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00:29:28 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168380&oldid=168378 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-29)
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00:30:51 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168381&oldid=168380 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-98)
00:36:35 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168382&oldid=168270 * PrySigneToFry * (+121)
00:41:03 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168383&oldid=168381 * Aadenboy * (+29) re-add category
00:46:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168384&oldid=168357 * Ais523 * (+683) asking for opinions on whether pages like this are appropriate for the wiki
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01:35:19 <esolangs> [[Fingerfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168385&oldid=165021 * EvilRodentOfEVil * (-2) /* Commands */
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01:38:05 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168386&oldid=168383 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-112)
01:39:49 <esolangs> [[Fingerfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168387&oldid=168385 * EvilRodentOfEVil * (-303) /* Commands */
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01:44:19 <esolangs> [[Fingerfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168388&oldid=168387 * EvilRodentOfEVil * (-43) /* Commands */
01:58:58 <esolangs> [[Tskastic/Command Table]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168389&oldid=166658 * PrySigneToFry * (+274)
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02:10:31 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168390&oldid=168386 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+6893)
02:15:53 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168391&oldid=168390 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+2338)
02:19:10 <esolangs> [[Category:Turing Complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168392 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+59) Created page with "Yes, you can create anything in these languages, like GTA6."
02:21:11 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168393&oldid=168313 * NTMDev * (-4) /* Edit a List */
02:21:49 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168394&oldid=168393 * NTMDev * (+2) /* Edit a List */
02:24:21 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168395&oldid=168391 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+18)
02:25:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Turing Complete]]": unapproved category, redundant to [[Category:Turing complete]]
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02:38:32 <esolangs> [[User:NTMDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168396&oldid=167963 * NTMDev * (+8)
02:59:41 <esolangs> [[Fingerfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168397&oldid=168388 * EvilRodentOfEVil * (+709) /* Examples */
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03:00:31 <esolangs> [[Fingerfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168398&oldid=168397 * EvilRodentOfEVil * (-4) /* 3 Character Password */
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03:12:54 <esolangs> [[Brafuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168399&oldid=165567 * PrySigneToFry * (+264)
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03:54:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mysonandadthatnosense * New user account
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04:01:59 <Guest41> Omg let's goooo, I'm accessing this from a Scratch project (technically Turbowarp)
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04:06:50 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168400&oldid=168394 * NTMDev * (+460) /* Enumeration */
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04:22:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168401&oldid=168324 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+218) /* Introductions */
04:29:23 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168402&oldid=168284 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-20) /* Semantics */
04:29:37 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168403&oldid=168402 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-178) /* Examples */
04:30:38 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168404&oldid=168403 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-20) /* Semantics */
04:34:15 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168405&oldid=168404 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+61) /* Examples */
04:49:30 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168406&oldid=168287 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-251) /* esolangs */
04:50:51 <esolangs> [[()()(())]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168407&oldid=136415 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25) /* definitions */
04:51:49 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168408&oldid=168395 * Corbin * (+6) Fix categories yet again.
04:52:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168409&oldid=168088 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-269) deleted some dumb talks I did a while ago
04:53:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168410&oldid=168409 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+446)
05:04:53 <esolangs> [[()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168411&oldid=136382 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-920) /* how it works */
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05:11:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:()NEST()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168412&oldid=168410 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+666)
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05:44:06 <zzo38> Why does X.690 says that the canonical form of a floating point number in decimal format must have a plus sign for the exponent iff the exponent is zero?
05:47:19 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168413&oldid=168345 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+497) /* Factorial operator example */ Silly me was too sleepy to complete the factorial program
05:51:46 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168414&oldid=168413 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+1) /* Factorial operator example */ operator, not literal
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06:20:34 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168415&oldid=168382 * Cycwin * (+470) /* single-time lambda runner */
06:29:46 <esolangs> [[Dynamic CE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168416 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+405) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Dynamic CE''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a more dynamic, and "usable"(to some extent) version of [[Contains everything]]. It is currently a WIP. == Description == === Builtins === Below are some Dynamic CE built in variables,
06:35:02 <esolangs> [[Distressed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168417&oldid=168232 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Computational class */
06:37:28 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168418&oldid=168334 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+65) /* Commands */
06:37:36 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168419&oldid=168418 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Tricks and tips */
06:40:19 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168420&oldid=168419 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+69) /* Commands */
06:40:56 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168421&oldid=168343 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+501) /* Languages I like */ Add Atamagaokashii
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06:44:44 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168422&oldid=168420 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-4) /* Commands */
06:49:52 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168423&oldid=168422 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-36) /* Commands */
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06:53:37 <Yayimhere> Hello. I have a question. Is the command set Increment, multiply by 10, add a cell and point to it, delete current cell, go back N commands, goto command N(only forwards), goto current cell value(may wrap around the program).
07:01:28 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168424&oldid=168415 * Ractangle * (+33)
07:01:58 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168425&oldid=168424 * Ractangle * (-11) /* External Resources */
07:34:29 <Yayimhere> Is the before mentioned command set turing complete
07:34:36 <Yayimhere> i had not realized it was incomplete
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09:35:58 <esolangs> [[Ikiwekiwow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168426&oldid=166009 * Saumus Paskevi * (+7)
09:36:47 <esolangs> [[Ikiwekiwow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168427&oldid=168426 * Saumus Paskevi * (+7)
09:37:42 <esolangs> [[Ikiwekiwow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168428&oldid=168427 * Saumus Paskevi * (-51)
09:38:34 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168429&oldid=168421 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+2592) Tier lists
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09:41:20 <esolangs> [[Ikiwekiwow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168430&oldid=168428 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Operations */ correct the number of instructions
09:41:45 <esolangs> [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168431&oldid=90799 * Saumus Paskevi * (+11) marked dead link
09:51:51 <esolangs> [[SletScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168432&oldid=168425 * I am islptng * (+29) fix typo and format
09:56:12 <sorear> moderately tempted to throw in a version of Henkin's theorem to prove that there are no surprises connected to the logical axioms
09:59:41 <sorear> as it is the logic is only developed enough to prove that 0 and 1 have the expected nature
10:35:08 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168433&oldid=168364 * C++DSUCKER * (+171)
10:39:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Samski * New user account
10:44:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168434&oldid=168401 * Samski * (+378)
10:45:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168435&oldid=168434 * Samski * (+81)
10:47:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168436&oldid=168366 * C++DSUCKER * (+244)
10:47:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168437&oldid=168436 * C++DSUCKER * (+63)
10:50:22 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168438&oldid=168433 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
10:51:19 <esolangs> [[Dynamic CE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168439&oldid=168416 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-405) Blanked the page
10:52:57 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Testing Facility]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168440&oldid=168267 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+709) Syntax highlighting
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11:11:26 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168441&oldid=168429 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+164) /* Tier List of Languages */
11:16:53 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Interpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168442&oldid=168111 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+316) /* Nope. */ Add the Atamagaokashii interpreter of Nope.
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11:25:44 <Yayimhere> Working on an extension of contains everything
11:28:21 <DOS_User_webchat> Because a rite of passage for esolangers is bf dericative apparently
11:38:43 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168443&oldid=168438 * C++DSUCKER * (+246)
11:58:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168444&oldid=167857 * PrySigneToFry * (+219)
11:59:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168445&oldid=168444 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+159)
11:59:42 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168446&oldid=168443 * C++DSUCKER * (-4)
12:03:15 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168447&oldid=166161 * None1 * (+721)
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12:08:12 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168448&oldid=168446 * C++DSUCKER * (+141)
12:08:37 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168449&oldid=168448 * C++DSUCKER * (+2)
12:15:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168450&oldid=168445 * PrySigneToFry * (+315)
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12:21:23 <esolangs> [[Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168451&oldid=168449 * C++DSUCKER * (+321)
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12:26:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168452&oldid=168450 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+383) /* ? */
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12:44:38 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168453&oldid=168414 * Hammy * (+150) /* Member/Method Access */
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13:00:27 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168454&oldid=168453 * Hammy * (+690) /* User:Esolangist */
13:01:28 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168455 * Hammy * (+28) Redirected page to [[Atamagaokashii]]
13:13:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168456&oldid=167964 * Jasper * (+53) /* Useful functions made using INTERCAL's unary / binary operators */
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13:23:38 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168457&oldid=168454 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+144) /* Extensions */ This
13:32:35 <int-e> > logBase 2 3 * 23
13:40:49 <esolangs> [[Just a bit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168458&oldid=168271 * Esolangist alt * (+169)
13:50:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168459&oldid=168384 * Int-e * (+363) I think either delete them or mark pages like this with a big "AI slop" banner...
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14:05:34 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168460 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+21282) Created page with "{{proglang | name = Abyssal-8 | year = 2025 | designer = Sawyer Macia | file extension = .aby8 | paradigm = Esoteric language deterministic, massively obfuscated, self-modifying VM | influences = Malbolge, Brainfuck (conceptual), cryptographic permutations }}
14:10:45 <int-e> Oh we're also inventing nonexistant templates? "Template:Proglang"
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14:42:32 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168461&oldid=168408 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-281)
14:59:36 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168462 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+6020) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Abyssal-7 |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:YourUsernameHere]] <!-- Replace with your esolangs username --> |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |influence=[[Abyssal-8]], [[Abyssal-9]], [[Malbolge]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing
15:04:21 <int-e> Hmm I can feel a wiki user ban coming.
15:07:48 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168463&oldid=168400 * NTMDev * (+89) /* Floor, Ceiling */
15:08:23 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168464&oldid=168463 * NTMDev * (+16) /* LogicalOperation */
15:09:58 <int-e> (Aside from these pages being pure slop, they haven't reacted on their talk page either.)
15:13:34 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168465&oldid=168464 * NTMDev * (-31) /* Floor, Ceiling */
15:14:03 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168466&oldid=168465 * NTMDev * (+90) /* Advanced Math Operations */
15:29:34 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168467&oldid=168466 * NTMDev * (+474) /* Square root, Logarithm */
15:42:08 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168468&oldid=168467 * NTMDev * (+77) /* Square root, Logarithm */
15:44:12 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168469&oldid=168468 * NTMDev * (+306) /* Trig Functions */
15:49:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Contains everything]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168470&oldid=168437 * Corbin * (+911)
15:51:53 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168471&oldid=168461 * Corbin * (+2) Fix categories.
15:52:23 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168472&oldid=168460 * Corbin * (+6) Fix categories. This was clearly generated.
15:52:52 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168473&oldid=168462 * Corbin * (+7) Fix categories. This was clearly generated.
15:57:46 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168474&oldid=168469 * NTMDev * (+197) /* Gcd, Lcm */
15:58:52 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168475&oldid=168474 * NTMDev * (+125) /* Mod, MathConstants */
15:58:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Mysonandadthatnosense * uploaded "[[File:Hello World!.png]]"
16:03:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sawyer.go0923]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168477&oldid=168312 * Corbin * (+1556) /* Tagging & Slop */ new section
16:06:46 <esolangs> [[I RAGED ON CSHARP SO HARD I BROKE MY FUCKING PC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168478&oldid=168216 * Corbin * (+6) Fix categories. This smells generated.
16:07:08 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168479&oldid=168217 * Corbin * (+6) Fix categories. This smells generated.
16:07:22 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168480&oldid=168219 * Corbin * (+6) Fix categories. This smells generated.
16:08:36 <esolangs> [[GTA6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168481&oldid=168316 * Corbin * (+30) Fix categories. This smells generated. The repeated Gs put the model into a pseudo-stationary distribution and it forgot which language it was supposed to speak when it came back out.
16:09:23 <korvo> Okay, I think I've tagged all of it.
16:14:51 <esolangs> [[Classic?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168482&oldid=168239 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3) /* Semantics */
16:21:35 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168483 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+1416) Uhh M@trix!
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16:28:12 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168484&oldid=168483 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+1) /* M@trix */
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16:29:57 <esolangs> [[Classic?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168485&oldid=168482 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Semantics */
16:34:46 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168486&oldid=168484 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+153) /* External Links */
16:35:38 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168487&oldid=168486 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+0) /* M@trix */
16:37:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Mysonandadthatnosense]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168488 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+169) Created page with "Hi guys! Im the guy who made [[M@trix]] :D--~~~~"
16:38:15 <esolangs> [[User:Samski]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168489 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+3) Created page with "uhm"
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16:41:00 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168490&oldid=168487 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+79) /* M@trix */
16:42:05 <esolangs> [[Atamagaokashii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168491&oldid=168457 * Esolangist alt * (+20) Esolangist alt
16:53:07 <ais523> I don't want to ban Sawyer.go0923 without giving them more of a chance to respond to the warnings, but I'm also thinking that the behaviour is getting increasingly banworthy
16:54:28 <ais523> really I or someone else needs to work on a topicality policy which gives something to point to as a reason to delete this (which I don't think should be "was created by AI" unless there were copyright concerns, but rather "a page should document a language, you can't just write something that looks like language documentation unless there is an actual language to document"
16:55:17 <ais523> the AI that's generating the pages seems to have fallen into the common issue of mixing up actual useful output and plans for the future / todo lists (which, admittedly, I sometimes do myself on a smaller scale, but not to that extent)
16:57:04 <ais523> to clarify: I think "ask an AI for ideas, try to create a language around the ideas it comes up with, document the language" is clearly acceptable even if I'm not particularly a fan of the process; but "ask an AI for language documentation and post it" is not acceptable because at no point has the language actually been created
16:58:36 <korvo> ais523: Understood. I will propose some policy wording in a bit. I hope I didn't overstep in my warning; I wanted them to understand *why* their behavior is an issue and *how* to improve.
16:59:22 <ais523> it's a wiki, warning people is something that anyone can do (although if the warnings are in bad faith it would be a problem, and if they're in good faith but very off the mark it would need correction)
16:59:33 <korvo> "articles should document languages" seems like a good maxim for sure.
16:59:51 <ais523> (or document something else, if the article is not intended to be about a language)
17:00:44 <ais523> I am generally extremely forgiving as moderators go (which might have caused problems in the past) – this incident is annoying even me, so it must be even worse for everyone else
17:02:15 <int-e> ais523: Yeah technically AI isn't the issue. Nor, in a way, is slop; we have plenty of barely specified language stubs... not great, but easy to sort out at a glance. The combination though... AI enables slop that looks substantial, produced at a prodigious rate.
17:03:02 <ais523> with human-produced slop there's generally *a* language idea, just the human may not fully understand it and may have trouble articulating it properly
17:03:12 <ais523> in my case, I normally just don't post those languages, but some people do
17:03:31 <ais523> (and when I do post languages that I haven't fully thought through they are often not very interesting)
17:03:43 <avih> i don't think it matters much whether it's ai or not, though it's much more likely with ai, but without knowing how to formulate it, i think it's not a place for "silly stupid half baked stuff with zero interesting value"
17:04:45 <avih> (all subjective obviously, hence "not sure how to formulate it")
17:04:47 <ais523> I can potentially see going as far as "a page must contain either an interpreter, sufficient information that it would be possible for someone else to create an interpreter, or a link to a page containing one of these things" although that would be a really major change and I wouldn't want to make it without extensive discussion
17:05:01 <ais523> and it'd need to be adapted a bit for hypothetical languages
17:05:06 <ais523> err, for uncomputable languages
17:05:06 <korvo> I'm just not a fan of vanity. I think this this community is much more lenient than e.g. nLab, where "remove yourself" is a community value, but in general I think that wikis should not just be guestbooks where people write grand signatures.
17:05:54 <ais523> something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme would be sufficiently well-specified to implement if not for the fact that it's theoretically impossible
17:06:02 <ais523> but you can imagine writing an implementation in another uncomputable language
17:06:48 <ais523> well, except that it doesn't specify syntax for the transfinite ordinales
17:06:49 <korvo> [[Sammy]] would be my example of an edge case. It's an interesting open research question whether a Turing machine can simulate it!
17:07:00 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sammy
17:07:27 <ais523> korvo: ooh, unknown between TC and uncomputable? I don't see that very often
17:07:38 <int-e> This is intangible, but Banana Scheme is clean: It adds just enough to Scheme to embody the idea of having access to a tower of halting oracles.
17:09:02 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. The main issue is that it's not known how to compute Kan extensions in Cat other than via diagram chasing. I think that there might be an algebraic way to simulate it, so that we could compute an approximation; but the details were difficult to work out and I gave up after a week.
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17:10:20 <avih> int-e: ais523: just wanted to put it out there. thanks again for the discussion and ideas. i only ended up using ais523's "if (0 or near enough) BODY" code https://gist.github.com/avih/3c7733e251e7edaf161f7f71c840ce69
17:10:56 <ais523> avih: I think you have int-e's name backwards
17:10:59 <int-e> . o O ( who's e-int )
17:11:29 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168492&oldid=168319 * Aadenboy * (+10) /* Completeness */ I think it'd be obvious to say that Iterate without any way to reset counters is not Turing-completeironically, it would probably be equivalent to [[ITERATE]] instead
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17:14:11 <avih> i wanted to find a way to document it in really small chunks without having to use a debugger to see how it looks. i think it ended up ok
17:16:42 <avih> i'm not entirely convinced my "while" construct is minimal, because the condition part has to be duplicated and my gut feeling is that it might be possible to use only once, but so far i didn't find out how
17:17:30 <avih> (i'm sure it can be minimized with tailored code, but i'm more interested in generally applicable constructs)
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17:18:58 <avih> (that refers to the first while. obviously "while (not 0)" is fine)
17:20:07 <int-e> avih: maybe something like +[ -> COND [-<+> ...]<]
17:20:32 <int-e> (instead of COND [- ... COND])
17:20:51 <avih> (digesting. also brb)
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17:21:08 <int-e> (I have not checked whether that's nciely applicable to the actual code)
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17:24:13 <avih> yeah, no worries. i will :) but general constructs are useful even if not directly applicable in this case.
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17:31:49 <korvo> DOS_User_webchat: Folks don't have to make a BF derivative to contribute to the Brainfuck story. They could also write an interpreter, write a notable or interesting program, demonstrate a new compilation technique, etc.
17:32:21 <korvo> I want to avoid folks thinking that community membership involves tagging a specific graffiti wall with a signature.
17:32:29 <korvo> DOS_User_webchat: Ah, okay. No worries.
17:37:16 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168493&oldid=168471 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+39)
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17:42:56 <avih> int-e: so COND sets the curr cell to exactly 0/1, and body is "..." ? why the very 1st "+" ? does it assume that it's never -1?
17:44:09 <int-e> avih: that's supposed to be on a temporary
17:44:35 <avih> so the assumption is that it starts on a temp cell which is 0?
17:45:53 <int-e> the idea is that instead of duplicating COND, have the outer loop return to before COND whenever the conditions was true
17:46:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sawyer.go0923]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168494&oldid=168477 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+266) Reply
17:46:10 <int-e> which is using a separate condition that is easier to manage
17:49:12 <avih> int-e: yeah, i get the idea, just not yet whether it's applicable. so the startup state expects to be on the 1st of two consecutive tmp cells, where the 1st is 0 and the 2nd is cond which is exactly 1 or 0, yes?
17:51:15 <avih> well, no. COND represents code to generate 1/0 for this iteration, right?
17:51:34 <int-e> COND is the thing that you duplicated, more or less
17:52:05 <int-e> (with all these code templates, the exact number and direction of < and > may need adjustments)
17:52:35 <avih> sure, but this is specific example, so i'm applying it to its own requirement
17:52:51 <avih> (i..e your example uses specific places)
17:53:02 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168495&oldid=168473 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-48)
17:53:02 <int-e> Right, but what I wrote didn't take your constraints into account, so you're on your own.
17:53:23 <avih> mine doesn't matter. i can apply it once i get it
17:54:09 <avih> (if applicable, my main concern is that it's an unbalanced loop, so need to ensure the bookkeeping happens correctly, but i _think_ it should be ok)
17:54:57 <avih> (because the cleanup happens right after it's used, before BODY)
17:55:46 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168496&oldid=168472 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-437)
17:56:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sawyer.go0923]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168497&oldid=168494 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+6)
17:58:28 <avih> int-e: i think i get it. the 1st tmp cell is used both to "get in" unconditionally initially, and also to loop unconditionally, where on each iteration cond is the actual decider about whether body should be executed, yes?
17:59:16 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168498&oldid=168490 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+713)
17:59:29 <avih> and if COND is false, then the body loop is not entered and the outer look exits right away
18:00:29 <avih> i _think_ it should be applicable, but not entirely sue yet. mainly due to the unbalanced nature
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18:10:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168499&oldid=167764 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+188) /* Thoughts on burn */
18:12:23 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168500&oldid=168175 * Aadenboy * (+590) extra logic
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18:17:40 <korvo> Well, they're still using chatbots to write their replies, but at least they replied.
18:18:43 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168501&oldid=168498 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (+47) /* External Resources */
18:19:35 <esolangs> [[M@trix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168502&oldid=168501 * Mysonandadthatnosense * (-144) /* M@trix */
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18:38:46 <avih> int-e: that's your suggestion in a bit more formal notation, yes?
18:38:48 <avih> (start @base) tmp1+[- (tmp2=COND) tmp2[- tmp1+ base BODY tmp2] tmp1]
18:40:25 <avih> and what i'm thinking about is what happens when BODY inherently moves head, as in unbalanced.
18:40:28 <int-e> avih: you're using names to indicate movement, I guess; in that case, yes
18:40:56 <avih> the name X means "move to X", and it uses the names base, tmp1, tmp2
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18:43:15 <avih> i'm also wondering whether tmp2 can reuse the tmp1 cell, and end up requiring only 1 tmp
18:44:11 <int-e> avih: well you need a known-0 place to exit the inner loop
18:44:23 <int-e> "loop"; it's more of a conditional branch
18:44:53 <avih> basically, the inner loop must be an "if", yes?
18:45:12 <esolangs> [[User:Sawyer.go0923]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168503 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1) Created page with "a"
18:46:31 <avih> then, if tmp1 is reused, then it could end in "BODY tmp1[-]] +]" while reusing tmp1?
18:48:14 <int-e> avih: but a non-zero tmp1 is how the outer loop knows to continue
18:48:23 <avih> as in: (start @base) tmp+[- (tmp=COND) tmp[- base BODY tmp[-]] +]
18:49:07 <avih> there's redundancy there of the tmp[- and the [-]
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18:49:40 <int-e> it the end of the inner loop, one cell is known to be 0 (because the loop exits) and another cell is supposed to track whether to continue or not; that's two cells used for flow control at that point.
18:50:04 <avih> (the "no" was for my suggestion)
18:51:24 <avih> yeah, got it :)
18:51:40 <int-e> you got "at", eh...
18:52:16 <avih> you were correcting your "it the end of the inner loop" yes?
18:53:50 <avih> anyway, yeah, when COND is true it should set tmp1 to re-enter the loop, and also use something to ensure exit of the inner loop. so two tmps indeed.
18:54:29 <avih> re-enter the outer* loop
18:56:25 <int-e> but you can use the two tmps for other purposes in `BODY` and also in `COND`, as long as you reset them properly
18:58:36 <avih> i think that in my case where BODY moves head, it should set tmp1+ after body rather than before, which would ensure entrance at the new position, but with a non-moving BODY the tmp1+ can be either before or after BODY
19:01:12 <avih> re reuse, specifically COND can reuse tmp1 as long as it restores it to 0 before entering the inner loop, and same for BODY
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19:02:23 <avih> oh, you mentioned reuse in COND too. i stopped reading at "BODY" :)
19:08:10 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168504&oldid=168493 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+364)
19:08:32 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168505&oldid=168504 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-62)
19:08:47 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168506&oldid=168505 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-69)
19:12:08 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168507&oldid=168506 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-39)
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19:29:43 <b_jonas> ais523: you know how this community is, if you set an inclusion policy for the wiki, I'll both find bad articles to get rid of and try to find loopholes for how the policy implies we should get rid of good articles.
19:30:08 <ais523> b_jonas: what are you intending to do with the loopholes if you find them? :-D
19:30:20 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
19:30:31 <ais523> fungot: we should get a team of Agorans to go over our new policy and find all the loopholes
19:30:31 <fungot> ais523: there shall be retired from that gambler's hand. for each contest that awarded
19:33:50 <b_jonas> ais523: presumably use them to convince you (as in the wiki admins collectively) to change the policy, but possibly only after I use the policy to get rid of some bad articles
19:35:58 <korvo> Ah, how The Man With No Name did it. Or Mad Max, or Aloy. Walk into town, use overwhelming force to topple local despot, insist that overwhelming force is dangerous and should be retired, walk out of town.
19:37:01 <b_jonas> if the policy were that the page should link to an interpreter or there should be enough information to create one then I'd ask how we apply that to efghij or BancStar
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19:42:43 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168508&oldid=167675 * Esolangist alt * (+123) Esolangist alt
19:43:03 <b_jonas> if necessary I might even propose articles that don't exist yet and should exist but couldn't with the policy
19:43:29 <korvo> avih: Not a bad thing, just a pattern. (I love speedrunning Horizon, BTW. I should do that more often.)
19:44:03 <avih> yeah. good pattern, and i get why b_jonas suggested it. fun nevertheless :)
19:44:45 <avih> it comes down to what i suggested just seemingly more formally: apply subjective judgment...
19:45:28 <avih> but i liked your examples :)
19:46:52 <avih> basically what everyone does in politics and also elsewhere: define rules which enforce the ruller's subjective point of view. the rest of us can only hope the ruller has fair point of view.
19:49:30 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168509&oldid=168507 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-233)
19:50:34 <avih> (i like to speedrun farcry 3)
19:50:40 <avih> (also been a while)
19:51:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I think efghij has sufficient *information* to write an interpreter, but actually writing the interpreter would be difficult
19:51:42 <avih> (not the actual main game. only reset the outputs and win all of them, which takes me just less than an hour)
19:52:10 <korvo> That's rad. All Outposts sounds like it should be a category.
19:52:12 <ais523> also, in the early days of the wiki, BANCStar was considered offtopic
19:52:37 <ais523> it is, after all, basically just a bytecode format
19:53:09 <avih> korvo: it might be. was never interested in the "scene". i just find it fun and relaxing.
19:53:14 <avih> and challenging :)
19:53:19 <ais523> is x86-64 machine code an esolang? it's certainly weird enough
19:55:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think for including in the wiki, we needn't judge whether a language is esoteric enough, we can keep articles about non-esoteric languages too. but obviously I'm biased, I like to write those kinds of articles.
19:55:21 <korvo> TIL about BANCStar. Almost sounds like a joke. But I know MUMPS is real and this is only slightly more cursed.
19:55:33 <b_jonas> it's enough if the article says something that's of interest to the esoteric language community in general
19:55:41 <zzo38> I would say probably not, but if you have something remarkable to write about it which would be suitable for esolangs, write it anyways.
19:55:50 <ais523> I've actually never looked at MUMPS in detail, even though it's apparently a major enough language that I *should* know it
19:57:21 <b_jonas> korvo: it's hard to be sure if BancSTAR was real or a very elaborate joke. there seems to be more apparently original artifacts about it than for Kvikkalkul, but the person who tried to get a copy of the interpreter vanished. maybe the floppies were just cursed, wouldn't be strange, but maybe they vanished because there's no interpreter and they didn't want to admit that
19:58:08 <korvo> WP's got some examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS#Features It is not bad when written out longhand, but it supports so many one-character tricks for abbreviating.
20:00:35 <zzo38> BANCSTAR seems legitimate to me (for a few reasons including examining existing parts of programs, including the small part that was originally published with no explanation; I think (if I remember correctly) that that small piece of code was asking a yes/no question), but of course I cannot know for sure.
20:00:58 <ais523> BANCStar is the sort of thing that, if fake, would only have been generated by AI
20:01:11 <ais523> nobody puts in the effort to make that much legitimate-looking content by hand
20:01:28 <ais523> but it's old enough that being an AI fabrication is unlikely
20:02:25 <ais523> also, as more details about it were discovered over time, it appeared to become more rather than less self-consistent, which is rare with fabrications
20:02:31 <zzo38> Considering my analysis of https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html as well as how old it is (like you mention), I think it is not generated by AI (unless the AI was specifically designed for this purpose, which seems unlikely)
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20:09:39 <ais523> hmm, so in MUMPS, global variables are *truly* global – they can be read from other programs, or from a later invocation of the same program
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20:10:10 <ais523> and Wikipedia suggests this is the etymology of the modern "global variable" concept which is more limited
20:12:26 <zzo38> I think that is also true in TI-92, although in TI-92 you can separate global variables into multiple areas.
20:12:51 <avih> zzo38: without analyzing the actual listing, the story sounds (entirely twisted but) legitimate to me too.
20:13:52 <ais523> BANCStar likely arose by starting with a simple "draw this text field at this location with a label at that location" form displayer, and features being gradually retrofitted onto it over time
20:14:22 <avih> yeah, some kind of piggyback evolution
20:14:26 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that might be what it was.
20:15:43 <ais523> in x86-64 machine code, most commands are 32 bits by default, you prefix with 0x48 to make them 64 bits, with 0x66 to make them 16 bits, and add 1 to the opcode to make them 8 bits
20:16:18 <ais523> which is oddly asymmetrical and somewhat wasteful because 8 and 32 are not the most common widths, but it makes more sense when you consider its history as having grown from a machine code where there were only two relevant bitwidths
20:16:19 <avih> but i imagine it should be relatively simply to write a compiler for it which allows comments and indentations etc
20:17:12 <avih> it would be batshit crazy imo that the "machine code" was the actual source
20:17:24 <ais523> well, it wasn't, to start with
20:17:29 <ais523> but apparently the source language wasn't very powerful
20:17:40 <ais523> so people started coding in the machine code directly
20:17:45 <ais523> (for BANCStar, that is)
20:18:26 <avih> yeah, but then the machine code became actual source. i meant it should be relatively simple to improve the higher level language which compiles to the same machine
20:19:26 <avih> even if just a sed script which replaces "if" "goto" etc with the respective numbers, and allow indentation and comments
20:19:28 <ais523> but it would have been very unlikely to be open source, so you would have had to persuade its original authors to improve it (or give you access) in order to do so lehally
20:19:48 <ais523> I get the impression that the higher-level language didn't use traditional textual source code but was instead some sort of visual editor
20:20:22 <zzo38> It seems that someone did write a invent a higher level language (called BANCNova), although it seems that the original implementation was a visual editor like ais523 says
20:20:25 <avih> the way it's described at that page, it's simple enough that downsteram devs could do that on their own
20:20:35 <avih> i would do that if i had to target this machine
20:21:14 <ais523> ah, just write an entirely unrelated language that compiles into BANCStar, that makes more sense
20:21:41 <avih> not entirely. even directly, but at least be manageable
20:22:13 <avih> as i said, even some tiny sed thingy
20:23:31 <avih> remove all whitespaces, remove all lines which begin with '#' translate if/goto/whatever to the numbers, etc
20:24:28 <b_jonas> ais523: what would happen if there was an interpreter, but it disappeared from the internet since and it's hard to find a copy? what if there is an interpreter but you have to pay money for a license?
20:25:11 <ais523> b_jonas: fwiw I thought the interpreter policy would probably be a bad idea but also thought it's a good thought experiment
20:25:26 <korvo> avih: https://github.com/vijithassar/lit might be inspiring. In Monte, files with .md extensions are preprocessed with a lit-like pass, so that one can have .mt.md literate source or .asdl.md literate ASTs.
20:25:36 <ais523> (before correcting it, I typoed "probably" as "prnobbly" – that's an extreme enough typo to possibly make the next Befunge)
20:26:40 <korvo> I suppose that the original inspiration https://gist.github.com/trauber/4955706 is more ontopic for this channel.
20:27:12 <b_jonas> an interesting case is https://esolangs.org/wiki/SKOAL . it's not a language, but I don't think that's the relevant problem here. the problem is that to recreate it, you either have to find an existing copy, presumably used, and dump its ROM, or the harder version is to reverse engineer the ROM of the calculator and implement it yourself.
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20:29:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess SKOAL is easy enough to imagine and implement as a (not actually a language) *family* but the data needed to produce that specific board isn't and shouldn't be available
20:29:48 <ais523> this reminds me of when people try to create esolangs with a command saying "prints this text: really long text" as a method of trying to make the text ontopic so that it can be posted on the wiki
20:30:13 <ais523> I don't think that's legitimate either, the language should be parameterized on the text and the text should be offsite if anywhere
20:30:34 <avih> korvo: was not familiar with literate programming, but i only glimpsed at the wikipedia page, and it's not obvious to me how it's different from a source code file which is interleaved with extensive chunks of comments
20:31:17 <ais523> or to use a more legitimate example, in Jelly, there's a command that parses a sequence of bytes as token numbers, and outputs a string formed by concatenating the tokens
20:31:18 <avih> languages typically already have facilities to separate actual source from free text - comments
20:31:25 <ais523> but the map from token numbers to tokens is just a really big hardcoded map
20:31:28 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Beecode doesn't even print a text that's releavnt
20:31:57 <avih> (but that being a knuth thing, i'm sure it has more substance than my initial impression)
20:31:59 <ais523> it doesn't seem right (and would be copyright infringing) to post the entire hardcoded map on the wiki, so it makes more sense to link to it
20:33:10 <ais523> avih: so my understanding of literate programming is that it is a combination of a) a programming language in which comments can be made particularly easy to read compared to the executed source code, and b) a programming style in which the program is ordered such that you can get an understanding of how it works by reading the comments and source in order from top to bottom
20:33:31 <ais523> but b) doesn't really show up in the languages because it isn't enforced, and a) is an almost trivial matter of syntax
20:34:18 <b_jonas> avih: oh yeah, good thing you mention it, https://esolangs.org/wiki/PL/MIX is one where we expect we'll never have enough information to create an interpreter
20:35:58 <avih> ais523: i think both can be applied in most (normal) languages?
20:36:48 <ais523> avih: yes, although it mostly depends on how awkward the comment syntax is
20:36:48 <avih> each language caters to a different sensibility of "readability", but overall it's just syntax, which one ultimately has to master in order to follow the code.
20:37:01 <ais523> to do it in C, you can imagine */…/* as being an "anticomment" symbol
20:37:09 <ais523> this works in most languages with C-style comments
20:37:13 <b_jonas> unless it's high level enough that it's the same language as PL/MMIX, which will be defined in TAOCP volume 5, as in something like C with implementation-defined word size
20:37:33 <b_jonas> but it has MIX in its name so that doesn't sound likely
20:37:43 <ais523> b_jonas: doesn't C also have implementation-defined word size?
20:38:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I'm giving C as an example for high-level language
20:38:20 <ais523> oh, I see, you're using C as an example rather than the word size as an exception
20:38:35 <ais523> this is an ambiguity in English that I don't think I've consciously noticed before
20:38:58 <avih> (i'll read a bit more about lit programming later, because i'm guessing it should have some substance other than style)
20:39:22 <ais523> it's a precedence ambiguity, "(something like C) with implementation-defined word size" (the intended meaning) versus "something like (C with implementation-defined word size)" (how I interpreted it)
20:40:46 <ais523> b_jonas: aww, now I'm disappointed that MMIX wasn't created in 2009, it seems like the sort of pun that programmers like Knuth would enjoy
20:41:28 <b_jonas> ais523: MMIX was created in 2009 for some value of created. it took multiple years to create.
20:43:02 <b_jonas> ok no, 2004 is probably the most relevant year when it was released
20:43:45 <b_jonas> so probably not created in 2009
20:51:20 <avih> korvo: that lit inspiration awk thingy could also be written as (untested): awk '/^```/{x=!x;next}; x'
20:53:10 <korvo> avih: The original literate-programming idea included a *tangling* phase that allows for programs to be written in arbitrary order. One tangling could lead to an executable version of the program and another tangling could produce a book; the book's chapters don't have to correspond to text sections in the executable.
20:53:38 <korvo> But yeah, if you've seen modules and docstrings then literate programming might seem like a dated concept.
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20:54:08 <avih> yeah, what i thought as well
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20:57:23 <korvo> avih: Here's a motivating example: https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/mast/lib/prom.mt.md This is a Prometheus metrics server. The literate level contains two levels of quotation; the upper level is block-quoting hunks of the Prometheus upstream guide for server authors. The overall effect is that one can read three different levels of quotation all at the same time.
20:57:31 <ais523> korvo: very few languages have a reason to write in order nowadays, apart from languages where declaration needs to precede use
20:58:50 <korvo> ais523: Or inside expressions, e.g. ordering of pattern-matching clauses.
20:59:13 <ais523> korvo: hmm, now I'm imagining a pattern match split up all over the program
20:59:52 <ais523> in a way, that's what implementing an interface does (with the Java-ish OO meaning of "interface")
21:00:15 <korvo> Oh, no, Thue's explicitly non-deterministic in ordering.
21:00:44 <ais523> there is some debate about what sort of nondeterminism is used
21:00:57 <ais523> I consider it to be angelic nondeterminism, like is used in, e.g., context-free grammars
21:01:00 <ais523> but some people think it's randomization
21:03:11 <ais523> there are weirder versions of nondeterminism too, e.g. Prolog attempts to simulate angelic nondeterminism but it has a defined evaluation order and ways to screw with the evaluation from inside
21:03:20 <ais523> meaning that the purity breaks down somewhat
21:03:58 <ais523> (that said, Prolog's evaluation order is fun to think about in an esoteric sort of way)
21:05:10 <ais523> I wonder whether ! started out as an optimisation primitive that was meant to be used only when it wouldn't change the semantics of the program and then got weirder over time as people started exploiting the undefined cases, or whether the weirdness was intended from the start
21:05:43 <ais523> (the optimisation-only cuts are apparently called "green cuts" by Prolog programmers, the ones that have an effect on control flow are "red cuts")
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21:13:07 <esolangs> [[Iterate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168511&oldid=168492 * Aadenboy * (+151) /* Syntax */ note compiler
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23:01:38 <avih> int-e: it works, it's shorter (71 -> 60), but not sure how i feel about it. what do you think? https://0.vern.cc/S.txt
23:02:24 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168523&oldid=168522 * NTMDev * (+37)
23:02:44 <int-e> avih: looks fine to me
23:02:49 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168524&oldid=168523 * NTMDev * (-14)
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23:04:33 <avih> it does use COND once, and it can be applied generically, and it's not even meaningfully slower, so that's definitely a plus, but... dunno... feels... yet even more complex. not in a bad way, but still...
23:05:07 <avih> (but maybe that's just life with bf code...)
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23:05:47 <avih> (it took me a while to actually get it to work...)
23:10:05 <avih> the fact that COND is (==1) and the way it's constructed, it also means "-1" has to appear twice and same for "+1", so this doesn't help construction or readability either...
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23:18:26 <int-e> avih: not duplicating the conditional code that can be arbitrarily complex sounds like a win to me
23:19:10 <avih> it definitely is, it's the cost i'm not sure how i feel about
23:20:44 <avih> no complaint about your suggestion at all. i quite like it. and yet the result is still way more complex than i'd hoped for "while (==1) {+9; >>>}"
23:22:40 <avih> but again, this is only gut feeling. i don't have enough experience in bf to tell whether this should really be much smaller
23:23:09 <ais523> some short BF programs (like hello worlds) have been produced by computer search and they don't look much like human-written programs at all
23:23:39 <ais523> so even if the program could be much smaller by using some obscure technique, it's unlikely that a human would be able to figure it out
23:23:41 <avih> i know, that's the kind of code which int-e produces manually :)
23:24:30 <avih> i know. not looking for obscure stuff which just fits this specific task.
23:25:16 <avih> but as a general thing for what i consider a relatively simple task, i would have expected less code. it's entirely possible my expectations are wrong in bf.
23:26:06 <ais523> the way I think about it is that BF has commonly seen groups of commands that might act much like a single command in a higher-level language
23:26:16 <ais523> but they generally take up much more space, so the program gets longer
23:26:51 <avih> hmm it does appear that way, yeah
23:42:54 <avih> i think i might look at that bfmacro thing, to check what it produces for this kind of task. though the more general the language is (i presume the macros - i didn't really look into it so far), the more overhead the resulting code would have. still, would be interesting to see what it produces here.
23:44:14 <int-e> I believe avih wants to strike a balance between preserving high-level structure and size, which is hard and inherently subjective.
23:45:08 <avih> because in my head, i think i try to do what bfmacro does. i.e. i'm hoping not to treat mini task as its own kind of puzzle to solve. that feels seriously unrealistic to use that approach, except when minimum size counts above everything else.
23:45:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168528&oldid=168499 * Ais523 * (+640) /* Thoughts on burn */ thoughts on thoughts on Burn
23:45:47 <avih> int-e: why do you think it's subjective?
23:46:34 <int-e> because you can trade size for clarity so it's a matter of which one you value more
23:47:02 <avih> sure, what matters more is subjective. on that i agree.
23:47:38 <avih> (and did agree before too - it's a viable approach if size carries more weight than other things)
23:51:23 <avih> i'm also looking at it from a point of view of practically using bf to write something meaningful. as in, the general challenge to to form the solution approach, and typically the implementation is the relatively easy part if the approach is solid. but here it seems that the implementation itself is its own challenge too.
23:51:52 <avih> is* to form the approach
23:52:55 <avih> (i don't actually intend to write meaningful bf programs, but it's still the perspective i use even with simple things)
23:53:07 <ais523> unoptimising BF interpreters are normally really easy and boring unless you write them in an esolang, optimising BF interpreters is a really itneresting challenge though
23:53:19 <ais523> at least if you take the optimisations far enough
23:54:59 <avih> yeah. mine only does balanced loops so far. that's relatively trivial, but it already beats almost all the "optimizing" interpreters out there, with the exceptions of bffsree in some cases, and, more meaningfully, https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck
23:55:49 <avih> the next step in optimizing definitely involves graphs or some other higher level view at dependencies.
23:56:27 <ais523> I think if you go far enough your optimiser starts thinking in terms of counters and stacks, rather than the BF tape
23:56:40 <avih> especially that link above is really amazing. not perfect, but really damn good. i judge by the c code it produces, which really handles multiple levels of nesting
23:57:10 <ais523> there's also ratiofall, my interpreter for The Waterfall Model, which is an interpreter for a counter machine but the problem of optimising that is basically equivalent to the problem of optimising balanced bignum BF
23:57:24 <avih> and of course tracking available knowledge at any point in time is a must as well
23:57:28 <ais523> (but the bignum is important, some of the optimisations don't really make sense except on programs that are using bignums to store data)
23:57:35 <avih> s/tracking/maintaining/
23:58:52 <avih> hmm.. i never considered bignum bf. i don't have a sense of where it differs from normal (wrapping cells) bf
23:59:14 <avih> (i get the diff, but not the sense of where it affects optimizations)