> 1772237381 142988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177118&oldid=177045 5* 03InLuaIKnow 5* (+77) 10
> 1772238472 70065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177119&oldid=177117 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+1) 10/* Syntax */
> 1772239209 870104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177120&oldid=177119 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+76) 10/* Syntax */
< 1772239916 38455 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-38-137.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1772243494 764319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177121&oldid=177120 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+150) 10
> 1772243741 415655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177122&oldid=177121 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+9) 10
> 1772244049 473776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bbtos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177123&oldid=175432 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+169) 10>|<>|< interpreter
> 1772245186 175105 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177124&oldid=177063 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+257) 10/* Bitwise Statements List */
> 1772245220 475433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177125&oldid=177124 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-3) 10/* Bitwise Statements List */
> 1772245435 794187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177126&oldid=177125 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+22) 10/* Syntax */
> 1772245473 288937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177127&oldid=177126 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-13) 10/* type */
> 1772245483 134283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177128&oldid=177127 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-1) 10/* type */
> 1772245886 756174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177129&oldid=177128 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+696) 10/* operator */
> 1772245943 987855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177130&oldid=177129 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+65) 10/* process */
> 1772246010 789400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177131&oldid=177130 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+228) 10/* eval */
> 1772246039 465507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177132&oldid=177131 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+64) 10/* process */
> 1772251125 402060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177133&oldid=175413 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (-94) 10
> 1772251736 424196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater6714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177134&oldid=177099 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+90) 10
> 1772252231 726665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater6714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177135&oldid=177134 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+308) 10
> 1772252244 162484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater6714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177136&oldid=177135 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-17) 10/* uwu nyaaa :3 rawr */
< 1772252367 285867 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1772252379 562129 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
> 1772253681 557293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177137&oldid=177003 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+263) 10
> 1772253849 622748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177138&oldid=177137 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+90) 10/* things I don't like */
> 1772256141 367698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Text14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177139&oldid=176956 5* 03InLuaIKnow 5* (+54) 10
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> 1772256502 280051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Text14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177140&oldid=177139 5* 03InLuaIKnow 5* (+1) 10
< 1772257333 144463 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1772258967 637296 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1772258989 841734 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit!
< 1772258989 928607 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1772259023 216904 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1772259196 835289 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1772259258 796771 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :MPCitH is when you read a book
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> 1772262484 303576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177141&oldid=177122 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10. seems to function exactly as a string!
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< 1772265978 530716 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1772266091 156358 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1772266245 744115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ActionLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177142&oldid=176967 5* 03None1 5* (+189) 10Add some examples
> 1772266312 691943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ActionLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177143&oldid=177142 5* 03None1 5* (-4) 10/* Truth Machine */
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< 1772270582 676895 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1772271764 592458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177144&oldid=176566 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-67) 10
> 1772271807 839510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NO WAY? NO WAY!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177145&oldid=176183 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (-8) 10/* Computational class */
> 1772272179 620692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177146&oldid=177073 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+184) 10
< 1772274473 152297 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:303f:bf6:f20e:2c5e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1772275419 991988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ActionLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177147&oldid=177143 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+2520) 10/* Truth Machine */
> 1772275904 719790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ActionLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177148&oldid=177147 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+272) 10add hello world
< 1772276174 826542 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1772278252 561919 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
> 1772278288 56276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ActionLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177149&oldid=177148 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+28) 10/* Hello, World! */ formatting
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< 1772281518 836706 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-36-125.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
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> 1772282467 935611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177150&oldid=164199 5* 0347 5* (+18) 10
> 1772282613 714704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Gaia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177151 5* 0347 5* (+204) 10Created page with "See also the same category in [https://mockupedia.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Gaia] for OS/Tech related stuff and [https://dreamfiction.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Gaia Dream Fiction Wiki] for everything else"
> 1772282633 485307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Gaia14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177152&oldid=177151 5* 0347 5* (+11) 10
> 1772282848 423571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177153&oldid=168159 5* 0347 5* (-289) 10
> 1772282881 104178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177154&oldid=175651 5* 0347 5* (+18) 10
> 1772282969 796125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177155&oldid=177150 5* 0347 5* (+0) 10/* Cat program */
> 1772285039 207877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Gaia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177156 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+140) 10Created page with "was this discussed?? ~~~~"
> 1772285055 857982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 0347 5*  10moved [[02Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly10]] to [[Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename/commmand!]]: rename
> 1772286950 917904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177159&oldid=177138 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-2283) 10
> 1772287343 563720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Gaia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177160&oldid=177156 5* 03Corbin 5* (+265) 10
< 1772287490 80634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^^^ User:47 is an alt of User:Ractangle.
< 1772287553 871223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh, puppets.
< 1772287727 657655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least the user page mentions this.
< 1772287974 284427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh yeah, people keep creating catgories. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Goto_based is another (at least this one could be a topical fit)
< 1772288055 362179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But obviously it hasn't been discussed properly.)
< 1772288275 882977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The one language in there is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Interpriterlol and it's of course underspecified. But from the example the theme here is having a *computed* goto. And a pretty expressive expression syntax.
< 1772288633 14374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't mind the particular themes, but I greatly dislike normalization of deviance. I think I'm allowed to blame current management for it, too; I think that I've laid out a *comprehensive* approach that engages with problematic users at every level, and I'm only unable to carry it out due to lack of approval and oversight.
> 1772289308 371739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bash: foo: No such file or directory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177161&oldid=144014 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+95) 10/* Batch */
> 1772289835 620357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (20-09-2025 to 31-01-2026)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177162 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+37557) 10Created page with "{{Archived|19 September 2025|31 Janurary 2026|[[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]}}                        Hi. I created this account to fix the definition of R (Robin) on the Combinatory Logic page. [[User:Davidwg|Davi
> 1772289914 893267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (20-09-2025 to 31-01-2026)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177163&oldid=177162 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-23) 10Spelling fix and cleared line-breaks.
> 1772289917 163793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177164&oldid=176991 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-37350) 10Cleared to just a month of introductions!
> 1772290062 522745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ByteTilde 5*  10New user account
> 1772290079 921328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177165&oldid=177164 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10Fixed date!
> 1772290082 463953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (20-09-2025 to 31-01-2026)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177166&oldid=177163 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+0) 10Fixed date!
> 1772290479 317565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177167&oldid=169300 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+248) 10/* You're Back!? */ new section
> 1772290574 647787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177168&oldid=177165 5* 03ByteTilde 5* (+216) 10
< 1772291285 636805 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL. Finishing Trackmania maps is NP-hard.
< 1772291428 870482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: huh, aren't games supposed to be at least PSPACE-complete to solve these days?
< 1772291474 762657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Looking at the first track played in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrj8vMzzkE which encodes a SAT problem in the finished checkpoints (the game allows tracks to have linked checkpoints, only one of which has to be taken) :P)
< 1772291508 487431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: racing games? :-P
< 1772291516 673677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, even racing games
< 1772291543 302971 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like if there are interactive elements on the course (including vehicles) that can block a path
< 1772291603 209236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course you won't want those constructions on maps that players are typically playing, because those want to be clearly completable
< 1772291662 905599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But TM doesn't really have any permanent effects I can think of. No switches, no destructible blocks... just a bunch of state attached to the car and some moving blocks that depend on the current time on the track.
< 1772291680 167445 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1772291698 357448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you can't unget checkpoints?
< 1772291705 167945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It's one thing to think about this in the abstract... it's another thing entirely to see an actual reduction as a track. :P
< 1772291734 890407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, checkpoints, once collected, stay collected, unless you finish a lap in a multi-lap track. But that resets all of them at once.
< 1772291823 10631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other thing at play here is that you can reset to the last taken checkpoint. And that might spawn you on a different part of the track that would otherwise be unreachable.
< 1772291882 409715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also... this particular track is a bit open so there might be a stupid simulated physics trick that lets your car drop down without using a checkpoint as a portal. But the concept of the reduction looks sound to me.
< 1772291890 314379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if Mario Kart can remember enough interactive elements (like infinitely bouncing shells) that a reasonable generalization would have their number increase with the size of the track and become PSPACE-complete
> 1772293882 613007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177169&oldid=177167 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+605) 10/* Septem Lingua */ new section
> 1772294076 208318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Septem Lingua14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177170&oldid=177132 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+38) 10
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< 1772296696 571607 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1772297630 915058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Gaia10]]": unapproved category (and unclear purpose)
< 1772297912 711261 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW the purpose of that Gaia category appears to be to denote a fictional AU that has alternate versions of companies like Microsoft and presumably an entire alternate culture of computing.
> 1772297928 432293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177171&oldid=177146 5* 03Ais523 5* (+920) 10/* Category:goto based */ this is somewhat hard to define (and the name may be wrong)
> 1772297934 311628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Goto based10]]": undiscussed category; may be a good idea and is being discussed on the categorisation page at the moment, but the name might be wrong and as such I'm deleting it for the time being to prevent it filling up (which would make it hard to rename)
> 1772298051 949589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177172&oldid=177171 5* 03Ais523 5* (+455) 10/* Category:Graph-based? */ this seems reasonable if there are enough entries, but there might not be
< 1772298412 872429 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:303f:bf6:f20e:2c5e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1772298672 155098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: LOL: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=669081#p669081 vs. https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?p=689061#p689061 (obviously what happened in the meantime is that we have a 100% space age run in under 7h that relies on blocking biter spawns)
< 1772298843 410691 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1772299055 593068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(TBH, for this particular behavior it's their initial reply that this wasn't a bug that surprised me. Because it is very cheesy.)
< 1772299084 357285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: there's a specific fix that I'd prefer for the biter blocking but it's hard to implement so I don't think it will happen. (1) the biter should be able to spawn in the entire area, even between two adjacent power poles, not just at the center of tile every third row and third column. (2) if the biter can't spawn anywhere then it stays in the spawner such that it carries out its normal melee or 
< 1772299090 359232 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spitting attacks, and it exits the nest as soon as it has free space, but you can't damage it because shooting at it only damages the spawner. (there would still be a limit that no more biters spawn if there are already eight in the nest.)
< 1772299156 911107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that it "makes dealing with biters completely trivial" is very much exaggerated
< 1772299194 357078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's thedoh being sarcastic.
< 1772299197 417527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's cheesy in some specific challenge runs, but not in general play
< 1772299218 363029 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the most important reason why it's considered cheese is the new "Keeping your hands clean" achievement
< 1772299242 786588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe using Wube's language from the justification for disallowing reduced biter settings for combat related achievements.
< 1772299270 368462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that achievement is hard in the sense that you don't normally get it in normal playthrough, even if you play fast and efficiently, while other achievements you either get naturally or at least they encourage some strategy that is not too unreasonable
< 1772299291 110514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the biter blocking helps with that one weird achievements and some other voluntary challenges
< 1772299494 89838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said you probably shouldn't trust me on evaluating this, because I don't care much about achievements and I prefer to play without biters 
< 1772299759 449763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the end I don't care; I just find the idea of people not playing a sandbox game the intended way funny.
< 1772300001 900608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even for speedrunners... 100% may actually die this time as a competitive cateogory (or not, maybe there'll be another surprise on the scale of "what if we make the map one huge island"?) and all other categories are not reliant on achievements or easily adjustible like APA.
< 1772300202 345340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Factorio is good as an open-information puzzle game in that it tells you almost all the rules and lets you figure out their consequences, and when you try that you build something that you think is really good, then show it to other players, and then you find out that there's a much better way to do the same even in the specific metric that you tried to optimize for but that you missed even though it is 
< 1772300208 366358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a consequence of the rules that you had known. And even in the cases where it's not open information but you have to experiment to figure out the rules, it can present good puzzles because there aren't many glitches and the rules lead to interesting consequences. So I think blocking nests is very much in the spirit of playing the game as intended, the intent is that you should found out the best 
< 1772300209 562164 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1772300214 372534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :solutions even if the game designers didn't know what those best solutions are. It helps here that the game doesn't have as many serious glitches as many commercial games do.
< 1772300244 21153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are some other interesting things where it's debatable if you consider it a cheesy exploit or an interesting strategy that is fun to discover and learn.
< 1772300343 471146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for the speedrun categories, I hope people will start to play no enemies but other settings on default and random seed, which is an enjoyable middle ground between the two popular categories of any% and default settings random seed 
< 1772300437 851874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you dislike the rich resources in RSNG+?
< 1772301070 426259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I wouldn't say I dislike the rich resources as such, but I think the default density with random seed leads to a more interesting challenge. I admit I do dislike no water in map generation, which is what speedrunners do for any%.
< 1772301122 909172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also people play RSNG+ for Space Age, I want this for without Space Age
< 1772301178 612294 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1772301297 54015 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, admittedly the normal patch density is more interesting with biters, where you can't just bypass it by going far from the starting point and building there soon after early game
< 1772301306 327546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe the speedrun categories do make sense
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< 1772302404 361015 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Prepping for vibecoding challenge round 2: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/ebb60b9bec53c4795f54606e944fccd7
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> 1772304121 634984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177173&oldid=166818 5* 03Mrtli08 5* (+58) 10
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> 1772304250 837908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177174&oldid=177173 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+185) 10/* why */
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< 1772305101 132880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1772305136 664552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: aren't many of those tasks asking people to use LLMs to solve problems that may not be possible?
< 1772305172 628129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case I'm not sure that the experiment is likely to produce useful results – in advance, you should probably define what a success (for vibecoding) and a failure (for vibecoding) will look like
< 1772305210 20767 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I think the "common bytecode" problem is likely to have a vibecodeable solution that technically complies with the spec but is useless
< 1772305234 151319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is an outcome you should allow for (especially as arguably, a human-coded solution that complied with the spec and met non-functional requirements well would also be useless)
< 1772305282 220304 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that all of these are possible and they're all on my side plate. This time around, I'm not actually going to do them in real time and I don't think that that will compromise my ability to detect broken submissions.
< 1772305300 869826 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yeah, I haven't defined the task-specific scoring guides yet.
< 1772305312 293990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Zaddy one reminds me of Feather a lot
< 1772305338 900795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the sense of "it feels like this should be plausible and that I wouldn't expect anyone else to be able to do it" combined with a lot of difficulty actually doing it in practice
< 1772305414 714597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, describing Packrat as "fast" amuses me – from my point of view, most reasonable parsing problems have a fairly simple linear-time solution, and Packrat produces a conceptually simple but practically complicated parser with linear-time performance and a terrible constant factor
< 1772305416 852545 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:303f:bf6:f20e:2c5e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1772305503 167322 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not as bad as the algorithm which solves any polynomial-time problem in polynomial time by bruteforcing through all possible algorithms for solving it, but I mentally put it into a similar category
< 1772305556 7702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. I just want to not mess with parsers. Unrestricted Zaddy should leave parsing to some other language and focus on state-of-the-art tree rewriting.
< 1772305580 463099 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough
< 1772305591 481726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :using packrat is reasonable in the context, I was just amused at the adjectives
< 1772305632 92410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, PEG-based parsers do have a significant problem: It is easy to accidentally write a grammar that doesn't match your intent behind the grammar and, unless you happen across a program that parses incorrectly or not at all, the bug is very hard to spot)
< 1772305700 224836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I think the most convincing evidence would be along the lines of "here's a problem that the Internet hasn't seen before, 80% of the humans we tested it on were able to solve it in 10 minutes, LLMs still can't figure out how to solve it"
< 1772305725 160624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arcprize has been doing a lot of problems of that form, although it's setting reasoning tasks rather than vibecoding tasks
< 1772305745 379318 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I deal with a lot of practical problems. For example, I'm currently writing a Nix evaluator. I need to first parse Nix. Nix's reference implementation uses an LR(k) toolkit, so surely the grammar is LR(k) and I should also use an LR(k) toolkit? I wrongly chose "yes" and had to park the project because it wasn't making progress.
< 1772305760 362704 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Replaced it all with a PEG parser over the course of two days and now the project's back on track.
< 1772305814 146897 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't about being convincing. At this point, it's about immanetizing the AI winter by putting to bed the idea that a senior developer can be replaced by a junior centaur.
< 1772306244 993354 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I view this as an indictment of the quality of current LR(k) toolkits more than anything
< 1772306276 960044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there might be some LR(k) grammars which can't be expressed in PEG, although I'm not sure (and they might be quite artificial-looking)
< 1772306359 500778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my viewpoint on parsers is very much "LR-family parsers logically should be 'better' in basically every respect than GLR and PEG and hand-written parsers, so why doesn't that seem to be the case in practice?"
< 1772306373 432610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you need to define 'better' quite carefully
< 1772306576 923194 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know why LR would be better than GLR, but I don't know GLR well. PEG has two massive advantages over both LR and LL when packrat'd: recursion just works in all cases, and also there's no shift/shift or shift/reduce conflicts.
< 1772306594 121600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :GLR doesn't catch errors at compile time
< 1772306623 430001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you write an ambiguous grammar, it's accepted when generating the parser, but then detected at runtime when it tries to parse something that matches the grammar two different ways
< 1772306671 158103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: "reference implementation uses an LR(k) toolkit, so surely the grammar is LR(k)" => because of how C compilers traditionally use yacc but have to add custom magic code to make it work it's easy to see why that's a fallacy, unless you have actually read the reference implementation parser up close
< 1772306676 96449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(meanwhile, PEG's alternation operator automatically picks one side if it looks like it could match, even if you want the other)
< 1772306868 311332 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Exactly!
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< 1772307507 529541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many parsers that use LR(k) toolkits are not actually LR(k) in practice
< 1772307539 650133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as a simple example, C-INTERCAL uses yacc but has a separate sparkears-matching step in the lexer – I am not currently sure whether that's avoidable or not)
< 1772307597 130335 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think the LR(k) algorithm itself is the last word in parsing, primarily because it doesn't nest well (a regular lexer + an LR(k) parser together may do something that an LR(k) parser couldn't do on its own)
< 1772307638 491074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that just mean that it needs to be generalised a bit (e.g. LR(*) is an obvious generalisation that can handle the combination, although I suspect other generalisations may work better in practice)
< 1772307661 403533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe my objection is "why is LR parsing stuck on LR(k)?"
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> 1772308786 837302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crazy J14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177175&oldid=176797 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+576) 10Elaborate syntax, give short syntactic examples
> 1772308906 544646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177176&oldid=160633 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1138) 10Introduced an examples section tallying a trisulc membership, added a hyperlink to my interpreter implementation on GitHub, and supplemented several page category tags.
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< 1772310278 924391 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Thanks for pushing back and forcing me to clarify my thoughts. I've added 10-point rubrics to each task.
< 1772310332 270691 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need to write that intro. One thing I should emphasize is that yes, starting around Task 3, part of why I haven't just done these yet is because these are some of the hardest and most abstract topics in all of computer science. I'm not some coding wizard; I work hard like any other blockhead.
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< 1772311498 787423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, also, I trust you (and y'all in channel) to not spoil Task 5. I did it a couple *years* ago and part of the test is whether the bot can do technical writing in their own voice without plagiarizing me. https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Conway's+law
< 1772311536 672295 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(If they don't copy me, and they don't copy Conway, who else can they copy? AFAICT *nobody else* wants to notice the mathematical formalism *and* the formal-to-informal bridge simultaneously; it's just the two of us.)
< 1772312274 264179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: do you trust the channel logs to not spoil it? they're probably in LLM training data
< 1772312278 417619 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or will be at some point
< 1772312310 554456 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's not enough for spoilers. It will show up in a Web search too. I just would prefer that people not post it in the lobste.rs challenge thread or as a comment on the gist.
< 1772312310 687296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I thought you were talking about the Conway's law which is about organizations designing things that have the same structure as the organization
< 1772312313 792838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might want to clarify that
< 1772312335 138738 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, it's that same law.
< 1772312448 692715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's an article about it on Wikipedia
< 1772312538 486156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would expect that to be a very likely source for bots to copy from
< 1772313039 562598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: long time no see
< 1772313132 309621 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess it's not obvious? The English WP article is *wrong*. Like, wrong at the seams. Straight-up copied from cliffnotes, did not do the reading, F tier, see me after class.
< 1772313195 380552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it clearly has a very different point of view from your article
< 1772313204 841409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's covering the subject more generally
< 1772313227 510222 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I note that the last paragraph of the lede isn't cited, and it's also the paragraph I'm most suspicious of
> 1772313250 789045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stuley14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177177&oldid=163255 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+18) 10
< 1772313293 420998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after the lede, pretty much the entire article is cited opinions, so it can in a sense only be wrong if the cited persons don't hold the stated opinions
< 1772313333 249781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fwiw, at a previous job I worked on a project that was consciously designed based on Conway's law – we worked out the program structure we needed and designed the organisational structure to match)
< 1772314110 406715 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The given quote is from the paper Conway 1968, but it's the first sentence of the conclusion; it isn't the "proof" that Conway gives on p2-3.
< 1772314177 890911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<Melvin Conway's website> Author's note 42 years after publication: Perhaps this paper's most remarkable feature is that it made it to publication with its thesis statement in the third-last paragraph. To save you the trouble of wading through 45 paragraphs to find the thesis, I'll give an informal version of it to you now: Any organization that designs a system (defined more broadly here than just information systems) will inevitably produce a design whose 
< 1772314179 392154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure.
< 1772314216 946285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically https://www.melconway.com/Home/Committees_Paper.html
> 1772314229 14492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177178&oldid=167692 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-4) 10/* Python implementation */  golfed it a bit now
< 1772314276 911750 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure, and you might also be misled by Conway's wording here: "Is there any predictable relationship between the graph structure of a design organization and the graph structure of the system it designs? The answer is: Yes, the relationship is so simple that in some cases it is an identity. Consider the following "proof.""
< 1772314312 563363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, what he shows is adjacency preservation: "If there is a branch, then the two (not necessarily distinct) design groups X and Y which designed the two nodes must have negotiated and agreed upon an interface specification to permit communication between the two corresponding nodes of the design organization. If, on the other hand, there is no branch between x and y, then the subsystems do not communicate with each other, there was nothing fo
< 1772314312 646771 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :r the two corresponding design groups to negotiate, and therefore there is no branch between X and Y."
< 1772314346 844010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think it makes sense for Wikipedia to consider the relevant part of the paper to be the part that Conway thinks is relevant
< 1772314347 840611 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, later, he says "image" but means "preimage" formally: "If we believe our homomorphism, then we must agree that it does. To the extent that an organization is not completely flexible in its communication structure, that organization will stamp out an image of itself in every design it produces."
< 1772314350 440630 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than the part which was proved
< 1772314383 962083 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that, in either case, WP clearly misses the mark in the next section: "The law is, in a strict sense, only about correspondence; it does not state that communication structure is the cause of system structure, merely describes the connection." Wrong!
< 1772314474 780992 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: BTW sociologists generally misuse the concepts of similarity, as in their use of "isomorphism": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphism_(sociology)
< 1772314475 894243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I think what happened is, Conway thinks there's a particular direction of causation, other people disagree, and the article is trying to explain that the sources disagree on the direction and has worded it a little badly
< 1772314536 915152 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that most people don't understand graph homomorphisms. With the right background, Conway's message shines through brightly and it becomes obvious that the metaphors he is using were not precise enough to convey it otherwise.
< 1772314603 577302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the result is vague because "organisation's communication structure" is not well-defined (and not immutable)
< 1772314605 744707 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The advantage of my interpretation is that I can compute whether a given team, with a given way of organizing and communicating, is able to produce a system based on its design doc.
< 1772314628 59187 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You've never had an employer with rules about who can join which Slack channels?
> 1772314644 566862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177179&oldid=177141 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+1002) 10
< 1772314648 209971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've never been in a team large enough to need them
> 1772314651 306675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck Assembly Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177180&oldid=162250 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-30) 10BAL is not cannon anymore
< 1772314664 249781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, I imagine that in such employers, it would be possible to get the rules changed if they were in the way
< 1772314680 79996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And yeah, Conway's logic allows for evolution over time. Indeed it can be generalized to causets, which are like DAGs for spacetime events. This is part of what lets us imagine anachronisms, for example.
< 1772314686 809731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or use a different form of communcation that wasn't banned
< 1772314732 829207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this sort of thing works better if you consider it working across multiple organisations – there are plenty of instances where, e.g., software developers develop to particular pieces of hardware under the assumption they can't change the spec, and vice versa
< 1772314778 865649 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Specifications are communicable documents.
< 1772314779 221988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this has lead to weirdnesses like the ARM instruction that does float-to-int (or vice versa, I can't remember which) conversions in a way that matches the JavaScript spec rather than the IEEE one
< 1772314819 336302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: OK, but you're now claiming a result which might be true, but is entirely useless – that a program can't interface with something that it has no mechanism at all of gaining any information about
< 1772314831 933333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think this was the point that Conway was trying to make
< 1772314904 229492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice there's normally a gradation of difficulty – some communication is harder than others, some parts of a project are coupled more tightly than others
< 1772314915 743218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is almost certainly a correlation there, but due to the fuzziness it is hard to prove
< 1772314992 247627 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, of course, we can learn a theory from observed data. There's programs out there where you feed them a sequence of flashing GPIOs and they'll construct a (small, efficient) Prolog database which can reproduce the sequence.
< 1772315060 225684 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But no, that's not what either of us are saying. We're saying that the physical components of systems (and I suppose the software interfaces, by extended reasoning) only fit together because they were designed to fit together. The odds of randomly fitting aren't super-great and we see lots of mismatches in nature, so the banana really looks like it was designed, y'know?
< 1772315118 17033 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Conway's saying, as a sociologist, that as we walk through our modern jungle we see plenty of components that fit together. Each time something fits together it's because of communication between the designers; it's just too unlikely otherwise.
< 1772315132 235628 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I disagree that that is what Conway is saying
< 1772315167 406081 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a true statement, but it's not a very interesting one and I don't think it's the point that Conway was getting at
< 1772315220 419158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Conway's point is more along the lines of "the tightness of coupling between two parts of a software system is correlated to the extent/amount of communication between the people who produced them"
< 1772315239 892532 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quoting from two adjacent paragraphs: "Dropping down one level, an airplane, for example. may possess subsystems for structure, propulsion, power distribution, communication, and payload packaging. The propulsion subsystem has fuel, ignition, and starting subsystems, to name a few."
< 1772315250 765911 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"For example, the investigation of an airplane crash attempts to produce a theory explaining a complex event. It can consist of subtheories describing the path of the aircraft, its radio communications, the manner of its damage, and its relationship to nearby objects at the time of the event."
< 1772315296 456360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what point those quotes are supposed to support
< 1772315331 179196 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure where tight and loose coupling come in. For Conway's examples, the physical objects *are* coupled; the nature of the coupling isn't really investigated.
< 1772315376 232532 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Conway is viewing system design as a nested hierarchy
< 1772315421 798486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that view, tighter coupling is being grouped together near the branches of the hierarchy, whereas looser coupling is communicating nearer the root (e.g. separate branches off the root)
< 1772315433 231247 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. But his view of graphs can be un-nested. It's easy to verify that graph homomorphisms are preserved for any sort of sub- or super-nodes.
< 1772315526 313673 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night    😴
< 1772315570 792937 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: Night!
< 1772315598 743564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think you're arguing that part of a project cannot at all depend on an internal detail of another part – and that's clearly a false statement (it's true in general that parts of a project *try to avoid* depending on internals of other parts, in order to avoid being excessively fragile or breaking from what people expected to be non-breaking changes, but it does happen, both intentionally and accidentally)
< 1772315665 613496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, Conway's article cites one of Parkinson's laws
< 1772315684 80588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I'm pretty sure were intended as jokes with a grain of truth in them, rather than as actual theorems
< 1772315773 52904 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Conway's footnote 3 is a pretty good summary of the whole discussion, I think: "This claim may be viewed several ways. It may be trivial, hinging on the definition of meaningful negotiation. Or, it may be the result of the observation that one design group almost never will compromise its own design to meet the needs of another group unless [doing so is] absolutely imperative."
< 1772315865 992434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Conway is viewing communication as a negotiation – there are other possible forms of communication, such as experimentation or reading a specification or reading source code, and that complicates matters
< 1772315980 408053 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! I just realized. So, I only started copy-pasting because you linked the HTML, but before that, I was reading the PDF. Have you *seen* Fig. 2? I know you've seen Fig. 3, because it's the one that's always reposted, but there's a clear version at https://www.melconway.com/Home/pdf/committees.pdf
< 1772316035 797005 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The mapping of zeta-prime to zed shows that this isn't an isomorphism or identity mapping. It's the more general case: homomorphism.
< 1772316120 772185 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, it's quite fun to know that this is such a contentious claim. The admins over at nLab were also irritated, but mostly because they'd never heard of Conway's Law at all and thought I'd invented it.
< 1772316168 990780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :figure 2 is also in the HTML
< 1772316182 879672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's itty-bitty. I can't read it. My eyes are not super-great.
< 1772316216 668510 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a commutative diagram which has two nodes x and y connected by an "interface x-y", which commutes with two designers X and Y and a "Coordinator X-Y"
< 1772316258 960703 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is a contentious point in three different respects (definitions, direction of causality, and whether the diagram actually needs to commute in practice)
< 1772316283 913524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I think that whether or not the design inherently commutes depends on which definitions you use!
< 1772316553 624477 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess. But I still think that I have a computational justification for claims made from it, whereas the typical C-suite is operating wholly on vibes, and I think that the main difference is our willingness to do maths.
< 1772316566 392684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the relevant sentence about Conway's view is "If there is a branch, then the two (not necessarily distinct) design groups X and Y which designed the two nodes must have negotiated and agreed upon an interface specification to permit communication between the two corresponding nodes of the design organization." which is unfortunately ambiguous and makes it hard to work out Conway's viewpoint (specifically, the concept of "negotiate and agree" has multiple 
< 1772316567 664513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reasonable definitions)
< 1772316609 492658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and footnote 3 implies that Conway also understands it to be ambiguous / definition-dependent
< 1772316623 721869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such I don't think this is a mathematical result, there is relevant fuzziness that Conway was aware of
< 1772316789 245272 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, in distributed systems, we take it fairly seriously when we can rule out whether two machines were communicating. (I think we've talked about the four tenses before.)
< 1772316811 544756 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But sure, I'll grant that humans magically absorb information from their ambient environment.
< 1772316830 196516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and I just noticed that Conway's statement doesn't imply a direction of causality either, "if x communicates with y then X must have negotiated with Y" could happen either because x and y needed to communicate and that forced X and Y to negotiate, or because X and Y were negotiating already and so they allowed their x and y to communicate with each other
< 1772316929 393116 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Negotiation is sometimes implicit or low-level, below our focus. Am I negotiating with Doug Crockford when I read the JSON spec from json.org? What's relevant is Crockford's presence in my past lightcone, not the specifics of our HTTP messages.
< 1772316988 349839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed – I think this is the point that lead to the more nuanced versions of Conway's Law
< 1772317012 290700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :implicit and low-level negotiation is different in a sense from explicit / high-level negotiation
< 1772317034 700182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the more actively you can negotiate and agree, the more tightly you can couple
< 1772317078 107451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, this doesn't mean that tight coupling is necessarily a good idea – the consensus project management for designing large systems involves a preference for loose coupling even between two things designed by the same person)
< 1772317196 744824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm reminded of one of the biggest ongoing project-management-style disagreements about designing Rust programs: in Rust, if an item in a module is used by other modules in the same crate, but not outside the crate, you can define it either as pub or as pub(crate) and the two are equivalent
< 1772317214 516288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming the module itself isn't visible outside the crate)
< 1772317280 40216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many people have strong views on which you should use – for me, "pub" is correct because a module shouldn't care what's going on in the crate around it, only about the interface it itself presents
< 1772317397 802356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I don't like the pub(crate) annotation either. mod, use, and plain pub are expressive enough that you shouldn't need qualified pub to express visibilities.
< 1772317494 220115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use pub(crate) on rare occasions but it's like friend in C++ – it's there to intentionally make holes in the visibility system when you're doing something that's locally unsound but globally sound
< 1772317533 122200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I don't know if this still applies if you can have the restrictions that the modern impl type return values add, where rust doesn't have a decltype and a crate may export a function that returns a type but not export the type so users of the crate aren't allowed to name it
< 1772317606 202807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think pub(crate) helps in that situation but might be wrong
< 1772317627 532238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I don't like C++ friend. it may have made sense in ancient C++, but today with all the modern features like templates, the friend feature just makes the name lookup rules of C++ extra complicated without adding much expressivity to the language, so it's a load that isn't worth its cost
< 1772317628 600699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two cases: a) where the return value is specifically "impl Trait", b) where the return value is a specific concrete type that the user can't name
< 1772317677 610399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the latter can happen if the type is a public type in a private module – those can be returned from functions that are siblings of the module, but can't be named by their callers)
< 1772317693 702578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they appear unlinked in the docs, just the name but you can't click on it for more details
< 1772317751 418358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(impl Trait is also a specific concrete type, but one that at present *nobody* can name – although there are proposals for a return type notation to allow you to name them by saying "the return type of T::method")
< 1772317765 606135 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not with that syntax of course)
< 1772318403 87969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nightly can sort of do it with impl_trait_in_assoc_type: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=nightly&mode=debug&edition=2024 (seen here: https://github.com/embassy-rs/embassy/blob/ac1d8719b64cba62a132d12ba1cba107ce88afa8/embassy-executor-macros/src/macros/task.rs#L198-L208 )
< 1772318436 386359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The corresponding tracking issue is from 2019 though :P https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/63063
< 1772318512 973949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as far as I understand you can't just add decltype to rust. currently if a crate exports a function that returns an impl Trait then the users aren't allowed to depend on the specific type that the function returns, so later versions of the crate can change it without that causing an incompatibility. if you allowed the user of the crate to name that type with decltype then this would no longer be true. 
< 1772318518 982855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but decltype might still work for when the return type is a specific type, it just can't be named directly because it refers to a name that isn't exported.
< 1772318538 671810 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the future becomes namable as <() as Foo)::Fut )
< 1772318555 81661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...modulo obvious syntax errors
< 1772318713 629079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if an impl Trait return looks as if the function returned a newtype used only in this function and the field of the newtype is private to the crate, but inside the crate that newtype is transparently constructed and deconstructed
< 1772318742 375996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course that newtype implements Trait by forwarding it to its field
< 1772318875 816887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that link to the playground doesn't link to any code by the way
< 1772318883 218132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of the motivation for return type notation was so you could say "where the return type of this method is Send"
< 1772318898 100899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that does break current impl Trait information hiding principles
< 1772318898 292336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIUC it's a completely opaque type to you as a user, but the compiler knows the representation even in other crates.
< 1772318936 222342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(well, sorry, I'm stuck on the particular case of async/Future)
< 1772318947 957109 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, that's intentional for it to be able to optimise around the specific type
< 1772318959 547816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Rather than the generic impl Trait, which is still opaque but the compiler isn't likely to poke around in it.)
< 1772318966 789135 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference is that some of the new features are making aspects of the type observable, such as its size, alignment and sendiness
< 1772318970 906560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, the compiler has to know the actual type to be able to generate code at all
< 1772318999 818844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although, you can't *specialise* on the sendiness, so the observation of the sendiness only affects whether or not the program compiles)
< 1772319026 11345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess "sendability" is a better word than "sendiness" for this
< 1772319200 595852 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that new features? surely you could always observe the size of a value even in old rust
< 1772319231 690724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: size_of_val works even in current Rust, but not at compile time
< 1772319281 865095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you can observe it in runtime only? I see
< 1772319283 558418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, I think you could probably call a function that takes the impl-Trait as a generic argument and have it do the size_of for you?
< 1772319331 317017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's offset_of!((function_with_secret_return_type(), ()), 1) but that macro is somewhat new to Rust
< 1772319362 760386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and isn't guaranteed to give the right result
< 1772319381 992752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because (T, U) doesn't have a stable layout
< 1772319437 200093 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also offset_of! also takes a type, not a value
< 1772319456 769377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I think current Rust can't check the size of an impl Trait at compile time
< 1772319462 126412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh true
< 1772319469 521859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible at runtime using multiple methods (with size_of_val being provided for the purpose)
< 1772319477 787340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust tuples don't guarantee their representation, and for a good reason
< 1772319593 68110 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need a #[repr(C)] struct for that, and you can't define one without naming the type; and yes, offset_of! needs a type
> 1772319754 946803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177181&oldid=177168 5* 03Oak lod 5* (+202) 10Added introduction
< 1772319767 714056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think you would need to be able to name the type to do the compile time pointer subtraction trick
> 1772319786 638385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Oak lod14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177182 5* 03Oak lod 5* (+10) 10Created page with "Wadup gng."
> 1772319796 874153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAESAR\14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177183&oldid=106928 5* 03Oak lod 5* (+440) 10Fixed multiple spelling errors and updated code snippets
> 1772320057 98479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAESAR\14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177184&oldid=177183 5* 03Ais523 5* (-30) 10the first letter of a page name is case-insensitive, so you don't need to pipe a link purely to change the case of that letter
< 1772320084 512306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still hate how C doesn't clearly specify whether offsetof(struct { int p }, p) is valid to write, because while most syntactic constructs like sizeof get formal grammars with pages of standardese describing what exactly is allowed, offsetof is just a macro so it doesn't get such a detailed description.
< 1772320102 132887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's clearly invalid in C++, but that doesn't solve the problem
< 1772320121 198936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some point C compilers disagreed about this
> 1772320134 219028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAESAR\14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177185&oldid=177184 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-404) 10convert lists to wikitext
< 1772320134 642914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should check if they fixed this in later C standards
< 1772320236 589618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does offsetof work on unions?
< 1772320257 841403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it isn't ever useful, which makes it unclear whether it would be allowed or not
< 1772320285 848582 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it does, it pretty much has to because of anonymous unions in structs
< 1772320532 411778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in struct f { int p; union { int m; float n; }; }; ... int main() { return offsetof(f, m); }
> 1772320542 758773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAESAR\14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177186&oldid=177185 5* 03Oak lod 5* (+49) 10Added interpreter link
> 1772320649 819092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Oak lod 5*  10moved [[02CAESAR\10]] to [[CAESAR]]: Misspelled title
> 1772320949 816990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CAESAR/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177189 5* 03Oak lod 5* (+20) 10Added re-direct for old page title
< 1772321100 367420 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:303f:bf6:f20e:2c5e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1772322694 386641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177190&oldid=177176 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Rectified the page category tag expressing the year from 2024 to the correct 2025.