00:00:25 <lament> although in case of Io, "generally accepted" would be "accepted by both Io users"
00:00:31 <lament> s/be/mean
00:00:35 <Taaus> Ouch.
00:01:08 <Taaus> lol... This is from the pragprog mailing list... About the new "Pragmatic" language:
00:01:14 <Taaus> > Just remember that as yet there are no functions, no methods, no calling 
00:01:14 <Taaus> > conventions, nothing. All that is built on the block concept. 
00:01:15 <Taaus>         I agree and that is all well and fine but we *MUST* map it onto a 1-d tape
00:01:18 <Taaus> of bits and primative state transforms at some point.
00:01:25 <Taaus> They're going down.
00:02:24 <lament> what _is_ pragmatic programming?
00:02:35 <Taaus> Programming that gets the job done.
00:03:16 <Taaus> http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/
00:03:59 <lament> ruby!
00:04:06 <Taaus> Shut yo' mouth!
00:04:50 <lament> i can't
00:04:52 <Taaus> The Pragmatic Programmers are big proponents of Ruby, yeah.
00:04:52 <lament> it's ruby!
00:04:58 <Taaus> Ruby annoys me.
00:05:16 <lament> grrrr
00:05:22 <lament> You can think of Ruby as a mix of Perl and Smalltalk, or look at it as Python with full object-orientation.
00:05:33 <lament> o.k...
00:06:16 <Taaus> I'm familiar with Ruby. The Smalltalk bits I like... The Perl bits give me the willies.
00:06:25 <lament> yes, but that quote is still WRONG
00:06:58 <lament> the python bit
00:07:04 <Taaus> Oh. I didn't know it was a quote... For one it didn't have quote marks...
00:07:12 <Taaus> Yeah, I was puzzled by that.
00:07:54 <lament> If i send them an email asking to change that, will they?
00:08:11 <Taaus> Ask them to explain it first :)
00:08:18 <lament> heh
00:08:25 <lament> good idea.
00:09:01 <Taaus> BRB... Mmmm. Tea.
00:10:15 <Taaus> Damn... The dishwasher is still running... No tea for the next 20 minutes :(
00:12:10 <lament> i sent them an email.
00:12:23 <lament> But i think they just wrote that because it's a trendy thing to write.
00:12:50 <Taaus> Yeah, probably.
00:13:10 <lament> Also the whole website is just too buzzwordy.
00:13:30 <Taaus> I think it's aimed at managers... No such thing as 'too buzzwordy' in that case ;)
00:13:38 <lament> "Andy specializes in blending tried-and-true techniques with leading-edge technologies, creating novel -- but practical -- solutions."
00:13:51 <Taaus> Admittedly, that is rather bad.
00:14:44 <lament> at least they wrote leading, not bleeding.
00:15:13 <Taaus> I don't think 'bleeding-edge' appeals to managers.
00:15:35 <lament> Is the mailing list also aimed at managers?
00:16:13 <Taaus> Nah. It's a bunch of people who claim to be pragmatic programmers. And me.
00:16:37 <lament> Hopefully you make fun of them!
00:16:49 <Taaus> Not really my style.
00:18:13 <lament> Actually
00:18:20 <lament> I thought pragmatic programmers were called software engineers.
00:18:38 <Taaus> Maybe they are. I wouldn't know...
00:18:49 <Taaus> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/cgi-local/pragprog?NamingTheProgram <--- Heh...
00:19:24 <Taaus> The RequestedFeatures page is a hoot too.
00:19:44 <lament> "The material in this Wiki is Copyright (c) 2001 the Pragmatic Programmers, LLC, and may well end up in our next book. By posting to this Wiki, you agree that we can use your ideas. Please sign what you enter, and we'll do our best to attribute what you say."
00:19:53 <lament> I don't like those people at all.
00:20:15 <Taaus> lol. Never noticed that.
00:20:41 <Taaus> Scheme
00:20:41 <Taaus>   * Too hard to learn
00:20:41 <Taaus>   * Too much like assembly language (Scheme is the assembly of the lambda calculus)
00:20:45 <Taaus>   * Not enough industry support
00:20:47 <Taaus>   * Rotten FFI
00:20:49 <Taaus> (Reasons why it isn't Pragmatic)
00:20:53 <lament> haha
00:21:06 <Taaus> I really like reason #3... That's really a language flaw... Mmm... Yep.
00:21:33 <lament> that's not a language flaw
00:21:38 <lament> just a reason why it's not pragmatic
00:21:46 <lament> I prefer the reason 1
00:21:49 <Taaus> Hehe.
00:22:16 <Taaus> Well, I bet there's more industry support for Scheme than for Pragmatic.
00:22:19 <lament> Of course it's too hard to learn - it does'nt use C syntax
00:22:29 <Taaus> C
00:22:29 <Taaus>   * Not sufficiently abstract
00:22:29 <Taaus>   * Too easy to shoot yourself in the foot
00:22:37 <lament> That's true.
00:22:42 <Taaus> Yep.
00:23:24 <Taaus> Hmm... I need to try CHICKEN.
00:24:37 <lament> Careful with what you post on the list. It's probably also copyright (c) Them
00:24:48 <Taaus> Have you seen the list of requested features?
00:25:06 <lament> no
00:25:16 <Taaus> #  Proper Tail Recursion
00:25:16 <Taaus> # Lisp-like Macros
00:25:16 <lament> I can guess!
00:25:17 <Taaus> # Simple syntax
00:25:22 <lament> Er, I can't
00:25:24 <Taaus> And first-class functions.
00:25:27 <lament> !
00:25:50 <lament> # Industry support
00:26:19 <Taaus> :D
00:28:36 <lament> yay, attacking #python people
00:28:53 <Taaus> Yah... People who are spreading FUD!!
00:47:45 <Taaus> Well, that was fun.
00:59:17 <lament> yes. bye.
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19:51:24 <lament> hm
19:51:47 <lament> the esoteric programming language list on purists.org has been renamed "stupid programming languages"
19:52:11 <lament> Also they write Brainfork instead of Brainfuck
19:52:28 <lament> and never even hint that that's not its true name
19:52:44 <lament> :(
20:11:30 <lament> er wait
20:11:35 <lament> brainfuck was renamed?!?
20:17:52 <Taaus> Never!
20:18:19 <Taaus> Brainfork is a lame name.
20:18:22 <lament> Indeed.
20:18:28 <Taaus> It isn't supposed to fork your brain.
20:18:33 <lament> Indeed.
20:18:42 <lament> bah, stupid purists.org
20:18:48 <lament> "stupid languages" hah!
20:18:55 <Taaus> Hmm... I thought purists.org was kraml.at, or something?
20:19:05 <lament> well, yes.
20:19:11 <lament> i can't memorize the new url.
20:19:34 <Taaus> Fair 'nuff.
20:22:44 * Taaus prods lament with a named let.
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20:24:59 <Taaus> andreou! Defender of the ppl!
20:25:40 <andreou> Sleepy defender of the people, for that matter.
20:26:11 <Taaus> Well, if you're sleepy, you should... Wait for it... Sleep!
20:26:27 <lament> no!
20:26:32 <lament> You must'n't!
20:26:40 <Taaus> What is your opinion on purists.org renaming Brainfuck to Brainfork?
20:26:53 <andreou> What?
20:26:56 <andreou> WHAT?
20:27:20 <Taaus> That was pretty much the reaction I expected.
20:28:10 <andreou> And I expect they'll be using {} for [], () for <> and, what, _= for -+?
20:29:07 <Taaus> Well... It could be worse... They could have renamed it to Ook. (A language I consider to be totally superfluous)
20:29:57 <andreou> Well, from my point of view, they can rename it to DisneyDrum too. It will still be a great Brainfucking experience, no matter how it's called.
20:30:05 <lament> Taaus: bah, ook is ok
20:30:10 <lament> i mean, ok is ook
20:30:13 <andreou> You can call it a trip, a paper, an LSD shot, it's still a high :-) .
20:30:17 <lament> Taaus: The coolest language ever is e!
20:30:20 <lament> or whatever it's called
20:30:25 <andreou> e?
20:30:27 <Taaus> What does Ook give me that Brainfuck doesn't?
20:30:32 <Taaus> (Besides RSI)
20:30:37 <andreou> hrh
20:30:41 <andreou> erm
20:30:42 <andreou> heh :)
20:30:46 <lament> andreou: the one that guy on esolang proposed a year ago
20:30:47 <lament> or more
20:30:56 <Taaus> Oooh... I remember that language.
20:31:04 <lament> which uses exclamation marks for everything, but otherwise is just brainfuck.... without loops
20:31:06 <andreou> Got pointers?
20:31:08 <Taaus> I preferred the name 'straightfuck' that someone suggested ;)
20:31:28 <andreou> Why did the name change issue came up *at all*?
20:31:53 <lament> Taaus: i remember people decided that "brain" is too obscene
20:31:56 <Taaus> The Brainfuck->Brainfork one?
20:32:00 <lament> Taaus: so they wanted to rename the language to "fuck"
20:32:08 <andreou> The Brainfuck->* one.
20:32:20 <lament> andreou: because purists.org DID change the name
20:32:22 <Taaus> Well, apparently purists.org is a bunch of prudes.
20:32:46 <lament> andreou: they also renamed their esoteric programming languages list to "stupid programming languages"
20:32:52 <andreou> No, they didn't. They *think* they have, but they haven't.
20:33:29 <andreou> So, purists.org should be removed from the Obfuscated Languages list at dmoz. :-)
20:33:32 <lament> that's like calling fugue a stupid genre, because they're hard to write!
20:33:39 <lament> !!!
20:33:42 <lament> !!!!!!!
20:33:46 <lament> Ook! OOk!
20:33:48 <Taaus> I love writing fugues :)
20:34:00 <lament> Taaus: how many have you written?
20:34:09 <Taaus> Two or three. 
20:34:18 <Taaus> I've written more inventions.
20:34:29 <lament> you're mad
20:34:31 <Taaus> (It was part of the first year of my music studies)
20:34:32 <lament> are they good?
20:34:42 <Taaus> The quality... Varies :P
20:34:47 <lament> fugues in first year!
20:35:08 <lament> I wish i studied music.
20:35:11 <andreou> lament then it's ok, it's *they* who's mad, not taaus.
20:35:44 <Taaus> lament: It doesn't exactly help matter that I'm a complete Bach nut. Me and some other music students even started a Bach lodge.
20:36:20 <lament> a bach lodge!
20:36:32 <lament> why are you a music student?
20:36:41 <Taaus> Because music rocks?
20:36:57 <lament> i thought you were a CS student or something like that.
20:37:19 <Taaus> Nah. I'm not good at that stuff.. (j/k)
20:37:31 <Taaus> Actually, I'm switching to Mathematics in a few months.
20:37:41 <lament> sick
20:37:57 <Taaus> :)
20:38:22 <lament> speaking of bach, do you have richter's first WTC recording?
20:39:01 <Taaus> I don't think so, no.
20:39:11 <Taaus> Is it good? :)
20:39:14 <andreou> Food is here.
20:39:31 <lament> Taaus: you have to ask?
20:39:33 <Taaus> Bon appetit, andreou!
20:39:38 <lament> what kind of bach nut _are_ you? :)
20:39:54 <Taaus> I'm the kind of Bach nut that thinks Glenn Gould is a demigod ;)
20:40:08 <Taaus> And Koopman on the organ. *drool*
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20:42:02 <lament> ew, gould!
20:42:34 <lament> the humming bach-playing machine!
20:42:40 <Taaus> Indeed.
20:43:04 <Taaus> Do you have any idea how difficult it is to play Bach and hum at the same time?
20:43:34 <lament> do you have any idea how difficult it is to liston to Bach and to humming at the same time?
20:43:37 <lament> *listen
20:43:59 <Taaus> Yes. It really isn't an issue.
20:44:10 <lament> yes it is!
20:44:25 <Taaus> Oh well... De gustibus no est disputandum, I guess.
20:44:34 <lament> anyway, listen to the first prelude from WTC in gould and richter recordings
20:45:12 <Taaus> I'm tired of the WTC 1 prelude in C.
20:45:28 <lament> Yes, but it's good for comparison.
20:45:33 <Taaus> I disagree.
20:45:34 <lament> Gould plays it without legato.
20:45:44 <lament> It sounds like crap.
20:45:50 <Taaus> In your opinion.
20:45:53 <lament> Yes!
20:46:19 <lament> But at least I've listened to both versions!
20:46:32 <Taaus> Good thing your opinion doesn't matter to me :)
20:47:23 <lament> gould is too much of an 'entertainer'. All those show-off photos, humming, etc
20:48:10 * Taaus shrugs
20:48:11 <lament> anyway, why am i arguing, i haven't even written any fugues!
20:48:16 <lament> I should write one.
20:48:18 <lament> In Befunge.
20:48:29 <lament> A Befugue in C.
20:48:33 <Taaus> Good luck.
20:49:19 <Taaus> Grrr... The DrScheme editor annoys me.
20:49:34 <lament> don't use it.
20:49:46 <lament> For both applicable values of it!
20:50:08 <Taaus> What do you propose I use instead? Bigloo?
20:50:34 <lament> maybe even bigloo!
20:51:23 <lament> hm, befunge doesn't have threads
20:51:34 <lament> certainly doesn't have voices
20:52:24 <Taaus> Just make it output Lilypond code ;)
20:52:44 <lament> hm, that would be neat
20:53:06 <lament> except i couldn't install lilypond last time i tried
20:53:22 <Taaus> I actually started working on an online collaborative fugue-writing system for our Bach-lodge homepage... But I never got very far :(
20:53:38 <lament> fugue-writing system?
20:53:49 <lament> that sounds evil
20:53:49 <Taaus> Yes. Using Lilypond.
20:53:56 <lament> that sounds like something gould would enjoy!
20:54:06 <Taaus> lol
20:56:38 <lament> outputting raw MIDI would be neat.
21:02:04 <lament> wow, MIDI has major and minor scales. How quaint.
21:02:13 <Taaus> Heh.
21:02:27 <lament> the scale is defined by number of flats and sharps and one bit for majo/minor
21:02:38 <Taaus> Cute.
21:03:17 <lament> in a pointless way!
21:03:25 <Taaus> Quite.
21:03:49 <Taaus> You use quite a lot of exclamation marks, you know that?
21:04:39 <lament> I hope the signature is not actually used for anything!
21:05:11 <lament> of course lilypond is also affected by similar cuteness
21:06:44 <Taaus> Not quite.. Lilypond isn't _restricted_ to major/minor... It just has good definitions to start with... A _lot_ of music is either in the major or minor mode.
21:08:04 <lament> well, yes.
21:08:19 <lament> bah, all of music notation is extremely weird
21:08:28 <Taaus> Indeed. But it works ;)
21:08:31 <lament> also things like pianos
21:09:00 <lament> _-_-__-_-_-_
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21:11:11 <andreou> Back with a full stomach; screw vengeance.
21:11:53 <Taaus> Welcome back!
21:19:01 <Taaus> Hmm... The discussion of the new "Pragmatic" language has moved to another mailing list now. pragmatic_lang at Yahoo groups.
21:19:24 <andreou> Yeap, I'm long gone from the scene.
21:19:40 <Taaus> Eh?
21:22:48 <andreou> erm
21:22:48 <andreou> check
21:22:51 <andreou> something is strange here
21:23:08 <andreou> The #esoteric input box is right-aligned.
21:23:08 <Taaus> I think it's you. ;)
21:23:10 <andreou> What the hell.
21:23:14 <andreou> Ελληνικά.
21:23:30 <andreou> argh
21:23:32 <andreou> argh
21:23:34 <andreou> erm
21:23:36 <andreou> Strange
21:23:39 <Taaus> Heh.
21:23:39 <andreou> Two edit boxen.
21:26:20 <andreou> Check.
21:26:32 <Taaus> Roger.
21:26:45 <andreou> Bacon.
21:26:55 <Taaus> Francis.
21:33:28 <andreou> co, San.
21:34:24 <Taaus> ta Claus.
21:37:48 <andreou> Who was that von Klaussewitz (sp?) character?
21:38:14 <Taaus> I have no idea. :/
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22:10:29 <lament> Programming is boring.
22:11:02 <andreou> Boring is programming.
22:11:07 <andreou> Let me fix this weirdness the hard way.
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22:11:16 <andreou> Eh?
22:11:16 <andreou> OK.
22:11:27 <lament> Whatever you do can be done by a turing machine anyway, so why bother?
22:11:53 <lament> And whatever you do on a real computer can be done by SMETANA.
22:12:02 <Taaus> http://www.frap.net/kenn/scmnote/ <--- Look at this, lament :)
22:12:08 <andreou> lament, I think the correct thinking is "Whatever you do can be done by SOMEBODY ELSE".
22:12:29 <lament> s/can/should
22:12:40 <andreou> Yeah!
22:13:27 <lament> Taaus: ooh. Sick!@
22:16:46 <lament> hm
22:16:53 <lament> how about an esoteric music notation system?
22:17:27 <Taaus> I shudder at the thought.
22:17:35 <lament> The scale would be major bebop, and no way to change it!
22:18:05 <Taaus> Well, major and minor is the same thing... It's just a matter of perspective ;)=
22:18:07 <lament> And of course pythagorean tuning
22:18:18 <lament> Taaus: 'major bebop' is a scale.
22:18:28 <lament> It has nine notes iirc
22:18:37 <Taaus> Ah, I thought you just threw the bebop in there as an exclamation :)
22:19:06 <lament> major and minor aren't the same thing, either.
22:19:37 <Taaus> Yes they are.
22:19:41 <lament> No they're not
22:19:54 <Taaus> 'a' is identical to 'C'.
22:20:01 <lament> No
22:20:02 <Taaus> It's just a matter of where you start the scale.
22:20:07 <lament> Yes.
22:20:12 <lament> Which is important.
22:20:14 <lament> Very.
22:20:17 <Taaus> A matter of 'perspective', as I put it.
22:22:08 <lament> of course, 'major' and 'minor' are very stupid words in this context.
22:22:16 <lament> 'ionian' and 'aeolian' are much better
22:22:27 <Taaus> Agreed.
22:24:20 <lament> major bebop is ionian, with an added 5#
22:24:31 <Taaus> I see.
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