< 1729382767 905193 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I made a list of game rules in http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Game_rules but does not include all of the games, yet. < 1729383239 966131 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I've been experimenting with an augmentation to FRACTRAN/Bag's rules. < 1729383331 826431 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it seems that BBB(n) winners must be non-terminating, and have no halt state (BBB(4) winner meets this) which effectively _adds_ another useful state to the machine. It's not going to be exactly equivalent to an n+1 machine... it's likely to be better, because a halting n+1 machine has at least one out of (n * symbol) combinations leading to Halt, whereas the BBB(n) can use the full (n * symbol) combinations to do what it needs to, so long as it < 1729383332 286973 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can create an arbitrary 'quasihalt' loop with an (n-1) non-terminating TM, form the quasihalt tape state. < 1729383352 113694 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... so you're replacing a halt state with a n-1 state non-terminating TM which happens to overlap or co-exist with the useful machine you are designing < 1729383377 940821 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1729383396 318636 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: Yeah, that seems to be the intuition that Ligocki is building. I admit that I don't have a good imagination for these. < 1729383451 398434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: eventually the oracle power will kick in and blow BB(n) out of the water < 1729383456 92321 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What augmentation to FRACTRAN/Bag's rules is it? < 1729383501 12373 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :One where instead of decrementing and incrementing by 1, you decrement and increment by the `min` of all of the registers mentioned on the LHS. < 1729383509 457207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like there'll be a /relatively/ small machine that simulates all TMs with 10^100 states in parallel and beeps whenever one of them halts, so BBB() > BB(10^100). < 1729383537 778373 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :And one where the LHS can't feature duplicates. < 1729383608 651107 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :It makes moving data around quite fast. < 1729383635 794663 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: no, you don't make the halting state beep, you make the state that occurs the most frequently before the halt, and since there are very few states and BB is large, that's basically as many beeps as the BB. that proves BBB can't be significantly smaller than BB. < 1729383676 464098 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that BBB is be much larger even for such low number of states isn't obvious to me < 1729383677 883166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it counts steps, not beeps < 1729383708 703689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the definition is carefully crafted to make BB(n) >= BBB(n) trivial. < 1729383731 191247 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl PRIVMSG #esolangs :The caveat being that any catalyst-like rules that reduce the `min` to 1 reduce it to FRACTRAN/Bag semantics. < 1729383737 771959 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: probably doesn't matter much, but sure < 1729383812 263114 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: as int-e said "it counts steps, not beeps", i was thinking it counted beeps first, but BB gets to output 1s on more that one state, BBB only gets 1 beep state, so by that measure BB has to get more 'outputs' in < 1729383827 197413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err that inequality is the wrong way around < 1729383872 236719 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :... then I got confused whether BB is 'producing the most output' / 'writing the most 1s to the tape' / 'running the longest' ... i think all of those end up be equivalent in the various formulation < 1729383881 508138 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s < 1729383902 598660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: all these notions exist but I think people focus on the number of steps until it halts < 1729383935 851328 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I wonder if BBB is much larger than BB, in the sense of whether there's no constant C such that BBB(n)<=BB(C*n) for large enough n. like, is BBB really more powerful, or does it just get some advantage for large n? < 1729383950 189953 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/advantage for large n/advantage for small n/ < 1729383955 795338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: did you see my comment about BB(10^100)? < 1729383962 398409 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1729383996 379336 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1729384009 770323 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that means BBB is much bigger < 1729384011 511711 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good to know < 1729384066 363263 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: number of steps is the easiest to think about. I agree with your statement about the inequality crafted to make the inequality trivial. It does require understanding that it's a single beep marking the step index, not a beep count < 1729384123 852425 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that shouldn't be different for large n though < 1729384196 898850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except of course if you want beep count then the operators will get annoyed by all the beeps and disconnect the alarm < 1729384269 316731 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, if you can still find operators after BBB days in first place < 1729384321 699817 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, it's important to understand how this generalizes, or at least how it's made isomorphism-invariant. The machine only has to go through a "beep state" because we're assuming it's got an underlying FSM. < 1729384370 150731 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we forget that the machine has states, and just think of it in terms of observables, then the connection to halting is clear: we're waiting for the machine to satisfy a particular observational requirement. < 1729384404 822496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That observable might only manifest as a composite of machine actions or machine states. A classic example is old-school tape drives that walked across server rooms when given a sequence of head-moving operations. < 1729384444 567297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it *must* generalize waiting for the machine to halt, because we can presumably observe whether the machine is halted yet. < 1729384478 273923 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is really interesting, but i think it has more to do with halt definitions rather than IO, and something about it feels like state-count accounting tricks on n, like there will be an exact equivalence trade-off, with no rules broken or extra power conferred, but it certainly doesn't seem trivial to unpack. < 1729384548 999494 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it feels weird that something could still be hard even with an oracle for Halting, right? I struggled with this too. < 1729384577 247072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe. for a turing machine you can observe haltin easily, but I think ais523 managed to define machines with much harder to observe halting conditions < 1729384723 101215 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :DNA computers are a fun example. AIUI we have autocatalytic DNA fragments, so we should be able to do universal computation somehow, but DNA computers don't ever halt, they just (possibly) reach equilibrium. < 1729384741 318430 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know there have been esolang discussions where a tight loop was an uncontroversial alternative to a halt. This seems to be suggesting that unprovably non-halting loops can be used as halt too... which seems like a thing you can say, but, yeah, harder to work with in practice < 1729384771 227260 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course you have to remember the context that BB(1000) is already larger than I can imagine < 1729384785 11322 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Waterfall computers are another fun example. Technically, if you label every atom of water going over Niagara Falls in one second, you can compute by using the permutation of atoms as a reversible computer; but good luck actually tagging quadrillions of molecules. < 1729384860 929607 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: Note that, for TMs, halting is definitely an observable, and that's what matters for TCness as it's originally defined. If you can emulate a TM in a system, and whether the emulator has halted is observable, then it doesn't matter if we can't measure the whole system at once. < 1729384874 209904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That might be super-obvious to you, sorry. < 1729384906 92245 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh, just had a though abotu machines that maximise the time for their first beep.. and then again for their second beep... isn't that just two BB's back to back, maybe sharing some states? < 1729384926 487434 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: by quadrillion you mean just 10**15 right? because 10**24 might be more than how many molecules in Niagara Falls < 1729384926 723950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh also instead of beeping whenever a TM halts, we can instead take the number of steps N so far, and enumerate N-state TMs to simulate (so now there's two separate batches of simulations, and the second one is reset whenever we find a larger N). So we can get BB(BB(10^100)) still with "relatively few" states. (I imagine tens of thousands if we do it with human-understandable means) < 1729384960 528577 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, you're on the same track as Aaronson and Ligocki (separately), who build nests of equations relating the two different degrees of computation. This sort of thing also shows up in algorithmic information theory. < 1729384960 829095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so as usual these constructions start stacking like crazy < 1729384986 129790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah I didn't think this would be a novel idea :) < 1729384990 531974 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah, the smaller amount. < 1729385084 951431 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Hah, yeah. I've read the article by...you? Tromp? doing this with BLC. Same idea: the monoid of composition has recursive constraints on its presentation and we can use those to compute the cardinality of (slices of) the presentation. < 1729385154 659671 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the term "oracle power" is even in the blog post... I'm just making this a bit more concrete for myself. < 1729385174 202072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok never mind, there is 10**24 molecules too, I just can't count < 1729385195 674129 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1729385234 557297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I keep thinking of the Erdös Book, or 0♯, or other indices of proofs. Stuff at the level of Halting is questions about maths. Stuff at the level of Beeping is questions about The Book. < 1729385260 183143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: probably Tromp < 1729385349 132107 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix-or-treat < 1729385377 184596 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm laughing just at the idea of not being able to count to 10**24 being a problem, that just struck me as very funny < 1729385428 130055 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION just programs in BLC on occasion. Well, there is https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Goodstein_Lambda.html which qualifies as academic and was motivated by BLC. < 1729385495 64260 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement < 1729385653 750451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : hehe. for a turing machine you can observe haltin easily, but I think ais523 managed to define machines with much harder to observe halting conditions ← for the 2-state 3-symbol turing machine it's actually mostly the initial condition that's the problem, I think it's possible to design an initial condition so that the halt state becomes "goes to the left of the starting location" (although the halt state in my proof was more complicated) < 1729385753 855801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the attempt to calculate BB(3,3) has now encountered a machine that people are pretty sure halt, but are not yet sure how to simulate it all the way to its halt state > 1729385804 835197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated !14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143891&oldid=143286 5* 03None1 5* (+1682) 10 > 1729385940 500365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated !/None114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143892 5* 03None1 5* (+4208) 10Created page with "1. Take that sh*t

     C . ,     . 12299        ?       .   . ,  10    . 2.    .   . ..."
> 1729385963 744144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated !/None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143893&oldid=143892 5* 03None1 5* (+39) 10
< 1729386998 83032 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking in terms of emulators is interesing. It seems trivial to say any halting TM can be emulated by infinitely many non-halting TMs that do something else after the emulation has completed. What does that mean though? I don't think you can make claims about state counts, because it's also trivial to create examples where computations can be performed by fewer states (if you start with an inefficient state machine to begin with).
< 1729387047 63308 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for BBB, why can't there be more future beeps, if you can define an observable halting condition like: consider the emulation halted if there are no beeps for m steps, or when there are two consecutive beeps, or some other fixed or relative period of silence from some pre-beeped point
< 1729387395 240719 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I joined earlier to say was about bfjoust, but got swiped by bf, IO, and BBB
< 1729387406 641037 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have another optimised bfjoust warrior, descended from the same parent as Lymia.nyuroki2 (#2 on the hill). At 2k, it's 1/4 the size of Lymia.nyuroki2, and 1/3 the size of their common ancestor, nyuroki-esoteric. It gets 1st place with 22.21 points, and a Markov score of 59.82.
< 1729387442 202047 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's ridiculously manually optimised (maybe fragile?), but the basic algorithm is that of nyuroki-esoteric. nyuroki2 has a slightly more complex version, but it's the same idea as Lymia's original of 8x rushes, and some fiddly magic numbers here and there.
< 1729387471 471397 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not submitting it to the hill because I need to figure out how to apply the MIT license of the original written in a custom JoustExt script / scala / bfjoust, and mine which is bash scripted bfjoust. I'm treating warriors more like discovering integers or algorithms with interesting properties. Maybe I'm missing something about the required creativity for algorithms made from 8 symbols, or etiquette of re-using code? I do want to attribute prior 
< 1729387471 811530 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :work correctly tho
< 1729387594 526363 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm using the same basic algorithm of nyuroki, and tweaked some of the parameters (setup minimal defense, then 8 potential rushes, one with params for short tapes), but have significantly increased the Kolmogorov complexity of the rush. Common ancestor nyuroki has only 1 rush type, current hill nyuroki2 has 3 kinds, my versions uses 2 distinct rushes.
< 1729388045 329212 :salpynx!~salpynx@161.29.22.222 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1729389934 96403 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1729401988 176013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1729403780 35088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (nonalphabetic and A-L)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143894&oldid=143849 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+728) 10
< 1729406580 737037 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Woah.
< 1729406583 954396 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's still life in BFJoust.
< 1729407451 502890 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729408411 302162 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(will aim this at salpynx later, but dropping this here before I forget)
< 1729408551 973224 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :So... nyuroki2 was kinda always a somewhat poorly tuned version of an at-the-time-new (?) strategy group that plays unfair in a lot of small ways. Break the rule of 9 severely, intentionally use decoy setup clashes, straight-up skip a flag without confirming for sure it's not the flag, etc.
< 1729408896 567522 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its last closest relative (strategy-wise) was margins3, which tries to win very short tapes and tie longer ones. Nyuroki overall tries to take a more extreme version of this strategy, winning very short and long tapes. Against older bots coded before it, it usually ends up outright losing (generally) tapes from about 11-14 and winning everything else, leading to a ridiculously winning overall score against the entire hill.
< 1729408995 844814 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's still got the best W/L record overall (score ladder), and... its dominance there actually kinda distorts the markov ladder. Since, defeating Nyuroki at the cost of several of the weaker bots that Nyuroki still wins you the ladder overall.
< 1729409191 512364 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Feel free to post variants of it, just... I think it'd end up amounting to hill tuning against to beat the new bots. It'll probably take a few bots in the general strategy group tuned differently for the ladder to "stabilize" again and so that new bots need to beat the whole general strategy "solidly" instead of just taking advantage of flaws/bugs in Nyuroki to get high on the ladder. I'd encourge new similar bots, but also encourge them to be 
< 1729409191 562299 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :completely new code based on the same principles.
< 1729409555 443763 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729409845 86126 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1729410202 188472 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1729411980 2129 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729412427 759173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143895&oldid=143880 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+22) 10/* Syntax */
< 1729412559 851047 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: you may want to copy some of that to https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_champions#2017
> 1729412901 135672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143896&oldid=143895 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+154) 10/* MarkupL syntax */
> 1729412974 65467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143897&oldid=143896 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+20) 10/* Hello, world */
< 1729413109 33861 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's fair. :o
> 1729413110 595467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143898&oldid=143897 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+30) 10/* Hello, world */
< 1729413124 368683 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hell0
< 1729413142 519793 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kinda hard to describe succinctly because it does a lot of small things rather than any one big thing.
> 1729413147 324988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143899&oldid=143898 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, world */
< 1729413165 194911 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1729413236 860951 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it needs to be more succint than what you said above. I think the information on how it affected the ladder can fit there.
< 1729413274 351709 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION nods.
< 1729413275 598504 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fair enough.
< 1729413293 554930 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had an esolang idea
< 1729413297 776298 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :base don ladders
< 1729413301 196343 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i want feedback
< 1729413316 40137 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe ask ais523, since I'm not really a bfjoust player
< 1729413362 577387 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the idea was
< 1729413364 327548 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you had
< 1729413370 669772 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs := which is a daller step
< 1729413373 373115 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I can update the champion thing.
< 1729413374 485898 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a pointer
< 1729413388 602131 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it climbs up the nearest ladder(right prorioty)
< 1729413388 681888 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :... if it's alive, may actually implement my latest idea for an evolver.
< 1729413390 732518 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then
< 1729413392 636923 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it
< 1729413395 136534 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :And hope it works this time.
< 1729413405 945612 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if its at bottom of ladder goes
< 1729413410 525542 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :up and other way around
< 1729413418 568125 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if its somewhere in the middle in between
< 1729413419 734776 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then it
< 1729413445 361480 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :goes oppistive of the last ladder direction
< 1729413447 848392 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very simple
< 1729413498 416140 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :should i make it
< 1729413560 415784 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: fizzie revived zemhill, so it should be alive
< 1729413567 153182 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh!
< 1729413569 743546 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's nice. :o
< 1729413621 725771 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot call ztest bad (>)*9((+.)*180>(+)*100(+.+..)*30>)*20
< 1729413624 535477 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: {"result":"ok","message":"web.b_jonas-bad: points -28.95, score 4.74, rank 47/47\n"}
< 1729413755 301164 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a few people were submitting programs too
< 1729413961 562370 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh gosh
< 1729413962 498375 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :New bot?
< 1729414021 915268 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2. 
< 1729414022 226326 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Stored has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2. 
< 1729414026 243014 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :er no
< 1729414050 144618 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot search has been there
< 1729414050 682304 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NULL> has a lot of the same features, but pork has been around for, what, 20 years?] [<*:##NULL> has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/6vzai7 ]
< 1729414057 706434 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot search has been there for a year or two
< 1729414058 50777 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3 is a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2. ] [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NU... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/pclksz ]
< 1729414075 775590 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat, how do I make it tell what the copula in that is
< 1729414088 510635 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot fact has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
< 1729414088 837967 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a very old bot that I contributed into and is a complete rewrite of buubot2. 
< 1729414094 518004 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot forget has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
< 1729414094 758640 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Forgot has been here for a year or two, and it's actually rather old outside this channel, it's a new instance of some parts of buubot3, where buubot3
< 1729414109 62672 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot search has been there for a year or two
< 1729414109 411266 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: [<*:##NULL> macro true facts is `eval use Acme::ConspiracyTheory::Random -all; bad_punctuation theory!] [<*:##NULL> itself is nominally opensource, but it's got a history that would make any lawyers upset if you tried to get a proper license for it (3 main authors, me buu and a user by the name of b_jonas).  buu disappeared for a while but is now b... [Output truncated. http://perl.bot/p/3vcap4 ]
< 1729414124 90515 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that other one looks accidental too
< 1729414128 514279 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot fact itself
< 1729414128 745262 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: nominally opensource, but it's got a history that would make any lawyers upset if you tried to get a proper license for it (3 main authors, me buu and a user by the name of b_jonas).  buu disappeared for a while but is now back, b_jonas has been gone for years and none of us have ever decided to give it a proper license.  the rest is all stuff i've spun off that's got proper
< 1729414160 369235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot forget itself
< 1729414160 636836 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Forgot itself
< 1729414274 82957 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: anyway, perlbot can send HTTP GET queries, though it has some annoying limitation in how it uses that, it always tries to parse the reply as html or xml, only gives you the parse tree rather than the original source, and sometimes the parsing fails outright, so you can't just download arbitrary content that's not encapsulated in html or xml, though plain text files will often work because they'll 
< 1729414280 473118 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parse as html\
< 1729414307 296498 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, is the bot not alive?
< 1729414310 8350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: and also zemhill happens to accept bfjoust submissions of in a GET query, which is a bug, but I decided I'd use it
< 1729414310 89425 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just the website?
< 1729414335 727291 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest (>)*9([(+.)*150]>)
< 1729414335 827713 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "!ztest progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
< 1729414338 870357 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the bot is alive too
< 1729414345 438941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think using perlbot is funnier
< 1729414352 941827 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest bad (>)*9([(+.)*150]>)
< 1729414353 180571 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas.bad: points -32.86, score 3.02, rank 47/47
< 1729414422 826478 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole infrastructure, zemhill's hill and website and bot, are rather old and fizzie basically made it mostly work using duct tape
< 1729414435 575970 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(of course perlbot is also very old)
< 1729414535 575920 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION nods.
< 1729414598 982030 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though on the plus side, zemhill was originally written in ruby 1.9, while jevalbot was originally written in ruby 1.8, so zemhill needed fewer layers of duct tape
> 1729415196 83815 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143900&oldid=143899 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* MarkupL add-ons */
< 1729415417 102211 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My last attempt at an evolver was... in retrospect, overcomplicated.)
< 1729415449 823624 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :question:
< 1729415468 14818 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would waterfall be TC if you could just reset the value
< 1729415476 245079 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(An approach came to mind for a BF Joust evolver that follows through how I tend to make bots in practice. Have a concept of "behaviors" which are nested "monotonically".)
< 1729415492 190147 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not sure what the proper term is, but. An ordered list of "behaviors" which can jump to other behaviors that follow them.)
< 1729415503 630510 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(So complicated strategies can evolve that still reuses code for different "sections".)
< 1729415508 907253 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Might still run into fitness landscape issues, but.)
< 1729415512 914913 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Worth a shot.)
< 1729415534 722584 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Basic instructions for constructs like an offset clear or clears in general should help.)
> 1729416001 331276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143901&oldid=143900 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+608) 10/* Examples */
> 1729416101 170174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143902&oldid=143901 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* MarkupL add-ons */
< 1729416803 669455 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729417522 640325 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1729417541 676808 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1729417848 248248 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729417991 988203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143903&oldid=143902 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+376) 10/* Cat program */
< 1729420021 322156 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
> 1729420061 873164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143904&oldid=143903 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* Cat program */
< 1729420117 31695 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust another_rush_program ++>>>(+)*5<(-)*5<(+)*33(>)*4(>[([+[+[--[-[-[(-[{(+)*23(+[{(+)*95(+.)*23(>(+)*117(+.)*23)*-1}])%22}])%20]]]]]]>)*25]++>-)*15
< 1729420117 479694 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.another_rush_program: points 0.98, score 21.57, rank 20/47
> 1729420246 435649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143905&oldid=143904 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+22) 10/* Cat program */
> 1729421359 699004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143906&oldid=143905 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+464) 10/* MarkupL syntax */
> 1729421369 603120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143907&oldid=143906 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* MarkupL syntax */
> 1729421641 490086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143908&oldid=143907 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+66) 10/* MarkupL syntax */
> 1729421780 275746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143909&oldid=143908 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+32) 10/* Cat program */
> 1729421815 858991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143910&oldid=143909 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10/* Cat program */
< 1729422540 323877 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729422931 951680 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust worst_program (><)*-1
< 1729422932 276233 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia.worst_program: points -33.05, score 3.06, rank 47/47
< 1729422937 273949 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, it works!
< 1729422941 120501 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well...
> 1729423154 518027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Comment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143911&oldid=143557 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+17) 10/* 4ME */
< 1729423590 79947 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn JOIN #esolangs toonn :Unknown
> 1729423605 321971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143912&oldid=143422 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+119) 10
> 1729423697 901459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ME14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143913&oldid=139947 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-83) 10
< 1729423974 290449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :question. do bfjoust abbreviations let you compactly describe a quasi-infinite string P where P = [QP[RP]] where Q and R are given programs with brackets balanced, and the closing square brackets are never reached?
< 1729424003 105820 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's just P = [QP] then you can write that as ([Q{}])*-1 
< 1729425158 456773 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.123.99 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1729425497 372373 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.123.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1729425826 903457 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait no, that's the wrong question
< 1729425847 360978 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and meaningless)
< 1729425852 987194 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to figure out the real question later
> 1729426448 893960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143914&oldid=143886 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (-54) 10
< 1729426868 374690 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1729427398 635720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143915&oldid=143910 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-21) 10/* MarkupL syntax */
< 1729428095 954224 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729429170 277060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/Alternate Universe Underload14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143916&oldid=143855 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+2283) 10More minimization
< 1729429258 924976 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.77.168 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1729429712 241591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143917&oldid=143914 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (+921) 10
< 1729430111 394680 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729430192 278706 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729430227 540620 :wWwwW!~wWwwW@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729430546 906460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143918&oldid=143917 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (+6) 10
< 1729431825 364497 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729432032 88033 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729432033 350082 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode
> 1729432283 723048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143919&oldid=140439 5* 03Yes 5* (+87) 10
< 1729432680 123183 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a proof available for Brainfuck being Turing Complete?
> 1729432780 651395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143920&oldid=142715 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+311) 10
< 1729433339 42702 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:8d60:d5b0:dacd:a37a:e880 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729433808 301285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143921&oldid=143918 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (-201) 10
< 1729434062 848176 :Everything!~Everythin@46.211.77.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1729434155 885434 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-57-213.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
> 1729434197 32701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143922&oldid=143921 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (+12) 10
> 1729434513 327778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BubbleLang/Error14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143923&oldid=139584 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+339) 10
< 1729434669 445378 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729434755 510605 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1729436256 265335 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1729436521 486876 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1729436522 883330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143924&oldid=143859 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+42) 10
> 1729436800 815359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143925 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+210) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}If you make an error in the code (for example putting an undefined variable into the code) in a Snakel interpreter. Then the terminal will emit an error and will explain and show where you made a mistake"
> 1729436820 248434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143926&oldid=143925 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10
> 1729436848 698651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SKR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143927 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+7075) 10+[[SKR]]
> 1729436886 518438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143928&oldid=143848 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+10) 10+[[SKR]]
> 1729436898 396208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143929&oldid=141802 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+10) 10+[[SKR]]
> 1729436963 288096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SKR14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143930&oldid=143927 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+2) 10
< 1729439997 363694 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-57-213.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1729440682 867801 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1729442047 417112 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1729444010 284711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143931&oldid=143926 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+14) 10
> 1729445745 4856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hostile snakes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143932 5* 03Yayimhere 5* (+801) 10Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''hostile snakes''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. hostile snakes is a 2d self modifying esolang with ladders. dont worry about the name, its just an overcomplicated pun == how it works == the pointer starts at lower right corner, an
> 1729446137 463416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143933&oldid=143931 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+17) 10Back
> 1729446209 99498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hostile snakes14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143934&oldid=143932 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+81) 10Categories
< 1729446306 492696 :fowl!~fowl@user/fowl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1729446613 47182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143935&oldid=143933 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+25) 10/* TypeError */
> 1729446659 870744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Compatibility methods14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143936&oldid=143725 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+17) 10
> 1729446766 338712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143937&oldid=143924 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+33) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1729446941 475634 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1729446941 504339 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Client Quit
< 1729447317 994830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: https://paste.debian.net/1332858/
< 1729447449 428321 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo JOIN #esolangs craigo :realname
< 1729448182 964876 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Wow, fast. I'll reproduce in a bit.
> 1729448257 54549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143938&oldid=143935 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+198) 10/* Using a wrong type */
> 1729448286 335756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143939&oldid=143938 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+53) 10
> 1729448340 823263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143940&oldid=143939 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+41) 10/* Using a wrong type in a variable */
< 1729448439 776107 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.113.156 JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
> 1729448713 46318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143941&oldid=143940 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+256) 10/* Using a wrong type in a variable */
< 1729449204 684336 :craigo!~craigo@user/craigo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1729450588 246692 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729450610 869481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143942&oldid=143922 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (-16) 10
< 1729451117 711461 :mniip!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest22
> 1729451238 242660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ME14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143943&oldid=143913 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+98) 10/* Rewritten 4ME */
< 1729451326 916103 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org JOIN #esolangs * :sam
< 1729451351 125228 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org NICK :Guest1779
> 1729451518 710304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ME14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143944&oldid=143943 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+56) 10/* Commands */
< 1729451550 887900 :Guest1779!~sam@lullcec.org QUIT :Client Quit
> 1729451576 742391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATProtogen/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143945&oldid=143942 5* 03ATProtogen 5* (-93) 10
< 1729451582 924695 :sam__!~sam@lullcec.org JOIN #esolangs * :sam
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< 1729451792 229917 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yep, your example works. Very nice! Do you prefer this pastebin for permanent links, or can I save a copy to the bb-gauge repo?
< 1729451929 393994 :Guest22!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest22
< 1729451951 424660 :mniip!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1729451954 205269 :Guest22!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1729451976 32622 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I prefer the pastebin for the time being
< 1729452068 350104 :Guest22!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest22
< 1729452088 337102 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1729452101 549603 :Guest22!~Guest22@2405:201:d023:3863:7c1c:c4a8:69c9:9813 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1729452157 730783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: I wanted to tell you that nyuroki2 is more impressive than you probably think it is – the way you check for clashing decoy setups is innovative and it's actually a surprisingly hard program to beat with something other than a slightly tweaked copy of itself
< 1729452185 572333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the slightly broken antishudder has been causing me huge problems, it is harder to exploit than either a fully working antishudder or an absent one
< 1729452194 782967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm going to have to remember how to XML-RPC in order to get a raw copy of the paste, aren't I... How would I do that from Nix? This is suddenly an engineering problem.
< 1729452518 56710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hmm there's no visible link for that but https://paste.debian.net/plain/1332858/ works
< 1729452541 189102 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: TIL! I had no idea.
< 1729452555 467481 :sam__!~sam@37.247.55.216 JOIN #esolangs * :sam
< 1729452570 167649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, actually there *is* a link at the very bottom
< 1729452578 651328 :sam__!~sam@37.247.55.216 NICK :Guest4255
< 1729452612 847831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, no, that's just for the creator of the paste.
< 1729452705 173261 :Guest4255!~sam@37.247.55.216 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1729452891 139094 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Well, I'm happy to record this as an "Interp(BCL)" weighing in at 2087 characters for now. I'll push that in a bit.
< 1729452969 327737 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@89.214.113.156 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1729453031 487366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: It's a bit less if you drop the first loop (which serves as a comment). But also, the restriction to terms is noteworthy.
< 1729453101 572589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(full BCL does the same thing as BLC where a self-delimited program is parsed and the rest of the input bits are passed to the program as an argument)
< 1729453129 281747 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I am wondering how BCL compares to Iota/Jot
< 1729453148 13049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are conceptually very similar, just different primitives
< 1729453164 33724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and directly compiling in either direction would bloat the size of the program…
< 1729453171 625604 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, I should double-check that my optimizer is removing the first loop. I'm canonicalizing all of the BF programs so that we're on a level playing ground; the gauge would not be very useful if it were calibrated by the length of English comments rather than code.
< 1729453276 766891 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is "BCL" a typo for BLC?
< 1729453289 366644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no
< 1729453294 746332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1729453302 720198 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :BCL is the spiritual precursor of BLC
< 1729453303 226363 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean BCL as in an encoding for S-K
< 1729453306 62732 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1729453309 213137 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1729453325 718564 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should just call that one BBS (binary bird sociology)
< 1729453738 157010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the fact that there are no links at the bottom is weird. compare  https://paste.debian.net/1332870
< 1729453759 626502 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ugh, confirmed that the first loop isn't being dropped. I guess I know what I'm doing after lunch. Thanks for catching that!
< 1729453793 905628 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Oh, that's creepy. Wonder why it's different? Is there a premium tier or something?
< 1729453814 381484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I declared it as Brainfuck so maybe something is wrong with that.
< 1729453909 429484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, no, it's not that. It chokes on the unicode ⇒
< 1729453928 148433 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Curious. I notice that it's Perl, so maybe they're using something in the Perl ecosystem instead of Pygments. For contrast, here's a Python version, expy in 24hrs: https://bpa.st/M3CAHS76F4E7R6HK3W3WZRBQC4
< 1729454213 792347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :half of that issue was reported here (2 1/2 years ago) https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/issues/17
< 1729454276 298627 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, cleaning out my gists, found something tangent to combinators: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/3c2b2a37f88e750f386fd9053f481351
< 1729454288 384269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm https://github.com/formorer/paste.pl/blob/master/lib/Paste/Template/Plugin/Highlight.pm#L494
< 1729454328 87538 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those names are from Metamath's intuitionistic logic database, but I did it like Agda with lambdas. I do *not* remember why I was doing this; maybe I was proving that the concept worked before writing a compiler from Metamath.
< 1729454466 713043 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh wait, I remember. https://github.com/sorear/metamath-turing-machines did the same thing, but to NQL, for making small TMs. So this must have been part of a proof-search project.
< 1729454521 622322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the reason I used the unicode arrow is that => interferes with Brainfuck code. And there's no nice ASCII substitute. =} looks bad.)
< 1729454620 203722 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: kvikkalkul uses (: for the <= arrow
> 1729454672 514626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ME14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143946&oldid=143944 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Commands */
< 1729454688 381533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. I already have machinery for skipping over BCL (sub-)terms. I could probably do "full non-interactive BCL" without too much trouble.
< 1729454758 981822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It becomes interactive with lazy evaluation and on-demand input; that doesn't fit well with the program as written.)
< 1729454802 321654 :timothytomato!~timothyto@2601:646:a201:5120:89ec:2344:bef2:c0f0 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] timothytomato
< 1729454830 258597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and lazy output too
< 1729455113 941559 :timothytomato!~timothyto@2601:646:a201:5120:89ec:2344:bef2:c0f0 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1729456505 546775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ME14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143947&oldid=143946 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-258) 10
> 1729457223 879550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel/Errors14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143948&oldid=143941 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+4) 10/* Using a wrong type in a variable */
< 1729458114 639744 :tromp!~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1729460146 615584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/PSTF Again1614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143949&oldid=143692 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+42) 10
< 1729460619 627636 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what was the "slightly broken" thing you found there anyways?
< 1729460622 993864 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haven't looked at it in a while.
> 1729460952 621565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ORK/Mihai Again1314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143950 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+2154) 10Created page with "[[Translated ORK/PSTF Again16|Warning: You have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 that is old and usedV46L}4=0 `lA`}y;}b@jSHOmZif_&E,WY>OKy2C+Z#7F.ca=Onk{G bT`j;O1-~Z!]]]  1. Drag out that uNJw..."
> 1729461144 924664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143951&oldid=143836 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+98) 10/* Make Translated ORK/PSTF Again16 it  scarier ! */
> 1729461170 278801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143952&oldid=143594 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+335) 10/* Make Translated ORK/Mihai Again10  Mor ary!  */
< 1729462153 627204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lymia: on some timings it moves on from a shuddered cell without checking it twice
< 1729462204 338750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which meant that ash couldn't lock it in its antishudder – it *could* trick it off the tape on some timings but that seems to be probabilistic and it zeroes the flag first on most timing combinations
> 1729462242 79075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Overload/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143953&oldid=143861 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-4) 10/* Translation */
< 1729463098 763427 :__monty__!~toonn@user/toonn QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1729464338 567243 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's intentional. If it sees the cell as 0 twice (total, not twice in a row), it assumes it's not the flag.
> 1729464724 474170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07And14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143954&oldid=71054 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (-30) 10fixed codeblock formatting
< 1729465120 389328 :Lymia!lymia@ayame.servers.aura.moe PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Reasoning there is that the anti-shudder clear (with fairly high chance (?), haven't done the math) should have already set the cell to zero two times in a row once that condition's reached, even if the code's not directly observed it.)
> 1729465222 645265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spain without the S14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=143955 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+7302) 10created pain
< 1729465359 673104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :empirically it seems to be well above 50%
> 1729465581 297488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Timothytomato14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143956&oldid=132870 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+26) 10
> 1729465797 358023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spain without the S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143957&oldid=143955 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+12) 10honestly idk the computational class
> 1729465964 394228 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainword14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=143958&oldid=132730 5* 03Timothytomato 5* (+29) 10nondeterministic
< 1729467776 408503 :supercode!~supercode@user/supercode JOIN #esolangs supercode :[https://web.libera.chat] supercode