2024-08-01: 00:00:17 -!- X-Scale has joined. 00:08:33 -!- __monty__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:08:48 ``` if date +%Y-%m | grep -x 2024-08; then learn 'The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870'; else echo 'not yet'; fi 00:08:52 2024-08 \ Relearned 'password': The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870 00:29:58 I didn't know BB in detail, and have just been catching up. I was going to ask here if there is a TL;DR (non-Coq) explanation of the recent proof. The answer is: "We aim to have this paper published in the next two years both on arxiv and in recognised computer science venues." 00:37:08 my understanding of the proof is that the entire problem space of 5 state Turing machines was divided into classes of 1 or more machines, and each class was proven by whatever method was required (some considerably harder than others). 00:50:50 Now that all problems that can be represented by 5 state 2 symbol Turing machines are now decided, is there still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting? 00:55:09 Almost by definition, none of them can tell us anything about other maths problems. Indeed, one way of looking at it is that we are out of easy BB numbers. 00:57:34 i was just thinking there is probably a TC language interpreter in 5 state 2 symbol machines (because BB is for a 0 tape), is there a known say cyclic tag interpreter in there? 01:02:17 ... just thinking through knowing how all programs behave on 0 input doesn't really tell us much about how they would behave on non-zero input. 01:03:19 Oh, perhaps. I suppose that those programs would still be interesting beyond "not halting". 01:04:02 Or, like you say, perhaps it's a matter of inputs. BB only cares about inputs in terms of how many states are required to prepare them. 01:10:01 asking how many of those machines are interpreters for Turning complete languages (where the source is written on the init tape) seems like a valid question. Expecting an answer greater than 1 doesn't see too far fetched? 01:10:41 it wouldn't prove anything to find one, but it's slightly interesting 01:11:30 it'd be a fun way to 'discover' an esolang 01:12:36 Perhaps I am overestimating how much can be done with 5 states? 01:17:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:18:27 salpynx: there's a rule 110 interpreter but I think it's 5 symbol 2 state rather than 5 state 2 symbol, not 100% sure though 01:19:13 (although it needs to start with a tape that has periodic sections at both ends) 01:19:47 finitely initialized tapes are perhaps more interesting 01:21:20 I remember seeing an article with TCness records for periodically initialized tapes, but forget where it is 01:21:33 IIRC it had a 3 state 3 symbol UTM, though 01:28:42 interesting, I had thought I'd heard of low n-state m-symbol machines too. That article sounds interesting. I imagined this sort of thing would have been explored already 01:40:03 found it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397508007287 (there's a "view PDF" link at the top) 01:40:19 although it's quite old by now 01:41:57 fwiw, I constructed a 2-state 14-symbol strongly universal (i.e. finitely initialized, with an explicit halt state) Turing machine: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag 01:44:53 my link above might be relevant for korvo, too (although it might also be too old) 01:45:41 I appreciate it. 01:46:13 I thought the "cited by" might be a good way to find new TCness results, but unfortunately it seems to be broken 01:46:33 I should probably have a table of UTMs in the BB gauge, simply because I'd like to know the Pareto frontier over symbols and states. 01:46:48 Er, that is, how adding +1 symbol changes the number of needed states, and vice versa. 01:48:09 * ais523 bookmarks the page so that it doens't take 20 minutes to find next time 01:48:10 i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents without analyzing the specific machine 01:50:05 There do exist compilers that re-encode machines, and those compilers usually have a fixed number of output symbols/states. Other than that, not really. 01:53:59 fig 1 in that paper is exactly what I was wondering about, nice! There's a gap at 5 state 2 symbol, and finding one would be a discovery for 2 symbol machines. 01:55:26 oh, I see that there's a "universal" line, below which things are "weakly universal", which seems to refer to the R110 construction? 02:02:43 [[Remove Line Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134363&oldid=114783 * PrySigneToFry * (+1063) 02:16:10 [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134364&oldid=133783 * PrySigneToFry * (+120) 02:18:25 [[Deadfih]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134365&oldid=131400 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+955) Added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp. 02:21:17 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement). 02:32:55 -!- X-Scale has quit (Quit: Client closed). 02:33:38 [[X bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134366 * PrySigneToFry * (+2693) Created page with "x bottles of beers, take y down, x and y are in Real Numbers Set is a program designed and implemented by PSTF. This is the ADVANCED version of [[99 bottles of beer]]. It receives two real number as 02:34:10 [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134367&oldid=134364 * PrySigneToFry * (+71) 02:36:36 [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134368&oldid=128178 * PrySigneToFry * (+111) 02:37:25 I like the terms: "semi-weakly universal" for allowing infinite repeated initialisations in one direction, and "weakly universal" for allowing infinite repetitions in both directions (what "R110 is TC" requires). I have wanted the words for this for some time. 02:38:21 ... they are arguably not great word choices, but I like the fact they are well defined, and exist. 02:41:28 [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134369&oldid=134368 * PrySigneToFry * (+832) 02:48:02 [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134370&oldid=134369 * PrySigneToFry * (+3579) 02:55:29 [[Talk:Never Gonna Fuck You Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134371&oldid=122609 * PrySigneToFry * (+459) /* */ new section 02:59:15 [[Talk:Olympus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134372 * PrySigneToFry * (+1822) /* Commands */ new section 03:09:23 [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134373&oldid=133501 * PrySigneToFry * (+231) 03:14:40 [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134374&oldid=133942 * PrySigneToFry * (+136) 03:19:21 A 5,2 direct UTM seems highly unlikely to impossible (same with 5,2 semi-weakly universal), but a weakly-universal one seems possible, just, a proof either way would be interesting. I wonder if there are other R110 like weakly-universal constructs? Based on that paper, R110 is the only method that'd likely work. 03:19:32 Neary and Woods have already explored this in their (6,2), (3,3) and (2,4) machines, so maybe there's a reason they couldn't make (5,2). Their paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/0707.4489 doesn't directly say anything that indicates whether (5,2) weakly-universal is likely or not. 03:21:30 if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised 03:27:18 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134375 * PrySigneToFry * (+1251) Created page with " is an Esolang designed by PSTF. It is 3018ad-themed. == Example program ==
That outputs: 
 ..."
03:27:49  [[]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134376&oldid=134375 * PrySigneToFry * (+6) 
03:28:41  [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134377&oldid=134052 * PrySigneToFry * (+41) 
03:32:05  the other thing about these weakly-universal machines is they don't necessarily halt, they enter some behavior pattern than can be recognised from outside as halt, the papers talk of a particular kind of r110 glider that will not exist in non-halt states
03:32:15  Non-halting 'halt' states is something we have discussed here before.
03:32:48  [[User:Tommyaweosme/old userpage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134378&oldid=134349 * Unname4798 * (+117) fix links
03:33:56  [[Talk:Quine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134379&oldid=112102 * PrySigneToFry * (+3675) /* Quine by Wenyan */ new section
03:37:07  [[Talk:DWIM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134380 * PrySigneToFry * (+280) /* Even more programs */ new section
03:39:42  [[/]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134381&oldid=134038 * PrySigneToFry * (+5) 
03:46:00  [[Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134382 * Unname4798 * (+219) Unname4798 can't modify the instructions of [[Esolang:Sandbox]], so I created a new sandboz.
03:46:42  [[Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134383&oldid=134382 * Unname4798 * (+23) 
03:48:02  [[Nope.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134384&oldid=134030 * PrySigneToFry * (+16) 
04:02:05  [[Nope.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134385&oldid=134384 * PrySigneToFry * (+76) 
04:02:12  [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Sandbox]]": a) not an esolang; b) we already have a sandbox, we don't need another; c) please do not try to help people circumvent bans, those are placed for a reason
04:30:47  What is the computational class of only using logic gates with no memory? Just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitpEzNgaHU which showed building logic gates in Pokemon, but not memory
04:56:43  It depends on your definition; it could be NC⁰ or AC⁰ depending on which gates you allow. There are more exotic possibilities too.
05:00:40  salpynx: There are a couple possible combinator bases that could be universal aside from inaccessible garbage which doesn't affect the computation, or at least I've been told of the possibility. IIRC, one example is BCIK, which can't forget without W but otherwise still computes stuff.
05:01:00  Wolfram conjectures that S alone also does this, but I don't think there's any good evidence for it.
05:01:57  (To be candid, "Wolfram conjectures P" is, to me, evidence against P.)
05:05:10  korvo: funnily enough I was just reading a Wolfram ... related? paper that suggests the bb(5) program itself might be a candidate for being universal, with a conjecture that all all bb(n) (n > 2) are universal
05:07:14  salpynx: That would be interesting. It would clash with a conjecture of Ligocki that sufficiently-large BB(n) have arbitrarily-large gaps between the champion machine's step count and the runner-up's step count.
05:07:54  Basically, Ligocki conjectures that if we add one more state to a TM, then we don't usually get a +1 action to the corresponding BB. We get something that grows much faster.
05:08:14  I've had thoughts on, and explored the S alone idea, so I know what you are talking about. I felt the bb(n) n>2 conjecture needed a disclaimer, but it was interesting that it pointed to the most likely (5,2) universal machine being bb(5) itself
05:08:59  But universal TMs (or any universal emulators) usually don't have spare or degenerate states that could be repurposed for this. So I think that a TM has to either spend its states on being good at BB, or being good at universal, but not both.
05:12:09  what you say sounds reasonable, that's what I'd imagine too. The paper wasn't especially convincing, but it's an interesting idea. If you are interested, its https://doi.org/10.25088/ComplexSystems.20.3.265
05:12:47  I do love putting papers onto my reading list.
05:13:26  It's definitely that whole "if it behaves weirdly enough, maybe it's TC" Wolfram approach, which can be a bit exhausting to reason about
05:15:09 * korvo gestures to the Butterfly Effect
05:15:15  Is this a Turing machine~
05:19:55  Sgeo: Okay, I've watched the video and did some reading. I think the right class is NC⁰, assuming that the game doesn't have some exotic representation for circuits.
05:20:37  Like, it's technically possible that the game encodes a solver for the NP-hard problem of circuit minimization, allowing it to represent circuits that wouldn't otherwise fit in the game... But not likely.
05:24:30  [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134386&oldid=81299 * Gggfr * (+1) /* Assumptions */
05:24:52  [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134387&oldid=134386 * Gggfr * (+2) 
05:25:10  [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134388&oldid=134387 * Gggfr * (-3) 
05:26:19  korvo, neat
05:26:27  Also I'm surprised that Google worked on that
05:26:43  Sgeo: No worries! Thanks for sharing the video.
05:28:28  [[()()(())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134389&oldid=134144 * Gggfr * (+14) /* syntax */
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06:06:40  here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)?
06:09:42  Yeah, that's definitely possible.
06:11:29  doesn't that break bb(n) at some point? Some n will allow arbitrary Turing machines that can run bb(higher n) as null programs
06:16:36  Oh, I mean, your conjecture sounds good, but also you're right that there could be some BB(n+x) could just happen to be the UTM on empty input.
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06:19:59  at some point, with enough states, you'd get to decide exactly what the null program did (I think?). Does this put a limit on choosing the behavior of the null program, or BB(n) becomes infinite after some n?
06:28:15  ais523: sorry for missing it when you said, but your Grill Tag significantly changes the curve on that figure, nice work!
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06:37:53   here's a draft conjecture: No (n, m) Turing machine can be a UTM with a null program of bb(n + x) (x > 0) (otherwise bb(n) would equal bb(n + x)) ... but why, for sufficently large state counts, couldn't you make the null program an arbitrary bb(n+x)? ← the busy beaver function is uncomputable, I think you have just produced a proof of that
06:38:45  i.e. the reason you can't make the null program calculate bb(n+x) is that you can't make any program do that (without already knowing the value and hardcoding it)
06:39:24  or, hmm, I may have misinterpreted your notation
06:39:46  or just be generally tired
06:42:30  ais523: I interpreted salpynx to be imagining a sheer coincidence in some astronomical number of states, rather than something engineered for it.
06:48:10  "still work to be done to figure out if any of those TMs represent something interesting" => sure, that's basically what writing the human-readable paper means, they want to write each of the no-halt proofs in an as easily understandible way as possible.
06:48:22  maybe I'm being confusing, I meant bb(n+x) to represent the _program_ that computes BB(n)
06:51:12  Oh! Hm.
06:51:25  oh, you mean running the programs for inputs other than all zero? then I don't know. and for that you have to also consider the programs that do something boring on all zeroes and so weren't interesting for the BB discussion.
06:51:55  (do something boring could mean halting, or not halting because they just seek infinitely to find the next 1 symbol on the tape)
06:52:46  I was thinking of astronomical coincidences, but at some point I was imagining you could iterate through all meanings of the null program as well
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06:54:48  I think this puts a limit on what you can code the null program to do, an (n,m) UTM would have some limit on how it can initialise its tape to run a different (x,y) Turing machine
06:56:42  "i'm guessing there's no reliable way to just convert symbol/states to equivalents" => there is an easy way to convert to fewer symbols (even 2), by representing each symbol with a group of multiple symbols on the tape, and converting each state to multiple states that first read to determine what simulated composite symbol is under your cursor then skip its parts to move the simulated head. it's just 
06:56:48  that you won't get any of these record tiny size Turing machines that way. 
06:58:19  I don't know how you can convert to more symbols in exchange of less states though
07:01:10  "if it exists, it's already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised" => why? I expect a small universal machine would either halt or easily provable to never halt on an all-zero tape and so is uninteresting for the challenge, because if you're at the limit of so few symbols and states you can't expect the program to be interesting in two ways, as in being a universal interpreter and doing something 
07:01:16  interesting on zero tape
07:01:47  that would be like expecting that the earliest video games also have an interesting attract mode when you aren't playing them
07:04:01  right, korvo already said that
07:04:36  b_jonas: "already on https://bbchallenge.org but unrecognised", I was assuming bbchalenge is effectively enumerating all (5,2) Turing machines, so if there is a (5,2) UTM, its on there.
07:06:14  From the reading I've done (in the last few hours :) ) it seems that, if it exists, the (5,2) UTM is weakly-universal, meaning that it'll be a non-terminating machine, or perhaps the UTM is the BB(5) machine itself (if a Wolframlike conjecture happens to be true)
07:09:05  There are known (2,4), (3,3), and (6,2) weakly-universal UTMs, so my originally totally uninformed idea that a (5,2) might exist isn't as bad as it could've been.
07:10:27  It's considerably less likely than I originally imagined, and I'm not even going to bother looking for a strongly universal one now, like I might have tried before reading the paper ais523 shared.
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07:21:12  I see now how you can't enumerate all possible (n+x, 2) candidates as null program inputs to (n, 2) UTMs, because there are more (n+x, 2) programs than (n, 2) ones, and only a fraction of (n, 2)s can be UTMs...  So there isn't a systematic way to attack this, but you'd potentially cover _some_, and maybe you'd accidentally hit a higher BB...
07:26:44  The core of my idea was that some (n, m) non BB winners _will_ be UTMs, and a UTM can run higher BB(n) programs. If a (n, m) UTM's null program happened to be a higher BB(n+x), then BB(n) _would_ equal BB(n+x).
07:29:22  .. maybe that's not too profound, but could mean that there's no special reason why the BB number sequence has to increase, two BB numbers could be identical, or it could drop on n+1?
07:30:41  hmm, that sounds a bit cranky. It's definintely counting on astronomical coincidence, if I'm not missing something more basic.
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07:32:45  it's telling me there is a definite limit on what the null program can be made to do, which feels like a suitable esolang thing to examine
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07:53:38  This is the non-coincidental version applying to smaller n: At some n, there are sufficiently many (n,2) UTMs that a subset of them will run every (n-x,2) machine as a null program, for some x > 0.
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08:39:28  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134390&oldid=134299 * Unname4798 * (+53) The page Sandbox got removed
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09:07:51  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134391&oldid=134390 * Ais523 * (-53) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134390|134390]] by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]])  please stop giving counterproductive instructions
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09:33:33  back of envelope calc: at least (79, 2) TMs must be explored to find every (5, 2) TM as a null input UTM: As many states as it takes bits to describe any and all (5, 2) TMs (60 bits) + at least a (19, 2) strong UTM to interpret it, assuming the UTM can just read a pretty efficiently encoded TM and execute it.
10:14:55  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134392&oldid=134391 * Unname4798 * (+53) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/134391|134391]] by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]): Please stop removing productive instructions!
10:16:25  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134393&oldid=134392 * Unname4798 * (+84) 
10:17:37  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134394&oldid=134393 * Unname4798 * (+38) 
10:18:16  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134395&oldid=134394 * Unname4798 * (+11) 
10:18:25  [[Esolang:Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134396&oldid=134395 * Unname4798 * (-1) 
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10:58:09  ``` /hackenv/tmp/hlu # ok, so I succeeded to compile a hello world executable outside of HackEso but targeting it, then download it to HackEso
10:58:11  ra,
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11:30:09  I'll leave this here for comment, it's getting late for me too,
11:30:16  The mechanism of hitting a higher BB would be: (b, m) UTM combined with an (a, m) halting TM initialiser machine that just happens to compress a BB(a + b + x, m) init state encoded for that UTM. This would create a (a+b, m) UTM that runs a (a+b+x, M) busy beaver as its null program. 
11:30:29  I understand that the BB(a + b + x, m) program can't be engineered, it'd have to be discovered, and it's additionally required that its code be generated by an (a, m) halting TM, so there might be data compression limitations. It seems reasonable that BB winners won't be very compressable. The only thing going for this is a large search space, and perhaps not being able to prove it couldn't happen by chance
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11:51:33  I must be missing something, if BB(n) can take a shortcut to BB(n+x) by chance, BB(n+1) should be able to take the same one, and so on. 
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13:45:07  apparently SMBC's recurring supervillain from https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/supervillainy has a name. he's called the Pterrordactyl. I didn't know this because the name rarely appears in strips.
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14:34:39  [[Ichi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134402&oldid=134298 * TheCanon2 * (+57) added to the design section
14:37:04  [[User talk:RainbowDash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134403 * Xff * (+193) Created page with "== on [[nope]] hello. your work with my esolang is very good. but there is one error(by me) and that is labels are just commands. jump to nearest  like this:  store 1 1  jl 1 store 1 1"
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14:44:27  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134405&oldid=134360 * Xff * (+59) 
14:46:30  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134406&oldid=134405 * Xff * (-60) 
14:49:12  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134407&oldid=134406 * Xff * (+53) 
14:54:18  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134408&oldid=134407 * Xff * (+45) 
15:01:43  [[User:Europe2048]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134409&oldid=127771 * Europe2048 * (+8) 
15:13:39  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134410&oldid=133676 * Squareroot12621 * (+249) Added Messenger.
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15:49:49  [[BFFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134411&oldid=129597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) Categories
15:50:13  [[BFFB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134412&oldid=134411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) Category
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15:58:39  [[Rnadom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134413&oldid=134279 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) Categories
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16:08:38  [[()()(())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134414&oldid=134389 * Xff * (-1) /* examples */
16:18:27  [[()()(())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134415&oldid=134414 * Xff * (+26) 
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17:07:52  [[AEL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134416 * Pro465 * (+72) Created page with "{{WIP}}  AEL (An Esoteric Language) is a WIP esolang by [[User:Pro465]]."
17:09:01  [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134417&oldid=134401 * Itoh Shimon * (-33) category
17:09:44  [[User:Pro465]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134418&oldid=128080 * Pro465 * (+12) /* Esolangs created */ add AEL
17:10:11  [[Normalcalc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134419&oldid=134417 * Itoh Shimon * (+33) category
17:15:15  [[User:Itoh Shimon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134420&oldid=134334 * Itoh Shimon * (+58) 
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17:24:45  [[User:BestCoder]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134421&oldid=131208 * BestCoder * (+64) 
17:26:16  [[User:BestCoder]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134422&oldid=134421 * BestCoder * (+48) 
17:26:37  [[User:BestCoder]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134423&oldid=134422 * BestCoder * (-1) 
17:27:04  [[User:BestCoder]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134424&oldid=134423 * BestCoder * (+0) 
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17:47:31  [[AEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134425&oldid=134416 * Pro465 * (+722) add some instructions
18:05:06  [[User talk:Unname4798]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134426&oldid=133923 * Tommyaweosme * (+331) 
18:06:34  [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134427&oldid=134307 * Tommyaweosme * (+377) 
18:09:34  [[User:Tommyaweosme]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134428&oldid=134356 * Tommyaweosme * (-169) 
18:10:36  [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134429&oldid=134425 * Pro465 * (+224) make it less complicated
18:14:28  [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134430&oldid=134429 * Pro465 * (+170) formatting
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20:21:38  [[BrainofGolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134431 * Ractangle * (+367) Created page with "BrainofGolf is an golfing-esolang with [[Brainfuck|bf]] syntax created by [[Ractangle]] ==Commands== ===Brainfuck=== You can use the Brainfuck commands (except the dot) as variable commands {| class="wikitable" ! Command !! It's action |- | " || Turns everything in
20:22:28  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134432&oldid=134431 * Ractangle * (+18) /* Brainfuck */
20:25:10  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134433&oldid=134432 * Ractangle * (+56) /* BrainofGolf */
20:25:49  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134434&oldid=134433 * Ractangle * (+25) /* Brainfuck */
20:26:47  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134435&oldid=134434 * Ractangle * (+0) /* BrainofGolf */
20:28:40  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134436&oldid=134435 * Ractangle * (+71) /* BrainofGolf */
20:29:48  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134437&oldid=134436 * Ractangle * (+23) /* BrainofGolf */
20:31:12  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134438&oldid=134437 * Ractangle * (+74) /* BrainofGolf */
20:32:47  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134439&oldid=134438 * Ractangle * (+59) 
20:41:37  A chess variant that my brother had made up and we had together worked to improve some of the rules is this: At the start of the game, each player secretly writes rook, knight, bishop, or pawn.
20:41:39  Each player can, once per game, move an opponent's piece of the same kind that you had secretly written, instead of moving one of your own pieces, as though it was the opponent moving it on their turn but you choose where to move it to (and it can capture your own pieces in this way); if you do, then after the move, that piece is now your piece.
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22:11:26  [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134440&oldid=134396 * Ais523 * (-185) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Unname4798|Unname4798]] ([[User talk:Unname4798|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
22:12:56  [[Special:Log/block]] block  * Ais523 *  blocked [[User:Unname4798]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): repeatedly messing with the sandbox instructions, in a way that could confuse new users
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22:21:48  [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134441&oldid=134362 * TheCanon2 * (+26) Added Or++
22:22:08  [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134442&oldid=134427 * Ais523 * (+1887) /* the war */ explain
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23:17:34  [[Or++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134443 * TheCanon2 * (+1713) Created the page.
23:18:40  [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134444&oldid=120076 * TheCanon2 * (+11) Or++, superset of or
23:22:34  [[User:TheCanon2]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134445&oldid=134441 * TheCanon2 * (+4) 
23:23:54  [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134446 * Salpynx * (+4944) probably made a mistake somewhere... I'll recheck when i format the maths better, later
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2024-08-02:

00:04:11 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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00:54:05  [[Rizzlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134447&oldid=133252 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+76) 
01:03:50  [[Talk:Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134448 * PrySigneToFry * (+2006) /* Even longer */ new section
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01:18:51  [[Talk:Emojifunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134449&oldid=89058 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+234) 
01:21:00  [[Talk:Emojifunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134450&oldid=134449 * ZachChecksOutEsolangs * (+221) 
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04:25:21  [[User talk:Xff]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134451&oldid=133399 * RainbowDash * (+631) /* On nope */ new section
04:37:54  [[Nope]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134452&oldid=134408 * RainbowDash * (+94) /* Count down from 100 */
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05:24:31  [[AEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134453&oldid=134430 * Pro465 * (+386) add more stuff
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05:37:50  [[AEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134454&oldid=134453 * Pro465 * (+172) add more features
06:13:30  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134455&oldid=134452 * Gggfr * (+13) 
06:13:52  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134456&oldid=134439 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
06:15:45  [[Nope]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134457&oldid=134455 * Gggfr * (-92) 
06:19:12  [[User talk:RainbowDash]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134458&oldid=134404 * Gggfr * (+1127) 
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07:28:09  I wish the websites that have *-latest links where you can directly download whatever the latest version of something is would give a Content-Disposition to give a filename including version number
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08:10:29  [[Element]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134459&oldid=70781 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Hello World */
08:25:27  b_jonas: Can you easily do that with just symlinks? https://serverfault.com/questions/638189/make-apache-generate-content-disposition-for-symlinks never got any answer.
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09:26:23  b_jonas: the other question, of course, is whether *users* of those links really want that or not.
09:26:49  Because there will be people using them in scripts.
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09:53:35  [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134460&oldid=134446 * Salpynx * (+496) maybe my calculations are wrong, but the (107, 2) machine seems to be working
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11:16:38  i just added Loader's Number. i'll be happy to hear about any size improvements you can make. would be awesome to fit it in a (280 byte) tweet
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11:45:02  [[User talk:RainbowDash]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134461&oldid=134458 * PkmnQ * (+444) /* on nope */
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12:03:56  [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134462&oldid=134460 * Salpynx * (-769) among other stupid mistakes, I was counting rules instead of states
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12:06:15  [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134463&oldid=134462 * Salpynx * (-4) /* Symbol-reduction Conversion state count */
12:08:31  [[User:Tommyaweosme]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134464&oldid=134428 * Unname4798 * (+68) 
12:12:03  [[User:Salpynx/2-symbol-tm-conversion]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134465&oldid=134463 * Salpynx * (+139) /* External links */ I think there are a couple of unnecessary states, so it's 105 or 106 state 2 symbol
12:12:09  [[User:Tommyaweosme]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134466&oldid=134464 * Unname4798 * (+19) 
12:13:04  [[User talk:Unname4798]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134467&oldid=134426 * Unname4798 * (+0) 
12:13:13  [[User talk:Unname4798]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134468&oldid=134467 * Unname4798 * (+1) 
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12:17:39  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134469 * Unname4798 * (+170) Created page with "This is the sandbox page on Esolangs.  And don't forget, '''''do not remove the tests!'''''  Ais523, you aren't allowed on this page!"
12:19:08  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134470&oldid=134469 * Unname4798 * (+3) 
12:19:44  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134471&oldid=134470 * Unname4798 * (-7) 
12:20:22  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134472&oldid=134471 * Unname4798 * (+4) 
12:20:37  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134473&oldid=134472 * Unname4798 * (-3) 
12:27:57  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * LillyHStClaire *  New user account
12:31:13  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134474&oldid=134456 * Ractangle * (+94) /* BrainofGolf */
12:36:54  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134475&oldid=134325 * LillyHStClaire * (+452) An introduction
12:37:17  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134476&oldid=134474 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Brainfuck */
12:37:40  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134477&oldid=134473 * Unname4798 * (+31) 
12:37:57  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134478&oldid=134476 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
12:38:08  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134479&oldid=134477 * Unname4798 * (+11) 
12:38:25  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134480&oldid=134479 * Unname4798 * (+6) 
12:38:35  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134481&oldid=134480 * Unname4798 * (+1) 
12:52:53  [[Boolfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134482&oldid=101518 * LillyHStClaire * (+505) Adds a small summary on how the IO stream works
12:53:12  [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134483&oldid=133684 * PkmnQ * (+242) /* Some ideas */ Something to look into later
12:55:06  [[Boolfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134484&oldid=134482 * LillyHStClaire * (+55) fix missing code blocks in IO explanation
12:58:54  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134485&oldid=134478 * Ractangle * (+184) /* BrainofGolf */
12:59:05  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134486&oldid=134485 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Examples */
13:00:05  [[BrainofGolf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134487&oldid=134486 * None1 * (+58) Don't forget to categorize!
13:04:06  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134488&oldid=134487 * Ractangle * (+129) /* BrainofGolf */
13:05:19  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134489&oldid=134488 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Examples */
13:05:55  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134490&oldid=134489 * Ractangle * (+30) /* Truth-machine */
13:10:06  [[Ractangle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134491&oldid=133074 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Esolangs */
13:11:04  [[Ractangle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134492&oldid=134491 * Ractangle * (+7) 
13:12:32  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134493&oldid=131795 * Ractangle * (-44) 
13:16:44  [[Or++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134494&oldid=134443 * TheCanon2 * (+338) Noted input functionality and modified the interpreter
13:18:20  [[FastBrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134495 * None1 * (+1861) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=bf}} It is made because of one of the weaknesses in bf: Moving to another cell in the tape is slow. ==Tape== Instead of a 1D tape, FastBrain has a 15D tape. ==Commands== 
 < - Move the tape to the left > - Move the tape to the right ^ - Move th
13:18:39  [[FastBrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134496&oldid=134495 * None1 * (+4) 
13:19:16  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134497&oldid=134361 * None1 * (+16) /* F */
13:19:59  [[User:None1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134498&oldid=132969 * None1 * (+47) /* My Esolangs */
13:26:14  [[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134499&oldid=134481 * Unname4798 * (-6) 
13:27:51  [[AEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134500&oldid=134454 * Pro465 * (+719) 
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13:39:42  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134501&oldid=134493 * Ractangle * (-896) 
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14:07:39  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134502&oldid=134501 * Ractangle * (-41) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:18:17  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134503&oldid=134502 * Ractangle * (+0) /* Deadfish implementation */
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14:38:49  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134504&oldid=134503 * Ractangle * (-26) /* Block-CLFCE */
14:45:16  [[CLFCE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134505&oldid=134504 * Ractangle * (+16) /* Block-CLFCE */
14:45:53  [[Ractangle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134506&oldid=134492 * Ractangle * (+7) /* Esolangs */
14:47:26  [[Xdi8 aho fHL mA]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134507&oldid=131749 * PrySigneToFry * (+119) 
14:49:22  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134508&oldid=131796 * Ractangle * (+57) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:50:09  [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134509&oldid=134287 * Ractangle * (+57) /* (script()) */
14:50:52  [[Talk:Disan Count]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134510&oldid=119273 * PrySigneToFry * (+173) /* Huh? */ new section
14:51:36  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134511&oldid=134508 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Commands */
14:51:57  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134512&oldid=134511 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Truth-machine */
14:52:45  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134513&oldid=134512 * Ractangle * (+6) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:53:09  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134514&oldid=134513 * Ractangle * (-29) /* Commands */
14:53:53  [[(script())]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134515&oldid=134514 * Ractangle * (-25) /* Deadfish implementation */
14:54:27  [[UTC+8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134516&oldid=119295 * PrySigneToFry * (+122) 
14:54:35  [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134517&oldid=134509 * Ractangle * (-19) /* (script()) */
14:57:21  [[Or++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134518&oldid=134494 * TheCanon2 * (+0) forgot space
15:00:21  [[Wenyan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134519&oldid=134370 * PrySigneToFry * (+756) 
15:01:23  [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134520&oldid=134517 * Ractangle * (-293) /* CLFCE */
15:02:03  [[Wenyan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134521&oldid=134519 * PrySigneToFry * (+44) 
15:02:18  [['interbasic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134522&oldid=131798 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Deadfish implementation */
15:02:38  [[Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134523&oldid=134520 * Ractangle * (-3) /* 'interbasic */
15:03:15  [[Nope.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134524&oldid=134385 * PrySigneToFry * (+296) 
15:04:09  [['interbasic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134525&oldid=134522 * Ractangle * (+1) /* Commands */
15:05:50  [[?++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134526&oldid=129034 * Ractangle * (-8) /* One Time Cat */
15:10:09  [[Talk:Nope.]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134527&oldid=60719 * PrySigneToFry * (+146) /* I written a poem for this Esolang( */ new section
15:20:47  [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134528&oldid=134374 * PrySigneToFry * (+1095) 
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15:23:55  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134529&oldid=134490 * Ractangle * (+17) /* BrainofGolf */
15:24:20  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134530&oldid=134529 * Ractangle * (-16) /* BrainofGolf */
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15:27:56  [[PokBattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134531&oldid=127495 * PrySigneToFry * (+2037) Edit on Hello, world!
15:33:27  [[Talk:PokBattle]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134532&oldid=127496 * PrySigneToFry * (+878) /* A pseudo code */ new section
15:37:59  [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/TEST2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134533 * PrySigneToFry * (+309) Created page with "{{{}}} [[95-98]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134539 * Xff * (+1021) Created page with "95-98 is a esolang thats just... stupid. it was made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == name == the name comes from a wikipedia article where it said 95-98 somewhere == how it works == memory is stored in a list. the command x-y will append all the numbers in range x to y,
17:46:25  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134540&oldid=134539 * Xff * (+13) 
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17:56:14  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134541&oldid=134540 * Xff * (+393) 
17:56:30  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134542&oldid=134541 * Xff * (+0) 
17:57:01  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134543&oldid=134542 * Xff * (+0) /* computational class */
17:57:11  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134544&oldid=134543 * Xff * (+0) /* computational class */
18:01:57  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134545&oldid=134544 * Xff * (+147) 
18:13:30  [[AEL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134546&oldid=134536 * Pro465 * (+121) 
18:18:32  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134547&oldid=134545 * Xff * (+137) /* computational class */
18:18:42  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134548&oldid=134547 * Xff * (-1) /* computational class */
18:19:27  [[AEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134549&oldid=134546 * Pro465 * (-1) /* Fibonacci */ fix
18:35:08  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134550&oldid=134548 * Xff * (+228) 
18:40:00  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134551&oldid=134550 * Xff * (+357) 
18:41:10  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134552&oldid=134551 * Xff * (+17) /* computational class */
18:42:48  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134553&oldid=134552 * Xff * (+49) 
18:54:49  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134554&oldid=134553 * Xff * (+126) /* tips */
18:55:23  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134555&oldid=134554 * Xff * (+4) /* examples */
19:03:23 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
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19:11:14  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134556&oldid=134555 * Xff * (+34) /* examples */
19:11:46  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134557&oldid=134556 * Xff * (+8) /* examples */
19:12:03  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134558&oldid=134557 * Xff * (+1) /* computational class */
19:13:54  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134559&oldid=133677 * Xff * (+128) /*  */
19:18:18 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
19:27:35  [[User:Tommyaweosme]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134560&oldid=134466 * Tommyaweosme * (+107) 
19:28:38  [[Looping counter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134561&oldid=134132 * Xff * (+36) /* Examples */
19:30:00 -!- tromp has joined.
19:32:00  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134562&oldid=134558 * Xff * (+106) 
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20:03:20  [[User talk:Gggfr]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134563&oldid=133393 * RainbowDash * (+791) /* on nope */ new section
20:03:39  [[User talk:Gggfr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134564&oldid=134563 * RainbowDash * (+95) Signature
20:08:30  [[]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134565&oldid=132148 * Xff * (-26) 
20:09:56  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134566&oldid=134530 * Ractangle * (-193) /* BrainofGolf */
20:11:25  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134567&oldid=134566 * Ractangle * (+27) /* Truth-machine */
20:13:23  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134568&oldid=134567 * Ractangle * (+31) /* Brainfuck */
20:13:40  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134569&oldid=134562 * Xff * (+83) /* name */
20:16:41  [[95-98]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134570&oldid=134569 * Xff * (+50) 
20:18:45  [[BrainofGolf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134571&oldid=134568 * Ractangle * (+157) /* BrainofGolf */
20:23:03  [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Esolang:Sandbox/Archive 1]]": a) archiving a page for test edits is inherently useless; b) clearly an attempt to circumvent a block
20:23:07  [[!()]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134572&oldid=133653 * Xff * (+33) /* examples */
20:23:15  [[!()]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134573&oldid=134572 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
20:25:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:26:01  re: the "sandbox wars" – I have realised, that under the default principle of "follow Wikipedia's rules except when ours are explicitly different", I should be asking other administrators to do sandbox-related blocks rather than doing them myself
20:26:06 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:26:17  [[Xx]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134574&oldid=134321 * Xff * (+33) /* examples */
20:26:29  are people OK to let me continue doing this, and/or to take over the blocks themself to make it clear that it isn't just one admin's opinion?
20:26:41  I am still amazed that something this ridiculous has lead to this much controversy
20:26:41  [[Xx]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134575&oldid=134574 * Xff * (+1) /* examples */
20:27:30  [[Xx]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134576&oldid=134575 * Xff * (+1) /* examples */
20:27:40  [[Xx]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134577&oldid=134576 * Xff * (+0) /* examples */
20:31:21  [[Ns2dL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134578&oldid=133616 * Xff * (+0) 
20:31:40  asking other moderators works better on bigger wikis which have more moderators that are active
20:32:00  Was going to say. I think the problem with that is, all us other nominal admins are useless wretches who never manage to get anything done.
20:33:24  But I'm happy to at least confirm that I agree with your interpretation of the Sandbox page's intended purpose, and wish people would just stop messing with it. (They're of course welcome to continue their preservation work outside the wiki. Not that I really understand it fully.)
20:34:32 -!- tromp has joined.
20:37:05  yes – although we probably can't interfere with what they're doing offwiki, I think it wouldn't make sense to do so even if we could
20:38:39  [[Slashist]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134579&oldid=132864 * Xff * (+11) /* Cat program */  added code formatting
20:38:58  [[Slashist]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134580&oldid=134579 * Xff * (+11) /* Truth machine */ code formatting
20:39:14 -!- lutherann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:40:12  can we book an arena, buy some weapons, and get them to fight to death? only it's the 21st century so we have to put cameras to their forehead for a nice first person view shots
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20:41:47  [[Template:Reflist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134581 * Ais523 * (+14) a few people have attempted to use this template, presumably in an analogous manner to the template with the same name at Wikipedia: create a template that does the same thing (but with code that's written from scratch and is much simpler)
20:43:50  By the way, do we know if these are Discord people? And/or, is there any cross-pollination between the IRC channel and the (two?) Discord communities? 
20:44:10  I seem to have gotten an impression that the two had some sort of a spat.
20:44:29  ...There are two Discord communities?
20:44:32  [[Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134582&oldid=134561 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
20:44:50  According to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal there are.
20:44:51  I most esolang here, but everything else I'm mostly on Discord. I've talked on one of the Discords a bit lately
20:45:00 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:45:30  there used to be two, with some sort of dispute about which one was "official" / new users should go to (presumably they both wanted it), but I don't know what happened after that
20:45:58  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134583&oldid=134559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) Sort
20:46:39  it would be helpful if one or more of the regulars here was also a regular in the Discord community/communities, so that we could have some idea of what was going on over there
20:46:58  Without an account, Discord apparently shows you user counts; there's 50 users "online" on one, and 218 on the other, which doesn't sound like a definite victory one way or another.
20:47:23  I don't know if the sandbox thing has anything to do with either Discord group, it just sounds like the sort of thing that could.
20:48:11  by comparison, there are 80 nicknames currently in this channel, which I suspect might be analogous to the Discord user counts
20:48:22  i.e. mostly idlers, but people who would notice if you pinged them, plus the occasional bot
20:48:58  I get the impression that many of the people messing with the sandbox know each other *somehow* offwiki, e.g. they are doing things with each others' permission but the permission wasn't sought onwiki
20:50:46  (Discord also shows "member" counts, 152 and 768 respectively, but I don't know if that's more like "has once been there and still has a Discord account and hasn't taken a positive step to disassociate themselves" or something else.)
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20:53:57  [[Talk:Or++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134584 * Ais523 * (+397) computational class proof is wrong
20:59:20  [[( )]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134585 * Xff * (+1132) Created page with "{{{{wrongtitle|title=[ ] }}  '''[ ] ''' is a very simple and very stupid esolang made by [[User:Yayimhere]] == how it works == [] will swap the chars in and outside the braces.(so [A]B become [B]A. if there is a space before the braces it wi
20:59:44  [[( )]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134586&oldid=134585 * Xff * (+6) /* how it works */
20:59:56  [[( )]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134587&oldid=134586 * Xff * (-2) 
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21:06:23  I think I joined these Discord guilds, or at least one of them, though I don't really use them for anything and they'll be among the first I leave when I leave the 200 guild limit
21:06:52  I'm on only one of them I think
21:08:03  ooh: apparently tag systems are TC with only two symbols: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.6700
21:08:24  both of their logos is a trilime, I'm on the one whose logo is a three-colored trilime, the other's logo is a rainbow trilime
21:09:32  even better, one of the symbols appears to expand to itself – which may make this good for creating other small universal constructions
21:10:53  we should make a fourth version of the trilime (besides these two and the wiki logo) and call it the official logo of this channel
21:11:05  `? logo
21:11:06  `logo
21:11:08  logo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:11:08  logo? No such file or directory
21:12:54  I don't think IRC channels normally have logos
21:13:20  I tried to make one that was three rectangles, somewhat similarly positioned, with colors taken from the original, but it didn't really look good.
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21:14:17  I guess the IRC channel's logo could be used as the favicon of logs.esolangs.org, now it's just the regular trilime.
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21:14:59  I should try to photograph three slices of a lemon 
21:15:14  the history of the trilime is great
21:15:26  IIRC it was originally a placeholder image, but it fit so well we decided to keep it
21:15:26 -!- drwizard has joined.
21:15:38  wow! this channel is so much bigger than #cs
21:16:18  is that why Thue is the featured language forever? it "fits so well"?
21:16:41  where is Thue the featured language?
21:16:59  `welcome drwizard
21:17:01  drwizard: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:17:07  ^ on that wiki
21:17:44  ok
21:17:50  no, Thue is mostly just the featured language because it takes a lot of effort to get a page up to a high enough level of quality to feature, and because the featured language process ends up getting very biased if I try to do the whole thing by myself
21:17:52  hi drwizard, anyway
21:18:00  hi ais523
21:18:17  what does the number 523 mean? what's its significance?
21:18:31  it was originally randomly selected
21:18:36  cool
21:18:40  (by a computer, not by me)
21:18:47  followers of Discordianism apparently find this hilarious
21:18:51  so is this the real place to discuss computer science?
21:19:04  because otherwise #cs is almost dead
21:19:17  in a way – this place discusses esoteric programming languages, but there is something of an overlap with computer science
21:19:34  It's also... often not very lively here either.
21:19:41  and #bitwise is active but they seem to focus more on reading complete books
21:19:42  there is a bias towards dicussing things that aren't practically useful here; we generally assume that there are other places doing the useful things, but maybe there aren't?
21:20:03  ais523: interesting. so then I'll ask my CS questions here when I have them. hope that's fine.
21:21:17  I think CS might be technically offtopic, but a) conversation here doesn't always stay ontopic and b) esolangs run into random areas of CS often enough that it is hard to tell for sure that a CS question is offtopic
21:21:38  ok
21:22:04  then I'll stick to #bitwise for practical matters and ask questions about more theoretical stuff here
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21:22:39  I'm guessing things theory of computation, complexity classes, decidability, etc. would be ok here?
21:22:45  I think #esoteric is currently in the state of "it can be idle for ages at a time, but if two people start having a conversation then often others join in"
21:23:07  we discuss computational class more often that complexity class, but complexity class does come up from time to time
21:23:37  theory of computation and decidability are very commonly discussed, although the things we apply them to are often pretty weird
21:24:06  discussing computational class vs complexity class... which one does this month's ultra-secret password belong to?
21:24:09  often, when a low-level esolang is designed, one of the most obvious questions is "is this Turing-copmlete"
21:24:36  b_jonas: well, the distinciton is that complexity class is based around how long a computation takes, whereas computational class is based around whether you can do it at all
21:25:24  the whole busy beaver project is based around taking an uncomputable function and trying to compute as much of it as we can – we know that eventually we will get stuck, but don't know where or why
21:25:46  or, well, we know why in general terms, but not what the specific issue will be
21:29:19  sure but that description doesn't apply to complexity classes only because we can't prove that we'll get stuck. if someone guaranteed that some computational problem (like breaking a cryptographical primitive) takes exponential time in its size, we'd still try to solve as much of it as we can and see how big sizes we can still wolve
21:29:44  s/wolve/solve/
21:30:08  there are two parts to the busy beaver problem, really: which machines halt, and how long does the slowest take to halt?
21:30:25  and the former feels like more of a computational class problem, whereas the latter is complexity; but the former is probably more interesting
21:31:59  btw somehow the youtube content miners found out about the "who can name a bigger number" thing and there's suddenly like half a dozen videos out about it. I haven't try to watch them yet because when a topic is so trendy most of the videos would just make me despair, and I already know where to look for good articles on that topic.
21:32:13  the weird part is that one of the videos is by CodeParade
21:32:42  (haven't watched that one either yet)
21:33:01  I know this sometimes happens for some topic, when everyone tries to be the first to cover the same topic 
21:33:04  but it's still weird
21:34:32  b_jonas: what's the significance of codeparade? is that a popular name or personality?
21:35:32  I think "in Magic: the Gathering, the furthest distance you can send the opponent's life total below zero, on turn 1, with a Vintage-legal 60-card deck that is incapable of sending it an arbitrarily far distance" is likely to win most biggest-number competitions that don't use a similar construction
21:36:04  people have constructed Ackermann-like functions with the Busy Beaver function as part of it, in that
21:39:58  ais523: that ... might run into a problem where the M:tG rules aren't clear enough
21:40:26  and even besides that I think people have named numbers bigger than that, but of course I can't prove this
21:41:04  drwizard: that I have heard of his youtube channel before these videos appeared
21:41:24  b_jonas: that is possible, I guess
21:41:42  there is the whole "is it possible to use Shaharazad as a halting oracle?" thing, but Wizards solved the problem by banning it from Vintage
21:41:48  ackermann-like functions with the busy beaver function isn't something that didn't occur to the big number people before M:tG
21:42:31  "Wizards solved the problem by banning it from Vintage" => uh... 
21:42:42  but also
21:43:06  haven't people already used the M:tG rules about infinite loops as a halting oracle?
21:43:14  without Shahrazad
21:43:24  possibly but I think the consensus among judges I've asked is that they don't work like that
21:43:38  in that a loop of actions which never repeats may not be a draw
21:44:06  the purpose of Shahrazad would be to replace the draw with something that allows the game to continue, so that a "doesn't halt" result wouldn't immediately cause a halt
21:44:18  well it can't be just any actions, you have to at least give the players no choice to break the loop
21:44:42  but yeah, it's possible that the rules don't allow it
21:45:13  in any case, none of that should affect how large a number you can name using a modified version of M:tG
21:45:52  as long as the rules for the modified version are clear enough
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21:53:37  I'm also not sure if that M:tG number can even reasonably be made well-defined
21:54:08  but I'm very much not an expert on the large number thing, I mostly ignored it
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22:42:49  [[Thue/Turn based battle game]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134588 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+656) Created page with " {input}::=:::  attackE::={inputted}  heal::=PP{inputted}  {inputted}::=A{sayAttack};  {sayAttack}::=~ ENEMY ATTACKS!   PA;::={infoplayer<{printplayer}}  {printplayer}::=~ PLAYER HP:   {print
22:43:06  [[Thue/Turn based battle game]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134589&oldid=134588 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+269) 
22:43:20  [[Thue/Turn based battle game]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134590&oldid=134589 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (-184) 
22:44:25  [[( )]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=134591&oldid=134587 * Ais523 * (+47) prevent some of the spaces being elided by MediaWiki, or by the browser after passing through MediaWiki
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2024-08-03:

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00:04:40  ais523: As a Discordian: Yes, it's hilarious. Discordian numerology highlights 5 and 23 (and equations like 5 = 2 + 3), that's all, but they're highlighted for their ubiquity.
00:05:36  Like, 5 is a good default length for certain buffers and caches, it's a good cutoff for individual items vs piles of items, it's a good number of acts for a dramatic play, but it's not magic. I think.
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00:06:56  So for a PRNG to tell you that 523 is "random" when its source is somewhere between "trust me i got the good entropy" and "i made it up by decoding the entrails of divine truth" is *extremely* funny, on par with that one part of Illuminatus! where all the Olympian gods are sitting around smoking cannabis.
02:24:44  [[User:Tommyaweosme/blockedlist]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=134592 * Tommyaweosme * (+736) Created page with "