[...]
19:15:27 <ais523> but one thing I'm not sure about is how to mix I/O requests with continuous CPU use
19:16:04 <korvo> I suppose, for the logs, let p1 and p2 be E-style promises; they represent async actions. `p1<-firstThis()<-thenThat(p2)` doesn't have to materialize an intermediate object representing the far-away result `p1<-firstThis()`; it stays on the other side of the membrane/network.
19:16:06 <ais523> because ideally you would want implementations in which requests are not started until an attempt to block to be valid, but continuous CPU use would cause them to livelock
19:17:01 <ais523> korvo: OK, I see, this is equivalent to a monad but instead of the monad being a *type* it is some other property that might have a runtime effect
19:18:55 <ais523> this is analogous to the way that you can compose monad actions without knowing how to run them
19:19:16 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:19:29 <korvo> ais523: Yes! The monad is in the physical interaction between networked machines. This is also what I mean in that note when I say that the comonad is on the other side of the screen; really, it seems like the user and the computer are *adjoint* through the screen, and the comonad and monad are merely ways of describing their experiences.
19:20:18 <korvo> Also yes. In Haskell, the API for Arrow is an example of this, although there it's because the algebraic laws aren't strong enough; the optimizer is forced to pretend that it can't see inside certain functions.
19:20:26 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> m b) -> m m b
19:20:27 <lambdabot> Error: kind error: (KVar 0,KVar 1)
19:20:33 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> m b) -> m (m b)
19:21:06 <ais523> @djinn m a -> (a -> b) -> m b
19:21:21 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
19:21:41 <ais523> (sorry for all the lambabot usage, I feel like I'm confused about something and am trying to establish what it is)
19:21:42 <korvo> I like that API idea. In Vixen, starting I/O would be done with execline's `background` wrapped by V/send:. PIDs can be checked with Process/fromPID:. Blocking can be done with execline's `wait`.
19:22:27 <ais523> I think for performance reasons, the request to block should indicate which request unblocked, so that you don't have to check them all individually (although that isn't needed for correctness)
19:22:31 <korvo> I don't have E-style vats yet. In E, if two objects are in distinct vats then they might as well be network-gapped. Linux containers could work for that.
19:22:54 <ais523> @djinn Monad m => m a -> (a -> b) -> m b
19:23:40 <korvo> ais523: And possibly completions are faster still. I'm thinking about experimenting with s6's IPC services; they have the ability to park an FD and save it for later.
19:23:50 <ais523> OK this is suddenly reminding me a lot of the "treating a runtime value as a type" thing I was talking about a few months ago
19:24:07 <ais523> it's like you have a different monad for each vat
19:24:23 <ais523> but vats are runtime concepts rather than compile-time concepts, you don't have a statically known set of them
19:24:41 <ais523> so you effectively have a type that's parameterized by a runtime value (in this case the vat ID)
19:24:46 <korvo> Huh, I guess. I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that different runtimes can technically have different vat internals, but they'd speak the same wire protocol.
19:25:39 <ais523> I have spent over a year with this being the primary problem I've been thinking about (for the Rust scoped generic things), so anything that fits the pattern, I am likely to notice
19:26:18 <ais523> but you're working with a type system that's quite different from the ones that I'm working with, so the implications may be different
19:27:39 <korvo> I don't see the scoped-generic connection quite yet. But I can see how scoped-ness and generic-ness are related, for sure.
19:28:37 <ais523> I've been meaning to rename them to runtime generics
19:28:45 <korvo> Like, as an optimization for the case where the object that you're delivering to is in the same address space, you'd like to have a scoped generic conversation with that object's vat, hand over control flow, and let the message be delivered. seL4 does small message deliveries like this; messages must fit in registers!
19:29:11 <ais523> the interesting part is that the type is generic on a runtime value, and this can be compile-time checked because it's sufficiently generic that the actual runtime value doesn't matter, the compiler just has to prove that it's always the same
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19:29:54 <ais523> specialising on a particular value would be difficult, but I'm thinking primarily about Rust which hasn't managed to implement specialisation soundly
19:30:05 <ais523> and even the minimal cut-down version which was intended to always be sound is somehow also unsound
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19:30:57 <korvo> Huh. Now that's starting to sound like Haskell ST, where a `forall` is used to force the caller to not control local state. But the caller still gets to initiate the initial control-flow delegation "into" the ST monad.
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19:31:06 <ais523> but as I said, in this case I think the type system is too different to translate well
19:31:25 <korvo> Wow, what a sentence. Maybe "the caller still gets to delegate control flow into..."
19:32:07 <ais523> korvo: OK this is very familiar, the best current Rust approximation for problems that need scoped generics is called "generativity" in the Rust community and it is basically the same trick you described there with the forall
19:32:48 <ais523> (and many implementations even use an actual Rust forall, for<'a>)
19:33:36 <ais523> anyway, /away for a bit, this is a fun conversation but I need to eat
19:33:56 <korvo> ais523: BTW Weiher and I (in different places) have suggested that call/return is a very specific thing that doesn't align with the rest of compositional semantics. https://lobste.rs/s/alzaim/thoughts_on_gentle_tyranny_call_return is a decent starting place.
19:34:10 <korvo> So it could be that what we mean by "caller" is *also* a monad-specific concept.
19:34:20 <korvo> I should eat too. Peace.
19:50:15 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170089 * Esocreator * (+1312) Created page with "=== What is Unpredictabillity === Unpredictabillity is a language that relies on randomness. Its "purpose" is to make everything compact and tiny and basically be the final boss of golflangs. And also be terrible to code in. === Explanation === It wor
19:52:05 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170090&oldid=170089 * Esocreator * (+67)
19:52:34 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170091&oldid=170090 * Esocreator * (-8) /* Quine */
20:02:21 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170092&oldid=170091 * Esocreator * (+740)
20:05:27 <b_jonas> "<korvo> […] the authors of languages like Odin, Zig, Oils and D" => wait, Oils? what is that? I'd heard of the rest
20:07:39 <korvo> b_jonas: https://oils.pub/
20:07:41 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170093&oldid=170092 * Esocreator * (-17) /* Brainfuck to Unpredictabillity Converter in Python */
20:09:06 <esolangs> [[Unpredictabillity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170094&oldid=170093 * Esocreator * (-8) /* Brainfuck to Unpredictabillity Converter in Python */
20:09:07 <b_jonas> async/await => didn't ziglang just replace those with something else?
20:09:08 <korvo> It's very funny in retrospect that I went to Google and was all horrified at how people were commodotized, and Andy and Andrew came away from Google with beliefs like "bash sucks" or "C sucks".
20:11:18 <korvo> Yes, Zig is now doing a pattern where they "return into the monad", so to speak; the entire action returns into some chosen I/O context, which can be async or sync or something else. I also accidentally tripped over this pattern in 2012 when wrapping Ganeti: https://github.com/mostawesomeDude/gentleman
20:20:40 <b_jonas> “<ais523> […] the primary problem I've been thinking about (for the Rust scoped generic things)” => we should attract more Haskellers to this channel, because I think they could comment more on a lot of these ideas that you are discussing
20:21:14 <ais523> b_jonas: in my most recent blogpost I mentioned looking in Haskell to try to find the typesystem ideas I needed, because it's almost always had them first
20:22:23 <ais523> <korvo> It's very funny in retrospect that I went to Google and was all horrified at how people were commodotized ← to me, the commoditization of developers is a problem but isn't in the least unexpected, so although it's somewhat horrifying, seeing it in person wouldn't make me more horrified
20:24:14 <ais523> oh wow, just loading that Github link caused a noticeable difference to my (sadly onscreen rather than physical) blinkenlights, I'm not surprised that Github has bloated JS but I didn't expect it to be *that* bloated
20:25:11 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, for sure. It's just like, I don't know. Like somebody looking at Dark City or Cloud Atlas or Metropolis or Blade Runner or Ferngully and saying, "Y'know, running a big machine like that at scale takes a lot of engineering effort. I think I could make this machine much more efficient if I contributed a bunch of open-source labor!"
20:28:56 <zzo38> You can use the GitHub API instead, or add your own script (the JSON data is included with the HTML so you could make your own script to parse that data)
20:29:17 <zzo38> In that case you will not have to use GitHub's bloated scripts; I do not use (or like) GitHub's scripts
20:30:39 <b_jonas> “looking in Haskell” => of course, you should do that too.
20:59:49 <korvo> I had a bagel sandwich. Turkey on pumpernickel, hot mustard.
21:00:36 <korvo> On ais523's suggested I/O API: I looked up execline's wait. https://www.skarnet.org/software/execline/wait.html "wait for one of the listed pids — exec into prog as soon as one of the listed children dies. (If no pid is listed, wait for one child to die.) The ! environment variable will be set to the pid that died, and the ? environment variable will contain an approximation of its exit code." So it supports selecting just one event.
21:01:22 <ais523> selecting one seems OK to me – in a delay-insensitive world it's enough
21:02:09 <ais523> the reasons to be able to select multiple are basically down to a) prioritisation of things that need to happen sooner (e.g. relatime programs or performance optimisations in multithreade programs) and b) avoiding livelocks
21:02:59 <korvo> ais523: You might be interested to know that, in the Joule lineage (E, Monte), we *can't* wait. We can only attach a when-block that will run when the promise resolves in the future. If it resolves, really. This is like always being "in the monad", experientially.
21:03:21 <korvo> We're supposed to always do that in Twisted, EventMachine, Node, etc. but there's ways to dig below the runtime layer. Ditto for e.g. React and its layer.
21:03:46 <ais523> korvo: right, the API call to block is basically the monad runner, but there's no reason for the monad runner to conceptually exist in the language rather than in the runtime
21:06:04 <ais523> (but it needs to exist from the point of view of the OS or wrapper-around-system-calls that provides the API, so that the runtime is possible to write)
21:06:21 <korvo> Yeah. Speed, maybe. Tradition? It used to be the case that the entire system had to contort around a single poll() or select() call; the event loop is literally one specific while-loop.
21:16:07 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170095&oldid=169633 * Waffelz * (+54)
21:16:24 <ais523> fwiw I still think that it's correct for I/O-bound programs to do that (or maybe have a thread on each core and do one poll/select equivalent per thread)
21:16:43 <ais523> although we have better APIs than poll and select nowadays
21:16:56 <ais523> it's still conceptually a single-point API, just with a better interface
21:22:38 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170096&oldid=170029 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+18) Improved the interpreter's documentation and supplemented a further page category tag.
21:22:46 <b_jonas> ais523: re CPU-bound programs, so my model here is schmorp's modules, and they provide two APIs for this. one is yield, which has an interface like it was an IO action that could block, but doesn't actually block, whenever the event loop next checks for when it's read it'll always be ready and successful and call its callback for that, but there's a forward progress guaranteed that if any other actions
21:22:52 <b_jonas> (of the same or more urgent priority) are ready too then if you yield enough times then something will be handled. the other is idle, which blocks until every action (of the same or more urgent priority) is blocking so there's free CPU time.
21:24:51 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, that makes sense – I was having similar thoughts myself
21:25:29 <ais523> the primary issue here is just to avoid starvation/livelock, which you do by cycling through priorities, and that means that CPU-bound computations need to be able to yield so that they can be outprioritised
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21:35:59 <korvo> ais523: About threads: what if they're also a traditional solution? Like, we don't just put any actions on long-running threads; it's specifically stuff like audio callbacks or filesystem accesses which (used to be?) time-sensitive interrupts that had their own vectors.
21:36:16 <korvo> Threading discipline, loose as it is, evolved from IRQ-handling discipline.
21:36:37 <ais523> korvo: OK, I think here you have to distinguish threads as a programming model from OS-level threads as an implementation technique
21:36:49 <ais523> I'm not a huge fan for using threads for I/O in *either* case, but the reasons are different in the two cases
21:37:55 <ais523> or, well, they both stem to "threads require a certain amound of bookkeeping to use properly and it's usually a bad match for the purpose for which you actually wanted the thread"
21:38:09 <korvo> ais523: Yeah. The punchline for Vixen is that I think I don't care about threads but I care about locks. I will probably want to be able to serialize accesses to an object s.t. it can't have two method activations at once, which seems like an interesting problem, but I don't care how many threads the kernel is managing.
21:39:08 <ais523> the history of Rust is a bit interesting here, originally it had tasks (same semantics as threads but not necessarily implemented using OS threads), but eventually it removed them
21:39:43 <ais523> but I wasn't paying attention at the time so I'm not sure what the reasoning behind the decision was
21:40:12 <korvo> IIRC it was just a theoretical burden for future embedded toolchains.
21:40:48 <ais523> right, runtimes often don't scale down very well
21:41:33 <ais523> and there are also some awkwardnesses like "you need some way to pre-empt the tasks if you want them to act exactly like threads" – I'm not sure whether old Rust pre-empted them or not
21:41:41 <sorear> threads which last longer than a single user action were a mistake, in general, because they make painless updates and many types of power management impossible
21:44:53 <korvo> sorear: A pattern: C++ `inline` guarantees that the code is copied to the call site. E `PassByCopy` and `CopyByConstruction` (sp?) guarantees that an object/method is copyable over the network. seL4 something something, declare that a micro-message is okay, promise not to touch registers.
21:45:33 <korvo> Pass some memory. Promise you won't go outside the memory. Do it quickly. You can only have a tiny bit of my control flow, maybe a single-use continuation to abort early.
21:50:26 <korvo> Sorry, I'm getting weird. Later.
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23:01:30 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170104&oldid=170103 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) update counter; day 1/1845 (0.0542% completed)
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04:09:45 <zzo38> Is there a standard way in a ASN.1 schema to specify which control characters are allowed in a ISO 2022 string? The existing way seems to be only all (GeneralString) or nothing (GraphicString). I think it is usually useful to restrict which control characters can be used in a ISO 2022 string, and nonstandard extensions can be made if necessary.
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14:22:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Codeio * New user account
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15:24:04 <HackEso> ERROR: You should not transpose what you can't transpose. Yes this is an easteregg! \ 0
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15:43:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170139&oldid=170138 * Hammy * (+1615) /* Featured Examples */
15:43:35 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170140&oldid=170139 * Hammy * (+3) /* Featured Esolang! */
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16:21:17 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170141 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+3631) Describe the language, a very simple recursive one.
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16:43:12 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170142&oldid=170141 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* Semantics and functions */
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16:50:07 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170143&oldid=170142 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25) /* Semantics and Syntax */
17:02:11 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170144 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2285) Demonstarte the string based Srinivasa!
17:02:25 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170145&oldid=170144 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+8) /* Computational class */
17:03:16 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170146&oldid=170145 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+68) /* Computational class */
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17:19:36 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170147&oldid=170146 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2445) /* Computational class */
17:21:41 <esolangs> [[Mock theta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170148&oldid=170147 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+328) /* Computational class */
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17:35:08 <int-e> okay, today's AoC twist was annoying
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18:08:53 <fizzie> First time this year (and maybe in a longer while) that I did part 1 in Burlesque first, to find out the twist.
18:09:49 <fizzie> `blsq "123 328 51 64 \n 45 64 387 23 \n 6 98 215 314\n* + * + " lnl_ttpstpjWD{'.+]psr[}Z]++
18:10:44 <fizzie> Also learned that all of tt, ps and ri automagically do what it calls "deepmap" when applied to a block. (Burlesque's real inconsistent on which builtins do that.)
18:18:05 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170149&oldid=170143 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+171) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:18:41 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/signature]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170150 * Hammy2 * (+147) Created page with "[[User:Hammy|H]][[User talk:Hammy|a]][[Special:Contributions/Hammy|m]][[User:Esolangist/Sandbox|m]][[User:Esolangist/personal talk page|y]] {{{1}}}"
18:19:05 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170151&oldid=170149 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+21) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:19:50 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170152&oldid=170151 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+23) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:27:38 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170153&oldid=170152 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+170) /* Semantics and Syntax */
18:38:11 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/signature]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170154&oldid=170150 * Hammy2 * (+127)
18:47:03 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170155&oldid=170153 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+914)
18:47:57 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170156&oldid=170155 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+40) /* Computational class */
18:48:16 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170157&oldid=170156 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Computational class */
18:48:31 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170158&oldid=170157 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Computational class */
18:58:37 <esolangs> [[Srinivasa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170159&oldid=170158 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+141) /* Variants */
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20:31:28 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/test3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170160 * Hammy2 * (+35) Created page with "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/test4}}""
20:32:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/test4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170161 * Hammy2 * (+56) Created page with "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/How to learn this language}}""
20:33:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/How to learn this language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170162 * Hammy2 * (+147) Created page with "<noinclude> This is the full name of [[How to learn this language]]. </noinclude> How to learn "How to learn "How to learn "{{User:Hammy/test3}}""""
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20:51:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Template:you]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170163 * Hammy2 * (+62) Created page with "<span class="insertusername">{{{1|<insert name here>}}}</span>"
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22:03:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170164&oldid=170126 * Buckets * (+12)
22:03:50 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170165&oldid=170098 * Buckets * (+11)
22:04:03 <esolangs> [[Stile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170166 * Buckets * (+1540) Created page with "Stile is an Esoteric programming language Created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | <b> and </b> || Sandwich the Two cells to The left Of the Current Cell and to the right Of the Current cell and make the Current cell th
22:41:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jack * New user account
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23:33:32 <impomatic> Core War Challenge (Difficult): Write a program to spawn 8000 processes and fill the entire memory with JMP 0 instructions, with one process running each JMP.
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00:54:23 <int-e> Well, that was weird: my systemd lost all its open fds except for 0, 1, and 2?!
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00:58:53 <int-e> (I mean I did something weird: I had accidentally accumulated enough mounts that `mount` took over 3 seconds to complete. But still... didn't expect `init` to become completely unresponsive. I had to jump through hoops just to reboot.)
01:06:51 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170167&oldid=170104 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) update counter; day 2/1845 (0.1084% completed)
01:17:04 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170168&oldid=170167 * Aadenboy * (+73) making the countdown automatic (also no idea where you got 1485 from)
01:18:08 <esolangs> [[Google Slides]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170169 * Tommyaweosme * (+1154) technically an esolang, just a pain to program anything useful in.
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01:50:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:Load]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170170&oldid=170109 * None1 * (+309)
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02:12:50 <int-e> So... follow-up to that one: why does systemd make all mount points MS_SHARED by default? namespaces(7) mumbles something about this being more useful, and I don't quite see why.
02:15:04 <int-e> (And FWIW, I definitely did *not* want the /proc mount that reflects my new PID namespace inside my new mount namespace to propagate to the host, every single time that I create it.)
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02:53:57 <ais523> <impomatic> Core War Challenge (Difficult): Write a program to spawn 8000 processes and fill the entire memory with JMP 0 instructions, with one process running each JMP. ← oh this is beautiful, it's basically the same problem as the "self-deleting program problem" except easier to specify and multithreaded
03:03:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170171&oldid=170122 * Ais523 * (+1223) /* Abuse filter triggered during editing */ that page is written in an excessively verbose style
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03:27:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170172&oldid=170128 * Mker-bin * (+159) /* Introductions */
03:29:14 <esolangs> [[User:Mker-bin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170173 * Mker-bin * (+157) Introducing myself as Mker-bin
03:54:40 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170174&oldid=70332 * Ais523 * (-16) /* Examples */ StackFlow isn't a ZISC
04:11:55 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170175&oldid=170168 * Tommyaweosme * (+0) consistency
04:45:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:OOo CODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170176&oldid=33527 * Tommyaweosme * (+246)
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05:34:13 <esolangs> [[B-tapemark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170177&oldid=65399 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-9) /* Examples */ "Copy input to output" -> "Cat program"
05:52:27 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170178&oldid=170175 * Tommyaweosme * (-8265) cleaned up userpage, relevant content has been kept.
06:19:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:90]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170179&oldid=144339 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+69) /* the 90 instruction itself */
06:26:50 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170180&oldid=170174 * PkmnQ * (+26) This might be more fitting
06:28:16 <esolangs> [[Fluid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170181&oldid=169408 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-18) /* Implementations */
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10:47:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170182&oldid=154905 * None1 * (+375) /* Cellular automaton rules */ new section
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13:00:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
13:07:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170183&oldid=170172 * * (+266) /* Introductions */ Introduced myself.
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13:28:30 <esolangs> [[Meu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170184 * Timm * (+815) Created page with "{{stub}} Meu me meu meumeum Meu is cat esolang ==MAIN== Meu! Meu. Meu? Meu!? Meu?! valid Meus Output Do Input Def End {| class="wikitable" |+ Meu. Meu do |- ! count of Meu !! what do !! type |- | 1 || var X value Y || X str Y int |- | 2 || add X and Y store in Z || X int/va
13:29:01 <esolangs> [[Meu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170185&oldid=170184 * Timm * (-7)
13:29:34 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170186&oldid=170042 * Timm * (+9)
13:29:50 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170187&oldid=169420 * * (+476) Added an "implementation".
13:30:22 <esolangs> [[Waves]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170188&oldid=169884 * Timm * (+9)
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14:03:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170189&oldid=170183 * PhongEsolang369 * (+153)
14:08:00 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170190&oldid=164742 * PhongEsolang369 * (+1681)
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14:21:18 <fizzie> Ugh. Either Burlesque doesn't have a set subtraction builtin, or I've forgotten what it's called.
14:21:27 <fizzie> `blsq {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {3 4 5} {j~[n!}j+]f[ " had to use this terrible thing "vv
14:23:44 <fizzie> Not to mention how much trouble I had in getting from {{a 1} {a 2} {a 3} {b 4} {b 5}} to {{a 6} {b 9}}.
14:25:22 <fizzie> `blsq {{11 1} {11 2} {11 3} {22 4} {22 5}} {-]j-]==}gb{tpp^-]j++_+}m[ " there *must* be a better way... "vv
15:19:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170191&oldid=170182 * Corbin * (+485) /* Cellular automaton rules */
15:33:07 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170192&oldid=169943 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-5386) Clean up my user page a little
15:52:42 <esolangs> [[Lye]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170193&oldid=98276 * Corbin * (+896) Found a copy of the grammar. Still looking for example programs.
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17:51:05 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170194&oldid=170187 * Ractangle * (-26) you specified that the interpriter isn't a real interpriter, so adding the "implemented" category is redundent
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18:23:09 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170195&oldid=168495 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-5979) Blanked the page
18:23:33 <esolangs> [[Abyssal-8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170196&oldid=168496 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-20851) Blanked the page
18:28:44 <esolangs> [[Dipsh!t]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170197&oldid=170194 * * (+0)
18:30:20 <esolangs> [[Corbin Simpson]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170198 * Corbin * (+603) About myself? I'm still not making a user page.
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19:47:37 <esolangs> [[User:Rottytooth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170199&oldid=155821 * Rottytooth * (+33)
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20:29:32 <esolangs> [[UserMade]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170200 * Esolangist alt * (+267) Esolangist alt
21:31:07 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, it's list based, right? \\ may be the right thing for a difference.
21:31:30 <int-e> > [1,2,1,3] \\ [3,1]
21:31:56 <int-e> with this oddity that it treats list as multisets
21:32:22 <int-e> (oh and quadratic complexity of course)
21:49:57 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170201 * A() * (+1478) Created page with "[[Basic Binaries]] is a low-level Esolang made by [[User:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Cmd !! Op code !! Explaination |- | sta || 00000001 || Starts program |- | end (or hlt) || 00000010 || Ends program |- | ltr || 00000011 || Load to
21:50:52 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170202&oldid=170201 * A() * (+24)
21:51:59 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170203&oldid=170202 * A() * (+18)
21:52:50 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170204&oldid=170203 * A() * (+14)
21:54:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170205&oldid=170164 * A() * (+21) /* B */
21:54:50 <esolangs> [[User:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170206&oldid=163631 * A() * (+20) /* Esolangs */
21:57:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170207&oldid=170205 * A() * (+161) /* K */
22:19:39 <esolangs> [[DTM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170208 * Mker-bin * (+1490) Introducing DTM
22:28:11 <esolangs> [[Brain-accumulator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170209&oldid=170096 * A() * (+38)
22:31:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170210&oldid=170207 * Buckets * (+11)
22:32:11 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170211&oldid=170165 * Buckets * (+10)
22:32:19 <esolangs> [[Emds]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170212 * Buckets * (+1616) Created page with "Emds Is an Esoteric Programming language Created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | 1 || Start an IP, facing Leftwards. |- | . || End an IP. |- | 6 || Create another IP if an IP Makes contact With It. |- | ( || Toggles Bet
22:33:31 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170213&oldid=170204 * A() * (+112)
22:33:50 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170214&oldid=170213 * A() * (+0)
22:34:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170215&oldid=170210 * Mker-bin * (+10) /* D */
22:40:44 <esolangs> [[DTM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170216&oldid=170208 * Mker-bin * (+97) Adding link
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23:15:45 <esolangs> [[LETTER]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170217 * A() * (+654) Created page with "[[LETTER]] is a [[BF]] equalivent by [[User:A()]] ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! [[BF]] !! Cmd |- | ] || Let's move on parhaps? |- | [ || So hello! |- | + || Very great news! |- | - || Unpleasent news. |- | > || You might thinking, |- | < || But, |- | , |
23:21:28 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170218 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+53) Redirected page to [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]]
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23:23:26 <esolangs> [[EsoGoogle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170219 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+59) Created page with "uhhh #REDIRECT [http://google.com here go to google.com...]"
23:24:27 <esolangs> [[EsoGoogle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170220&oldid=170219 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-59) Blanked the page
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23:26:00 <esolangs> [[EsoCrash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170223 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+49) Created page with "uhhh dont go to: [[Crash1|{totally normal link}]]"
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23:39:04 <fizzie> Didn't think of searching for "difference".
23:39:48 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170224&oldid=170214 * A() * (+183)
23:56:46 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170225&oldid=170224 * A() * (+495) Redirected page to [[BB]]
23:57:18 <esolangs> [[BB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170226 * A() * (+24) Created page with "BB is [[Basic Binaries]]"
23:57:35 <esolangs> [[Basic Binaries]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170227&oldid=170225 * Aadenboy * (-18) remove erroneous redirect
23:58:07 <esolangs> [[BB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170228&oldid=170226 * Aadenboy * (+4) Redirected page to [[Basic Binaries]]
00:10:27 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170229&oldid=169999 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+30)
00:14:25 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170230&oldid=170229 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+90)
00:48:47 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170231&oldid=170060 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-1598) Redirected page to [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]]
00:48:56 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170232 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1638) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sing.with.me |author=[[User:Sawyer.go0923]] |year=[[Category:2025]] |class=Joke }} '''Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.now.i.know.my.abcs.next.time.wont.you.sin
00:55:42 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170233&oldid=170232 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-110)
00:58:01 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170234&oldid=170233 * Aadenboy * (+49) /* Example program */
00:58:54 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170235&oldid=170234 * Aadenboy * (-2) /* Hello, world! */ minimize jank
01:14:40 <fizzie> Also swapped part 2 from using an alist-like thing (with that horrible merge) to a list of counts for every column, because then it's just a matter of ?+ to combine them. Now part 2 is shorter than part 1. (But also noticeably slower for the full output.)
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01:27:43 <korvo> I don't think I'm going to finish this blog post tonight, so: feedback? This is for Raku's 2025 advent blogging event. https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/85f67849575fafb76becb6c9ebaa7604
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04:29:08 <esolangs> [[Pur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170236&oldid=165917 * Purboi * (+168) add and add
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06:20:30 <esolangs> [[3D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170237&oldid=170121 * Mun Hammer * (+0) Realised that V is better than _
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08:53:46 <esolangs> [[Noassign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170238&oldid=37184 * JIT * (+33)
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10:14:09 <esolangs> [[UCHSHOPPLWANPAATILIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170239&oldid=121923 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-29) /* Implementation */ oops gotta actually take it off
10:45:36 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170240&oldid=170235 * PkmnQ * (+2) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/170235|170235]] by [[Special:Contributions/Aadenboy|Aadenboy]] ([[User talk:Aadenboy|talk]])
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11:56:08 <esolangs> [[Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170241&oldid=107911 * * (+329) Added explanation of commands from language autor's GitHub.
11:57:44 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170242&oldid=167309 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+31) /* syntax */
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13:47:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Demetrius55 * New user account
13:58:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170243&oldid=170189 * Demetrius55 * (+220)
14:04:48 <esolangs> [[!English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170244&oldid=163393 * MihaiEso * (+19)
14:05:46 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170245&oldid=169015 * RikoMamaBala * (+129)
14:07:46 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170246&oldid=165569 * MihaiEso * (+98) /* More data */
14:19:25 <esolangs> [[Hello,world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170247&oldid=170245 * * (+31) /* Print the name of this esolang */
14:30:20 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170248&oldid=170133 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-18) /* Command set */
14:36:29 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170249&oldid=170248 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-49) /* Command set */
14:36:40 <esolangs> [[A Delusion of Control]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170250&oldid=170249 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Command set */
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14:46:39 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170251 * Demetrius55 * (+1296) Created page with "==List of created languages== :''I haven't made any languages yet. Feel free to inspire me in the discussion. '' ==Something unuseful about me== ===What was my introduce yourself?=== It was: <p style="background-color: black; color: white;">Good
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15:55:27 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170252&oldid=170240 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+59)
15:58:07 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170253&oldid=170252 * Aadenboy * (+15) clarification
16:17:17 <esolangs> [[Interval Hue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170254 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1584) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Interval Hue |author=[[User:Sawyer.go0923]] |year=2025 |memsys=None }} '''Interval Hue''' is a language with only one cell. The cell can go up to '''16777216''' then ''16777217'' will be back to ''0''. == Commands == {| class="wikit
16:17:28 <esolangs> [[!frjnrehrbwgyrigbyieurgbyfaerkhbvrwgtr.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170255&oldid=170230 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-32)
16:30:14 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170256&oldid=166412 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-24) /* examples */
16:30:32 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170257&oldid=170070 * Aadenboy * (-48) /* anything else */ optimization
16:33:07 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170258&oldid=169427 * Aadenboy * (+12) change to strong and uncontractionize
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16:37:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170259 * Aadenboy * (+340) Created page with "probably Turing-complete by using [[arbitrary memory emulation]] ~~~~"
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17:24:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170260&oldid=170257 * Aadenboy * (+42) /* my own esolangs */ [[Iterate]] obsession
17:24:49 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170261&oldid=170260 * Aadenboy * (-42) silly. don't fdo that
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18:25:43 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares/Oscillators]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170262 * Aadenboy * (+2397) some more observation
18:27:21 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170263&oldid=169815 * Aadenboy * (+4) relink
18:27:39 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170264&oldid=170261 * Aadenboy * (+8) /* anything else */
18:28:05 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170265&oldid=170071 * Aadenboy * (+8)
18:36:57 <esolangs> [[Dot.Y]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170266 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2795) Created page with "'''Dot.Y''' is an Esoteric Programming Language devised by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a "deconstructed" version of [[Karvity]](which as such would lead to Doddity, which is shortened to Dot.Y). It is quite complex, compared to some other esolangs, however is defini
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19:45:42 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares/Oscillators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170267&oldid=170262 * Aadenboy * (+70) fix errata
20:21:49 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170268&oldid=170258 * * (+18)
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20:35:04 <esolangs> [[UNO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170269 * Esolangist alt * (+3023) Esolangist alt
20:38:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:UNO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170270 * * (+544) Created page with "I actually planned making this <span style="background-color: green;">[[User:|<span style="color: white;">mario</span>]]</span><span style="background-color: yellow;">[[User talk:|<span style="color: black;">maker</span>]]</span><span style="background-color: red;">[[Special:C
21:03:12 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170271&oldid=169245 * H33T33 * (+134)
21:07:20 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170272&oldid=170271 * H33T33 * (+150)
21:07:58 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170273&oldid=170272 * H33T33 * (-2)
21:08:16 <esolangs> [[Solus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170274&oldid=170273 * H33T33 * (+1)
21:12:08 <int-e> impomatic: have I done it? https://paste.debian.net/1412986/
21:12:41 <esolangs> [[Bliss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170275&oldid=169247 * H33T33 * (+11)
21:16:34 <esolangs> [[Self++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170276&oldid=167530 * H33T33 * (-65)
22:21:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Buckets * uploaded "[[File:HelloWorldProgramInGIFt.gif]]": This Is a "Hello, World!" Program in GIFt.
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22:24:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170278&oldid=170215 * Buckets * (+11)
22:25:28 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170279&oldid=170211 * Buckets * (+10)
22:25:59 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170280&oldid=151057 * Buckets * (+39)
22:26:11 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170281 * Buckets * (+1223) Created page with ": ''Not to be confused with [[Gift]]'' GIFt is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2023. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Octal Digit !! Instructions |- | 0 || Add the Delay to the Current cell modulo 256. |- | 1 || Toggles between Setting an input Va
22:26:22 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170282&oldid=170281 * Buckets * (+1)
22:36:59 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170283&oldid=170280 * Aadenboy * (-8) proper template
22:37:08 <esolangs> [[GIFt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170284&oldid=170282 * Aadenboy * (-8) proper template
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22:57:26 <esolangs> [[Gift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170285&oldid=170283 * * (+101) /* Examples */
23:13:45 <int-e> No reply. Of course.
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01:03:05 <int-e> I must say that the relative to target indirect addressing of Core War is quite cute. Oh and the threading model rhymes with BOX-256.
01:06:36 <int-e> something that had a brief moment of popularity on here 9 years ago: http://box-256.com/ (and that I revisted even more briefly half a year ago)
01:07:36 <int-e> I forgot that that site doesn't support https, fun.
01:10:31 <int-e> > sha256sum box256_v12.zip
01:10:32 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: sha256sum :: t0 -> ([b0] -> [(a, b0)]) -> cVariable n...
01:10:33 <int-e> 546b622f69dd937e1c0ed21061cbc6c617764ed986c34d6302d55094bec0a4a2 box256_v12.zip
01:10:50 <int-e> at least that matches what I downloaded 9.4 years ago :-)
01:11:22 <int-e> (works in wine, that's how I played)
01:11:41 <b_jonas> can you put a stub article to the esowiki so we can find it?
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02:12:45 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170286 * Int-e * (+2608) let's call it semi-stubby
02:13:57 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170287&oldid=170286 * Int-e * (-3) /* Execution model */ obligatory first view fix
02:42:02 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170288&oldid=170287 * Int-e * (+190) categories
02:43:58 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170289&oldid=170288 * Int-e * (+11) /* Instructions */ add missing description
02:57:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Crash1]]": was created as a broken redirect
02:58:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Crash2]]": was created as a broken redirect
02:58:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[EsoCrash]]": not an esolang
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03:09:51 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170290&oldid=170289 * Int-e * (+1844) More on opcodes.
03:10:47 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170291&oldid=170290 * Int-e * (-1) /* Opcodes */ math
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03:12:50 <int-e> Eh that's enough for now. There are no doubt typos to find and other things to polish.
03:21:26 <esolangs> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170292&oldid=170180 * Xysdd * (+0) as talk page
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03:29:26 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, that rings a bell! thank you for creating the article
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03:35:27 <b_jonas> int-e: can you end a thread somehow? or do they linger forever
03:35:36 <int-e> they go on forever
03:36:06 <int-e> the game stops if you have drawn the target picture at the end of some cycle
03:37:43 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170293&oldid=170291 * Int-e * (+141) /* Execution model */ halting, or lack thereof
03:38:27 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170294&oldid=170293 * Int-e * (-1) /* Opcodes */ typo
03:48:35 <int-e> Anyway, I tweaked it a bit more, so here's my attempt at impomatic's Core War puzzle ( ttps://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-12-06.html#lrc ): https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence.txt
04:06:29 <b_jonas> how many colors does BOX-256 have? if it's just 16 then there's probably a theoretical universal program that iterates over all 2↑1024 pictures.
04:06:51 <int-e> yeah there are such programs
04:06:52 <b_jonas> obviously nobody has that sort of time
04:07:16 <b_jonas> and if I did I'd just use it to solve private key cryptography rather than picture drawing puzzles
04:07:21 <int-e> somebody(tm) had the time to write such programs at least :-P
04:08:29 <int-e> b_jonas: a coupld of the names may be familiar: https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4g5e6r/universal_box256_solution_solves_all_challenges/
04:09:14 <b_jonas> (admittedly 256 bytes of memory including program might be tight for cryptography)
04:09:39 <int-e> presumably if you had the time you could also find a bit more memory somewhere
04:10:41 <int-e> (also I hate reddit just enough to not link it on the wiki :-P)
04:17:12 <b_jonas> as for cryptography, have you ever thought of the hypothetical universe where public key cryptography is impossible (eg. because quantum computers break elliptic key based schemes, and all the attempts to develop quantum-resistant schemes turn out to be flawed)? trusted certificate authorities would, instead of signing public keys, give any pair of hosts that want to communicate a shared symmetric key.
04:17:18 <b_jonas> you'd keey symmetric keys to several certificate authorities, and to bootstrap, either you get a key from someone else you trust, or you get some bootstrap keys with your computer hardware that the hardware reseller installs with the operating system. and every time two paranoid people meet, instead of key-signing, they could do a test that would raise an alarm if exactly one of them has a bogus
04:17:24 <b_jonas> supposed key towards a certificate authority.
04:18:52 <b_jonas> you could also probably buy scratch-off cards with symmetric keys in physical stores, or get them in snail mail
04:20:20 <b_jonas> authenticated with hard to counterfeit holographic seals the sort that credit cards have, and if the trusted scratch-off card maker ever sells bogus keys (attempting a man in the middle attack) then you could detect that if you already have a valid key towards the certificate authority
04:20:50 <b_jonas> so if any supposedly trusted scratch-off card manufacturer attempts that news would probably go around and they'd no longer remain trusted
04:20:59 <b_jonas> it works kind of simialr to certificate authorities
04:21:03 <int-e> I have not, not in such concrete terms. At least Shamir Secret Sharing will still work, so you can split keys across several keepers.
04:21:13 <b_jonas> like in the public key cryptography world
04:23:27 <b_jonas> and of course all of this nice theory would fail in the real world for the same practical political reasons as they fail in our current public key crypto world
04:23:45 <sorear> I think you just invented Kerberos
04:24:31 <korvo> This is Impagliazzo's Minicrypt, I think.
04:24:49 <b_jonas> there's a more practical cryptography thing that I want to complain about here, but it's too late tonight for that
04:25:09 <korvo> https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html for those who haven't seen it. Really great paper.
04:25:30 <sorear> there are at least six worlds; there is an oracle separation between PKE and IBE now
04:58:04 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170295&oldid=170117 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* esolangs */ add Dot.Y
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05:12:44 <esolangs> [[Interval Hue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170296&oldid=170254 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1440)
05:23:33 <esolangs> [[Macroplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170297 * Timm * (+265) Created page with "replace and macros [want to replace] => [to replace] [want to replace] => -^[to output]^- -v- is input [name] :=> [replace] ex h :=> out => -^h^- now h will output h order matters [want to replace] => {random(valid)} random letter with love [[User:Timm]]"
05:23:59 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170298&oldid=170186 * Timm * (+16)
05:59:27 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170299&oldid=170256 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-49) /* examples */
05:59:43 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170300&oldid=170299 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* examples */
05:59:49 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170301&oldid=167551 * Placeholding * (+62)
06:00:23 <esolangs> [[Bijection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170302&oldid=170300 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-156) /* examples */
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07:27:15 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170303&oldid=170041 * Timm * (+6)
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08:44:52 <esolangs> [[Abstraction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170304&oldid=169580 * JIT * (+31)
08:45:33 <esolangs> [[Rune]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170305&oldid=169613 * JIT * (+31)
08:46:33 <esolangs> [[Cat do end]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170306&oldid=169417 * JIT * (+23)
08:47:09 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170307&oldid=169652 * JIT * (+24)
08:48:07 <esolangs> [[CatFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170308&oldid=169882 * JIT * (+33)
08:48:40 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170309&oldid=170303 * JIT * (+24)
08:49:18 <esolangs> [[Meu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170310&oldid=170185 * JIT * (+24)
08:50:00 <esolangs> [[Macroplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170311&oldid=170297 * JIT * (+24)
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09:48:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170312&oldid=170295 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* esolangs */
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09:52:05 <esolangs> [[SubI machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170313&oldid=120654 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-29) /* External Resources */ im too tired to prove this turing complete but it's not *proven* TC so it should. be listed so.
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09:53:17 <esolangs> [[SubI machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170314&oldid=170313 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-155) /* Turing-completeness */ delete the section cuz it again aint proven
10:28:00 <esolangs> [[Dot.Y]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170315&oldid=170266 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2795) theres a lot of not good stuff here so I'd rather delete it
10:52:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System/File System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170316&oldid=167027 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+465) /* Other idea */
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11:03:04 <b_jonas> korvo, sorear: these days I can also imagine some annoying worlds where public key cryptography is somewhat possible but has limitations
11:04:00 <b_jonas> like public key cryptography is possible only if you have an expensive quantum computer, and even then you can only do key exchange but not public key signatures because the keys can only be used once
11:04:55 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but requires exchanging large amounts of data – there are already public key algorithms intended to be quantum-safe like that, but it's not clear if they're the only ones possible.
11:06:25 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but we have to go through two decades of flawed primitives until we eventually get good ones
11:07:54 <b_jonas> or public key cryptography is possible but all the primitives that cryptographers can develop have big side-channel attacks unless you use specific expensive hardware support
11:08:58 <b_jonas> I *think* we don't live in these worlds, we live in the good one where public key cryptography is possible on our existing computers at a reasonable cost, but it's hard to be quite sure yet
11:29:18 <esolangs> [[Kimi daro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170317 * Timm * (+416) Created page with "{{stub}} k,m,d,r i,a,o u == THIS IS CONLANG == kimi [num] output [num] daro return input kiro [num] [num2] return [num]-[num2] dami [num] [num2] [var] jump to line [num] if [var = 0 else jump to [num2] kamo [text] [num] make var named [text] sets value to [num] or se
11:30:37 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170318&oldid=170298 * Timm * (+15)
11:35:17 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170319&oldid=170253 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+73)
11:38:31 <b_jonas> another annoying variant is if key exchange is only possible interactively in many round trips, and key pairs can only be used once because multiple interactive exchanges would leak the private key.
11:39:04 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if this one is actually possible.
11:40:06 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170320&oldid=170319 * Sawyer.go0923 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
11:40:50 <b_jonas> I think it only works if you can (at least with some probability) also fake an exchange if you know the other party's private key.
11:54:03 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170321&oldid=170320 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-116) /* Notes */
11:54:50 <esolangs> [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170322&oldid=170321 * Sawyer.go0923 * (-4)
12:04:15 <b_jonas> (maybe TCS experts already have impossibility proofs against half of the ones I listed above)
12:14:30 <esolangs> [[Gift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170323&oldid=170285 * None1 * (+1) /* Interepters: */ Fix typo
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12:41:49 <esolangs> [[Labubu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170324&oldid=160822 * * (-43) Broken link deleted.
12:43:07 <esolangs> [[Exclaim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170325&oldid=160819 * * (-25) /* See also */ Broken link fixed.
12:52:24 <esolangs> [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170326&oldid=104834 * * (-8) /* Binary (boolean) logic and gates */ Broken link fixed.
12:53:37 <esolangs> [[Kimi daro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170327&oldid=170317 * JIT * (+24) you gotta add those important categories, timm, or else they'll not be in the list of languages (the auto one)
12:58:27 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170328&oldid=96916 * * (+19) /* Bug Reports */ Broken link fixed.
12:59:56 <esolangs> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170329&oldid=164016 * * (+14) /* Interpreter */ Broken link fixed.
13:01:19 <esolangs> [[Rflct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170330&oldid=70975 * * (+8) Broken link fixed.
13:02:43 <esolangs> [[IPAlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170331&oldid=130143 * * (+1) Broken link fixed.
13:05:45 <esolangs> [[Uniode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170332&oldid=145838 * * (-1) /* Disord eslang */ Broken link fixed.
13:07:49 <esolangs> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170333&oldid=71455 * * (+16) /* Introduction */ Broken link fixed.
13:09:33 <esolangs> [[Finite Groups]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170334&oldid=16800 * * (-19) /* Computational class */ Broken link fixed.
13:12:40 <esolangs> [[Pairpointing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170335&oldid=130049 * * (+0) /* Examples */ Broken link fixed.
13:19:18 <esolangs> [[Truth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170336&oldid=108693 * * (+20) Broken link fixed.
13:24:24 <esolangs> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170337&oldid=170333 * * (-3) /* Introduction */ Broken link fixed.
13:42:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170338&oldid=163989 * * (-3) Broken link fixed.
13:43:49 <esolangs> [[Cmpilr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170339&oldid=92751 * * (-21) Broken link fixed.
14:20:01 <esolangs> [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170340&oldid=170326 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3) /* trit */ Malbolge makes mo0re sense than TRINITERCALE.
14:24:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JIT * moved [[A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] to [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]]: update
14:24:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * JIT * moved [[Talk:A programming language is a system of notation for writing computer programs.]] to [[Talk:A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]]: update
14:25:37 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170345&oldid=170341 * JIT * (+108)
14:26:01 <esolangs> [[Template:Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170346&oldid=109329 * JIT * (+5)
14:27:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JIT * uploaded "[[File:Expressingcomputerprograms.png]]": A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.
14:28:47 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170348&oldid=170345 * JIT * (-9)
14:35:49 <esolangs> [[A programming language is an artificial language for expressing computer programs.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170349&oldid=170348 * JIT * (+1)
15:33:57 <esolangs> [[Uniode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170350&oldid=170332 * PkmnQ * (+1) This one seems to be intentional
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17:43:40 <esolangs> [[User:RikoMamaBala]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170351 * RikoMamaBala * (+2079) Created page with "I do all sorts of programming stuff, from Scratch, to Python, to even a custom-made machine code that can actually be interpreted(no, really)! ==My interests in Scratch== I do all fancy stuff in Scratch. From: when green flag clicked forever move
17:45:08 <esolangs> [[Article written in Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170352 * RikoMamaBala * (+20242) Created page with "-[------->+<]>.-[->++++<]>.+[->+++<]>+.+++++++++++.[--->+<]>-----.[->+++<]>+.+++++++++++..[++>---<]>--.---[->++++<]>-.----.+++.++.-.+[---->+<]>+++.+++++[->+++<]>.---------.[--->+<]>--.[-->+++++++<]>.++.---.--------.+++++++++++.+++[->+++<]>++.+
17:55:35 <int-e> FWIW: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a771903d/
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17:56:45 <int-e> (So precisely their user page I guess?)
17:57:40 <int-e> Anyway. Feels like spam to me, and definitely shouldn't be in the main namespace.
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18:04:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Article written in Brainfuck]]": not an esolang (and articles here should be written in English)
18:07:59 <ais523> hmm, having explicit topicality rules is becoming more and more urgent, maybe I should work on those today but I have so many other things to do
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18:22:48 <Yayimhere> ais523, would you want to be told when my interview is finished? since you seemed interested when I told you about it
18:23:07 <ais523> Yayimhere: so I have my email client set up to automatically tell me if anything is posted on esoteric.codes
18:23:21 <ais523> but, since I set that up, nothing actually was posted, so I don't know whether it works or not
18:24:17 <ais523> it's worth telling the channel, though, I think – I might not be the only person who's interested
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18:25:25 <Yayimhere> i was wondering if it would be a little annoying or similair
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18:27:41 <ais523> there's certainly a limit to how much you can advertise yourself on an IRC channel, but for this channel I think the limit is fairly high
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19:11:53 <esolangs> [[Regex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170353 * Hammy * (+32) Redirected page to [[Regular expression]]
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19:16:40 <int-e> ais523: speaking of which, did you see that I solved impomatic's Core War challenge?
19:16:57 <ais523> int-e: I saw you post a demonstration of the solution, but AFAICT you didn't post the solution iteslf
19:17:04 <int-e> (I have yet to see impomatic *reply* to anything here on channel in 2025)
19:17:07 <int-e> ais523: I did that later
19:17:38 <ais523> I ended up deciding it was likely to impossible with the Redcode commands I could remember, but decided that that was likely just because I couldn't remember the commands that would solve it
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19:19:17 <int-e> I used both > and } addressing modes.
19:20:30 <int-e> < as well, but no fancy instructions; you only need spl and mov and jmp
19:20:33 <ais523> int-e: why doesn't the process at a+5 go to a+6 after clearing a+5?
19:20:48 <int-e> ais523: it does but there are two processes there
19:20:55 <int-e> the second one stays
19:20:58 <ais523> oh, I see, that's what I was missing
19:21:26 <ais523> (my mental model of Redcode had the second one moving)
19:24:08 <ais523> I'm a bit disappointed, this gives a very easy solution for what I thought was the most difficult part
19:24:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170354&oldid=170278 * AnotherUser05 * (+15) /* S */ add SeeLlash
19:25:25 <int-e> (I used djn.a which is a bit fancy, but waiting for 10 steps could be done with a series of jmp-s as well; in fact I did that originally)
19:26:01 <ais523> I was thinking about solutions that never had two threads in the same place
19:26:46 <ais523> there's almost a really elegant way to do it in which you get every thread to simultaneously overwrite a different address with the jump instruction, but it doesn't work because there's nowhere to copy the jump instruction from
19:27:19 <ais523> …and now I'm thinking about the possibility of Redcode warriors that attempt to delete all the dat instructions in memory, making it impossible for them to ever be beaten and forcing a draw
19:27:46 <int-e> ais523: Yeah I had that final step figured out quickly. Also the second-to-last step. But the 2 steps leading up to that took me ages. I also expect that there are other solutions.
19:28:12 <int-e> I don't think having all threads in different places at all times works.
19:28:30 <int-e> I could be wrong, obviously.
19:28:58 <int-e> One of the issues is that you need a `jmp 0` instructions somewhere in memory to copy it for everybody else.
19:29:43 <ais523> or, well, some sort of jmp, you could copy the 0 over an existing jmp instruction I think
19:30:33 <int-e> Anyway. It was finicky.
19:30:36 * ais523 briefly considers SIMD Core War and decides that the SIMD instructions would be far too powerful
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19:31:37 <int-e> APic: I see you're expanding your vocabulary.
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19:32:18 <int-e> No, you said "Good Night" the other day, so that one isn't new.
19:32:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
19:35:11 <int-e> ais523: The other thing about this challenge is that at least the way I interpreted it you're pretty much forced to explode process numbers exponentially and finish the final touches in under 8 steps so it finishes within the default 80k cycle limit.
19:36:05 <int-e> (where my "step" notion is process-local, so each step takes 8k cycles at the end)
19:36:09 <ais523> int-e: oh, because the cycle limit counts instruction-threads
19:36:56 <ais523> that would be a natural consequence of the way that scissors strategies work (i.e. forcing the opponent to make lots of threads in order to slow them down)
19:39:58 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170355&oldid=169329 * Ractangle * (-5)
19:40:10 <int-e> What else... The solution I ended up uses a burst of "parallel" writes to populate most of the memory. I also experimented with pre-filling most of the memory with `jmp 0`, but it made the endgame harder for me.
19:40:57 * APic likes to write i in non-Caps and You in Caps 😌
19:42:38 <ais523> I assumed that your "You" was a translation of the German "Sie", which also starts with a capital letter
19:43:18 * APic still likes You better than i or me
19:43:28 <ais523> it actually gives more information this way – English-with-German-capitalisation gives that extra small amount of information because I already know how it would look with English capitalisation rules
19:44:16 <ais523> but my German probably isn't good enough to do it myself, there are a lot of nouns I would fail to capitalise due to not concentrating enough
19:45:01 <APic> You still program much better than i
19:45:22 <ais523> English used to have an equivalent of "du" – "thou" – but it's hardly ever used nowadays, we use "you" (which is the equivalent of "Sie") for everyone, even close friends
19:45:49 <int-e> . o O ( Hey you could translate the subtle distinction between "Du Arschloch", which is endearing, and "Sie Arschloch", which is a proper insult. (This is mostly as a joke; circumstances matter more than words in practice.) )
19:46:08 <APic> Except in NetHack ;=P
19:46:49 <b_jonas> I don't think it quite works the same. capitalizing "You" in english probably means at least some degree of respect, while I can say "Sie" to someone I completely disrespect, the capitalization is there to distinguish it from third person "sie".
19:47:00 <ais523> oddly enough I had to look up "thou"–grammar because priests use "thou" to talk to the player in NetHack, and I was considering changing their messages (they apparently speak a version of English that's *so* old that almost everyone is "thou" rather than "you")
19:47:33 <ais523> b_jonas: in English, I basically only see "You" capitalised in legal documents where it's intended to refer to someone in particular (but the document is written in the second person)
19:47:51 <b_jonas> well that's even more different then
19:47:53 <ais523> like, it means "the specific intended recipient of this document" (as opposed to "whoever is reading this document")
19:48:21 <b_jonas> though I guess it doesn't imply respect then
19:48:33 <int-e> Legal documents also have a tendency to define "You" in the introduction if they do that.
19:49:01 <ais523> there is something of a paradox with respectful language, if you use language that is *too* respectful it is insulting because it's assumed that the respect is sarcastic
19:49:03 <int-e> And the convention is to Capitalize such Defined Terms.
19:49:28 <ais523> int-e: Agora has been struggling with this for decades, we're never quite sure to what extent to capitalise the terms of art
19:49:28 <korvo> "You" is typically a signatory to a contract. "By signing This Contract, You agree to the following Terms & Conditions..."
19:50:05 <b_jonas> there's too many texts written in english that capitalize way too many words. I used to think of that as "Winnie the Pooh style", but these days it's more like "Harry Potter style"
19:50:25 <ais523> e.g. referring to someone as "your majesty" would be very insulting unless it's one of the few people who actually has a high enough rank to require the honorific
19:51:07 <int-e> . o O ( People really make a mockery out of languages. )
19:51:21 <ais523> korvo: I don't think I've ever seen a contract define "This Contract" before, although it wouldn't be totally surprising if one did
19:51:50 <ais523> many nomic rulesets define what the ruleset is, after all
19:51:54 <APic> Good old Lawyers
19:52:04 <APic> Or RechtsanwältXnnen, as i would say gendered ☹
19:52:59 <ais523> English has so many words that we can normally work around the problem by finding non-gendered synonyms
19:53:02 <korvo> ais523: It happens when a contract needs to exclude or categorize certain amendments. In USA history, an example is one of our founding documents: "The Congress ... shall propose Amendments to this Constitution ..."
19:53:21 <ais523> although sometimes it's difficult, there is probably a gender-neutral version of "firewoman"/"fireman" but I don't know what it is offhand
19:53:52 <korvo> Is that actually spoken like /x/ or is it more like a /e/ vowel?
19:53:53 <ais523> korvo: does that mean that it's unconstitutional for congress to *not* propose amendments? they haven't recently
19:54:34 <korvo> ais523: I skipped a clause. In full, "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments ..."
19:54:43 <ais523> ah, that makes more sense
19:54:53 * APic only thinks of Image-Boards when i read /x/ or /e/ ☹
19:55:41 <korvo> This paragraph's actually very hotly debated. Like, there's an amendment called Equal Rights Amendment, that is technically ratified, but lots of experts say it's not ratified yet. They're heavily motivated; the Amendment gives equal rights to women.
19:55:47 <ais523> /x/ is a kind-of rarely used phoneme in English, it's in at least one loanword that most English people have heard of (last phoneme of "loch") but I don't think it's in native English words
19:56:03 <korvo> APic: Ha! I mean, is it like an "eh" sound, or like a *throat* "k" sound?
19:56:19 <ais523> I'm not sure what phoneme "x" represents in German
19:56:26 <int-e> korvo: I don't think I've ever heard people pronounce that X version. There's a capitalized I version of this gender-neutral plural that *is* pronounceable.
19:56:38 <APic> We rather speak x as Iks instead of Eks
19:57:04 <int-e> ais523: -ks- so pretty much the same as in English.
19:57:51 <korvo> Yeah, a few loanwords have it, but we migrated most /x/ to /k/ a long time ago. The examples we use when teaching Lojban are Scottish "loch", German "Bach", and Spanish "jalapeño".
19:58:47 <ais523> OK, English speakers nearly always pronounce the first phoneme of "jalapeño" as English "h" rather than /x/, I didn't actually know it was supposed to be different
19:59:13 <ais523> it was hard enough for me to learn how to correctly pronounce the ñ
19:59:18 <APic> Gooe old Nessie inside the Loch Ness…
19:59:43 <APic> The Police even thematized it in their Song Synchronicity I or Synchronicity II
19:59:47 * APic does not remember which one
19:59:57 <ais523> (to the ears of an English speaker, ñ sounds like English "ny" / IPA /nj/, but it's actually a different phoneme that's pronounced with different mouth movements)
20:00:22 <korvo> It varies depending on how far south you go. Up north, "Mexico" is pronounced like "meh-hee-koh". Far enough south there are places like Oaxaca, "wah-/x/ah-kah".
20:00:48 <int-e> I think j/y/s/z/w/v/r are the problematic ones when it comes to German vs. English. Plus you have `th`, while we have `ch` which represents two different sounds.
20:01:43 <ais523> in English, "c" can always almost be replaced with "s" or "k" without causing a pronunciation change, but ch/sh/kh are all distinct phonemes
20:02:14 <int-e> Ah, I forgot about sh, though sch is pretty much the same.
20:02:19 <ais523> so the letter isn't entirely redundant, at least with current "spelling defaults"
20:02:28 <korvo> On the West Coast, the -ñ- is basically the same sound as the -y- alteration of Japanese -n-. Like, Internet catperson "nyo" is the same sound ending West Coast "jalapeño".
20:02:50 <int-e> (I say "pretty much" but I couldn't point out any difference)
20:03:11 <ais523> there's also the phoneme at the start of the second syllable of "measure", which is normally spelled "zh" in cases where we want to be unambiguous because it's a voiced version of "sh" and "z" is the voiced version of "s"
20:04:05 <korvo> int-e: I used to have two bosses named Jonas and Jonas. I was constantly messing up which was which. They thought it was hilarious, on par with microwaved popcorn in terms of silly USA Americanisms.
20:04:26 <int-e> ais523: There's always cyrillic too: ж
20:04:54 <int-e> korvo: Were they pronounced differently?
20:05:08 <b_jonas> “a gender-neutral version of ‘firewoman’/‘fireman’” => that's “firefighter”. I think that's actually one of those cases where the neutral word is now more common than “fireman” simply because “firefighter” sounds cooler
20:05:40 <korvo> -s- and -z- are not so bad in USA English but we have to deliberately think about it. -r- is something of a Commonwealth problem; RP means constantly hallucinating rhotic sounds that were never there, e.g. "Myanmar" for the country pronounced "miahn-muh".
20:05:52 <esolangs> [[Dashed arrow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170356 * Hammy * (+22) Redirected page to [[]]
20:05:58 <korvo> int-e: Yeah, one with a y and one with dj
20:05:59 <int-e> b_jonas: Plus, "firefighter" has a phonetically distinct plural.
20:22:30 <ais523> <korvo> -r- is something of a Commonwealth problem; RP means constantly hallucinating rhotic sounds that were never there, e.g. "Myanmar" for the country pronounced "miahn-muh". ← in non-rhotic dialects of English, "r" is usually a vowel
20:22:44 <ais523> there are times where it can be a consonant but they're rarer I think
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20:50:35 <esolangs> [[DotNetOISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170357&oldid=154795 * BoundedBeans * (-117) The truth-machine does delete its files, in the terminator
20:50:51 <int-e> impomatic: Well, one more try: I came up with https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence.txt for your Core War challenge.
20:55:50 <impomatic> int-e thanks, I've just downloaded it to go through carefully later (it's bedtime here lol!) Does it create a perfect 8000 JMP 0 instructions, each with one process?
20:56:18 <int-e> you can check the cdb log at the end (and trust the omitted parts)
20:57:39 <impomatic> Fantastic, thanks. It's the first perfect solution I've received. If the processes or sequential, then it's better than my own (which has 8000 JMP 0, each with one process, but in a semi-random order)
20:58:04 <int-e> nah the order is shuffled a bit
20:58:41 <int-e> I don't see how that could be avoided; it's certainly challenging enough as is.
21:03:22 <impomatic> Yes, it took me quite a few attempts! I'm still looking for other solutions - I have a couple of near-miss solutions that I'd like to fix.
21:04:40 * impomatic now catching up on the #esolangs logs... nice to see BOX-256 mentioned.
21:05:19 <int-e> Yeah I cooked up new solutions for your Fractal Hilber Curve level half a year ago.
21:06:09 <int-e> (And a bunch of others; I even somehow woke up keely so https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/ is up-to-date)
21:07:16 <int-e> impomatic: specifically for Fractal Hilbert Curve: https://old.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/mmof14w/
21:09:59 <esolangs> [[BOX-256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170358&oldid=170294 * Int-e * (+656) add version info for opcodes + some polish
21:21:02 <esolangs> [[BlackSpace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170359 * Demetrius55 * (+1617) Created page with "{{Stub}} :''dont confuse with [[blackspace]]'' '''BlackSpace''' is language that uses block characters from Unicode, like ,,. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Accumulator-based]] ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- |<code></code> |Output
21:22:22 <sorear> b_jonas: signatures exist in minicript, sphincs and picnic are explicit constructions
21:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:Demetrius55]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170360&oldid=170251 * Demetrius55 * (-48) /* List of created languages */
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22:08:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170361&oldid=170354 * Buckets * (+10)
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22:08:58 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170362&oldid=170279 * Buckets * (+9)
22:09:07 <esolangs> [[Poy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170363 * Buckets * (+744) Created page with "{{Stub}} Poy Is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | a || Set the Next Characters until The End of the line To the Variable. |- | b || Print the Variable. |- | c || Set the Variable wit
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22:11:29 <korvo> Does Buckets have any evidence for their languages? I'm suspecting that they are making fresh languages and pretending that they were invented in the past.
22:14:54 <ais523> korvo: I think the year categories are supposed to be "first became public" rather than "first created"
22:15:01 <ais523> although that can also be difficult to prove
22:15:40 <ais523> there are some interesting cases like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag
22:16:10 <ais523> in 2019 I studied the language "a vd vt", I eventually proved a subset of it Turing-complete, Grill Tag is the subset
22:16:21 <ais523> so was Grill Tag created/publicised in 2019 or 2023?
22:16:30 <ais523> (of course, the subset being TC means the full language is also TC)
22:25:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, for example an interesting case is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Joy , which was apparently invented around 1996 the latest, and maybe even just barely published for 1970s standards of published, but it was probably almost impossible to find out about it before 2001
22:26:31 <b_jonas> and of course there are pages that describe a language with multiple variants, like how C++ was gradually created from the 1990s to even today, so it's hard to pick one good date.
22:26:48 <ais523> korvo: btw, about that "many of them are spambots" on the main page – I wrote that ages ago (as "most of them are spambots") because we used to have an extremely large number of users created purely to spam and I didn't want to mislead people into thinking that all/most of the accounts were legitimate
22:27:17 <ais523> then I saw just how many legitimate people have been joining recently and realised that they probably outnumbered the spambots by now, so I toned it down
22:27:30 <korvo> ais523: That's totally fair. And I'm not accusing anybody of being a bot; I think these days that most of the spam is going to be reverse-centaur'd.
22:27:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:AnotherUser05]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170364&oldid=124400 * Aadenboy * (+308)
22:27:53 <b_jonas> but yes, it should be date of publication or escape more than date of invention
22:28:17 * korvo . o ( a centaur is just a reverse-centaur doing a handstand )
22:28:38 <ais523> the number of banned users (which is a good estimate for the number of spambots – spambots vastly outnumber people who were banned for other reasons) is by now only a small fraction of the total number of users, so possibly the statistics are "accurate enough" by now
22:29:07 <ais523> that said I think there are a lot of spambots who got past the captcha but couldn't figure out how to get past the "Introduce yourself", and so never got banned
22:30:07 <ais523> (the "Introduce yourself" is purely an anti-spam feature – it might seem trivial to get past in an automated way but apparently doing that doesn't integrate well into common spamming platforms, so after it was created we had a lot of spambots passing the captcha and then failing to successfully spam)
22:30:54 <ais523> and eventually the spammers realised that whatever they were doing to solve the captcha wasn't worth their money if they couldn't spam using it, so they stopped creating accounts too
22:31:49 <ais523> I'm really curious about that, I don't think our captcha is commonly used enough to be worth writing a captcha-break specifically for it
22:32:04 <ais523> so maybe it was being solved by humans
22:32:32 <int-e> well there's the theory that they recruit human solvers, but only up to the point where the account is successfully created
22:32:46 <int-e> ais523: probably your theory, now that I think about it.
22:33:19 <ais523> right, it would totally make sense for a MediaWiki-spamming platform to have a way to refer the captcha to a human captcha-solving service
22:33:47 <ais523> but it would have no reason to involve the humans in the step immediately after that, because it's the same for basically all MediaWiki wikis except ours
22:34:39 <b_jonas> ok wait. https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Befunge&diff=156109&oldid=155581 the supposed Hello world program added here doesn't print the H, right? if so, does this user have a more valuable contribution?
22:34:41 <int-e> who said that security by obscurity doesn't work (knocks on wood etc)
22:35:09 <ais523> int-e: *knocks on SSH port*
22:35:23 <int-e> ais523: Eh they do that all the time.
22:35:35 <ais523> really this is about threat models I think
22:35:41 <int-e> *mostly* trying to log in as root with a password
22:35:48 <ais523> defending against random bots and defending against determined humans are very different problems
22:36:05 <int-e> (actual port knocking tends to use *non*-ssh ports)
22:36:24 <ais523> right, I guess I meant knocking around/before the port
22:36:56 <b_jonas> because some of their other edits that I've seen are new pages for supposed esolangs that look very low quality, but given what's on our wiki that might not be enough of a sign
22:37:26 <ais523> b_jonas: see the next diff on that article
22:37:51 <ais523> this is an extremely plausible typo given that the program was converted to a code block by indenting it one space
22:39:28 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, that's not the same code block, I'm asking about the one after "Without directly Changing to a Certain direction:". that pushes the letters in reverse using double quote, then pushes a 0, then does *two* conditional direction changes, then start printing letters
22:39:50 <b_jonas> I think the typo is in a program that's not by this user
22:40:20 <ais523> Befunge without <^>v doesn't seem like too interesting a subset to me
22:40:33 <ais523> now I'm wondering about "Befunge, but the only way to change the IP direction is ?"
22:40:53 <int-e> b_jonas: the edit you mentioned adds two programs; the typo fix is in the second one
22:40:56 <ais523> conditionals would be very limited in this (you could still use p)
22:41:03 <b_jonas> that code is by this user, I was wrong
22:41:10 <int-e> b_jonas: so I guess you're asking about the first one
22:41:57 <ais523> in any case, a Befunge hello world can be written in one line without any control flow commands at all
22:42:15 <zzo38> I made up a way to store the ISO 2022 character set designation as a 32-bit number: bit6-bit0 = The low 7-bits of the final byte of the designation. bit7 = Set for C1 or 96-sets, clear for C0 or 94-sets. bit11-bit8 = Last intermediate byte. bit15-bit12 = Secondly last intermediate byte.
22:42:26 <ais523> it's something like 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
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22:42:44 <zzo38> bit19-bit16 = Thirdly last intermediate byte. bit23-bit20 = Fourthly last intermediate byte. bit27-bit24 = Fifthly last intermediate byte. bit28-bit23 = Number of intermediate bytes (0 to 5). bit31 = Set for multi-byte characters (unused for C sets).
22:43:09 <ais523> `befunge 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:43:11 <HackEso> befunge? No such file or directory
22:43:12 <ais523> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow, olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:43:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, though trying to align the commas above the string makes some amount of sense, you don't have to count characters
22:43:19 <ais523> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow ,olleH",,,,,,,,,,,,,,@
22:46:55 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Foldy&diff=153903&oldid=151676 adds a hello world program that is just as untested as the Befunge one, it has an arithmetic error that you'd notice if you actually ran the program
22:47:23 <ais523> b_jonas: you might want to leave them a talk page note asking them to test their programs before adding them? (although for many esolangs there's no interpreter, so testing is dificult)
22:47:25 <b_jonas> this one is also for a language that the user didn't create
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22:48:25 <esolangs> [[Foldy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170365&oldid=157423 * Ais523 * (-70) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:48:54 <esolangs> [[Messenger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170366&oldid=135331 * Ais523 * (-16) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:49:51 <b_jonas> I wonder if this is a translation of a Befunge Hello World
22:50:53 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-piped-link-to-userspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170367&oldid=135649 * Ais523 * (+141) warn people against trying to work around the ban on hiding the User: prefix on links to userpages
22:53:23 <fizzie> `! befunge 55+"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@ the traditional oneliner
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[IEBEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170368&oldid=166773 * Ais523 * (-82) do not hide the User: on links to userspace
22:54:11 <ais523> fizzie: right, I was trying to avoid the > though, to match the restriction on the program that was posted
22:56:28 <b_jonas> so in https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Foldy&diff=153903&oldid=151676 the code 111 for the second "o" is generated with the code "92*52**1*", the correct code would be "92+52**1+", the next letter "r" depends on this; the 101 for the first "e" is generated with "99*58*+", that's wrong and I'm not sure what it's an error for, but the next three letters depend on it too so most of the hello is wrong
22:58:10 <b_jonas> maybe it's supposed to be "99*54*+"
22:58:37 <ais523> b_jonas: someone fixed it in the next diff
22:58:42 <ais523> (someone else, that is)
23:01:23 <ais523> huh, Firefox Translate translates "日本語" to "English" – I'm pretty sure that's wrong
23:02:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that's kind of logical. even though the original means "Japanese", it most often occurs as a heading of a description in group of the same text translated to multiple labels, so if you're translating the whole section to english then the section should now be labeled as "English"
23:03:13 <ais523> oh, and I'm pretty sure I know why a naively trained AI would do that translation – there must be tons and tons of pairs of web pages that have 日本語 in the same position of the Japanese-language page as they do "English" in that position of the corresponding English-language page
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23:03:50 <sorear> or if someone says something incomprehensible and you reply "what is that in [language]"
23:05:09 <ais523> (someone submitted a page written in Japanese and it got caught in the edit filter, I'm not quite sure what to do with it)
23:06:39 <ais523> I think it may have been AI-generated but it is *much* harder for me to figure that out for a page that is written in Japanese rather than English
23:07:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/9251 if anyone is interested
23:14:13 <b_jonas> I think the user I was previously looked at is a cyborg, as in a person writing these articles with a lot of help from older chatbots that make those interesting mistakes in the program
23:14:20 <b_jonas> but maybe I'm just seeing things
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23:21:07 <int-e> ais523: I feel that it's healthier from an admin perspective to stick to English as much as possible for the wiki contents. Which sidesteps the question whether this is a human effort or not.
23:23:42 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the healthy thing would be to allow several languages, anything is fine as long as enough admins can read some of the language so they can moderate away spam and other problems. but with ais as the only active admin, that doesn't really work.
23:25:24 <b_jonas> if only we could convince korvo to help with the moderation
23:26:04 * korvo can be trusted with power tools
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23:40:36 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/issue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170369&oldid=169997 * Aadenboy * (+730) another one
23:46:15 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170370&oldid=24891 * Aadenboy * (-26) fix dead links
00:29:51 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170371 * Corbin * (+589) Stub an important concept. I'm writing a blog post and I'd like to have ''something'' to bluelink, as WP doesn't have an article on this!
00:31:49 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170372&oldid=170371 * Aadenboy * (+13) lowercase
00:56:25 <ais523> hmm, "compiler routine" is a bit ambiguous but I don't know what else to call it
00:56:52 <ais523> it's generally used by metaprogramming facilities to generate symbols at compile time (although it could plausibly be used at runtime in a language that was sufficiently dynamic)
00:57:19 <ais523> I think gensym would be ontopic for WIkipedia but it might be hard to find the required amount of secondary coverage
00:57:32 <ais523> especially as it's likely to be, e.g., side mentions in academic papers
00:59:00 <b_jonas> I gensym in two different levels in Olvashato, I guess you could get confused by that
01:01:59 <b_jonas> The compiler gens prolog symbol names -- these are represented by ruby strings so there's no ruby gensym involved. But then the if you run the resulting prolog program, it can use copy_term to gen more syms at runtime: this happens whenever you call a function value (as opposed to a named function).
01:08:31 <sorear> huh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_variable exists
01:10:12 <ais523> that article would probably be better if it explained the difference between fresh variables and free variables
01:11:30 <ais523> there was an AfD where people thought it might be good to merge into another article but weren't sure which one
01:11:41 <ais523> I suspect the correct location is an article about variable capture, but Wikipedia doesn't have one of those either
01:12:42 <ais523> ah, it's a section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro#The_hygiene_problem
01:13:07 <ais523> but it's worded in terms of shadowing rather than capturing
01:14:43 <esolangs> [[Gensym]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170373&oldid=170372 * Ais523 * (+84) link to the appropriate Wikipedia section
01:32:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170374&oldid=170361 * Mker-bin * (-10) /* D */
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01:35:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170375&oldid=170243 * Mker-bin * (-159) /* Introductions */
01:41:12 <b_jonas> I'm looking at https://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/#colorrule , it says “… we need to change that color in one family to something else.”. doesn't say “fresh color” or anything like that.
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01:53:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ytebbit * New user account
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02:03:24 <int-e> Well, here's one more refinement: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/omnipresence-exact.txt -- this version spawns exactly CORESIZE-6 threads for the bulk task instead of relying on exceeding the MAXPROCESS limit, which also happens to save two instructions (counting the dat 0 instruction that killed the sacrificial processes previously)
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02:05:48 <int-e> For the most part this was motivated by trying to figure out the variables feature of the pMARS language. There are no binary shift operations, so converting a number to binary is a tad tricky.
02:07:37 <int-e> (The finicky part is unchanged so I still consider this to be the same solution.)
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02:26:29 <korvo> ais523: Nice, thanks.
02:27:18 <ais523> korvo: there are a couple of relevant sections in that article, I posted one on IRC and one on Esolang, so pick whichever one works best for your purpsoes
02:27:19 <korvo> And yeah, it's always been side mentions. OCaml and Scheme papers that have (define (gensym)) without explanation. Little methods in parser libraries. It didn't click for me until this afternoon that CL literally has a (gensym) routine.
02:29:18 <ais523> these little things that are side-mentions everywhere are so hard to document well
02:34:12 <b_jonas> ais523: how about in documents about prolog? I'd expect it's more documented how prolog handles this because prolog generates unbound variables during normal function calls, and also often prints expressions that contain unbound variable, so it has to handle printing those genned syms
02:34:25 <esolangs> [[User:Ytebbit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170376 * Mker-bin * (+132) Introducing Ytebbit
02:34:50 <ais523> b_jonas: the situation in Prolog is complicated because the unbound variables it generates usually don't have names at all
02:34:52 <b_jonas> s/function calls/function entry/
02:35:16 <ais523> the printing algorithms work by trying to check which of the unbound variables in the thing being printed are equal to each other
02:35:57 <ais523> | ?- display(a(F, G, b(G, T))).
02:36:24 <ais523> gensymming can be useful in Prolog but you wouldn't use it for variable names
02:38:24 <ais523> the REPL appears to retain variable names, but that's just because it's trying to match up the names in its output with the names it saw in the input, rather than because the variables have names internally
02:38:53 <b_jonas> I think getting printable names is usually not the main purpose of genning syms even outside of prolog, even if gensym happens to be implemented in a way that it gives printable names, or you get printable names in error messages later
02:39:20 <ais523> | ?- assertz(a(b(C,C))).
02:39:34 <b_jonas> the symbols just need to have identities that can be distinguished from each other and used as keys in a dictionary
02:39:48 <ais523> variable name has been forgotten because it wasn't part of the most recent REPL statement
02:40:00 <b_jonas> (and probably distingiushed from some non-symbol types)
02:42:01 <korvo> I think freshness is slightly different from gensym. In e.g. miniKanren, (fresh (x) g) doesn't say whether x is free in g, just that *if* it were free then it is now bound, and doesn't say whether there's a symbol for the variable.
02:43:03 <korvo> They do both involve bumping a counter, but only gensym actually creates a symbol.
02:46:01 <korvo> I suppose it's a more imperative approach. When a formula is open in one variable then we can naturally talk about binding a fresh variable over that formula without actually naming it. gensym is about generating the token for the name without necessarily having a formula to bind.
02:46:18 <korvo> sorear: Oh, thank you too for the link.
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02:57:10 <esolangs> [[2027]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=170377 * Tommyaweosme * (+508) Created page with "2027 is a program with 2027 unique commands, and it only works in the year 2025. However, every year, the documentation is changed so that the current year is the only one that is supported in. == Commands == f_1 - Undefined behaviour, different for every interpreter.
02:57:56 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170378&oldid=170178 * Tommyaweosme * (+13) /* esolangs */ added [[2027]], fixed infamous brainletter typo
03:00:14 <esolangs> [[Brainletter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170379&oldid=134668 * Tommyaweosme * (+26)
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03:22:54 <b_jonas> korvo: I think gensym is for generating a symbol (that isn't equal to any previously existing symbol), but a symbol isn't necessarily used as a variable, in particular even in prolog you could have a "gensym" that generates a new atom rather than a variable
03:27:31 <b_jonas> but maybe this is too general to be considered a gensym
03:28:42 <b_jonas> like in python3, you could just define `class symbol: __slots__ = []`, instances of this are usable as dictionary keys and compare by address by default, so the call `symbol()` creates a fresh symbol that works this way
03:29:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170380&oldid=170375 * Ytebbit * (+124) Introducing myself as Ytebbit
03:29:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=170381&oldid=170171 * Ytebbit * (+176) Anonymize user
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