< 1728518794 666007 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ais523_stealth4: points 10.07, score 33.06, rank 5/47 (+1)
< 1728519174 662126 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what's being computed. I hope it's a ray tracer making a beautiful video.
< 1728519598 150744 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you're wondering about zemhill, see https://zem.fi/bfjoust/
< 1728519628 398069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie resurrected the bot... today I think. well, yesterday for me.
< 1728522077 403601 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.123.225 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1728522151 608457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142984&oldid=142983 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10Category
< 1728522165 805285 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1728522217 791852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LOLCODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142985&oldid=134041 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10Categories
> 1728529199 575002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142986&oldid=142785 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+3941) 10changed the quine, now it's correct
> 1728529323 397002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ZCX islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142987&oldid=142940 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+173) 10
> 1728529752 419054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07V++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142988&oldid=142971 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+31) 10Wayback
< 1728532117 109227 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1728533148 480554 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728533490 357381 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1728534303 993149 :riv!river@tilde.team/user/river QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.3.1
< 1728534743 861023 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e, fizzie: Cool, thanks.
< 1728534768 851126 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably not a good sign that I've reacted by sketching wave equations for the tape.
> 1728535672 483574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* 10New user account
> 1728535735 595183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142989&oldid=142635 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+12) 10/* esolangs */
> 1728535756 206428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142990&oldid=142989 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+2) 10/* esolangs */
> 1728536223 162177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142991&oldid=142918 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+333) 10
> 1728536265 612654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142992 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+37) 10Created page with "[[User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/p (Cole)]]"
> 1728536292 255362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142993&oldid=142992 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+7) 10
> 1728536414 786903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=142994 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+41) 10Created page with "Alphabet p ' 0 1 + ( ) "
< 1728536583 85389 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.123.225 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1728537326 227389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142995&oldid=142994 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+1281) 10New page (yay)
> 1728537358 134846 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142996&oldid=142793 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1053) 10
> 1728537438 106359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142997&oldid=142995 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (-17) 10
> 1728537494 869665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142998&oldid=142997 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (-13) 10
< 1728537661 906424 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
> 1728537744 639423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=142999&oldid=142998 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+125) 10
> 1728537759 441031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai again714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143000 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1897) 10Created page with "The future for [[Translated_ORK/None1_Again7]]: 1. Take crappy source: 2? It is the celebration of high priests and funeral. 2? Zanguang Zhang & lt; 2? Zanguang Zhang First, I was a strange graduate. Zanguang Zhang
2. Translate: Baid
> 1728537773 453184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai again714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143001&oldid=143000 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10
< 1728537803 867639 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
> 1728537914 348645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143002&oldid=142702 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+122) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1728537955 213378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03MihaiEso 5* 10moved [[02Translated ORK/Mihai again710]] to [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again7]]: Misspelled title
> 1728537970 147826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143005&oldid=143002 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* Horribly translated variants */
> 1728537981 401813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143006&oldid=142996 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* Contrast */
> 1728538136 719041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143007&oldid=142999 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+312) 10
< 1728538211 620156 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1728538212 102222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143008&oldid=143007 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+176) 10/* All possible small programs */
> 1728538253 295051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143009&oldid=143008 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+0) 10/* All possible small programs */
< 1728539972 793188 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1728540099 468153 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1728541607 305484 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1728541790 83111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hashell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143010&oldid=142939 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+192) 10/* operators */
> 1728542370 33165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143011&oldid=142925 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+77) 10uhhhhhhhh
> 1728542452 363911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ZCX islptng/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143012&oldid=143011 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+13) 10
> 1728542686 36717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ZCX islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143013&oldid=142906 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+212) 10
< 1728542741 435867 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1728543011 544047 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest gauss3 (-----+++----+++++---++++)*5050
< 1728543011 891739 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo.gauss3: points -17.83, score 8.19, rank 47/47
< 1728543363 844387 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest gauss_pair (>+++--++---+++--++---<-----+++----+++++---++++)*2632
< 1728543364 132695 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo.gauss_pair: points -27.33, score 4.59, rank 47/47
< 1728543856 177750 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1728544130 390099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ZCX islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143014&oldid=142987 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (-173) 10
> 1728544321 215319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143015&oldid=142094 5* 03ZCX islptng 5* (+185) 10
> 1728545172 392994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143016&oldid=142966 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+75) 10/* Programm forms */
< 1728545202 640314 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`addwhatis ztest(1perlbot) compute performance of a bfjoust program against current hill without adding it to the hill
< 1728545204 73838 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/addwhatis", line 21, in \ procnew(arg) \ File "/hackenv/bin/addwhatis", line 17, in procnew \ print("addwhatis: cannot parse input as whatis line or whatis key: %r" % (line,), file = sys.stderr) \ NameError: name 'line' is not defined
< 1728545212 217877 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1728545228 886539 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah
< 1728545234 246023 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`addwhatis ztest(1perlbot) - compute performance of a bfjoust program against current hill without adding it to the hill
< 1728545237 605269 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :addwhatis: added 'ztest(1perlbot)'
< 1728545259 517232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`addwhatis zjoust(1perlbot) - add bfjoust program to current hill
< 1728545262 477559 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :addwhatis: added 'zjoust(1perlbot)'
< 1728545274 470972 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`prefixes
< 1728545276 465331 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ? or > , thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
< 1728545344 187603 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1728545938 544112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, my initial theories about defensive plays are not panning out. gauss3 should not do so well compared to gauss3 + some sort of attack. (Not that gauss3 is good.)
> 1728546044 879482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143017&oldid=142666 5* 03B jonas 5* (+9) 10
> 1728546059 523406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zemhill14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143018 5* 03B jonas 5* (+22) 10Redirected page to [[BF Joust]]
> 1728548477 798846 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Pointless 5* 10New user account
> 1728548660 916889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:The dark reader at home.jpg10]]"
> 1728548688 658148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143020&oldid=142993 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+113) 10
< 1728548849 612555 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1728548868 319031 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1728549054 226205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Till thirty first14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143021&oldid=142973 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+15) 10
< 1728549062 761282 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.115.35 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1728549589 332678 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.115.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1728549691 217764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143022&oldid=142991 5* 03Pointless 5* (+303) 10/* Introductions */
> 1728549703 808798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143023 5* 03Pointless 5* (+11970) 10Created page with "'''Fysh''' is an esoteric programming language that embraces creativity and a playful aquatic theme. It uses fish-related symbols and terms to represent programming concepts, making coding a fun and engaging experience. ==Introduction== '''Fysh''' brings a whimsical t
< 1728549982 949835 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.test1: points -14.00, score 11.42, rank 47/47
< 1728550533 612190 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
< 1728550629 737210 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1728550641 960809 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1728551047 510744 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1728551726 590316 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.119.229 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1728551761 459728 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.119.229 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1728552602 979858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143024&oldid=143016 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-24) 10
> 1728552650 207420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143025&oldid=143024 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+24) 10
< 1728552892 598739 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :One of the things I vaguely recall people said about the existing hill is that it's too competitive, it's hard to rank better than 47/47 unless you're already good at the game.
< 1728552924 600290 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not sure if that's true or not, never gotten into BF Joust beyond the implementation side of things.)
> 1728552952 713381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143026&oldid=143023 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-20) 10/* Option 2: Using Command Line */
> 1728553040 732680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143027&oldid=143026 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+59) 10/* */
> 1728553446 423278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OCA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143028&oldid=142518 5* 03Iddi01 5* (-2043) 10Way too personal and jokey, it probably already misleads lots of people who had visited this page from recent changes. Too bad i cannot fix things at conwaylife.com due to being decidedly inactive there. (Also, why Languages? The [[CA]] page is categorized Computational models.)
< 1728553634 95974 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe it. But also, my existing intuition on BF doesn't help here. In particular, concurrent loop semantics are very different from the standard semantics.
< 1728554065 930650 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1728554553 400415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143029&oldid=142984 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* Functions */
> 1728554592 961514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143030&oldid=143029 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1) 10/* Keywords */
> 1728554643 522981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143031&oldid=143030 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10/* Numerical types */
> 1728554905 325137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143032&oldid=143027 5* 03Pointless 5* (+4117) 10
> 1728554925 286108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fuckscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143033&oldid=126493 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */ Actually implemented.
> 1728555010 115938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143034&oldid=143032 5* 03Pointless 5* (+25) 10/* Optional Visuals */
> 1728555044 787376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143035&oldid=143034 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+66) 10Someone deleted the categories, so I restored it.
> 1728555045 687372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143036&oldid=143035 5* 03Pointless 5* (-6) 10/* Increment */
> 1728555061 239986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143037&oldid=143036 5* 03Pointless 5* (-2) 10/* Integers */
> 1728555085 671178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143038&oldid=143037 5* 03Pointless 5* (-3) 10/* Arrays and Traversal */
> 1728555100 648380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pointless14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143039 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+26) 10Created page with "Someone who does [[Fysh]]."
> 1728555110 639307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143040&oldid=143038 5* 03Pointless 5* (-3) 10/* Logical Shift Operations */
> 1728555181 292664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143041&oldid=143040 5* 03Pointless 5* (-1) 10/* How to Compile and Run Fysh */
> 1728555233 462978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143042&oldid=143041 5* 03Pointless 5* (-6) 10/* if Statements: The Happy Fysh > */
> 1728555279 580412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143043&oldid=143042 5* 03Pointless 5* (-13) 10/* Conditional Statements */
> 1728555587 32327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143044&oldid=143043 5* 03Pointless 5* (+4) 10added spacing between chapters
> 1728555853 131932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143045&oldid=143044 5* 03Pointless 5* (+124) 10
< 1728557006 952203 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1728557027 426171 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1728557066 433064 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1728557095 926651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143046&oldid=142982 5* 03None1 5* (+323) 10/* Make Poetic (Mihai Popa) with more examples! */
> 1728557609 837719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143047&oldid=143046 5* 03None1 5* (+286) 10/* Help contributing/translating/administrating Funcode? */
< 1728558446 319022 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1728558549 854922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1728558663 427223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: there are some programs which attempt to skip over enemy decoys, so if you make no changes to the tape other than to your flag, you get free wins against them
< 1728558716 282940 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, most top programs are designed to beat, in one way or another, programs that don't attack at all – those are typically easy to detect, so you can use a customized algorithm when you realise the opponent is acting like that
< 1728558796 867346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I took this opportunity to actually analyse what Sookie is doing, it's an entirely new tactic that originally looks ridiculous, but I now understand why it works
< 1728558955 776032 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: From studying the dynamics in terms of mechanics, I'm noticing that there's no nemeses, even adaptively.
< 1728559005 982471 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mostly this is because observation is very weak. Like, all that can be observed is whether a cell is zero, the only choice for the observer is polarity, and the answer is always yes but with a time delay. And the delay's not measurable either.
< 1728559054 298022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some programs that do a substantial amount of observation, e.g. anticipation2 (which does work by measuring the delay)
< 1728559109 88246 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, yeah, of course. They're looking for indirect evidence of their opponent.
> 1728559112 244492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143048&oldid=143045 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Decrement */ Not*, but-
< 1728559181 17625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :several programs intentionally work by setting a cell to a nonzero value, then waiting there until it becomes zero
< 1728559261 432297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. So, like, what I was doing earlier was considering each jouster as a particle and the tape as a field. I had been trying to simplify the whole polarity situation.
< 1728559283 837016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although not all of them do anything with the timing information (I think anticipation2 and smartlock do – and waterfall3 used to, although it's fallen off the hill now
< 1728559428 605550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. But it's all measured based on assumptions about access patterns, right?
< 1728559502 298378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no – it's based on the win condition
> 1728559505 735535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143049&oldid=143048 5* 03None1 5* (+22) 10/* External Resources */
< 1728559516 958543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to win you have to hold the opponent's flag at zero for two cycles before moving on
< 1728559547 137389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, as long as the opponent doesn't make a risky skip of your tripwire cell, you can just wait until it's at zero for two cycles, because you know the opponent has to do that at some point
< 1728559570 833898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you only know that the opponent *was* at the tripwire.
< 1728559587 736968 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you don't know they're going to move to the right after clearing it, indeed
< 1728559601 84782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, you also don't really care
< 1728559607 486985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust simple_rush (>)*5+++(<(+)*40)*4(>)*7(>[(+)*5[-]])*21
< 1728559607 792142 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.simple_rush: points -9.02, score 12.91, rank 42/47
> 1728559691 810805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143050&oldid=143049 5* 03None1 5* (+45) 10
< 1728559700 117602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is possible to get *somewhere* on the board just by following what have become established BF Joust fundamentals – do something to avoid losing to pokes, set up decoys, and clear
< 1728559713 999810 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, maybe not in the current meta. But how do we know that we haven't overlooked some extremely clever and easy strategy?
> 1728559741 64330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143051&oldid=141375 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10
< 1728559753 977777 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sookie might be an example of that – we thought BF Joust was solved a few years ago, but it specifically beats the strategy that we thought solved it
< 1728559876 418140 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1728560110 386709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143052&oldid=143050 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10/* External Resources */ TC (easy to implement brainfuck)
< 1728560124 159712 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't feel like the current strategies describe a solved game, but maybe I've not thought about it enough.
< 1728560217 862192 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking in terms of physics. The jousters are particles, the cells are orientations on a unit circle, the tests are observations. The goal was to understand what a board position is like from the epistemic POV of a jouster.
< 1728560413 305450 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And like yeah, there's a basic wave function that we can set up, but it's useless. I think it's not possible for a jouster to observe enough about their opponent to always provide a perfect counterplay; there's no adaptive nemesis.
< 1728560445 168024 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I also can't see a static pattern which doesn't need knowledge of the opponent, so I think that there's no static nemesis either. Just my opinion of course, but it'd be surprising, right?
< 1728560456 856936 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it is usually possible to counter-build against a specific program if you want to beat that program in particular
< 1728560472 943303 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. by recognising the decoy setup
< 1728560508 587646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that has been done a few times in the past to bump programs up from a 98%ish winrate to a 100% winrate (where a "win" here = winning more than half the individual tape length / polarity combinations)
< 1728560652 57711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I feel like the current state of BF Joust strategy is that there is a basic standard strategy that is generically good, plus a number of less normal strategies that it is possible to take countermeasures against individually, but will beat you if you don't take those countermeasures
< 1728560718 116286 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I recall there were also some attempts at auto-generating programs genetic programming style, evaluated for fitness against the then-current hill.
< 1728560735 624511 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. My perspective is that current strategies are special cases which bump out because of discreteness and the law of small numbers. They're not bad but they're not indicative of the general solution.
< 1728560747 584995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the less normal strategies are a) traditional lock-based defence, b) vibration, c) shudder, d) triplocking, e) very fast rush
< 1728560757 319134 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1728560778 629705 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then, there are probabilistic locks which were created to beat the standard strategy, and those are interesting because it isn't clear how to special-case against those, and traditional locks, at the same time
< 1728560819 527795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the interesting parts of writing an attack loop is that you can usually reliably figure out that the opponent is doing *something* to defend against you, but not what specific defence technique they're using
< 1728560847 287977 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isnt haskell `\_.` TC?
< 1728560867 442090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: no, Haskell is statically typed
< 1728560891 3884 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wat?
< 1728560902 10889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You need some sort of recursion in the names. For Haskell, that comes from `let`, `where`, or top-level bindings.
< 1728560927 797816 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also isnt . as a lambda expression just...B from BCKW?
< 1728560930 37286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: untyped lambda calculus is TC, but simply typed lambda calculus isn't on its own
< 1728560933 558568 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The simply-typeable fragments of a calculus aren't going to yield a TC system. This is, in a certain sense, one of the reasons to *have* simple typing.
< 1728560943 488285 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728560955 416911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: oh, you would need parentheses to make that work
< 1728560964 470675 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728560966 456860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also you need -> to even be able to write a syntactically correct lambda
< 1728560986 932657 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so `\_.()->`?
< 1728561009 551178 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yes, Haskell (.) is the B combinator (or maybe its flip?)
< 1728561023 698440 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :since
< 1728561038 943439 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for f(.)g = f (g x)
< 1728561043 688528 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where x is the funciton input
< 1728561104 377537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think \_.()-> still has no way to write a fix
< 1728561113 457696 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, like, it's hopefully obvious that a wavefunction approach can generalize probabalistic locks? It just does so in a pessimistic way; clearly we learn nothing about how to defeat them.
< 1728561114 36273 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fix?
< 1728561119 930160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, a while back oerjan told me that SKI+fix is not TC in a simply typed lambda calculus
< 1728561133 16792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: like the lambda calculus version of a loop
< 1728561140 311067 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728561150 759071 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if you also have = and variable names
< 1728561157 637689 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Maybe it's time to pause and understand what TC, recursion, access to names, and fixed-point combinators all *do*. They have something in common.
< 1728561171 586055 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik what recusion does
< 1728561184 258808 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it "loops"
< 1728561198 620469 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay. Do you see why simply-typed calculi don't "loop"?
< 1728561211 753647 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OOOOOOH
< 1728561214 809080 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fu-
< 1728561220 557392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so probabilistic locks want to avoid "rerolling" the probability, if they have a lock they don't want to give the other program the opportunity to escape, which means that they want to put the gaps in a consistent place in their schedule
< 1728561247 426743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to beat them, therefore, you repeatedly adjust your *own* schedule to change where the gaps are, until one of the gaps hits 0
< 1728561247 905577 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: As a follow-up, have you heard the phrase "infinite type" yet?
> 1728561252 725679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143053&oldid=143051 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10The semicolon is pointless
< 1728561254 825554 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1728561275 89613 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nooooo but i would guess its a type that holds all types?
< 1728561378 907069 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A type that contains itself.
< 1728561395 639488 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1728561398 101099 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well
< 1728561402 872456 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does haskell have that
< 1728561406 169107 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1728561448 5725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not by default – there are ways to create them intentionally if you have to, but it'll reject code with an error if it tries to create one without using the syntax to do so
< 1728561463 37185 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. And the available modes for doing that are, in my increasingly-strained analogy, like harmonics of a particle which the trap is constraining.
< 1728561466 968204 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn PRIVMSG #esolangs :GHC defaults to Type-in-Type now IIRC.
< 1728561502 605147 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the default kind contains itself. And kinds are just types of types.
< 1728561510 544614 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, and Haskell's long had the more basic W-types. Famously Haskell has infinite lists.
> 1728561589 726933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143054&oldid=142810 5* 03None1 5* (+231) 10/* Commands */
< 1728561639 868767 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Sets are examples of types. If you're having trouble imagining types, you can imagine sets for now. So, a simply-typed calculus is one where we can give "simple" sets to each variable: the variable's values will always be elements of that set.
> 1728561688 563309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143055&oldid=143054 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10
< 1728561698 659892 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And recursion is merely when a set isn't "simple" and the elements of that set can be examined with a "loop". (As you might guess, defining the words in quotes isn't fun.)
< 1728561787 543907 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell makes this all very muddy because its types *aren't* sets. Again, sets are examples of Haskell types, but Haskell also has some other stuff going on.
< 1728562037 123860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Still analogizing, sorry. The less normal strategies are now (a) laser cooling, (b) non-trivial ground states, (c) time crystals, and (e) cosmic rays. Triplocking is even more interesting now.
< 1728562077 977657 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure that these analogies are helpful :-D
< 1728562080 489745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they are though
< 1728562110 292312 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728562111 692859 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1728562115 81839 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had an weird idea
< 1728562116 920579 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if
< 1728562123 240809 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for this subset
< 1728562141 19591 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you had some recursive function that was a type if that makes sense?
< 1728562252 862785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Look at the type of `fix`. IIRC in Haskell it's (A → A) → A. This hints at the idea of a type A which is equivalent to the function type A → A.
< 1728562277 906090 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728562310 429757 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This particular kind of infinite type is sometimes called Turing coding. The intuition is that elements of A are programs, and some of them are programs for functions (which operate on programs).
< 1728562371 974127 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you have that predifined
< 1728562373 684193 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is
< 1728562398 35204 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.()\_-> then TC?
< 1728562406 173460 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also
< 1728562412 420736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Probably. You'd have to try it and see.
< 1728562419 493838 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would monads be usefull in this context
< 1728562424 666675 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like >>=
< 1728562427 271270 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and >>
< 1728562453 14406 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Monads would be a way to do I/O. If you haven't yet, look at BLC's I/O too.
< 1728562466 738583 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728562469 534489 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BLC?
< 1728562480 321465 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you don't know what a monad is, then don't toss them in without thinking.
< 1728562500 393201 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1728562501 963392 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same BLC as the last few times.
< 1728562511 734285 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isnt if i rember correctly just
< 1728562523 801698 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you get an error while doing a function return that function
< 1728562527 231948 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :else return the result
< 1728562604 931583 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm probably not the right person to ask. To me, a monad is fundamentally a functorial concept; you'd need to know what a functor is.
< 1728562627 389807 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ik what a functor is
< 1728562644 577667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, a monad is what you get from an adjunction of functors. Or a monad is a monoid object in a category of endofunctors (the famous one!) Or a monad is an element of a 2-category.
< 1728562662 828868 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :adjunction?
< 1728562669 412028 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Do you know about adjunctions?
< 1728562678 396778 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1728562696 225693 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that weird(when knwoing about functors)
< 1728562716 353836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah. But adjunctions are *very* important, so you'll likely see them a lot. It's okay if they don't make sense yet.
< 1728562718 617420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the "monoid in a category of endofunctors" definition was actually helpful for me at one point, although I needed to have some amount of understanding of monads already to get it (and that "endo" is pulling a lot of weight)
< 1728562900 953638 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's definitely the best definition for getting things done once you know your monad's signature.
< 1728562924 171199 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what is an adjuction
< 1728563133 646941 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Okay, so you should look up the definition at some point, but the short idea is that we've got two categories C and D, and we want to connect them. But we don't have an equivalence.
> 1728563142 323310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143056&oldid=143055 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+63) 10
< 1728563149 635871 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes?
< 1728563183 67087 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe we have parts of equivalences. Like, maybe some of C can be mapped to D such that we can invert the mapping. And maybe we can extend that to a functor from C to D.
< 1728563206 677685 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1728563218 173930 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the inverse could be extended to a functor from D to C. So it's not an equivalence, but there's a "center" between them which is an equivalence.
< 1728563257 431134 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, ok
< 1728563291 322390 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1728563321 320014 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1728563329 357607 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, that's technically all an adjunction is. It's just the pair of functors. And one of the rules of adjunctions is that, if you compose the functors in one direction, you get a monad. In the other direction, you get a comonad.
< 1728563408 72884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let's put it all together with a "free-forgetful" adjunction. Sets and monoids are adjoint, using the functor that sends a set to its free monoid (which is just the type of *lists* of its elements) and the functor that forgets that a monoid is a monoid (so we just have the *set* of lists of elements).
< 1728563428 301479 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728563446 702973 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we compose these functors, then we get an endofunctor from sets to sets. It's a monad! And it's a familiar one: the list monad, encoding a non-determinism effect.
< 1728563447 104674 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :imma watch the monad vid by a byte of code now
< 1728563489 762754 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, have fun. Don't worry if it doesn't all come together yet; there's so much to learn.
< 1728563501 88015 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728563559 796021 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WAIT
< 1728563565 201789 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
< 1728563572 843473 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MONADS ARE RECURSIVE
< 1728563575 143317 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :EXCUSE ME
< 1728563612 874935 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also wut
< 1728563617 721603 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from he video i watched
< 1728563626 846160 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like a monad is just a function
< 1728563633 781706 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specificlly for if's or something
< 1728563649 306991 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1728563651 985634 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so its a type
< 1728563661 454379 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that works like a
< 1728563663 745222 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :function
< 1728563670 311487 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :holy sh*t
< 1728563681 679966 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a functor with a property, technically. If you think of functors as type constructors, then monads are type constructors too.
< 1728563696 138804 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728563740 162153 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Even more technically, the functor *carries* the monad. And it keeps going: the list type constructor carries two applicative lax functors.)
< 1728563752 529391 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1728563753 982329 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so isnt
< 1728563760 24414 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :monads TC?
< 1728563779 809440 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ot atleast TLC with monads
< 1728563827 765936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's literally a category error. A category, not a functor, would have the property of being TC. And most categories we talk about are *not* TC, including the categories we use to talk about programming.
< 1728563853 148641 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728563896 742655 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1728563896 940909 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, you might eventually study Turing categories, which have Turing objects, which are merely things that support that Turing coding from earlier.
< 1728563911 44180 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728563917 11440 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also
< 1728563922 34728 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is a category error?
< 1728563983 252800 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The reason we call them "categories" is because a mathematician (Maclane) wanted to mock a philosopher (Aristoteles). That philosopher used "categories" to collect all of the things in the world in distinct ways, so that we wouldn't confuse one thing for another.
< 1728564004 847400 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1728564061 681322 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In category theory, if we want to relate one thing to another thing structurally, we use a functor. Functors are analogies.
< 1728564073 288390 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :analogies for vat
< 1728564165 642199 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For whatever you like. One functor you'll encounter eventually is the fundamental group, which is kind of like the analogy that physical objects can have holes.
< 1728564181 545096 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1728564183 486511 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i can say
< 1728564206 899749 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A functor I've recently documented is Conway's law, which is the analogy that a system looks kind of like the people that designed it.
< 1728564228 888189 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this function M is an analogy for making the category into a haskell program with to parts: a type defintion, and a recursive lambda function
< 1728564241 629853 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*functor not function
< 1728564265 578378 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might need a good cryptography introduction book. I'm not confused by secret key cryptography, which seems to have a maze of a thousand different primitives all alike (I mean the interface for the primitives, not the specific implementations trying to satisfy their requirements). Public key cryptography is even more confusing, but it's clear
< 1728564266 78919 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :enough that I should try to understand secret key cryptography first.
< 1728564291 240893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could do that. You'd have to show that your functor is homomorphic. Usually that means that it acts on each piece indepedently, but the definition varies from category to category. (Can't skip the fundamentals here.)
< 1728564307 585487 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1728564353 89919 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC homomorphic means that all objects in one "thing" can be mapped to objects in another "thing". in this instancem the firts thing is a category and the second one is the haskell program
< 1728564353 554419 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You'd also have to deal with the problem that there infamously *isn't* a category of Haskell types. This is a classic sore spot for Haskellers: https://wiki.haskell.org/Hask
< 1728564369 371539 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why specifically for haskell?
< 1728564488 307208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, why did they not make it a category? Most programming languages don't give nice categories. Language designers don't really like maths.
> 1728564509 686366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sytra 5* 10New user account
< 1728564510 518485 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless your a esolang desginer
< 1728564513 170813 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think
> 1728564617 400822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143057&oldid=143022 5* 03Sytra 5* (+200) 10
> 1728564645 416885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143058&oldid=143057 5* 03Sytra 5* (-1) 10
< 1728564646 427126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the difficulty seems to be that categories tend to describe total languages, whereas in most cases you want your programming language to be non-total
< 1728564648 694083 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's gotten better in the past few years. But you'll see lots of languages that incorporate maths while refusing to acknowledge the limitations proven by maths.
< 1728564660 276825 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems like all the secret key cryptography primitives are similar to entropy extraction, as in they are deterministic functions that take an input and return a short hash that looks like it's pseudorandom as in it was chosen uniformly in the range and independently on any sets of different inputs, except they aren't really but is close enough
< 1728564660 776113 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that you can pretend they are pseudorandom for practical purposes. Only there are many different variants on this that have restrictions on when exactly you are allowed to pretend that they're pseudorandom, making different assumptions on their input for this etc. So my major problem is that I don't understand why there need to be all those
< 1728564661 275763 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :different restrictions, what the restrictions actually are in specific, and how can you use those primitives safely despite those restrictions. My minor problem is that I don't understand why the primitives seem to only generate short outputs.
< 1728564721 35478 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i got an horrible esolan idea
< 1728564726 386408 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Even in that case, it's only a little bit of effort. Turing categories have Turing codes. Something like f-exprs could be used as those codes.
< 1728564734 260781 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have some esolang to proove things bout the esolang itself
< 1728564741 735203 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the esolang ALWAYS no matter what
< 1728564745 825625 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :prooves itself wrong
< 1728564753 616673 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if thats possible
< 1728564773 899530 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kernel Lisp is based on f-exprs, and by zero coincidence, its author (Shutt) knew a fair amount of category theory and used it to describe the abstractive limitations of language.
< 1728564824 668566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: What really bites about Turing categories is that they don't have working universal properties. Famously: https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-eager-languages-dont-have-products.html
< 1728564903 531643 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: It's probably zero comfort, but all the rules are cargo-culted. It's an open question whether one-way functions from P to NP exist, let alone whether SHA or AES are examples.
< 1728564939 182766 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yeah, you're hitting at the heart of the situation: is pseudorandomness actually computationally hard to examine, or is there a trick to it?
< 1728564988 160653 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :For public key cryptography I don't understand the relation between two different styles: one is public key encryption where you can encrypt data using a public key but you can only decrypt it with the secret key, and can't decrypt knowing just the public key; the other is Diffie-Helman key exchange, where two keypairs are used such that you can
< 1728564988 660915 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compute the same value from either the first secret key and the second public key or the second secret key and the first public key, but you can't get that value from just the two public keys.
< 1728564991 778360 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Yes. But you might want to take a step back and think about whether you really want to write a proof language. I don't know if we have any examples on the wiki that would inpsire you.
< 1728565004 483617 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1728565014 515655 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like idk how to do it
< 1728565017 576315 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would need help
< 1728565019 296281 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot
< 1728565029 37551 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i rlly want to do it beforew somebody else does it
< 1728565045 883653 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also i would name it: "hypocrypt" or however you spell it
< 1728565048 538017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might want to learn a non-esoteric proof language
< 1728565061 689406 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like
< 1728565064 171779 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uuuuh
< 1728565067 242563 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that math mode thing
< 1728565072 749953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Agda, despite being one of the harder ones to use, is one of the mathematically clearest as to what is going on
< 1728565079 529453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sure, but my question isn't whether the primitives are actually pseudorandom enough, that'd be the cryptanalitic level question. I'd like to understand the user side, which is what goals the primitives are trying to satisfy, and what that implies about how I should use them for higher-level operations.
< 1728565140 643165 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Think of the first style as sealing an envelope (classic 80s metaphor) or packing a box (2000s metaphor, used in libsodium). The second style is really a different primitive, key exchange, and it should be compared with stuff like PAKE rather than envelope/box primitives.
< 1728565184 758163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: so I think the fundamental problem is that the easiest-to-work-with primitive is the stream cipher, *but* it is quite hard to create secure stream ciphers, so normally the primitive is a block cipher and there's an attempt to convert it to a stream cipher somehow
< 1728565203 346333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there have historically been a lot of attempts to do that that turned out to be incorrect
< 1728565229 203124 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you help me korvo? plz(idk)
< 1728565281 114349 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, but then I probably need a book to tell me what stream cipher and block cipher mean specifically to understand that
< 1728565314 778320 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Ah, do you have examples? I can make guesses. Like, hash truncation is usually okay unless the hash is weirdly formatted, as in UUID. Compression happens before encryption but can sometimes weaken it; more generally, there's the Cryptographic Doom Principle, which books don't teach.
< 1728565340 516829 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I already have a proof language I'm avoiding writing.
< 1728565355 334967 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a stream cipher is basically a seeded random number generator – in order to use one of those for (symmetric-key) encryption, you need to seed it with a) a symmetric key and b) a random number (to prevent replay attacks)
< 1728565358 829954 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for my concept specifically
< 1728565360 865972 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but also coo
< 1728565361 722344 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it seems like for at least some practical things in public key crypto, you can use either public key encryption or DH exchange, but how interchangable or equivalent are the two?
< 1728565364 111865 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*cool
< 1728565378 852045 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, "before somebody else does it" isn't really inspiring to me. I would *love it* if somebody wrote all the languages and toolchains for me and I didn't have to build any more of them, but that's not gonna happen.
< 1728565402 506707 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just mean
< 1728565404 736670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are various requirements considered important for it to be secure in practice, e.g. you can't predict the key from the output and the random number (which is called the "nonce"), and you can't predict previous output from its current internal state
< 1728565408 659054 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to elaborate on that sentence
< 1728565429 536416 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :before some body else does it so i seem uncreative to myself and others as ive beemn told my esolang are unoriginal
< 1728565463 50762 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: It's really hard for me to imagine interchanging them. Often they complement each other, as in TLS or SSH, or more recently in Magic Wormhole (insert PAKE passphrase, transfer file from one computer to another)
< 1728565477 639911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't remember the full list of requirements and, as korvo says, some of them are probably cargo-cult requiremetns
< 1728565578 795378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a block cipher is basically a function from an n-bit input (for some fixed n) to an n-bit output, that behaves like it's either a) randomly generated or b) a randomly generated bijection
< 1728565604 304725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and block ciphers have no real advantage other than that they're apparently easier to make than stream ciphers, and a lot of research has gone into how you create a stream cipher from a block cipher
< 1728565645 786810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, block ciphers have larger input than output, it's not just an n-bit input but a pair of an n-bit input and a k-bit input
< 1728565658 660013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm
< 1728565660 460802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm confused
< 1728565665 597068 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: No worries. You're not expected to be original yet at your level of study. You might find https://plzoo.andrej.com/ interesting.
< 1728565668 158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I am confusing the cipher, with the permutation it's built from
< 1728565693 399383 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728565697 276396 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill still make it tho
< 1728565698 276490 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1728565702 238678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: fwiw I couldn't do category theory until halfway through my PhD, and even by the end of it I found it hard to think about
< 1728565710 25343 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I keep getting confused between different levels of abstraction that act similarly
< 1728565716 722010 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im still
< 1728565718 617255 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in
< 1728565735 375375 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :public school...and im 13
< 1728565747 133900 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it normal for me to be this deep already?
< 1728565748 627127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. the exponentiation-like operation in a Cartesian-closed category is quite similar to a function operation, but they aren't the same thing and although I conceptually know how they are different, I get confused when trying to reason about it
< 1728565788 86524 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think you've got it all right. We have one proven way of doing stream ciphering (one-time pads), one proven way of doing block ciphering (Feistel networks), and a series of constructions bridging the two styles.
< 1728565847 996671 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think I understood category theory until ekmett explained it to me on the back of a bus at a Google Summer of Code retreat. Even then I didn't understand why mathematicians cared about it until I started on my Russellian Lojban project.
< 1728565870 970764 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what a moment
< 1728565872 605770 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :XD
< 1728565912 669816 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: There's some things I'd expect, like writing some small programs to help with homework or video games or household tasks. But nah, you're not in that deep yet and you're still learning.
< 1728565944 186487 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :phew
< 1728565968 954250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so obviously, if there is a publicly-known random oracle, you can make that into a stream cipher just by giving it the key, nonce and byte position within the output to create a one-time pad
< 1728565984 873811 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that the basic problem of cryptography is to find things that work like random oracles
< 1728566007 113581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: 13-year-old me was very overconfident in their programming abilities
< 1728566018 481587 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1728566075 958821 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it seems like DH exchange is more powerful than public key encryption, because it seems like to emulate public key encryption, you generate a random keypair, do a DH exchange with your secret key and the recipient's public key, and use the resulting value as entropy to generate a symmetric key, the recipient will be able to reproduce the
< 1728566076 459588 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same symmetric key from the public key that you have (which you send with the message) and their secret key. http://www.noiseprotocol.org/ does this in its simplest version, which is the N handshake pattern, and its more complex versions also use DH primitives to send secret messages (though also for authentication).
< 1728566082 173066 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, if you're who I think you are, you made the news. Unlike you or Terry Tao, I only placed like third in the math olympiads, and by the time I was 13, I was merely programming my TI-84 to solve triangles.
< 1728566090 211460 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Y'all're the professors; I'm a dropout.
< 1728566109 614260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think I was older than that when I made the news
< 1728566118 750207 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I am not going to claim that DH exchange is definitely always more powerful than public key encryption, only that it seems like that from a high-level view, and I may not understand some details that change this
< 1728566152 581595 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its hell to be even a little bit of a techy/nerd at my age in dnemark
< 1728566156 466524 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*denmark
< 1728566203 344965 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: no idea, we regulars are old and barely had internet access and certainly did not have Haskell when we were 13 years old
< 1728566231 273723 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its more of a bullying problem
< 1728566232 424752 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1728566241 44283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was younger, my main programming languages were first various BASICs, then VBA for Excel
< 1728566249 197004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after a while I moved onto "C++" but actually basically C
< 1728566250 323807 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Yes! You're totally right. This is a super-subtle nuance. I don't have a good reference, but "Impagliazzo's five worlds" are five different answers to P vs NP, and two of them only differ in whether DH kex is possible.
< 1728566282 401580 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html will have to do.
< 1728566303 74265 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should write an nLab article about this, maybe. They're still sore at me for the article on Conway's law.
< 1728566354 363654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: I had that issue too when I was younger – changing from primary to secondary school helped a lot, so did finding a friend group who was happy to just stand around and talk about random things but had sufficient numbers to deter bullies from getting involved
< 1728566391 926862 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have no freinds everybody hates me and calls me weird
< 1728566397 179470 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1728566427 547588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was me in primary school, I think?
< 1728566440 922523 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i cant got out
< 1728566444 376189 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im very insocial
< 1728566452 262087 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I AM A HORRIBLE BREED OF BRAIN
< 1728566453 338725 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :l.ol
< 1728566470 604977 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo; HEY! I'm a dropout too, not a professor
< 1728566482 313899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I partly solved it by learning about subjects that the other children in school wanted to talk about
< 1728566524 758443 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know basically every subject. thats not sport. denmark is very known as "the hooligan nation" i think i dont like football so its just impossible
< 1728566542 712171 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: re Impagliazzo's five worlds, than you, I'll have to look at that
< 1728566544 934404 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Look up "tall poppy syndrome" and "law of jante". It's not your fault.
< 1728566556 140129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: well, I'm unemployed at the moment – I burned out just before Covid hit, and although I'm gradually recovering, I still have weeks at a time when I don't really feel up to doing anything
< 1728566558 693446 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isnt?
< 1728566564 333068 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:3970:1528:dd02:904d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1728566587 624120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like I have reserves of concentration which burn out whenever I do anything, and take days to weeks to recover
< 1728566598 837201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'm scared to get a job in case I find myself unable to do it
< 1728566633 770643 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo re: for tall poppy syndrome i dont think it applies. i try not to brag to the people in my school. i try atleast
< 1728566674 374737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people used to ask me random mental arithmetic questions in the corridor all the time, which I think may have been technically a form of bullying? or maybe they were just interested to see if I could do it
< 1728566695 662127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am quite good at mental arithmetic, and am not sure which direction the correlation goes (i.e. whether I learned it because people assumed I was good at it or vice versa)
< 1728566723 750876 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pope as a joke ask me nonsensical math as a joke
< 1728566726 594673 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rlly annoys me
< 1728566736 840098 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: "law of jante" would be the right one for Danes. It's not you, it's peer pressure.
< 1728566753 799048 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I can understand that, though I'm not quite in the same situation, instead I do have a job but it's not a very technical one, and even with it I feel like I don't have any energy for hobby stuff or learning, but I also wouldn't have energy for hobby without a job because a dayjob that requires me to show up in the office on most workdays
< 1728566754 296600 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :helps a lot with having a regular daily routine.
< 1728566756 712036 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1728566769 590242 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do note that like
< 1728566777 856769 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i also have an extreme
< 1728566783 913575 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :autism borhter
< 1728566787 122947 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*brother
< 1728566791 975507 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im bullied ofr him
< 1728566804 180356 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ppl thinks im weird cuz my borhter has a mental condition
< 1728566896 774761 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"random mental arithmetic questions in the corridor " => that's new to me, I don't remember that specific form of bullying
< 1728566939 287948 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was secondary school, after I already had a reputation for being good at maths
< 1728566954 497411 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless perhaps you count back when my grandmother tried to drill the multiplication table with me until I finally learned what 7*6 and 7*8 and 7*9 are
< 1728566999 434663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be fair, the basic 100 digit×digit multiplications are one of the few pieces of mathematical facts which are really worth memorising
< 1728567037 109925 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's why I don't count as bullying, even if it might not have been the most effective method to teach me
< 1728567037 588222 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in most cases it is best to learn the underlying rules rather than trying to remember facts individually, but the digit multiplications are so important that learning them by rote as a child is the best way to do it
< 1728567138 958705 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1728567318 91000 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ont eh discussion of is \_(.)-> tc i have a prioblem
< 1728567325 520208 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait no i dont
< 1728567402 175473 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait i do
> 1728567443 44275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143059&oldid=142025 5* 03Cocosbeans 5* (+207) 10/* Racket */
< 1728567451 199580 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aaaaaah
< 1728568038 958103 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1728568051 533710 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cant you just make a esolang by saying this is the axioms
< 1728568058 749452 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and typeing out some random bullsh*t
< 1728568066 216356 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like techically
< 1728568072 44017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would it be a *good* esolang, though?
< 1728568086 300001 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats bascially what https://esolangs.org/wiki/Post_canonical_system is right?
< 1728568091 426642 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, normally esolangs are constructed for some purpose
< 1728568093 536111 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: simply no
< 1728568106 289818 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would bu a stupid joke tho
< 1728568170 586798 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728568198 233224 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728568262 335681 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been a couple of attempts to make languages whose behaviour changes, e.g., every day
< 1728568271 421434 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea ik
< 1728568272 894050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is similar in spirit to a randomly generated esolang
< 1728568277 333541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think any of them worked very well
< 1728568280 914846 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
> 1728568364 544666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAHAHA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143060 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+392) 10Created page with "'''HAHAHA''' is a joke esolang by [[User:Yayimhere]] == axioms(only way to do computation == these are the axioms: fdhsatuivjsaiduagjfds gfvsgyutudtyureqwww >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> (.).(.).(.).(''n'')=(.''n'') ''n''[][] ''n''! = ''n'' AAAAAAAAAA''n''''n'' where ''n''
< 1728568372 869433 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is what i tried
< 1728568379 730658 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :complete bullshit but idc
< 1728568382 584119 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
> 1728568430 709680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAHAHA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143061&oldid=143060 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+69) 10/* axioms(only way to do computation */
> 1728568503 224624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAHAHA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143062&oldid=143061 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+5) 10/* axioms(only way to do computation */
> 1728568541 599768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAHAHA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143063&oldid=143062 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+32) 10/* axioms(only way to do computation lol) */
< 1728568548 156908 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1728568549 843193 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now
< 1728568555 766889 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how to code anything in this
< 1728568556 767505 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1728568564 55603 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you know(lol)
< 1728568599 95028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the problem with these esolangs, is that most people who program esolangs do so because they're looking for interesting or important problems to solve
< 1728568608 596864 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but randomly generated problems usually aren't interesting to solve
< 1728568614 232109 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
> 1728568661 654976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143064&oldid=143005 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+13) 10/* General languages */
< 1728568759 421143 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1728569293 435934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143065 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+444) 10Created page with "''''''(pronounced true) is an very simple esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]] which is based on [[HAHAHA]]. it was created since no other esolangs create esolangs from random bullshit == syntax == a program is made up of a python list, full of strings(without quotes) and th
< 1728569309 220963 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now i made this
< 1728569310 946643 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1728569316 734236 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres something wrong with me lol
< 1728569498 874283 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"behaviour changes, e.g., every day" => I've seen two of these, and they seem like joke, but the kind of joke that's worth to make once just so you know it's possible. One is https://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 , a language that only works until a certain cutoff date, which in that case was just a day after the publication. The other is Acme::Current, a
< 1728569499 375490 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perl module with a function that tells you the current date, but it just hardcodes that date, and every day a new version is released with the next date hardcoded – though this soon got toned down to just one version that you have to reinstall every day.
< 1728569655 941093 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres also TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
< 1728569798 733681 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should tell a bit about the motivation for why I'm trying to look at symmetric crypto. Obviously authentication and encryption are important and can matter for me too, but those aren't the only kinds of high-level tasks that I want to do. I was thinking of a seeded video game, with a game world quasi-infinite, i.e. so large that you can't
< 1728569799 234783 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :generate all of it, but can be generated locally, i.e. multiple servers that share a secret seed but can't communicate generate a world consistent among the servers regardless of what order the adversarial players explore it, and the players (who don't have the secret seed) can't predict certain things in the world without asking a server about it.
< 1728569864 72542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: NH4 does something similar to that, with each level having its own seed so that they can be generated out of order in seeded games
< 1728570009 225265 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The primitive under this is a deterministic quasi-random function, which takes the secret seed and a context, and give a number that seems uniform and independent among different contexts to the player who doesn't know the seed. But the actual world needs a layer over this, because nearby locations in the world are not independent, it's just that
< 1728570009 725582 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :each part of the world is close to independent of everything far enough from that location, you effectively generate it by generating some underlying randomness in a large enough environment around the location and compute the location in a way that the underlying randomness farther from what you've taken into account either can't influence the
< 1728570010 225204 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :world at that location, or it's at least exponentially (in the radius that you look at) unlikely that they influence the world at this location.
< 1728570015 369383 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right
< 1728570078 930024 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so libsodium recently added a high-level function that seems to be suitable for this, https://doc.libsodium.org/key_derivation/hkdf#incremental-entropy-extraction
< 1728570147 980737 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a video game in practice it's usually simpler to *not* do this, by either having the servers communicate, or by making the world small enough that each server can generate all of it (Spelunky 2 does the latter)
< 1728570217 790328 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this probably applies to me as well, as in I can probably use approximations like that, but I'm still interested in how to do this sort of thing well in theory
< 1728570948 602233 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1728570977 318615 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1728570999 130071 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i like weird machines. i did a weird machine for music today
< 1728571130 726782 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728571132 397693 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but
< 1728571163 836318 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could you make a weird machine in say True
< 1728571181 563745 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1728571195 56321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143066&oldid=142990 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+23) 10/* esolangs */
> 1728571266 688969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143067&oldid=143065 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+163) 10/* syntax */
< 1728571822 937369 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1728571903 174060 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1728572189 471841 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dolphy 5* 10New user account
> 1728572359 672974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143068&oldid=143031 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10/* STRING */
> 1728572782 840907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143069&oldid=143058 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-43481) 10Archived old discussions to clean-up page.
< 1728572791 227767 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1728572840 843238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (01-12-2023 to 31-08-2024)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143070 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+43684) 10Archived old discussions, from 1 December 2023, up to 31 August 2024. From [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]
< 1728572841 308674 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728572977 72985 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
> 1728573130 117471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143071&oldid=143069 5* 03Dolphy 5* (+129) 10
< 1728573217 489390 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1728574535 337541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FLOLCODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143072&oldid=143068 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+16) 10/* Types */
< 1728576231 727882 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1728576828 805277 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1728576858 123620 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1728577573 422830 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728577830 186658 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728578243 591083 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1728578877 320030 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1728579416 959704 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:3970:1528:dd02:904d QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1728579675 78831 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1728580896 406344 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.121.158 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1728580995 332586 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:3970:1528:dd02:904d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1728581415 320483 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1728582896 849904 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728583181 326053 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.121.158 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1728584886 660955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1728585149 438867 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728585602 163080 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728585635 196318 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728585824 444214 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1728585851 478445 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728586192 15185 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1728586306 118461 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728586411 319180 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1728586483 905588 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1728586512 184858 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1728588984 454120 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fbd:8001:3970:1528:dd02:904d QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1728589401 707237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143073&oldid=143025 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+22) 10/* Programm forms */
> 1728590572 307987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143074&oldid=143052 5* 03Pointless 5* (+20) 10Change wording from "Our" to "The"
> 1728590635 327897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143075&oldid=143074 5* 03Pointless 5* (+1) 10Change wording from "Our" to "The"
> 1728591771 770558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fysh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143076&oldid=143075 5* 03Pointless 5* (+1) 10added spacing below option 3: using command line
> 1728594190 465789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143077&oldid=143064 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* General languages */ Sort
> 1728594260 479192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAHAHA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143078&oldid=143063 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10Stub, categories
> 1728594388 677532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143079&oldid=143067 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+79) 10Stub, categories
< 1728594497 589268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1728594865 763354 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1728596258 586262 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1728598291 795561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143080&oldid=143009 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (-2) 10
> 1728598804 628722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H. H. P. M. P. Cole/Modulo 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143081&oldid=143080 5* 03H. H. P. M. P. Cole 5* (+161) 10/* All possible small programs */
< 1728600458 448838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit