00:47:42 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement). 01:41:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:05:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:43:05 In RISC-V specification, in https://docs.riscv.org/reference/isa/unpriv/zihintntl.html table 1 seems to be missing size bounds. What is that table supposed to be saying? This problem is present in both the HTML and PDF versions of the manual. 03:56:50 b_jonas: Oh, great. This used to be a .tex file: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/blob/cd9764fde9c704fb63e519eb7774e224835ee5f8/src/zihintntl.tex#L68-L84 03:58:14 (the next commit removes the .tex file; you can see the .adoc version right beside it and it's missing the numbers) 04:29:39 I had thought, if the graphics card that I had described would be made, although 3D graphics is not one of the features I had considered important, I would consider video playback to be one; you might want to play two videos at once for the purpose of comparison but I think not more than two at once would be needed. 04:30:19 When doing video playback, I had considered that the low 4-bits of each channel can be used for opacity so that you can overlay translucent captions on the video. 05:03:08 goodnight 05:03:11 -!- aadenboy has quit (Quit: goodbye for now! back another day). 05:48:10 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 05:48:18 hi 05:53:35 [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178956&oldid=172459 * MihaiEso * (+24) /* My targets */ 06:04:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 06:14:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:25:29 [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178957&oldid=178486 * Esolang lover123 * (+129) fixed some stuff 06:39:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:00:28 -!- tromp has joined. 08:04:43 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 08:14:10 -!- tromp has joined. 08:26:54 [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+405) Created page with "this is a notation for infinities, which I think can reach pretty dang high in the hierarchy of infinities: * E[0](x,y) = y * E[1](x,y) = x + y * yJ[z](x) = E[z](x,y) * E[n+1](x,y) = [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eliloulou10 * New user account 08:36:24 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178959&oldid=178953 * Eliloulou10 * (+240) 08:44:51 [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178960&oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-34) 08:47:16 [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178961&oldid=178960 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+87) 08:49:54 [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178962&oldid=178961 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+39) 08:57:37 [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178963&oldid=178962 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53) 09:00:15 [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178964&oldid=178957 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-14) better formatting 09:00:27 [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178965&oldid=178964 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+5) 09:01:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:05:05 [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178966&oldid=178965 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+54) /* Implementations */ 09:05:47 [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178967&oldid=178401 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+2) /* Cat program */ 09:08:07 [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178968&oldid=178967 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+140) 09:10:51 [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178969&oldid=178410 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+447) forgot one esolang 09:11:09 [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178970&oldid=178952 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+52) 09:27:17 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:33:39 [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178971&oldid=178968 * PrySigneToFry * (+79) 09:42:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 09:42:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:57:32 [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178972&oldid=178288 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-182) /* ppl i like and dont like */ 10:03:26 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 10:03:30 hi! 10:03:33 (again) 10:11:52 hi 10:14:22 -!- dragoneater67 has quit (Quit: dragoneater67). 10:14:39 -!- dragoneater67 has joined. 10:14:45 i accidentally left lol 10:14:48 [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178973&oldid=178966 * Esolang lover123 * (+405) 10:15:32 [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178974&oldid=178973 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* */ grrr where spaces 10:19:06 hi dragoneater67! 10:19:09 hru? 10:19:53 gud 10:20:07 nice. Me too 10:20:20 also, whats that {{User's path|username=User:Yayimhere}} thing on your userpage for? 10:20:36 oh thats kinda a meme of sorts 10:20:44 cool 10:20:49 also, may I give you a challenge? 10:20:51 lol 10:21:03 yea 10:21:08 im bored rn 10:21:32 solve https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day 10:21:44 (and feeel free. to ask any questions while trying) 10:23:03 [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178975&oldid=178974 * Esolang lover123 * (+72) 10:23:10 ok 10:23:28 cool 11:08:25 -!- SGautam has joined. 11:42:31 [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178976&oldid=178703 * Dragoneater67 * (+151) 11:51:42 [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178977&oldid=178976 * Dragoneater67 * (+21) whynot 11:52:18 dragoneatter67 thats not used for user pages, its used for like moderately famous people in our community 12:10:30 [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178978&oldid=178977 * Dragoneater67 * (-21) 12:10:38 ok i removed it 12:10:45 cool 12:12:57 ive come to conclusion that first 2 properties are trivially cheesed 12:13:13 cheesed? 12:13:14 just have a command called MIAU that prints MIAU 12:13:36 yea, but then MIAUMIAU would also be a quine 12:14:00 just make MIAU halt 12:14:12 MIAU prints MIAU then halts 12:14:41 that works! you cant have any other printing though 12:14:59 ya still have to fix the narcissist thing 12:15:05 I haven't heard the word "cheesing" applied to esolangs before, but I like it – it fits very well, analogous with the same context in computer games 12:15:18 hi 12:15:33 and the looping counter... 12:15:35 ais523: true 12:16:24 my general idea is that since arbitrary i/o is not neccessary, so i can just restrict it enough to fit very specific usecases 12:16:34 yea 12:20:53 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178979&oldid=178219 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-31) 12:23:33 int-e: thank you 12:28:25 btw dragoneater67, I think the narrcicist thing cna be done by making the input command always do narrcicist stuff 12:35:14 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 12:52:27 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account 13:01:43 [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178980&oldid=178978 * Dragoneater67 * (+19) 13:03:19 [[User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178981&oldid=176044 * Dragoneater67 * (-7727) this should look like i sent an irc message on some clients! 13:04:41 ok it did NOT work 13:05:14 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178982&oldid=178959 * * (+115) /* Introductions */ 13:06:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 13:17:52 -!- SGautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:23:44 [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178983&oldid=178846 * Dulph * (+80) 13:26:02 what does "every FWOTD command given as input to another FWOTD command could be replaced by a third FWOTD command" mean? 13:26:31 [[2D-Reversable/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178984&oldid=178818 * Dulph * (+128) 13:26:37 it practically implies commands can be applied like functions to other commands 13:27:07 and those are always rewritable as another command in the set 13:27:24 (note that it says this doesnt apply to commands that are created using this process) 13:27:32 [[2D-Reversable 2/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178985&oldid=178825 * Dulph * (+128) 13:28:23 [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178986&oldid=178847 * Dulph * (+124) 13:28:52 [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178987&oldid=178983 * Dulph * (+44) 13:29:14 [[Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178988&oldid=178815 * Dulph * (+124) 13:29:30 b_jonas: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/pull/2821 (do you want and credit there?) 13:29:40 *any 13:37:36 int-e: yes thank you 13:40:07 int-e: wait, there's a typo in your patch, it now says "greater 1 MiB than" instead of "greater than 1 MiB" 13:41:07 b_jonas: so how do I credit you in a github context :P 13:41:18 without referring to this place 13:42:51 https://github.com/b-jonas0 13:43:49 progress report: i covered rules 1, 3, 4, 6 13:44:06 damn! 13:45:23 great job 13:48:42 b_jonas: Fixed, thanks. Also mentioned you. 13:48:59 b_jonas: However, also decided I can't be arsed to make it more than a draft. 13:50:50 (Also, ridiculously, they want signed commits. But they don't sign their own stuff.) 13:56:46 rule 2 is also covered now 14:00:33 nice 14:05:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:07:06 does rule 5 mean that FWOTD can only execute the input ONLY if it equals its own source code? 14:08:55 Oh I guess signing commits is easy enough to do even though I do not see the point. 14:09:32 dragoneatter67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check 14:10:19 -!- amby has joined. 14:11:21 Question. Does the following Thue-like string replacement esolang have a name? The program has a starting string state and an infinitely looping sequence of fixed substring search and replaces. The instructions are executed in sequence, they always find the first match in the state string and replace just that one match, and if no match is found you get undefined behavior. This means the length of the 14:11:27 state will always grow by a constant in each loop iteration, and you effectively program this by having an instruction that appends trailing junk to the string to ensure that the other instructions always match. 14:11:59 [[Tetrahedron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178989&oldid=177700 * Cleverxia * (+54) yes, children, I'm back 14:12:07 b_jonas: there are lots of esolangs that do that sort of thing but I don't think I've ever seen that exact combination 14:12:09 I guess that's kind of a boring wasteful subset of 1.1 14:12:59 it isn't a refinement of Thupit due to the "every rule must always match at the point where it appears" 14:13:03 in fact I'm not even sure it's TC 14:13:25 if you already know the search string will be there exactly once, how do you do a conditional? 14:14:04 ais523: the trailing part of the string state will be junk, so your instructions match there if the conditional should skip 14:14:34 b_jonas: oh, first match 14:14:42 for some reason I thought the requirement was to have exactly one match rather than at least one 14:17:11 int-e: re https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-insane-fini.jpg , how many different shapes is this trying to deliver to the hub at the same time? 14:18:20 dragoneater67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check (I resent this since I think I dont think you saw it cuz it didnt tag properly 14:18:21 b_jonas: 2 14:18:34 [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178990&oldid=178946 * Cleverxia * (+609) 14:19:08 b_jonas: the game has 2 randomized shapes, one without crystals and one with crystals. So you get two different MAMs. I have two copies of each. 14:20:07 Also in this particular scenario, shapes have 5 slices instead of 4. 14:23:30 (so each MAM has 5 stages) 14:23:31 int-e: I thought there were 5 infinite series of randomized shapes, at least in the hardest mode 14:23:59 I must have misunderstood something 14:24:13 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178991 * Cleverxia * (+116) Created page with "If i'm not getting it wrong, it gets up to (1,1,1) ~~~" 14:25:50 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178992&oldid=178991 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+248) 14:26:34 Hmm. No, it has 2 more fixed operator shapes than the other scenarios: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700i.jpg ("insane") vs. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700.jpg ("regular") and https://shapez2.wiki.gg/wiki/Operator_Level#Requirements for the other two scenarios 14:31:11 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178993&oldid=178992 * Cleverxia * (+322) 14:32:03 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178994&oldid=178993 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+176) 14:37:46 b_jonas: The only use of the number 5 that I can think of is the increased number of slices. 14:37:56 I guess it's not really important :) 14:41:07 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178995&oldid=178994 * Cleverxia * (+49) 14:45:26 [[Rizzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178996&oldid=165866 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (-1) bro wth was that \ doin 14:47:30 [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178997&oldid=178995 * Dragoneater67 * (+43) sign ur comments cleverxia 14:49:22 [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178998&oldid=178990 * Dragoneater67 * (-25) the esolang no longer exists 14:49:55 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:54:30 b_jonas: Oh on the off chance that you're wondering: there's no reason for the train terminals (to the far left and far right) to be flat like that; I could use 3 floors and fit them into 2 rows instead of 5. Which I'd do if I were serious about scaling things up further. 14:55:42 (There *was* a reason: I used the same layout for an ad-hoc space where I made one-off factories. And it's *much* easier to do routing when you have some extra space. Also easier to remember what shape is delivered where.) 15:06:57 [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+2055) the "i'm getting too lazy" language 15:07:29 [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179000&oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+4) formatting gone wrong 15:12:23 [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179001&oldid=179000 * Cleverxia * (+15) 15:13:03 dragoneater67, Yayimhere: I think FWoTD can't be defined. In particular, I'm not sure how to restrict the diagonal lemma in a Turing-complete setting so that it only generates one quine. 15:14:27 korvo hmmm. i hadn't thought of that. though there is not a restriction of "free output" here, so I dont know 15:14:59 Yayimhere: Are you familiar with the idea that a program in a TC system can access its own source code? 15:15:20 korvo: no I had no heard that before 15:15:27 *not 15:15:33 What we actually mean is that, for any program in a TC system, there's an equivalent program which has access to a copy of its source code. It doesn't literally read its own memory. 15:15:52 yea that makes sense 15:15:55 huh 15:16:07 well FWoTD doesnt remove all Quines, just one NON rotary one 15:16:28 So if you have the ability to express Python-like lambdas, `lambda x: f(x)`, then there's always going to be the ability to augment that into `lambda x, source: print(source) or f(x)` 15:16:49 we can just restrict output, right? 15:17:12 dragoneater67: But then is it still TC? 15:17:23 maybe 15:17:36 many languages w/o io are still tc 15:17:44 like if you can only output a single character 15:18:12 like, minsky machine, with the command `E` which prints E. and then no other I/O 15:18:20 or no other O atleast 15:18:21 Well, then what are you computing? Systems without I/O can only be TC in the sense that it's not decidable whether they halt; in order to talk about arbitrary effects, we do need to talk about the state of the system, including internal state. 15:20:00 in the case of `E` here, it could perhaps also replace every instance after it with increment of register 1, ju8st for example 15:20:24 but again, FWoTD does allow rotary quines 15:20:51 i dont understand how restricted i/o could hurt turing completeness 15:21:44 Well, TC-ness is about being able to emit any computable sequence of symbols. It's inherently about output. 15:22:04 (It's inherently about not halting, but Turing defined halting in terms of emitting symbols. See [[computable]] for details.) 15:23:42 hm... 15:23:55 I wonder what issues is with my construct above 15:24:26 if in brainfuck, . and , output into hidden append-only log, and theres an additional command called ? that just prints ?, is it turing-incomplete? 15:25:05 then you just look in the append only log I assume 15:25:11 its hidden 15:25:19 like the hidden accumulator in HQ9+ 15:25:30 then does it really count as output? 15:25:46 no it isnt 15:26:00 but it emits symbols! 15:26:07 dragoneater67: The inner behavior is still TC when we take that log into account. Your design is almost exactly like Turing's. 15:26:18 yea I was about to say 15:26:32 so we can have turing completeness with restricted i/o??? 15:27:01 dragoneater67: I think that you should pause for a moment. What does TC mean? 15:28:00 a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape, or anything reducable to a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape 15:28:03 Maybe I shouldn't be Socratic. A TC system can encode any Turing machine, right? So that means that, for any Turing machine, the TC system has a program which faithfully emulates that machine. 15:29:16 Don't worry about reducing your system to Turing machines. Either your system is computable, in which case it's reducible, or it's not computable. Computability is more important. 15:29:30 yea 15:30:43 "faithful" is vague here, isn't it. (The definitions I'm familiar with care about acceptance, rejection, or possibly just about termination vs. non-termination) 15:30:57 So, for BF that only prints ?, there's still TC questions. The analogue of (Beeping) Busy Beaver is here: for a fixed size of programs, what's the largest program that prints finitely many ? There's also circular Halting: for a fixed program, how many ? does it print? 15:32:32 int-e: I'm using it in the category-theoretic sense of "faithful functor", a categorified embedding. But yeah, we aren't actually putting in the work. Turing showed that acceptance and rejection can encapsulate all other questions of computability, and I guess we've been using that shortcut ever since. 15:32:43 ("faithful" might imply a much more finely grained correspondance where you have to be able to effectively identify tapes, states, and execution steps) 15:33:46 i think that we can encode the tape into a large unary number, then output it using the ? instruction 15:34:00 dragoneater67: I suppose that the insight I'm getting at is: either you're TC, so you can emit any computable sequence including sequences which code for the current program (quines), or you're not TC. 15:34:38 but then, what about the quineless thing that was talked about on sjmg(I think)'s talk page 15:35:08 i just realized that this also implies that we can encode the program's source code into a large unary prime and output it 15:35:31 which would be called a "pseudoquine" 15:35:36 i think 15:36:03 Hofstadter would say that it's still a self-rep. I don't know if he used the word "pseudoquine" but I could check. 15:36:10 korvo: You realize that saying "in the category-theoretic sense" raises more questions than it answers ;-) (Apart from the extra level of obfuscation (subjective), it really doesn't say wht observables of TMs you care about, which was the point I was trying to make.) 15:36:12 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179002&oldid=178979 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+63) /* Properties */ 15:36:21 korvo: I would say "encode" rather than "emit" – languages can be TC without having any reasonable form of output 15:36:43 I changed the definition for it to be a little more precise of the type of quine 15:36:57 but they have to be able to somehow internally represent any structure, which can be used as an output substitute but might be hard to decode 15:37:19 int-e: Oh, sorry. In category theory, we can only identify up to isomorphism; if two TMs have isomorphic behavior then they might as well be a single object. I don't really care about which notion of isomorphism we're using though; it can be uncomputable. 15:37:31 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179003&oldid=179002 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+27) /* Properties */ 15:37:52 specifically to standard terminal out, not in program mmemory 15:38:09 ais523: Right, we have to be able to slice open the egg and see what was developing. And the insides cannot be too organized or else they can be interpreted like syntax, defeating Rice's theorem. 15:38:24 korvo: You're still making the observables implicit! 15:38:41 Anyway, I'll relent. 15:39:05 this was what I'd call an interesting conversation 15:39:12 int-e: It's all good. I think that your question's well-motivated. But isn't a TM just a set-theoretic object? Like, isn't it a tuple? 15:40:51 ...Sorry, I realize that I'm just making you invent the observables that you care about. I think we can care about Turing's observables for now. The issue is then, well, what of I/O? Turing was talking about emitting initial segments of computable binary sequences. 15:41:15 Yayimhere: What do you think about the diagonal lemma? 15:42:04 A TM can be seen through many lenses: 1) A typle of states and symboles and transitions etc. 2) A function from starting configuration to execution traces (streams of configurations) 2) Partial functions from initial configuration (or some import encoding it) to a final configuration (or decoded output) 3) same, but specifically only look at whether the final state is an accepting state or not. 15:42:39 This doesn't change just because you're using category theory. 15:42:46 korvo: i have not heard of it, but I will look it up 15:42:55 Except that 1) would become very awkard :P 15:44:10 the idea i always had about TMs is that arbitrary i/o is unneccessary if everything can be encoded in the program's internal state 15:44:11 Yep. We do get another lens, though: 4) a computational universe or Turing category: a category with N where every object can be encoded and decoded into N. It's similar to (2) but arrows are computable rather than partial; instead of getting stuck they can "run" forever. 15:45:12 s/import/input/ 15:45:23 (in what I wrote) 15:47:38 korvo: That helps flesh out the picture. 15:48:06 (My list could never have been exhaustive, of course.) 15:48:30 int-e: Here's a taste of the power of (4). In a computable universe, for any object C, there's a total isomorphism N → C; this is the coding of C in N. Also the universe is Cartesian closed. So there's a total isomorphism N → [N, N]. 15:49:13 Yeah I can map that back to what I know about recursive and partial recursive functions. 15:49:14 but, korvo, do you think my definition of a quine works better now? 15:49:26 :P 15:49:56 An object Y has the fixed-point property when for all t : Y → Y there exists y : Y s.t. t(y) = y; that is, all endomorphisms on Y have fixed points. Then, because isomorphisms are surjections, the code N → [N, N] has the fixed-point property. That's Kleene's second recursion theorem, also called Rogers' fixed point, and it is usually way nastier to prove. 15:50:47 (Tangentially... maybe I should configure my client to ask for confirmation whenever I type ":P". I wonder whether it can even do that.) 15:51:24 Yayimhere: Not really. I think that you haven't quite approached what I mentioned earlier: the diagonal lemma in a TC system makes it so that any program can have a copy of its own source code, so it's hard to imagine a TC system that forbids quines. (If there were no quines then we could add exactly one quine, as you know.) 15:52:12 korvo: hm 15:55:01 It's okay to not have a solution for this. It's also okay to come up with something extremely clever which I don't accept at first. I do think that this is a good example of why we can't ignore complexity theory when designing languages. 15:55:15 yea true 15:55:41 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179004&oldid=179003 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25) 15:55:50 (It's also an excellent example of why we should implement languages as we design them. If you had a private Python script implementing a solution then you could at least test the attempts that people make.) 15:56:09 yea 15:57:26 at this point I am still a little confused on how, even if it is allowed for the program to be in memory, just not the terminal, it still is impossible 15:57:50 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179005&oldid=179004 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-28) /* Properties */ 15:58:08 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179006&oldid=179005 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */ 15:59:17 Yayimhere: I don't want to just quote myself, but I think I put it well on [[self-reproducing object]]. "Specifically, for any legal syntax fragment Q which is open on a single variable, there is a closed fragment Q("Q") which applies that fragment to its own quotation. Applying the diagonal lemma in this fashion is called quining." 16:00:10 open on a single variable? 16:00:16 So you have to attack one of those premises: either it's not legal to have open programs somehow (hard!) or quotation somehow can't quote all programs (harder!) 16:00:40 Like, the difference between `lambda x: 42` and `(lambda x: 42)(5)`. The former is open and the latter is closed. 16:00:56 ...No, wait, that's wrong. Sorry. 16:01:06 thats fine 16:01:09 The difference between `x` and `lambda x: x`. The former is open and the latter is closed. 16:01:19 Sorry, I'm clearly still asleep. 16:01:31 imma leave for a bit, bye! 16:01:44 ...No, that's wrong too. Fuck. I should eat breakfast. 16:02:20 oh wow you haven't? damn. yea, dont let me be a distraction from eating 16:02:44 that was correct? 16:03:12 x is open (has a free variable). \x. x is closed (has no free variables) 16:03:37 aaah 16:04:00 anyways, I removed the Turing Complete requirement 16:05:08 (it is hard to ensure while designing anyway) 16:06:20 I had an apple. 16:07:21 Yayimhere: Yes. What I think you'll eventually find is that TC-ness is a natural barrier which happens to occur in lots of little systems when we apply them to the real world. Design your systems to solve real problems, numerical problems, geometric problems, combinatorial problems, and you'll find TC behavior. 16:07:36 yea 16:08:53 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179007&oldid=179006 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */ 16:09:22 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179008&oldid=179007 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Properties */ 16:10:03 [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179009&oldid=179008 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* Properties */ 16:11:06 int-e: Trust no one, not even me. >:3 16:14:19 korvo: you had such a nutricious breakfast 16:15:09 dragoneater67: Yes! And the evil witch who brought it to me was so nice. She was cackling the entire time and saying that it would change my life! 16:15:59 korvo: Eh, I'm no stranger to the compounding effect of confusion. 16:16:37 (Get one thing wrong, doubt everything.) 16:16:44 int-e: If I'm wrong the first time, I'm probably still wrong the second time. Like, that's a track record of proven performance. 16:16:54 ie i'e Exactly. 16:17:29 the gamer term is tilting :) 16:34:49 -!- aadenboy has joined. 16:34:53 morning 16:35:07 mornin' aadenboy 16:35:10 hru? 16:35:18 I'm good! 16:35:26 showered earlier 16:35:36 nice 16:35:58 me myself have set dragon eater upon a task, and have been doing nothing but giving directions(and observing) 16:36:02 lol 16:36:15 or I guess that is before the little discussion we had above 16:36:47 lol 16:36:58 in fact 16:37:49 I saw you Mhm! language, I like it 16:37:55 though it still slightly confuses me 16:37:59 confuzzles even 16:38:05 lol 16:38:06 hehe 16:38:23 I threw it together in one (half) school day 16:38:33 coould have a bit of a cleaner definition, but otherwise its good(I assume some of the weirdness is because its an April fools joke) 16:38:34 nice 16:39:15 it was definitely not extremely thought out (because it was originally an april fools joke) 16:39:33 [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179010&oldid=178972 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+42) /* esolangs */ 16:39:38 -!- joast has joined. 16:40:06 if you'd be ok with it I'd like to make the article a little clearer. 16:40:17 absolutely! 16:40:22 (I know the be bold with editing thing but oh well) 16:40:24 great! 16:40:27 will do later 16:44:38 expanding the comments in the A+B program 16:44:43 I think I can golf it a bit 16:44:47 nice! 16:45:05 im quite surprised ive caught you for once in a place where our time zones lime up lol 16:46:04 I just haven't been logging on frequently lol 16:46:08 too lazyy 16:46:36 lol 16:46:49 me neither(but thats because I left the community for a bit and then came back) 16:47:21 You're doing fine. There are some folks who take multi-year breaks between editing sessions. 16:48:08 (i didnt intend it to seem like I was disappointed in myself for it or anything likee that) 16:52:58 [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179011&oldid=178891 * Aadenboy * (+663) /* A+B Problem */ 16:53:07 there we go 16:53:14 noice 16:54:01 Mhm!'s irreversable state reminds me of Countable 16:54:18 irreversible* 16:56:10 you recent languages seem like just a chain from iterate lol 16:56:46 they def are hehe 16:56:52 lul 16:57:16 its kinda similair to Do Minsky which happened a while ago 16:57:54 and filled up practically my whole interview with Daniel temkin lol 16:58:28 been wanting to ask how that worked 16:58:31 the interview 16:58:54 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in). 16:58:54 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in). 16:59:44 I just emailed him, and then he interview over email 16:59:57 he gives like he questions in lil' groups 17:00:06 ah 17:00:36 I think you'd be able to get one! 17:01:04 i was so very surprised when he said yes 17:01:20 maybe later..... 17:01:30 cool 17:02:20 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Quit: Client closed). 17:02:38 -!- simcop2387 has joined. 17:03:35 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 17:06:40 -!- perlbot has joined. 17:08:58 -!- aadenboy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:09:40 -!- aadenboy has joined. 17:17:04 btw aadenboy, do you want to do the same challeneg as dragoneater? 17:17:21 I'm good, I'm working on other stuff atm 17:17:31 k cool 17:31:51 -!- emery has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:36:31 -!- emery has joined. 17:49:00 -!- dragoneater67mob has joined. 17:49:02 hi 17:53:57 -!- dragoneater67mob has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:54:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:02:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:15:49 -!- sftp has joined. 18:15:50 -!- sftp has changed hostmask to ~sftp@user/sftp. 18:19:07 -!- sftp has quit (Client Quit). 18:34:08 i find it interesting how sometimes IRC will show the quit message but not the join message 18:37:19 -!- dragoneater68 has joined. 18:37:21 hi im back 18:37:37 hi! hru now? 18:37:39 im not on my main dragoneater67 acc bc its taken by my laptop 18:37:45 still gud 18:37:48 noice 18:37:50 Yayimhere: depends on the client.. both get sent by server (join & quit I mean) 18:38:05 i also can see all the join & quit messages 18:38:08 FireFly: huh. 18:38:15 -!- dragoneater68 has quit (Client Quit). 18:38:29 -!- dragoneater68 has joined. 18:38:49 the joins and quits can get noisy in some channels, so some clients have (more or less smart) filters and settings to filter them out 18:39:04 oh huh. cool 18:39:05 I'm not sure what the current webchat does really 18:39:29 which client do you use btw? 18:39:42 libera 18:39:47 lul 18:39:49 i use catgirl 18:40:04 i srsly dont know that much 'bout IRC whatsoever 18:40:22 i used libera, when users join and quit with no say, the join/quit messages cancel out i think 18:40:23 its for chatting 18:40:35 -!- dragoneater68 has quit (Client Quit). 18:40:48 -!- dragoneater68 has joined. 18:40:49 I know, but I mean, I know nothing about clients, the inner workings, ect. 18:41:27 i'm currently reading the irc client protocol (rfc 2812) 18:41:32 cool 18:41:38 there are many clients 18:41:41 like pidgin 18:41:43 hexchat 18:41:51 catgirl (my fav) 18:41:52 irssi 18:42:08 i'm using it to build my own client, it's exhaustive, but it may help with learning the internals 18:42:16 cool 18:42:20 I use weechat, works well enough for me 18:42:26 very much so 18:42:35 -!- dragoneater81 has joined. 18:42:44 i hate libera client 18:42:55 it disconnects on every occasion 18:42:56 why? 18:42:59 ah 18:43:06 its good enough for me 18:43:19 its just the same as having to reload discord every other second for some reason 18:43:21 sooo 18:45:45 i had this idea 18:46:06 what if we make a turing incomplete esolang 18:46:15 that is capable of running collatz conjecture 18:46:27 -!- dragoneater68 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:46:33 so that the halting problem is undecidable 18:46:34 that seems quite simple 18:46:40 dragoneater81: that's tricky to do in a generalised way because the Collatz conjecture is very close to being Turing-complete on its own 18:46:41 but its turing incomolete 18:46:48 aahh 18:46:50 wait 18:46:58 idk if we are talking 'bout the same ting 18:47:00 very close indeed 18:47:35 i had a design for such a language 18:47:46 ooooh 18:47:49 -!- dragoneater68 has joined. 18:47:51 but i lost it 18:47:57 sad 18:48:00 Yayimhere: the original collatz function halves even numbers and calculates 3n+1 for odd numbers 18:48:01 oh, the username is back! 18:48:13 ais523: yea I know 18:48:29 and the conjecture is that if you iterate it, it reaches 1 from any positive integer 18:48:39 i know 18:48:47 is it undecidable if it will? 18:49:18 lets say that we have an unbounded nonnegative integer accumulator A 18:49:25 hm 18:49:35 if you replace "odd" and "even" by values modulo a number other than 2, and allow arbitrary scale factors (the original Collatz function uses ½ and 3 as the scale factors), it's Turing-complete 18:49:54 the program runs in an implicit infinite loop (e.g. when end is reached, it loops back to start) 18:49:55 the specific choie of numbers ½n+0 and 3n+1 aren't known to be Turing-complete, though 18:50:01 yea I know that as well 18:50:20 the addition isn't needed for TCness, either, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip is TC using just the multiplication 18:50:34 das nice 18:50:35 % halves A 18:50:47 + increments A 18:50:56 3 triples A 18:51:18 and another interesting special case is when all the scale factors are the same (and only the additive factor changes), this one isn't known to be TC but appears in multiple unsolved problems 18:51:40 ( jumps to matching ) if A is even 18:51:52 -!- dragoneater81 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:52:01 -!- dragoneater31 has joined. 18:52:03 ) jumps back to start 18:52:19 wait what? 18:52:22 ! decrements A and halts if 0 18:52:23 e.g. the Hydra/Antihydra problem maps even n to 1½n and odd n to 1½n-½, and asks whether you ever end up with an extreme bias in odd versus even results (twice as many of one as the other) 18:52:32 i think that was the entire design 18:52:35 -!- dragoneater31 has quit (Client Quit). 18:52:37 it really seems like it shouldn't but it is extremely hard to prove this 18:52:39 so ( jumps back to start if even? 18:55:02 oh, so in that set of Collatz functions, you allow the program to give as many different scaling factors as your modulus? 18:55:41 b_jonas: in traditional generalized Collatz and Tip, you can have a different scale factor for every value of the modulus, yes 18:55:55 e.g. ½ and 3 in the original Collatz function 18:56:02 -!- dragoneater68 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:56:10 ok good 18:56:41 I use "consistent Collatz" as a name for the version where all the scale factors are the same (this is the version that https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos implements) 18:57:07 wbu collatz where its always a value under one for the first value? 18:57:20 in other words it always divides(by an integer) 18:57:21 consistent Collatz can be simulated in quasilinear time despite the size of the numbers growing exponentially 18:57:59 Yayimhere: I have to be careful talking about this, because I studied it for languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Conedy but I think I screwed up / got confused, so my memories about how this works are based on incorrect data 18:59:25 in general I am surprisingly bad at reasoning about this sort of "inverted Collatz" where you are using values between 0 and 1 and scaling based on the interval, rather than using integers and scaling based on the modulus 18:59:56 huh 19:00:27 . o O ( arithmetic coding vs range coding ) 19:00:44 int-e: huh, that does seem very related 19:01:25 is there a "branchless" way to define generalized collatz btw? or atleast is one known 19:01:55 I had heard that some generalizations of Collatz are computationally hard, but without explanation, and this generalization is a nice explanation for thiat 19:02:14 Yayimhere: you need something conditional-like but it can be a branchless conditional 19:02:23 yea I guess that makes sense 19:02:33 e.g. a Tip interpreter usually isn't branchy at all, it just takes the modulus, indexes into an array, and multiplies 19:02:39 something somerginf BCT 19:02:44 but array indexing is basically a form of branchless conditional 19:02:45 ais523: oh there is a connection there at a conceptual level; I just don't see that it's useful if your goal is to tackle the Collatz type conjectures 19:02:50 specifically I heard this as explanation for why eg. Turing-machines with very few states and symbols can have hard to predict behavior 19:03:00 int-e: my goal is more to work out Conedy's computational class 19:04:14 I would describe what the language does as follows: you have a working number which is a bounded rational (going out of bounds = halt), you can jump based on whether it is greater than or less than a fixed rational, you can also add, subtract, multiply by or divide by a constant 19:04:33 and I originally assumed this was analogous to generalized Collatz and then realised that it wasn't 19:04:37 because you can't do a modulo test 19:06:18 dragoneater67: I found catgirl to be quite nice too. 19:08:09 that's a nice natural-sounding description 19:08:32 ais523: ah you made the nets closed. awkward 19:08:55 (but eh, several things are awkward compared to Trajedy) 19:10:26 dragoneater67: I'm using an older KVIrc client 19:20:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:21:03 int-e: I don't even think closedness versus openness matters here? if hitting a net is closed, missing it is open 19:22:09 -!- tromp has joined. 19:23:03 ais523: Hmm, maybe. But this prevents you from making a closed diagonal line of nets, for example, the way you can with mirrors in Trajedy. But yeah maybe you don't have to. 19:29:45 I see that closedness makes defining things easier; to make open nets work, you'd have to do the ray intersection test with the open net, but then still use the closed one for finding the point of collision and determining the new trajectory. 19:34:29 hmmm 19:34:37 i meant gamja, not libera, the irc server itself. libera also has kiwi as a web client, but i'm not sure how that differs 19:34:57 I think ive made an interesting idea for a lang 19:36:10 in which every cell holds a reference to a subsection of the whole tape(which ofcourse itself nests, and so on) 19:36:24 and then you'd be able to change which section, making very non local changes 19:36:33 and you'd be able to nest into the cell ofc 19:52:42 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:55:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 19:55:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:58:12 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 20:00:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 20:05:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:33:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nightcat47853456759 * New user account 21:20:38 -!- lisbeths has joined. 21:55:39 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 22:28:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:29:58 Some time ago someone here wrote some Burroughs E101 code. I should probably figure out where, since I've resumed writing my E101 emulator 23:18:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:19:33 -!- sftp has joined. 23:19:33 -!- sftp has changed hostmask to ~sftp@user/sftp. 23:27:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:29:40 -!- lisbeths has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).