list let g lv 5 3 3 loop d 1 while is d less than 64 do list let g lv lv 0 g 1 3 3 let d lv 0 d 1 all print number g all 
 1729080084 607938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143590&oldid=143536 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+64) 10
< 1729080126 248852 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729080206 252479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143591&oldid=143519 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-43) 10
< 1729080268 308756 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm exploring techniques, and locating ones that work in short programs. I named this latest one 'unstable' because I think it might move down very rapidly based on the 3 loops at the end which I think were over-optimised 
< 1729080359 335143 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1729080362 521797 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't intending to 'cheat', but I'd be interested what others think, I was analysing progam performance vs. length and trying to extract what works
< 1729080376 321159 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1729080446 9102 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: to be clear what I proposed is neither of those, I proposed a set of fixed programs that do participate in the scoring and ranking of the variable programs, but aren't rotated out of the hill even if they're worse than other programs.
< 1729080816 842588 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :while exploring this, I had an idea of length classes, behemoths that try and cover every strategy in one class, and lightweight algorithms that try to do well with as few commands as possible in another. Size doesn't seem to be a big predictor of score though. There seems to be a moderate size required for being smart, and I think there's a limit on how well very short programs can possibly do
> 1729081016 77534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143592&oldid=143582 5* 03None1 5* (+329) 10/* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10  Mor ary!  */  I've translated your code
> 1729081029 843594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143593&oldid=143592 5* 03None1 5* (+235) 10/* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10  Mor ary!  */
> 1729081054 978970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143594&oldid=143593 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10  Mor ary!  */
< 1729081115 243132 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re. remixing, the performance ended up being substantially different from the originals that I thought it was worth submitting, if it only jumped a couple of places I agree that would be annoying. my first got 20 place better than its original, and this latest jumped 9 places, which was harder to do further up the list
< 1729081225 608085 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1729081887 764312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/None1 again814]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143595 5* 03None1 5* (+720) 10Created page with "1. [[Translated ORK/Mihai Again12|]] 
smb://foo.example.com Required virtual size does not fit available size: requested=(%d, %d), min=(%d, %d), max=(%d, %d) xo ching xwo:n it diL ymeertdings nurse. Alive? Use page cache The man ate bread.
  2.
< 1729081906 597725 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1729081938 333621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai Again1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143596&oldid=143533 5* 03None1 5* (+70) 10
> 1729082308 913024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Username display restrictions since when14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143597&oldid=143499 5* 03None1 5* (-22) 10There's no point trying to violate the rules
> 1729082408 636592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Execode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143598&oldid=143500 5* 03None1 5* (-58) 10
< 1729082678 336267 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729083020 145160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Basilisk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143599&oldid=143537 5* 03None1 5* (+290) 10/* Slitherfangs */
< 1729084662 744477 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729084672 320813 :Birb!~Birb@shef-17-b2-v4wan-169232-cust98.vm3.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Birb
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> 1729086835 281628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143600 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5659) 10Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Tic Tac Toe}} Tic-tac-toe is a three-in-a-row game invented by the Germans that requires players to take turns to draw crosses or circles on a nine-grid square board, and whoever first arranges three identical marks into h
> 1729086886 664844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143601&oldid=143600 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
> 1729086935 58168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143602&oldid=143601 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-3) 10
< 1729087559 777330 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729089360 559262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143603&oldid=143521 5* 03None1 5* (+220) 10/* Languages that I know how to write */
> 1729089406 240971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143604&oldid=143603 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Natural Languages */
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< 1729089810 320395 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1729089960 446890 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.68.82 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1729090311 264665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143605 5* 03None1 5* (+714) 10Created page with "In fact, there is a very simple strategy to not lose in Tic Tac Toe when you play first. Pick the square in the middle, then split the chessboard into 4 parts, like this:  112  4X2  433 Then, you always pick the other square in the part the opponent 
> 1729090418 683977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143606&oldid=143605 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10
< 1729092281 210023 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok, I have a silly idea. Consider a language that is memory-safe, dynamically typed, and allows you manage user-defined composite types only by reference, like perl/python/ruby or scheme. Except imagine it insists on the by reference part even more, so there are no string value types, only mutable string buffer reference types. So far so good.
< 1729092285 471008 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.68.82 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1729092408 683466 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now change this to an esolang by not allowing destructors, whether built-in or user-defined. If you are holding a reference to heap, you'll have to explicitly call a freeing (or reference count decreasing) function on it. For a type that holds a unique reference, that freeing function will clear the reference too for memory safety; if there are
< 1729092409 181599 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :reference-counted allocations then you may need something slightly more complicated.
< 1729092449 433750 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why? I don't know, I don't think this has any advantage, it just occurs to me that this part of the language space could theoretically exist but it seems underexplored.
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< 1729092490 117039 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you fail to call the destructor explicitly, the resources owned will just get leaked forever.
> 1729092703 291691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Superstitionfreeblog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143607&oldid=143580 5* 03Superstitionfreeblog 5* (+300) 10
> 1729092763 396808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143608&oldid=141617 5* 03B jonas 5* (+148) 10/* General Ideas */
< 1729092815 271636 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This would be easier to design and implement than some other unusual combinations of properties by the way.
< 1729093176 563850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: This occurs in e.g. RPython, when allocating buffers for FFI calls. The pattern is technically RAII or context management, but it feels like writing a callback.
< 1729093211 908102 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, here's my record for nested RAII in RPython; it's only five deep: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/typhon/rsodium.py
< 1729093281 644733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is sugar for nasty explicit alloc and free with exception-handling, mostly.
< 1729093352 608729 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure if that counts as five deep, since the five memory blocks that you allocate don't depend on each other, so you could write it as just one with statement.
> 1729093449 499207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143609&oldid=138455 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+64) 10/* See also */
< 1729093462 440209 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's fair. I don't know if that actually works in RPython, but it should.
> 1729093465 667109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143610&oldid=143609 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-64) 10/* See also */
< 1729093504 369229 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but also interesting, thanks for showing that code
< 1729093827 340192 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1729094183 479395 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729095194 873938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1729095533 466270 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unrelated topic, this blog seems interesting, it talks mostly about printing and scanning machine binary floating point numbers as decimal and why both are difficult: https://www.exploringbinary.com/
< 1729095641 863422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :several years ago there a couple of decimal float constants were making the Internet programming news because programming languages that were expected to be mature had issues parsing them
< 1729095652 513267 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :either returning the wrong value or even entering an infinite loop
< 1729095746 200671 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sort of knew that these were hard problems, but that blog convinced me that they are even harder than I thought
< 1729095758 65969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it's actually discussed on the blog you linked
< 1729095767 313349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. https://www.exploringbinary.com/java-hangs-when-converting-2-2250738585072012e-308/
< 1729096021 869314 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.68.82 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
< 1729096058 745471 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :my claim to fame here is that I found that sqlite3 had a bug where it sometimes incorrectly compared a double to an uint64_t, which can lead to a corrupted index for a table indexed on a column that has both floating point and integer values. usually you don't want to deliberately have both values mixed, but it can easily happen by accident because
< 1729096059 245767 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :some sqlite3 expressions convert a string to a number in a way that whether the result is integer or double depends on the value of the string, or you can get a similar problem if you insert into an sqlite3 table from another language that does the same, such as perl or lua.
< 1729096306 30139 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perl actually also has the same comparison bug (or used to have it last I looked), which means sort {$a<=>$b} might give a result that's not sorted if you pass it strings, but it's less clear if it counts as a bug there, because sort {$a<=>$b} can also give a result that's not sorted if you pass it floats some of which are NaN, and that's probably
< 1729096306 530076 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :by design. maybe I should report it as a bug to perl, but I don't really have the guts to report bugs to perl anymore.
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< 1729096485 103354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was an analysis (that ended up informing decisions made by the Rust standard library) of what sorting algorithms did if given a comparison function that wasn't a total order – some of them ended up duplicating elements, entering an infinite loop, or crashing
< 1729096542 953576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently, at one time, this prevented Android phones from making emergency calls in some situations – they were trying to sort a list to determine the best program/function to use to make the call, but broke ties arbitrarily using hashcode
< 1729096616 982947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which seems fine, except that the tiebreak comparison was implemented as (x.hashCode() - y.hashCode()) without guarding against integer overflow, so if there were three tied elements in the list, they could be cyclically greater than each other (according to the comparison) if one or two of the comparisons overflowed on the subtraction and the others didn't
< 1729096628 265611 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and apparently this was enough to send the sort algorithm into an infinite loop
< 1729096672 763151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust now has a requirement for sorting algorithms in its standard library that, no matter how badly behaved the comparison function, they always either return a permutation of their inputs or panic
< 1729096694 573460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and they're encouraged to panic if they notice that the comparison function isn't transitive, although of course a non-transitive function won't always be detected as that would involve extra comparisons)
< 1729096734 342392 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a Dave Ackley paper about that, too. Not the Movable Feast Machine, but about bubble sort and robustness under errors.
< 1729096833 351606 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1729096833 356085 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1729096833 356142 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had asn
< 1729096834 947346 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I think it might be this one? But I could have sworn it was a little longer and directly challenged the reader more. https://www.cs.unm.edu/~ackley/papers/ftxs2014-accepted.pdf
< 1729096836 879482 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :100 procent doable idea
< 1729096840 500435 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for an esolang
< 1729096842 653827 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i swaer
< 1729096845 389097 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*swear
> 1729096972 397666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143611&oldid=143573 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+370) 10/* Syntax */
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< 1729097120 548531 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW71: What's up?
< 1729097144 505531 :wWwwW71!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1729097244 813144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm trying to work out who or what manually wrote that ping timeout message
< 1729097248 37121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't one of Libera's
> 1729097575 311829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Olus200014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143612&oldid=143317 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+2771) 10
> 1729097687 417026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dolphy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143613&oldid=143197 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (-34) 10Redirected page to [[User:DolphyWind]]
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< 1729097808 722846 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what it is is ou have unicode chars and you do topological transfomation opne them
< 1729097973 646073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't that depend on the font?
< 1729097983 31361 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1729097986 794824 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :jusdt predefine a font
< 1729098008 183973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think one of cpressey's languages is based on the topological genus of the characters used in the program
< 1729098173 786848 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wunnel
< 1729098194 512903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it only cares whether there's a hole in the character or not, and doesn't specifically define the font
< 1729098537 633631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… I think one technique for designing esolangs is to start with an idea and build a language that works with the idea, and work out what effect the idea has on the rest of the language – but sometimes the answer is "there isn't much of an effect", and then the idea works better as something to mix into another language to spice it up a bit rather than something that makes a language on its own
< 1729098564 193558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of people dislike LOLCODE because the although programs look funny, it's just a strange syntax for a fairly normal language
< 1729098616 519691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Ook! )
< 1729098620 287356 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although the way in which it achieves TCness is weird – the specification sets a limit on integer sizes but not on string lengths, so the only actual means of infinite storage is forming large strings via concatenation, and the only way to retrieve it is to compare those strings to each other)
< 1729098639 706655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think that was the first BF syntax substitution? or at least the first widely known one
< 1729098652 994895 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that's an interesting idea, once
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< 1729098658 32647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but has been really done to death and beyond in the years since
< 1729098673 866948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Plus the next esolang by DMM was Piet
< 1729098758 366286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even then, Piet is mostly just an interesting syntax on a fairly basic 2D imperative language
< 1729098776 623321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way it does conditionals is less interesting than I expected/remembered
< 1729098834 544723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it still did something that hadn't been done
< 1729098848 576572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1729098880 673430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, for some reason in our article on Piet, the computational class section is at the start, before the specification
< 1729098911 385782 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( The next ω Brainfuck substitutions. )
< 1729098912 662943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's bothering me a bit but I'm not sure whether it's worth fixing (and might even be a form of meta-commentary – the article is upside-down, and there's a discussion of upside-down Piet paintings later on)
< 1729098930 483011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing about ω is that even after those occur, there will still be an ω+1
< 1729098982 802683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was working on an esolang that had transfinite loops, but gave up that approach when I realised that it could solve the halting problem and therefore I probably wouldn't be able to implement it
< 1729099014 391313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the specification part is newer, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73573 vs. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73620
> 1729099068 928993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Olus200014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143614&oldid=143612 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+42) 10
< 1729099103 547459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&oldid=73573&diff=73620
< 1729099117 876270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just looks like the spec was added in the wrong plce?
> 1729099402 288180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Olus200014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143615&oldid=143614 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+35) 10I just realized my grammar is wrong, oops
< 1729099425 402666 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh i have no ideas for esolangs
< 1729099432 341174 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :everything has been done or is impossible
> 1729099740 831050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Olus200014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143616&oldid=143615 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+0) 10Fix grammar again
< 1729099792 713273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a reason I tend to take a while between making esolangs
< 1729099810 378560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been mentally working on the BF Joust derivative I was talking about recently
< 1729099812 142699 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its my only activity
< 1729099813 353859 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Why would you put such expectations on yourself? Historically, linguists don't construct languages until they're twice your age.
< 1729099848 370551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even Gauss and Euler were not inventing new branches of maths at that age.
< 1729099860 761432 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea ik
< 1729099874 273261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my plan is for it to effectively be a state machine, + 1 counter, + 1 pointer to the tape (which can only be set by updating it to your own current location): conditionals can test the current cell value (time-consuming, like in BF Joust), or the counter, distance from the pointer, or distance from your own flag (non-time-consuming)
< 1729099876 65285 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i hate just scrollin yt shorts
< 1729099896 186208 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think what you need is a large project you can work on
< 1729099911 315926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was your age I was writing terrible RPG clones in Microsoft Excel
< 1729099918 106879 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i do have my conlang but like idk what t work on
< 1729099936 131219 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also i (not to brag) is too fast with everything
< 1729099940 712469 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like i make music in one day
< 1729099987 303436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, this is part of what lead me to eventually give up on Microsoft software – I was basically pushing the tools I was working on to the limit of what they could do, then it would break in the next version
< 1729100009 764489 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1729100043 366808 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729100112 338143 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey korvo kan you link me to MENACE?
< 1729100133 933452 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Excel might seem like a horrible choice, but it's a marginally workable programming language (Visual Basic) combined with a persistent storage mechanism (the spreadsheet cells), combined with a mechanism that's just-about capable of creating a UI
< 1729100159 433080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can resize the cells to be square and have the language change the background colors
< 1729100163 99993 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and put text in them
< 1729100201 513375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think very few programming platforms provide this combination of features in an easily accessible way – but it's a pretty good combination for experimenting children
< 1729100224 332389 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also i can do nothing cuz
< 1729100226 685730 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :two out of three isn't hard
< 1729100231 815084 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im danish and have a 12 yr old high serria
< 1729100323 913292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would encourage you to write programs, though, using whatever technology you have available – even if (maybe especially if!) it's terrible
< 1729100336 226548 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like
< 1729100339 59200 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its not that its bad
< 1729100342 143382 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :theres just
< 1729100343 373573 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :none
< 1729100345 621377 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk why
< 1729100348 339215 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729100484 263602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I was somewhat older, I tried to learn Python using the bots in this channel
< 1729100502 473177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which meant writing Python programs all on one line, which didn't do much for the readability
< 1729100518 899218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was using exec("") and putting spaces and newlines into the string, using single-space indentation
< 1729100743 970466 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9c-_neaxeU
< 1729100758 18177 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thx
< 1729101277 548106 :CanisCorvus!~CanisCorv@shef-17-b2-v4wan-169232-cust98.vm3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729101312 633836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143617&oldid=143611 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+31) 10/* How to get Snakel */
< 1729101495 86553 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re sorting functions, the sorting function in old versions of perl had a similar problem, in particular it could access array out of bounds or something bad like that when the sort function was giving wrong results
< 1729101611 198106 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also in the rust standard library, the sorted search trees like BTreeMap have somewhat fewer guarantees, in particular those are allowed to go to an infinite loop from an incorrect Ord according to the documentation
> 1729101619 117461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Torth14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143618 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+7367) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Torth |paradigms=Concatenative |author=[[User:DolphyWind]] |year=[[:Category:2024|2024]] |memsys=[[:Category:Stack-based|Stack-based]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/DolphyWind/esoteric/tree/
> 1729101734 417249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143619&oldid=143617 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+290) 10/* How to get Snakel */
< 1729101774 853472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd prefer somewhat stronger guarantees, as in I'd like a sort function that guarantees that it always returns a permutation of the input (doesn't go to an infinite loop or panic unless the comparison function that it calls does), and further, if you can partition the inputs such that any item in an earlier partition always compares less than any item in a later partition (but within a partition the 
< 1729101780 890046 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :comparison can return anything) then the items in earlier partitions always occurr earlier in the output slice
< 1729101843 815434 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'd like similar guarantees to the trees, only in that case I'm not sure I know what exact guarantees I'd want
< 1729101949 983465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder if those guarantees can be upheld in O(n log n) time
< 1729102002 903108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think mergesort does it? each of the lists being merged will always be sorted by partition, and the merge will merge in partition order
< 1729102133 549079 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they can be upheld in O(n log n) time, but I don't know if they can be upheld without too much slowdown in practical cases
< 1729102193 146703 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe you need different implementations for this and a sort with more relaxed guarantees
< 1729102234 863670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some point, designing a sort algorithm is like designing a compression algorithm – anything you do to increase performance in some cases will reduce it in others, so the aim is to find optimisations that help in common cases, and either hurt only cases that are unlikely to happen, or hurt all the not-very-common cases by an equal insignificant amount
< 1729102255 713468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, that's surprisingly similar to BF Joust
< 1729102579 535344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :any parsimonious sorting algorithm will do the trick, because it necessarily establishes x_1 <= x_2 <= ... <= x_n for its output, and that forces partitions to be separated with the smaller partition coming first (no larger element can immediately precede a smaller one)
< 1729102582 48024 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure. and for sort (or the search trees like in the sqlite3 index), compression, or floating point scanning or printing in decimal, you need worst case guarantees because you will often run them on adversarial input. 
< 1729102677 844890 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not sure what the tree constraint was supposed to be
< 1729102726 845036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't think so. that would be true for a sorting network, but a sorting algorithm can do conditionals (or even array indexing) interactively that depends on previous results from the comparison function, and when you prove that it establishes those inequalities you might use the condition that the comparison function returns consistent results and is transitive 
< 1729102739 899277 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, that should allow merge sort, some implementations of heap sort, and quite a few quadratic time algorithms
< 1729102785 319619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if you haven't compared two elements that are adjacent in the result then they could be swapped
< 1729102801 612906 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :quadratic time is somewhat easier because it can try every comparison at least once
< 1729102834 338265 :CanisCorvus!~CanisCorv@shef-17-b2-v4wan-169232-cust98.vm3.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] CanisCorvus
> 1729102847 578779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143620&oldid=143619 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+462) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1729102850 23834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the point of involving parsimony is that it means that the comparisons you've seen are actually consistent with a partial order.
< 1729102879 215799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, but I don't think that refutes what I'm saying. I'll have to think more about this though, maybe there aren't bad sorting algorithms of the kind I'm imagining
< 1729102890 453003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ooh, I think the correct requirement is that we want the output to be a valid tsort of the input, where x is considered greater than y in the tsort if the comparison algorithm can report that x is greater than y, and vice versa
< 1729102898 592957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, with less rather than greater
< 1729102905 695989 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this might be equivalent to your partition condition
< 1729102913 145967 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(here, a cycle in the tsort can appear in arbitrary order)
< 1729102926 758360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if you haven't compared x_1 and x_2 then you can't tell which order they should be in in the result
< 1729102935 858600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same for x_2 and x_3 and so on.
< 1729102985 658663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is thinking of this as learning a total order by doing comparisons, starting with the discrete partial order on the inputs

< 1729103013 506100 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: in particular, suppose I want to sort just three values, and for this I use an algorithm that does all three comparisons and then looks up the three results in a pre-filled 27 element lookup table, where each element tells me the permutation that I should apply. if I assumed that the comparison function is proper then I might have put garbage in the elements of the lookup table for a cyclic 
< 1729103019 485140 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ordering a I think mergesort does it?
< 1729103194 252710 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not all versions of quicksort do, but sure
< 1729103229 162963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm thinking of a traditional recursive in-plce quicksort
< 1729103243 534140 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1729103252 342676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, any pivot selection will kill it of course
< 1729103256 551921 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for this purpose
< 1729103257 853266 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where you pick a pivot, swap everything lower to the left and everything higher to the right (with the pivot ending up in between), then recursively sort the lists below and above the pivot
< 1729103283 102272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*any* - like picking the median of start, end, and central elements
< 1729103283 353611 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think I've seen a version of quicksort that, for large enough arrays, takes three elements, finds their median, and then partitions the large array to two around that median. I think that one isn't parsimon... what's that word? 
< 1729103289 781597 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parsleyed?
< 1729103365 496171 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if a sorting algorithm had parsley in it that'd me suspicous of that algorithm a bit
< 1729103384 573415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think there's an O(n log n) quicksort based on median-of-medians to guaranteed pick a pivot that isn't too low or too high, although it's exceptionally complicated and almost certainly worse than the alternatives
< 1729103433 538186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh yeah, but that's not what I was thinking of, this one is simpler. I don't remember if it picks the three candidates randomized or not.
< 1729103435 261480 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, actually... if you do the median selection parsimoniously and seed the partitions based off that (so never comparing those 3 elements again) it should still be parsimonious.
< 1729103479 312307 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it really depends on how exactly you implement your quicksort, including potential clever tricks for terminating the partitioning loop
< 1729103480 666090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a feeling that it might sort-of degenerate to mergesort if you do enough median comparisons to make it O(n log n)
< 1729103483 824418 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course any non-randomized quicksort would be right out for something like rust's sort functions, because the can take quadratic time on adversarial input that's not even hard to find
< 1729103533 693479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember seeing a "maximally perverse comparison function" which would compare things transitively, but only decided on their relative ordering when it was actually called, and chose it (based on the elements it was given) to try to force sorting algorithms into worst cases
< 1729103552 151286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: heh that reminds me of the observation that a top-down merge sort, implemented with lists and evaluated lazily, becomes a whacky heap sort dynamically
< 1729103554 593056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think, but am not sure, that there was a claim that it could make any sorting algorithm hit its worst case, possibly under certain assumptions
< 1729103605 913491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, but you don't even need that, if you have the source code of the quicksort function then you can probably feed it an array of small integers on which it performs badly and it's not too expensive to find such an array
< 1729103630 833400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes but it's much more interesting if you don't have the source code
< 1729103646 846160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and can do it anyway
< 1729103675 808209 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe in theory, but relying on an adversary not knowing the source code is usually a bad idea 
< 1729103754 753177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the attack is more interesting – the defence may not be
> 1729103804 610760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Pin 5*  10New user account
< 1729103899 840030 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there is kind of a difference in defense, because with a well-behaved comparison function but adversarial elements in the slice, you can in theory defend with a randomized quicksort, but I don't think randomized quicksort is actually worth as a defense from adversarial attacks, some other sorting algorithm is usually better as defense
< 1729103927 628636 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with an adversarial sort function, randomized quicksort isn't enough
< 1729103944 333444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, randomising doesn't help against the adversarial comparison function
< 1729104166 463604 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDsqJTD5LL0 => GeoGuessr with two people betting the stake that the loser has to travel to the location for which they gave the most wrong (most distant) answer. am I the only one thinking that's a really stupid bet, because it creates the perverse incentive to throw by deliberately guessing very far from a location that is easy to travel to? 
< 1729104233 483146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that there are probably hidden rules involved that are not stated (in the video, and possibly not even between the participants)
< 1729104250 936127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless it's Agorans playing it, in which case it would be expected behaviour
< 1729104362 982230 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1729104457 953689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even with the perverse incentive, the game still works, because you are aiming not to throw by as much as possible, but simply throw by more than the maximum distance you'll get it wrong on your other answers, so that you can avoid travelling at all if you are better at GeoGuessr than your opponent and they use the same strategy
< 1729104678 133140 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: maybe. it depends on how much you'd like to travel. in my case I wouldn't like to travel outside of Europe, and here the first location was clearly European France, which I'm fine with traveling to, so I'd probably throw to the antipode in that round
< 1729104760 353003 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also they're both beginners in GeoGuessr (which makes the bet strange in first place) so I'm not sure if either of them can confidently know that they're better than the other in GeoGuessr
< 1729104796 375916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what other Frances there are
< 1729104810 758990 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and to be clear, they did recognize France (they live in the UK so it's not too surprising)
< 1729104862 251209 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there are a few bits in Africa, especially Madagacar and Réunion, a bit or two in Central-America or South-America, and ... maybe there's something in Asia too? I can't remember
< 1729104877 874521 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not Madagascar, sorry, what's the other one in Africa?
< 1729104953 413363 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember the specifics, I just remember there are bits of France very spread out around the world with various statuses spread out well in the range of part of france to independent ex-colony of france
< 1729104978 864058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've watched expert Geoguessr players play, they can figure out what sort of equipment has been used to take the pictures by looking at its shadow, and that immediately narrows down the range of different countries because they had different camera equipment available in different countries
< 1729104991 394757 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also that in GeoGuessr the natural geography and especially plants in the non-European parts looks very different from European France, but the man-made stuff, especially bollards and phone numbers, look very much like France
< 1729105003 412937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(obviously the camera doesn't take a picture of itself unless it happens to look in a mirror, which is rare – but it often takes a picture of its own shadow)
< 1729105099 136583 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I have watched a lot of geoguessr plays. whether they qualify as "experts" is a matter of definition, but at least they're good enough that I can learn from them, and a few of them even aim to teach Geoguessr. 
< 1729105265 493518 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(obviously because there's so many bits of France outside Europe, what I said might not apply to all bits of them)
< 1729105515 441239 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, the sixth location in that video is funny, because it starts by looking at a vehicle with “Tromsø taxi" written on it
< 1729105593 964507 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then later a building that says “Tromsø” in big letters on its front
< 1729106290 104153 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1729106428 333113 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wWwwW
< 1729106479 251056 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey korvo on menace i have to questions
< 1729106487 426923 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :first could you make it text based and a program
< 1729106508 612859 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :seocnd of all if you dot have error handeling what would happen if you inputted some random shit?
< 1729106687 625442 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Yes, it can be implemented as a program. The matchboxes and beads are just a very slow abacus-like computer.
< 1729106698 50352 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1729106726 326872 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, interestingly, random inputs still can allow learning the correct behavior at a decent rate. The trick is to enforce the *rules* of tic-tac-toe.
< 1729106749 165177 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wonder
< 1729106759 488286 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now his makes no sense but:
< 1729106765 689002 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you make it print the learning progress
< 1729106774 56290 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is how the "Alpha" series from DeepMind works when playing Go or Chess; it plays random legal moves and slowly learns what moves are good from what rules are allowed.
< 1729106775 35289 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then feed it back into menace for it to learn
< 1729106788 390955 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how to play its learning process
> 1729106790 465348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143621&oldid=143558 5* 03She.the.people 5* (-258) 10
< 1729106820 914061 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is tht possible
< 1729106827 30416 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. This was the "Zero" series from DeepMind; they learned by playing against themselves. Really, this was *two* learning processes at the same time.
< 1729106858 925094 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no not that way
< 1729106879 170581 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the actual input of this text based menace is just copy pasted from an uotput describing the larning process
< 1729106982 197145 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Ah, no. "describing" means that you're thinking of a document for humans. But MENACE is only a pile of matchboxes.
< 1729107015 659564 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea but if you format it
< 1729107023 126943 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like what would happen?
< 1729107032 414954 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a format that works ofc
< 1729107051 274974 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The question makes no sense, sorry.
< 1729107061 148347 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aww:(
< 1729107071 692513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's like asking what happens if I play Mozart for a plant.
< 1729107098 922134 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course the Mozart, being audio waves, will vibrate the plant. But it won't be meaningful to the plant; it won't be water, nitrates, etc.
< 1729107136 678444 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, of course you can take a human-readable document and encode it as a series of tic-tac-toe moves. But MENACE only cares about one meaning of tic-tac-toe: what move is least likely to lose.
< 1729107136 725539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently some plants are able to communicate, but they typically do it by releasing chemicals into the soil that other plants are able to detect
< 1729107158 735380 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1729107164 154739 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :trees do that normally
< 1729107166 772435 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cross species
< 1729107204 708038 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which humans cant do lol
> 1729107382 414078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ekativ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143622&oldid=143621 5* 03She.the.people 5* (+58) 10
< 1729107509 751571 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Maybe it's worth pointing out that a learning machine doesn't understand what it learns. Its outputs improve over time (perhaps assuming that the inputs are diverse or easy in some way) but it doesn't do that by building some sort of model of its context or problem.
< 1729107536 640096 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MENACE doesn't have any model of tic-tac-toe. It has an annotated graph of the possible moves of tic-tac-toe.
< 1729107573 815886 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1729107646 670842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, ChatGPT doesn't have any model of human knowledge. It has a pile of weights which indicate how letters and words are related to each other in a typical piece of human writing.
< 1729107655 375952 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1729107657 163071 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik
< 1729107660 771076 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ai is weird
< 1729107679 552935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not weird at all.
< 1729107710 430013 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no what i mean is
< 1729107717 57644 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that like
< 1729107718 447559 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1729107724 177454 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mathemtically it maikes sense
< 1729107754 228492 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it seems counterintuitive that doing matrix shit on a bunch of word numbers makes chatbot
< 1729107776 578818 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why? What's the non-weird way to have a chatbot?
< 1729107795 913409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is ELIZA weird?
< 1729107814 441153 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you dig into this, you'll find that *every* chatbot is built upon some model of linguistics. Somebody decades ago said that language works a certain way, they wrote a program which simulates their model, and then they put a chat interface on top.
< 1729107837 703225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually the weird thing about ELIZA is that even though it rapidly becomes clear that it's basically only just rephrasing what you just told it, forever, quite a few people seemed able to have long conversations with it and thought it was helpful/friendly
< 1729108206 969561 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no like for normal people who dont program
< 1729108374 570889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wWwwW: Sorry, I don't know how to take that point seriously. Yes, people who don't know about computers are going to think that computers are weird and magical.
< 1729108389 11277 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forget it
< 1729108396 186693 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1729108438 37897 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Clearly I should have just repeated my insistence that they learn how to read and write code~
< 1729108527 276191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like it's hard to create a good esolang without understanding what programming is and isn't capable of
< 1729108580 476387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolanging is a wide hobby, there's a big spectrum all the way from pure science to pure art, and everywhere in between
< 1729108590 491129 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, "what programming is and isn't capable of" is a rather big topic
< 1729108612 918575 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but sure, you want to know at least the basics of it 
< 1729108618 953060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the science can be part of the art, whereas someone who doesn't understand programming won't be able to add that aspect into their artistic works
< 1729108669 990726 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I'm watching a teenager's brain get sucked out one paragraph at a time by OpenAI products and I'm not sure how to show them that those products are merely the latest iteration of a decades-old tradition.
< 1729108726 905752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like this is affecting more than just teenagers, it may be even worse with adults
< 1729108749 833771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just because it keeps happening over and over again doesn't mean that people actually learn
< 1729108798 747872 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still trying to parse if korvo means "teenager's" or "teenagers'"
< 1729108825 43977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was an "a"
< 1729108868 48686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume korvo means wWwwW
< 1729108904 335342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.05229 -- nice to see some research into the obvious
< 1729108932 825987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :occasionally the obvious turns out to be incorrect; and often it turns out to be correct but people don't believe it
< 1729108940 426158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having research is useful in either case
< 1729109033 465935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: there's an interesting markup mishap in that abstract
< 1729109061 49051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tl;dr: modifying the data of highschool text problems makes LLMs worse, and adding irrelevant information to the text problems makes LLMs perform worse. This is with the "chain of thought" mechanic where the network redigests its own output to refine it and mimic a reasoning process
< 1729109113 753326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the latter part of that tl;dr would not be surprising even if they were capable of doing complex reasoning; the surprising part is that it makes them perform much worse
< 1729109132 433201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe not that surprising, as it will mostly have been trained on questions where all the givens were relevant
< 1729109142 140568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah it's a missing space in the PDF, "models.Our" instead of "models. Our"
< 1729109155 720668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, weird :)
< 1729109164 784192 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes – I figured that out, but the consequences it had are slightly more interesting than usual
< 1729109170 113252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is ".our" even a TLD?
< 1729109192 421006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks unassigned, but it could be?
< 1729109202 60098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it doesn't sound very marketable)
< 1729109204 169938 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no or not yet
< 1729109228 103928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.us is very marketable
< 1729109242 607977 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :.you is a TLD, though .your isn't, not sure if that says anything about .our.
< 1729109243 695750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the issue is that "our" wants to go at the start of the URL rather than the end
< 1729109246 470033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's not a gTLD
< 1729109252 110291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(.us that is)
< 1729109281 890217 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe you could call it an accidental gTLD
< 1729109295 232798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems pretty usable for URL hacks, but mostly only in English, and many of the websites doing that will happen to be in the US anyway
< 1729109304 950439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :together with .tv .io and probably more I can't think of right now
< 1729109312 629251 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :.my too.
< 1729109316 582941 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.tk although that takes a different approach
< 1729109344 12613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm .pl for perl programmers?
< 1729109368 673148 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.ly is commonly used for url hacks, oddly often with words that don't naturally end in "ly" even though it's a common ending
< 1729109386 937827 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, .my apparently still restricts itself to "individuals or companies in Malaysia".
< 1729109390 746263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this has lead to some issues because the Lybian authorities aren't necessarily happy with all the content people might want to put there
< 1729109403 713677 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(.fi used to, but they went all capitalist free-market eventually.)
< 1729109418 127992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on a semi-related note, I was really surprised to discover that MySql was named after a person named My, rather than the pronoun
< 1729109454 546221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think .uk is still restricted to the appropriate nationality, or possibly just with huge discounts
< 1729109470 754457 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Little My is a character in the Moomins.
< 1729109630 98258 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Translated to Finnish as "Pikku Myy" since then it gets pronounced right, but it's a little silly because fi:myy is also indicative-mood, present-tense 3rd-person singular inflection of fi:myydä 'to sell'. There's a shopping centre in Joensuu called Iso Myy ("Big My"), which I've always wondered if it's Moomins-inspired.
< 1729109630 478602 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: domain name registration under .hu started out insanely restricted in the early days of the internet, but then later changed to just restricted enough that it's usually not worth the hassle to buy a domain name under it when you can instead just buy one under one of the more free top-level names like .net
< 1729109730 514270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the old rules were that only organizations could buy domain names and only domain names that is close enough to the name of that organization as registered in a few government registries, as in mostly business companies and media organizations like newspapers and TV channels, and even then only if the domain name wasn't a generic common word. 
< 1729109764 646535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :was "generic common word" evaluated in Hungarian or English or both?
< 1729109771 950091 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: probably both
< 1729109810 601114 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I think for .fi also you originally needed a company or a registered organization. Then FICORA (Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority, a department of the Ministry of Transport and Communications) started selling them directly to individuals (but you still needed to be a resident in Finland), and then when they opened them up worldwide they also made it so that you have to buy through a
< 1729109812 776895 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :reseller, not from them directly.
< 1729109833 363546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's interesting to see transport and communications in the same ministry
< 1729109833 385820 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not entirely sure about the new rules, but I think they barely restrict what domain name you can buy, slightly restrict who can buy (this part got easier because of EU), and severely restrict how you can buy (I think there's like two weeks of wait or something, I'm not sure, I stopped trying to find out more because I realized other top-level domains are clearly better)
< 1729109862 523161 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is logic behind it – one transfers people and objects over a distance, the other transfers information
< 1729109884 303179 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"buy through a reseller" makes sense for this kind of thing
< 1729109913 846880 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it was kinda weird to transact business directly with FICORA as an individual.
< 1729109947 436255 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they used the same web thing they use for other kinds of licensing matters, which was kind of geared towards businesses and other such.
< 1729109995 476736 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although I think it was also marginally cheaper than it is now.
< 1729110183 601653 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like they've dropped the length requirement down from 3 to 2 characters, and the obvious .fi domain (hi.fi) has been registered.
< 1729110190 260257 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the rule for no generic words kind of made sense in context, because media organizations were the most interested in having domain names, and they often have generic names, you know, like a lot of newspapers called "Times", and, in Hungary in particular, two different TV channels called "TV2" (though officially not both called that at the same time)
< 1729110212 858842 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: do they allow digits only?
< 1729110224 969069 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um
< 1729110232 945952 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do they allow domain names with digits only?
< 1729110322 673601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: there's also wi-fi for domain hacks of that nature, although it's less clear what you'd put there
< 1729110366 168323 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like wi.fi is registered, but not hosting a website.
< 1729110451 991140 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The permitted characters in fi-domain names are letters from a to z, numbers from 0 to 9, hyphen-minus and the following native language characters: áâäåčđǥǧǩŋõöšŧžƷǯ."
< 1729110468 506737 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't say whether it could be digits-only or not.
< 1729110497 89566 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait… I can't tell what native languages some of those are for
< 1729110506 275376 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"åäö" are in the Finnish alphabet, I think the remainder of those are different Sami languages that have some sort of official recognition.
< 1729110529 609887 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or possibly that should be Sámi.
< 1729110563 276807 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well technically "åäö" is also for swedish language which is relevant enough in finland, but yeah
< 1729110606 903288 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Swedish is also an official language, yes. It's notably missing the Danish/Norwegian æ and ø, though. Probably because they're not.
< 1729110690 853688 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know "õ" is notably used in estonian and portugese and not much else, so that might be why it's there
< 1729110726 387302 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think š and ž or something like that are sometimes used to transcribe loanwords or names in Swedish
< 1729110731 38353 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In the Skolt Sami language, this letter (õ) is the 25th letter of the alphabet, pronounced as [ɘ]."
< 1729110763 39650 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's the "ǥǩŋŧƷǯ" that completely puzzle me, I have no idea what those are for
< 1729110779 340464 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similar story there, I think.
< 1729110833 362243 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolt_S%C3%A1mi#Writing_system mentions at least ǥǩŋʒǯ.
< 1729110848 196305 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "ǧ" I thought is a turkish letter, but that doesn't seem to be why it's in that list because the other common turkish letters Ş and Ç aren't there
< 1729110865 371233 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And ŧ is apparently part of the Northern Sámi alphabet.)
< 1729110870 784733 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1729110897 85086 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Our group at the university did some work with Sámi languages, which are all very underresourced when it comes to speech recognition and/or synthesis.
< 1729110913 599380 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1729110949 678543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also that they are for Sámi languages at least explains why that list confuses me
> 1729113077 650661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143623&oldid=143620 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+675) 10/* Syntax */
> 1729113138 540165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143624&oldid=143623 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+39) 10/* Syntax */
> 1729113164 859581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143625&oldid=143624 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* Syntax */
> 1729113195 33572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel (Ractangle)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143626&oldid=143625 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-91) 10/* Ultium 2.0-Ultium 3.0 Beta */
< 1729113756 388466 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1729114231 201101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143627&oldid=143231 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-219) 10/* Commands */
> 1729114241 548820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143628&oldid=143627 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-25) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1729114375 798305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Empty Program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143629&oldid=141352 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-138) 10
< 1729114994 296676 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1312
< 1729114996 854796 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1729116117 884729 :molson_!~molson@2001-48F8-704A-446-5273-A1C-75DA-B22F-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
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< 1729117337 804800 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I'm making a tetris game, in each of these areas, how much of a virtue or vice is it to invent my own rather than copy an existing good tetris game? decoration graphics outside the game field; gameplay graphics in the game field; scoring; leveling (when does the game speed up); piece sequence random generation; starting position and orientation of the piece; game over rule (when do you count as 
< 1729117343 801128 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :topped out); lock down rule (when you lose control over the piece and get the next piece, eg. can you stall forever); gameplay timing (eg. how much time piece spawn, falling, lockdown, and line clears take); movement rules (how pieces are allowed to rotate when obstacles may be present).
< 1729119531 533440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC the Tetris Company has official rules for some of those things – on the other hand, they also tend to sue people who call their game "Tetris", and may object to being derivative in other ways, so it may make sense to intentionally deviate
< 1729119573 753468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :levelling does seem to be broadly consistent across Tetris and its clones, even though many of those other things aren't
< 1729119614 768945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one innovation that may be worth copying (unless it's patented, which wouldn't surprise me) is called a "sonic drop" – it drops the piece to the lowest position it will fit in with its current orientation, but does not lock it immediately and you can still move and rotate it
< 1729119639 53380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(some of the most difficult Tetris games spawn pieces with a sonic drop, at the highest difficulty levels)
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> 1729120398 94438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tic Tac Toe(Program Form)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143630&oldid=143602 5* 03None1 5* (-136) 10syntaxhighlight is not supported on esolangs wiki
< 1729121778 587517 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is also possible to have some options which can make some of these things similar and different than the other Tetris game, too.
< 1729121781 430251 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah, let's reframe to make something distributable in the USA and EU: if you're making a *falling block game* with a mode where the pieces are *tetrominoes*...
< 1729121838 115100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then the answer is that you get to come up with fun non-infringing names for modes which happen to have the same timing, drop, scoring, leveling, bags, etc. as Tetris. Like, uh, "memories of Russia".
< 1729121884 635104 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, uh, "Japanese jellies" for Puyo, or "dinosaur treats" for Yoshi's Cookie, etc.
< 1729122071 874100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH the right rules for falling block games are the ones that feel good when you're in a flow state. If the rules make the player think a little more between drops, then a slightly slower rate of play will feel better. No substitute for testing.
< 1729122258 592861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pentominoes are a fun thing to base that sort of game around, it still seems to be playable and takes more thought