#include  #include  #include  #include  #include  #include   // delimiters & blocks #define def #define def
> 1760646245 461802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EZ132/Not C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166149 5* 03EZ132 5* (+3241) 10Created page with "'''Not C++''' (name provisional) is a programming language that is not [[C++]]. It can be compiled trivially into C++. ==Design & History== Not C++ is essentially C++ modified with a header file currently referred to as std1ib.h. This header consis
< 1760647022 351236 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Many languages have ternary. Algol-68 has abbreviated if elif else chains:
< 1760647023 458934 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :INT p = (c="a"|1|:c="h"|2|:c="q"|3|4)
< 1760647050 682564 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm I guess ternary can be used similarly anyway depending on precedence
< 1760647069 704208 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
< 1760647831 510754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760647896 915526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: hi! I haven't Internet-seen you in ages
< 1760648643 396785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : (CIM = Compute-in-memory, which adds a few extra word lines to a DRAM circuit to do elementary logic operations across a row, which typically has 64K bits or more.) ← now I'm imagining a very big embarrassingly-parallel vector calculation running across DRAM refresh cycles
< 1760648674 593219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the simplest version of this would be a mass zero in which you can tell the memory controller "please zero this block of memory for me" – that would probably be useful even on its own
< 1760648764 272782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still remember the discussions about background zeroing of non-allocated memory using, effectively, the kernel idle process (Linux doesn't do it because of cache pollution, although there have been discussions about doing it using nontemporal writes)
< 1760648780 733422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but just having the memory do it effectively instantly would bypass all those issues
< 1760648838 292835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : korvo: I prefer to say that GPUs aren't fast, it's the von Neumann chips that are plodding along ← it makes more sense to think of speed in terms of latency and throughput rather than as a single figure: GPUs have massive throughput but aren't very good at latency
< 1760649251 431093 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought of computer design in many ways, and I  also thought that it should avoid out of order execution, in the ways that is mentioned (and also to possibly make it simpler by not implementing out of order execution; the compiler can (hopefully) set up the order properly). I did not consider CIM but it also has some uses
< 1760649390 89586 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname
< 1760649488 737315 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IMO the Basic Stack TC proof is basically correct. int-e already pointed out the problems with it: 1) misses the data string setup (trivial to do with `push 1`, and obviously required for the rest to work, use `goto 2` for the loop) 2) Technically is using CT not BCT. The table is simple-translation of CT into BCT into Basic Stack, 3) the `istop;stop` is redundant on the 1x commands, but doesn't break anything. Other than that, it seems a valid idea. I 
< 1760649489 81759 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :had a play with the interpreter, and with an initial data string, it runs BCT examples with deletion replaced with a moving pointer, so functionally equivalent. It feels like it was designed for this.
< 1760649525 358034 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The BCT subtlety is a good observation. I worry I may have this mistake in the past. At first I couldn't see why it might be useful, but it looks like the effect is running one set of productions once, then looping on the offset productions, which could be useful for some clever run-once setup code.
< 1760649526 537227 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: could you just ask the GPU to do zeroing? or maybe CPUs could add background zeroing logic at the L3 cache?
< 1760649587 152758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I don't think it correctly implements a queue, the "push reg" command is intended to dequeue a queue but it pushes the address of the element it's dequeuing (with no way to dereference it), not the element itself
< 1760649629 874535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it increments `reg`
< 1760649639 692289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm not sure what the situation with GPUs accessing CPU memory is like at the moment – it may vary a lot based on the motherboard (I know that some computers make it efficient but most don't)
< 1760649640 515001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which points to the start of the queue on the stack
< 1760649651 792880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, reg is a pointer to the start of the queue on the stack, but the language has no way to read through the pointer
< 1760649690 414901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: condr does that
< 1760649691 251950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowing where the front of a queue is is not enough to be able to dequeue and branch on the dequeued element, you need to be able to actually read the element in question
< 1760649719 538555 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a `push 1` `push 0`  which works for the CT emulation 
< 1760649721 225708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah, you're right – that was the bit I was missing
< 1760649736 446790 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like that instruction was added specifically to make it non-bignum TC?
< 1760649835 975268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, it makes the stack "transparent" as the top of the page puts it
< 1760649877 554814 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I wasn't sure what bit you were missing, but sounds like int-e revealed it :) 
< 1760649911 428562 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1760649941 722364 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: your comments made me think that "Binary Encoded Cyclic Tag" _is_ a useful thing if 2 symbol encoding is the constraint. That makes something like 101001 valid BCT but a syntax error in "Binary Encoded Cyclic Tag".
< 1760649962 386761 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Failing on e.g. 101001 might be a common gotcha for BCT interpreters (if anything about BCT interpreters can ever be called 'common'). Something to test, like Deadfish 256 handling.
< 1760650005 120601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: The thing is that the first 0 in a program synchronizes everything so the feature is of very limited use.
< 1760650030 84799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: it's more of a wart ;)
< 1760650040 184142 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The setup / init code possibility is interesting
< 1760650058 342216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike the way that bitwise cyclic tag became the default, a much better option is "cyclic tag and invent your own syntax for it"
< 1760650067 670009 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A simple example shows this kind of behaviour : BCT: 101001 = 10 10 0 (11 0 10 0)* , in CT:  0 0; (1; 0;)*     (apologies for ad-hoc mixed notation, hopefully it's esotericly clear enough)
< 1760650070 576718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for TCness proofs, at least)
< 1760650163 693461 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the wiki page contributes to that problem, BCT is explained in more detail, and has clearer examples. I've used that, and am probably guilty of defaulting to BCT numerous times in the past
< 1760650173 305409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cyclic tag effectively having three symbols is awkward sometimes, but BCT doesn't really fix that problem
< 1760650202 832493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this was the major motivation behind inventing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag, which each genuinely can be expressed using two symbols)
< 1760650209 126423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Echo Tag and Grill Tag
< 1760650242 458913 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760650349 913727 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ; in CT is like a newline, if you think of the code as a finite list of 2 symbol productions, and deletion occurs by default as part of the process 
< 1760650580 682256 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, Echo Tag is categorized as 'unimplemented'. That might be a fun one to do. 
< 1760650593 869258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when talking to people who don't know how cyclic tag works already, I usually explain it as a program formed of "pop the top element, then push this string if the popped element wasn't 0"
< 1760650624 182181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Echo Tag's a bit weird because it's been manually compiled into a lot but I'm not sure that there's an automated compiler yet
< 1760650630 291698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, manually compiled from a lot
< 1760650658 541424 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Has it been used in a TC proof for something else?
< 1760650723 945674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1760650738 980623 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :base 10 Addition Automaton, at least
< 1760650744 575277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Addition_Automaton
< 1760650861 455566 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a totally new one to me, I'd a least recognised the names of the other * Tags
< 1760650972 543036 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the numeric output is visually interesting, you can see the structure in the digits. nice.
< 1760650993 646977 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :numeric tartan
< 1760650997 493257 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way I think about it is that almost all TC languages can trivially emulate either a counter machine or a tag system, and so making TC proofs easier is mostly accomplished by making easier-to-implement counter machines and easier-to-implement tag systems
< 1760651234 647638 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've always felt that there is a lack of confirmation example programs in tag systems or counter-machine to concretely verify a conversion.  
< 1760651255 749050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of the issue is that natively written tag is incredibly slow
< 1760651257 636455 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The BCT wiki page example gets used a lot , I've used it and someone else did recently
< 1760651267 915144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you need an optimising interpreter to be able to run it
< 1760651288 759375 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah
< 1760651361 552745 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760651365 996627 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm pretty sure I've written a 'hello world' in 2 reg Minsky machine and was going to figure out how to make an optimising interpreter to let it complete
< 1760651420 817236 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got distracted by the various MM notations, and how they weren't quite set up for 2-reg
< 1760651512 706805 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's right, I convinced myself PMMN was not TC for 2 registers, then decided it was, but not in the obvious way
> 1760651533 509705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise Cyclic Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166150&oldid=101531 5* 03Ais523 5* (+146) 10/* Example (Collatz sequence) */ credit where this example comes from
< 1760651552 350449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that example is used so much we should properly credit it to the original author
< 1760652007 97677 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For cyclic tag examples I created this BASIC inspired fantasy console idea with an data-string output encoding: https://esolangs.org/wiki/CTBASIC and Tektronix 4010 graphical output for a retro vibe
< 1760652024 356499 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure I've written it up well enough to do it justice
< 1760652145 739960 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a pre-calculated rotating cube example that runs using cyclic tag .... it's just output but it cycles over distinct animation frames 
< 1760652207 398392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(very) recently I've been interested in the question of compilations that run quickly in naive tag interpreters
< 1760652209 457847 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never quite figured out how to do more complex arbitrary conditional branching in CT
< 1760652252 34724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think running a program at a speed that's n log(n) slower than the original is possible (I have a sketch proof at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Globe but the details of both halves are missing)
< 1760652281 286797 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you mean finding useful algorithms that run well in tag systems, or something else?
< 1760652292 897801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a compilation scheme, e.g. Turing machine to tag system
< 1760652300 155535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which doesn't lose any more performance than necessary
< 1760652309 406809 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aha
< 1760652320 125773 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :efficient translations
< 1760652320 492963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all tag system TCness proofs go via counter machines and store the counters exponentially, so you get a double-exponential slowdown
< 1760652355 762960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although one of the exponentials is fairly to remove with an optimising interpreter)
< 1760652369 617672 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice to see another user in the wiki wjho likes basic tho
< 1760652412 643209 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that's what I was trying to figure out with CTBASIC, how to implement higher level programming concepts (mostly)directly.
< 1760652421 285074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC was my first programming language
< 1760652632 883237 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: same...well technicakly it was batch but only dir and cd, as a language i actually coded in itwas basic (and a bunch of hopping on python for like 3 days then leaving it for 3 months then back then out ad nauseam))
< 1760652719 310363 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :blame me being too busy doing weird shit in a c64 emulator i got just for the games and ended up using for peek and poke shitfsckery to even bother with python for a while
< 1760652745 965748 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Getting more direct high level effects in tag systems tends to blow up the number of productions required, that seems to be the trade off. They can be easily generated following simple rules, but they take up space.
< 1760653351 513540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760653369 914926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760654111 357876 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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> 1760655423 92703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166151&oldid=154435 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+18) 10
> 1760655452 32279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166152&oldid=166151 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+5) 10
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> 1760655570 134143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boomerlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166154&oldid=115671 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+14) 10
< 1760655691 810634 :jgardner!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl CHGHOST sid553797 :user/meow/jgardner
< 1760655825 265299 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1760656747 872386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166155&oldid=166089 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+120) 10changed 5/8,1;/14,2;1/8,3 added infinite series stuff as well
< 1760656755 272811 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
> 1760656820 960893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166156&oldid=166155 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10counted stuff
> 1760656858 754017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166157&oldid=166156 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
> 1760656872 536254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166158&oldid=166157 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
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< 1760658170 922085 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PART :#esolangs
< 1760658712 693592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's another solid way to look at GPUs, yeah.
< 1760658738 409945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Oh hi! Sorry I haven't been on top of that Busy Beaver stuff. Feel free to ping me if I'm blocking progress.