# lit. The class Figure, succession of Proletariat # in dongbei, Proletariat is logically t
> 1727259716 963672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140691&oldid=122173 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+283) 10/* Semi-serious language list */ new section
> 1727259748 658968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interpret Esolangs Online14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140692&oldid=140674 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10/* Introduction */  Wizzcake and Wizzcake+ are added
> 1727259753 960491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140693&oldid=140689 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+65) 10/* Syntax */
> 1727259762 441439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140694&oldid=140693 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+5) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1727259783 389019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interpret Esolangs Online14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140695&oldid=140692 5* 03None1 5* (-52) 10/* Introduction */
> 1727259906 49521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140696&oldid=140677 5* 03None1 5* (+35) 10/* My Implementations */
> 1727260091 431821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140697&oldid=139416 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+186) 10/* CATEGORIES */
> 1727260108 146595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140698&oldid=140697 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* See also */
< 1727260224 787992 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1727260320 178396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lenum14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140699&oldid=140684 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+0) 10/* Implementation */ fix code
> 1727260776 496865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Obscure14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140700 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+1249) 10NOTE: i got permission from i_eat_coffee in order to make this article (src: https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/8152004/)
< 1727260795 319253 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.234 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8
> 1727260851 710460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DifferentDance814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140701&oldid=140656 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+45) 10
< 1727261144 835382 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1727261187 225709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140702&oldid=140694 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10/* Syntax */
> 1727261227 634065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140703&oldid=140702 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10/* Examples */
< 1727261635 320121 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.234 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1727261672 391696 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the channel logs website apparently has the usual problem
< 1727261798 622565 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh.
< 1727261805 605552 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should put an alert on it.
< 1727261875 58830 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :In fact, now that I think of it, I do already have a HTTP black-box probe on it, but it's pointed at the / path, which *used* to work, but after the Libera move it's now served by nginx (since it's a static page) and not the log-server, so it's stopped working.
< 1727261907 790642 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It should have the courtesy of breaking when I'm not at work and could justify spending the time to debug it.
> 1727262102 844845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lenum14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140704&oldid=140699 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+105) 10/* Examples */ How did i forget the truth machine
< 1727262368 330282 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.234 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8
> 1727263626 640296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140705&oldid=140682 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10/* B */
> 1727263637 14860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140706&oldid=140705 5* 03None1 5* (+16) 10/* F */
> 1727263784 280048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140707&oldid=140691 5* 03None1 5* (+486) 10/* Semi-serious language list */
> 1727263799 620563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140708&oldid=140706 5* 03None1 5* (-63) 10/* Remove this section when languages are added */
> 1727263823 371419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140709&oldid=140708 5* 03None1 5* (+15) 10/* C */
< 1727263879 806059 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, that's a fun way to make a test false pass
< 1727264030 474575 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1727264143 943962 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :WHAT THE HECK? this code works if I pass a constant to this function but not if I pass a variable with the same value? what's wrong with referential transparentiality these days?
< 1727264277 59246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sounds fun
< 1727264312 434104 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you didn't specify a language; could it be something silly like a type mismatch?)
< 1727264332 630676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::t 1
< 1727264333 752281 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :Num p => p
< 1727264466 328302 :fowl!~fowl@user/fowl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1727264509 931956 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's VBA, so it can be because the function takes that argument by reference, even though it doesn't make sense in context to change it. further, VBA has this stupid complication where you normally assign a variable using Let, except you assign an object to a variable with Set, and if you Let to a variable that already contains an object then it
< 1727264510 431903 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't assign but just call a magic method in that object, and I have no idea how the heck you're supposed to reset a variable to where it doesn't contain an object
< 1727264699 318943 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1727264699 423687 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.200.190 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1727264799 589958 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.234 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1727265063 285036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brainflop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140710&oldid=140635 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+123) 10
> 1727265066 287765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140711 5* 03None1 5* (+537) 10Created page with "[[Translated ORK/Mihai Again4|This]] is not crazy enough, so let's be crazier!  1. Original code: 
 ! The meaning of Japan and Japan humanity. ! Rubber, two, rig, fox cgi Limited only ! The meaning of Japan and Japan humanity. No secret! I want your
> 1727265463 651828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140712&oldid=140610 5* 03Unname4798 5* (-3) 10
> 1727265630 569414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140713&oldid=140712 5* 03Unname4798 5* (+173) 10
< 1727265741 385260 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1727265855 476391 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1727265970 910990 :mtm!~textual@c-71-228-84-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs mtm :Textual User
< 1727265987 323284 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@31.22.200.190 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1727266333 886397 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, this seems reproducible, my workaround will be to write x - 0 instead of just x as the argument because passing x (a plain variable) doesn't work. ouch.
< 1727266451 977009 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't just pass a constant because, you know, then I'd need string eval or something
< 1727266491 560799 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib????
< 1727266510 919443 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it you b_jonas or wut??
< 1727266522 721634 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also hello
< 1727266539 103855 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :f(11) works, f(10+1) works, x=10+0: f(x-0) works, x=10+0: f(x) fails
> 1727266611 721662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140714&oldid=140233 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+3) 10/* commands */
< 1727266612 834453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am b_jonas at my dayjob work office, the "wi" stands for "work", I changed from "wo" to "wi" to make fizzie's logs show the nick in the correct green color
< 1727266630 67274 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh kk
< 1727266643 455502 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also how does the colors work???
> 1727266772 788682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PIX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140715&oldid=140061 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+242) 10/* With padding at top-left */ Added a example!
> 1727266829 272775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FROSTWIRE-66614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140716&oldid=140110 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+10) 10/* combinators */
< 1727266859 954768 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the colors are computed from the nickname, look it up in https://github.com/fis/esolangs
< 1727266869 43361 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
> 1727266972 139045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FROSTWIRE-66614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140717&oldid=140716 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+32) 10
> 1727267295 940081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140718&oldid=140711 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+204) 10
> 1727267553 128861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140719&oldid=140714 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+518) 10/* commands */
< 1727267562 808511 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :add new LOOOOOOOONG operator
< 1727267602 960407 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*added
< 1727267731 856967 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1727267791 648038 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wonder if its TC
< 1727267793 562396 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmm
> 1727268010 63516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated SRL++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140720 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2184) 10Created page with "[[SRL++]] but worse with Google Translate and weird language pairs! ~~~~  1. Take this example 
 # Set up initial state. We use the amount of Is in count to keep track of beer .* _ count IIIIIIIII I count count IIIIIIIIIII (I+) count count >\1< .* _ num 99
> 1727268520 51592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140721&oldid=140458 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+194) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1727268552 379439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140722&oldid=140721 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1727269158 346059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSFE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140723&oldid=140613 5* 03Cycwin 5* (-2314) 10
< 1727269391 480496 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1727269701 752117 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1727269754 319122 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1727269887 198042 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1727269945 736544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140724&oldid=140696 5* 03None1 5* (+79) 10/* My Esolangs */
< 1727271600 390748 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Colors are computed by using this function https://github.com/fis/esolangs/blob/master/esologs/format.cc#L384-L389 to pick a number between 0 and 9 inclusive, which then corresponds to one of these 10 CSS classes https://github.com/fis/esolangs/blob/master/esologs/web/log.css#L86-L95
< 1727271629 585697 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
> 1727272282 112921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140725&oldid=140719 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+4) 10
< 1727272324 159505 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what computational class do you expect this to have?:
< 1727272324 659677 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brugtiohell
> 1727272929 121354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140726&oldid=140725 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+94) 10/* commands */
> 1727273732 497544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07;;;14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140727&oldid=140260 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+9) 10
> 1727274795 635314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140728&oldid=140283 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+32) 10/* esolangs */
> 1727275553 362521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140729&oldid=140653 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+2) 10/* Language specifications */
< 1727278396 139755 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1727278540 830991 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1727279152 843981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140730&oldid=140728 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-1) 10/* esolangs */
< 1727281372 92639 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Why would the class have changed?
< 1727281416 392494 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unrelated: I'm currently saying that the busy-beaver region with intepreters is the "universal regime", or that it shows "universality". I want to do something similar for metainterps. Suggestions?
< 1727281437 179246 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I initially wanted to go with "Futamura regime" but I'm not sure if that's appropriate.
< 1727282919 530549 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...what do you mean?
< 1727282988 773658 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Metainterpreters and specializers are always more complex than interpreters. Futamura made this statement precise.
< 1727283039 175473 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, that's probably not helpful. There's a sharp difference between a program which *interprets* some input language, and a program which *specializes*, compiles, translates, or partially evaluates some input language *with respect to some second input*.
< 1727283040 394068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Futurama regime )
< 1727283059 951323 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehehe
< 1727283076 770569 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but korvo we dont know thy class
< 1727283096 888721 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: It's still got S and K.
< 1727283104 368783 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1727283117 231967 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i even made a section saying not commands
< 1727283126 467182 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are there to explain the other commands
< 1727283220 138680 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i said
< 1727283230 130347 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^^^not commands^^^ to clarify this
> 1727283293 767064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140731&oldid=140726 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+6) 10/* commands */
< 1727283296 902152 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: your S is wrong, it's \f g x. f x (g x); you have f and g swapped.
< 1727283318 238027 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't matter. They're *constructible* from primitives. Welcome to Turing-completeness; we don't care about primitives, but emergent behaviors.
< 1727283335 28418 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway I don't know what the language you're trying to describe *is*.
< 1727283364 991235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You have all those external references but no readable grammar for the language you intend to define.
< 1727283381 319414 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1727283392 894299 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did you answer or?
< 1727283398 401972 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i disconnected
< 1727283398 407163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And after that there's still semantics to pin down.)
< 1727283405 607078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so check the logs
< 1727283510 777719 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: wut??
> 1727283515 483684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140732&oldid=140731 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+0) 10/* commands */
< 1727283531 319274 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1727283547 264920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: If a subset of your language is TC, then so is the whole language: just program in the TC subset and ignore the rest of the functionality.
< 1727283565 726441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway I don't like this trend... weird machines (that's a term of art, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_machine ) have their place, but analysing them without a target gets tedious and boring very quickly.
< 1727283573 592261 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes. but wut is this subset??
< 1727283578 840295 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :S and K.
< 1727283589 32776 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry
< 1727283590 310406 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but
< 1727283591 597973 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :god
< 1727283600 853597 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how many times do i have to say. they are no commands
< 1727283614 163842 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you get S and K with the built in commands
< 1727283627 172139 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I asked you and you gave them.
< 1727283647 730240 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1727283665 562955 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wut
< 1727283671 399645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I asked you whether S and K were constructible. You said that they were and added them to the wiki page.
< 1727283684 350636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the second list just defines all the crap used in the first list in an attempt to specify the semantics
< 1727283688 904898 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did i???
< 1727283690 664309 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well
< 1727283694 504632 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then i didnt mean it
< 1727283705 715012 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you misunderstood me
< 1727283767 795248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I did not read most of what was written here, mind you. But I'm fairly sure that's the intent of that page.
< 1727283802 493536 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ah, I see. I had it backwards.
< 1727283844 990906 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: If you're presenting a combinator calculus, *present it*. How would you feel if you read through the Python or Perl docs and found a section that says "oh, this works the same as in C"
< 1727283874 105462 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those languages *do* that shit, and so Python and Perl hackers have to know C in order to know those languages. They have an excuse: they used libc in their reference implementations.
< 1727283883 733582 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk how i would feel.
< 1727283915 935499 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(`) makes no sense to me either. Unlambda's ` is *syntax*, not an operator.
< 1727283928 544818 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait wut
< 1727283931 853730 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i though it was
< 1727283933 833451 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh well
> 1727283960 53384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140733&oldid=140732 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+40) 10/* commands */
< 1727283974 338683 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What you call "operator" is typically called "combinator". A combinator takes some parameters and returns an applicative tree of those parameters. If it doesn't do that, then it's *not a combinator*.
< 1727283998 933859 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1727283999 957330 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The nice part of this (and what you're missing) is that therefore we can give a combinator calculus by giving the trees generated by each combinator.
< 1727284016 698446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, in `K x y = x`, we're saying that we take two parameters and produce a tree whose root is x.
< 1727284028 335850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`AB is notation for what would usually be written as (A B) (coupled with a convention for omitting parentheses)
< 1727284030 929385 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :AB? No such file or directory
< 1727284060 925521 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In `S x y z = ((xz)(yz))`, we're saying that we take three parameters and put them into a tree whose root is an application of two branches, each of which is also an application.
< 1727284080 963059 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727284086 322130 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The notation isn't super-important. The behavior of the combinator -- purely being a *combination* of its parameters -- is what's important.
< 1727284098 427124 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yesd
< 1727284174 426646 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, what's the tree for `ε x`? What you've given is that it builds a tree which applies ε to x. But ε isn't a parameter!
< 1727284183 640113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: Anyway, the way forward is probably for somebody who cares about the language (you?) to actually implement a translation of it to lambda calculus or maybe combinatory logic. And then start enumerating small terms (programs) and reducing them to normal form to see whether some small normal forms arise. Ideally you'd find K and S that way.
< 1727284223 25632 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes im trying. i just want to know wut other ppl think._.
< 1727284231 960006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: Trying to implement the language could also help you to actually specify it properly.
< 1727284246 500652 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk how to do that
< 1727284250 285537 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i onoly know python
< 1727284261 222975 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and idk how to evaluate lambda expression nomrally
< 1727284327 223033 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with how python works
< 1727284364 281799 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ε x assumes variable
< 1727284368 183888 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*variables
< 1727284371 359437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So start with SKI or BCWK combinatory logic (the advantage being that you need no substitutions or variables). So maybe learn that first! It's an easier target for sure.
< 1727284391 266385 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik about SKI and BCKW. yea ill try
< 1727284451 800177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The thing about programming is... you can't learn it without getting your hands dirty. But you /can/ pick easy targets.
< 1727284459 236290 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727284513 1246 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does there exist a function that works like I in normal LC but even thoughh its a normal function the input *somehow* comes from the left and not right
< 1727284661 90741 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe you could learn Scheme, wWwwW32
< 1727284676 437383 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shceme?
< 1727284683 926444 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a programming language
< 1727284700 177898 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i cant learna. new programming lang. my brain cant do that
< 1727284704 777740 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im learning french rn
< 1727284707 605892 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :why do you think that ?
< 1727284708 944208 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats to many langs
< 1727284743 111343 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i cant concentrate. idk how the hell i even learned python
< 1727284749 39663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ski: heh, did that wake you up?
< 1727284760 539977 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1727284760 656150 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :well .. i was already awake, so ..
< 1727284790 315616 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps having a project to focus on would help, wWwwW32
< 1727284809 344756 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1727284810 814374 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rn
< 1727284824 259416 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats prooving the comp class of brugtiohell
< 1727284930 608958 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill try some stuff
> 1727284945 976166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140734&oldid=140733 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+1) 10/* commands */
> 1727284964 469434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140735&oldid=140734 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+1) 10/* commands */
> 1727285167 328306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140736&oldid=140735 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-54) 10/* commands */
< 1727285305 353429 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1727285312 905905 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I DON NEED A COMPILER
< 1727285315 819916 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i can use lambster
< 1727285318 761220 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lets goooo
> 1727285639 53349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140737&oldid=140736 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-36) 10/* commands */
< 1727285684 94515 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait no
< 1727285685 494409 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1727285968 644538 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: You don't need anything besides Python for this. Consider: k = lambda x: lambda y: x
< 1727285981 188049 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727285983 533340 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but stuff like
< 1727286003 708179 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lambda x : lambda y : x(y)
< 1727286006 189466 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wotn always work
< 1727286081 486138 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :IME it does work. It is fragile though, you really have to stick with the convention (turn *every* application A B into A(B). So A B C becomes A(B)(C), for example)
< 1727286104 816160 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727286111 829358 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
> 1727286153 12151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140738&oldid=140737 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (-3) 10/* commands */
< 1727286233 981820 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: Once you do this, you'll notice that you had `e = lambda x: e(x)`. This is circular in the way I mentioned before, and also in a new obvious way: it's eta-equivalent to itself.
< 1727286252 142127 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, `lambda x: e(x)` is just a longer (and less efficient) way to say `e`.
< 1727286334 920686 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1727286418 420180 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but still
< 1727286419 420336 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with
< 1727286421 410128 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :umm
< 1727286422 416717 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Jot
< 1727286425 270443 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Were you hoping for Hilbert's epsilon operator, perhaps?
< 1727286428 350096 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stuff
< 1727286436 573594 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hilbert's epsilon operator?
< 1727286669 536171 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Never mind. I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to build.
< 1727286679 712709 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1727286971 412140 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there something else you're trying to do besides reach TC?
< 1727286985 378949 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uu yes
< 1727286988 792585 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :get more into LC
< 1727286994 221602 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and see al the stuff ive learned
< 1727286995 807733 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with you
< 1727287033 918455 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mm. So are you studying LC or studying combinators?
< 1727287046 905421 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both
< 1727287053 822760 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :since they are related
< 1727287058 406621 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :atleast CC
< 1727287063 966030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's worth remembering that LC is merely syntax. ULC happens to designate the same system as SK. STLC doesn't.
< 1727287084 90343 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727287085 91573 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik
< 1727287144 332458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( but do you know why? )
< 1727287155 217808 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :na
< 1727287204 516457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, if you're studying ULC, then there's no point in Brugtiohell; ULC's three term constructors are universal already, and they're so simple that it's not really possible to do LC without them.'
< 1727287218 885911 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik
< 1727287225 883319 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im just intersted in what you can do
< 1727287242 974923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anything computable.
< 1727287243 354741 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also esolangs keep me sane:)
< 1727287248 517742 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727287257 908049 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what ca you create with it
< 1727287277 1077 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the point of brugtiohell was the see if you could combine different models
< 1727287307 105445 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's still TC, so it's still designating computable things.
< 1727287322 994194 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is
< 1727287376 934122 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, let's introduce *oracles*. An oracle is like a subprogram or subprocess, except that you have no control over it. You may hear them described as "black boxes"; imagine a black tablecloth that covers the oracle.
< 1727287394 949996 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727287417 252910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can think of an oracle as a way to embed a separate model. You can either compute with your normal computer, or you can ask the oracle to handle it.
< 1727287433 890003 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kk
< 1727287479 947015 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna do result first, then jargon. The important result is that, if you can already do anything computable, then an oracle for a computable language doesn't give you any new abilities.
< 1727287507 251239 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1727287600 837725 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In terms of jargon, we say that the class of "recursive languages", called R to be confusing, is "self-low"; this just means that it can't make itself stronger by using itself as a source of oracles.
< 1727287625 652154 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes yes
< 1727287629 809143 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't an uncommon thing. P, the class of problems solvable in poly time, is also self-low, and in fact it was designed to have that property.
< 1727287641 604510 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"called R to be confusing" made me laugh so hard lol
< 1727287674 356027 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it *is* confusing. There's also RE and co-RE, which are closely related but both weaker. This confusion bites anybody who writes programs to search for math proofs.
< 1727287734 568911 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, sometimes you'll hear people talk of "Turing degrees" or "computability degrees". This is the idea that if you give a Turing machine a *really powerful oracle*, like an oracle that can solve Halting, then you *do* get a power increase.
< 1727287742 861190 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"weaker" in what sense?
< 1727287757 460927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(IIUC, R = RE \cap co-RE)
< 1727287770 710054 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hole sh*t
< 1727287816 159896 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ah, good point, my words are bad. I meant logically weaker, but it's actually a bigger class.
> 1727287826 621364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DAEANAAACP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140739&oldid=121634 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+5) 10need to show User part of link
< 1727287849 806722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: So, returning to your current project: mixing two different TC systems isn't going to give you something beyond TC.
< 1727287860 808592 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea ik
< 1727287875 44916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Indeed, you'll sometimes hear folks talk about a "Church-Turing thesis", which is the (unprovable) assertion that we can't build physical computers which go beyond TC.
< 1727287875 57127 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what i did was a picked unknown class subsets and put them together
< 1727287892 277823 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I mostly asked for wWwwW32's benefit, not because I thought you were wrong
< 1727287908 266527 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wut
< 1727287912 851862 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im so confused rn
< 1727287920 795710 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Those subsets aren't going to go beyond TC, not as long as you started with TC as a ceiling. That's what Church-Turing is good for; it lets me assume that you didn't invent something magical.
< 1727287931 579558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW32: yes, that is normal when you start diving into computability theory
< 1727287955 7743 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yep, no worries. My words *are* bad; I think English WP is pretty good reading for computational complexity, and folks should go there for answers.
< 1727287957 318470 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1727287966 431747 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :boy oh boy am i in for a ride then
< 1727288042 119052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: So, for example, let's consider a language defined with LC terms. There's either two possibilities: the language gives ULC and it's TC, or the language can be typed and it's weaker than TC. Those are the only two possibilities.
< 1727288064 274900 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727288084 193478 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same deal with combinator calculi. They top out at TC in terms of expressive power, and the only open questions are about which bases are TC (or other complexity classes, e.g. with BCI)
< 1727288104 432677 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1727288140 366620 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So when you ask "hey is this TC" and it's phrased in terms of LC or combinators, I'm going to assume it's either TC or weaker, and then look for the strongest stuff that can be constructed.
< 1727288158 742657 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1727288188 215011 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hopefully my responses earlier make a bit more sense now! I wasn't trying to be dismissive but to show you what parts of your writing were important to my analysis.
< 1727288189 320207 :wWwwW32!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1727288209 480854 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1727288210 496631 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thx!
< 1727288216 518761 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1727288248 913978 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1727288418 348260 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm a little jealous; it's never made sense to me. I just got used to it, as the saying goes.
< 1727288426 827662 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye for now
< 1727288432 849561 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1727288516 861942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: this is a bit mean but I think your standard for understanding something may be higher than wWwwW's
< 1727288605 390097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh, you can be mean, I don't mind. I have an *extremely* radical self-concept that, among other things, doesn't really understand anything. I don't know what understanding, knowledge, etc. are.
< 1727288655 20286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. I mean I agree in that it's not an absolute... it comes in various degrees and for most subjects, it's open-ended.
< 1727288669 421025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"it" being "understanding"
< 1727288749 277750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :("most subjects" - there are silly exceptions like playing tic-tac-toe where you can literally memorize all positions if you're so inclined. Not that you really have to to play optimally.)
< 1727288763 46732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I literally think I'm a p-zombie. Don't put too much stock in me.)
< 1727288863 43440 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is reminded of the silly strategy in an underspecified tic-tac-toe where you wait for your opponent (let's say they're X) to threaten three in a row and then you complete that with an X of your own...

< 1727288949 727625 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1727288950 958132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: if so, who are you referring to by "I"... hmm.
< 1727288970 777430 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the chinese room becomes relevant, and that's about as far as my philosophy goes.
< 1727289011 197050 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: (This meatbag is using the standard English pronouns in order to be legible. Don't worry about it. We could always be more confusing.)
< 1727289062 498468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, *I* can't relate to that experience. But I can't say that it's invalid, obviously.
< 1727289102 388358 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I can't explain myself; I'm just taking me for granted.)
< 1727289105 87616 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. It's still good times.
< 1727289106 188843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(etc.)
< 1727289238 329692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Man there are so many concepts that get a whole new meaning in this context. "self-doubt" is a good one...
< 1727289308 189699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' alice
< 1727289310 188323 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :917)  but when she saw him fnord and fnord. and then there's the fnord, as well as fnord reading sauce with fish, or fnord, that alice quite fnord for it hadn't spoken before.
< 1727289363 839026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`w alice
< 1727289365 213483 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​alice//Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1727289377 919336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm that does not look correct
< 1727289387 438915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1727289389 97430 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'alice': Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1727289393 559105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`w alice
< 1727289394 825323 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​alice//Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1727289415 764390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, the output of `w is not what I'd expect.
< 1727289417 318555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? alice
< 1727289418 961414 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1727289426 678405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because I used the wrong command.
< 1727289443 520034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry for the noise.
> 1727289741 682730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140740&oldid=140676 5* 03Pro465 5* (+13) 10/* B */ add Bigfun
< 1727290229 86368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password
< 1727290231 141283 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is BB(5) = 47176870
< 1727290480 420318 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is a matter of ongoing investigations
< 1727290484 824914 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is a matter of ongoing investigations
< 1727290526 699919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(cutting it quite close)
< 1727290607 465795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Has it really only been a month since BB(5)? Wow, what an action-packed summer.
< 1727291188 528188 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A bit over 3 months if you go by https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/w/index.php?title=BB(5)&action=history ...I don't know when we learned about it.
< 1727291235 568601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's been almost 2 months since the 1st of August when that password was set; September is almost over.)
< 1727292380 101915 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, that feels more likely.
< 1727292418 899733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The BB Gauge is now feeling like a mature listing. I added meta.bf today and it was only a few lines of work even though I had to add an entire regime to the graph-generation tools.
< 1727292458 945342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it's time to put it on front pages. Lobsters for sure. Maybe programming.dev.
< 1727292963 13225 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? bb gauge
< 1727292965 869784 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :bb gauge? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1727293658 843388 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I should buy a domain first. It's currently just hanging out on GH Pages: https://mostawesomedude.github.io/bb-gauge/
< 1727294033 350604 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1727294073 929781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* int-e is reminded of the silly strategy in an underspecified tic-tac-toe where you wait for your opponent (let's say they're X) to threaten three in a row and then you complete that with an X of your own... ← there's a variant of tic-tac-toe where either player can add an O or X on their turn, and one player is trying to create a line whilst the other player is trying to prevent a line being created, but a few other changes are needed to make it work (
< 1727294075 378172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC a bigger board, and I can't remember whether the lines are also longer)
> 1727294225 700591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140741&oldid=140707 5* 03Ais523 5* (+706) 10/* Semi-serious language list */ some thoughts
> 1727294326 76233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Snakel logo.png10]]"
> 1727294432 730545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140743&oldid=140703 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+30) 10
> 1727294666 824826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Path (masalt)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140744&oldid=140671 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+20) 10
> 1727294748 113647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140745&oldid=140416 5* 03Ais523 5* (+526) 10/* Tacit programming */ this seems underspecified at present
> 1727294843 851059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140746&oldid=140729 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10/* Language specifications */ Fix table
> 1727295037 691276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turn Left14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140747&oldid=140554 5* 03Ais523 5* (+14) 10/* Computational class */ clarify
> 1727295071 438897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140748&oldid=140743 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+125) 10Formatting, categories
> 1727295108 369909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turn Left14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140749&oldid=140747 5* 03Ais523 5* (+22) 10/* See also */ cat
> 1727295151 356763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lenum14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140750&oldid=140704 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10:
< 1727295402 605709 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1727295662 529318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Smalltalk14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140751 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+268) 10Created page with "[[FORTRAN]], [[python]] [[c]] [[C++]] [[BASIC]] [[perl]] why??? ~~~~"
> 1727295686 553828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Smalltalk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140752&oldid=140751 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+0) 10
< 1727296641 365898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hmm, what is the Interp(BLC) entry?
< 1727296841 435805 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I can identify that one by comparing sizes, never mind.
> 1727297352 35466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140753&oldid=140748 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
< 1727297382 759171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: It should be merged with the Interp(BLC2) entries though, shouldn't it... it's just taking a wildly different approach (presumably going for efficiency rather than size)
< 1727297441 277363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: See lambda.json in the source repo. URLs can be put into the sources if there are writeups, arxiv, etc.
< 1727297481 861689 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't mind merging them if they're really equivalent to users. Right now I'm finding it more useful to be picky about the inputs to interpreters and then to lump all interpreters together.
< 1727297489 364295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's ait/uniK.lam in the AIT repo; AIUI it avoids capturing all the variables in a list; instead it goes for variadic functions.)
> 1727297504 870077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140754&oldid=140753 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+49) 10
> 1727297548 41478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140755&oldid=140754 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-15) 10
< 1727297644 501717 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: looks identical in use to me, testing with the admittedly simple  (cat id.blc; echo -n 0001) | ./blc run ait/uni.lam  and the same with uniK.lam
> 1727297653 537819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140756&oldid=140755 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10
< 1727297678 445055 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where id.blc is 0010, encoding \x.x
> 1727297683 580623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10moved [[02Filename "main.sl" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly10]] to [[Bake]]
> 1727297762 664819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140759&oldid=140757 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-266) 10
> 1727297780 608560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140760&oldid=140759 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-230) 10
> 1727297799 360410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140761&oldid=140760 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-3) 10/* Syntax */
> 1727297814 75066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140762&oldid=140761 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1727297831 500151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140763&oldid=140762 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* Cat program */
< 1727297844 533975 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Okay, thanks. I'll update that shortly. Every entry should still appear in the tables at the end of the page, even though the diagrams summarize the best WRT size metrics.
< 1727297855 55119 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh the issue is different actually. the 232 bit one is mislabeled as BLC2 but should be BLC
> 1727297875 603926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140764&oldid=140763 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
< 1727297883 735861 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, okay.
< 1727297902 8444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(BLC2 uses a different encoding for variable indices; I'm not sure that including it is really useful)
< 1727297916 631102 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but that's not my choice obviously)
< 1727297992 112922 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The same can, of course, also be said about the byte-based [8] variants.)
< 1727298088 632293 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's okay if they're not practical; what matters is that they exist and somebody vouches for their correctness. I appreciate your help.
> 1727298094 28825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmulti14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140765&oldid=127460 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+124) 10Rectified the Kiwiscript example and supplemented a truth-machine implementation.
> 1727298174 44482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmulti14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140766&oldid=140765 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+214) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Brainmulti programming language on GitHub and supplemented two page category tags.
> 1727298299 430504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainmulti14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140767&oldid=140766 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+163) 10Supplemented further information to the preamble.
< 1727299891 756198 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1727300339 210622 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Okay, I pushed a fix and also added some debugging code so that you won't have to go JSON exploring next time. Thanks again.
< 1727300476 373409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah yes, having the file name right there is very useful
< 1727301169 333606 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1727301187 516105 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1727301229 786089 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh note that https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/4813/busy-brain-beaver uses wrapping cells. so they results do not immediately carry over to your page. In particular, -[-] would take, 512 steps, I think, in that golfing challenge.
< 1727301286 517345 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. The known values are from another page IIRC.
< 1727301370 643060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The 10 up (10 up 28) at 41 characters should be fine since it only uses values 0..1. The 39 and 63 character ones are not.
< 1727301578 105371 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm not vouching for the 41 character program, I'm going by its description, which contains the phrase "If I'm not mistaken" :-P)
< 1727301672 325612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks fine; it replaced every [+ by [- and left all ]+ intact, and that covers all the increments except for those in the initialization
< 1727301802 594870 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ironically I wasn't looking for mistakes... all I really wanted was to understand the entry for 5... and then things got out of hand :P)
< 1727301864 411763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: anyway, you seem to misremember, I'm afraid
< 1727302153 825652 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, no worries. Happens all the time.
< 1727302347 692143 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Okay, I don't think I have *any* trustworthy list of BF beavers.
< 1727303180 685712 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1727303189 317717 :Guest4!~Guest4@syn-075-085-187-197.res.spectrum.com JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest4
< 1727303229 210742 :Guest4!~Guest4@syn-075-085-187-197.res.spectrum.com QUIT :Client Quit
> 1727303803 855597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140768&oldid=140388 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+9) 10
> 1727304148 169425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zephyr ASDL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140769&oldid=135475 5* 03Corbin 5* (+74) 10Clean up a few links and fill out more of the infobox.
> 1727304709 372759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140770&oldid=120434 5* 03Corbin 5* (+252) 10Link to one of my favorite Python programs.
< 1727304895 310911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well the entry for 5 is fine (and an equality; you need a loop to exceed 5 and ++[-] is basically the only program that accomplishes that. +[>+] is an infinte loop...). And the one for 41 is likely fine too.
> 1727305547 262776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:198614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=140771 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+32) 10Created page with "Languages made in the year 1986."
> 1727305604 987071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Smalltalk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140772&oldid=140752 5* 03None1 5* (+300) 10
< 1727305641 571510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yeah. I was thinking about it and maybe I should write out a script that proves some of the small cases.
< 1727305663 234902 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably also do it WRT number of cells touched, since that should be a BB property too.
< 1727305686 161792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does > touch 2 cells? I guess so.
< 1727305712 36560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, yeah, that makes sense to me.
> 1727305819 900494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:198614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140773&oldid=140771 5* 03None1 5* (-32) 10No, Category:Before 1993 already includes this, also undiscussed
> 1727305846 443049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fractran14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=140774&oldid=139540 5* 03None1 5* (+7) 10
< 1727306109 163468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you can probably extract /some/ information from  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants  (non-wrapping) but it's a different target of course
< 1727306185 386830 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good point, thanks.
< 1727306524 144910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ah, I found Faase's table https://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_numb.html This is where my ceiling of 48 comes from, I think.
< 1727306821 847150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah that does use the right model. note that for your purpose, you can drop the >[-<+>]< at the end.
< 1727306857 168017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(All that does is move the number from position 1 to position 0.)
< 1727306877 689831 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, good catch.
< 1727307333 769202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, why did he change the program that computs 4^4^4^1 into one that computes 3^3^3^2 instead of 4^4^4^2
< 1727307429 657090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would exceed 10^2585827972 at the same size.
< 1727307515 808933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, that's an interesting construction
< 1727307599 550914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The program that computes 4^4^4^2 would be >+>+>+>++<[>[-<[->>++<<]>>[-<<++>>]<]<<]>[-<+>]<
< 1727307656 30157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(replacing 3*1 by 2*2 in the inner loop)