< 1772669522 551370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1772671216 732394 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I had heard of experiments of programming languages with game controllers before, although I do not remember now what they are. < 1772671281 281990 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1772671479 362493 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Separate mode for command mode and insert mode like vi, might be one thing to help, maybe. < 1772671912 249073 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. That's a feature of the editors I'm thinking about, from games like Actraiser or Portal 2. < 1772672032 239247 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how well uxntal would work. Depending how many buttons on the game controller (uxn itself defines eight, the same as Game Boy or NES/Famicom). < 1772673333 494574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1772673371 531579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is definitely an accessibility question, I think < 1772673467 496435 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How many buttons does your game controller have? < 1772673773 588461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: this is mostly a hypothetical, but I could obtain one with quite a lot of buttons if necessary < 1772673820 77448 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a typical modern game controller has four shoulder buttons, a 4-directional d-pad, four face buttons, two analog sticks that can be pushed in to serve as an extra button, and some special-purpose buttons that would be hard to use for general input < 1772673936 247077 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm mentally already at the bar, speedrunning. I'm imagining entering my name in Zelda 3 with a SNES controller. < 1772674764 646401 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the game controller I currently own is a generic one designed to be able to emulate a playstation, xbox or gamecube controller < 1772674780 72840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I haven't used it in a while < 1772674830 462163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it also has a button to cause the analog sticks to be quantized as though they were d-pads, in case you want to emulate an older controller type like a game boy's) < 1772674865 141816 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does it not already have a d-pad? < 1772674991 536931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, you can use that instead < 1772674997 72561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the analog stick is in a better place to press < 1772674998 435763 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a similar pad. A Logitech USB controller. I've got like four of them; they were popular at the time. < 1772675000 664644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the left one, at least < 1772675057 956617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have realised that probably I write more comments than I do actual code, in my projects, so the main problem might be to have an efficient way to input text using a game controller < 1772675070 646350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the standard "move a cursor along a grid of letters" works to some extent but is extremely slow < 1772675276 91368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If using it for a programming language, then possibly a separate mode might be used for ordinary text than for the programming code syntax. Comments is not the only things where you might do that though; there is also e.g. character strings (although some programs will not use many character strings) < 1772675447 129479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and many programs that do use character strings aren't storing human-readable text in them (although some are) < 1772675494 245726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that is also a valid consideration < 1772675537 970065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like for program code, something based around strong typing and syntax similar to that of Java methods would be helpful, so that you could get a fairly list of methods that were applicable to the type of the expression you had written so far < 1772675615 78088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I think an Emacs-like modal interface would work better than a vi-like one (the difference is that vi uses keypresses to change between modes, whereas an Emacs-like interface holds a key to enter commands and releases it to go back to the equivalent of insert mode) < 1772675730 327752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for English text, I suspect the best method involves choosing the word you want from a list of predictions, with the ability to enter an approximation to reorder the list based on a combination of prediction and similarity to the approximation < 1772675752 88335 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most input methods that I've seen seem to boil down to that < 1772675770 328799 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chording would be another idea, although I do not know how well that works with a game controller < 1772675784 159610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mobile phones use it, and most CJK input methods work like that too < 1772675786 363956 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for the purpose of entering English text, I mean, rather than in general) < 1772675804 284169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :chording works very well on a game controller as long as you aren't chording two face buttons or two opposite d-pad directions < 1772675854 60060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the opposite directions are often blocked in hardware or software, whereas all game controllers I'm aware have hardware/software capable of chording face buttons but it's a physically difficult button combination to press) < 1772675855 496818 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, but is it enough combinations when you exclude those combinations that don't work as well? < 1772675945 543905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should be – if you exclude diagonals on the d-pad because they're hard to press accurately, you have 4×4×2⁴ combinations that chord a d-pad direction and face button and any number of shoulder buttons < 1772676041 709216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like probably using only two of the shoulder buttons would be desirable if aiming for input speed, though, and not chording face buttons with d-pad because you would have to be careful to release both before pressing the next input < 1772676072 717740 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some might be needed to switch modes (I think the Emacs will not work due to needing to enter different kind of text; in some cases the mode will switch automatically based on what command is entered in the program, but sometimes it is necessary to do so manually). < 1772676089 900059 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(If you have four shoulder buttons then it is possible to use other one for such a purpose, I suppose) < 1772676120 938437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so 8×2² which is 32 – enough for 26 letters and a few special cases (and the more difficult-to-enter combinations could use other buttons) < 1772676181 19854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is totally doable and might actually be faster than a keyboard once you get used to it – but it also seems like it would be difficult to learn < 1772676189 325702 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is 5-bit code such as Baudot code < 1772676212 922680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the input mechanism would have to be learned from scratch, it would make sense to try to get it right first time, rather than ending up with a QWERTY situation < 1772676256 76076 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that seem it would be a good idea, but it might be difficult to do that. < 1772676312 760731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION looks up prior art
< 1772676328 473470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently some games have used 8 analog stick directions × 4 face buttons to produce a 32-option keyboard < 1772676370 740098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a clever idea to do chording, you don't have to worry about accidental orthogonal presses while trying to hit the diagonals because the position of the stick only matters when the face button is pressed < 1772676519 87274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure whether 8 is the right number of directions, an analog stick can theoretically distinguish between a very large number of directions but if you have too many a human can't hit them accurately < 1772676589 290321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one game I played a lot when I was younger made diagonal inputs easier to hit by using one of the shoulder buttons as a way to filter out orthogonal inputs, so that only diagonal ones would be accepted < 1772676593 625759 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :More than eight is probably too difficult, and possibly more than four might be difficult (although maybe not); I think using buttons is probably easier, even though there are less combinations (but diagonals will be possible) < 1772676614 889012 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might mix well with an "8 directions on the analog stick" approach – you could have ambiguous inputs be interpreted as orthogonal if not holding the button and diagonal if holding the button < 1772676642 44266 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that might work < 1772676669 875796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although that is for when directions are needed, e.g. in a game; for text input it does not seem relevant since you can use the button combinations directly instead) < 1772676891 910574 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gonna take this question to the bar and see if folks have any interesting examples. Back in a few hours. Peace. < 1772677642 671881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION measures their own typing speed with QWERTY, as a baseline
< 1772677649 851751 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's around 450 characters per minute, it seems < 1772677663 151978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so 7.5 characters a second < 1772677669 232900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may be hard to match that with a game controller input < 1772677677 781503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this was tested on easy, common words) < 1772677716 458395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is much faster than the average person but considerably slower than people who actively aim for typing speed records, which seems about right < 1772677829 980007 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :matching that on a game controller seems difficult, especially if chording is required, but maybe not impossible < 1772679383 9751 :amby!~ambylastn@host-78-151-24-174.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement > 1772681173 316886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Airline Food14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177379&oldid=99893 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+288) 10 > 1772681843 536329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Input hello world or else without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177380&oldid=177284 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (-24) 10/* Interpreters */ > 1772682050 338611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177381&oldid=177354 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+191) 10/* Syntax */ MEHR > 1772682156 550748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177382&oldid=177381 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+64) 10/* FizzBuzz */ MEHR > 1772682231 234726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177383&oldid=171185 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+37) 10/* Languages known for self-interpretation */ > 1772683014 457446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177384&oldid=177382 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+543) 10 > 1772683034 958409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177385&oldid=177384 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+2) 10/* Notes */ < 1772685379 153016 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1772686949 592850 :somefan!~somefan@user/somefan QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1772687191 978313 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo < 1772688725 527693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Folks at the bar were interested but didn't have many examples. A couple folks mentioned Super Mario Maker (2), which is a good example, if buggy. < 1772688906 583605 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got a 2:05 in-game time on Super Metroid, which is not great IMO. I did get first-try mockball into early supers, though. < 1772689234 798378 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1772689495 739262 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe < 1772691239 130153 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which do you think are some rules of Magic: the Gathering, or of some other game (chess, Pokemon, etc) that will only be significant very rarely that a puzzle can be made up that involves it in a way possibly other than what the rule was intended for? < 1772691391 891904 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have tried to do such things with Hero Hearts, revealing that some things documented as invariant weren't; e.g. the "Explain Death" option is not supposed to affect the behaviour of the game (a replay list is supposed to have the same meaning whether or not this option is enabled, and regardless of what speed it is played back at), but I made a puzzle that depends on it.) < 1772691453 844231 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My implementation of Hero Hearts does not emulate this bug, nor does it emulate some of the related bugs, although some bugs that do not violate these invariants are emulated if they do affect the behaviour of the game.) < 1772694352 634477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Yu-Gi-Oh has some rules like that but they're convoluted enough that I don't really understand how they work (and some of them may be subjective) < 1772694393 981038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it used to have a rule that you cannot perform an action that creates an infinite loop, which some people exploited to win by constructing a gamestate where almost any action by the opponent would create an infinite loop, forcing them to pass their turn < 1772694444 822161 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the rule was changed to match the situation if a loop gets created by a game rule rather than an action, which is that the judge moves the card most responsible for the loop (which is subjective and hard to define) into the graveyard < 1772694476 12293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I should go to bed (thanks for the discussion/ideas korvo) < 1772694480 26275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night < 1772694492 78754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and thanks for the ideas zzo38, too < 1772694504 261975 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Good night! < 1772694510 92050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it feels like this should be doable but will take some work and practice < 1772694515 223581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1772694683 272883 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :That rule for loops doesn't seem a very good rule for infinite loops; the rule in Magic: the Gathering looks like better to me < 1772694905 80179 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(How commonly is rule 731 used in Magic: the Gathering puzzles?) (Although, rule 731.1c says tournaments use different rules for loops) < 1772695119 36224 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Even the rules in Magic: the Gathering are not perfect; one change I would make is to distinguish between implicit draws and explicit draws, with different rules relating to them (and different rules cause each kind), but in both cases the final result of the game will be a draw) < 1772695823 900998 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1772697704 242352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Input hello world or else without a quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177386&oldid=177380 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+24) 10that is still output only < 1772700034 78277 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1772700034 105171 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 CHGHOST ~somefan :user/somefan < 1772707305 445525 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a vivid recollection of having seen a video of some sort of novel input mechanism, years back, when predictive text input still felt kind of novel, but I can't recall any of the detail so not sure how amenable that would be for gamepad input. < 1772707487 434798 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, Dasher! < 1772707491 226352 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`thanks Gemini < 1772707494 692943 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, Gemini. Themini. < 1772707502 96190 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The mini, heh. < 1772707508 996634 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Found it in an AI-assisted way.) < 1772707529 185066 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software) < 1772707568 25035 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I _guess_ you could use that approach with a gamepad, since it only requires a two-dimensional pointing mechanism of some kind (so a single analog stick would suffice), but it'd be throwing away most of the capabilities of one. < 1772707690 218847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :was this the inspiration for flappy bird :P < 1772707732 742626 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just remembered it because it was so visual. Whoosh. < 1772707734 612730 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin < 1772707777 293128 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently (at least according to the 2006 paper) imagined as a text input mechanism for brain-computer interfaces, which sounds plausible enough. < 1772707909 534221 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you've got two eyes, two hands, and a gamepad with two analog sticks, surely you could handle an input system with two independent Dasher squares, say one for individual letters and one for predicted words. < 1772707919 665742 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps presented on some sort of head-mounted display, one per eye. < 1772707966 570705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a lot of equipment to replace a *check notes* keyboard < 1772708285 330563 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :AIUI, you're not supposed to *write* programs any more, anyway, you're supposed to just direct "agentic" things that do it for you, so surely you just need to slap a speech-to-text/text-to-speech interface on top of one of those, though. < 1772708296 211359 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, on a crowded bus maybe that won't make you the most popular person. < 1772708357 234106 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Dasher is a cute idea, but I imagine that its cognitive load is way too substantial for using it for anything serious. (The downside of using adaptive predictions, as I believe they do, is that you can't learn fixed input sequences.) < 1772708519 983162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Re: AI. https://bsky.app/profile/ianboudreau.com/post/3mgc2aaktak2s resonated strongly with me. < 1772708592 183888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Though if I were to express my own sentiments I'd probably dwell on the subsidy aspect of it too, and the anti-human attitude behind it all ("People? Where WE are going we won't need people!") < 1772708902 416182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, the outcome will be terrible if this comes crashing down (maybe 2026, maybe 2027...), but I believe the outcome will be worse if any of this shit starts working (the AGI dream, the singularity...). And not because of alignment problems, but because of who is doing this and how they'll use it. < 1772712816 458754 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1772712830 817387 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1772712886 141575 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1772713329 654774 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in < 1772714498 288940 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: There's an Atari 2600 game called BASIC programming, but it only technically matches your question. You are typing the command and giving commands not the normal ATARI 2600 joystick, but on a pair of controllers that each have 12 buttons in a telephone keypad arrangements. These can be used for multiple different games with printed legend overlay sheets, so they're technically game controllers. < 1772714504 597871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Normally two separate players use the two controllers, but for BASIC programming they're used by one player. < 1772714698 724938 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If you're aiming for a bus then I don't think you can count the full range that you mentioned, as in four shoulder buttons, two joysticks, a d-pad and four face buttons. I don't think you can reasonably hold both such a controller and read a display on a bus. You can get close with a Nintendo Switch or Switch 2, but you'll only get two shoulder buttons, not four. < 1772714852 634293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, even just that, two controllers, only works if you're sitting on a bus, I don't think you can reasonably use the normal range of two controllers while standing. < 1772714930 655888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want to write programs while standing on a bus, one of the commercial programmable calculators could work. Their keypad is normally designed to be typed on with one hand while the calculator is sitting on a desk, but they also work for typing with your thumb with the calculator is handheld, that's just slower. < 1772715077 611871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The TI-92 is an exception, it has an unusual large keyboard that's bigger than you can use with one hand. I don't really know what it's optimized for, as in how you're supposed to operate it. I've seen a working specimen in real life very long ago, but I don't think I operated it, or only for a very short time. < 1772715128 121302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you just want to "manage" your "agents", maybe a Tinder-like interface for proposed changes could suffice ;) < 1772715129 616597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There exist various hardware designed specifically to work as chorded keyboards, both ones held in one hand and ones held in two hands. < 1772715176 637680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Btw Atari 2600 Basic programming is very limited, but that's because the Atari 2600 has very little RAM. < 1772715217 699438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? memory < 1772715221 271137 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :memory? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1772715227 800583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if they made a better version for the Atari 5200 . < 1772716312 660569 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've also only very briefly seen a TI-92. It wasn't particularly popular at school, I imagine mostly because it had a CAS, and therefore it was forbidden to use as a calculator in exams. We "all" just had TI-86s (the school ran a discount bulk order thing), except a few people who already had a TI-85 and continued to use it, and one or two oddball HP RPN calculator users. < 1772716461 91591 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :TI-86 had come out in 1996, I think I entered the level of school where a graphing calculator was expected (years 7-12 if numbered consecutively starting from 1) in 1997. So it was the hot new thing. < 1772716541 755797 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually it must've been 1996 already, because I got out of there in 2002. Off-by-one errors. < 1772716752 983625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I never went to any schooling where a handheld graphing or programmable calculator was expected. Only a minority of students had anything like that. Programming and drawing graphs on desktop PCs in a computer lab seating twenty-something people was expected occasionally. < 1772716801 608468 :amby!~ambylastn@78.151.24.174 JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1772716871 127315 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :We had a sorta slightly "math-focused" line, maybe that accounted for it. < 1772716888 283412 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The teacher had a slide projector attachment for their TI-85. < 1772716922 992395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh advanced optics < 1772716932 909197 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As in, a bulky transparent LCD display that you could put on top of an overhead projector (that you would put slides on) to show the display mirrored on the wall. < 1772716961 815460 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You couldn't plug it into a regular TI-85, it had to be a special model. < 1772716999 454142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, a special display that doesn't melt from the projector < 1772717014 263961 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They'd written a TI-BASIC program that made like a stage curtain kind of an effect followed by a " presents" box. < 1772717018 617051 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :They were _very_ proud of that. < 1772717066 783549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought that's the part that you do with hand-drawn transparency slide stop motion < 1772717084 722531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :before you put the calculator screen on < 1772717092 563317 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also I'm not sure why I'm defaulting to a gender-neutral pronoun here, there was no ambiguity about that. Probably from writing interview feedback recently.) < 1772717135 545057 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I guess Finnish only has the one singular third-person pronoun, and this was a Finnish person I'm talking about, could be that too.) < 1772717158 650276 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it's more impressive when it's Computer Graphics™. < 1772717172 209997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully they won't mind < 1772717210 345808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you connect that projector to the students' TI-86 calculator so they can show stuff projected to the whole class too? < 1772717240 39459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, you already answered < 1772717245 283747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"You couldn't plug it into a regular TI-85" < 1772717295 591385 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, sadly no. It didn't do it over the link cable protocol. < 1772717314 772807 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which as I recall is kind of an interesting protocol as well, it doesn't have a fixed baud rate, it's an async kind of a thing. < 1772717758 245683 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, assuming I can trust Gemini (but this description _sounds_ like the one I've seen but couldn't find), it's a bit of an oddity in that there's no clock line as such, it's a three-wire protocol with ground and two data lines ("red" and "white"). To send a bit, one side pulls either the red (0) or white (1) line down, and then the other end acknowledges that by pulling the _other_ line down < 1772717760 793902 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which the sender waits for). < 1772717776 455826 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it runs at whatever speed the two endpoints involved can manage to run this process. < 1772717815 497417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, for the original question, something where the keypad looks like a good calculator keypad but has more capability to detect multiple keys pressed at the same time could work as chorded input on the bus I think < 1772717815 710164 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the calculator ROM code just bit-bangs it out with the Z80 CPU instead of using an UART or something. < 1772717820 850972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for one handed typing that is < 1772717831 530456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thumb handheld < 1772717854 993786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd need one of those chorded palm thingies if you want to use multiple fingers to type < 1772720414 853067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's "long/bumpy car/bus journeys", not short public transport ride to school, so sitting down can be assumed. then two controllers is fine. < 1772720423 522339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or like two hands on a controller < 1772720439 514275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might even be able to affix the display on the seat in front of you < 1772721058 283954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1772721221 538029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: that wire protocol does sound a lot like async electronics (which I've worked a lot with at a previous job) – the usual protocol I would use for that in async programming uses three data wires (one for which the sender changes the logic level to send a 0, one for which the sender changes the logic level to send a 1, and one which the receiver changes the logic level to acknowledge). but that's an interesting way of reducing the number of wires < 1772721222 950045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :required < 1772721257 287014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it does seem a little inefficient because after sending a bit, you have to unsend it and then wait for the caller to acknowledge the unsend, because you can't visibly pull down a wire that someone else is also pulling down) < 1772722202 583105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you've probably seen the recent video about another interesting async electronic protocol: https://www.linusakesson.net/hardware/frontpanel/index.php < 1772722241 35916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think technically that's async from one side only, whereas the link cable between calculators is async both ways < 1772722585 563650 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1772724910 206820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with async in practice is that there's always at least one part of the circuit where wire propagation delay matters (in the sense that if it's too large or too small the circuit malfunctions) – there's a theorem that limits the computational class of what you can do without that to something obviously useless < 1772724944 717154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, it's possible to manufacture circuits like that in practice, but it means that one of the simplifying assumptions you'd normally use no longer holds < 1772724948 672199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is async hardware, specifically) < 1772725481 680757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but we don't want fully async hardware, just an async interface between two hardware that do have reasonable timing limits inside < 1772725511 701483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that is possible, it just needs more wires than typical interfaces, and has a bit of overhead < 1772725556 966899 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1772725607 552904 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the TI protocol is a four-step one. Sender pulls one line down and waits; receiver acks it by pulling the other line down and waits; sender reacts to the ack by letting the first line float back high and waits; receiver reacts by letting the other line also go back up; and that finally signals to the sender it can start transmitting the next bit. < 1772725620 886748 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you use it where the few extra wires and the overhead doesn't matter too much, but you want portability between all sorts of different hardware, and possibly software control without too much of a specific controller < 1772725733 943537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is so that you can drive this from software on a PC where the operating system can sometimes take control from the communications software for long time unpredictably < 1772725772 35146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :without needing extra communications hardware or special support in the operating system < 1772725934 976173 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There were also various more or less kosher ways of wiring the link cable to a PC, including the "$4 serial link" https://www.ticalc.org/images/cables/seriallinkpic.gif , the "$5 parallel link", and for the posh, the PIClink (which uses a PIC16F84 microcontroller to translate between the calculator and RS232 in a way compatible with TI's official software). < 1772725943 994511 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And of course also the official overpriced solution from TI. < 1772726194 995377 :chloetax2!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe < 1772726195 611443 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1772726195 912235 :chloetax2!~chloe@user/chloetax NICK :chloetax < 1772726697 571179 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1772728901 651756 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1772729070 182676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lehbar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177387&oldid=177361 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (-355) 10/* Syntax */ < 1772729433 389324 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1772729505 508760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1772731176 563846 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1772732821 599441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1772732891 331638 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1772733441 132613 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1772734449 275195 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1772738460 910552 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1772739057 200364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1772740092 975613 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1772740167 36353 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 267 seconds < 1772740266 524987 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1772740527 949410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotator14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177388&oldid=164777 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+7762) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending two incipial members, added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp, and modified the page category tag Unimplemented to Implemented. > 1772741452 837624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rickrolling14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177389&oldid=177368 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+27) 10adding another category < 1772741769 773519 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night 😴 > 1772743008 81096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Frog 5* 10New user account > 1772743623 456011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JanitorRaus 5* 10New user account > 1772743972 842976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177390&oldid=177375 5* 03JanitorRaus 5* (+262) 10/* Introductions */ > 1772744129 318040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177391&oldid=167714 5* 03JanitorRaus 5* (+14) 10Replace dead mega link for Langton's Ant. For those who were missing this, enjoy! > 1772744733 58345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177392&oldid=177390 5* 03Frog 5* (+162) 10/* Introductions */ > 1772744749 343185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177393&oldid=175502 5* 03Frog 5* (+237) 10/* if (x == 0) { code } */ > 1772744970 854195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177394&oldid=177393 5* 03Frog 5* (-10) 10/* if (x == 0) { code } */ < 1772745518 856321 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1772745930 316309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1772745958 911425 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just suddenly realised that a search engine could detect adverts, or even cookie popups, as a method of filtering out websites that people probably don't want in their search results < 1772745975 178599 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, I've been doing research into how chorded keyboards normally work < 1772746006 711000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's the greatest fit for a games console, they mostly rely on all possible pressed/non-pressed combinations < 1772746051 164705 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also looked into the keyboards that are used to set typing speed records, and they have a number of interesting differences from regular keyboards < 1772746115 141919 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mostly they're based around a grid system where you can press between the keys in order to press two adjacent keys simultaneously (to act as a virtual key in between), this is combined with chording to allow the fingers on each hand to type consonants / consonant clusters simultaneously < 1772746159 314381 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the thumbs type the vowels, using a similar method but with only four states for each thumb (left key, right key, between the keys, or unpressed) to provide 15 different vowel clusters (or not at all to indicate no vowels) < 1772746212 931274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the chords for the fingers are normally pressed in a roughly horizontal line, rather than having the fingers move upwards/downwards individually < 1772746234 146258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and all this is combined with a dictionary to handle issues like "English actually has more than 15 different vowel clusters" < 1772746268 513101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this seems difficult to replicate on a game controller but it might be possible to adopt some of the same techniques… < 1772746575 927445 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1772746660 908793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: typing speed records is probably not what you want to go for for programming, because in programming the bottleneck is usually not how fast you can type < 1772746671 187315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: indeed < 1772746701 525645 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but my thoughts were more along the lines of "the same techniques that are used to change normal-speed input methods into super-fast ones may change excessively slow ones into normal speed" < 1772748810 414703 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1772748951 814718 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1772751823 818607 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2466:6319:20fa:c233 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1772753339 139181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alkmini14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177395 5* 03Arctenik 5* (+7501) 10Create article > 1772753502 247371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Alkmini14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177396 5* 03Arctenik 5* (+10008) 10Add compilation notes > 1772753768 334503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177397&oldid=177269 5* 03Arctenik 5* (+14) 10/* A */ Add Alkmini > 1772753849 968627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Arctenik14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177398&oldid=142078 5* 03Arctenik 5* (+14) 10Add Alkmini