> 1728950641 755313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07;14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143487&oldid=115952 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+24) 10/* Interpreter */ > 1728950699 778799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[077 bytes XD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143488&oldid=127004 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+17) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1728952031 123690 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I developed the physics analogy a bit more. A jouster occupies a region of tape probabalistically. This is more like analyzing a cellular automaton than doing QM, fortunately; it's classical probability theory. < 1728952208 393922 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale > 1728952319 357507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143489 5* 03She.the.people 5* (+1573) 10Created page with "Ekativ is an esolang created by Me :), the name comes from a misspelling of Executive, I don't know why I just thought that sounded cool. Anyways, this esolang uses a format similar to [[by+]] and each character is called a "command", after each command, the poin < 1728953539 579378 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1728953627 854510 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement < 1728953811 415700 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1728955550 987342 :molson!~molson@2001-48F8-704A-446-CFFA-DF90-2F6-5441-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname > 1728960098 950720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143490&oldid=143489 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+105) 10Categories > 1728960148 332288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143491&oldid=143490 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+17) 10Nowiki < 1728963969 353683 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname < 1728964279 513304 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1728964324 452547 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1728964362 877896 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1728970203 98240 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1728974034 250768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143492&oldid=143491 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10You know you if you use "Me". Then we wouldn't know who made this esolang < 1728974636 516600 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1728976620 875394 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1728976689 868487 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill < 1728976755 784331 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust bad (+)*-1 < 1728976756 360002 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie.bad: points -15.33, score 8.07, rank 47/47 < 1728976792 982463 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, there's now just one cup noodle. < 1728976836 793740 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Manually replaced the other copy with '<' in the repo, and then did the above just to make it recalculate the scores.) < 1728977481 503082 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1728977645 468116 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1728977995 589360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143493&oldid=143481 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+15) 10/* Instructions */ > 1728978144 658680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143494&oldid=143493 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+78) 10/* Instructions */ > 1728978161 181224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143495&oldid=143494 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+1) 10/* Instructions */ > 1728978281 516919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143496&oldid=143495 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+67) 10/* Instructions */ < 1728979553 327889 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1728980643 445666 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1728980947 339903 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1728981086 412891 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale < 1728981695 334275 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.112.14 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1728981906 538271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143497&oldid=143480 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Syntax */ < 1728983089 40091 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot zjoust bad (>)*9((+.)*280>)*28(+)*99999 < 1728983091 484867 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47 < 1728983091 666657 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-bad: points -31.81, score 3.70, rank 47/47\n"} < 1728985628 313003 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname < 1728985879 404309 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust nana (-)*13>>(+)*21(>>[-[-.[(+)*21[-]>]]+>+](-)*21)*13[>[-]] < 1728985879 688388 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx.nana: points -0.76, score 20.63, rank 20/47 < 1728986333 648293 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, that beats ash, I didn't design that deliberately! It's an optimisation of web.test, mostly deliberately speeding up its decoy placing to every 2 cells, and twaeking other parameters to what performs well on the hill, and adding a final simple clearing loop to finish of any remaining flags < 1728987459 112659 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm starting to think tuning to the current hill is inevitable mainly due to the hardcoding of magic loop numbers. You can't generalise the behaviour unless you are sensing something in the environment, fixed behaviour that performs well is not a generalised sol.n, but a statistical best-fit based on the kinds of opponents you happen to encounter. There must be an evolutionary biology term for this sort of thing -- there's no ultimate perfect strategy; < 1728987459 504588 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it depends on the current ecosystem. < 1728987517 58523 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For a program with a main loop, for a given hill you can set it to a large fixed n repetition, and then lower it to find the point where the score changes to discover the maximum useful number of loops to do that well in the current hill, then try doing something else to squeeze out a better score. salpynx.nana takes what was a [] loop from web.test and for the current hill 13 repetitions gives the max score, then it tacks on another strategy (clear) < 1728987517 463044 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which gets some more points, presumably against just one opponent, but I don't know which one. I was optimising by simply observing point value and Markov score. < 1728988130 491516 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only opponent nana draws against is web.test, its 'ancestor' web.test wins every sieve round, nana wins every kettle round. That seems odd, but there must be a good reason. > 1728988199 980300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143498&oldid=143472 5* 03None1 5* (-3) 10 < 1728988377 321093 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1728988578 501973 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :“ […] a BF-Joust-like language that doesn't need the abbreviations and can use short programs, but is still limited” => this made me think of the brainfuck with if-conditionals at first that someone proposed recently, then also brainfuck with arbitrary finite state control flow, which in a bfjoust variant would mean a one-tick test if < 1728988579 197 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :cell under head is nonzero with two goto destinations, as well as a zero-time unconditional goto. < 1728988610 345137 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but neither of those are suitable because they don't allow counter loops without abbreviations, so you must have been thinking of something else < 1728988750 529324 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for the original bfjoust, I'm not sure if "abbreviations" is the right word. abbreviations expanding to a long bfjoust program might be the easiest way to define bfjoust, but the expanded program can be exponentially long, it could overflow the storage of any actual memory if fully expanded, even if you truncate parts of the program that are < 1728988751 29397 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :definitely past the game time limit, so it is mandatory for a bfjoust interpreter to interpret them in some way that's more optimized than just expanding everything < 1728989004 321304 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW < 1728989080 930661 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown < 1728989098 726951 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :counter loops with large counts like (+)*118 are useful for bfjoust, so any language you design probably has to support that, unless you change bfjoust in a significant way > 1728989377 721259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Username display restrictions since when14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143499 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+22) 10test > 1728989485 927301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Execode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143500&oldid=142739 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+58) 10Username display restrictions since when > 1728989999 784159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythOwO14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143501 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+2193) 10Created page with "''Note that pythOwO usually starts with a lowercase letter unless it's at the start of a sentence.'' PythOwO is a programming language with UwU syntax made by [https://github.com/virejdasani virejdasani on GitHub] after a (now archived) Reddit post was post > 1728990107 631654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143502&oldid=143476 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+147) 10 < 1728991212 779706 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1728992344 465515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Genetic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143503&oldid=141350 5* 03Iddi01 5* (+249) 10This has waited for too long > 1728993261 469337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythBrSc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143504 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1082) 10Created page with "'''PythBrSc''' ('''Pyth'''on with '''Br'''ackets and '''S'''emi'''c'''olons) is a esolang by Mihai Popa. After seeing that [[Python]] is a little hard to program and not being C-like enough, I made this! == Syntax == It's Python, but with brackets instead of indenta > 1728993309 575341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143505&oldid=142978 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+45) 10 > 1728993344 27038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143506&oldid=143389 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+15) 10/* P */ > 1728995111 334897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143507&oldid=143498 5* 03None1 5* (+85) 10/* Keywords */ > 1728995175 605683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143508&oldid=143507 5* 03None1 5* (-8) 10 > 1728995201 834172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLOLCODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143509 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10Redirected page to [[]] > 1728997435 870716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143510&oldid=143506 5* 03None1 5* (+19) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ Add language. Note: THIS SECTION IS UNORDERED IN UNICODE SO PLEASE SORT IT < 1728997437 340306 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1728997759 974945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143511&oldid=143496 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (-4) 10/* Instructions */ < 1728997954 510402 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1728997985 425758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143512&oldid=143250 5* 03None1 5* (+83) 10 > 1728998002 482595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143513&oldid=143512 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10 > 1728998548 942907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143514&oldid=143511 5* 03Froginstarch 5* (+25) 10/* Instructions */ < 1728998745 535653 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1728998780 527113 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1728998884 954992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCLOLCODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10956) 10Created page with "CCLOLCODE is designed by PSTF. It is [[LOLCODE]] but in[[wenyan|]]. == Keywords == These are the main keywords. {| class="wikitable plainpres" width="80%" ! Code ! Comment |- | [version] | In all CCLOLCOD < 1728999051 321419 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas > 1728999453 632323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/PSTF Again1514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143516 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3079) 10Created page with "Translated ORK/Mihai Again11|Warning: The registry mount failed and the data is being resV$/?s?=A#m??f5?v??|$o%mW?OO?AX+Tyl pRmSy;'?.??'=y%o(gWv?XB[??q;??X{?}y/}??c@..." > 1728999462 798442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Subleq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143517&oldid=143380 5* 03Superstitionfreeblog 5* (+563) 10/* A shorter HelloWorld program in a loop, length 35 */ > 1728999540 241281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai Again1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143518&oldid=143468 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+671) 10 > 1728999574 856551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143519&oldid=143508 5* 03None1 5* (-50) 10 > 1728999596 662643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143520&oldid=143471 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+106) 10 > 1728999600 830309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143521&oldid=143513 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10 < 1729000075 342548 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1729000090 232242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143522&oldid=143510 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+16) 10 > 1729000239 853431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143523&oldid=142466 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+124) 10 > 1729000664 336691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143524&oldid=143124 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+268) 10 > 1729000834 532723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143525&oldid=143473 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1509) 10 < 1729000895 403544 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :Quit: ^[ > 1729001296 581856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ZCX islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143526&oldid=143014 5* 03Superstitionfreeblog 5* (+515) 10/* */ < 1729003607 681968 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1729003711 494345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143527&oldid=143485 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10/* */ > 1729003907 467400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Basilisk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143528&oldid=62189 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+452) 10/* How will Basilisk do? */ new section > 1729004308 411646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lol waht i cant edit talk pages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143529&oldid=143296 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+103) 10 > 1729004373 873641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lol waht i cant edit talk pages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143530&oldid=143529 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+91) 10 < 1729004400 906670 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it possible to make this esolang?: < 1729004409 564738 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you have an bunch of ascii art the a number < 1729004438 826809 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a patterm recognition program now must find the patternm in all these numbers to ascii art(with all the art in context) < 1729004446 240337 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then find the falue of one thats unspecified < 1729004515 962054 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ascii art > 1729004818 285633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/PSTF Again1514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143531&oldid=143516 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+32) 10 > 1729005842 434772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai Again 1214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143532 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2654) 10Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again15|Warning: Esolang Wiki is far from perfectTN$Q9R7TR/cB/MRVH?%BYV]-iT}~a0^tx2& WJ 36r'AivQH!!kEJR8W*16sl+l_B[=_!&V^O%/]] 1. Take this ..." > 1729005855 542919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03MihaiEso 5* 10moved [[02Translated ORK/Mihai Again 1210]] to [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again12]] > 1729005870 168238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/PSTF Again1514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143535&oldid=143531 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-1) 10/* Contrast */ > 1729005899 411672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143536&oldid=143520 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+71) 10/* Horribly translated variants */ < 1729007058 177729 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1729007840 474527 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1729009450 453249 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1729010714 737760 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1729011014 201304 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpnyx: Surprisingly, most biologists are not aware of the idea of local minima. I think that this is because we don't teach evolution well; they think it exponentially converges towards a global minimum, reaching it in logarithmically-few (~constant) generations. < 1729011066 111677 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When really it's more like exponentially-fast convergence towards a local minimum whose neighborhood is logarithmically-distant (~multiplier to inefficiency) from perfection. < 1729011108 422508 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If evolution optimized those inefficiencies too fast, then we wouldn't have the nice emergent Gaussians for lifeforms, which are required in order to survive system shocks. < 1729011204 272751 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Yeah, probably. I'm noticing a pattern: many of your ideas are based on declarative searches. "Declarative" means that you tell the computer what the output should look like but not how to compute it; "search" means that the computer tries many possibilities and discards those which don't work. < 1729011266 76398 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it would be useful to learn languages that have this builtin, like Prolog (well-known) or miniKanren (simple) or Curry (Haskell-flavored), so that you can more easily try out your ideas in code. < 1729011430 720515 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well < 1729011438 524865 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pattern matching is a defined algorithm < 1729011443 756097 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both in text and images < 1729011455 660158 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some people call < 1729011459 751582 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it pattern searching < 1729011464 70343 :Joao[3]!~Joao003@190.108.99.216 JOIN #esolangs Joao003 :realname < 1729011534 541917 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo ^^ > 1729011861 600353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Basilisk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143537&oldid=143528 5* 03Corbin 5* (+659) 10/* Slitherfangs */ new section < 1729012120 262309 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Sure, assuming we know what those things are. Like, for image pattern matching, we wouldn't want to use pixels, right? < 1729012186 588337 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, just to be explicit, I'm trying to encourage you to *read* and *write* code, since those are the two most fundamental skills for any sort of hacker to develop.) < 1729012858 12568 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1729013678 329206 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea < 1729013684 974959 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like < 1729013738 356675 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its like < 1729013742 419435 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firts a < 1729013744 905548 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*first < 1729013757 293917 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :text pattern thing thing ai < 1729013764 337453 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we use a fucntion fined ai < 1729013771 568713 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that take sone input and returns another < 1729013772 871556 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which < 1729013784 597071 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we do for the pattern to value < 1729013873 241878 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have a copde techer < 1729013879 747400 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill learn minikanren < 1729013882 851463 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after python < 1729014014 644789 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how i would like it to want < 1729014059 106148 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"###" => 1 < 1729014059 622451 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"." => 3 < 1729014060 106327 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"###." => 2 < 1729014061 106295 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so < 1729014079 320877 :wWwwW13!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW < 1729014083 204768 :wWwwW13!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"###.###" should return 1 < 1729014118 895735 :wWwwW13!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk < 1729014335 338561 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1729014435 75520 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1729015015 320999 :wWwwW13!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1729015073 855172 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1729015406 321295 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW < 1729015898 819791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Don't worry about AI or machine learning for now. They aren't going to be helpful to your intuition about how computers work. < 1729015911 782711 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea < 1729015921 750993 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just saying < 1729015923 3243 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its < 1729015925 991259 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"possible" < 1729015958 796953 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, learned functions usually don't work; they're *heuristics*, not specified functionality. < 1729016002 365233 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best way to think about AI is that it is "probably approximately correct", or PAC. You can search for "PAC learning" if you want to dig into the maths, although you probably need some linear algebra first. < 1729016018 754737 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea < 1729016020 168019 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like < 1729016026 747039 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if its PAC idk < 1729016029 691172 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*idc < 1729016031 394109 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like > 1729016036 289362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythBrSc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143538&oldid=143504 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+9) 10 < 1729016036 623310 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as long as it "works# < 1729016042 987006 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*"works" < 1729016052 162641 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it *doesn't* work. PAC is a *limitation* on what can be learned. > 1729016057 703806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythBrSc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143539&oldid=143538 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10 < 1729016076 610249 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh fu < 1729016111 589584 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, learning only is possible when there is input data to learn from. We don't know what ChatGPT was trained upon, so it's not reasonable to specify your esolang via ChatGPT. < 1729016132 981014 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea < 1729016135 561395 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik < 1729016146 549686 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1729016151 608618 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i gut a funkin weird idea < 1729016156 204435 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for how this could work < 1729016161 357880 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :simpler version tho < 1729016174 872178 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you account everyspace as empty asn deveryyihng else as not then use A* on it < 1729016188 926206 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait no < 1729016190 733780 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forget that < 1729016194 302488 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well < 1729016201 690112 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another idea rated impossible < 1729016218 695072 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, some spaces can be searched. But you have to define the space carefully. Usually we want to exploit the toplogy of the space somehow. < 1729016238 90285 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The key phrase for that is "searchable set". The maths is going to be tough, though. < 1729016245 866822 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fuuuuu < 1729016290 703416 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu- < 1729016412 624396 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have no dieas and i have nothing to do < 1729016415 962787 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1729016468 633359 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now moi sad < 1729016470 52813 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::( < 1729017077 262484 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: You could read or write code. < 1729017094 808726 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1729017105 226593 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill just try to write some shit in haskell to learn it < 1729017260 222171 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're out of class, you could read up on MENACE, a toy machine-learning system. MENACE learns how to play noughts-and-crosses/tic-tac-toe perfectly! But sometimes it fails to learn. < 1729017294 951056 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would rather write haskell rn idk < 1729017301 260450 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill check menace later < 1729017303 556317 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Matt Parker has a great video demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU and an older set is documented here https://www.mscroggs.co.uk/blog/19 < 1729017319 228042 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. Have fun. < 1729017327 748999 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe < 1729017482 637907 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would like som help(chatgpt bad for climate) so ummm. : < 1729017483 138147 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Main.hs:1:1: error: < 1729017483 637523 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :    Parse error: module header, import declaration < 1729017484 139491 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :    or top-level declaration expected. < 1729017484 638092 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :  | < 1729017485 137298 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :1 | print((:[]).(\x -> x.x)) < 1729017485 637528 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :  | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < 1729017702 922113 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how to fix tht < 1729017720 393449 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What are you reading to learn Haskell? I'll tell you that the given error explains exactly what went wrong. < 1729017729 61764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: haskell is like C, it doesn't like top-level expressions, instead it runs main in its IO system < 1729017736 344759 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1729017739 258103 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea < 1729017749 473000 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: NOTHING. idk im crazy < 1729017895 888886 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: "crazy" doesn't mean anything. Anyway, when I was your age, I learned languages like Perl and Java one-by-one by reading books which were intended to teach them. There are a dozen decent Haskell books; for you, maybe https://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters is a good first step. < 1729017924 936357 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont buy books for programming < 1729017932 498410 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i get fuckin stressed for some reason < 1729017936 342099 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dont ask me why < 1729017967 580820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why? < 1729017970 959286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not going to ever link you to something that you have to pay to read. LYAH ("Learn You A Haskell"), the above link, is free to read online. The author gave their permission, even! < 1729017988 196849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: heh, that sounds like you're quite young < 1729017989 747583 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1729017991 925873 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice < 1729017999 181442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to guess the syntax of a programming language is probably the second worst way to learn it < 1729018018 161049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@where lyah < 1729018018 220339 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ or the slightly updated fork https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/ < 1729018020 210824 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill just as i get errors < 1729018022 37944 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like < 1729018026 179691 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :search it uo < 1729018028 336195 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :find out why < 1729018031 93417 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and go on < 1729018033 680528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@where rwh < 1729018033 743197 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ https://github.com/tssm/up-to-date-real-world-haskell < 1729018036 658124 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like an ai /j < 1729018037 982051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@where gentle < 1729018038 50106 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/ < 1729018039 775568 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Rather that wWwwW is young. I have a GEB on my shelf, for example, and I think all computer scientists should have one in their native language; but it might not be in their budget, and they won't need it until undergrad. < 1729018137 470441 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Other books that are expensive but I found worth the cost include the OpenGL Red Book, "Applied Cryptography" (the red one), and a few other textbooks. > 1729018137 868029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143540&oldid=143497 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-32) 10/* Hello, world! */ < 1729018151 994003 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: are there really Haskell books that old? > 1729018161 164501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143541&oldid=143540 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-33) 10/* Cat program */ < 1729018166 732206 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, also books like "On Numbers and Games" (ONAG) and Smullyan's puzzle books, which are small enough to take on the bus or train. < 1729018173 903633 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The last one is not actually recommended. I just like that it claims to be "gentle" and then assumes an undergraduate level TCS/PL background. < 1729018201 743236 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wait, which one do you recommend? there's a broken reference there < 1729018238 468984 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Oh, you meant the "when I was your age". I was a teen in the 90s and learned all the hip languages at the time: Java, Perl, PHP, JS, and eventually Python. < 1729018248 723640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in this context, probably lyah despite the horrendous grammar in the title > 1729018265 169969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143542&oldid=143541 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Syntax */ < 1729018282 684659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but RWH may offer better motivation maybe < 1729018306 284187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not really read either of them because by the point they were written I was already fairly comfortable in Haskell < 1729018325 239436 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RWH (and its OCaml sibling) are not very good books IMO. They want to be all "practical" and "for software engineers", which means adopting a lot of bad verbose patterns and outdated libraries. < 1729018347 94410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION shrugs < 1729018356 872255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are for different audiences < 1729018365 719962 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LYAH is very wrong, but wWwwW will find it easier to understand. It follows the little-lie big-lie style of teaching. < 1729018367 12348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(all three of the above) < 1729018427 842155 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Java, Perl PHP, JS, Python sound possible, it was the Haskell that surprised me < 1729018437 338147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: It occurs to me that you might not know about compression yet. That could be another interesting topic for you! There are fundamental limits to compression, and compression is equivalent to whatever AI chatbots are doing, so there are fundamental limits on chatbots too. < 1729018438 585315 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: for you, the gentle introduction is probably a good fit, except it's quite ancient by now < 1729018443 669018 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION little lie, big lie < 1729018470 895205 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k < 1729018472 958821 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :will do < 1729018477 138221 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some other time < 1729018483 423237 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yeah... I think it covers Haskell 2010, at least. < 1729018522 593662 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"RWH" is a book? isn't that like a monad in the standard library? < 1729018556 529021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The monad (transformer) is RWS, a combination or Reader, Writer, and State < 1729018597 310111 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I do like the idea of Reader, Writer, and Ham. < 1729018695 88159 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ham? as in like a Bacon Lettuce Tomato monad transformer or as in ham radio? < 1729018714 550808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm mostly talking from hunger, but radio is good too. < 1729018856 686868 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whats a good esolang to learn? < 1729018867 183348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :none < 1729018882 363667 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...im ignoring that < 1729018917 264149 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're much better off getting started in some mainstream language < 1729018933 268564 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it takes less time < 1729018936 149990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which will a) be more useful and b) have far better resources to learn from < 1729018942 122466 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when im bored in an afternoon < 1729018960 584090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea of being bored is so funny < 1729019245 509592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no it's not, but it probably depends on what kind of family you have. my grandmother can now barely leave his apartment, and she's been bored even when she could walk outdoors in good weather. < 1729019264 235302 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/his ap/her ap < 1729019414 797267 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Sure, I was thinking of younger people than that who have access to internet capable devices basically around the clock, compared to the olden days where you could actually end up stuck in a room with nothing to do that you haven't done before. < 1729019453 144603 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :am i the only one who just rlly wants to tie music into programming and htne just gotsooo exited when i found out sonic pi existed > 1729019475 251987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143543&oldid=143492 5* 03She.the.people 5* (+151) 10 < 1729019986 962038 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1729020006 215607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143544&oldid=143543 5* 03She.the.people 5* (+101) 10 > 1729020979 684471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Snakel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143545 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+176) 10Created page with "
1729021065 657824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143546&oldid=143545 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10 > 1729021085 115415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143547&oldid=143546 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-3) 10 > 1729021104 822942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143548&oldid=143547 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10 > 1729021183 992289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143549&oldid=143542 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-280) 10/* Syntax */ > 1729021246 790147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143550&oldid=143549 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-213) 10/* Examples */ > 1729021282 382300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143551&oldid=143550 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10 > 1729021471 982112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143552&oldid=143353 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-251) 10/* Snakel */ > 1729021769 752054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143553&oldid=143552 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+146) 10/* Snakel */ < 1729021789 558614 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname > 1729021947 4739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143554&oldid=143553 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-9) 10/* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */ > 1729021955 142954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143555&oldid=143554 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* Languages with halting instructions/infinite loops */ > 1729022075 285581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143556&oldid=143555 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10) 10/* 4ME */ < 1729022093 888990 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: "whats a good esolang to learn?": serious (i think) ans: bf, a string re-writing lang like Thue, or Lisp. They should each give you some moderately satisfying results quickly by playing, and they should all indirectly reveal real comp-sci intuition (which applies to very many esolangs, and real-world stuff) < 1729022153 827901 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bf and Thue you can write using the esowiki article only, Lisp will prob require a book, but the Lisp book is nice and firendly < 1729022164 597701 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and free online too?) < 1729022231 329755 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing your own bf Hello World from scratch will prob put in you in the top x% of esolangers, where x is quite small < 1729022346 606499 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even writing some Deadfish examples, understanding the overflow through experimentation, and running it in one of the interpreters on that page is probably a non-trivial excercise and not a complete waste of time < 1729022390 925487 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... then write your own interpreter in _any_ language eso or otherwise < 1729022558 422031 :trumae!~Thunderbi@170.231.88.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1729022886 257463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143557&oldid=143556 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10/* Snakel */ < 1729022889 658752 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: which lisp specifically < 1729022975 737100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd insist on a Scheme, and not Racket. Students need to learn about lexical scope and hygenic macros first. < 1729022999 340052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In this case, though, maybe Racket's an acceptable compromise, since it leads easily into making toy interpreters. < 1729023134 584761 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: common lisps have lexical scope too, so that doesn't really explain why scheme < 1729023420 249021 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: That's fair. I suppose it's only a feeling then. I also wouldn't recommend a Kernel Lisp either, even though those are also lexical and hygenic in their own way. < 1729023462 618887 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1729023530 769804 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I mean, that itches, but I'm not strong enough with CL to discuss it. I could point out that e.g. Python is lexically scoped, which is true, but also comes with several caveats like class scope, module scope, and lambda quirk. > 1729023610 261912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143558&oldid=143544 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+146) 10Categories < 1729023691 501101 :sprout!~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :python's scope rules are debatable > 1729023870 889847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythOwO14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143559&oldid=143501 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+137) 10Formatting, see also, categories < 1729024032 296044 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would actually recommend python3 as a beginner language these days < 1729024256 342045 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I highly recommend Python 3 as linguafranca and for replacing pseudocode with something executable. < 1729024682 438658 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: .. hmm, I'm just waking up, so the Lisp I was thinking of was "the one with the cartoons in the book"... so I actually meant Forth, sorry > 1729024814 544574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'xxx' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143560&oldid=135361 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+100) 10/* See also */ > 1729024838 635011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143561&oldid=143174 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-74) 10/* See also */ > 1729024997 14391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143562&oldid=141847 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10 < 1729025013 626363 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: wait, forth? ok, then I have to ask what modern forth interpreter you'd suggest. I don't use Forth > 1729025027 621765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143563&oldid=143562 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-44) 10I am an absolute idiot > 1729025064 530154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143564&oldid=143356 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* ppl i like and dont like */ > 1729025075 418273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143565&oldid=143564 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* ppl i like and dont like */ < 1729025078 573392 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. I think I've got myself _very_ confused... what's Forth (with DROP DUP etc) but with Lisp like syntax ... I think I'm thinking of a custom esolang < 1729025146 850676 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh... I don't see how that would work < 1729025208 103171 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you mean something like postscript or GML, which use a forth-like data stack but have first-class functions < 1729025225 274185 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or possibly something like Joy, Cat, or Kitten, which have [] quotations. < 1729025226 125162 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you'll have to rethink this after you woke up properly < 1729025247 702808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might recommend Factor. It's not technically a Forth, but it's a wonderful spiritual successor. < 1729025384 838606 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, as for lisps, I don't think macros are particularly important for a beginner, in fact they might be distracting from learning how functions work which is more important. purely as a language without extra libraries I prefer scheme over common lisp, but I'm not sure if my reasons for that apply if you consider it as a beginner language. < 1729025453 476863 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was trying to recommend a traditional stack based language, but Forth maybe isn't the best now that I look at the book again. I remember the book being fun, but I've confused it with some simpler esolang (with lots of brackets) < 1729025548 389650 :sprout!~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that would be egel < 1729025552 390429 :sprout!~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs ::/ < 1729025554 409244 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not very familiar with forths, as far as I know they're low-level, and as a beginner language I'd prefer something high-level that has dynamically allocatable structures and arrays with bounds checking. python isn't perfect for this either. < 1729025646 443586 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sprout: is egel even stack-based in the Forth sense? < 1729025686 387197 :sprout!~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it has graph rewrite semantics < 1729025969 56570 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1729026218 693001 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1729026488 88706 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: The real issue that I found (and why I wrote [[Cammy]] instead of making dialects of Joy) is that Forths with quotations are 1D. They can't represent applicative trees without forcing the programmer to explicitly build each branch and check that it's got the correct arity. < 1729026503 330428 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At some point, S-expressions or some other applicative-tree syntax are preferable. > 1729026618 351082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143566&oldid=140770 5* 03Corbin 5* (+944) 10Document closure quirk. I love the smell of redlinks in the morning. < 1729026642 296280 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both egel and cammy are sparking memories, I think I've imagined a single simple language based on a number of explorations with those, Scheme, Lisp, and Forth, and WIP esolang ideas that were never completed < 1729026848 256031 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also not quite convinced that lexical scoping (i.e. for nested functions) is so important for a beginner, but that's more plausible than macros, and so many languages support lexical scoping and the alternatives are worse so you might as well have it for almost free < 1729027039 257961 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1729027113 27369 :Joao[3]!~Joao003@190.108.99.216 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1729027245 694953 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I failed at giving an example of an easy to pick up 'toy' stack-based language that you can just type stuff into a REPL and get satisfying responses immediately, I feel like I've had that experience, but there's not a single place I can point to to get started quickly, unfortunately. < 1729027360 360710 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't HP programmable calculators do that? I'm not sure, I never used one, and I don't know much about stack-based languages > 1729027527 209852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythBrSc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143567&oldid=143539 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-9) 10I'm a male. < 1729028106 418700 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: "Forths with quotations" is bringing back lots of memories, I think this is something that multiple people were investigating at one point < 1729028562 563067 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: write some bf programs, and try string re-wrtiting. String rewiriting is fun, you can blow up your display with lots of crazy output, and by playing with it enough you might get the Zen-like moment of understanding how it even relates at all to computation and programming, which is nice. Deadfish too can be worthwhile if you use it to understand or write interpreters, (even though it is very silly). < 1729028878 494368 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.. other than that, you might have to learn a non-eso language, which is not a bad thing, but likely to be a bit more involved, (the 'none' option suggested above) > 1729029191 137158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jumpy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143568 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+1930) 10Jumpy < 1729029360 338601 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwW: Try different langauges REPLs (Read, Evaluate, Print, and Loop) interfaces and you can see if any interest you. There are often online versions, https://try.scheme.org/ or Lua https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lua_terminal_online.php , no real language recommendation, just try multiple to get a feel for whats out there. Lua is used for scripting many games, incl. Roblox (I don't know what you're into, Roblox just seems likely more relevant than < 1729029360 737070 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forth in almost any context...) > 1729029441 658748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jumpy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143569&oldid=143568 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+1) 10Headings > 1729029509 640232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jumpy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143570&oldid=143569 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+8) 10More Headings > 1729029580 930920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jumpy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143571&oldid=143570 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+1) 10typo > 1729029760 376331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143572&oldid=143551 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+120) 10/* Examples */ > 1729029777 284111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143573&oldid=143572 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Truth-machine */ > 1729029836 337538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AndrewBayly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143574&oldid=109444 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+116) 10Added Jumpy > 1729030166 242482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Jumpy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143575&oldid=143571 5* 03AndrewBayly 5* (+24) 10Added category < 1729031154 23559 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no idea if wWwwW is a log reader, but for music programming, Orca looks interesting and potentially fun: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Orca I have not used it, but I like 100rabbits. Learning Supercollider is on my todo list for a serious audio language. I have used Nyquist (XLISP) for audio, but there are probably more modern alternative. < 1729031175 720239 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Csound is another programming language for dealing with audio. < 1729031200 619078 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If they were thinking of music as a communication medium, then there's a rich history there too, with Solresol as a notable example due to having a vocabulary. < 1729032215 750453 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1729032368 416789 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1729033903 650437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143576&oldid=143527 5* 03None1 5* (+262) 10/* */