3dbc:8122:1eef JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1724180543 518215 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:9546:3dbc:8122:1eef QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1724181082 611241 :Everything!~Everythin@109.162.122.37 QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1724182383 809769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02I have no absolute idea what do i name this esolang so uhhhh10]] to [[Kava]] > 1724182449 684710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136242&oldid=136240 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-69) 10 > 1724183844 24139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136243&oldid=136242 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+165) 10 < 1724185021 76138 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724185616 595691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1724185690 825693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1724185844 874288 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1724186688 307396 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1724187313 856891 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what does it mean for a wall painting to be permanent? < 1724187331 111219 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can always paint over it or destroy the wall so it can't actually be permanent < 1724187918 844178 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Noisytoot: it's not permanent alone that matters, but that's it's exhibited permanently in a public place, the intention matters < 1724188048 115763 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so these abstract sculputures by Bernar Venet for example, https://commons.wikimedia.org/?curid=44351848 you can't actually publish photographs of without the permission of the sculptor, because they're a traveling exhibition moved to new places like twice a year, and were only in this location for half a year < 1724188092 994294 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but most outdoor sculptures and buildings are there permanently and so I am allowed to publish photos of them without permission from the copyright holder of the sculpture or architect < 1724188131 484212 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this depends on the country of course, this is for Hungary < 1724188149 934089 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :permanent doesn't have to mean forever in this context < 1724188243 814833 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1724188494 815891 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course if you want to know for sure you'll have to ask a lawyer, don't trust me < 1724188557 465555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1724189246 936375 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember they were very picky about photographing the Atomium in Brussels. < 1724189272 595224 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm https://atomium.be/copyright "Since 15 July 2016 there has also been a Freedom of Panorama" I guess it has changed a little over there. < 1724189462 212786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1724189466 119308 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was there in 2010.) < 1724189535 140586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1724191138 392972 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1724192869 971568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Huit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=136244&oldid=136120 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+92) 10Added precaution