[...]
14:02:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection).
14:03:53 <int-e> Anyway. It's a change. There's an up-side to it too, obviously; deeper circuits are no longer slow.
14:04:15 <int-e> I'll keep experimenting.
14:04:56 <int-e> a transistor feeding into itself will still keep a value alive at least.
14:05:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:05:44 <wib_jonas> do transistors consistently add a delay, eg. for just the control input?
14:05:58 <ais523> <wib_jonas> ais523: but what happens when the type that the reference points to has interior mutability like an UnsafeCell field? you can't use a bitwise copy for that instead of the original one. ← indeed, writing to a cell needs the address
14:06:16 <int-e> (tried that. that was my (and I suppose everybody else's) default delay in shapez 1 after all)
14:06:30 <ais523> it conceptually works because the data inside the cell isn't part of the copy – it's referenced by the copy – but doesn't physically work because the computer doesn't know where the cell actually is
14:06:38 <wib_jonas> ais523: reading from the cell needs the address too, if you don't exclusively own the cell
14:18:07 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161018&oldid=161002 * PrySigneToFry * (+26)
14:41:49 <int-e> wib_jonas: Oh no! The order in which you place the gates matters now. And pasting blueprints doesn't preserve it.
14:43:23 <int-e> though you can tweak the order in which buildings are in the blueprint by changing its orientation when you create the blueprint
14:43:32 <int-e> this might not be fun.
14:44:37 <wib_jonas> in games like this you often can't really make the rules symmetric to all the reasonable symmetries in all cases
14:45:01 <int-e> right but shapez 1 was an exception as far as the wire layer was concerned
14:45:21 <wib_jonas> but ideally you want to make it not matter too much for the player, at least if the player keeps certain rules that don't restrict them too much
14:46:25 <int-e> huh I wonder whether loading and saving breaks this too then
14:54:54 <int-e> well saving and loading certainly changes something
14:58:39 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-wire-trouble.jpg -- this is after saving and loading; the left variant started out as a copy of the right one. 5 work fine (one can store a provided value in the single transistor loop) but for the other three it doesn't work.
14:59:27 <ais523> I tried the shapez 1 demo but didn't enjoy it
14:59:48 <ais523> in general, that sort of game seems like it would be more interesting if you do the computation with the same pieces that you make the shapes out of, rather than having an entire separate system
15:00:38 <int-e> I think what changes is the order in which the not gate and the two transistors are evaluated, and I currently conjecture that the update process starts with a changed signal and propagates changes from there, but only ever updating any gate once.
15:01:54 <int-e> Not because I can confirm it experimentally but because it's a plausible implementation. I could maybe check whether DAGs update consistently in a single cycle.
15:05:11 <wib_jonas> ais523: in the demo, did you reach the two puzzles, which is how to make the last two upgrade shapes? because that's I think one of the interesting parts of this game.
15:05:12 <int-e> ais523: Eh it's not primarly a model of computation. It's support for automation, with the specific goal that the game can request a shape and there's enough logic to disect it and guide production accordingly.
15:06:03 <int-e> (Does the demo even have the wire layer? I forgot.)
15:09:09 <wib_jonas> int-e: the new version of the demo definitely doesn't; I think the old version doesn't either but I don't remember for sure how far it goes
15:09:16 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Client closed).
15:12:02 <int-e> I really don't think of shapez (1 or 2) as a programming game. Obviously there are aspects to it that appeal to programmers... making modular reusable designs, mostly. And there's a strong golfing component to it too if you're so inclined. But then it's a sequence of puzzles, figuring out recipes to make certain shapes. And finally using the wire layer for automation, and then the only thing...
15:12:08 <int-e> ...that's left is either tinkering with those things endlessly or making up your own tasks in a sandbox.
15:18:48 <int-e> ais523: also maybe I misunderstood... the wire layer absolutely can simulate the production part; it's not just 0s and 1s, wires can carry (virtual) shapes.
15:19:49 <int-e> I'm just not playing with that right now because I'm more worried about state management / control flow.
15:22:22 <int-e> And sure, you could restrict the wires to only have shapes, but you'd probably not change it significantly; you'd want to encode a conditional somewhere, and in a non-esoteric fashion because making it complicated would reduce your audience to a dozen people who enjoy this kind of thing and play the game. :P
15:23:45 <int-e> (I've seen people struggle with the wire layer as it is, with its very mundane logic signaling part.)
15:24:02 <int-e> Anyway. You dislike it and that's okay :-P
15:25:59 <ais523> int-e: I was thinking more of using the production part to simulate the wire layer
15:26:20 <ais523> like, having machines that turn on and off based on whether you paint them red or blue, that sort of thing
15:27:04 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161019&oldid=160982 * Aadenboy * (+19) /* VSCode Box Drawing */ I got a review!
15:28:28 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161020&oldid=161014 * PkmnQ * (+60) Add a few queue-based languages (may add more later)
15:28:52 <int-e> ais523: yeah that would be a completely different type of game
15:30:18 <ais523> it seems so superflous to have two different types of thing (wire signals and manufacturing components) when one would do
15:31:30 <ais523> I guess the extreme version of this viewpoint would be to be able to put machine components on the belts (including belts) so that your machine could manufacture itself
15:31:59 <ais523> and create a make-anything-machine that handles all the tasks it's ever been given simultaneously, rather than switching from one goal to the next
15:43:24 <int-e> I /think/ the wire stuff does a topological sort (but breaking loops in an unpredictable way, well, unpredictable to me)
15:43:39 <ais523> it might be arbitrary, I guess?
15:43:56 <ais523> based on something like iteration order over a hash table
15:44:00 <ais523> that's what tsorts do by "default"
15:44:30 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161021&oldid=160997 * Hotcrystal0 * (+17)
15:46:27 <int-e> Hmm, no, that isn't right. Under that theory my basic memory cell should work fine.
15:52:13 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
16:04:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:YOUR TAKING TOO LONG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161022 * PlaceReporter99 * (+151) Created page with "So this is just a derivative of [[bf]]? ~~~~"
16:22:42 -!- tromp has joined.
16:29:56 -!- b_jonas has joined.
16:34:54 <b_jonas> ais523: people have used Factorio belts (and splitters and undergrounds, but without circuit signals or other tricks) to simulate arbitrary logic circuit. this is rather inefficient and so esoteric. I'm not sure how hard it would be in shapez.io 1, because shapez.io 1 doesn't have convenient priority merges. but this uses only where the items are on the belt rather than where they are. for shapez 1, if
16:35:00 <b_jonas> you want to add new builtins to make it easier to use the belts for computation, you have to be careful that they don't cook shapez1's puzzles or make the game too much easier. .
16:35:52 <ais523> I guess I considered the puzzles I saw sufficiently easy to not consider them to add to the game
16:36:29 <ais523> I am not sure whether I saw all of them or not
16:36:37 <b_jonas> in my head the idea is that logic computation should be free, but producing specific shapes on belts, especially in large numbers quickly, is the task that you need to solve, and so shouldn't be free.
16:37:01 <int-e> ais523: there's really only two of those fixed level shapes that stump people, both variations on the same idea
16:37:37 <ais523> the existence of an MAM also implies the existence of a simple algorithm for constructing any given shape
16:38:24 <int-e> one is https://viewer.shapez.io/?RuCw--Cw:----Ru-- and the other one is https://viewer.shapez.io/?CbCuCbCu:Sr------:--CrSrCr:CwCwCwCw and both feature things that aren't directly supported from below.
16:38:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that's why I'm asking if you produced the last two upgrade shapes, https://viewer.shapez.io/?RuCw--Cw:----Ru-- and https://viewer.shapez.io/?CbCuCbCu:Sr------:--CrSrCr:CwCwCwCw . these are puzzles where you have to experiment to learn what exactly the rules for the cutter and stacker are, and then figure out how to use them to build those shapes, especially in large numbers without manual
16:38:47 <int-e> the rest of the game up to the MAM stage is just building
16:39:06 <b_jonas> these are also level goal shapes, but those levels aren't in the demo, only the upgrades are.
16:39:28 <int-e> oh I had not considered that you could still go for all those upgrades in the demo
16:39:31 <ais523> OK, so the challenge in the first one is to construct the higher-level corner without it falling down?
16:39:33 <int-e> and find the shapes that way
16:40:42 <ais523> ah, I think in that case the puzzle is understanding what the game mechanics are – I expect the solution to be simple but not necessarily easy to find as you might have to determine the mechanics by experiment
16:40:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I realized that back when I recommended the game to tom7, because he makes the kind of puzzles where you have to experiment to learn the rules.
16:41:28 <ais523> I wouldn't expect variations to the game to break the puzzle, in that case
16:43:29 <ais523> not having the game open or really remembering the rules, I would guess that the solution would be something like "create a shape with an arbitrary nonempty right half at the lowest level, a white quarter-circle in the top-left and nothing in the bottom-left; stack the bottom half of a gray square on it; then cut off the right half and replace it with the correct right half"
16:44:00 <ais523> as that's the sort of solution for which I can imagine rules where that's the simplest solution, whereas most rules I'm considering make it either trivial or impossible
16:45:40 <b_jonas> as for "to be able to put machine components on the belts (including belts) so that your machine could manufacture itself" => that's what Factorio does. Factorio has the severe restriction that almost any building has to be constructed using one type of item (usually just one instance of the item but that's not strict), rather than assembled in place at construction time from multiple types of items.
16:45:46 <b_jonas> that's mostly to make the vanilla game an interesting challenge and simple, but it sort of hurts modded variants. if you want to construct buildings from multiple types of items then you have to play Settlers.
16:47:34 <int-e> ais523: I did get some entertainment out of the puzzle mode dlc, which focusses on finding recipes and golfing. (Puzzles are crowd-sourced, but there's a reasonably functional difficulty assessment that looks at how many people who try a puzzle actually solve it and maybe also at the time taken.)
16:47:56 <int-e> they inevitably suffer from overused themes of course
16:48:26 <b_jonas> "difficulty assessment that looks at how many people who try a puzzle actually solve it and maybe also at the time taken." => ah, the Mario Maker difficulty system
16:49:03 <int-e> one such theme is... people have figured out that you can encode number link with just producers, goals, and belts, disallowing everything else, so there's a *ton* of number link puzzles in there.
16:54:37 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
16:59:38 <b_jonas> I'll also remark that for me personally, shapez 1 was the first conveyor belt factory game that I playes, as such it's a gateway drug into Factorio. and since shapez 1 has a definite goal that you can reach in a not too long playtime, it works as such a gateway drug for other players too.
17:07:43 -!- tromp has joined.
17:45:30 <zzo38> About puzzles that you will have to experiment to figure out the rules, for games that include the source codes the way would be to examine the source codes to figure out the rules.
17:46:44 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.).
17:48:30 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:49:48 -!- shikhin has changed hostmask to ~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian.
17:51:59 <zzo38> In the case of some Hero Hearts puzzles (e.g. SUPERHRO:384-403), it says there are tricks that you will have to work hard to discover, and also objects hidden behind other objects. The original game engine is not FOSS but the source code for the implementations of the classes is available (actually they are stored as P-code and decompiled when you want to edit them).
17:52:29 <zzo38> So, sometimes behaviours (including unintended consequences of them) can be found from examining these codes.
17:57:38 <zzo38> The documentation does have some details about the internal working of the game engine, but I have found it to be incomplete and incorrect in many ways. I have made experiments to figure out the actual working and reimplemented it, now as FOSS, so that now the rules can actually be read and figured out that way.
18:03:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and I did eventually examine the source code of shapez.io to learn how freeplay shapez are rolled, and later the rules for stacking too.
18:05:41 <zzo38> (I also implemented the ability to right-click on a grid cell to display a list of all of the objects in that grid cell, so that it is a game of complete information.)
18:25:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
19:33:02 <korvo> ais523: Regarding linear logic: we can quickly check whether a modality is one of the two canonical exponentials by asking if they satisfy universal laws. For the ? modality, the relevant law is that it's a monad; X o- ?X and ??X o- ?X naturally for any X.
19:33:44 <korvo> So a shared ref of a shared ref would still be a shared ref. Seems plausible. Indeed, this seems like something that would have arisen in the literature already, although most folks study ! instead since ! is required for the intuitionistic-linear bridge.
19:35:22 <korvo> Oh, those lollys should be the other way around, X -o ?X and ??X -o ?X. Whoops.
20:32:35 <esolangs> [[Ougsoeei]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161023 * Bebebe * (+221) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Ougsoeei |author=[[User:bebebe]] |year=2025 }} {{wip}} Ougsoeei is from [[User: bebebe]](this is a nickname). bebebe's goal was to create a highly illogical and inconsistent esolang for people."
20:47:46 <esolangs> [[Qdeql]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161024&oldid=53701 * Stkptr * (+20)
20:47:56 <esolangs> [[Queuenanimous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161025&oldid=156777 * Stkptr * (+12)
21:22:45 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161026&oldid=155804 * Bebebe * (+2)
21:23:31 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161027&oldid=161026 * Bebebe * (-2)
21:29:50 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
21:30:33 <esolangs> [[Ougsoeei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161028&oldid=161023 * Bebebe * (-184)
21:43:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dmitry samorodyuk * New user account
22:04:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:29:22 -!- janewila has joined.
22:45:21 -!- janewila has quit (Quit: Client closed).
23:12:57 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
00:15:49 -!- Artea has joined.
01:19:04 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161029&oldid=161021 * PrySigneToFry * (+35)
01:20:14 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161030&oldid=160928 * PrySigneToFry * (+124)
01:22:07 -!- moony has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:22:34 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!).
01:22:34 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
01:44:53 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
01:44:59 -!- moony has joined.
01:49:03 -!- iovoid has joined.
02:12:49 <esolangs> [[Mint remake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161031&oldid=161010 * Hajunsheng * (+82)
02:59:16 <esolangs> [[Smotslang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161032&oldid=160989 * Clover-not-used * (+106) sync
04:26:50 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161033&oldid=161013 * Tommyaweosme * (-2886) ~ placeholder for phase 2 message! its 11:26 am! ~
04:35:22 <esolangs> [[Smotslang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161034&oldid=161032 * Aadenboy * (+39) link
05:00:25 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161035&oldid=161020 * None1 * (+13) /* R */ Record definitely fits the constraints
05:35:31 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161036&oldid=155833 * PkmnQ * (+387) Add Sceql
05:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161037&oldid=159547 * I am islptng * (+247)
05:50:53 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161038&oldid=161037 * I am islptng * (+20)
05:54:00 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161039&oldid=161035 * PkmnQ * (+24) Qdeql and Sceql (they seem distinct enough to be separately listed)
05:54:06 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161040&oldid=160132 * PkmnQ * (+28) Type 39 (and probably more) is self-modifying
06:07:42 -!- tromp has joined.
06:18:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:37:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
06:44:43 -!- tromp has joined.
08:33:10 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
08:41:21 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
09:48:30 -!- tromp has joined.
09:50:41 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161041 * Pifrited * (+15) Created page with "<pre> :P </pre>"
10:25:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161042&oldid=160998 * Dmitry samorodyuk * (+300)
10:30:46 <esolangs> [[Boringscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161043 * Dmitry samorodyuk * (+86) Created page with "{{wip}} Boringscript - is a maximally boring esolang, developed by Dmitry Samorodyuk."
10:30:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:34:33 <ais523> korvo: that helped, I think – I was mixing levels and interpreted ? as not-a-monad because I thought it was not-a-functor, but it is a functor on *pure* functions and forgot at the time hat linear logic rules had to be applied to the capabilities of impure functions
10:35:10 <ais523> then later on I remembered that impure functions do have to follow linear logic rules with how they used their capabilities, but by then I'd forgotten that this would make it a functor
10:35:40 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
10:35:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
10:36:29 <ais523> (or another way to put it is that in order to produce a ?T -o ?U, you need a !(T -o U), not just a T -o U)
10:37:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
10:53:45 <ais523> the thing I'm dealing with definitely does "pure" (although that's a misleading name in this case) and flatten, it's just the map operation that's suspect
10:53:53 <ais523> but ? is in the same situation
11:06:18 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:11:16 -!- tromp has joined.
11:30:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161044&oldid=159778 * PrySigneToFry * (+70)
11:53:26 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:19:40 -!- amby has joined.
12:36:49 -!- moony has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:37:07 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
12:37:07 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!).
12:37:32 -!- moony has joined.
12:37:40 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
12:41:13 -!- iovoid has joined.
12:52:00 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:57:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aquafishy7 * New user account
13:04:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161045&oldid=161042 * Aquafishy7 * (+90)
13:06:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161046&oldid=161045 * Aquafishy7 * (+58)
13:06:52 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161047&oldid=149166 * Aquafishy7 * (-895)
13:06:59 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161048&oldid=161047 * Aquafishy7 * (+0)
13:13:06 -!- tromp has joined.
13:17:38 <ais523> in any case, one thing that I'm now trying to work out is whether linear logic's ? is a "modality" or not, in the sense of modal logic – I'm having trouble working this out primarily due to not being able to find a clear definition of what a modality is or isn't (and it may be that no agreed-on definition exists?)
13:26:58 <esolangs> [[Sceql]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161049&oldid=72629 * PkmnQ * (+389) /* Example programs */ Add Kolakoski sequence to examples
14:20:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] to [[Simple2DMachine]]
14:20:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User talk:Pifrited/Simple2DMachine]] to [[Talk:Simple2DMachine]]
14:43:03 <korvo> ais523: A modality is merely a functor, FWIW.
14:43:30 <ais523> OK – I'm still not convinced ? is a functor in the traditional sense
14:43:45 <ais523> but I guess it depends on how you convert the signature of fmap from classical logic to linear logic
15:08:10 <korvo> Doesn't have to be a Functor exactly, but it (Cheng-)morally ought to be. nLab says, roughly, a modal operator ♯ merely sends propositions X to propositions ♯X such that some reasonable properties are satisfied.
15:08:44 <korvo> If you assume that X can be any prop, including e.g. an internal hom Y -o Z, then it follows that ♯ is a functor.
15:10:14 <korvo> Actually phrasing a functor within linear logic is tricky. In general, anything intuitionistic with shape X -> Y needs to become either X -o !Y or !(X -o Y) in the linear world in order to have equivalent functionality.
15:14:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161054&oldid=160857 * Cycwin * (+256) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */ new section
15:15:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161055&oldid=161054 * Cycwin * (+0) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */ (
15:21:48 <esolangs> [[GebAuI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161056&oldid=160313 * Tommyaweosme * (+10)
15:22:16 <esolangs> [[GebAuI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161057&oldid=161056 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
15:27:24 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161058&oldid=161033 * Tommyaweosme * (+639)
15:39:14 <ais523> korvo: right – if you convert (X → Y) to !(X -o Y) then ? is a functor
15:40:44 <korvo> ais523: FWIW the underlying semantics have a *very* natural mapping explaining this. Every adjunction gives a monad and comonad. Sets and vector spaces (over some fixed field K) are adjoint. ? and ! are precisely the monad and comonad from that adjunction.
15:41:10 <korvo> (One must accept that classical logics are interpreted in sets and linear logics are interpreted in vector spaces, I suppose.)
15:43:09 <ais523> this makes sense and is consistent with what I've been discovering
15:45:21 <korvo> Decoding https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/%21-modality a bit, ? : Set -> Set sends a set X to the function set Hom(1, Lin(X)) where Lin(X) is linear combinations of X.
15:46:38 <korvo> Specifically, each element x in X is sent to a naming function \() -> {x: 1} that selects the linear combination which is 100% x (and 0% any other element in X)
15:49:21 <korvo> I guess that the monadic join is Bayes' rule for finite X. I know enough probability theory to imagine that it's not so simple for infinite X.
15:54:57 <korvo> ais523: Okay, actually, this now makes sense for refs, at least in the finite case. Suppose we have a ref to some enum type. As a matter of probability, I suppose that we can describe *which* enum it points to as a linear span.
15:56:36 <korvo> As expected from having our semantics actually in sets, we only have refs that 100% point to a single case; there's no actual superpositions in memory. Nonetheless we still have the idea that we can take a ref to a ref and that they can be flattened down with a monadic join.
15:57:07 <ais523> yes – the "I am borrowing this and I can copy the borrow" aspect of references clearly flattens perfectly
15:58:15 <korvo> Borrowing a bit from QM, the PBR theorem says that we can't avoid excess baggage when doing this modeling; even though we only use the non-superpositions, we have to pay for the superpositions too.
15:59:07 <korvo> So when we store refs as pointers, and do pointer-chasing, we're actually implementing a very fast algorithm for finding representatives of those refs. It's a classic one, too: union/find!
16:00:26 <korvo> ...Maybe that was a big leap, sorry. PBR says that if we want to faithfully implement the monadic join then we'd better implement it for all superpositions *or* we have to carry information about how each state was prepared.
16:00:50 <korvo> So, let's take that second branch. Modern pointers have provenance.
16:01:06 <ais523> yes – I've spent a while thinking about how to formalise provenance
16:04:41 <ais523> @hoogle Either x y -> (x -> z) -> (y -> z) -> z
16:04:41 <lambdabot> Overhang onRight :: Either a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c
16:05:37 <ais523> @hoogle Either x y -> (x -> a) -> (y -> b) -> Either a b
16:05:38 <lambdabot> Overhang onBimapSecond :: Bifunctor t => t a c -> (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> t b d
16:05:57 <lambdabot> Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> p a c -> p b d
16:06:39 <korvo> e'e iu Happy to help.
16:06:41 <ais523> this is so much easier in classical logic :-D
16:07:26 <ais523> @hoogle Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Utils fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Extra fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:27 <lambdabot> Extra fromEither :: Either a a -> a
16:07:39 <korvo> Yeah, linear logic is very tricky. I had started working on foundations in linear logic, but gave up because there's no clear set of axioms for it and one ends up having to put ! onto every theorem anyway.
16:10:31 <ais523> the thing I was thinking about is that "a -> X a", "b -> X b", and "X a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c" collectively imply X = Either, and this lets you define your own Eithers even if the language doesn't have enums
16:11:10 <ais523> err, "a -> X a b", "b -> X a b", and "X a b -> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c"
16:12:12 <ais523> but, if you translate that definition into linear logic naively, you get ⅋ rather than the expected ⊕
16:24:55 <ais523> (well, not quite – you end up with (c⅋c) at the end rather than c)
16:27:47 <korvo> Right, the categorical product and sum are given by the additive connectors. (BTW, did you know that ⅋ doesn't have a standard name? I call it "paramends", an anagram of "ampersand".)
16:28:54 <korvo> There is a perspective that makes this natural, although it's jargon-dense: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/linear%2Blogic#polycategories
16:29:34 <ais523> Wikipedia calls it "par"
16:30:21 <ais523> which after thinking about it for a while, I decided might stand for "parallel" (the Rust approximation seems to be "you can consume an 'A⅋B' only via the use of code which could consume an A and a B in parallel")
16:32:08 <korvo> I'm not sure if Rust can internalize it properly. The idea is that A ⅋ B ≈ ~A -o B; linear logic is aggressively De Morgan. Symmetrically, we also have ~B -o A. It's like two transformations in a single bundled object.
16:33:48 <ais523> very few programming languages can internalize it properly, I think
16:34:14 <ais523> but I'm starting to understand it intuitively even though it doesn't translate very easily to useful programming concepts
16:34:50 <korvo> Even in vending-machine semantics it's tricky. X ⅋ Y means that you may engage the vending machine in a Socratic dialogue about the meaning of life, including the concept that X doesn't exist and never made sense as a concept. The machine accepts your proof and emits a can of Y.
16:35:06 <APic> This Chan pwns
16:35:17 <ais523> (the other three connectives translate easily: ⊗ is tuples/structs, ⊕ is disjoint union (which Rust calls "enum"), and & is a type that can be coerced into either of two types, `impl Into<A>+into<B>` in Rust)
16:35:26 <APic> Sadly i do not have enough Intelligence to understand most of it
16:35:33 <APic> But i still enjoy reading it
16:35:33 <korvo> Also, technically, you may prove that Y doesn't exist, in which case it will vend a can of X. How? I don't know, and this is part of why QM is so mysterious.
16:36:00 <korvo> APic: <3 Thanks. I know I'm a grump, but I appreciate you.
16:37:42 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
16:52:48 -!- tromp has joined.
17:22:26 <esolangs> [[JollyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161059&oldid=148912 * IntGrah * (-45) /* Computational class */
17:42:56 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
19:08:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
19:12:15 -!- Guest95 has joined.
19:21:15 -!- Guest95 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
20:04:14 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:12:09 -!- moony has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:12:35 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!).
20:12:35 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
20:19:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:20:12 <ais523> esolangs: how would one write an interpreter for But Is It Art?
20:20:32 <esolangs> ais523: Writing an interpreter for But Is It Art (BIA) is a fascinating challenge! Here's a simplified approach: 1. **Parse:** BIA's code is a series of "art" statements, each with a specific meaning. You'd need a parser to break down the code into its components. 2. **Interpret:** BIA's "art" statements are interpreted based on their meaning. This could...
20:20:32 <esolangs> involve logic, data manipulation, and potentially even visual rendering. 3. **Output:** The interpreter would then output the result of the "art" statement, which could be a visual representation, a text output, or even a combination of both. Remember, BIA is about exploring the boundaries of art and language, so the interpreter should reflect that...
20:20:34 <esolangs> [[!Frontal Lobe Lobotomy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161060&oldid=161005 * Stkptr * (+6) explicitly finite, but feasibly infinite
20:21:57 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
20:21:57 -!- moony has joined.
20:22:48 <ais523> my expectations were low, and the result nonetheless still failed to live up to them
20:23:00 <korvo> That almost seems like a RAG miss.
20:23:48 <ais523> what does RAG stand for here?
20:25:31 -!- iovoid has joined.
20:25:41 <korvo> Retrieval-Augmented Generation. Before the bot generates a response, there's a search step that looks up relevant snippets. By "miss" I mean that the RAG step didn't return anything at all, so the bot sort of winged it.
20:26:21 <korvo> esolangs: Who designed the language But Is It Art? and when did they publish it?
20:26:25 <ais523> I did write the name of an esolang literally, but it is possible that the retriever nonetheless failed to find the right page
20:26:42 <korvo> I'm wondering if the ? character got stripped somewhere in the pipeline.
20:27:04 <ais523> but, the response arrived "too quickly" which is evidence of the search missing
20:27:30 <esolangs> korvo: But Is It Art? was designed by User:ais523 in 2017.
20:28:11 <ais523> the wiki agrees that it was 2017 (I couldn't remember the exact year), so that looks like the correct page was found
20:29:02 <korvo> There's also the generic shape of the response. "X is a fascinating challenge! Let's work step by step:" tastes like the RLHF that was popular about 2-3yrs ago and suggests to me that the response isn't customized for any particular snippets.
20:30:00 <ais523> yes, it's a very LLVM sort of answer
20:30:10 <ais523> LLVM is a compiler backend
20:32:06 * ais523 reflects that the typo is probably an indication of having their priorities in the right place
20:33:16 <korvo> esolangs: How would one write an interpreter for the language But Is It Art?
20:33:32 <esolangs> korvo: Writing an interpreter for But Is It Art (BIA) is a fascinating challenge! Here's a simplified approach: 1. **Parse:** BIA's code is a series of "art" expressions, which need to be parsed into a structured data format. 2. **Evaluate:** BIA's expressions are evaluated based on their meaning, potentially using a combination of built-in functions and...
20:33:32 <esolangs> custom logic. 3. **Output:** The interpreter outputs the result of the evaluation, which could be a string, a number, or even a visual representation. Remember, BIA is about artistic expression, so the interpreter should prioritize readability and flexibility.
20:34:02 <korvo> Cached? So I'd guess that something's not hitting.
20:34:14 <ais523> in the original question, it did seem to recognise that I was talking about a programming language, despite the question not stating htat
20:34:24 <ais523> I guess "write an interpreter" is a sufficiently loaded phrase to suggest it
20:34:29 <korvo> esolangs: What is the recommended approach for implementing the language But Is It Art?
20:34:42 <ais523> (with the verb "write" ruling out the other possible meanings of "interpreter")
20:34:43 <korvo> Oh, yeah, that could definitely be a factor.
20:34:46 <esolangs> korvo: Implementing "But Is It Art?" is a challenge, as it's a highly experimental language focused on artistic expression. **Recommended approach:** 1. **Embrace ambiguity:** Don't focus on strict syntax. Allow for unconventional code structures and interpretations. 2. **Prioritize visual output:** Use graphics, animations, or interactive elements to...
20:34:46 <esolangs> showcase the "art" aspect. 3. **Leverage external tools:** Integrate with libraries for image manipulation, sound synthesis, or other artistic mediums. 4. **Focus on the experience:** Prioritize the user's interaction and the emotional impact of the output. Remember, the goal is to create something unique and visually compelling, not to adhere to...
20:34:46 <esolangs> traditional programming paradigms.
20:35:27 <ais523> OK, it clearly recognises that it's an esolang, but it's unclear whether that was done via retrieval or not
20:36:10 <ais523> in a twisted sense, this is a good answer – it is a hard language to implement correctly, so it is trying to persuade me that implementing it incorrectly would be a more aesthetic approach
20:37:31 <ais523> in any case, the whole Claude Plays Pokémon thing convinced me that LLMs are incredibly bad at reasoning about 2D space, so it probably wouldn't be able to draw conclusions from the language specification about how it might be implemented
21:07:45 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
21:07:47 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:38:05 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
21:43:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection).
21:45:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:49:05 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:06:13 -!- FreeFull has quit.
22:26:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:52:07 <Sgeo> IBM 305 RAMAC is ... almost ... giving me BytePusher vibes
22:52:38 <Sgeo> Instructions being a source, a destination, and... some control thing
22:57:44 <Sgeo> The control codes are defined by changable hardware wiring
23:01:45 <Sgeo> Ok I need a plugboard tutorial
23:11:39 <Sgeo> There's actually a generic plugboard configuration, so a program can be written entirely as a stored program. But there's a warning that this reduces processing speed
23:45:26 <Sgeo> Things like multiplication are ... memory/mapped IO I think? Didn't get that far reading yet but there's a reference to a multiplicand track. Although maybe that means something else
23:52:19 <ais523> I think there are both esoteric and non-esoteric transport-triggered architectures
23:52:37 <ais523> where every instruction except mov is triggered by writing to or reading from particular addresses
23:53:16 <ais523> I've used a processor where simple arithmetic and conditional instructions existed (including RMW), but everything more complicated was transport-triggered
23:53:39 <ais523> e.g. to do an indirect memory access (the equivalent of a pointer arithmetic), you would write the address to a known memory location and then read or write to address 0
23:54:13 <ais523> and the hardware would intercept attempts to read/write address 0 and instead change the address to match the value in the specific memory location
23:59:30 <Sgeo> "each vertical row of hubs"... that's not what the word row means
00:29:00 <Sgeo> I think this isn't transport triggered
00:43:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
00:43:52 -!- Guest6028 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:52:45 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
00:57:18 <Sgeo> There are 10 accumulators, treated as 20 memory locations
00:58:19 <Sgeo> add/subtract is memory i/o based
01:00:26 <Sgeo> So is multiplication
01:05:09 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161061&oldid=160067 * Aadenboy * (+202) add [[thisthat]]
01:06:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161062&oldid=161055 * PrySigneToFry * (+66)
01:13:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161063&oldid=161062 * I am islptng * (+168)
01:15:13 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Sig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161064 * I am islptng * (+40) Created page with "{{User:I am islptng/Template:Signature}}"
01:16:14 -!- user3456 has joined.
01:16:37 -!- user3456 has changed nick to Guest5626.
01:16:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161065&oldid=161063 * I am islptng * (+135) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
01:21:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161066&oldid=161065 * Cycwin * (+113) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
01:25:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161067&oldid=161066 * I am islptng * (+349)
01:26:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161068&oldid=161067 * I am islptng * (+1) pstf
01:27:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161069&oldid=161068 * Cycwin * (+330) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
01:27:57 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161070&oldid=160981 * Aadenboy * (+548) /* Examples */ kolakoski sequence
01:28:07 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161071&oldid=161070 * Aadenboy * (+2) /* Kolakoski sequence */
01:29:14 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161072&oldid=161036 * Aadenboy * (+578) add [[thisthat]]
01:57:45 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161073 * Cycwin * (+1404) Created page with "{{PAGENAME}} is a string algorithm, which is similar to [[Tag system]] but has some differences. It is by [[User:Cycwin]] conceived. == Definitions == Given an initial string, traversing from front to back in character units, #If a number (0-9) is encountered, let this nu
01:58:40 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161074&oldid=161073 * Cycwin * (+4)
01:59:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Afstal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161075 * Cycwin * (+0) Created blank page
02:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:Cycwin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161076&oldid=159365 * Cycwin * (+24)
02:44:43 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161077&oldid=161074 * Cycwin * (+4) /* Computational Class */
02:50:55 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161078&oldid=161071 * Aadenboy * (+361)
03:45:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161079&oldid=161018 * Elphan * (+12) /* W */
05:42:49 <korvo> I beat Mario 1 in 10min at the bar tonight. I'm pretty happy with that. I only had maybe a dozen game-overs and I only died at Bowser once.
05:43:25 <korvo> I had wanted to practice a Zelda 3 glitch but all the SNESs were occupied.
06:37:09 -!- tromp has joined.
06:43:08 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161080&oldid=161072 * PkmnQ * (+238) Add Queuenanimous
06:54:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:30:21 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
07:35:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161081&oldid=161069 * I am islptng * (+194) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
07:59:10 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/qoob derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161082&oldid=159154 * PkmnQ * (+2616) This construction seems to work well
08:01:07 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:09:16 -!- tromp has joined.
08:39:08 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
09:01:35 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Template:PoeticSignature]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161083 * PrySigneToFry * (+782) Created page with "[[User:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:blue;background:yellow;"></span>]][[User talk:PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:aqua;background:red;"></span>]]Special:Contributions/PrySigneToFry|<span style="color:red;background:aqua;">..
09:03:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161084&oldid=161011 * PrySigneToFry * (+125) /* Test */ new section
09:04:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161085&oldid=161084 * PrySigneToFry * (+0)
09:50:23 -!- tromp has joined.
10:35:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
10:35:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:36:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
11:10:31 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161086&oldid=160780 * PrySigneToFry * (+470) /* Timezone */ new section
11:17:54 -!- Everything has joined.
11:25:02 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:32:29 -!- tromp has joined.
11:48:37 -!- amby has joined.
12:01:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161087&oldid=161086 * Aadenboy * (+475)
12:05:03 -!- Everything has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:33:52 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:35:19 -!- tromp has joined.
12:48:20 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:48:55 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm pretty sure that the fact that you can make two random shapes in shapez 2 isn't for lookahead... they are generated differently. AFAICS the first type is basically "classic", you make all the slices and stack them. Only features colored basic shapes. The second type uses new features, crystals, and, presumably, pins later on.
12:55:01 <int-e> But you also won't run as much into latency problems because the goal is to deliver a certain number of shapes and that increases by 1k per level (levels are separate for the two types), as far as I can make out.
13:02:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161088&oldid=161087 * Ais523 * (+675) /* Timezone */ signatures being in UTC+0 is not a bug, everyone's signature is supposed to use the same time zone so that the timestamps can be compared
13:18:39 <int-e> (I've completed a single belt MAM for the first type, with no attempts at fancy logic.)
14:08:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161089&oldid=161081 * Hotcrystal0 * (+328)
14:43:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:48:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161090&oldid=161089 * Pifrited * (+246) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
15:12:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161091&oldid=161090 * I am islptng * (+330) /* Are you okay? */
15:30:07 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161092 * I am islptng * (+808) Created page with "{{distinguish/Confusion|Counter clockwise}} '''CounterClockWise''' is an esolang created by islptng. Literally, there is '''counter'''s and '''clock'''s, and you can make '''wise''' programs. The title is unrelated to rotation. ==Syntax== A program consi
15:31:20 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
15:39:10 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161093&oldid=161040 * Leomok2009 * (+730)
16:55:53 <b_jonas> int-e: so it takes a much longer time to take freeplay levels? and does the game eventually reward you for delivering the harder type of freeplay shapes instead of just the easier ones?
17:07:47 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:30:58 <int-e> b_jonas: You mainly just increase your "operator level" which unlocks more space platforms (haven't run into that limit yet...) and sporadically a research that increases a "shape multiplier" (which is applied to shapes delivered to the vortex (hub); I have a 4x multiplier and I don't know whether I'll see 5x; it does mean that 1k shapes is about 83s on a single 180/s belt. Did I write...
17:31:04 <int-e> ..."increases by 1k"? It's 100, so it adds 8.3s per level for a single belt delivery. You can obviously scale up the MAM.) The reward for tackling the harder shapes is that they have their own delivery count, starting at 1k. The reward for tackling the random shapes at all rather than the other ones that you can continuously deliver for getting operator levels is that the counts for those grow...
17:35:19 <int-e> Apparently they are cooking a new game mode for their 1.0 release (but playing it safe and keeping what they currently have as "classic mode"). I wonder what that will be. The thing they say they want to address is the tendency to strip down what you've built after an objective is completed.
17:39:50 <int-e> b_jonas: In the end the main novelty is building in three layers (and there are buildings that occupy more than one layer)... it makes the design challenge noticably more complex. Especially because when you switch from one layer to another vertically, you only get one connection on the two levels that you connect. so there's some zig-zagging involved.
18:39:38 -!- tromp has joined.
19:15:55 <int-e> (and being constrained to platforms with limited bandwidth between them scratches a golfing itch)
20:26:49 <esolangs> [[HQ9~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161094&oldid=161048 * Aquafishy7 * (+2675)
20:27:50 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
20:32:02 <esolangs> [[User:Stysan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161095&oldid=99012 * Stysan * (-38) /* Contact me */
20:33:20 <esolangs> [[User:Stysan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161096&oldid=161095 * Stysan * (-112) /* Who are you? */
21:10:13 -!- amby has joined.
21:37:41 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:31:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:53:28 -!- birle has joined.
22:57:51 -!- birle has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
23:12:30 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:16:58 <esolangs> [[ABCDirection]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161097&oldid=111152 * Stkptr * (+2755)
00:46:15 -!- lisbeths has joined.
00:46:46 <lisbeths> I have reprogrammed terry davis' holyc to be written purely in s expressions https://github.com/memesmith0/holylisp/blob/main/holylisp.scm
00:58:51 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:33:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection).
01:44:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:57:18 <esolangs> [[YATDEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161098&oldid=85321 * HecknTarnation * (+1) Grammar fixes
02:20:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
02:21:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
02:26:12 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:51:28 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:02:00 -!- rodgort has joined.
04:24:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
04:25:29 -!- lisbeths has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
04:51:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
05:04:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MijiGamin1 * New user account
05:42:27 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161099&oldid=161092 * I am islptng * (+47)
05:43:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * I am islptng * moved [[User talk:I am islptng]] to [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]]: ARCHIVED
05:44:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161102&oldid=161101 * I am islptng * (+816) Removed redirect to [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]]
05:49:54 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161103&oldid=161038 * I am islptng * (+109)
05:57:31 -!- tromp has joined.
06:09:39 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161104&oldid=161103 * I am islptng * (+133)
06:37:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
06:51:52 <esolangs> [[Brafunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161105&oldid=158395 * C0ffee * (+98)
07:01:23 -!- tromp has joined.
07:13:55 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
07:37:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:15:09 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
08:15:20 -!- birle has joined.
08:15:34 -!- birle has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
08:20:07 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
11:10:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161106&oldid=161102 * PrySigneToFry * (+197) /* Template */ new section
11:18:55 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161107&oldid=161093 * PkmnQ * (+44)
11:42:11 -!- amby has joined.
12:13:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161108 * Cycwin * (+132) Created page with "how can you know /22c is 2c/2 or c/22? use ( and ) ? --~~~~"
13:16:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161109&oldid=161106 * I am islptng * (+37) /* Template */
13:16:28 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161110&oldid=161109 * I am islptng * (+92) /* Template */
13:20:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Runius * New user account
13:22:47 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161111&oldid=161030 * Hotcrystal0 * (+25)
13:24:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161112&oldid=161046 * Runius * (+128)
13:31:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:I am islptng/arxiv/2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161113&oldid=161100 * Cycwin * (+93) /* Nooooooooooooooooooooo */
13:35:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161114&oldid=158899 * Cycwin * (+147) /* metoo */ new section
13:56:25 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:59:37 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161115&oldid=161114 * Pifrited * (+267) /* metoo */
14:18:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161116&oldid=161115 * Cycwin * (+133) /* metoo */
14:19:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:20:37 * APic → Bathtub 😌 🐬 🐋
14:34:03 -!- Everything has joined.
14:42:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:42:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161117&oldid=161116 * Pifrited * (+104) /* metoo */
14:50:08 -!- Everythi1g has joined.
14:50:26 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Random]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161118 * Pifrited * (+199)
14:54:17 -!- Everything has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:54:45 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161119&oldid=157595 * Aadenboy * (-23598) Replaced content with "hey{{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{User:Aadenboy/Sandbox}}|}}<noinclude>{{User:Aadenboy/Sandbox|a}}"
15:18:39 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
15:19:27 -!- birle has joined.
15:19:50 -!- birle has changed nick to Guest5780.
15:23:14 -!- Guest5780 has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
15:23:46 -!- Guest5780 has changed nick to birle.
15:25:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161120&oldid=161117 * Cycwin * (+101) /* metoo */
15:48:45 -!- Everythi1g has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:53:01 -!- tromp has joined.
17:15:34 -!- sprout has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:22:00 -!- sprout has joined.
17:45:32 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:58:13 -!- tromp has joined.
17:58:22 <esolangs> [[BOUNCE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161121 * QuantumV * (+1875) Create page
17:59:44 <esolangs> [[User:QuantumV]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161122&oldid=159883 * QuantumV * (+27)
18:00:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
18:05:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161123&oldid=161079 * QuantumV * (+13) add bounce
18:20:00 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
18:38:56 <esolangs> [[-string]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161124 * Runius * (+550) Created page with "==Language overview== '''-string''' is a language designed by [[User:Runius]] in July 2025 Inspired by [[This=That]] -string is a language which parses almost all text in the program before running it, making it very strong but also very difficult to write in. The full a
18:48:57 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161125&oldid=161124 * Runius * (+379)
18:58:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
18:59:00 -!- tromp has joined.
18:59:27 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161126&oldid=161125 * Runius * (+537)
19:00:14 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161127&oldid=161126 * Runius * (-23)
19:06:06 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161128&oldid=161127 * Runius * (+223)
19:10:31 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161129&oldid=161128 * Runius * (+381)
19:11:39 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161130&oldid=161129 * Runius * (+100)
19:17:46 <zzo38> Are the key pairs used in SSH compatible with the key pairs in TLS and X.509 (regardless of what the file format is)?
19:19:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161131&oldid=161130 * Runius * (+336)
19:21:38 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161132&oldid=161131 * Runius * (+12)
19:24:33 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161133&oldid=161132 * Runius * (+2)
19:26:47 -!- bongino has joined.
19:39:01 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:40:48 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161134&oldid=161133 * Runius * (+1304)
19:41:25 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161135&oldid=161134 * Runius * (+12)
19:41:33 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
19:44:17 <esolangs> [[0123456789.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161136&oldid=160678 * Stkptr * (+3701)
19:45:44 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161137&oldid=161135 * Runius * (+106)
19:48:57 -!- bongino has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:55:41 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161138&oldid=161137 * Runius * (+141)
19:57:01 -!- bongino has joined.
19:57:31 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161139&oldid=161138 * Runius * (+1)
19:58:33 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161140&oldid=161139 * Stkptr * (+707)
19:59:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161141&oldid=161140 * Runius * (+149)
20:05:55 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161142&oldid=161141 * Runius * (+75)
20:07:29 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161143&oldid=161142 * Runius * (+25)
20:08:14 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161144&oldid=161143 * Runius * (+38)
20:08:45 -!- molson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:08:58 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161145&oldid=161144 * Stkptr * (+98)
20:09:03 -!- molson has joined.
20:14:46 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:19:50 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161146&oldid=161145 * Runius * (+496)
20:27:23 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161147&oldid=161146 * Stkptr * (+3) Pull head up
20:40:56 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161148&oldid=161147 * Runius * (+136)
20:41:28 -!- tromp has joined.
20:58:13 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161149&oldid=161148 * Runius * (+389)
21:00:22 <esolangs> [[-string]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161150&oldid=161149 * Runius * (-56)
21:04:31 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
21:09:01 -!- molson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:11:41 -!- tromp has joined.
21:16:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:19:45 -!- Noisytoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:34:00 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
21:39:01 -!- Noisytoot has joined.
21:42:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:23:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:07:01 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:35:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161151&oldid=161112 * MijiGamin1 * (+222)
23:41:52 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161152&oldid=129429 * MijiGamin1 * (-44) fixed code
23:44:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:TerraScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161153 * MijiGamin1 * (+246) Created page with "==Interpreter/compiler?== Hello! Is there an interpreter/compiler for this language? I'd be interested in creating something in it, but I am curious as to how. Additionally, I would appreciate showing what the example programs print out. Thanks!"
00:58:56 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:03:24 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:19:45 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161154&oldid=161152 * Aadenboy * (-816) rewriting the programs to speak more naturally as this is, after all, English
01:32:35 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161155&oldid=161104 * I am islptng * (+877)
01:42:42 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161156&oldid=161155 * I am islptng * (+4)
01:47:11 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161157&oldid=161099 * I am islptng * (-5)
01:50:33 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161158&oldid=161156 * I am islptng * (-4) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/161156|161156]] by [[Special:Contributions/I am islptng|I am islptng]] ([[User talk:I am islptng|talk]])
01:54:18 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161159 * None1 * (+1231) Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[brainfuck]]}} Trigbf is also known as Trigbf7, you'll know why in the Dialects section. ==Memory== Trigbf uses an unbounded tape which contains signed unbounded infinite-precision real numbers. Initially, every cell is zero. ==Commands== Trigbf h
02:36:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hotcrystal0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161160&oldid=160686 * PrySigneToFry * (+179)
02:38:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161161&oldid=161120 * PrySigneToFry * (+313)
02:45:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161162&oldid=161088 * PrySigneToFry * (+441)
02:45:32 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161163&oldid=161157 * I am islptng * (+105)
02:58:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161164&oldid=161123 * None1 * (+13) /* T */
03:00:19 -!- sprock has joined.
03:04:23 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161165&oldid=160468 * None1 * (+142) /* My Esolangs */
03:04:59 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161166&oldid=161165 * None1 * (+0) /* My Esolangs */
03:05:58 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161167&oldid=161159 * None1 * (+45)
03:08:18 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161168&oldid=161167 * None1 * (+13) /* Examples */
03:59:40 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161169&oldid=161168 * None1 * (+497) TC/FSA
04:00:10 <esolangs> [[FSA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161170 * None1 * (+36) Redirected page to [[Finite-state automaton]]
04:00:30 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161171&oldid=161169 * None1 * (+0) /* Computational class */
04:02:49 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161172&oldid=161039 * None1 * (+50) /* T */ Add [[Trigbf]]
04:03:34 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161173&oldid=161171 * None1 * (+33) /* Computational class */
04:26:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
04:26:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:27:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
05:22:35 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161174&oldid=161158 * I am islptng * (+4)
05:40:13 -!- chloetax_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:41:30 -!- chloetax_ has joined.
06:01:31 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
06:34:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161175&oldid=159647 * I am islptng * (+170)
06:35:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161176&oldid=161175 * I am islptng * (+61) /* Box drawing extension */
06:36:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161177&oldid=161176 * I am islptng * (+7) /* Box drawing extension */
06:47:47 -!- tromp has joined.
07:01:24 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161178&oldid=161163 * I am islptng * (-25) /* Syntax */
07:01:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:27:42 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:41:04 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined.
09:34:27 <esolangs> [[User:BrainFuckGirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161179&oldid=152923 * BrainFuckGirl * (+58)
10:12:45 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161180&oldid=159158 * Zhil * (+155) Added John Tromp's translation from LC
10:13:14 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161181&oldid=161180 * Zhil * (-54)
10:14:15 -!- birle has joined.
10:14:24 -!- birle has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
10:16:40 <esolangs> [[Mlatu-6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161182&oldid=161181 * Zhil * (+151)
10:18:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161183&oldid=161177 * PrySigneToFry * (+327)
11:13:31 -!- amby has joined.
11:21:01 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:22:59 -!- tromp has joined.
11:31:46 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:37:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161184&oldid=161108 * Cycwin * (+160) /* how to say at the same time or up to down for the interpreter */ new section
11:47:53 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:04:17 -!- tromp has joined.
12:05:48 <esolangs> [[Astroscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161185 * PrySigneToFry * (+2789) Created page with "Astroscript is a programming language designed by PSTF and his AI friend(you should know who is he). = Overview = Astroscript is esoteric so you may feel hard to program in it. It is based on [[Tag system]]. = Syntax = Because it is based on [[Tag system]],
12:06:43 <esolangs> [[Astroscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161186&oldid=161185 * PrySigneToFry * (-47)
12:18:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161187&oldid=161161 * Pifrited * (+148) /* metoo */
12:26:54 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
13:56:12 -!- slavfox has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:56:40 -!- slavfox has joined.
14:15:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I was wrong about shape type 1 in shapez 2; at level 51 for that shape they throw in a new feature (pins). Ironically I reached this point without scaling up the MAM, I just spent hours on logistics (space trains) and designing and refining some basic building blocks while levels solved themselves slowly.
14:17:13 <int-e> anyway. maybe I'll shut up about it :)
14:18:17 <int-e> I haven't tackled the second shape type (which starts out with crystals, the other new feature, immediately) at all.
14:19:10 <int-e> New feature of shapes that is.
14:34:44 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:13:00 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161188&oldid=161183 * Aadenboy * (+518) /* Box drawing extension */
16:03:07 <b_jonas> int-e: "reached this point without scaling up" => based on my Factorio experience, this is normal in an automation game. when you first play the game you build very slowly, so even low throughput production will build up enough. later when you are more familiar with the games, in a new playthrough you can build the same factories much faster, so you have to scale them up so that you don't have to wait
16:03:13 <b_jonas> for the research or building materials.
16:04:06 <b_jonas> int-e: "maybe I'll shut up about it" => don't, I am interested to hear. not yet interested enough to spend the time to play shapez 2, maybe later, maybe never, who knows. but hearing about the game from people with similar interests like on #esoteric is exactly how I find out which games are worth to play.
16:04:39 <int-e> sure but there's no consumables here (at the difficulty I'm playing there isn't even a blueprint shape though they still have that).
16:04:54 <b_jonas> "at level 51 for that shape they throw in a new feature (pins)" => this answers my earlier question https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-07-09.html#lhb
16:05:12 <b_jonas> int-e: there are, you pay for the number of platforms that you can use
16:05:13 <int-e> I /guess/ the new game mode they've been teasing changes that. Because that's a natural way to keep old factories useful.
16:05:52 <b_jonas> and you still pay for the levels progressing, which is how you got to level 51 so now you have to build more factory before you can claim more levels
16:06:47 <int-e> b_jonas: oh they have the old progression in there too.. start with single slice, then two, then three, then four. Also start with no color, then primary colors, then secondary colors, and finally white.
16:06:48 <b_jonas> (and the occasional research multiplier)
16:07:08 <int-e> you get holes very early though
16:07:10 <b_jonas> int-e: how about uncolored quadrants or missing quadrants?
16:07:44 <int-e> uncolored = no color. everything is per quadrant, but the slices stack cleanly for this type.
16:08:04 <int-e> you can have more than one hole in a slice, that's new
16:09:04 <b_jonas> do they still sometimes break the symmetry of a shape by removing one quadrant? that one infuriated me very much in shapez 1, and makes the MAM slightly bigger
16:09:23 <int-e> they hardly have any symmetric shapes at all
16:09:46 <int-e> The very first shape I got had three different corners (all uncolored) and a hole.
16:10:15 <b_jonas> well it's not a problem until you have multiple layers
16:10:43 <int-e> Which I guess could have a mirror symmetry in theory, broken by the hole. But no, you have no symmetry later on either.
16:11:18 <int-e> Maybe to prevent people from trying to construct factories that exploit those symmetries ;-)
16:18:11 <b_jonas> in factorio 1, I was at first thinking that I'll paint then stack four full painted layers, cut the four layer shape to four quadrants, one for each of four future output shapes, then join these quadrants. even without symmetry, this would save on cutters. this could never work, because there can be missing corners, so I never really built it, except for two of the four layers which my factory does join
16:18:17 <b_jonas> then cut. symmetry helps a bit because I only need three painting lines per layer instead of four, with three set of color selectors. this is convenient because one painting line is double sized, but with double painters it still only needs just one belt of pigment, so it saves seven pigment filters per layer.
16:42:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:18:37 <Sgeo> I wonder what the maximum computational class is for a computing-like device that executes instructions on punched card (so, only reading instructions linearly) or paper tape (a paper tape can have a loop by physically gluing parts of it together)
18:19:28 <Sgeo> I want to understand the IBM CPC but its manual says it requires familiarity with two other manuals, and makes mention of even more manuals that I can't find
18:24:53 <int-e> b_jonas: There's a late game shapez 1 MAM concept that actually does the quadrant thing, exploiting the fact that there's at most one hole and that from a certain point onward, all shapes have four layers, so you can always a top part of a quadrant down after the fact. (It also uses mixed belts for shape and color selection and afaik nobody ever did the actual resource collection for that, but...
18:24:59 <int-e> ...there's a prototype with item producers)
18:25:56 <int-e> b_jonas: and that helps because stack-then-cut needs fewer full stacking stages too
18:27:14 <int-e> link was https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/11e54on/20_sec_bmam_flushless/
18:28:02 <int-e> (it doesn't support shapes with fewer than four layers at all)
18:30:08 <fizzie> Have I guessed correctly that "MAM" in this context means something like a "make-anything machine"?
18:31:25 <int-e> fizzie: with "anything" coming with an asterisk; it's usually restricted to the random shapes that the game can actually request in the late stages.
18:35:29 -!- bongino has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:37:34 -!- bongino has joined.
18:43:45 <b_jonas> reminder that https://sites.google.com/view/shapezio/home#h.c55sei35cjj4as some docs and screenshots about my shapez.io 1 MAM. not complete and not quite up to date, but close enough.
18:46:04 <int-e> I believe I have a save file of that... yup, from a bit over 3 years ago by the looks of it.
18:46:26 <b_jonas> that page however doesn't explain the stacker shortcuts in the part that makes the two complete layers
19:13:10 -!- tromp has joined.
20:28:47 -!- slavfox has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:00:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cutw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161189&oldid=119800 * MijiGamin1 * (+107) /* File extension? */ new section
22:17:33 -!- Lykaina has joined.
22:22:49 -!- slavfox has joined.
22:22:53 -!- Lykaina has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:18:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:51:47 <esolangs> [[Afstal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161190&oldid=161077 * Stkptr * (+361)
23:55:48 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Total]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161191&oldid=88358 * Corbin * (+191) /* Self-interpreters of total languages */
00:42:30 -!- molson has joined.
00:57:52 -!- nitrix has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:57:56 -!- nitrix_ has joined.
01:13:06 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
02:23:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
03:22:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hashibami * New user account
03:50:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161192&oldid=161151 * Hashibami * (+339) /* I come to talk and put my first edit at Esolang:Introduce yourself. 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC) */
03:50:40 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161193 * Hashibami * (+251) Created page with "heya, im Hashibami, this is the second time i writing this because i was not logged in (it auto logged me out for some reason), and btw, im brazilian, i joined in cuz i wanted to know more about esolangs, i discovered esolangs because of brainfuck btw"
03:51:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161194&oldid=161184 * Cycwin * (+299) /* tc proof? */ new section
03:53:43 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161195&oldid=161193 * Hashibami * (-47)
03:56:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161196&oldid=161194 * Cycwin * (+137) /* tc proof? */
04:00:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161197&oldid=161196 * Cycwin * (+107) /* tc proof? */
04:04:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161198&oldid=161197 * Cycwin * (+66) /* tc proof? */
04:08:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161199&oldid=161198 * Cycwin * (+29) /* tc proof? */
04:26:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
04:27:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:27:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
04:29:18 <esolangs> [[Deliver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161200&oldid=148714 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
04:39:00 <esolangs> [[SelfModify]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161201&oldid=123946 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
04:52:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:56:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:58:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AzideIon * New user account
06:07:13 -!- nitrix_ has changed nick to nitrix.
06:13:17 -!- tromp has joined.
07:26:43 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
07:47:18 -!- lisbeths has joined.
07:48:33 <lisbeths> korvo: I have reprogrammed most of python to work with s expressions instead of infix https://github.com/memesmith0/fastpyll/blob/main/fastpyll.scm
08:48:33 <esolangs> [[Staples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161202&oldid=160699 * Fish * (+658) gave Stkptr credit for the unofficial interpreter
08:52:44 <esolangs> [[Staples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161203&oldid=161202 * Fish * (+92) added external link (python downloader)
09:09:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:58:01 -!- amby has joined.
12:04:51 -!- bongino has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:00:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161204 * Pifrited * (+1066) Test
14:31:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161205 * Cycwin * (+166) Created page with "b (cycwin) conlang(--~~~~"
14:36:25 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161206&oldid=161204 * Pifrited * (+217)
14:39:56 -!- alexandros has joined.
14:45:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Feather]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161207 * Zaydiscool777 * (+139) salvation
14:48:24 <esolangs> [[User:Zaydiscool777]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161208&oldid=118181 * Zaydiscool777 * (+34) added bio
14:48:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alexandros * New user account
14:51:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161209&oldid=161192 * Alexandros * (+74) self-intro
15:09:42 -!- alexandros has quit (Quit: Client closed).
15:16:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161210&oldid=60212 * Zaydiscool777 * (+29)
16:29:30 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161211&oldid=151204 * Zaydiscool777 * (+52)
16:35:06 -!- molson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:42:37 <korvo> lisbeths: Fun times.
16:43:40 -!- tromp has joined.
16:44:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161212&oldid=161209 * AzideIon * (+157)
16:44:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161213&oldid=161210 * Corbin * (-29) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/161210|161210]] by [[Special:Contributions/Zaydiscool777|Zaydiscool777]] ([[User talk:Zaydiscool777|talk]]): Several pages are in consideration for featured language; ask on IRC or talk page for details.
17:14:09 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:16:35 -!- lynndotpy6 has quit (Quit: bye bye).
17:17:52 -!- lynndotpy6 has joined.
17:37:23 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:53:31 -!- tromp has joined.
18:18:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:23:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:40:17 -!- tromp has joined.
21:26:36 -!- lisbeths has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
22:17:01 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:42:35 <esolangs> [[Morte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161214 * Corbin * (+318) Stub.
23:43:58 <esolangs> [[Gabriella Gonzalez]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161215 * Corbin * (+97) Stub.
23:48:15 <korvo> esolangs: Who is Gabriella Gonzalez?
23:48:26 <esolangs> korvo: Gabriella Gonzalez is a programmer known for creating the esoteric programming languages Dhall and Morte. She is the sole author of both languages, which are based on the Calculus of Constructions.
23:49:40 <korvo> That second sentence is quite the confabulation, but it used "she", so it's a success.
00:00:03 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161216&oldid=160888 * Corbin * (+308) Cite Gonzalez 2014 and Morte.
00:26:32 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:17:30 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161217&oldid=161173 * None1 * (+1024)
01:19:48 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161218&oldid=161217 * None1 * (+384)
01:20:08 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161219&oldid=161218 * None1 * (-18)
01:20:39 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161220&oldid=161219 * None1 * (+40)
02:05:03 -!- op_4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:05:37 -!- op_4 has joined.
02:26:13 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161221&oldid=161220 * None1 * (+7412) /* Examples (In Trigbf7) */ Add hello world and generator
02:36:47 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161222&oldid=155339 * Dhzb * (+7)
02:37:07 <esolangs> [[CAP-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161223&oldid=156304 * Tpaefawzen * (+120) Implementation
02:43:23 <esolangs> [[CAP-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161224&oldid=161223 * Tpaefawzen * (+353) Examples
02:51:25 <esolangs> [[User:Dhzb/e.bf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161225 * Dhzb * (+868) Created page with "<pre> : Langton's Ant : uses socket plugin with image drawing server Fill everything with white ++.--..-...+ ++++[->++++<]>[-<++++++++>]<[->+>+<<]- >>>+[ Get pixel .<<.>.>>>, If white then clockwise >>+<<[>+<+>>-<<] If black then counter-clockwise >>[-<->]<<[
03:00:42 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161226 * Hashibami * (+371) Created page with "Deadmop was created in 2025 by me, iHashibami. It was made just to be basic, to be serious I don't even know if it is a esolangs. As Im new to esolangs.org, I don't know more content to add in here, but soon I'll bring the commands and stuff, by the way, it is stack ba
03:31:20 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161227&oldid=161226 * Hashibami * (+644)
04:06:42 -!- sprock has joined.
04:25:16 <esolangs> [[Csub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161228&oldid=77956 * MijiGamin1 * (+12) dead link
04:25:49 <esolangs> [[2484345508]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161229&oldid=140612 * MijiGamin1 * (+9) stub
04:26:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
04:26:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:28:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
04:44:40 -!- molson has joined.
04:58:22 <esolangs> [[Not finite loop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161230&oldid=123508 * MijiGamin1 * (+8) stub
04:59:46 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161231 * MijiGamin1 * (+140) its a start
05:01:08 <esolangs> [[User:MijiGamin1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161232&oldid=161231 * MijiGamin1 * (+48) added p-a link
05:25:24 -!- molson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:33:28 -!- molson has joined.
05:41:54 -!- molson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:42:23 -!- molson has joined.
05:42:48 -!- molson has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:42:58 -!- molson has joined.
05:43:22 -!- molson has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:43:41 -!- molson has joined.
06:21:10 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161233&oldid=143566 * Corbin * (+3) More specific categorization.
06:37:19 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161234&oldid=161221 * None1 * (+3418) /* Examples (In Trigbf7) */ Add more examples
06:37:35 <esolangs> [[Trigbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161235&oldid=161234 * None1 * (+15) /* Interpreter (Trigbf7 dialect) */
06:54:23 -!- tromp has joined.
07:21:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shivani * New user account
07:27:59 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161236&oldid=161178 * Cycwin * (+3328) /* Interpreter */
07:34:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161237&oldid=161212 * Shivani * (+257)
07:37:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
07:39:42 -!- tromp has joined.
07:48:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:16:31 -!- tromp has joined.
08:33:24 <esolangs> [[User:Shivani]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161238 * Shivani * (+344) Created page with "Hi, Im Shivani a curious kid wandering through programming, life, and everything in between. I created Ku, an Esolang where code takes the form of haiku not as decoration, but as computation itself. I also built [https://github.com/NewSmoke38/beasty-the-http-se
08:39:51 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
09:31:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:41:01 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161239&oldid=151761 * Hashibami * (+34) /* Commands */
09:59:17 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161240 * Hashibami * (+386) Created page with "A box with balls (Abwb for short) is an esolang made by me, Hashibami, as a joke around an paradox, the paradox says: "If in a box, there is 10 balls, and every time you take one, you add the current amount of balls in the box, and you do it indefinitely, when
10:00:01 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161241&oldid=161240 * Hashibami * (-23)
10:01:49 -!- tromp has joined.
10:09:44 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161242&oldid=161241 * Hashibami * (+389)
10:10:51 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161243&oldid=161242 * Hashibami * (-2) /* Commands */
10:12:42 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161244&oldid=161243 * Hashibami * (+34) /* Commands */
10:16:28 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161245&oldid=161244 * Hashibami * (+681) /* Interpreter for Python */
10:17:14 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161246&oldid=161245 * Hashibami * (+4)
10:17:58 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161247&oldid=161246 * Hashibami * (+5)
10:21:05 <esolangs> [[Ku]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161248 * Shivani * (+8393) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin:0 0 1em 1em; width: 25em;" |+ Ku |- ! Paradigm(s) | poetic, imperative, stack-based |- ! Designed by | [[User:Shivani]] |- ! Created in | 2025 |- ! Memory system | stack-based |- ! Dimensions | one-dimensional |- ! Computationa
10:23:34 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161249&oldid=161248 * Shivani * (+0)
11:08:40 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:14:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161250&oldid=161195 * Hashibami * (+46)
11:15:08 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161251&oldid=161250 * Hashibami * (+15) /* Projects */
11:15:35 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161252&oldid=161251 * Hashibami * (-14) /* Projects */
11:17:09 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161253&oldid=161227 * Hashibami * (+10)
11:17:46 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161254&oldid=161253 * Hashibami * (-1021) Replaced content with "none"
11:18:03 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161255&oldid=161254 * Hashibami * (+18)
11:18:11 <esolangs> [[Deadmop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161256&oldid=161255 * Hashibami * (+1)
11:18:42 <esolangs> [[User:Hashibami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161257&oldid=161252 * Hashibami * (-13) /* Projects */
11:22:54 -!- tromp has joined.
11:39:38 <esolangs> [[A box with balls]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161258&oldid=161247 * Hashibami * (+1) /* Interpreter for Python */
11:42:43 <esolangs> [[User:Shivani]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161259&oldid=161238 * Shivani * (+24)
11:42:48 <FireFly> esolangs: can you elaborate on the calculus of constructions?
11:46:27 <esolangs> FireFly: The Calculus of Constructions (CoC) is a powerful mathematical framework for describing and manipulating data structures and logical relationships. It's based on the idea of "constructions" – functions that create new data structures from existing ones. CoC uses a system of "arrows" to represent functions and relationships, allowing for the...
11:46:27 <esolangs> creation of complex structures and the manipulation of data. It's a foundational concept in various fields, including logic programming, functional programming, and theoretical computer science.
11:46:50 <esolangs> [[Frequency]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161260 * Hashibami * (+0) Created blank page
11:52:33 <esolangs> [[Frequency]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161261&oldid=161260 * Hashibami * (+12)
12:29:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] to [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]]
12:29:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Pifrited * moved [[User talk:Pifrited/UnnameLang]] to [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]]
13:30:06 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
13:31:39 -!- perlbot has joined.
13:44:51 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161266&oldid=161262 * Pifrited * (+2629)
13:50:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161267&oldid=161264 * Pifrited * (+137)
14:03:34 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
14:07:12 -!- birle has joined.
14:07:12 -!- birle has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
14:26:41 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
14:26:51 -!- birle has joined.
14:26:51 -!- birle has changed hostmask to ~birle@user/birle.
14:31:59 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161268&oldid=161266 * Pifrited * (+778)
14:33:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161269&oldid=161187 * Pifrited * (+116) /* metoo */
14:37:38 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
14:37:52 -!- birle has joined.
14:44:37 -!- vyv has joined.
14:51:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161270&oldid=161267 * Cycwin * (+110)
14:54:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161271&oldid=161269 * Cycwin * (+127) /* metoo */
15:01:33 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161272&oldid=161174 * I am islptng * (-155) Bold.
15:05:47 -!- chomwitt has joined.
15:22:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
15:59:19 -!- tromp has joined.
16:21:38 -!- molson has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:36:23 -!- vyv has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
17:21:35 -!- visilii_ has joined.
17:21:47 -!- visilii has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
17:54:31 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck is not turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161273&oldid=146540 * Hashibami * (+52) /* Proof */
18:23:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinational logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161274&oldid=147417 * Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff * (+305)
18:40:43 -!- molson has joined.
18:54:05 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
19:20:42 <esolangs> [[Zaddy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161275&oldid=160832 * Corbin * (+72) /* E-matching */ Bluelink.
19:29:44 -!- tromp has joined.
19:35:17 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161276&oldid=161211 * Ractangle * (-148) the first one already follows the PEP8 rules
19:37:10 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161277&oldid=154716 * Ractangle * (+65) /* "Examples" */
19:52:54 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161278&oldid=161249 * Shivani * (+10)
20:07:58 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:43:38 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161279&oldid=151494 * Ractangle * (+84)
20:46:35 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161280&oldid=161278 * Shivani * (+179)
20:46:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161281&oldid=161279 * Ractangle * (-1) /* Interpreter */ oh look, new interpreter upadate
20:47:12 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161282&oldid=161280 * Shivani * (-10)
20:47:45 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161283&oldid=161281 * Ractangle * (+2) /* Interpreter */
20:49:39 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161284&oldid=161283 * Ractangle * (-15) /* Interpreter */
20:51:57 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161285&oldid=161284 * Ractangle * (+77) /* computational class */
20:52:51 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161286&oldid=161285 * Ractangle * (-2) /* Interpreter */
20:53:29 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161287&oldid=161286 * Ractangle * (-4) /* Syntax */
20:56:18 <esolangs> [[How dare you fuck the brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161288&oldid=161287 * Ractangle * (-49) /* Syntax */
21:16:03 -!- chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:48:02 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:20:54 -!- birle has quit (Quit: birle).
00:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161289&oldid=161268 * Pifrited * (+215) /* Examples */
00:02:57 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161290&oldid=161289 * Pifrited * (+0)
04:27:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:29:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
04:49:00 -!- citrons has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:01:24 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161291&oldid=161272 * I am islptng * (+46) /* Other things */
06:45:48 -!- tromp has joined.
07:18:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:30:55 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
07:50:24 -!- tromp has joined.
08:13:14 <esolangs> [[Ku]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161292&oldid=161282 * Shivani * (+0)
08:19:44 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161293&oldid=161290 * Pifrited * (+65)
08:44:03 -!- chomwitt has joined.
08:44:14 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:46:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161294&oldid=161270 * I am islptng * (+152)
09:48:35 -!- tromp has joined.
10:01:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161295&oldid=161294 * Pifrited * (+143)
10:23:30 <esolangs> [[Bobr Kurwa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161296&oldid=159369 * Bobr123654 * (+6)
11:04:13 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161297&oldid=161293 * Pifrited * (+661) /* Examples */
11:15:20 <esolangs> [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161298&oldid=155900 * B jonas * (-51) rv https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Piet&diff=prev&oldid=155084 by JHSHernandez-ZBH 12:52, 4 April 2025
11:22:18 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161299&oldid=161297 * Pifrited * (+144) /* Truth-machine */
11:23:04 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161300&oldid=161299 * Pifrited * (+4) /* Truth-machine */
11:24:32 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161301&oldid=161300 * Pifrited * (-22) /* Truth-machine */ Reduce
11:54:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161302&oldid=161295 * I am islptng * (+173)
12:24:18 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161303&oldid=161301 * Pifrited * (+547)
12:36:32 -!- amby has joined.
12:37:34 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161304&oldid=161303 * Pifrited * (+24) Test
12:46:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161305&oldid=161302 * Pifrited * (+153)
12:46:45 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161306&oldid=161304 * Pifrited * (-24)
13:11:24 <esolangs> [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161307&oldid=49846 * Krolkrol * (+3047)
13:24:03 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
13:28:34 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161308&oldid=161236 * I am islptng * (+294)
13:37:21 -!- tromp has joined.
13:52:54 -!- chomwitt has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:48:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:43:36 <korvo> Do Bubblegum, Malbolge, and other source-encrypted languages have native type theories? I think that the answer is "yes" but I'm open to discussion.
16:49:55 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:30:17 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:42:16 -!- tromp has joined.
18:44:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:44:30 <ais523> korvo: I think the answer might depend on the language
18:45:02 <ais523> e.g. Bubblegum is effectively Python from the type-theory point of view – you can (at least in theory) make the program valid by adding a comment and that has no type-theoretical impact
18:45:22 <ais523> whereas for Malbolge, the fact that the commands change when executed feels like it might be something that is part of a type theory
18:45:43 <ais523> in particular, which cycle a command belongs to is considered a very important aspect of Malbolge programming
18:46:04 <korvo> Sure, the native type theory (NTT?) knows what Bubblegum's ints are, because they're equivalent to Python's ints under the encryption. Encryption only makes it hard for us to compute whether programs are equivalent, but it doesn't change whether that equivalence exists.
18:46:24 <ais523> (but, commands can be overwritten in memory, moving them onto other cycles, and in practice usually are because most of the useful cycles aren't accessible from the source code)
18:46:47 <ais523> I think Bubblegum is more of a signed programming language than an encrypted programming language
18:47:13 <ais523> it is comparatively easy to determine whether a Bubblegum program would be interpreted as Python, and if it is, it is exactly equivalent to the Python program with the same source code
18:47:44 <ais523> but, it is difficult to find the right magic comment to make the interpreter treat it as Python rather than as raw compressed data to output
18:48:24 <ais523> A Pear Tree is also an interesting example – it's in the same area as Bubblegum, except that the task of finding the correct magic comment actually is computationally tractable
18:49:26 <ais523> (which was intentional – I've written quite a few A Pear Tree programs, but it would be difficult without having a chosen-prefix-preimage algorithm available)
18:51:33 <korvo> I don't think A Pear Tree is different from Bubblegum here. I mean, obviously it's got a different topology, but it *has* a topology.
18:52:01 <ais523> right, they're in the same category of languages, even though the applications are completely different
18:52:23 <ais523> A Pear Tree is designed to let you specify redundant versions of your program, so that it can still run correctly if some of them are damaged
18:52:34 <korvo> As usual, But Is It Art? is a bit of a question. Wang tiles have a NTT though, based on the idea that the *set* of Wang tiles has a topology of subsets, so maybe BIIA? also admits something where we consider the set of tiles and its subsets.
18:52:37 <ais523> (and even to react to the exact nature of the damage, if necessary)
18:53:16 <ais523> do languages like Deadfish have a native type theory? I'm guessing "yes, but it's degenerate"
18:53:18 <korvo> ais523: I suppose it's worth remembering that the NTT of a language might have nothing to do with the strategies that we use for encoding simple examples, or even for larger encodings like homomorphisms or compilation schemes.
18:54:23 <korvo> Yeah. I don't know *how* it degenerates offhand, but I can imagine that there are two equivalent Deadfish programs, and that's enough for a non-trivial NTT.
18:54:24 <ais523> BIIA? feels to me more like a language *backend* than a language itself, from the type-theoretical point of view
18:54:56 <ais523> you do have a type theory, but certain programming patterns give you a richer type theory
18:55:30 <korvo> Yeah. An NTT will always be dependently-typed, but maybe there aren't any interesting type constructors.
18:56:14 <ais523> for example, you can imagine a BIAA? program where all the commands are almost-rectangles whose sides are multiples of a particular constant, and you connect them together jigsaw-style by placing protusions on the sides that match recesses on the sides of other almost-rectangles
18:56:18 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:56:34 <ais523> and in that case, the program is parametric over the shapes of the protusions
18:56:34 <korvo> Although NTT usually will at least have Hoare logic. The reason that Wang tiles and BIIA? are weird here is precisely because they don't admit a Hoare logic either.
18:57:20 <ais523> BIIA? with arbitrary shapes is much harder to reason about
18:57:51 <ais523> actually, I guess I am thinking about a compiler from Wang tiles to BIIA? – the compilation is clearly very easy but there are multiple equivalent ways to do it
18:58:19 <ais523> and I think I would want a way to abstract over the difference in details, *but* I am not sure that that abstraction would generalise to arbitrary BIIA? programs
18:59:55 <ais523> …and now I have an esolang idea: BIIA? but the corners aren't limited to 90° and the sides aren't limited to integers, and a program halts if it is unable to tile the plane
19:00:45 -!- joast has joined.
19:01:42 <ais523> I suspect this is both a little harder to program in than BIIA? and substantially harder to implement, so there aren't any real advantages other than the aesthetics
19:01:44 <ais523> but that might be enough
19:02:37 <ais523> (I'm pretty sure it's at least TC, but am not sure it is computable, even if you require the side lengths and angles to be computable)
19:05:23 <korvo> I guess that it depends on what a language is. If a language is a collection of texts with some attached semantics, and semantics have some ordering or equivalence, then there's an underlying category or groupoid which leads to NTT.
19:05:41 <korvo> So escaping that means not having texts, not having semantics, or not having ordering or equivalence.
19:08:45 <korvo> For Wang tiles, consider a set of tiles that is TC and that also has two different subsets which are TC. Those subsets are non-trivially equivalent, so we get a groupoid. I think this applies to BIIA? as well. I have no idea about your new extension though.
19:09:53 <korvo> ...Wait, the equivalence might not be a bijection, so we get a category. Still works for NTT.
19:42:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
19:58:25 <zzo38> I don't know what "native type theory" means
20:00:53 <korvo> It's a specific construction in category theory that assigns a dependent type theory to programming languages. This blog post is a pretty good introduction: https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2021/02/native_type_theory.html
20:02:05 <korvo> If the original language is a constructive dependently-typed theory already, then it *is* its own native type theory. That's the intuition. For languages like Python, type-like concepts like ints and lists are identifiable, and we can do Hoare logic over them.
20:10:08 <b_jonas> ais523: BIIA kind of also lets you encode redundant copies of the program so if one is damaged the program still works and the damaged shapes can't fit anywhere. except this doesn't work if the damage creates a small shape (or a few small shapes) that tile the plane, eg. a one-tile shape, either by adding a new shape or cutting off a small piece of an existing shape.
20:42:53 <fizzie> Meh, SendGrid is turning off their free tier (which I use for esolangs.org outgoing emails) in two weeks or so. Have to migrate to something else.
21:05:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161309&oldid=160767 * Hotcrystal0 * (+159)
21:15:22 -!- citrons has joined.
21:44:18 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161310 * HecknTarnation * (+4366) Creation
21:44:46 <esolangs> [[User:HecknTarnation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161311&oldid=139642 * HecknTarnation * (+19)
21:46:15 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161312&oldid=161310 * HecknTarnation * (+0) /* Resources */
21:49:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161313&oldid=161309 * Hotcrystal0 * (+134)
22:08:29 <fizzie> I used to just run an SMTP server in the old-fashioned way, but it became hard to get emails reliably delivered.
22:15:38 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:16:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:18:32 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161314&oldid=161313 * Hotcrystal0 * (+126)
23:13:51 -!- ^[ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:46:46 <esolangs> [[Neb's Art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161315&oldid=161312 * HecknTarnation * (+6) /* Instructions */
00:52:52 -!- amby has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:03:04 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161316&oldid=160951 * Hotcrystal0 * (-5141)
01:07:49 -!- ^[ has joined.
01:09:45 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161317&oldid=161316 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
01:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161318&oldid=161317 * Hotcrystal0 * (+226)
01:15:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161319&oldid=161318 * Hotcrystal0 * (+34)
01:17:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Chess piece strength]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161320&oldid=161029 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
04:27:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:27:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
05:25:00 <esolangs> [[CounterClockWise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161321&oldid=161308 * I am islptng * (+73)
05:56:20 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161322&oldid=161306 * Pifrited * (-396) nm
06:08:01 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:08:26 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
06:30:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:34:51 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:35:09 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
06:58:04 -!- tromp has joined.
08:17:37 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:24:21 -!- tromp has joined.
08:29:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EiroWarn * New user account
08:33:38 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:53:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161323&oldid=161237 * EiroWarn * (+177) /* I come to talk and put my first edit at Esolang:Introduce yourself. 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC) */
09:10:33 <esolangs> [[User:EiroWarn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161324 * EiroWarn * (+102) Created page with "I am an Esolang enthusiast and also a programming enthusiast. I currently haven't created an Esolang."
09:50:17 -!- tromp has joined.
10:09:57 <esolangs> [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161325&oldid=161307 * Krolkrol * (+951)
10:15:18 <esolangs> [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161326&oldid=161325 * Krolkrol * (+85)
10:23:39 <APic> Celebrate Confuflux! Hail Eris! 😇
10:23:39 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161327&oldid=161322 * Pifrited * (-151)
10:32:50 -!- qqqqqqqq has joined.
10:33:14 -!- qqqqqqqq has quit (Client Quit).
11:05:13 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
11:25:36 -!- tromp has joined.
11:55:31 -!- amby has joined.
12:30:01 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck is not turing complete but every time a word repeats it loops]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161328 * Tommyaweosme * (+8077) if you can read this without skipping anything then you are 1000% insane.
12:32:17 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck is not turing complete but every time a word repeats it loops]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161329&oldid=161328 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) fixing newline
12:44:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pifrited/NameNeeded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161330&oldid=161305 * Pifrited * (+118) /* Name */ new section
13:04:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161331&oldid=161314 * Hotcrystal0 * (+167)
13:06:01 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Idea]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=161332 * Pifrited * (+104) .
13:06:37 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161333&oldid=161331 * Hotcrystal0 * (+99)
13:06:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161334&oldid=161333 * Hotcrystal0 * (+7)
13:08:31 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
13:15:42 -!- tromp has joined.
13:22:29 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:24:11 -!- sprock has joined.
13:27:22 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
15:22:23 <esolangs> [[Branjunk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161335&oldid=149482 * Ractangle * (+4) /* Hello World */
15:26:30 -!- molson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:26:31 -!- molson_ has joined.
15:34:29 <esolangs> [[GRPE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161336&oldid=106611 * Bil-joodusstudios * (+981) Rewrote computation class section
15:50:34 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161337&oldid=161058 * Tommyaweosme * (+247)
16:02:02 -!- Trigon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:02:13 -!- Trigon has joined.
16:20:53 -!- FreeFull has quit.
16:27:26 -!- tromp has joined.
17:27:31 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:28:41 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:35:56 -!- tromp has joined.
17:41:53 <esolangs> [[Modiv]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=161338&oldid=160592 * Krolkrol * (-7)
19:23:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
To update automatically, stalker mode requires a reasonably modern browser with scripts enabled. If this message does not disappear, it's either because of that or a bug. Feel free to get in touch on channel for debugging. Or just work around the issue by manually reloading.