> 1760145601 442709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165912&oldid=165863 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-23) 10 < 1760147897 62467 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1760149007 11391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ICBINB14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165913&oldid=89463 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+160) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ICBINB programming language on GitHub and marked the original implementation's resource as expired. > 1760151669 29895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Purboi 5* 10New user account > 1760152014 565217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165914&oldid=165911 5* 03Purboi 5* (+195) 10new user > 1760152238 407398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165915&oldid=165914 5* 03Purboi 5* (+0) 10oct 11 not 10 > 1760152335 798392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Purboi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165916 5* 03Purboi 5* (+117) 10new > 1760153290 943809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pur14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165917 5* 03Purboi 5* (+2428) 10basically everything > 1760153671 658482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165918 5* 03Purboi 5* (+0) 10Created blank page > 1760153706 15188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165919&oldid=165918 5* 03Purboi 5* (+61) 10/* hi */ new section > 1760153776 471170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165920&oldid=165919 5* 03Purboi 5* (+141) 10/* reply */ new section < 1760155749 699550 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1760158785 762038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was wrong about buried, it isn't a flag, it's a separate chain (the equivalent of a separate table) < 1760158834 620775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the buried flag is for monsters and the players, not items < 1760159616 542451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1760159806 641705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165921 5* 03None1 5* (+12086) 10Created page with ":{{Back|LogicGates}} :''Note: exGates uses numbers as commands instead of letters, so exGates-2 is incompatible with LogicGates.'' exGates is a family of LogicGates dialects. There are an infinite number of languages in exGates: exGates-2, exGates-3, etc. e > 1760159839 983366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165922&oldid=165760 5* 03None1 5* (+52) 10 > 1760159869 870083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165923&oldid=165921 5* 03None1 5* (+8) 10/* ASCII HI! in exGates-74 */ > 1760159898 194127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165924&oldid=165923 5* 03None1 5* (+155) 10/* Computational class */ > 1760160122 447824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165925&oldid=165698 5* 03None1 5* (+62) 10 > 1760160137 491383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ExGates14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165926 5* 03None1 5* (+32) 10Redirected page to [[LogicGates/exGates]] > 1760160175 20676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165927 5* 03H33T33 5* (+3022) 10Created page with "C* or Cx, pronounced "C Times", is an extension of the C++ programming language. It is designed to be much more flexible and easier to read and write with. Unfortunately, it is only a concept at the moment. =Major Changes= ==Outputting and Semicolons== Outputting and Inputt > 1760160189 46233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165928&oldid=165907 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* E */ > 1760160332 281935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165929&oldid=159863 5* 03H33T33 5* (+12) 10 > 1760160348 125346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165930&oldid=165927 5* 03H33T33 5* (-25) 10 > 1760160392 286257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BRaInFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165931&oldid=165715 5* 03None1 5* (+315) 10 > 1760160404 429792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165932&oldid=165929 5* 03H33T33 5* (+9) 10/* Concept */ > 1760160415 955237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165933&oldid=165932 5* 03H33T33 5* (+10) 10/* In Development */ < 1760165309 177491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see < 1760166119 639053 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1760166777 855561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1760167078 552164 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1760170316 601706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165934&oldid=165905 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+175) 10 < 1760171143 311290 :Awoobis!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon < 1760171152 773993 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :Awoobis < 1760171297 756130 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1760171830 869390 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1760171913 658540 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse > 1760171988 237234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165935&oldid=165934 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+184) 10 < 1760175780 845056 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1760176048 866046 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1760176127 939696 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse < 1760176428 871606 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1760176580 11404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hehe, shapez.io balancers can be pretty weird: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/r/shapez-balancer-phases.png (at 8x speed; the fact that 60/8 is not an integer is probably relevant) < 1760176682 26528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I only wanted to demonstrate that it can swap fully saturated inputs; the other three behaviors came up by accident) > 1760177982 983226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165936&oldid=165935 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+2376) 10 < 1760179723 71355 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1760181660 365173 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, that doesn't look too surprising < 1760181760 795515 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know you can do that sort of magic trick with Factorio splitters < 1760182488 572491 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1760182553 545488 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1760182566 803907 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1760183043 297384 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1760185749 744042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Nguyendinhtung201414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165937&oldid=165904 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+126) 10 > 1760185893 695262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165938&oldid=165801 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+87) 10 < 1760186039 821860 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1760186054 989500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ens14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165939 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+241) 10ens < 1760186556 894700 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1760187573 983521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165940 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+982) 10Distal Interphalangeal Joint > 1760188041 850921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Triolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165941&oldid=160987 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-10) 10 > 1760188363 954654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165942&oldid=165908 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+130) 10 > 1760188935 722558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Count counters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165943&oldid=145537 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+59) 10 > 1760195787 748494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165944&oldid=165942 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+198) 10/* Please delete this page */ > 1760196149 435437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165945&oldid=165940 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+1656) 10specs update < 1760196153 327499 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1760196169 566813 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1760196568 922907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165946&oldid=165945 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+154) 10consulted the professional opinion of audiologists > 1760197409 613476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165947&oldid=165649 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+110) 10 > 1760198116 407040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165948&oldid=165946 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+170) 10note > 1760200481 611879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165949&oldid=165948 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+246) 10specs > 1760200563 499450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165950&oldid=165949 5* 03NoWhy 5* (-6) 10 > 1760200877 789313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165951&oldid=165950 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+0) 10 < 1760200995 861814 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything < 1760202136 558267 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1760202226 61826 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1760203157 291438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1760203219 463887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reading https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.15327v2 and it notes that the word "esoteric" appears in the original INTERCAL documentation – I wonder whether that's the actual etymology of "esoteric programming language"? if so it would be older than the commonly accepted etymologies < 1760203281 247057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we'd have to ask Chris Pressey < 1760203403 647136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, there's at least one factual error in the paper, though, it says C-INTERCAL's ICL999I occurs as a result of being unable to parse a program incorrectly, it is actually due to the compiler not being installed correctly (INTERCAL almost doesn't have parser errors) < 1760203419 618999 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are compile-time errors but they have different causes < 1760203578 915757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also lists a language called "Malbodge" which is either a derivative that's very similar to the original, or a typo < 1760203620 822462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's good that people are studying esolangs academically, but I don't like this paper very much :-( < 1760204024 629083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, this paper says that Whitespace was designed by the same person as Idris, assuming that's accurate it's interesting < 1760205016 575210 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1760205406 455649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thisthat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165952&oldid=163215 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+25) 10[[Category:Deque-based]] < 1760205978 768535 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1760207431 872804 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1760207466 923907 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, any parser errors are actually just the users not understanding Intercal syntax < 1760207481 846771 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1760207727 652375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few cases where command-line options (or the lack of them) will cause a program to be rejected in the parser < 1760207761 452845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially involving the -t option to C-INTERCAL, which rejects code that C-INTERCAL understands but INTERCAL-72 wouldn't (note: this violates backwards compatibility as this would have been a runtime error in INTERCAL-72, not a compile-time error) < 1760207790 403262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think assigning to a constant might also be a compile-time error (unless you turn on the option to make that legal)? < 1760207803 365223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's debatable whether that's a parse error or not < 1760207838 804798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, to be precise, I meant assigning to a numeric literal < 1760208839 586276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, Whitespace and Idris both have Brady as primary author. Worth remembering that Whitespace *isn't* its own type specimen; the origin is the classic Perl module, Acme::Bleach. < 1760208857 943740 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Was Whitespace designed by the same person as Idris? > 1760208879 553038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: No, Whitespace and Idris were designed by different people. Edwin Brady designed Whitespace with Chris Morris, while he designed and implemented Idris independently. < 1760208983 17533 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1760209132 627047 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Technically correct. < 1760209302 945806 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1760209370 869044 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1760210689 448486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165953 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+6736) 10Created page with "John Backus won the Turing Award in 1977. He worked on a function-level programming language known as FP, which was described in his Turing Award lecture "Can Programming be Liberated from the von Neumann Style?Backus, John (August 1978). > 1760212046 369819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165954 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2007) 10I have a few concerns. I say this as the person that cited the same lecture for the blurb on the functional-paradigm category blurb. < 1760212095 411491 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LMK if more policy words are needed to explain that LLMs produce words of unknown provenance and can't be trusted to not plagiarize. < 1760212588 548554 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in > 1760212795 161410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165955&oldid=165951 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+103) 10linked implementation > 1760212876 250091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165956&oldid=165953 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+90) 10 > 1760212930 393714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165957&oldid=165955 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+41) 10/* Implementations */ < 1760213259 554808 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in > 1760213294 94833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165958&oldid=165954 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+373) 10I don't think generative AI should be used to generate articles for topics like this > 1760213306 510253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165959&oldid=165958 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+7) 10wording > 1760213337 731302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165960&oldid=165957 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10mark table headers > 1760213349 297578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165961&oldid=165960 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+23) 10[[Category:Languages]] < 1760213696 239093 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a way out of variable abstinence"? My friend, you can always use lambda calculus! The reason that we want to avoid binders is because nominal logic is strictly more complicated than tacit logic! > 1760213895 983534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02John Backus Turing Award Lecture10]]": this is apparently a review of a paper [https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/359576.359579], not a description of an esolang there is also some chance that it is not public-domain < 1760214015 957933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one meaningful copyright difference between the US and the UK is that in the US, things that are entirely machine-produced can't be copyrighted, whereas in the UK, they're considered copyrighted by the person who used the machine to create them – but that may be irrelevant if the LLM is plagiarising from a copyrighted source because in that case it isn't entirely machine-produced < 1760214037 591243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is frustratingly hard to work out whether LLM output is plagiarised or not, they're much better at covering their tracks than humans are < 1760214100 706563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, I consider the typical LLM output to not be much more useful than the prompt, so the deletion log message contains the primary useful content < 1760214124 306418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and even if it isn't LLM output it's still offtopic, as you pointed out) < 1760214260 434694 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: USA: If a machine happens to produce an output which is indistinguishable from a registered work with the Copyright Office (i.e. a copy exists at the Library of Congress) then the machine's output is also copyrighted. The machine is not covered by that copyright. < 1760214309 265897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, unless it's fair use (in which case it's still copyrighted, but not infringing) – there's some major court cases going on about that at the moment < 1760214319 277601 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :USA courts are still juggling exactly how to deal with this, but "the machine generated it for me" isn't actually a defense; at best, it can establish a fair-use defense, which is affirmative in USA. That is, "I was allowed to infringe: the machine generated it for me, and I didn't tell it to infringe!" < 1760214350 474958 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Common misconception! Lucky 10000: Fair use is an affirmative defense here, so it *is* infringement. It's just infringement that we're willing to overlook because we're so magnanimous~ < 1760214379 958935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if you have an affirmative defence I think it's a semantic issue whether anything was infringed or not < 1760214392 629317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is conceptually no different from not infringing < 1760214411 210310 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Affirmative defense here means that yes, the crime/tort was committed, but the defendant has a good reason for doing it. < 1760214416 386491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this sort of equivalence often becomes relevant in law, e.g. promising not to sue someone for copyright infringement is considered to be a form of license) < 1760214591 614945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had an analogy for this: https://awful.systems/comment/7846375 (and followed up in https://awful.systems/comment/8666898) about a drunk guy on a street corner who happens to be pretty good at reciting Star Wars. < 1760214626 293870 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Suppose a transient person on a street corner is babbling. Occasionally they spout what sounds like a quote from a Star Wars film. Intrigued, we prompt the transient to recite the entirety of Star Wars, and they proceed to mostly recreate the original film, complete with sound effects and voice acting, only getting a few details wrong." < 1760214636 758465 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Does it matter whether the transient paid to watch the original film (as opposed to somebody else paying the fee)? No, their recreation might be candid and yet not faithful enough to infringe. Is Lucas entitled to a licensing fee for every time the transient happens to learn something about Star Wars? Eh, not yet, but Disney’s working on it." < 1760214727 915697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, those links are also my commentary on the court cases. Unlike my peers, I'm not cheering for copyright, and I'm never going to cheer for Disney or Nintendo to get more power over their IP. < 1760214817 888273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember thinking that copyright laws being weakened would probably be a good thing, but this is just about the stupidest possible way to do it < 1760214830 546155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'd much rather they got weakened in an intentional and well-thought-out way < 1760214866 382210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't a too polite or too impolite problem rejected too at compile time? or a program that doesn't start with a statement header? < 1760214894 679633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a) yes, b) no but C-INTERCAL has a known bug in that regard (which may have become a feature over time) < 1760214920 6304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically the C-INTERCAL implementation parses bytes before the first statement identifier as being a statement on their own, but forgets to set the probability field < 1760214932 366281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it runs with 0% probability and thus actually allows you to put arbitrary information at the start of the program < 1760214943 950060 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, Nintendo is never going to go quietly. I mention *Sega v. Accolade* and *Galoob v. Nintendo*, which you might recognize; these are why it's legal to emulate and mod consoles in the USA. < 1760214976 47301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine Nintendo isn't very represented in the training data, except for things like screenshots and video streams < 1760214982 902307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If establishing a right to machine learning is required to establish a right to libraries, which we currently don't have, then so be it. < 1760215033 51506 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. To quote ZFG, "the only time we hear from Nintendo is copyright complaints". They're in there; they're the most popular toymaker in the world, controlling the most profitable IP in the world (Pokémon). < 1760215035 938673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you ask an LLM to generate a new game for you as a ROM for, e.g., the Nintendo 64, it is probably not going to be able to manage it < 1760215083 935371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :" a drunk guy on the street corner / a transient person" => strange euphemism < 1760215084 196744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Nintendo's main complaint about this would be LLMs generating, e.g., pictures of Mario – but that's more or less equivalent to the complaints artists have and not very related to video games < 1760215112 638480 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But Nintendo doesn't just claim copyright over the programs. They also claim character and setting copyrights. Nintendo's multi-front fight against Pocketpair (Palworld) shows that they aren't just defending the bytecode. < 1760215148 446490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right – but my point is that this is effectively equivalent to, e.g., the situation Disney is in < 1760215156 60667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, reciting most of the original A New Hope complete with sound effects would actually be kind of impressive if real time. < 1760215157 334221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I forgot that it was a homeless guy instead of a drunk guy, sorry. Neither attribute is essential for the legal theory, but that particular forum only allows debate if it follows specific rules about being insulting ("funny"). < 1760215158 236502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nintendo might fight harder than Disney does, but they might not < 1760215235 767449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bytes before the frist statement identifier as its own statement but 0% probability => hehe < 1760215245 636884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Disney's funding crap like Glaze and Nightshade; they know that diffusion models aren't going away, so they're funding ways to make their movies unusable as training data. It's obviously unworkable for information-theoretic reasons but still worth pointing out. < 1760215257 916979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it is an amazing bug because it's actually useful < 1760215272 316658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of like the way the reference Malbolge interpreter treats source code bytes that have the high bit set < 1760215292 826038 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: The joke is partially self-referential; this crowd would readily remember the scene in Return of the Jedi where C-3PO performs the entirety of Star Wars in Ewok language, complete with sound effects. < 1760215534 719574 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Anyway, the case I've been mentioning to people is *Authors Guild v Google*. This case is two decades old! Google was scanning books and authors didn't like it so they got their publishers to sue. Google won somewhat; they established the right to digitize owned copies and build private databases that summarize. < 1760215572 448903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, this sort of case has tendency to finish in a way that still leaves things unclear < 1760215635 987000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see *Anthropic* (and *Meta* to a much lesser degree) as furthering this right, so that a digital archivist may consider *all* of their collection to be eligible for private machine learning and distillation. I personally want this right so I can e.g. use perceptual hashing to manage photos that I've taken on a phone, using my laptop and fileserver. < 1760215703 465962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see a potentially reasonable outcome along the lines of "you're allowed to store and train on and process all this data, but you can't reproduce substantial amounts to the general public" – unfortunately the current AI companies would find that hard to comply with < 1760215725 539475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What *Anthropic* will likely end up saying for us is that our right to distillation doesn't extend to pirated materials, but only lawfully-purchased copies. At the same time, it'll further delimit the USA's right of first sale, which says that you can't force-attach licenses to resold copyrighted materials. < 1760215792 799302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Authors Guild* already says something like "you're allowed to store, train on, and process the book data *and* you may reproduce it for the public in a variety of forms provided that you're not just clearly making on-demand printable full-book copies" < 1760215817 468308 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN #esolangs * :unknown < 1760215901 86158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I'm most worried about would be a verdict which says, in effect, "big companies are allowed to do what they want with copyrighted material but individuals aren't" < 1760215938 486178 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah big companies can go fuck them self < 1760215941 106140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which really shouldn't be the outcome but somehow it's hard to be confident < 1760215951 61446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's been the case ever since the Mickey Mouse Act. < 1760216034 823778 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, part of why I'm so dour about copyright is that it's not *for* us. It's for large publishing houses. Blizzard is allowed to steal artwork from its employees and the commons; meanwhile it's a crime to copy RAM that Blizzard's game happens to occupy. Riot, Disney, and Nintendo have all been caught appropriating artwork too. < 1760216074 252301 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few special cases where big companies can do more than individuals, but I don't think there'll be a general judgement stating that for all cases < 1760216115 754721 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my current beliefs are currently along the lines of a) it is clearly possible to have sensible copyright rules, b) there are multiple reasonable forms those could take, c) the world's current copyright rules unfortunately aren't sensible < 1760216134 9276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Working-for-hire is *prima facie* unconstitutional. The copyright law, as written, explicitly disenfranchises artists and allows employers to own art that they could not have made themselves. Yet no constitutional challenge has ever been heard, nor ever will be heard. < 1760216140 268987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least it's mostly possible to work within them < 1760216175 347418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I've mostly just given up hope of having them fixed, and am merely hoping they won't become even worse < 1760216189 909350 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1760216199 445588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I guess the counterargument there is that if works for hire didn't work like that, nobody would ever hire artists < 1760216220 716805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I agree with it < 1760216227 741079 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the issue is that we consume art, art should not be consumed < 1760216238 98208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. We're running out of things that require labor, so we need to stop imagining that jobs are a good thing. It's time for a proper UBI. < 1760216279 259789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kkkkkkkkturbokom: Art is cultural warfare. The art produced by big capitalist publishers is, one way or another, pushing the ideals of capitalism and big publishing. < 1760216284 636802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I continue to view UBI as a desirable end goal with no realistic path to reaching it < 1760216320 847333 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :we are in society of consumes and is make more damages than all that fa*cist criminal in 20 years of tiranny (22 - 45) < 1760216336 131251 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :criminals* < 1760216413 279428 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kkkkkkkkturbokom: The current topic is about how copyright affects the wiki. Right now, we require everything to be public-domain or equivalent, even if it is generated by AI. We're talking about how copyright differs between the USA and UK. > 1760216425 466240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Akirademenech 5* 10New user account < 1760216458 8505 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry guys < 1760216482 807132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is interesting to note that almost everything I've deleted as a copyright violation would also have been undesirable for other reasons < 1760216485 906044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there might be a lesson there < 1760216496 246821 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It happens whenever a petrostate has a well-managed state fund, e.g. Alaska or Kuwait. So that's one realistic path for petrostates, at least. But I agree that it will likely take some [offtopic] or [redacted] before we make progress. < 1760216526 290696 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :see you < 1760216529 649170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does mean that i have little incentive to want to change the policy, as it isn't getting in the way < 1760216530 672642 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1760217131 694403 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1760217289 460772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165962&oldid=165915 5* 03Akirademenech 5* (+593) 10/* Introductions */ > 1760217642 817146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Akirademenech14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165963 5* 03Akirademenech 5* (+12) 10Created page with "Hello there!" < 1760218642 253270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to change what policy? < 1760218886 765822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: copyright < 1760220006 368058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1760220149 620926 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1760220727 901897 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: didn't fizzie say that we probably won't change that because the hosting provider insists on it, so we change it only if someone else pays for the hosting? < 1760221713 816182 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night < 1760222050 783890 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1760222480 453465 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember discussing it with them at least in any detail. There's probably an implicit assumption that nobody's making any money from the website, and that's it has broadly speaking a charitable purpose. But I don't think they've said anything about public-domain-vs-other-permissive-licenses or anything. < 1760222536 953753 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we were a registered UK charity, they might technically qualify for a (negligible) tax relief, but we're not. < 1760222875 757590 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could also potentially Gift Aid (a UK-specific charitable donation tax thing for individuals) the yearly domain renewal fee, which would in principle equate to a 20% discount (the charity can claim 25% of all their Gift Aid donations from the government) *and* a tax break for me. < 1760223156 693188 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it's more like a 56% discount all in all, if I did the numbers right. ...out of a yearly expense of (IIRC) $15.99 + 20% VAT, so probably not worth it. < 1760223757 964346 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(If it was a charity, I could also give it some of the money my employer allocates for each employee to send to charities once a year near the holiday season. Except, although I can't precisely say why, that does feel like it would be somehow unethical.) < 1760223841 550256 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1760224630 233441 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar > 1760224676 560555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165964&oldid=165961 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+812) 10chording