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01:37:54 <esolangs> [[Adj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178852&oldid=178811 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified the level for the Interpreter section header.
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02:46:48 <shachaf> "He is also credited with the discovery of Girard's paradox, linear logic, the geometry of interaction, ludics, and (satirically) the mustard watch.[1]"
02:46:58 <shachaf> This sentence reads like tanebventions.
03:11:56 <korvo> Sgeo: I thought about it a little, and I have to ask whether FMA counts as Horner's rule. Like, is FMA enough to evaluate polynomials? Or does it have to include a loop?
03:22:22 <int-e> The original includes a loop: "POLY evaluates a polynomial, given the degree, the argument, and a pointer to a table of coefficients."
03:32:58 <korvo> I suppose the degree is just the length of the table. Or maybe there's something interesting that can be done by passing a smaller degree.
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05:20:20 <ais523> Zymbol-Lang: the best way to write about something that's copyrighted is to write a separate, uncopyrighted summary of how the language works and link to the original
05:21:03 <ais523> (this is also good when writing about a language whose specification is too complicated to fit onto the wiki, e.g. some golfing languages have hundreds of commands, with behaviour complex enough that it's hard to define without reference to source code
05:21:05 <ais523> )
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05:25:52 <zzo38> Sometimes you can write your own document which describes the same thing in a different way (e.g. I have written a public domain document about uxn, although it is not in esolang wiki)
05:56:13 <esolangs> [[.mtcm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178853 * BODOKE2801e * (+433) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=mtcm}} :''Note that it's spelled in lowercase, except usen in start of words'' '''Mtcm''' is a small [[esosteric language]] made by [[User:BODOKE2801e]] designed to be minimalist  ==Syntax==  It has all of commands, are <code>></code>, <code><</code>
05:59:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Yayimhere2(school) *  moved [[.mtcm]] to [[Mtcm]]: Move to correct title(idk why it was not in the first place, since its correct title is mtcm and that is not taken)
06:01:09 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178856&oldid=178854 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-57) remove both notes at the top of the page(first one is no longer needed, second one I have moved to in parenthesis next to the title)
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06:34:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Rimsky.Yamatov *  New user account
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07:35:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178857&oldid=178837 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+117) 
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08:57:45 <esolangs> [[Mango]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178858&oldid=172914 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Commands */
09:35:25 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178859&oldid=178842 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+30) /* Memory */ explain a little clearer
10:21:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178860&oldid=178848 * Zymbol.Lang * (+112) 
10:25:03 <esolangs> [[Functionable]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178861&oldid=178741 * PKMN Trainer * (+363) /* Syntax */
10:27:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178862&oldid=178860 * Zymbol.Lang * (+21) 
10:31:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178863&oldid=178862 * Zymbol.Lang * (+1) 
10:40:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178864&oldid=178863 * Zymbol.Lang * (-6) /* Introductions */
10:43:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178865&oldid=178827 * Zymbol.Lang * (+18) /* Z */
10:43:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178866&oldid=178865 * Zymbol.Lang * (+0) /* Z */
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11:02:46 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178867 * Zymbol.Lang * (+16303) Created page with "{{Infobox proglang |name = Zymbol-Lang |paradigms = [[Imperative]], [[Functional]], [[Procedural]] |author = [[User:Zymbol.Lang]] |year = 2026 |typesystem = [[Dynamic typing|Dynamic]] |memsystem = Automatic (Rust-managed) |class = [[Turing complete]] |reference
11:06:43 <esolangs> [[Functionable]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178868&oldid=178861 * PKMN Trainer * (+510) 
11:07:48 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178869&oldid=178867 * Zymbol.Lang * (+50) 
11:14:43 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178870&oldid=178869 * Zymbol.Lang * (+1) /* Operators Reference */
11:18:31 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178871&oldid=178870 * Zymbol.Lang * (+5) /* External Links */
11:39:38 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178872&oldid=178856 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+48) 
11:39:51 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178873&oldid=178872 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1) 
11:41:12 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is G7$kL9#mQ2&xP4!w
11:41:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is G7$kL9#mQ2&xP4!w
11:41:27 <int-e> (from https://www.irregular.com/publications/vibe-password-generation )
11:43:09 <esolangs> [[Spore]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178874&oldid=178828 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+9) 
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11:54:43 <ais523> the LLM doesn't try to pick a strong password: it tries to pick whatever string looks most like a strong password, and of course there are only a few such strings
11:56:03 <ais523> (at least given the probability distribution it embodies)
11:56:47 <int-e> Oh I remember a joke that went like that... that to be secure, passwords shall satisfy certain criteria and that a team brute forced all the passwords to find that there's just one secure password, which has been distributed to all sysadmins to use for their users.
11:57:08 <int-e> From no later than 2000, I think.
11:58:05 <int-e> ais523: Anyway. I agree that this is not surprising. But it's amusing.
11:59:52 <int-e> (It's not even specific to machines; people aren't great at randomness either. But each individual will have different preferences; we're not all using the same neural network with the same weights. ;-) )
12:02:10 <ais523> at least for passwords that I don't need to memorise, I use an appropriate number of bytes from /dev/random encoded in a way that makes them printable
12:02:29 <ais523> I feel like I may as well randomize between all possible passwords of the correct length and encoding
12:02:36 <ais523> in a way that means there's no human bias involved
12:03:51 <ais523> on one of my email accounts, my email client uses an apparently randomly generated password provided by the email account provider that's over a kilobyte long (I think they reasoned that as it was only being used by computers anyway they may as well make it completely impossible to brute-force, and went a little overbaord)
12:04:17 <int-e> Anyway, I think I'm done with the shapez 2 early access version; https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-insane-fini.jpg is the final form of the hub (with make anything machines) for the time being. ("insane" isn't me; it's the name of the scenario/difficulty)
12:04:50 <int-e> (just in time too; 1.0 is supposed to be releasesd in 3 weeks)
12:06:30 <int-e> at 1kb in size this better include some error correcting code to detect and repair bit errors
12:07:21 <ais523> I don't know how it works technically, but now that you've mentioned it, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an error-correcting code in there somewhere (although of course you need to be careful with those when it comes to passwords)
12:09:34 <int-e> hah, yesterday's xkcd
12:11:15 <int-e> (Hmm. Without JS, I shudder to think what would happen if I switched that on.)
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14:09:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178875&oldid=178504 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+682) /* Add a logo on Vector 2022 */ new section
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14:13:04 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178876&oldid=174823 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-165) /* Basic information  & introduction */
14:13:51 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178877&oldid=178876 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-575) /* Extra information */
14:13:56 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178878&oldid=178877 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-289) /* Miscellaneous */
14:14:04 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178879&oldid=178878 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-40) /* Basic information  & introduction */
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[Manuever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178880&oldid=145856 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+37) 
14:15:38 <esolangs> [[Manuever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178881&oldid=178880 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-107) /* Commands */
14:18:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178882&oldid=174553 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+34) 
14:18:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178883&oldid=178882 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+1) 
14:19:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178884&oldid=178883 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-987) /* Portal */
14:21:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178885&oldid=177824 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+370) /* Genuine question */ new section
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15:47:21 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178886&oldid=178871 * Corbin * (-86) Fix categories and tag as slop.
16:06:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178887&oldid=178885 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+178) /* Genuine question */
16:31:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178888&oldid=148920 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+535) /* List of candidates */
16:31:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178889&oldid=178888 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* List of candidates */
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16:39:26 <Yayimhere> hi! How are you all doing today?
16:42:00 <korvo> I'm alright. Tired of responding to vibecoders.
16:42:50 <Yayimhere> I must say that is a sensible respond
16:42:54 <Yayimhere> *response
16:44:24 <Yayimhere> is there like an easy way to say the pair of characters that have an equal index in two different strings?
16:47:46 <Yayimhere> or I guess thats a way to say it
16:51:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178890&oldid=178857 * Aadenboy * (+422) /* Negative indexed cells? */
16:51:28 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178891&oldid=178859 * Aadenboy * (+1) 
16:58:02 <ais523> Yayimhere: "corresponding positions in the strings", perhaps?
16:58:18 <Yayimhere> ais523: yea that makes sense
16:58:23 <Yayimhere> thanks!
16:59:14 <ais523> it's one of those relationships that comes up sufficiently rarely that it's useful to give an example (but sufficiently often that I vaguely remember having faced the problem of unambiguously describing it before)
17:00:09 <korvo> ais523: I've been practicing for code interviews, so I recognized std::mismatch: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm/mismatch.html But I think "matching of elements from iterators" doesn't quite flow as well.
17:00:21 <Yayimhere> yea
17:04:43 <ais523> it strikes me that LLMs are probably good at coming up with plausible interview questions, because producing plausible-looking things is what they are best at; I don't know whether or not those questions would be good practice for actual interview questions, though
17:05:07 <Yayimhere> hmmm. I think I may have come up with an interesting idea for a language
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17:07:53 <Yayimhere> So, the program is made up of a set of axioms and then an expression
17:08:22 <Yayimhere> and then it kinda multithreads the program by making a program thread with eevery expression that is equal to the original one
17:08:31 <Yayimhere> then this happens to the branches
17:14:02 <ais523> are the axioms specifying which expressions are equal?
17:14:44 <ais523> if so, I think this sort of algorithm is mathematically studied a lot – this is basically "mathematical nondeterminism" in that you are trying all possibilities for your string-rewriting or tree-rewriting
17:15:21 <ais523> parsers are often mathematically formalised like that (although a sensible parser wouldn't actually be implemented like that)
17:15:29 <korvo> ais523: https://github.com/samwho/llmwalk This is vibecoded but the underlying maths is reasonable. I implemented a version of this for exploring prompts on local models.
17:16:06 <korvo> Basically, instead of committing to a single stem during beam search, do a summation over all popular tokens and show the resulting partition down to like 1% likelihood.
17:16:32 <Yayimhere> ais523: yea
17:16:50 <Yayimhere> i hadet heard of that, thanks!
17:17:54 <ais523> I think maybe the mathematical object you want is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_grammar (this inspired the programming language Thue but the key detail, of trying all possibilities in parallel, got lost along the way)
17:17:55 <Yayimhere> *hadn't
17:18:06 <ais523> but the description might be too mathematical to be helpful
17:18:25 <Yayimhere> no I think I get it
17:18:37 <Yayimhere> its not precisely my idea but its pretty close
17:18:52 <ais523> yes
17:19:04 <Yayimhere> the axioms themselves would pretty much be the same as in Fak: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fak
17:19:09 <Yayimhere> which has brackets builtin
17:19:14 <ais523> your idea likely also uses mathematical nondeterminism but in a different way
17:19:22 <Yayimhere> yea
17:20:04 <ais523> anyway, will be /away for a bit to get food (and will be busy later)
17:20:12 <Yayimhere> perhaps having symbols affect some other expression, that then also branches and the becomes the memory expression of the one it branched "onto"
17:20:15 <Yayimhere> Bye!
17:25:28 <korvo> Yayimhere: The general idea of proof search is very old. Gödel, who showed that it's not computable to write a proof in general, also imagined that it would be very expensive to search for a proof. I think that you can imagine why; we call it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branching_factor
17:26:12 <korvo> This is where P vs NP comes from, at least to me. A P machine can verify a proof. To do that, it starts at the axioms, applies each step of the proof, and checks whether the final result is equal to the desired theorem.
17:26:52 <korvo> BTW, in a modern string-rewriter like Metamath, that check is literal string equality. Like, "x, y" != "y, x" or "lambda x: x" != "lambda y: y". Every variable has to match exactly.
17:27:32 <korvo> So, an NP machine could search for a proof. To do that, it starts at the axioms, *nondeterministically* applies each step of the proof, and *nondeterministically* checks whether the current step is equal to the desired theorem.
17:28:12 <korvo> But, do NP machines exist? And after nearly a century, our current hunch is P != NP. Moreover, we think that physics won't give us an NP machine.
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17:45:37 <somefan> hello
17:45:55 <Yayimhere49> Hello somefan
17:46:34 <korvo> Morning.
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17:52:23 <Yayimhere49> hmm. Now, ive come up with another(quite simple) idea
17:52:39 <Yayimhere49> like, multiple terminals? Where code is located to specific terminals
17:52:54 <Yayimhere49> so like you have one section of the program that only reads one of them
17:53:03 <Yayimhere49> and another reading and writing to another
17:53:11 <Yayimhere49> *Reads and writes
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17:54:55 <korvo> Sure. That's basically the Internet.
17:55:10 <Yayimhere49> true
17:55:21 <Yayimhere49> somehow I hadn't thought of that before
17:56:20 <Yayimhere49> maybe when a section of code leaves a specific console and another enters, the output of thee last is read as input for the new
17:59:30 <b_jonas> int-e: re shapez preview, how many different shapes is that trying to deliver to the hub at the same type?
17:59:31 <fizzie> I have a Perl script for fungot models where you give it the initial context, and then it generates N sample responses for the same context, but it doesn't do that thing of trying to find the N most likely responses, that looks more interesting.
17:59:32 <fungot> fizzie: i think it will make that nicer
17:59:59 <fizzie> fungot: I agree, but on the other hand is it really worth doing?
17:59:59 <fungot> fizzie: heh scoping in assignation and blocks here
18:08:49 <esolangs> [[Bad Apple In Deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178892 * Win7HE * (+587) the entire code.
18:09:10 <Yayimhere49> Great
18:09:17 <ais523> Yayimhere49: my very first esolang, which I never released (or even fully specified) because it was so bad, was dataflow-based: parts of a program could only act on data immediately next to them
18:09:35 <esolangs> [[Bad Apple In Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178893&oldid=178892 * Win7HE * (+9) /* Changes */
18:09:38 <Yayimhere49> ais523: huh, cool
18:09:39 <ais523> and would output data next to them ,too
18:09:40 <b_jonas> is that like brainfuck?
18:09:48 <ais523> no, in BF the data is on the tape
18:09:57 <ais523> in this, the data was effectively in the same grid as the source code
18:10:08 <Yayimhere49> aaahh
18:10:15 <Yayimhere49> yea that makes sense
18:10:22 <ais523> this is an interesting idea if you have it working in a massively-parallel way, like a cellular automaton
18:10:28 <Yayimhere49> I would love to see it done properly but I dont think I'd be able to do it
18:10:43 <ais523> but I didn't (due to lack of experience), it had an instruction pointer
18:10:52 <ais523> which is more or less just a waste of a good idea
18:11:18 <ais523> (that said, the cellular-automaton approach has been thoroughly explored now using actual 2D cellular automata – the Game of Life is the most studied)
18:11:45 <Yayimhere49> yea
18:12:41 <ais523> I was interested in the "wire-crossing problem" which a lot of early esolangers were already interested in, but in the end I concluded that the problem was likely badly defined and very hard to make rigorous in a way that made the problem actually interesting
18:13:09 <Yayimhere49> yea
18:13:09 <ais523> like, nobody could precisely define what the problem actually was
18:14:06 <Yayimhere49> yea, when I came across is(which, perhaps surprisingly I didnt before quite late into making esolangs) I was confused on how the definitions actuall wroekd out
18:14:34 <ais523> the details of the language I remember are that each command was a 2×2 square of characters and the commands were placed onto a hex grid – I don't think I got as far as working out what the commands actually were
18:14:58 <ais523> although I think the IP didn't have a direction, just a position, and each command was responsible for moving it in the correct direction (that is probably what one of the characters in the square was going to be)
18:16:22 <ais523> nowadays my esolangs often don't have explicit commands at all (and when they do it's often because I'm intentionally trying to leave a gap in the set of things they can collectively accomplish)
18:16:51 <Yayimhere49> yea true, I hadn't really thought of that
18:18:09 <ais523> sometimes I am surprised at how relatively simple https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos is, given how precisely targeted the computational class is
18:18:41 <Yayimhere49> I should propably read and understand feed the chaos at some point, I just haven't gotten to it lol
18:19:06 <Yayimhere49> I did once have the idea of trying to create a language that is string based, but equivalent to Feed the chaos
18:19:41 <ais523> it seems to be a surprisingly common computational class, given that (as far as I know) it was only discovered a few years ago
18:19:52 <Yayimhere49> oh huh
18:20:45 <b_jonas> as for simple, I was just thinking that one of the reasons why Rubik's cube is such a great puzzle is that it feels nicely canonical. and also that there aren't too many popular puzzles like that. there's the puzzle to pack the 12 pentominos into a rectangle.
18:21:22 <ais523> b_jonas: I have mixed feelings about that pentomino puzzle – a puzzle collection I own had that puzzle but with all possible sizes of rectangle
18:21:27 <ais523> and it was frustrating
18:21:35 <ais523> I think I solved all or at least most of them eventually
18:21:58 <ais523> * all possible shapes of rectangle, they are of course all the same size if you measure the area
18:22:02 <b_jonas> ais523: oh certainly, the narrow ones are way too frustrating, but 6×10 isn't
18:22:29 <b_jonas> 3×20 has very few solutions, 2 IIRC
18:22:41 <ais523> I kind-of liked 3×20 because it's an exercise in eliminating possibilities and logical deduction
18:23:01 <ais523> I can't remember whether I ever actually found a solution
18:23:20 <ais523> but there is a lot of logic you can use to prove that certain pieces have to go in certain places, or at least rule it down to few possibilities
18:24:23 <b_jonas> ais523: did you get any development on the gamepad English text typing schemes since last time?
18:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: yes mentally but I didn't write any of it down
18:24:53 <ais523> my plan was to use the back shoulder buttons/triggers as shift (on the left) and number (on the right)
18:25:33 <ais523> and then I assigned all of ASCII, plus a few more punctuation marks like ×, ÷, minus sign, dash, to the resulting maps
18:26:13 <ais523> also I decided to split the right shoulder + face buttons chords (which produce common punctuation marks) based on which you pressed first, to get 16 possibilities rather than 8
18:26:34 <b_jonas> I see
18:26:42 <ais523> (for diagonals, choosing which orthogonal direction is pressed first is frustrating, but for space+vowel pairs, which are diagonal-like, it's trivial)
18:26:45 <b_jonas> did you figure out how number mode should work?
18:27:19 <ais523> D-pad is 1 at the top clockwise to 8 at the top left; 0 is top face button, 9 is top-left face button pair
18:28:27 <ais523> and then the rest of the face buttons are punctuation, clockwise from 0 it's = + × . ÷ −
18:28:39 <ais523> (sorry for the delay, took me a while to find the minus sign as it isn't on my keyboard)
18:30:01 <ais523> one good thing about this is that a) you can use it as the input method for a simple calculator, b) you can do obvious substitutions to use it as a means of typing phone numbers (# for =, * for ×, a hyphen-minus rather than a minus, and + can appear in phone numbers too)
18:31:25 <ais523> now, the great thing about this is that if you hold shift + number, you get punctuation marks and those can basically match those on a qwerty keyboard
18:32:00 <ais523> @ where 2 appears, # for 3, $ for 4, % for 5, ^ for 6, & for 7, * for 8
18:32:17 <ais523> 1 is an exception (because ! is already on the basic punctuation wheel), I think shift-1 is ~ in my scheme
18:33:08 <ais523> shift+number+face buttons does brackets ()[]{}<>
18:34:23 <Yayimhere49> bye!
18:34:27 <ais523> and doing space + face button in that order (rather than face button + space) gives you (from the right clockwise) _\|/–`"' which is extremely easy to remember as they all point to the middle of the wheel
18:34:29 <ais523> bye Yayimhere49
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18:35:28 <ais523> I think this is the whole of ASCII – if there's a character I've missed, it goes where / was on the paste I linked earlier (because / is now on space+button rather than button+space)
18:36:20 <ais523> nope, just checked my keyboard and it's all there
18:37:11 <ais523> anyway, I haven't implemented this and I haven't tested it out on an actual controller yet either
18:37:45 <b_jonas> I see
18:37:49 <ais523> I was also considering having a press of shift on its own be caps lock, likewise a press of numshift on its own be numlock, but am not sure I like that
18:38:12 <ais523> almost all modern controllers have the back triggers as pressure-sensitive so it might depend on how hard you press them
18:38:44 <ais523> (amazingly, you can actually read even that information from a web page)
18:40:26 <ais523> some controllers went overboard and had all the buttons pressure-sensitive, but it is specifically the back triggers on the current consensus controller design (and they are normally designed to have a big travel range and to let you feel how much pressure you're applying, unlike the other button-like controls)
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18:41:10 <aadenboy> morning!
18:41:17 <b_jonas> hold on, I think you haven't defined what the 16 combinations of space with vowel stick gives
18:41:37 <ais523> morning aadenboy (although it's actually evening for me)
18:41:56 <aadenboy> well good evening to you then
18:43:25 <b_jonas> oh I see, that's what gives slash and backslash
18:43:35 <ais523> b_jonas: _\|/–`"' if you press space first, and the punctuation from before (?;.,-/!:) if you press the vowel first
18:43:45 <ais523> although I was planning to replace / with something else
18:44:05 <ais523> could easily be a non-ASCII character, maybe it should be a compose key?
18:44:52 <ais523> the vowel-first /, that is, not the one that's in a nicely symmetrical location
18:46:56 <ais523> I wanted a compose key as it's one of the most mnemonic possible ways to extend the character repertoire
18:49:33 <fizzie> On regular keyboards, I always bind the menu key as the compose key, and it's annoying to me how many smaller form-factor keyboards (including laptops) just omit that key, possibly to fit in a `fn` key that's hardwaristically wired (well, probably firmwaristically in practice, but still) and therefore impossible to use for other purposes.
18:49:57 <ais523> fizzie: on this laptop, it's on fn + right ctrl
18:50:29 <ais523> I have bought a new laptop but haven't really started using it yet, that one has multiple questionable keys on the keyboard, but the right ctrl key is replaced by a Copilot key (and menu is Fn+Copilot)
18:50:52 <ais523> this seems obviously less useful than a ctrl key, but I think Microsoft must have substantially subsidised the price with the advertising
18:51:05 <fizzie> I'm using altgr + the (single, left) windows key for compose on this laptop, which is not incredibly convenient to press.
18:51:14 <ais523> (Ubuntu 24.04 is apparently unable to see the key at all)
18:51:20 <fizzie> But that's a good point, I should see if fn + some other key is perhaps a menu key.
18:51:24 <ais523> I use caps lock as control on this layout
18:51:32 <ais523> (and shift-shift as caps lock)
18:51:37 <ais523> * caps lock as compose
18:51:55 <ais523> bad typo, because caps lock as control is a reasonable configuration that is common among Emacs users, it just isn't mine
18:52:20 <ais523> I do end up typoing shift-shift occasionally, so maybe caps lock should be something that's harder to press, but it works most of the time
18:52:39 <ais523> that said, the default binding for compose used to be shift-altgr and yet that doesn't seem to work nowadays – I wonder what changed?
18:53:59 <b_jonas> that sounds like those television remotes with a youtube and a disney button
18:54:15 <fizzie> My current keyboard has two keys labeled "esc" (a black one and a red one), because it came with a rather limited set of keycaps, and the red esc is the closest I could think of for the pause/break key (which I use as a shortcut for locking the screen, something you do when you need a break).
18:55:04 <fizzie> Chromebooks used to, and maybe still do, have an Assistant key. Maybe it's a Gemini key now? 
18:55:20 <b_jonas> I bound the caps-lock+tab keys to caps lock at one point
18:55:20 <ais523> b_jonas: I was concerned at first until I realised it was just a keyboard button (not sure what sequence it sends), the Microsoft documentation says that if you don't have Copilot set up it opens Bing
18:55:48 <ais523> b_jonas: heh, that also seems somewhat easy to typo, although it'd be a different nature of typo than the one that produces shift-shift
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18:56:31 <ais523> I use Ubuntu's default of Ctrl-Alt-L as a screen lock sequence (although thinking about it, it's weird that it doesn't start with Super, given that it's a global shortcut)
18:57:04 <fizzie> Surveying three Chromebook models, two do appear to have a "G" key (with the Google G logo), which I imagine _must_ do something Gemini-related now (by default).
18:57:32 <ais523> the really weird thing about the new laptop is that it appears to have a "snipping tool" button (which is Windows's built-in screenshot program) in addition to PrtSc, and pressing it appears to send a chord rather than being programmed as a separate key
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18:58:14 <ais523> I would have preferred home/end/pgup/pgdn buttons, which it doesn't really have (although they are as usual available on the numpad if you turn numlock off)
18:59:58 <fizzie> This keyboard's keycap set included one key that has, like, a square with a diagonal through it, and two small crosses at the other two corners, which I'm using as a PrtSc key, because it kind of looks like a rectangle selection tool, but I don't know if that's the intended meaning or not.
19:00:02 <ais523> korvo: so in the rules of Yugioh, you can sort-of activate two trap cards at once, but have to give the opponent a chance to do something in between (and the action they take might stop the second one activating)
19:00:33 <ais523> but after activating one, if they do nothing, you can activate the second and then they will both resolve together (in the reverse of the order you activated them, but nothing can happen in between)
19:01:21 <ais523> fizzie: that's very similar to the snipping tool button on my new laptop's keyboard (which doesn't have the diagonal, it's a square with a cross at the top-left and bottom-right corner)
19:01:36 <ais523> or, more of a rectangle actually, but close to square
19:03:05 <fizzie> Internet seems to suggest it is indeed the Keychron standard screenshot symbol.
19:14:03 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178894&oldid=178138 * Placeholding * (+42) 
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20:42:29 <korvo> Yeah, my post title was a deliberate joke about how it's not possible to actually activate two trap cards in a single motion. Like hitting two birds with one stone, to use an earlier snowclone.
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21:51:17 <fizzie> We've been told we now have to say "feeding two birds with one cone", for sensitivity reasons.
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