00:02:22 -!- mtm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:02:54 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement). 00:05:40 -!- mtm has joined. 01:00:52 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140043&oldid=139906 * WikiRasp * (-81) Better 01:02:21 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140044&oldid=140043 * WikiRasp * (+6) I got rid of a 
 by accident
01:34:09  [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140045&oldid=139961 * Tommyaweosme * (+33) 
01:34:51  [[Talk:My-new-esolang.txt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140046&oldid=139952 * Tommyaweosme * (+222) 
01:39:38  [[Talk:Brainfuckconsole74]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140047&oldid=139967 * Tommyaweosme * (+203) 
02:00:19  [[ABPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140048&oldid=140041 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) Categories
02:15:00  [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140049&oldid=140044 * Cycwin * (+24) 
03:03:22  [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140050&oldid=127741 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+14) 
03:03:32  [[Esolangs]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140051&oldid=140050 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+0) /* Examples */
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03:42:21  [[Talk:Brainfuckconsole74]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140052&oldid=140047 * MihaiEso * (+4078) 
04:45:21  [[User:Tommyaweosme/tommyaweosme english]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140053&oldid=139988 * PrySigneToFry * (+156) 
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04:50:49  [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140054&oldid=139990 * PrySigneToFry * (+19) 
04:52:04  [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140055 * PrySigneToFry * (+2072) Created page with "-- is an Esolang designed by PSTF. It is ACTUALLY derived from [[deadfish]].  == Commands == 
 This Esolang|Deadfish|Meaning           |i       |Increase           |d       |Decrease           |s       |Square           |o       |Output as Integer 
 == Examples 
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04:56:50  [[Protogen/Better python interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140056 * DifferentDance8 * (+686) Created page with "[[User:DifferentDance8]] created a significantly improved version of the official [[Protogen]] interpreter called "Pygen". It differs from the official Protogen interpreter in that it allows users to indirectly use the examples folder b
04:57:13  [[BubbleLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140057&oldid=139969 * PrySigneToFry * (+403) 
04:57:42  [[Protogen]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140058&oldid=101399 * DifferentDance8 * (+92) 
04:58:24  [[Protogen/Better python interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140059&oldid=140056 * DifferentDance8 * (+41) 
05:00:55  [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140060&oldid=140027 * PrySigneToFry * (+789) /* My talking page */ new section
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05:06:37  [[PIX]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140061&oldid=140020 * PrySigneToFry * (+196) 
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05:11:57  [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140062&oldid=139977 * PrySigneToFry * (+728) /* Would you like to contribute to BubbleLang? */ new section
05:13:05  [[User:PrySigneToFry]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140063&oldid=139976 * PrySigneToFry * (+19) 
05:16:40  [[User:DifferentDance8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140064&oldid=139855 * DifferentDance8 * (+156) 
05:28:44  [[User:DifferentDance8]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140065&oldid=140064 * DifferentDance8 * (+166) 
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05:43:32  [[E q u a t i o n]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140066 * DifferentDance8 * (+5031) Created page with "'''E q u a t i o n''' (formerly titled '''ComplexEquations''') is an esoteric programming language where every aspect must be represented through an equation. The language is designed to handle simple arithmetic operations, emphasizing the use of equatio
05:45:19  [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140067&oldid=107953 * DifferentDance8 * (+13) /* Use the visualizer */
05:50:57  [[!!!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140068&oldid=127324 * DifferentDance8 * (+29) This moves turns !! from a orphaned page to a dead-end page, which is still bad but better than an orphaned page
05:51:38  [[3 bytes :v)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140069&oldid=105866 * DifferentDance8 * (+32) another orphan turned dead-end
05:59:42  [[Protogen/Better python interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140070&oldid=140059 * DifferentDance8 * (+30) 
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06:23:18  [[6 bytes of useless element]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140071 * Yayimhere * (+321) Created page with "'''6 bytes of useless element''' is a esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] inspired by [[3 bytes :v)]] == how it works == take the program delete the first char and output the program and then a f == examples == [[Quine]]:  ff [[hello, world!]]
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06:33:39  [[User talk:Unname4798/tommyaweosme english]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140072 * Unname4798 * (+1425) Created page with "{{WIP}} tommyaweosme english is a page created by mihai popa and tommyaweosme. here is a table with all differences between normal english and tommyaweosme one's  == Key Contributors == # Mihai Popa&Tommyaweosme: Created this topic #
06:33:51  [[User talk:Unname4798/tommyaweosme english]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140073&oldid=140072 * Unname4798 * (+180) 
06:35:24  [[User talk:Unname4798/tommyaweosme english]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140074&oldid=140073 * Unname4798 * (+0) 
06:37:43  [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140075&oldid=140045 * Unname4798 * (-26) 
06:41:45 -!- tromp has joined.
07:41:13  the underlaod two command thing *kinda* cheats since it uses : and () but just not directly
07:41:22  but they are still intepreted by ^
07:41:23  ^
08:00:58  [[!!SuperPrime]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140076&oldid=109170 * PkmnQ * (+49) un-dead end and make implementations more clear
08:01:06  [[(PTM)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140077&oldid=75821 * PkmnQ * (+8) un-dead end
08:03:15  [[Tarflex]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140078&oldid=80134 * Yayimhere * (+9) /* Quine */ is a cheating one
08:04:01  [[!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140079&oldid=128517 * PkmnQ * (+18) un-dead end
08:09:10  [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140080 * Yayimhere * (+108) Created page with "WHAT IS IT??? [:~~~~:]"
08:09:18  [[3 bits, unshackled]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140081&oldid=132849 * PkmnQ * (+78) un-dead end
08:26:04  [[Spaced]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140082 * PkmnQ * (+548) Got reminded of the existence of this
08:26:14  [[Spaced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140083&oldid=140082 * PkmnQ * (-1) 
08:26:41  [[Ndef]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140084&oldid=79711 * Yayimhere * (+0) User: part of link inside link
08:30:29  [[TDML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140085 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+2738) Created page with "'''TDML''' ('''T'''wo '''D'''imensional '''M'''inimalistic '''L'''anguage) is an [[Turning tarpit]] by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] inspired by [[2L]] and [[1L]]. It also is a languge where many commands can function differently in various implementations  ==Specificat
08:32:09  [[Spacebar]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140086&oldid=82942 * PkmnQ * (+98) 
08:32:26  [[Spaced]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140087&oldid=140083 * PkmnQ * (+30) 
08:35:44  [[3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140088&oldid=83118 * PkmnQ * (+10) un-dead end
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08:37:24  [[3]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140089&oldid=140088 * Yayimhere * (-29) deleted TC category becuase maybe with this limitation its not TC
08:38:07  [[TDML]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140090&oldid=140085 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+310) 
08:43:57  [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140091&oldid=138268 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+11) /* 2024 */
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08:58:01  i have something to aks., cant any lambda expression be desrcibed with nested empty lambdas and identity functions?
08:58:08  wait no
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09:12:18  any duplicating term like \x. x x cannot be described like that
09:12:46  yes it could
09:12:54  if you could change names
09:13:00  and the identity function
09:13:03  could gave a input
09:13:07  then you could make it
09:13:51  \x. ((\x. x) x) ((\x. x) x)
09:14:36  that's clearly more than empty lmabdas (const) and identities
09:14:50  yes.
09:14:51  ik
09:14:56  i said
09:14:58  if you allowed
09:15:02  idk
09:15:10  wait no
09:15:24  combinator base K, I is very incomplete
09:15:29  wait
09:15:30  bye
09:15:31  sorry
09:15:33  need to leave
09:15:35  can only make projection functions
09:36:45  [[Number2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140092&oldid=140042 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+68) Rectified two orthographic mistakes and enhanced the 6 command's description anent its lucidity.
09:42:22  [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140093&oldid=137348 * PkmnQ * (+526) 
09:55:40  [[3]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140094&oldid=140089 * PkmnQ * (+588) 
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10:52:32  [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140095&oldid=140060 * PrySigneToFry * (+900) /* I seem to think you're a decent admin */ new section
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11:46:32  [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140096 * PrySigneToFry * (+620) Created page with "ORK: [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again1|]]  1. Drag out the program that has been completely destroyed 
 No, not at all. No, not at all. No, not at all. This is a Raphael. This is a Raphael. Ted Tyrant If, however, no conversion and the deportatio
11:47:28  [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140097&oldid=140032 * PrySigneToFry * (+45) 
11:53:31  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140098&oldid=140034 * PrySigneToFry * (+25) 
11:56:38  [[BubbleLang/Examples]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140099&oldid=139548 * PrySigneToFry * (+470) 
12:01:36  [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140100&oldid=139951 * PrySigneToFry * (+325) 
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12:38:37  [[User talk:Tommyaweosme/archives]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140101&oldid=140075 * Tommyaweosme * (+26) lol u got plans to spam my talk page on october 1?
12:39:23  [[TDML]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140102&oldid=140090 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-77) /* Computational class */
12:40:17  [[3 bits, unshackled]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140103&oldid=140081 * Tommyaweosme * (+9) i dont see the point since only userpages link here but ok i guess you can do this for all those people playing esolanglinks (not wikilinks thats made by the evilest people on earht)
12:41:20  [[3 Bits, 3 Bytes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140104&oldid=131242 * Tommyaweosme * (+25) just making an esolanglink loop
12:46:03  [[~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140105 * Europe2048 * (+3171) Created page with "{{Stub}} {{WIP}} '''~''' is an esolang by [[User:Europe2048]] with uncountable data types.  (note: this will probably become a golfing language)  == SBCS ==  - 0123456789abcdef  0   1   2  !"#$%&'()*+,-./  3 0123456789:;<=>?  4 @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO  5 PQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_  6 `abcd
12:47:47  [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140106&oldid=138261 * Europe2048 * (+27) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
12:48:49  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140107&oldid=140098 * Europe2048 * (+13) 
12:50:37  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140108&oldid=140107 * Europe2048 * (-13) oops, forgot to read the header
13:00:21  [[FROSTWIRE-666]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140109&oldid=139441 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* combinators */
13:01:41  [[FROSTWIRE-666]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140110&oldid=140109 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* combinators */
13:08:12  [[Functioning Mods]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140111 * Yayimhere * (+305) Created page with "'''Functioning Mods''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its a jumble of other esolangs put together for some reason == commands ==  ''F''10 notated as (''F'' w) from [[Jot]]   and  from [[FROSTWIRE-666]]  ` and c from [[Unlambda]]  a from [[Savage O
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13:15:20  [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140112&oldid=139578 * PkmnQ * (+22) un-orphan
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13:32:06  [[User:Yayimhere]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140113&oldid=139853 * Yayimhere * (+23) /* esolangs */
13:34:24  Feedback?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Functioning_Mods
13:35:00  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140114&oldid=140111 * Yayimhere * (+6) 
13:54:24  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140115&oldid=140114 * Yayimhere * (+396) /* commands */
13:54:28  [[Postrado]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140116&oldid=135413 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:54:40  [[Postrado]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140117&oldid=140116 * Ractangle * (-5) /* Deadfish implementation */
13:55:47  [[Postrado]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140118&oldid=140117 * Ractangle * (+5) /* Deadfish implementation */
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14:10:33  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140119&oldid=140115 * Yayimhere * (+14) /* commands */
14:12:16  [[User talk:PrySigneToFry/My Decimal Number]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140120&oldid=138259 * PrySigneToFry * (+673) 
14:13:58  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140121&oldid=140119 * Yayimhere * (+16) 
14:17:29  [[Binary-encoded Minsky machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140122&oldid=121520 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+17) /* Encoding */
14:21:39  [[Talk:By+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140123&oldid=138820 * Catto.4 * (+448) 
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14:43:59  [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again6]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140124&oldid=140096 * MihaiEso * (+46) 
14:50:04  [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140125 * MihaiEso * (+935) Created page with "I made [[Translated ORK/PSTF Again6|this]] WTF? ~~~~  1. Put the already low quality program 
 no good [69] Disable log _out Disable logout Disable saving to d_disk Disable Exiting no [69] OK 
 2. Translate it worse! 
 ModernMT: English 
14:50:21  [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140126&oldid=140097 * MihaiEso * (+47) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:50:29  [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140127&oldid=140126 * MihaiEso * (+0) /* Horribly translated variants */
14:50:39  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140128&oldid=140121 * Yayimhere * (+36) 
14:52:12  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140129&oldid=140128 * Yayimhere * (-47) /* commands */
14:52:18  [[Talk:Disan Count]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140130&oldid=134910 * PrySigneToFry * (+492) /* Disan Count, but prime */ new section
14:59:14  [[BFInfinity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140131&oldid=139954 * PrySigneToFry * (+153) 
15:06:53  [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140132&oldid=135769 * PrySigneToFry * (+80) 
15:07:30  [[~~]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140133&oldid=138910 * Yayimhere * (+48) /* ~~ hexadecimal format */
15:22:18  [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140134 * PrySigneToFry * (+868) Created page with "(XQDFW, or Xithedephou) is designed by PSTF to use another type of picture to show [[]] script.  == Format == Use white square with  to represent print function.  Use a serie of circle to represent memory slot.  Use white square with  to represent input function.  Use  to
15:24:03  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140135&oldid=140108 * PrySigneToFry * (+17) 
15:26:42  [[Bbtos]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140136&oldid=131511 * PrySigneToFry * (+165) 
15:30:55 -!- ski has joined.
15:33:26  hello ski. i like ur username
15:35:43  [[lang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140137&oldid=137564 * PrySigneToFry * (-12) 
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15:36:39  wWwwW: I'm not reading five other pages to understand how a language works if it's supposedly just a combinator basis. Please consider using a standard notation; I don't care which one.
15:36:52  k
15:36:58  i should yea
15:36:59  but then
15:37:06  the concept
15:37:09  will be destroyed
15:37:18  I also still don't understand your goals. But I can guess that you're learning and playing rather than heading towards a specific destination.
15:37:34  yea
15:37:39  If your concept isn't isomorphism-invariant, then it's probably ill-founded.
15:37:41  it was based on like
15:37:46  how i was confused on lazy k
15:37:51  i though it could use
15:37:57  SKI and Unlambda ect.
15:37:59  al together
15:39:37  hello all I'm back and thank you for your previous responses. I wonder if anybody interested in finding a universal Diophantine equation with one unknown since if we have a UDE1: y=f(x) <-> ∃y[U(f,x,y)=0] then all TC languages have a total and TC subset
15:40:20  hlw does Nope have a TC subset???
15:40:21  allo, wWwwW
15:40:32  allo:]
15:43:08  wWwwW :)
15:43:19  hehehe
15:45:28  korvo what do you think ? is there a UDE1 ?
15:45:36  wWwwW: The top of this particular power ceiling is the untyped lambda calculus. There's nothing above that. SKI isn't above that. Unlambda isn't above it either. They're all isomorphic: it's possible to transform one into the other without losing or gaining any functionality.
15:46:17  what message are you answering
15:46:53  Raoof: Probably. But since a TC language without a total subset would have to be *very* strange and I can't imagine it offhand, I'm not sure what we would be showing.
15:47:23  wWwwW: I'm replying to the idea that "SKI and Unlambda together" is a distinct thing from either SKI or Unlambda.
15:47:46  yes but they can still be represnted in lambda calculus
15:47:48  so they are
15:47:53  "compatible"
15:48:30  Ah, okay, I think I see the problem. The identity function is not I, nor is it (\x. x). Those are *terms* in SKI and ULC respectively which *denote* the identity function.
15:48:54  For every term in SKI which denotes a function, there is a ULC term which denotes it too, and vice versa. This is what I mean by isomorphism or equivalence.
15:49:11  k
15:49:18  korvo it also means there is a total and TC language, so we don't need to worry about the halting problem
15:49:47  (*The* identity function is an end in the term category. It usually doesn't show up as a distinct term. Languages like Cammy which have explicit ends are unusual in this way.)
15:50:14  Raoof: Oh, then it's obviously bogus, as TC languages must be able to host non-total programs via emulation.
15:50:16  term?
15:50:36  in this context a term is
15:50:52  "Term" is a shorter word than "expression" which doesn't overlap with the verb "to express", that's all. You'll see both words show up in logic.
15:51:04  I, SKK, SII, etc. are terms of SKI.
15:51:09  oh kk
15:51:15  makes sense
15:56:01  so it don work?
15:56:03  or
15:56:33  the was a problem
15:56:40  so it wont work. right?
15:58:42  I don't know how to restate what I said initially: you combined five different languages without defining them in a single common notation. If you handed me a program in Functioning Mods, I wouldn't know what function it denotes.
15:59:02  oh kk
15:59:10  then i will define them all below the commands
15:59:17  in lambda calculus
16:00:04  korvo why do you want to emulate a non-total program ?
16:00:35  Raoof: Personally? I'm interested in the hardest problems in mathematics. But in general, a TC system ought to be able to host universal emulators of other TC systems, and those don't necessarily halt.
16:01:01  actually what is ` in lambda calculus
16:01:20  and what is c
16:01:23  Parentheses, usually.
16:01:31  wait
16:01:37  lambda calculus has application
16:01:46  so its applicaiton?
16:02:04  To get a working c, you must transform your program to continuation-passing style (CPS). "The continuation" is merely another function when expressed this way.
16:02:14  iirc Unlambda correctly, yes
16:02:18  shit
16:02:20  sorry
16:02:46  `c' is `call-with-current-continuation', no ?
16:02:48  c'? No such file or directory
16:03:09 * ski glares at HackEso
16:03:25  Yeah, c is call/cc.
16:03:41  then ill delete it
16:04:15  The real question is d. Unlambda uses d for ordering, like Haskell's seq. It's very important when *executing* programs on a computer, but largely irrelevant to whether we can *express* a function with a program.
16:04:32  `delay' ?
16:04:34  delay'? No such file or directory
16:04:44  so x`y applies x to y?
16:04:54  Might have been "delay", maybe "deferred" which is an uncommon name for the promise monad.
16:05:14  Isn't it `xy to apply x to y? I'm going from memory right now.
16:05:28  istr it's prefix, yes
16:05:29  it would make *sense*
16:05:32  ok
16:05:34  YES
16:05:48  (or, polish notation, if you prefer)
16:06:03  idc
16:06:05  lol
16:06:29  When you start to write parsers, you'll care.
16:06:44  hehehe
16:07:02  idc about if you call it polish or prefix
16:07:29 * ski polishes pegleg
16:08:59  It's called "Polish" because otherwise most folks would have to look up how to spell Łukasiewicz like I just did.
16:09:40  ("woo-KAH-seh-vitch", IIUC)
16:09:51  hehehehe
16:15:53  [[Savage Operator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140138&oldid=139895 * Yayimhere * (-5) /* operators */
16:16:06  [[Savage Operator]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140139&oldid=140138 * Yayimhere * (-48) /* operators */
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16:21:53  korvo maybe I shouldn't have used TC, I meant that if we have a UDE1 then there is a language that can compute all total computable functions and by enforcing a convention we can eliminate the halting problem in all TC languages and also have a decision algorithm for Hilbert's 10th problem, I know it's proven undecidable but if there is UDE1 then
16:21:54  that contradict their theorem. maybe you see that as a proof that there is no UDE1 ?
16:24:26  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140140&oldid=140129 * Yayimhere * (+403) /* commands */
16:24:29  DONE
16:27:07  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140141&oldid=140140 * Yayimhere * (+1) /* commands */
16:27:30  HELL YEA
16:27:37  it works now right korvo
16:28:33  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140142&oldid=140141 * Yayimhere * (-28) /* commands */
16:33:00  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140143&oldid=140142 * Yayimhere * (+7) /* commands */
16:33:54  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140144&oldid=140143 * Yayimhere * (+3) 
16:34:11  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140145&oldid=140144 * Yayimhere * (+2) /* commands */
16:35:24  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140146&oldid=140145 * Yayimhere * (+0) /* commands */
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16:40:29  wWwwW: Nice.
16:40:44  thx!
16:40:49  Raoof: Yeah, if it's that tight, then I'd assume UDE1 doesn't exist.
16:41:29  Basically anything that pushes against Lawvere's fixed-point theorem, which has Turing's Halting as a special case, is likely bogus.
16:42:34  I've spent far too many words on this. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/a/113701/48431 is a recent situation where I ripped apart a crank because they wouldn't shut up about Gödel.
16:42:56  Raoof: I'm not saying you're a crank BTW. I'm just saying that there is a *lot* of evidence and proof here.
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16:45:15  think its tc when you look at it?
16:52:06  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140147&oldid=140146 * Yayimhere * (+144) /* commands */
16:52:59  It's clearly TC because it has S and K.
16:53:16  ?
16:53:31  theyre included for the
16:53:32  umm
16:53:34  lambdas
16:53:36  It has S and K, therefore it has SII(SII), therefore not every term has a normal form.
16:54:05  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140148&oldid=140147 * Yayimhere * (+26) /* commands */
16:54:12  made it clear
16:54:20  thank you for responses. bye for now
16:54:25 -!- Raoof has quit (Quit: Client closed).
16:54:34  bye!!
16:55:38  wWwwW: What's your current goal? To not be TC?
16:55:46  no
16:55:52  just to try to
16:55:58  learn cross esolang stuff
16:57:37  like
16:57:46  how esolangs can interact with each other
16:58:46  They don't, usually. Let L and K be languages, and let S be some semantics. S is what we actually want to study; like, S is a collection of functions. L and K are merely syntax for denoting functions in S.
16:59:07  yea
16:59:09  ik
16:59:11  but
16:59:12  some do
16:59:21  since they are defined in lambda calculus
16:59:54  Then what we usually care about is *compiling* L to K or vice versa. Let L -> S be an interpretation of L in S; it's a way of assigning a function to each term of L. Then we want something L -> K, sending terms of L to terms of K, such that we induce another interpretation K -> S.
17:00:17  yea
17:00:31  Yes, you're working with the situation where L is SKI, K is ULC, and S is some sort of computable functions.
17:00:44  yes
17:00:48  well
17:00:50  we also have
17:00:59  What I'm trying to point out is that a transformation from one language to another doesn't imply that the languages somehow work together or fit together.
17:01:08  true
17:01:18  but when they are made and evaluated with the exact same system
17:01:20  it works
17:01:24  but yea
17:01:26  not always
17:02:13  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140149&oldid=140148 * Yayimhere * (+33) /* commands */
17:02:34  No, not even then. Let S be the standard amd64 semantics for hardware. There are several languages which compile to it in incompatible ways, say C, Python, Haskell, Prolog, and Scheme.
17:02:53  yes
17:02:59  but even the formatting is the same
17:03:01  even
17:03:16  they have been written in the same system
17:03:24  Or, more pedantically, let K be amd64 assembly language and let S be the hardware behavior. Then these languages build different setups in K; some of them have heaps, some have GCs, some have stacks, some have continuations.
17:04:00  yes
17:04:03  i understand
17:04:28  [[User:TheCanon2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140150&oldid=138067 * TheCanon2 * (+40) Added Slide rule completeness
17:12:23  Anyway, given all that, it's quite nice that ULC and SKI are isomorphic. It means that, often, we *don't care* whether a basis is fancy; we only care whether it has S and K, or Iota, or Jot, or Meredith's axiom, or BCKW, or etc.
17:12:44  yea
17:22:03  [[Slide-rule completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140151 * TheCanon2 * (+466) Created page with "A machine is '''slide rule-complete''' if said machine can perform any operation that can be simulated by a slide rule of arbitrary length with arbitrary markings. ==Slide rule machine== A slide rule machine is an automaton that operates by moving a sli
17:32:26 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
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17:39:47  [[Cree sharp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140152 * Yayimhere * (+18) Redirected page to [[CREE]]
17:40:17  [[Cree sharp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140153&oldid=140152 * Yayimhere * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[CREE]] to [[Cree]]
17:46:57  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140154&oldid=140149 * Yayimhere * (+0) 
17:47:35  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140155&oldid=140154 * Yayimhere * (+29) 
17:47:55  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140156&oldid=140155 * Yayimhere * (+14) /* commands */
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17:59:23  so...ummmmm...wat u guys think?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turtle_just_want_to_dig
18:02:13  [[ACL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140157&oldid=65317 * Ractangle * (+23) /* Collatz sequence */
18:23:01  [[APL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140158&oldid=81413 * Yayimhere * (-4) its not the J they are thinking about. its not my J
18:24:08  [[Timeline of golfing languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140159&oldid=121092 * Yayimhere * (-3) /* 2015 */ also not their J its my J
18:24:55  [[Gs2]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140160&oldid=69707 * Yayimhere * (-4) still not that J
18:32:02  wWwwW: Have you considered that perhaps *your* language should be moved? J is plenty esoteric and I would expect the page [[J]] to have a stub for it, not for yours.
18:32:18  true
18:32:26  not rn atleast
18:32:30  im to tired
18:32:33  maybe jiust to like
18:32:38  J (Yayimhere)
18:32:55  It's not just you. [[E]] is another good example.
18:33:17  yes
18:33:20  but like still
18:33:24  Yes, it was shitty of earlier proglang designers to use single-letter names. No, we aren't going to ignore earlier proglangs, especially when they are as influential as E or J.
18:33:56  but then why not move it to "J (Yayimhere)"
18:33:59  Admittedly this is my perspective, and I only make approximately one new language every five years.
18:33:59  like usually
18:40:06  wWwwW: How does Turtle just want to dig halt?
18:40:22  going of bounds of the program
18:40:25  as mentioned
18:41:23  Can they dig down forever?
18:41:33  yes
18:41:36  with BUG
18:41:37  cuz bug
18:41:41  doesnt count
18:41:47  it expands border
18:41:48  thats how
18:42:08  ñ
18:42:08  ===
18:42:09  # #
18:42:09   õ
18:42:10  works
18:42:11  Okay. So halting has to be from the left and right bounds, not digging to a maximum depth?
18:42:19  no
18:42:25  but the bug expands border
18:42:34  in other words
18:42:47  going to rows or lines that no commands are on
18:43:16  collumn
18:44:21  [[Turtle just want to dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140161&oldid=139758 * Yayimhere * (+36) /* how it works */
18:46:22  [[Turtle just want to dig]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140162&oldid=140161 * Yayimhere * (+98) /* examples */
18:50:30  korvo: yeah, except for C, I usually use the more qualified names, like jsoftware, digitalmars D, Vttoth's W
18:50:52  C is special enough that I usually don't have to say K&R C or anything like that
18:57:10  b_jonas: Yep, totally fair. Context matters for me, and editing [[APL]] or [[Timeline of golfing languages]] triggered my sense of relevance.
18:57:28  sorry
18:57:37  for doing it
18:57:57  Also, here's another opinion from Mr. Five Years: language names should be puns. And not just mild puns, but three-way puns which require knowledge of computing history and something else too.
18:58:20  wWwwW: No worries. You're not in trouble, although I do hope that you learn something about history of APL from this.
18:58:30  oh i do
18:58:31  i think
18:58:36  sure, there are other disambiguations, like the APL-like J
18:59:13  i was about to say something
18:59:15  oh yea
18:59:22  korvo: i cant do puns:]
18:59:34  Like, [[Cammy]] is a pun on "CAM-E", a flavor of E using the Categorial Abstract Machine; it's technically named after *Camellia* the tea tree, though. (A "T-tree", a typed tree.)
19:00:24  wWwwW: Even in your native language? They don't have to be English puns; a fun example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qalb_(programming_language)
19:00:59  oh
19:01:06  danish puns are weird tho...
19:01:09  like
19:01:12  to be fair I am also bad at naming and have used very generic names for languages or other programs that I'm writing
19:01:13  they get rlly weird
19:01:27  i usually do random on wikidate until i find a cool name
19:01:35  [[Template:Wip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140163&oldid=106057 * Tommyaweosme * (+155) 
19:01:50  thats how i got A Question of Protocol
19:01:52  [[Befunge/Constants]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140164 * Tommyaweosme * (+555) incomplete wip
19:01:54  and Bijection
19:02:08  *wikidata
19:02:39  ok lemme try
19:02:43  Consider C's successors. They're all puns: D uses the alphabet, C++ uses C itself, C♯ uses a musical alphabet, Obj-C is a pun on "objective", E is a reaction to both C and D, etc.
19:02:59  ik about C# thing
19:03:00  cuz
19:03:04  i like music lol
19:03:11  pun for Functioning Mods
19:03:13  i will try
19:03:27  isn't E like a reaction to Erlang or something?
19:03:47  Go, Dart, and Swift are all puns on going fast; Go kind of gave up trying, but Dart and Swift pun pub darts and birds respectively.
19:05:17  E is mostly a reaction to Oak winning the Java competition. Elm is another alternative to Oak, having almost nothing in common with E other than being isolated and confined for totally different reasons.
19:05:36  brugtiohell
19:05:40  frick
19:05:46  dis aint even a pun i feel like
19:05:57  Like, the thesis which introduces E spends a lot of time explaining how Java can't safely load untrusted code, while E can do it easily.
19:06:08  its a combinational of functionel, brug, and hell
19:06:29  wWwwW: Nice!
19:06:33  thx
19:06:37  its a hell to use
19:06:44  brug is use in danish
19:06:47  and it uses functions
19:07:12  Good pun, well done.
19:07:21  thx:)!
19:07:39  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140165&oldid=140156 * Yayimhere * (-1360) Blanked the page
19:08:16  [[Brugtiohell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140166 * Yayimhere * (+1394) Created page with "'''Brugtiohell''' is a esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. its a jumble of other esolangs put together for some reason == commands == these are the commands of Brugtiohell:  ''x''10, notated as E''x'', and 1, from [[Jot]]    , and , from [[FROSTWIRE-666]]    ` 
19:08:21  moved it
19:08:23  I'll never beat dash's name for our language, "Monte". (I guess I should stub it?) Monte is Python-flavored E, it's a mountain of a language, and it's homophone with {manti}, Lojban for "ant".
19:09:33  [[Brugtiohell]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140167&oldid=140166 * Yayimhere * (+86) 
19:10:33  BUT is also a joke ig
19:10:35  since its like
19:10:43  BUT I DONT WANNA USE IT!!!!
19:12:52  I'm going to create a couple pages and a category, I guess. I'm also considering moving [[E]] to something like [[E (eeEee)]] given its low number of incoming links.
19:13:02  yes
19:13:13  I could use [[E (joke)]] instead, but that's not nearly as funny of a URL.
19:13:23  yes
19:13:40  the esolang community is the least mean one iver ever been in
19:13:49  [[E (disambiguation page)]] ? :-)
19:13:58  yes plz
19:14:01  :]
19:14:06  :-]
19:14:08  well no
19:14:10  that would be
19:14:37  :=]
19:18:53  how would you add information to this???: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki/pedia/.org
19:22:00  The other day, I was thinking about making an esolang where programs are encoded as Git repos. Of course, I'm not the first to think of that: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Legit
19:22:31  when you get an idea but its taken
19:22:33  you feel bad
19:22:35  ._.
19:23:00  is APL's name a joke or pun
19:23:32  [[Brainfuck algorithms]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140168&oldid=139691 * Tommyaweosme * (+93) 
19:24:21  JAA: In PLT and PLDI, there's really only one E. I'll admit that knowledge of E is limited; we consider it something of a shibboleth for awareness of actors, capabilities, etc.
19:25:48  bye
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19:26:00  JAA: Oh, also, [[Cammy/Hives]] isn't well-done, but it sketches how to encode Cammy programs as git objects.
19:26:04  wWwwW: APL is an abbreviation of "A programming language", the title of an original article that proposed the precursor for it or something like that. It's *weird* because the late Ken Iverson was actually *good* at naming things, and used inventive original names for some APL constructs, but somehow he failed that one naming check.
19:26:54  korvo: I saw that one, too, yeah.
19:27:58  The main advantage of my encoding is that duplicate actions don't take up extra space. But there's some weaknesses, like git's lack of lists.
19:28:05  and then went with that theme and named an APL variant J, so now we have to disambiguate it as APL-like J, or Jsoftware J, or Iverson's J, or IJS, and somehow even infected Arthur Whitney to create an APL-like language called K
19:34:29  [[User:Tommyaweosme/brainfuck turing completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140169 * Tommyaweosme * (+791) Created page with "naw jk this is every logic gate in brainfuck  PUT SOME MORE IN THE COMMENT SECTION BELOW, AND I'LL PICK MY FAVORITES ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF MORTY ON THE TALK PAGE == some terms ==  a-z are inputs (, for 0/1)  A-Z 
19:44:05  [[Functioning Mods]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140170&oldid=140165 * Ractangle * (+1360) why do you want to remove the page tho
19:45:10  [[Monte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140171 * Corbin * (+1701) Stub one of my projects. Ask me anything on the talk page; I'm basically the only person to write serious amounts of Monte.
19:46:44  [[Y/Y]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140172&oldid=139851 * Ractangle * (+33) /* Syntax */
19:49:16  [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Corbin *  moved [[E]] to [[E (eeEee)]]: Moving a joke to a funnier name in order to document the much-more-well-known language with the same name.
19:49:16  [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Corbin *  moved [[Talk:E]] to [[Talk:E (eeEee)]]: Moving a joke to a funnier name in order to document the much-more-well-known language with the same name.
19:50:38  [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140177&oldid=103564 * Corbin * (+8) Inline a post-move redirect.
19:51:22  [[E++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140178&oldid=139704 * Corbin * (+8) Inline a post-move redirect.
20:11:16  [[E]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140179&oldid=140174 * Corbin * (+2041) Stub an important language.
20:17:42  [[E]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140180&oldid=140179 * Corbin * (+468) Explain how to run E-on-Java. And yes, I just tested this.
20:17:53  [[Borsch]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140181&oldid=107546 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+8) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/107546|107546]] by [[Special:Contributions/Andriy|Andriy]] ([[User talk:Andriy|talk]])
20:19:09  [[Talk:E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140182&oldid=140176 * Corbin * (+98) There used to be an incorrect redirect here.
20:20:03  [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140183&oldid=140180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) Distinguish confusion, add categories
20:20:54  [[E (eeEee)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140184&oldid=140173 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-33) Change to wikilink
20:21:39  Big thanks to PSDW as always. They are so much quicker than me; I wonder what kinds of tooling they use.
20:24:17  [[Spaced]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140185&oldid=140087 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) Categories
20:28:08  [[Spacebar]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140186&oldid=140086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+275) Header, interpreter, category
20:28:44  [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140187&oldid=77566 * Corbin * (-18) Bluelink E.
20:29:26  [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140188&oldid=106403 * Corbin * (-18) Bluelink E.
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20:32:10  [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140189&oldid=140183 * Corbin * (+181) Cite MarkM's thesis, as is tradition.
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20:38:49  [[Monte]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140190&oldid=140171 * Corbin * (+603) Explain how to run Typhon. Just tested this too.
20:47:12  [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140191&oldid=139826 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* Files */ Clarifications
20:47:20  b_jonas: the APL-like J is the only one I know of – what are the others?
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20:48:16  [[Monte]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140192&oldid=140190 * Corbin * (+650) Mint. Mint. Mint! Mint! MINT! MINT! MINT!
20:51:20  ais523: other what? other languages named J? I don't think there's any notable one unless you look at esowiki which has lots of badly named languages, including https://esolangs.org/wiki/J
20:51:35  ah, OK
20:51:51  actually I was reminded of the various computational models that are named after greek letters
20:51:55  lambda calculus, pi calculus, etc.
20:52:03  I think there are quite a lot of those, and don't know if there are any duplicates
20:52:03  [[Brugtiohell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140193&oldid=140167 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Categories
20:53:18  [[Functioning Mods]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140194&oldid=140170 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1335) Apparent name change
20:53:59  [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140195&oldid=139959 * Corbin * (+346) /* Abstract algebraic languages */ Not why I came over here, but hey, more evidence isn't bad.
20:54:00  [[JSFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140196&oldid=139253 * Ais523 * (+312) external resource  the 5-character JSFuck derivative
20:54:36  korvo: are you sure that BF isn't a concatenative language?
20:57:31  thinking about it, in most languages, concatenation is either application or composition; but application isn't associative, so if it forms a monoid it's probably going to be composition
21:00:43  [[Constant]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140197&oldid=134800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) See also
21:01:52  [[Befunge/Constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140198&oldid=140164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Stub, category
21:02:51  that's why we name them after animals, there's more choices for animals than for letters in the alphabet, so we have alligator calculus and bird sociology
21:05:34  [[Befunge/Constants]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140199&oldid=140198 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+161) BefunRep
21:07:37  ais523: I mean, yes, I'd say that the classic syntax is concatenative, but I'm also not going to push the point if folks don't see it that way.
21:08:38  The "every language has composition, every language is concatenative" meme is fun but also a little reductive. Like, the composition from concatenating e.g. Python programs is very fancy and requires a trip up to native type theory: dependent types, category of presheaves, category of contexts, the whole nine yards.
21:09:08  Composition in BF still requires forgetting where we started. Kind of like turning the tape into an affine space.
21:09:13  right, as the languages get more complex you reach a point where it isn't clear whether the definitions apply or how, but I'm OK wth that
21:09:45  [[6 bytes of useless element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140200&oldid=140071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+177) Categories
21:09:53  oh, I was viewing BF as composition of functions from (tape, pointer) pairs to (tape, pointer) pairs
21:10:22  Fortunately native type theory is as hard as it gets. The authors of the paper were careful to make it work over any first-order rewritable syntax. But yeah, it's a trip. Two trips if you don't know topoi.
21:10:23  although of course, you can remove the need to specify the pointer by keeping it in one place and moving the tape instead (sort-of like how Turing machines were initially envisaged)
21:11:41  that reminds me, I found a really eso-interesting encoding of a list in functional languages: [a, b, c, d] is encoded as \f.((((f a) b) c) d)
21:12:13  this is really elegant in some ways but really awkward in other ways – it feels like a good fit for Unlambda (in the sense of "this initially looks normal but you have to do really weird things to deal with it"
21:12:20  Mm, yeah. That would work too. That's kind of like a comonadic approach, since the tape and pointers are like a context from which you could draw the next value (to test at the next bracket, I guess?)
21:12:40  )
21:13:03  Ha, yeah! Those are fun examples of hyperfunctions. I *hate* these, but you can do stuff like eat an indefinite number of arguments.
21:14:08  yes, doing that with an infinite list gets weird quickly
21:14:15  doing it with a finite list is also weird, but in a different way
21:15:22  Isn't that just the Church encoding for tuples when it's finite? Or maybe I'm missing something.
21:16:10  [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140201&oldid=140195 * Corbin * (+1457) /* Capability-aware languages */ new section
21:16:10  ais523: ouch. that's not a convenient encoding because it's hard to know where the list ends
21:16:56  but yes, it's cursed in exactly the way that unlambda encourages
21:17:46  b_jonas: I've done some experimentation into writing programs that use it – call/cc seems to help a lot
21:18:13  the "it's hard to know where the list ends" isn't the most cursed thing about it, trying to deal with two different lists at once is harder
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21:21:36  (assuming that you just deal with the heads of the list rather than iterating the whole thing every time)
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21:30:08  [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140202&oldid=140201 * Corbin * (+589) /* Actor languages */ new section
21:34:01  [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140203&oldid=140202 * Ais523 * (+384) /* Actor languages */ are there enough esolangs like that?
21:38:13  ais523: Not meta, just trying to be efficient: Have you seen https://webperso.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf before?
21:39:05  no
21:40:12  Ah, okay. This thing's super-popular in PLT/PLDI circles, so I guess it's Lucky 10000. I am *very* flexible with how we categorize stuff; I suggested actors because it might fill the gaps WRT our current categories for computational models.
21:40:50  fwiw I think there are many combinations not considered on that chart, e.g. languages which have state but don't have an equivalent of a function call/return
21:41:11  Oh yeah, the chart suffers from the gentle tyrant.
21:41:16  like the many languages where the only control flow is "implicit loop around program" + sometimes a conditional skip
21:41:44  (https://lobste.rs/s/alzaim/thoughts_on_gentle_tyranny_call_return is a fun summary of the discourse around "tyranny of call/return")
21:42:09  [[Baz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140204&oldid=77943 * Ractangle * (+23) 
21:42:33  and of course But Is It Art? doesn't fit anywhere on the chart, but then it was meant to serve as a counterexample to a wide range of statements about programming languages, so that's not surprising
21:44:45  Isn't that concurrent CSP?
21:45:12  [[Beefydie]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140205&oldid=133804 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Impossible Programs */
21:45:24  korvo: it's missing many things required by arrows leading to it, though
21:45:34  Like, I could imagine using a CHR language (Constraint Handling Rules, another Lucky 10000, lets you add CSP to imperative languages) to express But Is It Art?
21:45:37  you could implement it in a constraint-solving language but not vicee versa
21:45:54  Oh, that doesn't matter. The paradigms aren't monotone or heritable in that way.
21:46:10  hmm, the chart seems to imply that they are
21:46:55  Have you heard of absorb vs reify? The chart is expressing how intepreters could choose to absorb certain concepts. An interpreter could, of course, reify just about everything; but folks typically take shortcuts.
21:47:39  I've heard of a lot of definitions along those lines, but haven't got a good understanding of which word represents which concept
21:48:02  in particular, I think I've seen "reify" used lots of times with lots of different meanings, most of which are incorrect, but it has made it hard to work out what the correct meaning is
21:48:54  but, e.g., BIIA? has no concept of unification, which seems fairly core to typical declarative logic languages
21:49:23  In this context, absorbing just means that the interpreter doesn't implement some facet of the interpreted language. Instead, the interpreter's host language provides that facet. Common examples are call/return, exceptions, FFI.
21:49:57  And reifying is what we normally get to do instead. Make a struct, make an enum, make some flags, make a state machine.
21:50:39  is absorbing here related to metacircular evaluation? (although not the same, because it's not a self-interpreter)
21:50:45  [[Bfbf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140206&oldid=98866 * Ractangle * (+24) /* Implementations */
21:50:59  yeah, it's like programming only with if blocks and numeric for blocks, you can't exit a loop early
21:51:10  Yeah! Or at least it comes up a lot in that context. Because anything absorbed has to be implemented at the "bottom" rather than at some "layer" of the stack.
21:51:21  that's why basic or fortran needs a while or a goto
21:51:45  b_jonas: don't many basics let you exit a for loop early by assigning to the loop variable?
21:51:56  or late, I guess
21:52:23  now I am wondering whether Perl invented the redo; control structure or whether it has predecessors
21:53:18  ais523: er, yeah, you can probably do that
21:55:08  ais523: Okay, so my brain is not happy with me, but I think that BIIA? allows expressing concurrent CSP with the tricky caveat that tiles can appear *more than once* in the witness.
21:55:10  now I am thinking about how weird C's for loops are
21:55:52  korvo: well, tiles have to be able to appear more than once, there are finitely many tiles but the language is TC, so it has to get the infinite storage somehow
21:55:52  The concurrency comes from the multiple possible widths for witnesses. The constraints are expressed vertically, giving a free temporal logic (whether you asked for it or not). Tiles have to be reusable for multiset semantics to work.
21:56:39  ais523: of course it has predecessors! C has three of the four loop control words: goto, break, continue. perl renames break to last and continue to next and realizes that the fourth one is missing and names it redo so all four have four-letter keywords. ruby kind of ruins the four-letter theme by naming one "retry" instead of "goto", but has the innovation where all four work on a method call with a 
21:56:46  smalltalk-like block argument, such that inside the block, redo/next is a local jump to the beginning or end of that block, while retry/last jumps out of the method call.
21:57:15  from my point of view, concurrency is something that acts at a different level from BIIA? – the language doesn't specify how the search is done
21:57:44  ais523: Hm, maybe I don't grok yet. BIIA? is context-free in terms of decomposing the input into tiles, right? What's TC is the language accepted by an arbitrary BIIA? program. Or does the original input matter too?
21:57:48  although I have noticed that for search-based declarative languages, breadth-first search and depth-first search give observably different results and both are useful in different contexts
21:58:20  korvo: so the program is made up of the tiles, and the interpreter tries to assemble them into a rectangle, potentially using tiles more than once
21:58:39  [[Bitcoin]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140207&oldid=139208 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Examples */
21:58:43  this is a TC operation even if you don't have input and ouptut
21:59:03  [[Bitcoin]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140208&oldid=140207 * Ractangle * (+54) /* Examples */
21:59:41  also perl allows you to label all four control statements, which is much less error-prone than using a number for how many levels to break like dc or intercal do. sadly perl makes the mistake of making the labels dynamic local instead of lexical my, whereas ruby's retry/last is lexical but only works on one level, which is why I aim for the best combination in the esoteric python extension that I 
21:59:47  proposed, where you can break out from any depth with a lexically local loop label
22:00:06  when you do have input and output, you can define an interpreter for a TC language in BIIA, but the TCness doesn't really come from the I/O, it's just being used to guide something that was TC anyway
22:00:37  ais523: Okay, yeah. So I'd suggest that the concurrency required for concurrent CSP is here; in addition to a monotone database which all candidates satisfy, there's one thread for each possible candidate not yet falsified, and they aren't monotone.
22:01:12  I observed many years ago that threading and backtracking are quite similar in nature – the primary difference is that backtracking has a defined evaluation order
22:01:17  ais523: how would it work if TCness came from IO? do you just mean like a CPU where the run button is broken so you can only run programs by mashing on the single-step button?
22:01:39  b_jonas: that's an interesting question, and I've seen plenty of degenerate examples but no interesting ones
22:01:45  That monotonicity is driven by the input data. As input arrives, a good searcher will rule out anything which doesn't fit it. If a lot of data is coming in, a good searcher will spend most of its time tessellating with regard to that input data.
22:02:07  there are quite a few language subsets that are able to operate on nontrivial data structures but not to create one in scratch, so they need to take one from the input to get started
22:03:04  I guess you could also do it with finite control where there are buttons for each state of the finite state program, and each button only does anything if it corresponds to the next step to be executed, which isn't really interesting, though it can get annoying if it only works if it's the only button pressed
22:04:12  there's also that Malbolge extension which has an unoutput operation that reads and removes its own output, in order to provide infinite storage, although I've probably forgotten the details because that sounds ilke a PDA rather than a TC language
22:04:13  it would be even more annoying if there's a "DO" and a "PLEASE" button but the computer aborts if the ratio of your mashing speed between the two don't remain between bounds of 1/5 and 1/3
22:04:25  (except for the first few presses where that's impossible)
22:04:30  ais523: But I will grant you that I have no clue how to *encode* a given CSP problem onto BIIA? I think it only makes sense for a fairly weird family of problems. Because tiles have to physically connect their extents, it seems like the input data would need to be encoded to have a lot of temporal redundancy.
22:05:55  Like, perhaps n letters of data need to be encoded into an n-by-n matrix in order to be recognized, and perhaps n needs to be rounded up to the nearest prime if you don't want aliasing.
22:06:04  so I think the way you do it is to have most of the tiles blank, with only a few tiles at the top (or left) of the program storing the input
22:06:15  oh, and then there's the languages that require printing a character as output after every step or every loop iteration, like it has a trace feature that you can't turn off, so you can only run programs if you have enough blank printing paper or paper tape
22:07:24  something I came up with a while ago was a language where it mattered whether or not a function did the same thing in two different concepts, and the way that was determined was by checking to see if the function produced the same output (in the sense of stdio/logfile output, not in the sense of the return value)
22:07:47  but the idea didn't fit into a full language the way I wanted it to
22:07:57  *the same thing in two different contexts
22:10:44  ais523: Anyway, lemme reveal my intuition. I used to room with a former world-leaderboard Tetris player. Tetris pieces come in "bags" for fairness: you're guaranteed to get one of a relatively small number of piece orderings, every time.
22:11:18  So a big deal a few years ago was memorizing the "full clears" for two bags, three bags, etc. A full clear is when, at the end of a bag, the pieces all form a perfect rectangle and vanish.
22:12:13  I guess there are languages that are TC but must fill some sort of memory space with time and can never erase memory: BIIA, that restricted brainfuck that can only change cells from 0 to 1, 3SP (if it's TC), the I/D machine, the idealized 19th century mathematician with paper and quill and ink and wastebasket
22:12:36  was this before or after the "perfect Tetris algorithm" was discovered that would necessarily work for any piece sequence that was generated using the bag rules?
22:12:50  (although, I think most world-record Tetris players don't use it)
22:12:54  BIIA? therefore implements a delightfully natural question for Tetris players, particularly if your implementation prints witnesses and finds multiples.
22:13:50  korvo: BIIA lets you arbitrarily repeat tiles in any proportion. Tetris doesn't.
22:14:05  with Tetris you're forced to the proportion that the game gives you
22:14:15  I think that you're thinking of the two-bag discoveries, in like 2021.
22:14:21  b_jonas: those are only filling memory from a certain point of view, e.g. the I/D machine TCness proof effectively emulates two queues in memory, but one of them is a bit bucket and never read, and the other one can expand and shrink like a normal queue
22:14:30  b_jonas: One sec, but that's an advantage.
22:14:36  that's why in Tetris you can't survive on alternating S and Z pieces, but in BIIA you can by just filling 6 columns with S and 4 columns with Z
22:14:58  b_jonas: although of course that doesn't actually get the corners of the rectangle right
22:15:33  ais523: yes the goal there isn't full clear but not topping out if full lines are removed
22:15:46  it's proven that you can't do that with alternating S and Z
22:16:02  I thought the specific impossible pattern was a long series of S, followed by a long series of Z, alternating indefinitely
22:16:07  rather than just one S followed by one Z
22:16:40  there have to be enough to prevent you just putting the Ss in a stack and then putting the Zs in another stack
22:18:23  no, I believe it's any series of S and Z at a 1:1 ratio. the only way to not leave holes is to put only S in some two-column fifths of the board and only Z in other two-column fifths of the board. if you change the pattern by placing an S or Z horizontally, or vertically but not aligned to the fifths, or change from S to Z, then you get a hole that you can't clear without leaving just as many holes.
22:19:20  OK, because the board is 10 columns wide
22:19:21  one S then one Z then one S then one Z repeating is already impossible
22:19:27  yes, the board is 10 columns wide
22:19:42  my OS came with a Tetris-like game, but the scoring is very different and it makes the game play very differently
22:19:47  the height is at least 20 tall but the exact height doesn't matter, nor the rule of what exactly counts as topping off
22:20:36  the board appears to be 20×10, and the pieces seem to be selected entirely at random (not with a bag system)
22:21:21  yes, that's old style tetris like NES tetris. very different from modern tetris games, but both styles have an active community playing them
22:21:27  but the scoring system gives a huge number of points when the bottom line is cleared, and the rest hardly matter by comparison – so to score a lot you need to repeatedly get singles at the bottom
22:21:50  (especially because the speed of the pieces falling depend on how many lines you have cleared)
22:21:50  wait, *singles* at the bottom specifically?
22:22:05  so even a clean tetris at the bottom four rows doesn't count?
22:22:15  if you clear the bottom 4, that doesn't score much more (maybe not any more) than clearing the bottom 1
22:22:22  but it takes you 4 times closer to the point at which pieces fall faster
22:22:46  that's innovative, I hadn't heard of that scoring system
22:23:42  I knew there are different scoring systems, in particular there are ones that don't reward you at all for multiple lines, and ones that really push you to tetrises and multiples
22:24:06  the latter is the most common
22:24:19  but I knew the former also exists, they just want you to survive for long
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22:52:37  b_jonas: Okay, sorry, there was food. There's multiple common board widths (and homebrew boards), so we want a search over all widths. We can constrain it by adding a dedicated horizontal sync character.
22:54:01  I like the point about ragged boards and S and Z. We can generalize the search by adding e.g. a fill character that indicates where the board is already occupied, and a 1×1 fill tile.
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