> 1761439049 354814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166713&oldid=163731 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+12804) 10
< 1761443057 364924 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761447902 806228 :op_4!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761447937 911902 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1761449491 283363 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is deliberately attacking your own pokemon in the Pokemon game (in a double battle) more common or less common than underpromotion in chess?
< 1761450327 82544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :much more common, I think
< 1761450354 471720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been tournaments where it was part of the most common strategy (e.g. using Beat Up on a Pokémon who has Justified)
< 1761450426 925772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually the teams are designed to do it, using attacks that have very powerful side effects and do hardly any damage
< 1761450675 80489 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, it makes sense (I have not seen many tournaments). However, there are also cases where it was not the intention when making up the team (or if it is a random battle).
< 1761450679 430253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one game I played (against an opponent who I think was probably a streamer based on the number of spectators who joined) went like this: on turn 1, my Smeargle used Ally Switch, my opponent's Bisharp used Sucker Punch (failing because I hadn't selected attacking moves), my opponent's Kangaskhan attacked the slot Smeargle swapped into with a normal-type move (failing because I had swapped a Ghost-type there), then my Jellicent used Trick Room; on turn 2, my 
< 1761450680 940810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Smeargle used Volt Switch on Jellicent activating its Weakness Policy and switching in Pelipper who started rain, then Jellicent used Water Spout and OHKOed both opposing Pokémon, on turn 3 Jellicent used Water Spout again and OHKOed both of the opponent's replacement Pokémon
< 1761450703 514186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :smeargle was level 1 and had low special attack, so the Volt Switch on the Jellicent only did marginal damage
< 1761450756 53817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, this was mostly a case of almost all my opponent using the same team and picking the same moves in the same contexts, so I had built specifically to counter it
< 1761450853 479146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :attacking a team-mate in a case where you hadn't planned the interaction when designing the team is rare, I don't know how that corresponds to underpromotion in frequency
< 1761450903 521086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(actually necessary underpromotions in chess are rare, but it's not so rare to underpromote to a rook if that gives a trivially winning endgame, because it reduces the chance of accidentally stalemating the opponent compared to promoting to a queen)
< 1761451110 166495 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I once heard of a situation where someone underpromoted to rook because they did not have a extra queen available near the board and did not want to stop the game to request it.
< 1761451815 463422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the normal solution to that problem is to use an upside-down rook
< 1761451954 323726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read that it is allowed in USCF but not allowed in FIDE.
< 1761452251 931699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine it isn't normally a problem at grandmaster level because there are very few positions likely to arise in a grandmaster game where one player has two queens, but neither player thinks they're losing badly enough to resign
< 1761452269 730780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it has happened, I think – usually involving multiple queens for both players – but is very rare)
> 1761452283 117918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166714&oldid=165933 5* 03H33T33 5* (+4) 10
> 1761452360 946279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WTF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166715&oldid=159223 5* 03H33T33 5* (-88) 10
< 1761452920 669976 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In shogi there is no underpromotion but you can (usually) choose to not promote. Some pieces are strictly a superset of the moves that would be possible when not promoted; is it ever deliberately not promoting in such a case?
< 1761452944 378198 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The reason that I can think for doing this would be to avoid the rule prohibiting checkmate by dropping a pawn; maybe there is tsume shogi which involves it, possibly with discovered check by capturing opponent's pawn)
< 1761454017 100636 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761454320 911845 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have the full copy of the Pokemon team that you had for that game?
< 1761454450 700992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: oh, I searched through my old backups and think I was mentally conflating two different games
< 1761454458 287828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Ally Switch trick was from a different game
< 1761454491 516836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the actual game, Smeargle used Spiky Shield instead
< 1761454579 898626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a version of the team from around that time (I don't know whether it's specific the team I actually used): http://nethack4.org/pastebin/27.txt
< 1761454613 465949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a later version of the same team had Ally Switch, but wasn't using Volt Switch by then
< 1761454636 814728 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why are you talking about Pokemon? (not to shoo you away just wondering lol)
< 1761454673 421190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: zzo38 does that sometimes
< 1761454685 770615 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!
< 1761454688 809631 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761454690 825107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's probably offtopic but I'm not sure where the appropriate place would be
< 1761454712 469944 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761454713 933766 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who is zzo38?
< 1761454716 205430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been some attempts to make competitive Pokémon into an esolang but I don't think they worked very well
< 1761454736 15202 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not surprising
< 1761454762 438649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, I'm actually not sure what complexity class solving Pokémon is in
< 1761454780 330496 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm
< 1761454787 260296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially given that the attempts by the game developers to prevent endless battles didn't quite work properly
< 1761454820 259149 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldnt be surprised if Pokemon is as powerfull as uknow good ol' magic the gathering
< 1761454825 14918 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*was
< 1761454842 849122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, some Turing-complete languages struggle to be Turing-complete, some achieve it trivially
< 1761454856 130777 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact
< 1761454865 671586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :M:tG is well into the "achieve it trivially" zone by now, it can do it lots of different ways and with some very simple constructions
< 1761454874 178524 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761454875 808601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :other Turing-complete games, like Netrunner, it's much harder
< 1761454888 499656 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we love TC games around here
< 1761454899 481898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd suggest Pokémon is bounded by PP count, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I'm old-fashioned and stuck with an old generation.
< 1761454927 607207 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tbh, I dont know, I dont play much Pokemon anymore, and barely remember how it works
< 1761454939 636321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Recycle + Leppa Berry + Heal Pulse is the best-known combination to intentionally create an infinitely long battle
< 1761454952 237281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is somewhat infamous because, in some cases, you can do it despite attempts by your opponent to stop you
> 1761454967 279635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166716&oldid=166041 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+307) 10
< 1761454974 116052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that combination wasn't possible until generation V, there are some combinations that were possible earlier though
> 1761454993 712360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166717&oldid=166621 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
< 1761455030 335574 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im just throwing things out here, but could missingno not be useful... somehow?
< 1761455034 964470 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I thought should be made up a rule change in Pokemon would be that some items and some movse are "unrecoverable". If a item is unrecoverable then it cannot be recovered during the same battle if it is consumed, and if a move is unrecoverable then that move's PP cannot be recovered during the battle.
< 1761455039 339107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there's also the infamous "two Wobbuffets who both have Leftovers" infinite loop in generation III, which was plausibly possible to trigger by accident because Leftovers is a good item to use on Wobbuffet and that was the only requirement for triggering it – it got patched out two different ways in Generation IV)
< 1761455070 900337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: there was a very complicated rule change at Smogon intended to try to prevent infinite battles without affecting any legitimate strategy
< 1761455173 260254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, apparently in the end they just gave up trying to find all the possibilities and just banned Leppa Berry + Harvest and Leppa Berry + Recycle
< 1761455183 174937 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761455216 431954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which wouldn't be enough unless you ban them both existing anywhere in the team, because you can give an opponent the Leppa Berry with one Pokémon and then steal it back with another (who has Harvest or Recycle)
< 1761455258 675377 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesnt Nintendo just give up lol
< 1761455329 26957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the previous versions of the rule looked like this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banning-leppa-berry.3544604/page-2#post-6335822
< 1761455381 237426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: oh, Game Freak (who actually make the Pokémon games, even though Nintendo own them) apparently gave up on this sort of stuff years ago (probably decades by this point)
< 1761455420 273652 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: great, I would guess there propably is more looping in the newer versions then lol
< 1761455435 108406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :singles hasn't been reasonably balanced since Generation IV (and even that required a lot of bans), doubles is more balanced but has also been struggling somewhat
> 1761455449 759781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166718 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+186) 10Created page with "Imagine all of the C++, C, and C# Esolangs were all put in one list  ''thats what this is for''  well thats what I was going for.  If you know how to do this, please let me know"
> 1761455496 860693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166719&oldid=166620 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* esolangs */
> 1761455545 717156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166720&oldid=166689 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-9) 10/* How it functions */
> 1761455617 918005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166721&oldid=166720 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+30) 10/* How it functions */
< 1761455638 400571 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is why I thought that making some moves/items unrecoverable might help, and adding something like the fifty move rule of chess might also help.
< 1761455747 23787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm this Smogon forums thread is actually amazing
< 1761455758 591582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the previous version I linked was really simple compared to some of the later ones
> 1761455848 435573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pass a symbol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166722&oldid=136619 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* NOR */
< 1761456041 975588 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: could I mayhaps ask a question about 90?
< 1761456053 874264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761456127 684057 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks! I was just wondering if it was possible to have two(or three ect) 90 programs destroying each other? and also is it possible to have it destroy itself?
< 1761456171 136274 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry if this is answered on the page)
< 1761456196 874169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :destroying each other is definitely possible, if the timing is right
< 1761456201 647526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :destroying itself, I'm not sure about
< 1761456222 470699 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe the latter question technically more is a computer question
< 1761456231 409886 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(can a program have access to itself)
< 1761456239 294953 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but thanks!!!
< 1761456250 18964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the spec doesn't prevent the program destroying itself, but the usual implementation would involve attaching a debugger and a program can't attach a debugger to itself, so maybe it would be simpler to disallow that
< 1761456268 959588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a program can totally have access to its own memory, it just has to do it a different way from accessing a different program's memory)
< 1761456279 794406 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761456286 375239 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!!!
< 1761456378 895782 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, for the issue of having enough software running, could you not in principle just have a bunch of slightly differently set up instances of the same program?
< 1761456422 627329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of – the problem is that 90 programs run as quickly as possible and don't have any way to delay or the like
< 1761456430 679769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there's a risk that the first program would just exist before you tried to run the second one
< 1761456457 559569 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such it's going to be unreliable to have a 90 program affecting a second copy of the 90 interpreter because you can't guarantee it's still running at the time
< 1761456477 255616 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, i wanst talking about 90 programs specifically
< 1761456484 210039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(affecting the program itself, while technically possible, wouldn't help at all because that just changes what the program says and you could have written it like that in the first place)
< 1761456489 344590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1761456491 934682 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just like any program
< 1761456544 410243 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the issue of 90 programs just running as fast as they can, isnt there a way to force a program to run at a certain rate?
< 1761456558 103704 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not within 90
< 1761456565 67320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd have to use a separate program to do it
< 1761456593 859576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or edit a separate program into doing that, which would be harder than just editing it to do what you wanted it to do in the first place)
< 1761456599 74998 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea I know
< 1761456680 843659 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the 90 program affects itself, if it is process by an interpreter then the interpreter could be damaged, or it damages the 90 program in a way which depends on the representation it has after it has been read from disk, possibly it has pointers, etc
< 1761456686 50302 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but is there a way to do that on a computer?
< 1761456695 815852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not easily
< 1761456699 910535 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1761456710 127749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could run the program in an emulator and tell the emulator to run slowly
< 1761456713 889706 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats quite surprising actually
< 1761456715 504980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you could single-step it in a debugger
< 1761456722 454686 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761456737 687357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you could tell the kernel to give it only small timeslices (but that makes it run at full speed for a bit, stop for a while, at full speed for a bit, etc.)
< 1761456770 430194 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea something like that I was thinking
< 1761456775 575557 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could also underclock the computer, which would slow down everything
< 1761456789 739048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure how much underclocking modern computers can cope with
< 1761456789 859918 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that isnt very useful though
< 1761456803 679454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there have been historical computers that could be underclocked all the way to 0 but I think that doesn't work nowadays)
< 1761456817 213536 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :90 is very dependent on the system it is on
< 1761456866 591589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761456884 419338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would be a major flaw in most practical languages, but is interesting to experiment with with esolangs
< 1761456903 574569 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you kinda have to think of the computer as part of a specific programs function, because that(in principle) can change
< 1761456913 831809 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one mans flaw is another mans experiment
< 1761457056 906649 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i will definetily be experimenting a lot with (theoretical) programming technique's of 90
< 1761457663 680815 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a article in my user page on esolang wiki about some games; it mentions that Magic: the Gathering is Turing-complete but possibly someone should add details about this. (Also, can subgames and infinite loops make it uncomputable?)
< 1761457685 874187 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, can a generalized variant of mahjong somehow be Turing-complete?)
< 1761457861 215583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1761457883 376374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :contains a simple proof of M:tG Turing-completeness (simple in terms of the M:tG setup, less simple in terms of proving the resulting language TC)
< 1761457896 865372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might want to link it from your userpage
< 1761457969 504578 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I will link it from the user page.
> 1761458062 589593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Game rules14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166723&oldid=162310 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+59) 10Link to [[Flooding Waterfall Model]]
< 1761458487 594339 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why do you have two pokemons with mega evolution stones? (I can think of a few reasons why someone might do that, but I don't know which one(s) are applicable here)
< 1761458512 740526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: it's designed for a format where you can only use four Pokémon from your team
< 1761458529 756019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though you have six on your team
< 1761458650 726736 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK. (I should have thought of that, considering that they are level 50, but somehow I did not)
< 1761458854 150545 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761458860 506296 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nooooooooo
< 1761458862 70631 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761458950 419318 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, i was thinking if there was an interesting way to make the main form of data in an esolang threads(and threads within threads and so on)
< 1761458983 593449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere7: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Annihilator
< 1761458985 101162 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761458993 292689 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!
< 1761459271 102400 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761459288 102534 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
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< 1761460024 439592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"especially given that the attempts by the game developers to prevent endless battles didn't quite work properly" => yeah, it's weird, especially when it's because of endless switching pokemon. you'd think they can put a limit on that, like requiring a move that makes progress before you can switch in the same pokemon in again (or the same pair of pokemons for a double battle).
< 1761460167 901654 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it was just some overpowered healing wearable item that outheals even Struggle backlash damage then it would be harder to prevent infinite loops, but I don't think that can happen in competitive pokemon
< 1761460346 106046 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought of that too, and my idea was to add a rule that if, for six consecutive turns, all active pokemons switch out, then no pokemon is allowed to select switching out during the immediately next turn (after that, this restriction goes away; it also goes away if anyone executes a move)
< 1761460468 78288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Regenerator heals on switch, for more than Struggle recoil damage
< 1761460491 594980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you have both teams with two regenerators with no PP left, optimal strategy is to switch forever
< 1761460497 289138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is unlikely to happen by chance, though
< 1761460573 124780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that an ability that you can get in a competitive match?
< 1761460577 667933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761460582 585422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1761460597 300250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be weird to have it on two different Pokémon in a team, but not completely ridiculous
< 1761460642 329775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, Nintendo just released a new Pokémon game with no PP mechanics at all and so no Struggle either. and it's not like the first generation games when the devs had no experience yet and the console was limited.
< 1761460660 504114 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and you'd need that for two teams, right?
< 1761460665 877224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1761460701 757988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PP is weird as mechanics go, especially given how it is often irrelevant but often isn't
< 1761460714 317783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :max PPs have generally been gradually reducing over time, too
< 1761460774 586139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which has made it more relevant in theory, but the games have been getting less balanced which counteracts that (as unbalanced battles often don't last very long)
< 1761460787 444739 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the new Pokemon game is not like the ordinary Pokemon game though; it is a different game, anyways.
< 1761460789 747105 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't seem weird. decking out is often irrelevant in Magic because usually you want to kill in the first few turns, but sometimes it is relevant, and you can build decks that deliberately want to deck out the opponent
< 1761461153 210796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the nonstandard rules that I had mentioned (as well as something a bit similar to the fifty move rule of chess) would be used, then I think that would help with that as well as with a few other things, I think.
< 1761461354 450881 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761461465 777123 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some of these nonstandard rules will not help if it is intended to be compatible with standard rules, but some are compatible with standard rules. Unrecoverable moves/items are not compatible but the rule about six consecutive turns with switching would be compatible, I think.)
< 1761466021 101122 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761466522 624344 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166724&oldid=166698 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* G */ added [[GRG]]
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< 1761472514 834951 :Everything!~Everythin@88.155.56.97 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
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< 1761474769 943150 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761477141 225280 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761477608 483395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5*  10New user account
< 1761478500 901979 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1761478722 881239 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761478742 889351 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1761480732 233157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166725&oldid=166681 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* See also */
< 1761480914 102484 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761481791 956416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166726&oldid=166694 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+482) 10You're tailor-made for this day and age
> 1761482436 172432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166727&oldid=166725 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-22) 10/* Description */
> 1761482764 419329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unrepetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166728&oldid=166683 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+389) 10
< 1761484179 100748 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761484949 483179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs : `' sunday
< 1761484991 391654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' sunday
< 1761484993 806736 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :759) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. \ 918) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday.
> 1761485485 847670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166729&oldid=166699 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+266) 10/* Introductions */
< 1761485918 19747 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
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< 1761487147 100513 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761487202 971233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166730 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1184) 10Created page with "IEBEL is an [[OISC]] [[esoteric programming language]] short for in-equality branch esotering language by [[Esoboring ideas] which doesn't have any interpreters yet ==Memory== Every register has the values of 0-255 ==The instruction== ===Main things=== it is like 
< 1761487754 484726 :pr1sm!~halloy349@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :halloy3497
> 1761487779 683032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Trilime14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166731 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+146) 10Created page with "nooooo, dont change iiit!!!! --~~~~"
> 1761488097 39242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166732&oldid=77727 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-13) 10brainfuck does not have a stack. Added stub, as there are only example programs and no actual specification.
< 1761488219 535271 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761488662 248631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166733&oldid=166730 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1) 10
> 1761488693 377109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166734&oldid=166727 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+13) 10/* Description */
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> 1761489448 163341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166735&oldid=166710 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+34) 10Added opcodes
< 1761489588 528272 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1761489596 761756 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
> 1761489828 760894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166736&oldid=166733 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+5) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1761489892 71360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166737&oldid=166736 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-46) 10/* See also */ delete oisc and esolang from see also, as they are just the category of the language, and they have already been linked
> 1761489906 11055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166738&oldid=166737 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+7) 10/* Hello world simple version */
> 1761490034 16199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166739&oldid=166738 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+48) 10/* See also */
> 1761490213 653265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IEBEL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166740 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+371) 10Created page with "== See also section hello! so, I'd just like to say, you are using the see also section weirdly. it is mostly for language's and such that are similar to this language, and so it shouldn't have hello world, just because you've implemented a hello world. --~
> 1761490230 417315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166741&oldid=166740 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+3) 10
> 1761490247 16780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166742&oldid=166739 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+0) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1761490717 980480 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761491218 1551 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any esolangs that basically function by destroying their own rules. and is it possible to make that Turing complete?
< 1761492054 969084 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1761493389 36794 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: there's a language that destroys integers so you can no longer use them, does that count?
< 1761493410 524606 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
< 1761493427 597939 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: like I guess it technically does, but not *really* since integers is data
< 1761493441 625059 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also forte doesn't really destroy it, just, redefines them
< 1761493462 842349 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when im saying rules im thinking like uknow how a CA has rules, or syntax rules, ect ect
< 1761493579 689418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forte isn't really destroying its own rules, it just ignores a rule that most other languages have
< 1761493602 41798 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: great way to word it lol
< 1761493617 37682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL allows you to compile syntax errors, then later on you can create new syntax to give the syntax errors a meaning
< 1761493627 383480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they'll actually run
< 1761493637 751495 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1761493639 392854 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761493646 463857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Is creation of new rules also possible? If not then the system will invariably degenerate as it loses degrees of freedom.
< 1761493659 926534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is interesting because it is actually a compiled language – a syntax error compiles into code that checks to see if the syntax it contained has been defined yet)
< 1761493685 117651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that would be manageable if there were infinitely many rules (or infinitely many destroyable parts of a single rule)
< 1761493690 789382 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I'm saying Forte is destroying numbers, not rules
< 1761493710 216546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forte's a bit like that, in that after you destroy a number you have no way to get it back, but it's still TC because there are infinitely many numbers to start with
< 1761493731 563843 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are plenty of machines which boot into an unrestricted mode at first, allowing many sorts of features to be accessed, but then is locked into a restricted mode for the rest of its execution. Some of those machines support further restriction of features, too. But they usually have a minimum amount of features which is enough to write basic logical operations.
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< 1761493749 248179 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, it's somewhat like that brainfuck variant that destroys its own tape cells so they can no longer be modified
< 1761493758 100412 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761493768 472117 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1761493774 367975 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. I suppose I'm assuming a finite number of rules; clearly I'm too logic-brained today.
< 1761493788 142249 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korov: lol
< 1761493859 661593 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe a program is made up of: a rule that gets destroyed, then a number, which equals some measure of decay(of the language itself)and then a new rule that gets created when that number is reached
< 1761493869 657317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: so a common way I go about esolang design, which you might also want to try, is to take your idea and try to work out what the simplest possible version of it is that could possibly be TC
< 1761493882 7236 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: true
< 1761493888 281350 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :frog it, ill go try something
< 1761493894 917028 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye! irc is lagging like hell
< 1761493901 697864 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the aim is to act entirely by destroying rules, we need infinitely many rules for it to work, and the simplest possible implementation is probably "each rule can only be used once"
< 1761493905 345114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IRC is always laggy.
< 1761493926 603093 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761494123 66293 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IOW the system's dynamics are a set of permuted sequences of the nats, N → N. Each initial segment of such a sequence corresponds to a legal move. Pretty sure by Gödelian reasoning that this can't be decided; in particular I don't think it's possible to compute a sufficiently-correct approximation of how the rules work by observing legal sequences.
< 1761494305 644598 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait, we do have the perfect thing that destroys its own rules
< 1761494351 42682 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashalash
< 1761494355 623125 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761494385 691830 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761495022 879739 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1761495079 842614 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok people, I think ive gotten an idea for the concept
< 1761495088 633268 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one that might be able to be TC
< 1761495114 2949 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :every rule is in a specific rule definition syntax/language(one is to be chosen)
< 1761495146 92129 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then each line is "delete *command* from every rule".
< 1761495202 536464 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the start of a program there is a string in the same language of rule's, which gets added to every rule statement in the program
< 1761495231 837187 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this includes the string itself and every *command*(or string technically))
< 1761495274 923036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashalash and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA destroy the rules in the program as it uses them
< 1761495275 816470 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i beleive an abstain and reinstate (INTERCAL style) may be useful, but I dont know if its required
< 1761495296 661626 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b-jonas: thanks!
> 1761495330 347745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07///14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166743&oldid=159964 5* 03B jonas 5* (+97) 10/* See also */
< 1761495365 84415 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does /// really destroy its own rules?
< 1761495379 552995 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*really*
< 1761495380 782282 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761495566 784244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of /// more as being in the "program queue/stack" genre, where bits of the program delete themselves after they've run but you can add more
< 1761495761 856481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :execline does that too
< 1761495780 196656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except I don't think it takes advantage of the way the genre typically does loops)
< 1761496002 168319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761496012 552021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1761497147 662576 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: in fact
< 1761497160 141814 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(im replying to the /// thing btw)
< 1761497167 647103 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(idk what else you may have been sending)
< 1761497291 886928 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, for the specific language idea I have proposed, does anyone know a good "rule language"?
< 1761497433 988750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you have to work it out to fit around the rest of the language
< 1761497461 303548 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh?
< 1761497467 531828 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry I dont fully understand
< 1761497516 798470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the rules are the core of the language you're designing
< 1761497525 432313 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761497541 641048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need to work out how much power they need to be interesting (i.e. you don't want a single rule to be able to trivialise everything, nor do you want to make the rules so weak you can't get interesting computaiton)
< 1761497552 705689 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I Guess in that view underload destroys rules too
< 1761497582 15782 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: by destroy, I dont just mean redefine or similar, I mean delete from existing rules
< 1761497590 284633 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: thanks!!!
< 1761497635 39560 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw i wad thinking that the rules should be the literal rules of the language itself
< 1761497636 29606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There aren't any good rule languages. We have good completeness results for several classes of grammar, which can be seen as rewriting systems, but none of them are...good. It doesn't help that "rule" isn't a single standard thing.
< 1761497638 668977 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*was
< 1761497680 724537 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh no
< 1761497722 718970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one of my pet peeves is how bad the popular grammar specification languages are
< 1761497750 999981 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right!? ANTLR's the biggest disappointment.
< 1761497770 978872 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I hadn't even looked deeply into ANTLR's syntax because I was busy being disappointed with the semantics
< 1761497786 272353 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess technically by rules I mean interpreter
< 1761497800 624639 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but each part of the interpreter is in its own little
< 1761497801 681983 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing
< 1761497803 172457 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could clumsily knock down function definitions in efghij. That's why efghij shops have those big empty warehouse floor spaces, and barely payed interns who rebuild their code from backups when necessary.
< 1761497872 634908 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Sure. What we're saying is that the choice of objects (the things we manipulate) is connected to the choice of rules (the things that manipulate objects for us). It's easy to see the general idea, but we always have to specialize it for the domain at hand.
< 1761497895 722413 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: in fact
< 1761497910 681821 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also thanks for all the help guys, really do appreciate it)
< 1761497957 851921 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rules are already defined, the only thing missing is like, the language to write the rules in
< 1761497972 22693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, what's wrong with the language that you already used for the definitions?
< 1761497985 401940 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats not a formal language though
< 1761497996 351376 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need like something an interpreter could interpret
< 1761498050 809660 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same thing. Like, if you formalize the language you already have, then you'll need to give formal meanings to that language which gives meaning to your rules; if you translate the rules into some other syntax, then you'll need to give formal meanings to that syntax.
< 1761498067 63403 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498077 222955 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fuck it im making my own rule definition syntax
< 1761498093 474960 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats most definitely easier than trying to find something good
< 1761498106 384579 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(As Tarski pointed out: there's no ultimate semantics for something as simple as the natural numbers. Maybe we shouldn't try to figure out problems in an ultimate manner.)
< 1761498158 941873 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761498166 911582 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one technically possible thing(if the language is Turing complete) is to make the rules be defined within the language itself
< 1761498168 531289 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is
< 1761498169 879624 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stupid
< 1761498173 272579 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but oh well
< 1761498182 636853 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'll do that one day
< 1761498194 275679 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not something TC-ness does, though?
< 1761498214 32525 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it isnt
< 1761498232 832268 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want to interpret a language, then that interpreter must be relative to the machine that you're using for interpretation. Even if you're a human doing symbols on paper, you're still interpreting relative to the paper and symbols.
< 1761498241 692859 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761498244 759218 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats true
< 1761498269 52783 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC languages aren't defined in terms of themselves. Rather, it's common for programmers to *bootstrap* a language by implementing itself as a demonstration of its generality and usefulness.
< 1761498292 168715 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498308 484175 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By modus tollens, many programmers consider a language weak for general-purpose use when it can't express an interpreter for itself, or when its interpreter/compiler is ugly.
< 1761498319 332548 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeayeayeayea
< 1761498319 833038 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(me when I have nothing to say)
< 1761498347 990963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mcmillen.dev/language_checklist.html Haaave you seen this yet? This is a great checklist for *serious* languages. Like, stuff you might take to your boss when you have a job in a decade.
< 1761498361 257556 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways, I will now make a rule language to describe the rules of this language
< 1761498372 276549 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no I haven't actually, ill go look at it!
< 1761498375 993044 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This wouldn't apply to most stuff on the wiki. I filled it out for Monte and Cammy, but mostly because I have a serious contempt for mainstream opinions.
< 1761498432 537989 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: There's a great meme in the fourth section. "The most significant program written in your language is its own compiler", followed by "The most significant program written in your language isn't even its own compiler". This is what we mean when we say that a good TC language should be able to implement itself.
< 1761498449 772398 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498472 554552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But note also in the fourth section, "No language spec", and "'The implementation is the spec'". These are serious critiques; Python's core team still doesn't take the latter seriously.
< 1761498501 742502 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498590 870426 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761498619 672264 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I assume the checklist isnt meant to apply to esolangs?
< 1761498637 96780 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they definetily lack comprehensible syntax
< 1761498763 774645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/92d70fbcbe1291f1aa7c5cedca90345b8a95f6cc/checklist.txt Here's the checklist for Monte.
< 1761498793 883271 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Recall that an esolang is just a language that isn't notable enough for Wikipedia. It's really not more complex than that. I wrote more words here: https://lobste.rs/s/ksrmbf/let_s_take_esoteric_programming
< 1761498811 983038 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1761498813 284984 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498826 82798 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yes, malbolge is not esolang)
< 1761498830 214598 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :brainfuck is notable enough for WP:)
< 1761498859 33207 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :malbolge. is notable enough. for WP.... XD
< 1761498859 533732 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not to undermine your point though korvo, your not wrong
< 1761498916 650910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think of Brainfuck or Malbolge as esoteric! I think that folks use "esoteric" as a shield to avoid having to deal with the typical barbs of capitalism: how will you monetize? what's the license? would you sign this contract?
< 1761498935 422391 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498939 547092 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but wow
< 1761498946 580333 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they are just hard
< 1761498951 987011 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to usee
< 1761498966 714350 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because those lead to less obvious barbs: why isn't it readable? why isn't it optimized? why doesn't it support my preferred expensive proprietary OS?
< 1761498995 412342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC's hard to use, but it was shipped as a default for years. C++'s horribly hard to use, and it's considered the most macho and manly way to program.
< 1761499021 228141 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the funniest shit ive ever read
< 1761499044 747924 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i am quite sad I cannot fill out this list, as I dont actually have any languages I advocate for
< 1761499126 539362 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You're not expected to be able to fill out this list yet. Don't worry about it. Also, many folks would suggest that the checklist isn't to be taken seriously and that any language designer who uses it is hobbling themselves.
< 1761499142 64130 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761499155 694968 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know im not expected to, but I'd like to do it)
< 1761499172 138215 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(maybe imm going to fill it in as a joke lol)
< 1761499766 528494 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats a really funny checklist
> 1761499992 831896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166744&oldid=166729 5* 03Wlad 5* (+308) 10Add Wlad's introduction
< 1761501675 863334 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761501884 597187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166745&oldid=166734 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+39) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
< 1761502356 646314 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand()" hehe (from that checklist that korvo linked)
< 1761502372 266308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't think notability is a good way to define esolangs – the other way round is more obvious, there are plenty of very conventionally designed languages which aren't big or well-known enough to have a Wikipedia page (but unfortunately they're generally obscure enough that I haven't heard of most of them)
< 1761502438 630461 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's not notability as much as the degree of exploitation which society hopes to induce. An "up-and-coming" language is usually described in terms of its velocity rather than its current features.
< 1761502461 202023 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but something like Malbolge is fairly clearly an esolang, I think, because the design goal of "make the language as hard to write in as possible" is diametrically opposed to the standard goals of programming languages
< 1761502473 650785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia's merely willing to allow capitalist propaganda as primary sources. Many such cases.
< 1761502494 298373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I find it hard to see programming languages as generally being inherently capitalist – implementations, maybe
< 1761502540 91634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The diametric opposition is what, "make the language as easy to write in as possible"? There's only one language in popular use with that goal, Python. Such languages are usually pretty rare and also bad; Quorum's my usual punching bag.
< 1761502569 740179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's more that most languages value being easy to write over being difficult to write – in many cases that isn't a primary goal, but might be a tiebreak
< 1761502580 949179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tiebreaking by picking the more difficult option would be unusual
< 1761502585 877135 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, python doesn't purely do that, there are a few places where python is harder to write because of some historical compatibility thing, but it is close enough
< 1761502585 923638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if all other things are equal
< 1761502618 754486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :likewise, most languages will tiebreak by trying to copy what programmers are familiar with and what other languages have done, being different for the sake of being different is how you end up with INTERCAL
< 1761502653 802711 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: A good counterexample is C, which had design goals involving being easy for computers to parse and compile, and was ultimately steered by compilability. It competed with Fortran in that arena and won handily.
< 1761502654 141961 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, that's how you end up with Rust's syntax :-(
< 1761502662 459293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(working on C-INTERCAL was fun, especially when we found ways to be different that actually had compensating advantages)
< 1761502703 833930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you're misunderstanding me – in C, writability is not a primary goal but it is still considered desirable, it just sometimes has to be compromised on to meet other design goals
< 1761502707 277424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, making things different is a goal that you can do in games like M:tG or Factorio and can result in very enjoyable builds
< 1761502726 268240 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and sometimes you can discover builds that are different and also better when steered by this
< 1761502733 78197 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ECMAScript's another counterexample; the design goal there was to look like Java and the rush to market ate all other goals. A lot of the worst ugliness like `with` has been deprecated, but that's explicitly because E's authors decided to heavily influence it.
< 1761502756 971469 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I understand your point but I think it's straight-up wrong, sorry.
< 1761502783 706824 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not very agreeable today and I'll shut up after this. I'm just tired of the way that capitalism's bent all of our sciences.
< 1761502811 864014 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761502832 582371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: did Javascript really want to look more like Java than look like C? I think it wanted to look like C, but Java also wanted to look like C, and it's only that why they look alike. the Java got in the name for marketing, because Java was already used for in-browser client-side programming
< 1761502841 193739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess a good way to see the point is to consider why most languages are not adding politeness-checking features from INTERCAL – they choose to leave it out, even if excluding them has nothing to do with the language's design goals
< 1761502901 753426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that this is not a coincidence and there's some plausible model of language designers that explains why they are all making the same choice there
< 1761503165 791212 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the politeness checking might be one of those jokes that are only funny once
< 1761503184 480906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but why do languages have a bias towards not including unfunny jokes rather than including them?
< 1761503192 801044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and why do most esolangs.org contributors have the opposite bias?)
< 1761503314 328926 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the latter, becuase most people make esolangs alone and it's hard to judge which of your own jokes are funny
< 1761503400 134374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I think that might be starting to get close to the esolang distinction
< 1761503431 183436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fewer designers a language has, the more likely it is to be an esolang – even if a solo dev attempts to make a practical language it often ends up with esolang-like elements
< 1761503439 193539 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care too much about the esolang distinction as in which languages are esoteric, and I'm happy to document non-esoteric languages on the esowiki
< 1761503459 136191 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, maybe I care a little bit
< 1761503467 673311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: historically there was a consensus to not document BANCSTAR on the wiki because it was considered to be not esoteric enough
< 1761503474 34237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although at some point that changed
< 1761503541 698901 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've documented at least one language on the esowiki that's both clearly non-esoteric and is notable enough for en.wikipedia to hvae an article
< 1761503643 293807 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did make one compromise to the wiki being mostly about esoteric languages, which is that I kept https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX as the main language on that title, rather than switch it over or at least make it a disambig page
< 1761504154 990959 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761507662 731343 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :LiveScript's Java co-branding was a very late change...
> 1761509446 595025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166746&oldid=166713 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-4) 10
< 1761509562 389106 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1761509679 62228 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I made some additions of the programming language check list:  gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/language_checklist.txt
< 1761509792 757756 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Probably I missed some stuff)
< 1761509819 468205 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761509942 146376 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, about which programming languages are "esoteric": I seem to remember someone mentioning that PostScript is both esoteric and not esoteric; it seems to me that PostScript is also both general-purpose and domain-specific, and both text and binary.
< 1761510129 504164 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1761511074 915970 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761511271 4677 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure that there is really a single clear definition of "esoteric programming", but some of the mentions might be good points
< 1761511342 880559 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761511455 230973 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some stuff I had made which is not really intended to be esolangs nevertheless has unusual stuff, and some other people might have done for other reasons
< 1761511626 328987 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761511751 692577 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think one common characteristic is that esoteric languages are too simple (and often too weird) to be useful for mainstream programming
< 1761511786 830457 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :the don't have specification running into a hundred pages
< 1761511822 475380 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some features of Free Hero Mesh are the way that they are for compatibility with MESH:Hero (also has a single designer as far as I know), but some are my own ideas.)
< 1761511833 704091 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: That is probably also a good point
< 1761511882 599396 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :so let me ask: what is the simplest non-esoteric language?
< 1761511959 265144 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, uxn is simple but also many useful programs have been made (including text editor, picture editor, calendar, clock, card games, and other programs)
< 1761512193 525373 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those written in uxn or in some other language that compiles to uxn?
< 1761512333 424516 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of them are written directly in uxn (using the assembler).
< 1761512393 741730 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't uxntal the language?
< 1761512435 434333 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, uxntal is the assembler which is used; it is mostly just writing the instructions directly although there are a few things such as labels, like many assemblers have
< 1761512972 731898 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :toy cpus like uxn and chip-8 are somewhat in between esoteric and mainstream languages
< 1761513066 857379 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :they would have been mainstream in the hobby computer era but no longer are on modern machines
< 1761513152 208951 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :the original scheme had a modest spec at 48 pages
< 1761513315 231280 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :R3RS is even shorter at 41 pages
< 1761513375 325419 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :while the modern R7RS small edition is 84 pages
< 1761513540 442446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can imagine a rudimentary (pre-POSIX) make(1) that's practically useful and very easy to specify
< 1761513586 192344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from the opposite end, golfing languages are often considered esoteric but can be very difficult to specify
< 1761513618 231410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(TIO! classifies languages into "practical" and "recreational" rather than "esoteric" and "non-esoteric", and puts golfing languages in the recreational category, even though they are occasionally practically useful)
< 1761513672 963279 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tricks to shorten uxn programs are common even though that is (probably) not the primary use of uxn.
< 1761513739 23226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761513938 33915 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One advantage of uxn is that it is simpler and can easily be ported to many computers)
> 1761514151 303970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166747&oldid=166712 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+26) 10
< 1761514245 916427 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761514500 32183 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some tricks take advantage of circular stacks, such as the "DUP2k EOR2" trick and the "GTHrk JMPrk BRK" trick)
> 1761515518 411659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166748&oldid=166747 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-21) 10
< 1761516668 680244 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761522456 729431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166749 5* 03Jay 5* (+2) 10Created page with "gh"