[...]
17:45:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Cool Bungle * uploaded "[[File:Righght's Logo.jpg]]"
17:47:32 <esolangs> [[Righght]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177252&oldid=177250 * Cool Bungle * (+70)
17:49:05 <esolangs> [[Righght]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177253&oldid=177252 * Cool Bungle * (-1)
17:52:33 <esolangs> [[Righght]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177254&oldid=177253 * Cool Bungle * (+1)
18:00:41 <esolangs> [[User:Oak lod]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177255&oldid=177182 * Oak lod * (+1)
18:37:23 <esolangs> [[Whereismystack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177256&oldid=175639 * Realgitman1 * (-6) /* link */
18:37:50 <esolangs> [[Whereismystack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177257&oldid=177256 * Realgitman1 * (+0) /* Commands */
18:38:05 <esolangs> [[Whereismystack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177258&oldid=177257 * Realgitman1 * (+11) /* example */
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20:51:20 <esolangs> [[User:Thalassohora]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177259&oldid=150170 * Thalassohora * (-362) Removing some uneeded/reduntant information.
20:52:45 <esolangs> [[Gato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177260&oldid=153881 * Thalassohora * (+109)
20:53:01 <esolangs> [[Gato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177261&oldid=177260 * Thalassohora * (-9)
20:54:15 <esolangs> [[Gato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177262&oldid=177261 * Thalassohora * (-59)
20:55:20 <esolangs> [[Gato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177263&oldid=177262 * Thalassohora * (-2066) Blanked the page
20:55:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gato]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177264&oldid=153882 * Thalassohora * (-556) Blanked the page
20:57:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Thalassohora * moved [[Gato]] to [[Talk:Useless]]: Reduntant
20:58:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Thalassohora * moved [[Talk:Useless]] to [[Talk:Useless12345 SORRY]]: Misspelled title
20:59:42 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177269&oldid=177100 * Thalassohora * (-11) /* G */
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21:09:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177270&oldid=176872 * Thalassohora * (+247) /* Could you "delete" my account? */ new section
21:12:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177271&oldid=177270 * Thalassohora * (+25) /* Could you "delete" my account? */
21:12:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Thalassohora]]": user request
21:14:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/renameuser]] renameuser * Ais523 * Ais523 renamed user [[User:Thalassohora]] (24 edits) to [[User:Deleted-f42bea8d]]: anonymizing user's contributions
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22:35:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do mean the compiler and debugger (since I mentioned the debug information)
00:37:36 <HackEso> The password of the month is my secret, you know what my secret is, only caps
00:38:38 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is pending approval
00:38:45 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is pending approval
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01:55:38 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177272&oldid=177238 * BODOKE2801e * (+2) /* Fibonacci numbers */
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03:12:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177273&oldid=177246 * Dragoneater67 * (+382) /* ((()))(((())))=5 discussion */
03:17:54 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/Gato archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177274 * Dragoneater67 * (+2089) Created page with "The following is the contents of the now deleted [[Gato]] page: Gato is one of the least known [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric languages]]. It first appeared on 27th August of 2009, as a remake of happyhelper5's Minecraft in Delphi
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04:48:41 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177275&oldid=142029 * BODOKE2801e * (+163)
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06:34:27 <esolangs> [[User:NeurosamaLover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177276&oldid=177233 * NeurosamaLover * (+265)
06:39:35 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/Gato archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177277&oldid=177274 * Dragoneater67 * (+52)
06:41:13 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/Gato archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177278&oldid=177277 * Dragoneater67 * (+4) add line break
06:53:44 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177279 * NeurosamaLover * (+7344) Created page with "ZeroGrid2D is a 2D grid-based esoteric programming language developed in March 2026 to **explicitly prove Turing-completeness** in response to doubts about the computational power of its predecessor, [[ZeroStack2D]]. Unlike ZeroStack2D (which uses a 2D code gr
06:54:51 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177280&oldid=177279 * NeurosamaLover * (+3402)
06:59:11 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177281&oldid=177280 * Corbin * (+29) Tastes like slop.
07:09:46 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177282&oldid=177275 * Ractangle * (+128) /* Interpreters */
07:12:48 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177283&oldid=177205 * Ractangle * (-6) /* Python */
07:16:20 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177284&oldid=177282 * Ractangle * (-12) /* Python */
07:17:59 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177285&oldid=177272 * Cleverxia * (+124) /* Examples */ Hopefully it works
07:18:49 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177286&oldid=177285 * Cleverxia * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
07:18:54 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177287&oldid=177281 * Dragoneater67 * (+62) fix formatting + categorization
07:19:29 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177288&oldid=177287 * Dragoneater67 * (-3)
07:20:33 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177289&oldid=177288 * Dragoneater67 * (+10)
07:20:44 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177290&oldid=177289 * Dragoneater67 * (+0)
07:21:28 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177291&oldid=177290 * Dragoneater67 * (-112) /* See Also */ were these related in the first place???
07:27:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:NeurosamaLover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177292&oldid=176634 * Dragoneater67 * (+348)
07:27:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:NeurosamaLover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177293&oldid=177292 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* RATES */
07:28:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:NeurosamaLover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177294&oldid=177293 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* RATES */
07:30:39 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177295&oldid=177234 * Dragoneater67 * (+4) /* but really... */
08:17:44 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177296&oldid=175808 * Dragoneater67 * (+218)
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08:36:33 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177297 * Dragoneater67 * (+410) created new wip esolang
09:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177298&oldid=177297 * Dragoneater67 * (+423)
09:03:49 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177299&oldid=177298 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* Infinite counter */
09:54:42 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177300&oldid=177299 * Dragoneater67 * (+747) /* Interpreter */ add c++
09:56:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177301&oldid=177300 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* Python */
09:57:09 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177302&oldid=177301 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* C++ */
09:58:00 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177303&oldid=177302 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* Interpreter */
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10:45:47 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177304&oldid=174485 * Qazwsxplm * (+11)
10:46:22 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177305&oldid=177304 * Qazwsxplm * (+5)
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11:03:07 <esolangs> [[Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177306&oldid=174249 * Qazwsxplm * (+45) /* History */
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11:57:21 <esolangs> [[Bobotw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177307 * Qazwsxplm * (+3378) Created page with "'''Bobotw''' is [[Bottles of beer on the wall]] but just numbers. Designed by [[User:Qazwsxplm]]. ==Examples== ===One time [[Cat Program]]=== <pre> 10 </pre> ===[[Cat Program]]=== <pre> 6798 </pre> ===[[Hello World|HELLOWORLD]]=== <pre> 24900171313599407832425897376933
11:59:03 <esolangs> [[Bottles of beer on the wall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177308&oldid=128272 * Qazwsxplm * (+47)
11:59:56 <esolangs> [[Bobotw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177309&oldid=177307 * Qazwsxplm * (+13) /* Will It Work? */
12:00:43 <esolangs> [[Bobotw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177310&oldid=177309 * Qazwsxplm * (+0) /* Categories */
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12:02:25 <esolangs> [[Bobotw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177311&oldid=177310 * Qazwsxplm * (+31)
12:12:56 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177312&oldid=173545 * Qazwsxplm * (+24) /* $+-? */
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13:26:40 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177313&oldid=177144 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+2)
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14:11:02 <esolangs> [[12 machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177314 * Mrtli08 * (+376) Created page with "(NOTE: This page is user-editable, but do not add/remove commands, you can adjust the commands little but just make programs) 12 machine is a language with only the commands 1 and 2, based off [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]]. 1 goes 2 instructions forward if the end of the sta
15:15:27 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1340.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
15:51:03 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177315&oldid=177313 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+11)
15:58:30 <korvo> Vibecoding challenge 2 is live: https://lobste.rs/s/cyavky/vibecoding_challenge_2_five_feathers
15:59:07 <korvo> Feeling extremely misanthropic today. This isn't quite as bad as when COVID-19 started, but it's up there. Not a great weekend for empathy.
16:27:16 <esolangs> [[Bobotw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177316&oldid=177311 * Aadenboy * (-16) remove unnecessary header
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18:26:44 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177317&oldid=177108 * Aadenboy * (+1129) some pointer interactions. I think this might work? would need to explore it some more
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21:29:40 <esolangs> [[ZeroGrid2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177318&oldid=177291 * Aadenboy * (+3) /* Execution Rules */ nest lists
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22:29:35 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177319&oldid=177107 * Aadenboy * (+194) /* ESOLANGS */ replace [[Countable]] example program
22:34:32 <esolangs> [[User talk:A()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177320&oldid=177273 * A() * (+264)
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22:44:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Trilime]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177321&oldid=174501 * Aadenboy * (+8) bold + clarify
22:47:28 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177322&oldid=177319 * Aadenboy * (+3) wrong name
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00:13:18 <esolangs> [[Righght]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177323&oldid=177254 * Cool Bungle * (+13)
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06:16:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PhatikChand * New user account
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08:45:38 <esolangs> [[Where is my esolang?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177324&oldid=172932 * Cleverxia * (+1346) /* Examples */
09:51:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:SDGL4RNG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177325&oldid=173477 * Yoyolin0409 * (+91)
10:06:44 <esolangs> [[Plea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177326&oldid=177133 * UnavgAustralian * (+38) Update the Hello World example
10:22:28 <esolangs> [[12 machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177327&oldid=177314 * Dragoneater67 * (+35) BETTER FORMATTING
10:25:04 <esolangs> [[12 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177328&oldid=177327 * Dragoneater67 * (+56) computational class
10:29:36 <esolangs> [[Template:Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177329&oldid=177305 * Ractangle * (-16) this ain't mockupedia, man
10:33:03 <esolangs> [[Bottles of beer on the wall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177330&oldid=177308 * Ractangle * (-46) there was really no need to just scream at out face that this is long
10:33:55 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177331&oldid=177312 * Ractangle * (-24) ok that was definitely uneasary
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11:03:32 <esolangs> [[One Time Cat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177332&oldid=177331 * Dragoneater67 * (+31) /* C */
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11:34:33 <esolangs> [[Subtract]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177333 * C0ffee * (+723) Created page with "'''Substract''' is a stack-based language. == commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! command !! description |- | ! || push 1. |- | - || pop a, pop b, push b-a. |- | : || duplicates the top of the stack. |- | [ || jump past the matching ] if the top of the stack is 0. |-
11:34:57 <esolangs> [[Subtract]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177334&oldid=177333 * C0ffee * (+1) forgot to type s
11:37:41 <esolangs> [[User:C0ffee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177335&oldid=158103 * C0ffee * (+15)
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13:00:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177336&oldid=172804 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+675) /* Someone actually needs to develop an Emmental interpreter in Emmental */
13:34:47 <esolangs> [[Subtract]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177337&oldid=177334 * Cleverxia * (+923) formatting, capitalizaion, intepreter
13:54:15 <esolangs> [[User:Cleverxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177338&oldid=176980 * Cleverxia * (+101) /* Current Esolangs I've created */
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15:11:45 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177339&oldid=176562 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+55) /* Phase 1 */ chars are signed(???)
15:18:10 <esolangs> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177340&oldid=176841 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-7) golfing
15:45:26 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177341&oldid=177286 * BODOKE2801e * (-4) /* Truth-machine */ unnecessary end
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15:51:50 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177342&oldid=177341 * BODOKE2801e * (+33) /* Fibonacci numbers */
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16:29:29 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177343&oldid=177322 * Aadenboy * (+2984) some commentary on my drafts
16:45:51 <esolangs> [[Translated CSharp/Horribly Translated Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177344&oldid=131606 * BODOKE2801e * (+90)
17:17:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KnowItAfterYou * New user account
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17:53:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177345&oldid=177193 * KnowItAfterYou * (+206) /* Introductions */
17:53:44 <esolangs> [[User:KnowItAfterYou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177346 * KnowItAfterYou * (+100) Created page with "I can, do I?, write in english, sure?, but speak spanish. I will create a joke languaje soon... ..."
17:57:05 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177347&oldid=177339 * Aadenboy * (+168) tt is a deprecated tag
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21:22:49 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Loop algebra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177348&oldid=175499 * Aadenboy * (+9)
21:23:20 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Loop algebra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177349&oldid=177348 * Aadenboy * (+3) whoops
21:24:44 <esolangs> [[Iterate/Loop algebra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177350&oldid=177349 * Aadenboy * (+24)
21:48:06 <int-e> Hmm, has there ever been a system of magic that is driven by disbelief? Disbelieve something strongly enough and the world will prove you wrong? :-P
22:25:25 <b_jonas> dunno, I only read a few of Terry Pratchett's books
22:27:55 <int-e> The closest I can think of is that Pratchett has hydrophobes that repel water, who have to be brought up on a strict diet of dehydrated water. And, perhaps vaguely related, Anoia, Goddess of Things That Get Stuck in Drawers.
22:28:58 <int-e> (Not really related at all, but my brain remembered it under this prompt.)
22:29:59 <b_jonas> Discworld has some magic that is powered by belief
22:30:38 <b_jonas> which is the opposite of what you asked for and is probably easier
22:30:44 <b_jonas> but that's why I was reminded of Pratchett
22:32:15 <int-e> I mean he played around with such concepts. There's the vampire story...
22:34:27 <int-e> The vampires in that family were brought up studying all sorts of religious symbols in an attempt to make them ineffectual. The story ends with the vampires recognizing those symbols everywhere and experiencing a ridiculous amount of pain and losing a fight.
22:36:08 <int-e> The opposite thing would probably allure more to Smullyan than to Pratchett :P
22:36:32 <int-e> (Note that in the vampire story, belief ultimately won.)
22:52:55 <b_jonas> int-e: Szatmári Sándor has a story about a cold reader who claims, for work purposes only, that he has oracular powers. He doesn't actually has such powers at the start of the story, instead he gives vague horoscope style advice that his clients think match them. To men with an unrequited love, he tells that the girl will love them back if the client completely abandons his desires to the girl. If the
22:53:01 <b_jonas> client returns to complain, that's proof that he still desires the girl, so he never has to pay the money back for a failed prediction.
22:53:35 <b_jonas> This might count as a minor non-supernatural example for something that works on disbelief.
22:54:33 <fizzie> Can you cleanly separate belief and disbelief? As in, is there a clear difference between disbelief in something existing, and belief in something not existing?
22:54:35 <fizzie> But yeah, in any case, at least the first Pratchett examples I can think of all involve belief making the thing that you think should be, to be, rather than nature proving you _wrong_.
22:56:47 <fizzie> There's the God of Evolution that's maybe some kind of a special case, if not exactly that.
22:57:49 <fizzie> Nobody believes in him, and he himself is an atheist, but it's explained that he believes in evolution as a concept strongly enough to exist because of that. Or something along those lines.
22:58:33 <int-e> the insect guy? great punchline...
23:01:55 <fizzie> I don't know if the Auditors are in somewhere in this general conceptual region as well, since AIUI they don't really believe in any of the things humans do (and are actively trying to get rid of them because it's untidy), but maybe their disbelief doesn't really play into whether those things are real or not.
23:01:56 <b_jonas> SMBC sometimes has evolution or nature as a character, in that sometimes human characters speak with her just like they speak with god
23:05:00 <b_jonas> like https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/evolution-8
23:06:42 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177351&oldid=177342 * BODOKE2801e * (+26) /* Notes */
23:08:17 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177352&oldid=177351 * BODOKE2801e * (-4) /* Notes */
23:11:21 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177353&oldid=177224 * BODOKE2801e * (+158) /* Zeno */
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00:19:35 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177355&oldid=161702 * HecknTarnation * (+0) Fixed minor error
00:44:43 <korvo> https://www.brics.dk/RS/05/1/BRICS-RS-05-1.pdf Interesting paper found during research: there's an infinite r.e. set of fixed-point lambda terms! Moreover the decision procedure could be implemented by a lambda-calculus compiler.
00:52:27 <int-e> Interesting (but misstated; according to the abstract they show that the set of standard fixed point combinators is r.e., while the set of non-standard fixed point combinators is not)
01:04:36 <int-e> Maybe not so interesting. It's pretty obvious that you can enumerate terms Phi with Phi x = x (Phi x) because both terms and conversions are r.e.
01:09:51 <int-e> They make the claim that the complement of the set of non-standard fixed point combinators is r.e. and I don't believe it, because you'd have to enumerate terms Phi where Phi f applies f a number of times to bottom, and bottoms are not r.e. (that would decide the halting problem)
01:10:04 <int-e> a technical report, not peer reviewed, mistakes happen
01:11:10 <int-e> At least I think it's not reviewed? Could be wrong. Reviewers miss stuff too :)
01:15:39 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Wrong Wrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177356&oldid=139156 * PkmnQ * (-1145) I'm reusing this name for a new esolang
02:25:26 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177357&oldid=176430 * Rombito * (+2)
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03:29:33 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177359&oldid=177353 * BODOKE2801e * (+1) /* >||<</nowiki */
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05:42:22 -!- somefan has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ | Need an admin action done on the wiki? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Ais523.
05:43:07 <somefan> i think that should be protected
05:52:23 <esolangs> [[Righght]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177362&oldid=177323 * Cool Bungle * (+8)
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07:55:25 <b_jonas> somefan: we used to change the "discussion, development and deployment" part often, and there are enough active users that we can quickly revert and possibly quiet if someone tries to change the topic to something inappropriate
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11:42:08 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177365&oldid=177210 * Yoyolin0409 * (+6) /* Truth-machine */
11:43:26 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177366&oldid=177365 * Yoyolin0409 * (+21) /* OOP examples */
11:52:48 <esolangs> [[Rickrolling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177367&oldid=176495 * Yoyolin0409 * (+0)
11:53:04 <esolangs> [[Rickrolling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177368&oldid=177367 * Yoyolin0409 * (-6)
11:57:01 <esolangs> [[Smasnug ABrainFIsHCHIHqFRSI9efuck+-~B2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177369&oldid=173345 * Yoyolin0409 * (-16247) /* Python(WIP) */
11:57:14 <esolangs> [[Smasnug ABrainFIsHCHIHqFRSI9efuck+-~B2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177370&oldid=177369 * Yoyolin0409 * (+4) /* Interpreter */
12:23:14 <esolangs> [[SimpleEnglish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177371 * Mrtli08 * (+598) Created page with "SimpleEnglish is just english. <br> ===commands=== NOTE: Things inside () just hold a name. <br> Declare a variable called (name). >> var (name) = 0; (For example Declare a variable called x. turns into var x = 0;) Set variable (name) to (value). >> (name) = 0; In
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13:03:03 <esolangs> [[The bluetooth device is ready to pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177372&oldid=174649 * Yoyolin0409 * (+25) /* Hello world program(string) */
13:04:17 <esolangs> [[The bluetooth device is ready to pair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177373&oldid=177372 * Yoyolin0409 * (-7) /* Instructions */
13:52:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Lehbar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177374 * Mrtli08 * (+120) Created page with "huh?! we need proof for turing for dis --~~~~"
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14:19:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177375&oldid=177345 * SchoolAccount * (+145)
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23:13:15 <ais523> does anyone here know of experiments in using a game controller as an input method for writing computer programs? (ideally those in fairly normal programming languages, rather than needing to invent one for the purpose)
23:13:35 <ais523> I've been wondering about trying to write programs during long/bumpy car/bus journeys and what it would be like
23:48:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Lehbar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177378&oldid=177374 * PkmnQ * (+233)
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23:59:08 <korvo> I don't know of anything that can't be argued into an a11y case study rather than a serious hypothesis about code quality or speed of input. I also can't figure out how to disqualify the experience of typing TI-BASIC on a TI-84 in the back of a turbulent yellow school bus.
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00:40:16 <zzo38> I think I had heard of experiments of programming languages with game controllers before, although I do not remember now what they are.
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00:44:39 <zzo38> Separate mode for command mode and insert mode like vi, might be one thing to help, maybe.
00:51:52 <korvo> Yep. That's a feature of the editors I'm thinking about, from games like Actraiser or Portal 2.
00:53:52 <zzo38> I wonder how well uxntal would work. Depending how many buttons on the game controller (uxn itself defines eight, the same as Game Boy or NES/Famicom).
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01:16:11 <ais523> this is definitely an accessibility question, I think
01:17:47 <zzo38> How many buttons does your game controller have?
01:22:53 <ais523> zzo38: this is mostly a hypothetical, but I could obtain one with quite a lot of buttons if necessary
01:23:40 <ais523> a typical modern game controller has four shoulder buttons, a 4-directional d-pad, four face buttons, two analog sticks that can be pushed in to serve as an extra button, and some special-purpose buttons that would be hard to use for general input
01:25:36 <korvo> I'm mentally already at the bar, speedrunning. I'm imagining entering my name in Zelda 3 with a SNES controller.
01:39:24 <ais523> the game controller I currently own is a generic one designed to be able to emulate a playstation, xbox or gamecube controller
01:39:40 <ais523> although I haven't used it in a while
01:40:30 <ais523> (it also has a button to cause the analog sticks to be quantized as though they were d-pads, in case you want to emulate an older controller type like a game boy's)
01:41:05 <zzo38> Does it not already have a d-pad?
01:43:11 <ais523> yes, you can use that instead
01:43:17 <ais523> but the analog stick is in a better place to press
01:43:18 <korvo> I have a similar pad. A Logitech USB controller. I've got like four of them; they were popular at the time.
01:43:20 <ais523> the left one, at least
01:44:17 <ais523> I have realised that probably I write more comments than I do actual code, in my projects, so the main problem might be to have an efficient way to input text using a game controller
01:44:30 <ais523> the standard "move a cursor along a grid of letters" works to some extent but is extremely slow
01:47:56 <zzo38> If using it for a programming language, then possibly a separate mode might be used for ordinary text than for the programming code syntax. Comments is not the only things where you might do that though; there is also e.g. character strings (although some programs will not use many character strings)
01:50:47 <ais523> and many programs that do use character strings aren't storing human-readable text in them (although some are)
01:51:34 <zzo38> Yes, that is also a valid consideration
01:52:17 <ais523> I feel like for program code, something based around strong typing and syntax similar to that of Java methods would be helpful, so that you could get a fairly list of methods that were applicable to the type of the expression you had written so far
01:53:35 <ais523> actually I think an Emacs-like modal interface would work better than a vi-like one (the difference is that vi uses keypresses to change between modes, whereas an Emacs-like interface holds a key to enter commands and releases it to go back to the equivalent of insert mode)
01:55:30 <ais523> for English text, I suspect the best method involves choosing the word you want from a list of predictions, with the ability to enter an approximation to reorder the list based on a combination of prediction and similarity to the approximation
01:55:52 <ais523> most input methods that I've seen seem to boil down to that
01:56:10 <zzo38> Chording would be another idea, although I do not know how well that works with a game controller
01:56:24 <ais523> mobile phones use it, and most CJK input methods work like that too
01:56:26 <zzo38> (for the purpose of entering English text, I mean, rather than in general)
01:56:44 <ais523> chording works very well on a game controller as long as you aren't chording two face buttons or two opposite d-pad directions
01:57:34 <ais523> (the opposite directions are often blocked in hardware or software, whereas all game controllers I'm aware have hardware/software capable of chording face buttons but it's a physically difficult button combination to press)
01:57:35 <zzo38> Yes, but is it enough combinations when you exclude those combinations that don't work as well?
01:59:05 <ais523> it should be – if you exclude diagonals on the d-pad because they're hard to press accurately, you have 4×4×2⁴ combinations that chord a d-pad direction and face button and any number of shoulder buttons
02:00:41 <ais523> I feel like probably using only two of the shoulder buttons would be desirable if aiming for input speed, though, and not chording face buttons with d-pad because you would have to be careful to release both before pressing the next input
02:01:12 <zzo38> Some might be needed to switch modes (I think the Emacs will not work due to needing to enter different kind of text; in some cases the mode will switch automatically based on what command is entered in the program, but sometimes it is necessary to do so manually).
02:01:29 <zzo38> (If you have four shoulder buttons then it is possible to use other one for such a purpose, I suppose)
02:02:00 <ais523> so 8×2² which is 32 – enough for 26 letters and a few special cases (and the more difficult-to-enter combinations could use other buttons)
02:03:01 <ais523> I think this is totally doable and might actually be faster than a keyboard once you get used to it – but it also seems like it would be difficult to learn
02:03:09 <zzo38> There is 5-bit code such as Baudot code
02:03:32 <ais523> because the input mechanism would have to be learned from scratch, it would make sense to try to get it right first time, rather than ending up with a QWERTY situation
02:04:16 <zzo38> Yes, that seem it would be a good idea, but it might be difficult to do that.
02:05:28 <ais523> apparently some games have used 8 analog stick directions × 4 face buttons to produce a 32-option keyboard
02:06:10 <ais523> that's a clever idea to do chording, you don't have to worry about accidental orthogonal presses while trying to hit the diagonals because the position of the stick only matters when the face button is pressed
02:08:39 <ais523> I am not sure whether 8 is the right number of directions, an analog stick can theoretically distinguish between a very large number of directions but if you have too many a human can't hit them accurately
02:09:49 <ais523> one game I played a lot when I was younger made diagonal inputs easier to hit by using one of the shoulder buttons as a way to filter out orthogonal inputs, so that only diagonal ones would be accepted
02:09:53 <zzo38> More than eight is probably too difficult, and possibly more than four might be difficult (although maybe not); I think using buttons is probably easier, even though there are less combinations (but diagonals will be possible)
02:10:14 <ais523> that might mix well with an "8 directions on the analog stick" approach – you could have ambiguous inputs be interpreted as orthogonal if not holding the button and diagonal if holding the button
02:10:42 <zzo38> Yes, that might work
02:11:09 <zzo38> (although that is for when directions are needed, e.g. in a game; for text input it does not seem relevant since you can use the button combinations directly instead)
02:14:51 <korvo> Gonna take this question to the bar and see if folks have any interesting examples. Back in a few hours. Peace.
02:27:22 * ais523 measures their own typing speed with QWERTY, as a baseline
02:27:29 <ais523> it's around 450 characters per minute, it seems
02:27:43 <ais523> so 7.5 characters a second
02:27:49 <ais523> it may be hard to match that with a game controller input
02:27:57 <ais523> (this was tested on easy, common words)
02:28:36 <ais523> this is much faster than the average person but considerably slower than people who actively aim for typing speed records, which seems about right
02:30:29 <ais523> matching that on a game controller seems difficult, especially if chording is required, but maybe not impossible
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03:26:13 <esolangs> [[Airline Food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177379&oldid=99893 * BODOKE2801e * (+288)
03:37:23 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177380&oldid=177284 * BODOKE2801e * (-24) /* Interpreters */
03:40:50 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177381&oldid=177354 * BODOKE2801e * (+191) /* Syntax */ MEHR
03:42:36 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177382&oldid=177381 * BODOKE2801e * (+64) /* FizzBuzz */ MEHR
03:43:51 <esolangs> [[Self-interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177383&oldid=171185 * BODOKE2801e * (+37) /* Languages known for self-interpretation */
03:56:54 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177384&oldid=177382 * BODOKE2801e * (+543)
03:57:14 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177385&oldid=177384 * BODOKE2801e * (+2) /* Notes */
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05:32:05 <korvo> Folks at the bar were interested but didn't have many examples. A couple folks mentioned Super Mario Maker (2), which is a good example, if buggy.
05:35:06 <korvo> I got a 2:05 in-game time on Super Metroid, which is not great IMO. I did get first-try mockball into early supers, though.
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06:13:59 <zzo38> Which do you think are some rules of Magic: the Gathering, or of some other game (chess, Pokemon, etc) that will only be significant very rarely that a puzzle can be made up that involves it in a way possibly other than what the rule was intended for?
06:16:31 <zzo38> (I have tried to do such things with Hero Hearts, revealing that some things documented as invariant weren't; e.g. the "Explain Death" option is not supposed to affect the behaviour of the game (a replay list is supposed to have the same meaning whether or not this option is enabled, and regardless of what speed it is played back at), but I made a puzzle that depends on it.)
06:17:33 <zzo38> (My implementation of Hero Hearts does not emulate this bug, nor does it emulate some of the related bugs, although some bugs that do not violate these invariants are emulated if they do affect the behaviour of the game.)
07:05:52 <ais523> zzo38: Yu-Gi-Oh has some rules like that but they're convoluted enough that I don't really understand how they work (and some of them may be subjective)
07:06:33 <ais523> it used to have a rule that you cannot perform an action that creates an infinite loop, which some people exploited to win by constructing a gamestate where almost any action by the opponent would create an infinite loop, forcing them to pass their turn
07:07:24 <ais523> and then the rule was changed to match the situation if a loop gets created by a game rule rather than an action, which is that the judge moves the card most responsible for the loop (which is subjective and hard to define) into the graveyard
07:07:56 <ais523> anyway, I should go to bed (thanks for the discussion/ideas korvo)
07:08:12 <ais523> and thanks for the ideas zzo38, too
07:08:24 <korvo> ais523: Good night!
07:08:30 <ais523> it feels like this should be doable but will take some work and practice
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07:11:23 <zzo38> That rule for loops doesn't seem a very good rule for infinite loops; the rule in Magic: the Gathering looks like better to me
07:15:05 <zzo38> (How commonly is rule 731 used in Magic: the Gathering puzzles?) (Although, rule 731.1c says tournaments use different rules for loops)
07:18:39 <zzo38> (Even the rules in Magic: the Gathering are not perfect; one change I would make is to distinguish between implicit draws and explicit draws, with different rules relating to them (and different rules cause each kind), but in both cases the final result of the game will be a draw)
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08:01:44 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else without a quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177386&oldid=177380 * Ractangle * (+24) that is still output only
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10:41:45 <fizzie> I have a vivid recollection of having seen a video of some sort of novel input mechanism, years back, when predictive text input still felt kind of novel, but I can't recall any of the detail so not sure how amenable that would be for gamepad input.
10:45:08 <fizzie> (Found it in an AI-assisted way.)
10:45:29 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software)
10:46:08 <fizzie> I _guess_ you could use that approach with a gamepad, since it only requires a two-dimensional pointing mechanism of some kind (so a single analog stick would suffice), but it'd be throwing away most of the capabilities of one.
10:48:10 <int-e> was this the inspiration for flappy bird :P
10:48:52 <fizzie> I just remembered it because it was so visual. Whoosh.
10:49:37 <fizzie> Apparently (at least according to the 2006 paper) imagined as a text input mechanism for brain-computer interfaces, which sounds plausible enough.
10:51:49 <fizzie> If you've got two eyes, two hands, and a gamepad with two analog sticks, surely you could handle an input system with two independent Dasher squares, say one for individual letters and one for predicted words.
10:51:59 <fizzie> Perhaps presented on some sort of head-mounted display, one per eye.
10:52:46 <int-e> that's a lot of equipment to replace a *check notes* keyboard
10:58:05 <fizzie> AIUI, you're not supposed to *write* programs any more, anyway, you're supposed to just direct "agentic" things that do it for you, so surely you just need to slap a speech-to-text/text-to-speech interface on top of one of those, though.
10:58:16 <fizzie> Okay, on a crowded bus maybe that won't make you the most popular person.
10:59:17 <int-e> Dasher is a cute idea, but I imagine that its cognitive load is way too substantial for using it for anything serious. (The downside of using adaptive predictions, as I believe they do, is that you can't learn fixed input sequences.)
11:01:59 <int-e> Re: AI. https://bsky.app/profile/ianboudreau.com/post/3mgc2aaktak2s resonated strongly with me.
11:03:12 <int-e> (Though if I were to express my own sentiments I'd probably dwell on the subsidy aspect of it too, and the anti-human attitude behind it all ("People? Where WE are going we won't need people!")
11:08:22 <int-e> Like, the outcome will be terrible if this comes crashing down (maybe 2026, maybe 2027...), but I believe the outcome will be worse if any of this shit starts working (the AGI dream, the singularity...). And not because of alignment problems, but because of who is doing this and how they'll use it.
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12:41:38 <b_jonas> ais523: There's an Atari 2600 game called BASIC programming, but it only technically matches your question. You are typing the command and giving commands not the normal ATARI 2600 joystick, but on a pair of controllers that each have 12 buttons in a telephone keypad arrangements. These can be used for multiple different games with printed legend overlay sheets, so they're technically game controllers.
12:41:44 <b_jonas> Normally two separate players use the two controllers, but for BASIC programming they're used by one player.
12:44:58 <b_jonas> ais523: If you're aiming for a bus then I don't think you can count the full range that you mentioned, as in four shoulder buttons, two joysticks, a d-pad and four face buttons. I don't think you can reasonably hold both such a controller and read a display on a bus. You can get close with a Nintendo Switch or Switch 2, but you'll only get two shoulder buttons, not four.
12:47:32 <b_jonas> Also, even just that, two controllers, only works if you're sitting on a bus, I don't think you can reasonably use the normal range of two controllers while standing.
12:48:50 <b_jonas> If you want to write programs while standing on a bus, one of the commercial programmable calculators could work. Their keypad is normally designed to be typed on with one hand while the calculator is sitting on a desk, but they also work for typing with your thumb with the calculator is handheld, that's just slower.
12:51:17 <b_jonas> The TI-92 is an exception, it has an unusual large keyboard that's bigger than you can use with one hand. I don't really know what it's optimized for, as in how you're supposed to operate it. I've seen a working specimen in real life very long ago, but I don't think I operated it, or only for a very short time.
12:52:08 <int-e> If you just want to "manage" your "agents", maybe a Tinder-like interface for proposed changes could suffice ;)
12:52:09 <b_jonas> There exist various hardware designed specifically to work as chorded keyboards, both ones held in one hand and ones held in two hands.
12:52:56 <b_jonas> Btw Atari 2600 Basic programming is very limited, but that's because the Atari 2600 has very little RAM.
12:53:47 <b_jonas> I wonder if they made a better version for the Atari 5200 .
13:11:52 <fizzie> I've also only very briefly seen a TI-92. It wasn't particularly popular at school, I imagine mostly because it had a CAS, and therefore it was forbidden to use as a calculator in exams. We "all" just had TI-86s (the school ran a discount bulk order thing), except a few people who already had a TI-85 and continued to use it, and one or two oddball HP RPN calculator users.
13:14:21 <fizzie> TI-86 had come out in 1996, I think I entered the level of school where a graphing calculator was expected (years 7-12 if numbered consecutively starting from 1) in 1997. So it was the hot new thing.
13:15:41 <fizzie> Actually it must've been 1996 already, because I got out of there in 2002. Off-by-one errors.
13:19:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: I never went to any schooling where a handheld graphing or programmable calculator was expected. Only a minority of students had anything like that. Programming and drawing graphs on desktop PCs in a computer lab seating twenty-something people was expected occasionally.
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13:21:11 <fizzie> We had a sorta slightly "math-focused" line, maybe that accounted for it.
13:21:28 <fizzie> The teacher had a slide projector attachment for their TI-85.
13:22:02 <int-e> oh advanced optics
13:22:12 <fizzie> As in, a bulky transparent LCD display that you could put on top of an overhead projector (that you would put slides on) to show the display mirrored on the wall.
13:22:41 <fizzie> You couldn't plug it into a regular TI-85, it had to be a special model.
13:23:19 <b_jonas> yeah, a special display that doesn't melt from the projector
13:23:34 <fizzie> They'd written a TI-BASIC program that made like a stage curtain kind of an effect followed by a "<teacher's name> presents" box.
13:23:38 <fizzie> They were _very_ proud of that.
13:24:26 <b_jonas> I thought that's the part that you do with hand-drawn transparency slide stop motion
13:24:44 <b_jonas> before you put the calculator screen on
13:24:52 <fizzie> (Also I'm not sure why I'm defaulting to a gender-neutral pronoun here, there was no ambiguity about that. Probably from writing interview feedback recently.)
13:25:35 <fizzie> (I guess Finnish only has the one singular third-person pronoun, and this was a Finnish person I'm talking about, could be that too.)
13:25:58 <fizzie> Well, it's more impressive when it's Computer Graphics™.
13:26:12 <int-e> hopefully they won't mind
13:26:50 <b_jonas> can you connect that projector to the students' TI-86 calculator so they can show stuff projected to the whole class too?
13:27:20 <b_jonas> ah no, you already answered
13:27:25 <b_jonas> "You couldn't plug it into a regular TI-85"
13:28:15 <fizzie> Yeah, sadly no. It didn't do it over the link cable protocol.
13:28:34 <fizzie> Which as I recall is kind of an interesting protocol as well, it doesn't have a fixed baud rate, it's an async kind of a thing.
13:35:58 <fizzie> Yeah, assuming I can trust Gemini (but this description _sounds_ like the one I've seen but couldn't find), it's a bit of an oddity in that there's no clock line as such, it's a three-wire protocol with ground and two data lines ("red" and "white"). To send a bit, one side pulls either the red (0) or white (1) line down, and then the other end acknowledges that by pulling the _other_ line down
13:36:00 <fizzie> (which the sender waits for).
13:36:16 <fizzie> So it runs at whatever speed the two endpoints involved can manage to run this process.
13:36:55 <b_jonas> anyway, for the original question, something where the keypad looks like a good calculator keypad but has more capability to detect multiple keys pressed at the same time could work as chorded input on the bus I think
13:36:55 <fizzie> And the calculator ROM code just bit-bangs it out with the Z80 CPU instead of using an UART or something.
13:37:00 <b_jonas> for one handed typing that is
13:37:34 <b_jonas> you'd need one of those chorded palm thingies if you want to use multiple fingers to type
14:20:14 <b_jonas> oh, it's "long/bumpy car/bus journeys", not short public transport ride to school, so sitting down can be assumed. then two controllers is fine.
14:20:23 <b_jonas> or like two hands on a controller
14:20:39 <b_jonas> you might even be able to affix the display on the seat in front of you
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14:33:41 <ais523> fizzie: that wire protocol does sound a lot like async electronics (which I've worked a lot with at a previous job) – the usual protocol I would use for that in async programming uses three data wires (one for which the sender changes the logic level to send a 0, one for which the sender changes the logic level to send a 1, and one which the receiver changes the logic level to acknowledge). but that's an interesting way of reducing the number of wires
14:34:17 <ais523> (it does seem a little inefficient because after sending a bit, you have to unsend it and then wait for the caller to acknowledge the unsend, because you can't visibly pull down a wire that someone else is also pulling down)
14:50:02 <b_jonas> you've probably seen the recent video about another interesting async electronic protocol: https://www.linusakesson.net/hardware/frontpanel/index.php
14:50:41 <b_jonas> I think technically that's async from one side only, whereas the link cable between calculators is async both ways
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15:35:10 <ais523> the problem with async in practice is that there's always at least one part of the circuit where wire propagation delay matters (in the sense that if it's too large or too small the circuit malfunctions) – there's a theorem that limits the computational class of what you can do without that to something obviously useless
15:35:44 <ais523> of course, it's possible to manufacture circuits like that in practice, but it means that one of the simplifying assumptions you'd normally use no longer holds
15:35:48 <ais523> (this is async hardware, specifically)
15:44:41 <b_jonas> sure, but we don't want fully async hardware, just an async interface between two hardware that do have reasonable timing limits inside
15:45:11 <b_jonas> and that is possible, it just needs more wires than typical interfaces, and has a bit of overhead
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15:46:47 <fizzie> Yeah, the TI protocol is a four-step one. Sender pulls one line down and waits; receiver acks it by pulling the other line down and waits; sender reacts to the ack by letting the first line float back high and waits; receiver reacts by letting the other line also go back up; and that finally signals to the sender it can start transmitting the next bit.
15:47:00 <b_jonas> so you use it where the few extra wires and the overhead doesn't matter too much, but you want portability between all sorts of different hardware, and possibly software control without too much of a specific controller
15:48:53 <b_jonas> I think this is so that you can drive this from software on a PC where the operating system can sometimes take control from the communications software for long time unpredictably
15:49:32 <b_jonas> without needing extra communications hardware or special support in the operating system
15:52:14 <fizzie> There were also various more or less kosher ways of wiring the link cable to a PC, including the "$4 serial link" https://www.ticalc.org/images/cables/seriallinkpic.gif , the "$5 parallel link", and for the posh, the PIClink (which uses a PIC16F84 microcontroller to translate between the calculator and RS232 in a way compatible with TI's official software).
15:52:23 <fizzie> And of course also the official overpriced solution from TI.
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19:55:27 <esolangs> [[Rotator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177388&oldid=164777 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+7762) Introduced an examples section comprehending two incipial members, added an interpreter implementation in Common Lisp, and modified the page category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
20:10:52 <esolangs> [[Rickrolling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177389&oldid=177368 * Hotcrystal0 * (+27) adding another category
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20:52:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177390&oldid=177375 * JanitorRaus * (+262) /* Introductions */
20:55:29 <esolangs> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177391&oldid=167714 * JanitorRaus * (+14) Replace dead mega link for Langton's Ant. For those who were missing this, enjoy!
21:05:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177392&oldid=177390 * Frog * (+162) /* Introductions */
21:05:49 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177393&oldid=175502 * Frog * (+237) /* if (x == 0) { code } */
21:09:30 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177394&oldid=177393 * Frog * (-10) /* if (x == 0) { code } */
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21:25:58 <ais523> I just suddenly realised that a search engine could detect adverts, or even cookie popups, as a method of filtering out websites that people probably don't want in their search results
21:26:15 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been doing research into how chorded keyboards normally work
21:26:46 <ais523> I don't think it's the greatest fit for a games console, they mostly rely on all possible pressed/non-pressed combinations
21:27:31 <ais523> I also looked into the keyboards that are used to set typing speed records, and they have a number of interesting differences from regular keyboards
21:28:35 <ais523> mostly they're based around a grid system where you can press between the keys in order to press two adjacent keys simultaneously (to act as a virtual key in between), this is combined with chording to allow the fingers on each hand to type consonants / consonant clusters simultaneously
21:29:19 <ais523> and the thumbs type the vowels, using a similar method but with only four states for each thumb (left key, right key, between the keys, or unpressed) to provide 15 different vowel clusters (or not at all to indicate no vowels)
21:30:12 <ais523> the chords for the fingers are normally pressed in a roughly horizontal line, rather than having the fingers move upwards/downwards individually
21:30:34 <ais523> and all this is combined with a dictionary to handle issues like "English actually has more than 15 different vowel clusters"
21:31:08 <ais523> this seems difficult to replicate on a game controller but it might be possible to adopt some of the same techniques…
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21:37:40 <b_jonas> ais523: typing speed records is probably not what you want to go for for programming, because in programming the bottleneck is usually not how fast you can type
21:38:21 <ais523> but my thoughts were more along the lines of "the same techniques that are used to change normal-speed input methods into super-fast ones may change excessively slow ones into normal speed"
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23:28:59 <esolangs> [[Alkmini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177395 * Arctenik * (+7501) Create article
23:31:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Alkmini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177396 * Arctenik * (+10008) Add compilation notes
23:36:08 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177397&oldid=177269 * Arctenik * (+14) /* A */ Add Alkmini
23:37:29 <esolangs> [[User:Arctenik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177398&oldid=142078 * Arctenik * (+14) Add Alkmini
00:10:30 <esolangs> [[Lehbar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177399&oldid=177387 * BODOKE2801e * (-63) /* Syntax */
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00:21:26 <esolangs> [[Rotator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177400&oldid=177388 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+8) Improved the interpreter's type specifiers and code formatting.
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10:05:29 <esolangs> [[X-EX.Load]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177403 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2598) Created page with "'''X-EX.Load''' is a set of [[Underload]] "subsets", which are believed by their creator, [[User:Yayimhere]], to all be less powerful than Underload(though this is unconfirmed in certain cases). Each of the subsets have their own name. Each is defined by th
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12:12:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177408&oldid=177392 * Pokemonnoob369 * (+153) /* Introductions */
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17:31:43 <esolangs> [[Homunculus fallacy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177412&oldid=169384 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Tricks and tips */
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17:51:50 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177414&oldid=177343 * Aadenboy * (+245) /* interpreters */
17:52:58 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177415&oldid=177414 * Aadenboy * (+100) /* interpreters */ more stats actually
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19:30:15 <esolangs> [[StackPoint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177416&oldid=169493 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1011) Introduced an examples section comprehending two incipial members, added a hyperlink to my interpreter implementation on GitHub, modified the Unimplemented page category tag to Implemented, and supplemented two further tags.
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03:35:02 <korvo> Do we have a page on Cunningham's Game? Maybe there's a better-known name for it? Is it on-topic?
03:35:51 <korvo> For what it's worth, this is the game played by repeatedly attempting to correct somebody, only to find that your correction it self incorrect. A chain of comments, increasingly varied and unhinged, which are slightly wrong.
03:36:41 <korvo> For example, here's a start: This year, I'm growing peppers! My favorite is the *habanera*.
03:37:58 <korvo> The oldest popular example I know of is 2005, Penny Arcade https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/02/04/linguaphiles-unite but I wouldn't be surprised if it arose on Usenet first.
03:41:39 <ais523> I don't think it's an esolang
03:42:16 <ais523> I've seen people do it on Reddit, and it's hard to tell whether the first incorrect correction is intentional or not (the others clearly are, though)
03:42:23 <ais523> but I try to avoid Reddit nowadays
03:43:14 <korvo> It's on my mind specifically because it seems to only arise on some specific forums. I just saw it on HN but I know that it's not something that happens on Lobsters, precisely because Lobsters wants to not be Reddit.
03:43:40 <korvo> I've seen it on Imgur, which is Reddit-related. Also a variety of other websites. I haven't really been keeping track though.
04:01:06 <b_jonas> man, all these websites hidden behind these javascript+cookie contraptions are annoying. I bet they're like the DRMs where they often don't let your intended customers access the website but doesn't really stop anyone that the website owners wanted to keep away.
04:06:31 <b_jonas> as someone who occasionally wants to bulk download from websites, it hurts me
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06:10:00 <esolangs> [[ZecZec]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177417&oldid=177402 * BODOKE2801e * (+54) mehr
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09:55:03 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177420&oldid=177222 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+896) /* thoughts */ MathML really does NOT want me to see my incorrect mathematical proof
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10:24:28 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177421&oldid=177303 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+178) categorize
10:24:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Dragoneater67mobile * moved [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip/67 machine]] to [[67 machine]]
10:25:17 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177424&oldid=177295 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+30)
10:27:49 <esolangs> [[((()))(((())))=5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177425&oldid=176972 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+25)
10:37:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/wipwipwip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177426&oldid=177315 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-10)
10:43:37 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177427&oldid=175802 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+12)
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12:16:57 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177428&oldid=177118 * InLuaIKnow * (+1337) /* Lua (made by User:InLuaIKnow) */
12:21:18 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177429&oldid=177428 * InLuaIKnow * (+48)
12:26:54 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177430&oldid=177394 * Frog * (-1) /* if (x == 0) { code } */
12:28:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177431&oldid=177429 * InLuaIKnow * (-90)
12:52:10 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177432&oldid=176868 * Widuruwana * (+193) Updated the Architecture & Memory Model section to reflect the most recent release
12:54:36 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177433&oldid=177432 * Widuruwana * (+51) Updated confess and wonder descriptions to reflect latest release
12:55:37 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177434&oldid=177433 * Widuruwana * (+43) Updated Fibonacci Sequence
12:56:47 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177435&oldid=177434 * Widuruwana * (+6034) Added 99 Bottles of bear program
13:03:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177436&oldid=176867 * Widuruwana * (+574) Replied to Dragoneater67mobile
13:04:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177437&oldid=177436 * Widuruwana * (+5) fixed a minor wording error
13:08:03 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177438&oldid=177435 * Widuruwana * (-26) Added Turing Machine Status to reflect recent release
13:21:44 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177439&oldid=177438 * Corbin * (+29) Tagging as generated.
13:23:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177440&oldid=177437 * Corbin * (+184) /* Generated by AI */ new section
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14:50:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177441&oldid=177440 * Widuruwana * (-184)
14:53:27 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177442&oldid=177439 * Widuruwana * (-337)
14:53:50 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177443&oldid=177442 * Widuruwana * (-15)
15:06:22 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177444&oldid=177443 * Widuruwana * (-115)
15:12:01 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177445&oldid=177444 * Widuruwana * (-44)
15:16:38 <korvo> I think that this is a standard case of somebody using a bot (Claude, I think) and then trying to fix it up later. The first version of their GH README gives it away.
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15:20:03 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177446&oldid=177445 * Widuruwana * (-61)
15:23:09 <int-e> LOL why does every commit to README.md add a new line at the end.
15:25:02 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177447&oldid=177446 * Widuruwana * (-5)
15:25:27 <korvo> https://github.com/widuruwana/ivory/issues/1 I've found that in these cases a nice thing to do is write up a one-paragraph issue and see whether I get a slop reply.
15:27:16 <korvo> (The standard approach for the first issue is to check timers before and after sleeping, to see how long we *actually* slept, and then compute a moving average sleep time which gives an offset. For the second issue, check timers after and before sleeping instead.)
15:42:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177448&oldid=177441 * Widuruwana * (-3)
15:42:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177449&oldid=177448 * Widuruwana * (+1)
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16:05:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177450&oldid=177449 * Widuruwana * (+1435) /* Technical clarification on v1.1.0 and Authorship */ new section
16:08:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177451&oldid=177450 * Widuruwana * (+91) Forgot to sign
16:12:41 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177452 * Lykaina * (+6251) Copying contents of GitHub Wiki Page to Esolangs. (version 0.7a0)
16:14:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177453&oldid=177397 * Lykaina * (+13) /* A */
16:19:01 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177454&oldid=177452 * Aadenboy * (-14) remove h1 header + shorten source + formatting
16:23:13 <esolangs> [[Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177455&oldid=177447 * Aadenboy * (+0) fix category
16:24:18 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177456&oldid=177454 * Lykaina * (+11) /* Command Groups */ fixing table
16:25:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177457&oldid=177451 * Aadenboy * (+184) revert removal of [[User:Corbin]]'s message
16:26:20 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177458&oldid=177456 * Lykaina * (+5) /* Full Lines */ fixing table
16:27:15 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177459&oldid=177458 * Aadenboy * (+0) vbar for clarity
16:27:26 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177460&oldid=177459 * Aadenboy * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/177459|177459]] by [[Special:Contributions/Aadenboy|Aadenboy]] ([[User talk:Aadenboy|talk]])
16:34:13 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177461&oldid=177460 * Lykaina * (+30) /* Initial Letters Tables */ Clarifying something.
16:35:42 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177462&oldid=177461 * Lykaina * (-28) /* Command Groups and Full Line Commands */ Fixing section
16:37:44 <korvo> Indeed. Very thoughtful of them.
16:46:16 <b_jonas> korvo: Timers reminds me of when I first used libcurl's async interface, called curl_multi, that lets you integrate the library into any event loop of your choice. The library tells you which file descriptors it wants to wait on for reading or writing, and also a duration for when its next timeout is. The problem is, when I woke the library up from the event loop exactly when it asked, the library often
16:46:22 <b_jonas> decided that I called it back too early and there's nothing to handle yet and I should wait another 0 milliseconds. This resulted in stupid busy loops that lasted for about a millisecond each time.
16:46:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177463&oldid=177457 * Corbin * (+974) /* Technical clarification on v1.1.0 and Authorship */ No worries!
16:47:31 <korvo> b_jonas: Wow, that's amazing. I wonder what the right solution should be.
16:49:54 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177464&oldid=177462 * Lykaina * (+11) /* Command Groups */ fixing conversion error
17:02:45 * Lykaina really hopes that Afth64 is actually Turing-Complete.
17:03:26 <Lykaina> the mechanism that made Afth Turing-Complete is still there
17:03:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177465&oldid=177463 * Widuruwana * (+331) Replied to Mr. Corbin
17:04:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177466&oldid=177465 * Widuruwana * (+1) minor mistype
17:05:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ivory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177467&oldid=177466 * Widuruwana * (-184) Removing AI tag per discussion and consensus with Mr. Corbin on the Talk page.
17:10:57 <b_jonas> korvo: in the short term, just add 1 millisecond to the timeout that curl_multi reports.
17:12:53 <korvo> b_jonas: ...Yeah, me too.
17:39:26 <Lykaina> attempting to port the RPNCALC example from Afth to Afth64
17:48:47 <esolangs> [[Smolder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177468&oldid=175581 * BODOKE2801e * (-1) User:Aadenbpoy
18:05:56 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177469&oldid=177464 * Lykaina * (+712) /* Examples */ Adding RPN Calculator
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18:42:37 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177470&oldid=177424 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-31) yipee ig
18:47:52 <esolangs> [[PizzaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177471&oldid=168795 * Jay * (+1) /* Welcome to the PizzaScript site! */
18:50:13 <esolangs> [[PizzaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177472&oldid=177471 * Jay * (+132) /* Instalation */
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18:59:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:PizzaScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177473 * Jay * (+132) Created page with "= '''Welcome to Talk!''' = === Where you can post questions and I will try to answer them. === <br/> You are free to edit this page."
19:20:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:PizzaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177474&oldid=177473 * Corbin * (+155)
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19:33:40 * Lykaina is trying to determine how to define methods in a future version of Afth64
19:34:27 <APic> Good Night, cu *
19:37:47 <Lykaina> that is, while still being compatible with Afth64 0.7, the current version.
19:40:48 <b_jonas> korvo: the longer term solution is to integrate more tightly with an event loop in such a way that instead of curl_multi querying the OS for which handle is readable/writable and the current time, it trusts what the event loop reports it, and if the event loop tells it that the timeout occurred then it tursts that. but libcurl wants to be easy to use with not much code from the user, which is why they
19:41:38 <b_jonas> but since they only give you a timeout at millisecond precision, calling them one more millisecond late is fine. libcurl only uses these timers for timeouts that don't need to be precise.
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19:53:11 <Lykaina> i think i can use a macro-like format to do it.
19:54:29 <korvo> b_jonas: That makes sense. This turns out to also matter for CPU-bound cooperative scheduling, not just for sockets.
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20:15:59 <Lykaina> The word S1OUT with definition _2IOUISn_2I_1LISnH._2-I_1LISn would output everything in stack 1 to stdout, but only if I modify the code to be able to handle the formatting code 'n', meaning newline.
20:19:02 <Lykaina> no...that would mess up the line order for jumps
20:27:22 <Lykaina> {_2IOUIS}\n{_2I_1LIS}\n{H._2-I_1LIS}
20:29:39 <korvo> No worries, it's allowed.
20:31:07 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox/Kiosk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177475 * Ractangle * (+426) Created page with "'''Kiosk''' is an esoteric programming language based on Market kiosks, created by [[User:Ractangle]] ==Syntax== All Kiosk programs start with opening a kiosk (and also the location but it's optional): A kiosk gets created, called "''name''" whic
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21:02:20 <Lykaina> of course, give a word alternate definitions.
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21:51:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177476&oldid=177174 * Tommyaweosme * (+155) /* why */
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23:27:31 <aadenboy> hmm I should continue regularly connecting to here
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00:02:59 <ais523> so I have decided that analog sticks are actually a fairly terrible input method
00:03:06 <ais523> (after a lot of experimentation with an actual game controller)
00:03:11 <ais523> but the d-pad and face buttons are promising
00:07:40 <aadenboy> what about the shoulder buttons?
00:20:25 <ais523> they're a bit like the shift keys on keyboards
00:20:32 <ais523> you can use them but they're awkward to press at the same time as keys near them
00:21:09 <ais523> (it's possible but slows you down a bit – professional typists used to be taught to always use the shift key on the hand opposite the one they were pressing the key they were shifting with)
00:21:21 <aadenboy> really? I haven't encountered that issue
00:21:37 <aadenboy> probably because I always use my left pinky for left shift
00:23:08 <aadenboy> you can also only really use your thumbs to press the d-pad and face buttons so those ones would be left to your index and middle fingers
00:23:15 <aadenboy> pretty easy to press at the same time
00:23:26 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think that applies to the controller, at least the way I imagine you're using it. for keyboard, you have to move your hand position to reach the shift keys with your 5th finger because they're in an awkward position, and that affects the fingers on the same hand. but on a controller, your 1st or 2nd fingers are pressing the shoulder/trigger/bumper buttons, and I think that doesn't
00:23:32 <b_jonas> influence much how you're handling the d-pad and face buttons with your thumbs.
00:24:19 <ais523> I actually found it affected me more on a controller – I normally use the little finger on my same hand for pressing shift, but on the controller I was having problems pressing the right bumper and right face buttons at the same time
00:24:23 <b_jonas> the problem is that there are too few combinations. only like 4*5*4 because I assume two shoulder buttons can be in 4 combinations, d-pad can be neutral or one of four directions, and while holding these you press one of the four face buttons.
00:24:53 <ais523> you can press the diagonals reliably on a d-pad, and can on most designs press two adjacent face buttons reliably as well
00:25:12 <ais523> although, there will be a glitch on the way to the diagonal where it looks orthogonal, and your program needs to take that into account
00:25:28 <b_jonas> ok, that might give you enough combinations then
00:25:57 <ais523> I found two systems that were usable, the second one is actually fairly fast even with only an hour or so of practice
00:26:01 <ais523> but I'm still refining it
00:26:15 <ais523> I need to work out how much of the frequency of "g" in English is from "ing" and how much is other uses
00:26:56 <aadenboy> are independent button presses (only d-pad/only one face button) counted as a keystroke?
00:28:14 <ais523> based on my experimentation, I think you want to use independent presses as much as possible
00:28:22 <ais523> they might be slightly slower than pairs but they have much lower cognitive load
00:29:16 <ais523> let's see, my word frequency data has 9606573871 "ing", 32721311168 "g", so about one third of "g"s come from "ing"
00:29:58 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177477&oldid=177431 * InLuaIKnow * (+579)
00:30:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177478&oldid=177453 * InLuaIKnow * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
00:34:15 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*g\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:34:17 <HackEso> get got gotten go gone knowingly canning good goodness liking right rightful rightfully rightly rightness seeing thinking thought give gave given giving something telling tellingly thing through wrought again against although though anything begin began begun big bring brought caring change changed changing during government great greatly greatness group high highly highness homing including interesting interestingly large largely lasting long longish lovi
00:36:57 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/^\w*g\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:36:58 <HackEso> get go good right give something thing through again against although anything begin big bring change during government great group high large long might night nothing program age ago along among college design enough everything fight figure game general girl grow guy light morning sign strong suggest together wrong young according agency agree argue average building campaign challenge charge congress daughter degree dog drug eight energy evening feeling f
00:37:38 <esolangs> [[Righght]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177479&oldid=177362 * Cool Bungle * (+1)
00:43:27 <ais523> b_jonas: is that a list of the most common words that contain "g"?
00:43:42 <ais523> ah no, "although" doesn't
00:44:36 <ais523> the existence of the "gh" digraph was already an obstacle for me earlier, by throwing off phonetics-based reasoning about which letter combinations were likely
00:49:31 <ais523> <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*k\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:49:35 <ais523> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*k\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:49:36 <HackEso> know knew knowingly known like liking look make take taken took think thinking back lifelike okay OK talk work works ask childlike keep kept thank thankful thankfully thankless thanks week weeks black blackness book booked bookish break broke broken businesslike kid kidding kill killed kind kindly market marketing pick quick quickly quickness speak spoke spoken walk walking warlike attack bank banking block blocked check checked checking dark darkly darkne
00:49:43 <ais523> sorry for misquoting you
00:50:46 <ais523> oh, I forgot about leading "kn", it didn't come up in the words I was testing on
00:50:59 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*q[^u]\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:51:57 <ais523> I don't think there are many words starting "nk", I could use that as an alternative
00:52:41 <b_jonas> aadenboy: https://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts-readme/#223frq search for "parenthisized"
00:53:22 <b_jonas> they don't follow the normal methodology of how Alan created this list
00:54:38 <b_jonas> though I don't understand how the regex matches the parenthesis part or how it gets printed otherwise
00:55:58 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*q[^u]*\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:55:59 <HackEso> question quick quickly quickness quite require required cheque quality quiet quietly quietness consequence equal equally equipment frequent frequently quarter request requested square squared squarely technique unique uniquely uniqueness acquire acquired adequate adequately equivalent frequency inquiry enquiry Iraqi) \ qualify qualified qualifying queen quit quote quoted requirement sequence sequencing squeeze squeezing subsequent subsequently acquisition
00:58:28 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w*q(?!u)\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
00:58:41 <aadenboy> got rid of the parentheses though
00:59:09 <aadenboy> silly english orthography rules
01:02:18 <ais523> uh oh, "pocketknife" (all other "kn" words I've found have it at the start or after [csnlraeiouy])
01:02:48 <ais523> oh, and "slipknot"/"topknot" have it after a "p"
01:02:51 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177480&oldid=177477 * InLuaIKnow * (+28)
01:03:34 <ais523> looks like neither "tnk" nor "pnk" are in any word in my word list, so I can just allow those to be used to write "tkn"/"pkn"
01:03:55 <ais523> aadenboy: most rare letter combinations only appear in the middle of compound words
01:05:00 <ais523> what causes all these problem is that I'm working on a system where the only way to type certain combinations is to insert an extra letter and then backspace over it
01:05:12 <ais523> and trying to ensure that those combinations never come up in actual words
01:05:49 <ais523> English spelling and pronunciation is, while not regular, regular enough that you can mostly prove combinations impossible based on things like voicing
01:06:11 <ais523> but! normally the voiced version of a voiceable letter is rare than the unvoiced version
01:06:32 <ais523> this is true for most letters but "k" is much rarer than "g", even if you add a special case for "-ing" to remove those "g" from the frequencies
01:07:24 <ais523> so I have been experimenting with swapping "k" and "g" for ease of typing, but that allows some untypeable combinations to sneak through and thus I need special cases for them
01:10:13 <ais523> in the system I'm working on any letter can appear after [aeiouylr] so those aren't problematic, any letter can appear before a vowel, and "cg", "sg", "mk" basically never appear before consonants so they can be used for "ck", "sk", "nk" respectively
01:10:50 <b_jonas> ais523: https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/q/79223/ lists a bunch of letter combinations that appear as infix in only one english word, such as "rsd" which only occurs in "thursday"
01:10:58 <ais523> but words like "knickknack" and "pocketknife" break the typing rules
01:11:08 <ais523> b_jonas: ooh, interesting, I'll see how many fit my rules
01:11:12 <b_jonas> which I think suggests that you'll run into a lot of such problmes
01:12:02 <ais523> let's see how many would be problematic
01:13:32 <ais523> "ekb" would be problematic if followed by another consonant (except l or r); everything else is typable regardless of context
01:14:46 <ais523> oh, "hq" couldn't be typed if not followed by "u", but I'm kind-of assuming there's a u there :-D
01:15:37 <b_jonas> on the other hand, I once searched Irregular Webcomics for rare letter pairs at the *start* of words, as a way to find typos. the most common false positives were words like "fhtangn" that appear related to Cthulhu. I also learned that "aj" starts only one english word, "ajar", but there are basically no other letter pairs that start only one word. in theory there's "bdellium" but that's a word I only
01:15:43 <b_jonas> encounter when people talk about strange words.
01:16:58 <b_jonas> TAOCP talks about starting letter pairs in english language by the way, in volume 3
01:17:32 <ais523> believe it or not "fhtangn" doesn't break any of my rules about which letters can appear next to which
01:18:30 <ais523> the basic idea I have is to assign 16 of the most common letters to the 16 possible presses of one thumb (orthogonals and diagonals of the thumbs on each hand)
01:18:53 <ais523> and then for the other 8, you keep holding the letter you pressed with one hand while you press the next letter with the other
01:19:36 <b_jonas> it wasn't just "fhtangn", that's just the most common of those words
01:19:40 <ais523> and that swaps the consonant out for a rarer version, so it works if the rare consonant is either preceded or followed by a vowel (l and r are vowels)
01:20:16 <ais523> to clarify, l and r aren't *always* vowels in English, but they're vowels often enough that I put them on the vowels thumb to avoid conflicts (along with y)
01:21:02 <ais523> "dazzle" is a good example
01:21:36 <ais523> you can't pronounce that word without holding the "l" vowel-style, because the "e" is silent
01:22:11 <b_jonas> of course if you want this for programming then the user will often type things that aren't english words
01:22:14 <ais523> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+l\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:22:15 <HackEso> knowingly all could justly rightful rightfully rightly timeless well wellness will willful willfully would also call called evenly firstly lifeless lifelike little manliness manly needless needlessly only overly people real really should still stillness talk tell telling tellingly told useful usefully usefulness useless although always badly believe careful carefully careless carelessly carelessness child childish childless childlike children close closed
01:22:48 <ais523> I don't believe "knowingly" is the most common word containing an "l" not at the start, maybe it's in a comment
01:23:02 <ais523> b_jonas: well, I think programming will mostly be using intellisense-style autocomplete
01:23:13 <ais523> so this would only be necessary for comments and newly introduced variable names
01:23:54 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+[^aeiou]e?l\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:23:55 <HackEso> knowingly all justly rightfully rightly timeless well wellness will willful willfully call called evenly firstly lifeless lifelike little manliness manly needless needlessly only overly people really still stillness tell telling tellingly usefully useless badly carefully careless carelessly carelessness childless childlike closely differently early endless endlessly faceless fatherless fatherly friendliness friendly greatly headless helpfully helpless help
01:23:57 <b_jonas> ais523: no, this is a lemmatized word list, so "knowingly" appears under the heading of "know", and "know" is common
01:25:49 <ais523> anyway, out of those words, "all", "could", "people", "should", "talk", "told", "although", "always", "child", "childless", "childlike" are using "l" in a vowel-like way
01:26:04 <ais523> interestingly, "children" isn't
01:26:21 <ais523> and that changes the pronounciation of the first "i" compared to "child"/"childless"/"childlike"
01:26:27 <b_jonas> for keyboard testing you probably want 12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3lem.txt instead to check if the most frequent words work
01:26:38 <b_jonas> because that lists all the plurals and inflections
01:26:40 <ais523> oh, I already have a word frequency list on my computer
01:26:56 <ais523> not lemmatized or even case-quotiented
01:27:10 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3lem.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+(?<![aeiou])e?l(?![aiou])\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:27:26 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+(?<![aeiou])e?l(?![aiou])\w*/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:27:27 <HackEso> knowingly all justly rightfully rightly timeless well wellness will willful willfully call called evenly firstly lifeless little manly needless needlessly only overly people really still stillness tell telling tellingly usefully useless badly carefully careless carelessly carelessness childless closely differently early endless endlessly faceless fatherless fatherly felt friendly greatly headless help helped helpful helpfully helpless helplessly helplessne
01:27:40 <b_jonas> aadenboy: it's not in HackEso, sorry. I didn't upload the whole 12dicts
01:27:52 <ais523> The with a capital T is the tenth most common word when you don't case-quotient, apparently
01:28:08 <ais523> the of and to in a is that for The
01:28:14 <b_jonas> aadenboy: you can download them from https://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/ and even upload any of it to HackEso if you want
01:28:18 <ais523> (based on google ngrams data)
01:28:41 <b_jonas> `cat /hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/readme.hackeso
01:28:43 <HackEso> http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/
01:29:25 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3lem.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+(?<![aeiou])e?l(?![aeiouy])\w+|\w+(?<![aeiou])e?les?\b/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:29:44 <aadenboy> `perl -eopen$R,"/hackenv/share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"; while(<$R>){while(/\w+(?<![aeiou])e?l(?![aeiouy])\w+|\w+(?<![aeiou])e?les?\b/gi){ print "$& " }}
01:29:46 <HackEso> well wellness willful willfully little people stillness tell telling tellingly felt help helped helpful helpfully helpless helplessly helplessness held smallness world worldly able fell fullness himself modelling possible probable sell selling simple table article available cell couple example handle hell hellish herself itself middle myself single skillful skillfully style themselves trouble welcome welcoming yourself yourselves battle bottle circle comfo
01:40:33 <ais523> I wrote a regex to find words that have conflicts under my system
01:40:43 <ais523> most of them end -ms, I think I need a special case for that
01:42:41 <ais523> that's easy enough to add a special case for
01:44:07 <ais523> m versus n in English is a complicated topic, they're almost allophones and act like that in a lot of contexts, but in some words the difference is important
01:44:25 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think I completely understood what you said earlier, but (1) it sounds like you're making a system where one hand presses the vowels and the other hand the consonants. I think that's a good idea of which the dvorak keyboard is a bad execution. (2) it sounds like you're making a system where most of the common letters are typed by single keys (or combinations of two adjacent keys pressed
01:44:31 <b_jonas> with one digit). that sounds dangerous, because that can result in a system where it's easy to type fast but if you try to speed up then presses from different hands or digits will start to overlap in time, and if you assign those overlapping combinations new meanings that can break your typing.
01:44:58 <ais523> b_jonas: I originally tried it the other way, where overlapping was the default
01:45:15 <ais523> but half the time you're pressing two keys in a row with the same hand anyway, so it sets a speed limit
01:45:55 <ais523> and it turns out that to avoid conflicts the letters that require overlaps mostly need to be rare anyway ("d" is common and typed by overlapping, but that's the only one)
01:46:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the normal idea is that some buttons are (almost) always shifts that don't do anything by themselves, while the rest of the keys are triggers that emit an output, possibly a different output depending on what other keys you're holding. you can relax this a little, but you have to be careful how.
01:46:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I know, I tried several systems that worked like that first
01:47:25 <ais523> I didn't like them, I was very slow with them and frequently I would freeze up trying to work out how to input the next character
01:48:39 <b_jonas> but I never tried to design to your goals, and I probably never will, for two reasons: (1) I don't like game controllers, I think that they're mostly controlled by thumb is uncomfortable, and (2) I don't want to type things on the bus/tram, I'm already spending too much of the time at home and at work at a computer, I don't want to do it even during travel time, and that's part of the reason why I don't
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01:51:26 <ais523> hmm… "diaphragms", "paradigm", "mnemonic(s)", "xterm", and a lot of words starting "dw"
01:51:31 <ais523> everything else is a loanword
01:53:26 <ais523> not comprehensive but probably good enough for this
01:53:31 <b_jonas> no, I mean the one starting with diaphragms
01:53:40 <ais523> for "diaphragms"/"paradigms" I guess I have to type the ending as "kms"? "gns" would be easier to type but some words actually end like that
01:53:49 <ais523> b_jonas: the only remaining words with conflicts
01:56:39 <ais523> leading mn could be spelled as nn or nm, neither of those appears at the start of a word
01:57:00 <b_jonas> I hope when you get a stable system from this you document it somewhere
01:57:08 <ais523> will need to implement it
01:57:20 <ais523> so far I've just been holding the controller and pressing the buttons, without anything reading it
01:59:41 <ais523> leading dw is awkward, it's only two letters so everything you might type instead conflicts, maybe "duu" would work?
01:59:55 <ais523> OK, yes, no words contain duu
02:01:01 <ais523> or maybe I can add it as a special case like j and qu are – those special cases require the next letter to always be a vowel, but it is in those cases
02:03:02 <ais523> heh, three of these special cases contain w: wh, dw, and qu which is kw
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02:38:27 <aadenboy> https://cellua.miraheze.org/wiki/Force_notation I think this could be a good foundation for an esolang
02:39:06 <aadenboy> for its intended purpose it's rather verbose and hard to interpret (and just isn't used on the wiki anyways) but it could be augmented for programming in general
02:39:47 <aadenboy> idk what that would look like though
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05:21:25 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177481&oldid=177366 * PrySigneToFry * (+114)
05:22:12 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177482&oldid=177481 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
05:22:45 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177483&oldid=177482 * PrySigneToFry * (+15)
05:23:27 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177484 * BODOKE2801e * (+2164) Created page with "'''Ima gte. Ima dana''' is a [[Joke language list|Joke language]] made by [[User:BODOKE2801e]], it just doesn't make sense ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |+ |- ! Syntax !! Action |- | Say "Hello" to [x]! || Creates new variable x |- | BEGONE [x]!!!! ||
05:24:17 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177485&oldid=177484 * BODOKE2801e * (+0)
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06:54:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177486&oldid=177476 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+273) /* why */
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07:18:24 <esolangs> [[No.pe.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177487&oldid=176541 * PrySigneToFry * (+16)
07:30:44 <esolangs> [[ConstantLanguage()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177488&oldid=169079 * PrySigneToFry * (+178)
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08:23:59 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177489&oldid=177470 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+50)
08:57:47 <b_jonas> I had a realization about the syntax of conditionals in Columnar. So previously I had the idea that the question mark and exclamation mark should be operands on their own that take an integer input from their column and make the following operator run conditionally only if that input is nonzero or zero respectively. But no, the question mark and exclamation mark shouldn't be infections, they should be
08:57:53 <b_jonas> prefixes for other infections. If you put a question mark before one of the infection marks ~ ` ' ^ - then that should turn that from a normal input operand into a condition input, and similarly an exclamation mark to a negated condition. And if you put the question mark or exclamation mark directly before the operator, that should mean that it's conditional on the implicit input from the column where
08:57:59 <b_jonas> that operator is (in which case that column can't also be a normal input to the operator).
08:58:03 <b_jonas> This is definitely more verbose, but I think more suitable for the language.
08:58:55 <b_jonas> These conditionals can then be used on a goto operator (which I think will be spelled as a left parenthesis) for ordinary flow control, or on any normal function call.
09:00:32 <b_jonas> Also if you put them before a dot or comma, which are inflections for output operands, then a conditional doesn't make sense, so that case can be overloaded for some other meaning in the future if necessary, although I already have other prefix/suffix characters that I can use that way.
09:19:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177490&oldid=177478 * C0ffee * (+15)
09:21:21 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177491&oldid=173727 * PrySigneToFry * (+383)
09:31:48 <esolangs> [[MikuLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177492&oldid=176957 * PrySigneToFry * (+111) Small fix
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13:19:17 <esolangs> [[Dotfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177493&oldid=137536 * None1 * (+1) /* Execution */
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14:37:51 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177495 * PrySigneToFry * (+646) Created page with "Some useless code written when going crazy = C++ = <pre> int main() { return 0; } </pre> <pre> int main() { main(); } </pre> <pre> int main() { cout; } </pre> <pre> int main() { while(0) {}; return
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17:01:02 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177496&oldid=177469 * Lykaina * (+17) Adding notice that page describes a certain version of the code (v0.7). Need to update page to current version (v0.8.1).
17:05:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177497&oldid=177408 * Ualkc * (+229) /* Introductions */
17:12:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177498&oldid=174470 * Ualkc * (+57)
17:37:09 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177499&oldid=177496 * Lykaina * (+469) /* Words */ Adding info on multiple definition words.
17:38:17 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177500&oldid=177499 * Lykaina * (+2) Updating to version 0.8.1 (current version).
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18:28:12 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177501&oldid=177485 * BODOKE2801e * (+355) /* Complex */
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19:34:05 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177502&oldid=177500 * Lykaina * (+25) /* Words */ Noticed I forgot something.
19:41:34 <esolangs> [[Afth64]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177503&oldid=177502 * Lykaina * (+0) /* Dictionary Code */ Giving word JUMP a clearer equivalent definition.
19:45:53 <esolangs> [[Voiced dental fricative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177504&oldid=98194 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+770) Added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, changed the Unimplemented page category tag to Implemented, and improved the grammar and formatting.
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22:33:06 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177505&oldid=177501 * BODOKE2801e * (+96) /* Syntax */
22:36:01 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177506&oldid=177505 * BODOKE2801e * (+73) /* Syntax */
22:36:17 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177507&oldid=177506 * BODOKE2801e * (+3) /* Syntax */
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02:03:20 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177508&oldid=177480 * InLuaIKnow * (+1289)
02:18:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177509&oldid=177508 * InLuaIKnow * (+407) /* Lua (made by User:InLuaIKnow) */
02:45:48 <esolangs> [[Tetrahedron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177510 * Cleverxia * (+1122) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Tetrahedron''', with [[hexagony]] as its inspiration, is a [[fungeoid]] created by [[user:cleverxia]] that operates on two infinite tetrahedrons: code and data. ==Program flow== first, the program is loaded into "program tetrahedron" from top to bottom,
02:54:37 <esolangs> [[User:Cleverxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177511&oldid=177338 * Cleverxia * (+41)
03:01:34 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177512&oldid=177507 * BODOKE2801e * (+301) /* Syntax */
03:11:30 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177513&oldid=177512 * BODOKE2801e * (+652) /* Examples */
03:11:49 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177514&oldid=177513 * BODOKE2801e * (+4) /* Quine */
03:13:15 <esolangs> [[Ima gte. Ima dana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177515&oldid=177514 * BODOKE2801e * (+639) /* FizzBuzz */
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