2003-07-01: 04:59:23 -!- lament has joined. 05:13:33 -!- lament has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:42 -!- lament has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:37:23 -!- dbc has joined. 11:11:52 I think there should be a BF team for the next ICFP contest. 11:12:09 haha 11:13:26 wouldn't that be insulting 11:13:27 I wonder if it's legal to submit a program that only theoretically works (As in the runtime is too great to actually find out) 11:13:31 How so? 11:13:40 bf is not exactly functional. 11:13:58 It doesn't have to be. 11:16:20 This programming contest is being conducted by ICFP, which implies a desire to promote functional languages. However, rather than debate the definition of a "functional programming language," we will allow submitted programs to be written in any language whatsoever. Mixing languages is entirely acceptable; perhaps you will write in O'Caml and Haskell, with a Tcl script to do the gluing. 11:16:32 heh. 11:16:42 That's from this year's contest, anyway... It may have been different earlier. 11:16:51 it also says 11:17:05 "This year you will run your entry on your own computer" 11:17:09 Yep. 11:17:12 which probably means they want results :( 11:17:21 Yep again. 11:17:38 But it's a moot point, anyway... We're a couple of days too late ;) 11:53:52 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 16:10:42 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 18:47:26 -!- lament has joined. 22:24:08 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 2003-07-02: 00:07:48 -!- lament has joined. 07:32:47 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 13:07:37 -!- andreou has joined. 13:29:51 -!- andreou has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:36:24 -!- andreou has joined. 13:36:28 werd. 13:53:59 -!- andreou has quit ("-mpe-"). 2003-07-03: 02:37:50 -!- lament has joined. 02:42:55 hi clog 07:34:29 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 15:20:40 -!- andreou has joined. 15:20:42 power 15:21:57 Taaus what is ICFP? 15:22:11 oh never mind. 15:22:25 Well, FP is... Functional Programming, I think. :P 15:23:10 IC is International Conference. Ah. 15:23:11 yeah 15:25:45 clog stop logging me. 15:25:53 stop god damn you, stop! 15:25:59 arrrgghhhhh 15:26:09 i think i want to kill this bot. 15:27:13 Heh. 15:27:26 Well... I'm not stopping you :P 15:28:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o andreou. 15:28:01 ph33r 15:28:10 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 15:28:12 :D 15:51:59 -!- andreou has quit ("math"). 17:45:52 -!- andreou has joined. 17:45:54 werd. 18:15:20 -!- andreou has quit ("-"). 18:45:40 -!- andreou has joined. 18:45:43 werd. 19:28:08 -!- andreou has quit ("break the tv"). 2003-07-04: 00:40:00 -!- andreou has joined. 00:40:14 werd. 01:27:02 mpe 01:27:04 -!- andreou has quit ("mpe"). 02:03:49 -!- lament has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:26:33 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 09:53:20 -!- andreou has joined. 09:53:21 power. 09:53:49 Fight the power! 09:54:05 can't fight the power. 09:54:22 ... You could try... :) 09:54:36 and you could be assimilated in the end. 09:55:34 Yes, well... At least I'll have had fun fighting the power. 09:56:04 maybe, and the swat will have fun swatting your head ;p . 09:56:10 of course, there is an alternative: 09:56:14 power... to the people! 09:56:26 *bang* *bang* revolutionary dead 09:56:38 The people are too irresponsible to be allowed such power. 09:57:09 the people are irresponsible because they have not being assigned some responsibility (which comes with power). 09:57:21 I sense circular logic. 09:57:32 I sense lack of logick. 09:58:12 logick this: do you prefer to have power-less people under the boot of a fascist government, with no power to express their own mind? (yeah i'm a stinkin' verbalist) 09:58:36 I honestly don't care either way. :) 09:58:40 or do you prefer giving the people the power to prove that they really don't need the hierarchical structure supporting and supported by... 09:58:41 whot? 09:58:48 you are a hippy? 09:59:01 I'm a musician. Is that close enough? 09:59:16 not really. 09:59:25 Hmm... I have long hair. Does that count? 09:59:27 (30 days, 10 minutes uptime... yey) 09:59:37 women have long hair too. some of them were on the gestapo. 09:59:48 do you shave? 09:59:51 Wait... 09:59:57 When did I tell you I wasn't a woman? 10:00:03 baby... 10:00:06 errm i mean, are you? 10:00:16 Well, no... But it'd be fun if I were. 10:00:30 I only shave when I can't avoid it. I really hate shaving. 10:01:14 do me a favour; tell me what the hell is the file in ftp://BitRot.ee.teiath.gr/pub/incoming/ 10:01:17 (it's just one file) 10:02:03 Phoe-, uh, Mozilla Firebird claims /pub/incoming doesn't exist. 10:02:46 ftp://BitRot.ee.teiath.gr/incoming/ 10:03:13 Well, whatever it is, it won't let me have a look at it. 10:03:18 erm 10:03:55 erm i'll have to fix the ftpd umask. try again. 10:06:57 Okay. Hmm... I have absolutely no clue as to what kind of file that is. 10:08:23 heh 10:08:27 it's weird, you know. 10:08:41 Well, where did you get it? 10:08:50 it was uploaded to me. 10:09:08 the weird thing is that the anon ftp is open for 3-4 days know, unpublished. 10:09:16 yet somebody found it. 10:09:28 Oooh... It's probably military secrets, then... Which probably means I have five minutes before the pigs get here and sieze all my equipment ;) 10:09:45 given that the same thing had occured about last year when I also had ftpd open, somebody's scanning for writable ftpds. 10:09:56 they are not pigs, they are our friends and cater to our national security. 10:10:07 (did they stop /SNOOPing?) 10:10:30 *cough* e-c-h-e-l-o-n *cough* 10:10:57 ECHELON?! 10:11:10 ARGH, no! Now you've said it! 10:11:23 Now they'll find this conversation. 10:11:38 i kill bush echelon love saddam you pigs die 10:12:09 We're going down. 10:12:36 heh in a few hours my first /var/log/monthly.out will be created. i am soooooo happy :) . 10:12:43 no we are not. 10:12:50 we'll set them up the bomb. 10:13:03 Hehe. 10:14:58 i have to set the toilet up the bomb but someone is locking it. 10:15:21 rm -f /var/lock/toilet 10:15:23 ok. 10:25:00 -!- andreou has quit ("-"). 13:37:05 -!- dbc has joined. 13:38:17 Just saw the log. Have you still got the file from andreou's ftp? I'm curious now, and I can't download it myself for some reason. 13:39:16 I still have it. Just a sec. 13:44:33 I /msg'd you the link. Did you get it? 13:44:39 Ah. Yes. 13:45:05 Ah, good :) 13:46:06 Got the file. Thanks. 13:46:19 You're welcome. Now figure out what it is :P 13:46:32 :) 14:46:41 -!- andre-u has joined. 14:46:45 power. 14:46:47 -!- andre-u has changed nick to andreou. 14:46:58 power to the people, Taaus. 14:47:23 People to the power. 14:48:03 heeh power already has people. 14:48:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +oo andreou dbc. 14:48:22 You'll be happy to learn that one of our best esoterians is working on your mystical file ;) 14:50:57 -!- andreou has set topic: make your time. 14:55:05 -!- andre-u has joined. 14:56:03 -!- andre-u has quit (Client Quit). 14:56:07 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:56:12 -!- andre-u has joined. 14:56:20 -!- andre-u has changed nick to andreou. 15:04:53 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:14:16 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:14:19 -!- andre-u has joined. 15:18:10 -!- andre-u has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:18:27 -!- andre-u has joined. 15:18:31 -!- andre-u has changed nick to andreou. 16:20:06 -!- andreou has quit. 2003-07-05: 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:58:58 -!- andreou has joined. 12:59:06 hey 13:43:57 -!- dbc has joined. 13:44:06 This is not my beautiful house! 13:44:13 This is not my beautiful wife! 13:44:27 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 13:44:33 of course i am not your wife. 14:07:47 -!- andreou has quit ("beat"). 15:13:29 -!- andreou has joined. 15:13:36 power. 15:19:03 -!- andreou has changed nick to aAn2. 16:04:57 -!- aAn2 has quit. 16:05:26 -!- aAn2 has joined. 16:05:39 -!- aAn2 has quit (Client Quit). 17:50:25 -!- andreou has joined. 17:50:27 power. 18:22:16 -!- andreou has quit ("-"). 20:05:21 -!- andreou has joined. 20:05:24 powe. 20:05:26 sorta :) 20:09:07 Poweh! 20:09:25 Powah to de ppl. 22:51:21 -!- andreou has quit ("-"). 2003-07-06: 00:17:13 -!- andreou has joined. 00:17:18 death. 00:20:24 To the people! 00:20:27 Wait... 00:24:03 gotcha 00:26:36 Damn! 00:26:49 yes, damnation to the people! 00:26:54 (and then death) 00:27:24 And then tacos. 00:27:42 no my stomach isn't realy nice.. the cannabis pizza got to me. 00:27:47 maybe soup. 00:28:08 being an evil overl0rd doesn't necessarily mean that you're immune to these little things. 00:28:43 <-- Evil Overlord 00:29:01 How evil of you. 00:47:14 bye 00:47:20 -!- andreou has quit ("sleep"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:01:23 -!- andreou has joined. 12:01:28 Whatever to the people :) . 12:01:49 -!- andreou has quit (Client Quit). 14:11:06 -!- Taaus has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:07 -!- Taaus has joined. 14:11:07 -!- leguin.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 14:30:18 -!- Andreou has joined. 14:36:39 -!- Andreou has quit ("crap"). 16:14:57 -!- Andreou has joined. 16:16:13 Ok rules RPN! 16:17:27 RPN? then /j #nop3 :))))) 16:18:04 Heh. 17:11:20 -!- Andreou has quit ("airp0rt"). 20:32:27 -!- andreou has joined. 20:32:29 power. 21:03:39 -!- andreou has quit ("airpor"). 2003-07-07: 01:46:02 -!- andreou has joined. 01:46:15 -!- andreou has quit (Client Quit). 01:46:52 -!- andreou has joined. 04:42:36 -!- andreou has quit. 05:49:48 -!- lament has joined. 07:24:49 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:25:18 -!- lament has joined. 07:36:12 -!- Andreou has joined. 07:47:54 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:02:18 -!- Andreou has quit. 18:50:59 -!- split` has joined. 18:55:25 -!- split` has left (?). 20:21:33 -!- Aardappel has joined. 21:31:31 -!- Andreou has joined. 21:31:34 deadly power. 22:27:42 -!- Andreou has quit ("alcohol and death"). 2003-07-08: 03:31:50 -!- lament has joined. 07:26:40 I wrote 'hello world' in zcode! 07:27:13 ~/zmachine/mine > hexdump hand.z5 07:27:13 0000000 0005 0000 4000 4000 6964 0000 0000 4000 07:27:13 0000010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1400 0000 0000 07:27:13 0000020 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 07:27:13 0000030 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 4f57 544f 07:27:29 0000040 11b2 46aa 0334 5e94 1629 9c85 baa5 0a00 07:31:40 beautiful! elegant! 07:31:48 Full of quiet confidence! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:37 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 18:03:16 -!- Aardappel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:31:57 -!- knoppix has joined. 19:32:08 hello\ 19:33:56 -!- knoppix has quit (Client Quit). 2003-07-09: 00:12:07 -!- Navigator has joined. 00:12:12 werd. 00:12:41 Word up, y'all. 00:25:09 -!- Navigator has changed nick to Andreou. 00:26:19 Andreou in the hizouse. 02:11:43 -!- lament has joined. 03:00:06 lament: You consider HQ9+ to be a programming language, then? 03:00:20 Taaus: Yes. 03:00:24 Ok. 03:00:32 Taaus: Also my programming language I sent to the esolang a year ago 03:00:46 that converted every line of input from into "Hello, !" 03:01:05 I believe nobody objected there :) 03:01:54 How about a language that has the implementation 'int main(void) { return 0; }'? A true NULL language. :) 03:03:14 (In C, naturally) 03:03:23 hehe. 03:03:30 yes, that works too. 03:03:31 tur-in-complete. 03:03:43 Of course, it has no programs. 03:04:03 I rather like the language with just one instruction, "nop" 03:04:05 programming language is defined as? 03:04:06 Well, that's just dandy... That means pretty much everything is a programming language... 03:04:21 It's special because it doesn't need an implementation 03:04:22 lament no, if the interpreter takes no input, there can be no programs, not even NOP programs. 03:04:25 its programs run themselves 03:04:37 Andreou: yes, i'm talking of a different language. 03:05:11 Andreou: the best definition of 'programming language' i know of is 'a formal method for definition of a class of machines' 03:05:19 You've successfully made a definition that's useless. Have you considered working on a standards committee? 03:05:24 where a machine is something that can change state, e.g. operate 03:05:32 taaus: it is not useless 03:05:41 hahahahah 03:05:53 Oh? 03:06:16 Taaus: well, perhaps it is, so give me a better one! 03:06:24 Teehee. 03:06:31 I'm perfectly content with this one, though 03:08:39 If you really insist, I can say "non-empty class of machines" instead 03:10:48 Well, I still don't think it's a good definition... It certainly isn't intuitive... The problem is that HTML "programs" are constant, in a sense. They'll always produce the same output when run on a specific interpreter. 03:11:13 i thought that would be a good thing :) 03:11:29 Have you looked at _code? 03:11:36 Or, hell, postscript? 03:11:46 Sure. 03:11:55 would you say they're not programming languages? 03:12:02 they're turing complete. 03:12:06 they don't have input. 03:12:08 The thing is... _All_ HTML programs are constant. That's not so for Postscript. 03:12:30 well, it's true for _code, which is turing complete 03:12:41 I'm not familiar with _code. Got a link? 03:12:42 and it's true for Zot where input is a part of the program 03:12:57 and for Iota and Jot that don't have input 03:13:29 sorry, no link for _code 03:14:05 but here's 99 bottles of beer in it 03:14:09 [1green bottle][2hanging on the wall.\n][3`#`$# 1$, 2''][4`Q`Z`q`z3(Q)(Z)3(Q 03:14:09 )(Z)And if one 1 should accidentally fall,\nThere\'d be 3(q)(z)\n''''][6`A`a 03:14:09 `s`Q`B`b`z4(A)(s)(b)(z)Q(B)(b)(z)'''''''][+(s)(6)]6(Ten)(ten)+(Nine)(nine)+( 03:14:09 Eight)(eight)+(Seven)(seven)+(Six)(six)+(Five)(five)+(Four)(four)+(Three)(th 03:14:09 ree)+(Two)(two)+(One)(one)()(`X`Y`Z''')()(no)(s) 03:14:46 It's a language that was intended to replace geek code 03:14:55 Ah, yes... It's all coming back now. 03:18:09 There must be some way to define the difference between _code and what you might call the "cat" programming language. (I.e. the language that just returns whatever input it's given) 03:18:50 well, _code is turing-complete. 03:19:24 but that seems to be irrelevant. 03:19:30 If you cut HTML does it not bleed? 03:19:41 Lets try. 03:20:59 * Taaus briefly wonders if the inclusion of and tags makes a difference 03:24:33 Remind me again why TC isn't a good measure of whether or not a language is a programming language or not. 03:25:08 Because of the arbitrarily big memory requirement for turing-completeness. 03:25:22 Languages don't have memory requirements... 03:25:27 Brainfuck does! 03:25:37 Then Brainfuck isn't a language. 03:25:50 A programming language, that is. 03:25:55 It's just a glorified markup language, then. 03:26:14 haha. 03:26:36 Even though it's capable of an arbitrarily large subset of turing-complete programs 03:26:54 (the brainfuck family) 03:27:03 * Taaus smiles and nods 03:27:22 Serves it right! 03:27:44 There're probably other languages that have memory requirements. 03:27:54 Assemblies. 03:28:35 Possibly. That doesn't change anything, though. 03:29:20 anyway, any definition of programming languages which excludes brainfuck is morally wrong. 03:29:57 Not really... Brainfuck with limited memory can't execute all the programs a Turing Machine can. 03:30:09 Brainfuck _without_ limited memory is a programming language. No contest there. 03:31:13 hm, we could call limited-memory languages "computers" :) 03:31:37 Hehe, sure. :) 03:32:10 That would confuse the hell out of everybody. 03:32:29 Yay esoteric. 03:32:35 Well... That's the whole point of existence, innit? 03:33:44 And BEST! 03:33:53 It can even calculate prime numbers 03:33:56 -!- Taaus has set topic: This just in: HTML solves the halting problem! Millions rejoice!. 03:33:59 but is not turing complete :( 03:34:18 And malbolge! 03:34:23 And hq9+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 03:34:35 This reminds me of Floop, Bloop and Gloop from GEB. 03:35:43 I haven't read that. 03:35:46 Should I? 03:35:56 I'd recommend it. 03:36:14 hm. 03:36:28 He defines three different languages (with the aforementioned names) one of them isn't TC, but it is able to emulate anything one of the other TC languages can do. 03:37:19 I think Bloop has only got constant for-loops, whereas Floop has while-loops. If you put in a large enough constant, then Bloop is nearly as powerful as Floop. 03:37:54 GEB sounds like something i really have to read, which is why I don't. 03:38:02 Heh. 03:38:39 -!- Andreou has quit ("Adios."). 03:43:31 Perhaps I should read it anyway. 03:43:46 I bet it wouldn't hurt ;) 03:44:42 I probably know everything it says. Which is bad because I should've just read it instead of all that other stuff! 03:54:56 -!- dbc has joined. 03:56:15 dbc: see log! 03:56:59 I'm reading it. 04:02:03 hehe, I like this /. comment about the complexity of computer jargon 04:02:12 You're absolutely right. Instead of saying "megahertz," we should say "three billion individual operations every second." Instead of "MP3 file," we should say "pirated Metallica songs." Instead of "Bluetooth," we should say "magic." 04:02:44 I want to approach the definition problem another way, to make it match the common usage of the phrase "programming language" better. 04:03:07 I want to start out by saying a programming language is a language you can use to tell a computer to do things... 04:04:05 that's the part where I beat you with a stick. 04:04:16 But do go on :) 04:05:29 And add a few refinements. Specifically, I would say you can use it to tell a computer to do several different possible things; this rules out null languages and those that always do exactly the same thing. Your language that outputs "Hello, !" is right in the borderline. 04:06:44 And also, a strong connotation of "program" is that you can give the computer a reasonably long list of things to do, and after you finish giving it the list it will go ahead and do all of them, rather than you having to tell it things one at a time. 04:07:14 Any definition which involves "computer" is evil, though. 04:08:03 Otherwise, your definition is pretty much the same as mine. 04:08:27 Okay. I think the answer there is to broaden the definition of "computer", not to stop using it. 04:09:16 is turing machine a computer? 04:09:41 And I wouldn't broaden it too far. Stack machines are fine, but a four-function calculator isn't. Again, I'm trying to match common usage, which doesn't speak of "programming" anything very different from a computer... 04:09:54 A Turing machine is a computer, yes. 04:10:26 That is, a real Turing machine. 04:10:49 I think you just reduced the problem to an equally complex related problem. 04:11:07 Sorta like compiling Brainfuck to Ook. 04:11:10 What, defining "computer"? 04:11:28 Yes. 04:11:54 Well, that's to be expected. There isn't going to be a neat mathematical formulation that matches common usage. 04:12:47 By common usage, lots of things count as "programming languages" that aren't Turing-complete even if you neglect the unlimitedspace requirement. 04:12:55 But common usage is evil. 04:13:19 In common usage, somebody says "HTML is a programming language, i learned it at school", and the response is "FUCK YOU!" *ban* 04:13:23 If common usage is evil, then common words are evil. Rather than try to make a fresh definition of the phrase "programming language", just stop using it. 04:14:25 Which is indeed a good policy, for lots of words, but I don't have enough aversion to "programming language" to stop using it myself. 04:14:42 I don't either. But definitions are nice. 04:14:54 Besides, people actually _argue_ about things like this. 04:15:03 (without looking for a definition) 04:15:22 Right. 04:15:57 Well, it's not often that people argue about programming languages. 04:16:03 ("good" is one word that I keep meaning to stop using for similar reasons, but it's a difficult habit to break.) 04:16:47 But arguments about scripting languages, OO, etc 04:16:52 are very common. 04:17:07 dbc: and "is"! 04:17:19 Right. Plus, is a program that bundles an interpreter with source code a "real" compiler. 04:17:26 &c. 04:24:15 The way to get precision, if we want it, is to stick with concepts derived from mathematics, and which have not been firmly co-opted for nontechnical uses. That's my view. 04:32:26 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 07:25:03 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 13:49:14 -!- andreou has joined. 13:49:20 total power. 13:49:52 Total people. 13:50:51 We have come to the conclusion that you are a radical anarchist. Our satellites will track you down, our operatives will kill you and we will laugh as you make it into the statistics. 13:51:07 More spam email, eh? 13:51:08 (boo) 13:51:11 ehe 13:51:21 you can't believe how much. i can't stand it. 13:51:41 Well, don't get mad, get even. 13:51:43 what's more, it's real-time spam. i am logged in to the mail account and i receive spam. 13:51:46 nah 13:51:59 how could i get even? 13:52:02 Okay, don't get mad, get odd. 13:52:12 read the spam? 13:52:32 i had a friend that read spam. terrible things happened to him. 13:52:37 Poor sod. 13:53:13 stupid bastard were my words... read spam, who did he think he were, arnold blackanger? 13:53:40 Well... Some people think they can handle it... 13:54:44 wait until the spam gene is found and the first bio-weapon engineered. *then* we will have some fun... >:-D 13:55:01 I shudder at the thought. 13:55:43 i laugh uncontrollably at the thought. 13:55:51 You MADMAN! 13:57:30 i am not a madman, i am a visionary. 13:58:09 What's that you said? Missionary? 13:58:44 ehehhehe 13:59:15 I'm an ASS member -- Anti-Spam Sect. 14:00:37 How nice. 14:04:46 i'm gone. 14:04:49 -!- andreou has quit ("gone."). 22:45:08 -!- Aardappel has joined. 2003-07-10: 00:39:00 -!- Aardappel has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:39:45 -!- andreou-_ has joined. 00:39:49 math power. 00:39:58 heh 00:43:51 -!- andreou-_ has quit ("changing servers"). 00:44:01 -!- andreou-_ has joined. 00:44:38 -!- andreou-_ has quit (Client Quit). 02:35:28 -!- lament has joined. 06:13:17 ooh 06:13:44 ~/zmachine/mine > od -t x1 HELLO.z5 06:13:44 0000000 05 5e 0a ff 00 40 00 12 64 69 00 00 00 00 00 40 06:13:44 0000020 2a 2a b2 b5 c0 8c 00 22 00 00 00 10 0a 3e 35 35 06:13:44 0000040 2b 22 64 6c 72 6f 77 20 69 68 22 3e 3a 23 2c 5f 06:13:44 0000060 40 0a 5e 3c 00 00 00 00 b2 72 97 45 25 9c a5 ba 06:13:47 0000100 06:13:54 It's a program that prints 'hi world', followed by a newline 06:13:59 in both z-machine and befunge 06:14:42 it can't be any smaller because the z-machine header is 64 bytes, and i have to have at least 64. 06:14:48 And I don't have any more :) 06:18:06 http://lament.hypermart.net/HELLO.z5 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:34:42 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 11:49:40 -!- Aardappel has joined. 12:57:56 -!- Aardappel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:53:29 -!- andreou has joined. 21:54:28 -!- andreou has quit (Client Quit). 21:56:15 -!- andreou has joined. 22:41:36 -!- andreou has quit ("Adios."). 2003-07-11: 02:21:37 -!- lament has joined. 03:26:49 -!- lament has set topic: http://cyberspace.org/~lament/abuse.html. 03:26:54 yay. 04:08:53 -!- lament has changed nick to lame-AFK. 04:48:20 -!- lame-AFK has changed nick to lament. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:46:15 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 16:41:31 -!- andreou has joined. 16:41:35 -!- andreou has left (?). 2003-07-12: 00:46:55 -!- andreou has joined. 00:47:31 power and shit... 00:48:44 -!- andreou has left (?). 02:31:47 -!- lament has joined. 03:32:05 hi clog 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:44 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 18:59:41 -!- lament has joined. 20:26:32 -!- Taaus has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:26:47 -!- Taaus has joined. 20:26:47 -!- leguin.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 20:34:29 -!- Taaus_ has joined. 20:35:25 -!- Taaus has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:44:11 -!- Taaus_ has changed nick to Taaus. 2003-07-13: 00:00:59 -!- fizzie has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:22:59 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 18:41:08 -!- lament has joined. 19:27:34 lament: Your homepage fall down go boom :/ 19:31:39 no! 19:32:13 aargh. 19:32:55 What was on the page? 19:33:48 the description of how my z-code program works. 19:34:00 Ahh. 19:36:46 Hopefully cyberspace.org goes back up. 19:36:54 Hopefully. 19:37:15 It's a nice, evil place. 19:37:52 Really? It wasn't when I looked at it... Of course, that was probably... A year ago, or so. 19:46:17 well 19:46:25 it's more evil than nice. 19:47:53 Hehe. Neat :) 19:48:34 still, it's a big, active BBS 19:48:55 A rare thing nowadays 19:49:05 And a unix shell at the same time! 19:49:11 Indeed. 19:49:43 Have you played Scott Adams' adventure games? 19:50:59 Scott Adams? I don't think so, no... 2003-07-14: 03:30:11 -!- platovt has joined. 04:27:40 -!- platovt has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:43:18 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 11:54:47 -!- Taaus has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:55:01 -!- Taaus has joined. 2003-07-15: 02:02:45 -!- lament has joined. 06:02:30 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 06:15:28 -!- lament has joined. 07:19:49 -!- Taaus has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:19:59 -!- Taaus has joined. 07:21:08 -!- lament has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:21:17 -!- lament has joined. 07:23:00 -!- lament has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:23:00 -!- Taaus has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:23:00 -!- fizzie has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:23:10 -!- lament has joined. 07:23:10 -!- Taaus has joined. 07:23:10 -!- fizzie has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:51:45 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 21:22:12 -!- Aardappel has joined. 2003-07-16: 02:30:07 -!- lament has joined. 02:56:28 -!- Etaoin has joined. 07:42:39 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 15:48:11 -!- asdsa has joined. 15:48:18 -!- asdsa has left (?). 15:52:24 -!- asdsa has joined. 15:52:29 haha 15:52:36 i read about the log 15:52:40 of this channel 15:52:47 i already like it ! 15:52:49 =-) 15:52:52 Hehe. 15:56:52 so the endless question is what is the official esoteric language ?! 15:57:05 There isn't one. 15:57:19 But Brainf*** is a strong contender. 15:57:29 from what i read from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.04.19 it's not that easy ! 15:59:48 True. 17:27:48 hehe 17:27:51 Taaus 17:27:59 do you really code in brainfuck ? 17:28:00 That's me. 17:28:04 Nope. 17:28:11 Not these days, anyway. 17:28:15 =) 17:28:45 do you know anyone really coding in brainfuck 17:29:01 Yes. 17:29:07 dbc, for instance. 17:29:07 wow 17:29:24 the guy with the fractal ?! 17:29:36 I'm not sure. Probably. 17:29:45 let me find the logs =) 17:29:54 Hehe. 17:29:55 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.01.21 17:29:58 hehe 17:30:36 Ah, yes. That's him. 17:31:25 i did it in brainfuck ?? 17:32:09 Dunno. 17:32:56 it would be insane 17:33:01 to do it in bf =) 17:33:32 I think the triangle fractal was made using a BF program. 17:34:10 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.05.20 17:34:39 yeah ! 17:34:44 i saw some source 17:35:00 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf 17:35:19 Yep. That's the one. 21:17:11 -!- Aardappel has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:39:53 -!- andreou has joined. 21:40:08 lotsa people 21:40:09 came here to congratulate me on my new lapdog? 21:41:17 HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA 21:41:25 lament has to be institutionalized :) 22:07:20 -!- clog has joined. 22:07:20 -!- clog has joined. 23:21:10 -!- clog has joined. 23:21:10 -!- clog has joined. 23:22:30 -!- clog has joined. 23:22:30 -!- clog has joined. 23:47:33 -!- fizzie has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:48:23 -!- fizzie has joined. 2003-07-17: 00:22:55 -!- fizzie has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:23:53 -!- fizzie has joined. 00:24:31 ah, irc-stability is not very impressive tonight. 00:35:25 -!- platovt has joined. 00:56:16 -!- clog has joined. 00:56:16 -!- clog has joined. 03:19:43 -!- lament has joined. 03:33:20 -!- fizzie has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:33:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 03:44:14 -!- andreou has joined. 03:44:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o andreou. 03:44:41 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +ooo fizzie lament Taaus. 05:01:45 -!- platovt has quit ("Client Exiting"). 05:07:51 yay so many people 05:08:19 speaking of esoteric stuff, i wrote a language (called SADISM) which compiles to the Scott Adams adventure game platform. 05:09:41 the compiler is the ugliest piece of code i ever wrote. 05:10:24 I shall never write compilers without clearly separating code into lexer/parser/compiler, i swear 05:10:34 unless i feel like it 05:10:54 you are enumerating the rules that you br0ke? :) 05:13:24 indeed. 05:13:38 The language has significant whitespace and statements are terminated by a blank line. 06:13:48 -!- andreou has changed nick to andreou`sleep. 06:48:39 -!- lament has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:58:12 -!- lament has joined. 06:58:12 -!- orwell.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o lament. 07:13:49 -!- lament has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:17:15 -!- lament has joined. 07:17:15 -!- orwell.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o lament. 07:17:23 -!- lament has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:17:37 -!- lament has joined. 07:17:37 -!- orwell.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o lament. 07:21:34 -!- lament has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:21:43 -!- lament has joined. 07:21:43 -!- orwell.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o lament. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:59 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 16:26:26 -!- andreou`sleep has changed nick to andreou. 16:46:47 Good morning. 16:48:23 good indeed, although it's 18:47. 16:48:34 but it was good since i slept through it :) 16:48:49 the telephone bill will come a *slight* bit 'upgraded', but what the heck... 16:59:01 Hehe. 16:59:11 It's the price you have to pay for being esoteric ;) 16:59:47 yeap 20:11:51 * andreou bye 20:12:29 -!- andreou has quit ("Adios."). 23:24:59 -!- Taaus has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:24:59 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:24:59 -!- Taaus has joined. 23:25:30 -!- fizzie has joined. 23:25:59 my name server seems to have died. 23:29:46 -!- Etaoin has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2003-07-18: 00:00:37 -!- andreou has joined. 02:46:19 -!- lament has joined. 02:58:57 hi clog 03:01:14 clog: where do you keep prettified logs? 03:01:22 clog: help 03:01:26 bah 03:02:21 read 'petrified' :) 03:03:04 andreou: do you know where they're kept? :( 03:04:18 [01:59:39] -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussion are avialable at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 03:04:25 yes 03:04:30 but those aren't prettified 03:04:39 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:04:44 why you say that? ascii is pretty. 03:05:41 ascii is a horrible waste of bits 03:06:42 everybody should use puffman encoding 03:08:04 [01:59:39] -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussion are avialable at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 03:08:10 sorry 03:08:15 not exactly my point. 03:08:20 http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_800824.html 03:11:38 Hello, ADimitris. Nice to see you see me :-) . 03:12:35 hmmmmmmmmmm 03:13:12 there should be some nice way to get logs of recent conversation 03:13:24 like !last -10? 03:13:30 yes 03:13:44 and that should NOT include massive quits/joins 03:13:45 and !markstart Conversation theme 03:13:52 and !markend Conversation theme 03:14:01 the log directory is full of 1-KB files 03:14:01 and !fetchmark conversation theme 03:14:10 some of those are genuinely empty 03:14:26 yes 03:14:28 some may hide treasures 03:14:50 of various degrees of brain-damage 03:15:23 it's good to have *this* kind of treasury hidden. 03:15:38 maybe we should /part /join a few times to hide them even better... 03:15:44 haha 03:15:59 it's already hidden 03:16:03 we're in #esoteric 03:16:10 and not somewhere in #debian 03:17:18 heh 03:17:54 we could set the channel +s, so nobody ever finds out about us!!! 03:17:56 oh wait 03:18:33 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o andreou. 03:19:00 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +s. 03:19:03 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +l 42. 03:20:40 well, right now there's esoteric conversation going on in #scheme 03:20:56 ok 03:34:59 hm 03:35:01 "Her bottom was named the sexiest behind in Hollywood in a poll of more than 2,000 film fans earlier this year." 03:35:16 How wery Bowdlerian. 03:35:38 schemers are fun :) 03:35:41 yeah. 03:38:48 -!- hcf has joined. 03:39:03 lament: read the top of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ 03:39:14 -!- hcf has left (?). 03:40:29 thanks 03:40:59 that was nice :) 03:41:04 hello hcf :) 03:41:13 http://tunes.org/~coreyr/ 03:45:20 i want to write a nice, elegant programming language which compiles to the z-machine 03:45:35 unfortunately that's impossible. 03:45:36 damn. 05:11:45 -!- andreou has quit ("Adios."). 05:27:54 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 05:48:36 -!- lament has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:02:54 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 12:51:55 -!- andreou has joined. 13:40:28 -!- shoo has joined. 13:40:38 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(ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:00:26 -!- andreou has quit ("scheel"). 16:22:37 -!- asdsa has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:31 -!- Aardappel has joined. 21:57:31 -!- andreou has joined. 23:13:48 Power to the people! Except for the ones responsible for Terminator 3.. God that movie sucked. 23:15:17 you saw it? 23:15:36 Yeah. Just got back, pretty much. 23:15:45 (wb) 23:15:50 (thanks ;) 23:16:01 (heh) 23:16:17 (You're not going all lispy on me, are you?) 23:16:53 (schemey,but still the answer is no) 23:17:11 (Well, Scheme is part of the lisp family ;) 23:17:37 I'm trying to port TinyScheme to my GP32. It's fun. :D 23:17:39 (the black sheep :) ) 23:17:46 gp32? 23:17:58 GamePark 32. A Korean handheld gaming thingy. 23:18:05 ah ok 23:18:16 320x240 screen, ARM9 CPU. Uses SmartMedia cards. 23:19:10 arm9? that's sweet. 23:19:27 i' thinking of writing a forth-like vm for my c55 when i finally get it. 23:19:36 Very. It can be "overclocked" to 133MHz through software alone :) 23:19:50 Forth. Cool. 2003-07-25: 01:21:41 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o andreou. 01:22:04 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +b *!*@bespin.org. 01:22:11 -!- clog has quit (ended). 03:20:36 -!- clog has joined. 03:20:36 -!- clog has joined. 03:20:42 now try it 03:20:45 [03:21:18] * andreou sets mode: +b *!*@bespin.org 03:20:48 yeah. 03:20:53 * hcf crosses his digits 03:20:54 -!- clog has quit (ended). 03:20:58 -!- clog has joined. 03:20:58 -!- clog has joined. 03:21:05 ok 03:21:05 thanks 03:21:16 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +b *!*@bespin.org. 03:21:22 -!- clog has quit (ended). 03:23:59 -!- clog has joined. 03:23:59 -!- clog has joined. 03:24:10 now try it 03:25:04 -!- andreou has set channel mode: +b clog!*@*. 03:25:08 -!- clog has quit (ended). 03:25:23 -!- clog has joined. 03:25:23 -!- clog has joined. 03:25:36 great 03:26:40 ok, all set now 03:26:56 yeap, thanks. 03:27:01 np 03:27:10 bye 03:27:12 -!- hcf has left (?). 04:16:51 -!- lament has joined. 05:00:30 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 05:10:15 -!- lament has joined. 06:08:09 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 06:19:53 -!- andreou has quit ("Adios."). 06:46:23 -!- lament has joined. 07:40:15 -!- andreou`work has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:37 WELL, I GUESS THIS DOESN?T REA 08:00:37 LLY QUALIFY AS ESOTERIC, BUT A 08:00:37 NYWAY. 08:00:37 IT?S A ?-BIT ENCODING. 08:00:37 UNLIKE BAUDOT AND SIMILAR ENCO 08:00:39 DINGS, IT ACTUALLY USES ?-BITS 08:00:41 . 08:00:44 THE COMPLETE CHARACTER SET INC 08:00:47 LUDES THE ALPHABET ?UPPERCASE 08:00:49 ONLY?, THE COMMA, THE PERIOD, 08:00:51 THE DASH, THE EXCLAMATION MARK 08:00:54 , THE QUESTION MARK AND THE SP 08:00:57 ACE. 08:00:59 THE QUESTION MARK IS ALSO USED 08:01:02 INSTEAD OF CHARACTERS WHICH C 08:01:04 OULDN?T BE OTHERWISE CONVERTED 08:01:07 . 08:01:09 SURE, IT?S SILLY, BUT IT?S CU 08:01:12 TE! HEH. 08:02:00 I WILL TRY A ?-BIT ENCODING NE 08:02:04 XT. 08:07:41 argh 08:07:47 wish sirc had scrollback ;p 08:08:48 hm 08:09:01 A 4-bit encoding would have the following alphabet: 08:09:08 "etaoihnsrdluwgc " 08:10:03 or rather, in alphabetical order, "acdeghilnorstuw " 08:10:38 i guess the w can be replaced with ? to indicate missing characters 08:12:46 this is ?hat a ?our??it encoding loo?s li?e? 08:13:25 i guess it?s actuall? so?e?hat reada?le? heh? ?ourteen letters are enough ?or ?ost ?ur?oses?? 08:13:46 heheh 08:14:01 as a neat side e??ect? the ?essage loo?s li?e ?loor engra?ings ?ro? nethac? ??? 08:15:05 And of course, instant 2x compression 08:15:09 two chars in one byte! 08:16:03 I GUESS IT LOO?S ?ETTER IN ALL U??ERCASE? 08:16:58 Heh. 08:17:04 And some people use silliness like Unicode. 08:17:13 It's appaling. 08:18:05 It's like using C# instead of Brainfuck. 08:18:34 lament, please don't take it personally... 08:18:47 Why not? 08:18:50 are you taking drugs? the kind of drugs that make one see colors :) 08:18:53 and shapes 08:19:05 i mean, if you are everything can be explained :) 08:19:09 like that abuse.html 08:19:11 Oh, I thought you were suggesting I shouldn't take people using Unicode personally. 08:19:25 there, see? :) 08:19:42 unicode is ok as long as i don't have to use it. 08:20:03 I prefer my four-bit encoding. 08:20:18 wow, i've been two days away and about 60 files have changed in the CVS... 08:20:48 touch * 08:21:00 cvs commit -m "Major changes throughout the project..." 08:21:03 i am not convenient with this alteration. i will log into the cvsroot server and change them back. 08:21:07 eheh 08:21:22 nah but most coders have the bad habbit of aliasing 'commit' to 'cvs commit -m "fix"' 08:21:25 nasty bastards 08:21:34 they're not coders 08:21:45 heh 08:21:46 they are programmatic source file production simpletons 08:21:59 i mean, what is the point of just adding fix 08:22:00 Yes! They can be easily replaced by Befunge programs. 08:22:15 au contraire, my commit message are better 08:22:46 here is a random example: 08:22:48 That is not death 08:22:48 Which can eternal lie 08:22:48 And with strange aeons 08:22:48 Even death may die. 08:22:48 Dear friends, stop this 'fix' and 'empty commit message' madness! 08:22:49 (The quote is from H. P. Lovecraft; that guy was nearly as destructed 08:22:51 as Bunuel and Dali.) 08:22:53 Have phun. I think the code is much more readable now, but it is entirely 08:22:55 possible that I missed a closing bracket here or there 8^) . 08:23:05 and guess what... i had in fact missed a closing bracket somewhere :) . 08:23:57 heh 08:24:05 that's a big message. 08:24:10 (there have been better commit messages) 08:24:26 i am thinking of educating these poor foul souls. i'll commit with poetic messages 08:24:39 what project are you working on? 08:25:27 From revisioin 1.1 until revision 1.686 inclusive the commit message is 'fix'. GOD DAMN. 08:25:43 they are orking at a PHP/MySQL Hotel program 08:26:42 the company is a start-up, so everyone does everything they know. they only know how to code, but i also administer the servers. 08:26:54 it's a fun escape when you've tired of reading malformed source code. 08:29:06 CS degrees at teiath are given out way too easily 08:29:24 heh that coffee was strong; i'm being vitriolic :) 08:30:07 yay coffee 08:30:20 it's interesting how different drugs make you "more awake" in different ways 08:30:39 unfortunately i haven't had the chance to experiment ;p 08:30:56 I haven't either, except for coffee, chocolate and weed 08:31:50 coffee stimulates me, but I wouldn't say it makes me more awake. usually when I am tired and drink coffee I just loose the ability to sleep, not the sleepiness :) 08:33:41 i wonder why bynari.net compressed the installer of the insightconnector when the compression rate is just 3% 08:34:06 for security reasons!! 08:35:32 s/security/obscure/ 08:43:07 Hm, speaking of weed 08:43:08 http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/0/0e/Marahuana_warning.png 08:43:34 lessee 08:44:14 Murder! Insanity! Death! 08:44:35 That poster was used in the thirties. 08:47:15 first cow-orker came 08:48:12 gotta get to werk a little bit :) 08:48:13 see you later 08:48:22 -!- andreou`work has quit ("werk werk werk, all werk and no play..."). 08:49:05 I'll go to sleep. Bye all. 08:49:10 heh 08:49:15 I'm getting a bit paranoid. 08:49:21 Talking to people who're not really here. 08:49:38 But yeah, bye all you silly log readers. 08:49:41 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 17:22:25 -!- andreou has joined. 17:27:51 Hello people, hello power, hello bot, hello world, hello universe. Die, cleaning lady. 18:11:20 -!- andreou has quit ("-"). 18:30:35 -!- lament has joined. 18:31:06 -!- lament has quit (Client Quit). 18:31:25 -!- lament has joined. 18:32:08 -!- lament has quit (Client Quit). 21:44:10 -!- Aardappel has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2003-07-26: 02:24:42 -!- lament has joined. 03:23:45 -!- andreou has joined. 03:27:08 Power to the peephole! 03:27:23 of course, http://www.sysadminday.com 03:27:33 power to the sysadmin, to hell with the people. 03:28:02 haha 03:28:07 Brilliant. 03:28:07 sysadmins are JERKS 03:28:13 HATE HATE SYSADMINS 03:28:36 HATE HATE SYSAD@$%!$%!#$!@#$@#NO CARRIER 03:28:37 :) 03:28:43 heh 03:30:26 * Taaus goes back to mutilating TinyScheme 03:31:19 tinyscheme! 03:31:29 Indeed. 03:32:37 tiny. scheme. 03:32:48 Redundantly tiny scheme! 03:33:07 tinyscheme? isn't this that greek whacko's implementation? 03:33:26 'Greek whacko'? Isn't that a bit... Pleonasmic? 03:34:37 But to answer your question, 'yes'. 03:34:39 no, there are two types of greeks 03:34:45 Oh? 03:34:58 The kafroi (plural of kafros, pronounced kAh-free) 03:35:11 and the mourloi (mOO-rleeh) 03:35:19 i am a mourlos kafros :) 03:35:23 How about the hoi polloi? :) 03:35:46 oi polloi (the many) are of no interest discussing. just simpletons. 03:35:56 Hehe :) 03:36:24 there is an increasing number of simpletons turning kafroi, tho 03:36:42 * Taaus smiles and nods, smiles and nods 03:37:22 eh 03:37:26 you know about greeks, taaus? 03:37:31 Not at all. 03:37:38 Hence my fervent smiling and nodding. 03:37:45 heh ok :)) 03:38:19 I don't expect other people to know about Danes, either ;) 03:38:50 danes are not as interesting as greeks (profound display of lack of knowledge about danes) 03:39:19 Teehee. You're probably right ;) 03:45:25 http://sysadminday.safeweb.be/Photos1/pMark_Sewage_P6060002.JPG 03:45:46 Oh boy. 03:46:23 'xactly. 03:47:01 http://sysadminday.safeweb.be/Photos1/pMaxim_Fire_Rack.jpg 03:47:15 anyway have a look at allof them at /Photo1.htm 03:47:25 Those switches really _do_ get hot, you know... ;P 03:47:44 yeah 03:48:27 i'm hoping one day i'll turn a rack full of cisco hardware into a rack full of cisco meltware. 03:49:34 A worthwhile goal, to be sure. 04:04:37 i'm going on vacation in a week and need a good book suggestion. not technical. 04:04:54 Hmm... How about some PKD novels? :) 04:05:12 Or something by Hofstadter. 04:06:44 maybe pkd 04:06:58 which one b hofstadter? i've (read) GEB:EGB and Fluid Concepts 04:07:12 FCACA is not a vacation/relaxation book. 04:07:40 Hmm... Metamagical Themas is good. So is The Mind's I. 04:07:53 (The latter is co-edited with Daniel C. Dennett) 04:08:10 yeah i remember... 04:08:18 any suggestioins for pkd? never read any 04:09:03 heh 04:09:11 i'm struggling through GEB 04:09:18 I can't force myself to read it 04:09:31 Hmm... Not sure, really. I thoroughly enjoyed his short stories. There are five books with PKD short stories. 04:09:38 lament: Heathen! 04:14:06 andreou: There's also a single book containing 3 of his early novels. 'The Man Who Japed', 'Dr. Futurity' and 'Vulcan's Hammer'. Especially Dr. Futurity was enjoyable. 04:14:49 andreou: Just get the cyberiad. 04:14:54 Taaus: Yes. 04:15:06 hm 04:15:12 ok 04:15:12 That sounds like Lem. I still need to read some of his stuff :/ 04:15:17 i'll see how fast i can order. 04:15:55 cyberiad is the second best book on anything for the layman. 04:16:25 Mmmkay. 04:16:26 what is it about? 04:17:16 It's a bunch of fairy tales. 04:21:34 I'm going to bed. Good night, all. 04:22:15 beh 04:23:25 "I liken starting one's computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts is 04:23:26 Ken Pier, Xerox PARC 04:23:46 Heh... Looking at the Unix Hater's Handbook? 04:23:54 yeaah 04:24:15 there is a friend of mine 04:24:21 novice at the unixen 04:24:33 who only recently started learning and working with unix 04:24:49 fortunately he is now solaris installation engineer at the 2004 olympics athens data center ;p 04:25:02 he's learning perl and he's happy he watches his knowledge well change 04:25:32 well, if i direct him to the UHH he'll start shouting at me ``what kind of the worst lamer has written that piece of trinary shit'' 04:25:52 in ten years, he'll be cursing solaris, in twenty years he'll be writing the second editioin of UHH 04:26:01 isn't exquisite what unix can do to a man? 04:26:06 Quite. 04:35:27 -!- dbc has joined. 04:35:37 heh ey daniel 04:35:40 Hello. 04:35:46 (cruel world) 04:36:53 Taaus you got any pdf versions of uhh? 04:37:16 http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/uhh-download.html 04:38:04 So no, it's not a Microsoft conspiracy. :) 04:38:21 That's what they _claim_. 04:38:34 Haven't been working any more on that mystery file; instead I've been shortening dbfi.b because this guy wants to write an article on it. 04:39:43 heh 04:41:17 ugh.pdf? 04:42:08 yeah 04:44:14 Unix-Gator's Handbook? 04:44:45 heh 04:44:49 <-- navigator 04:46:24 Right. 06:01:08 -!- andreou has quit ("andreou"). 07:09:30 wow, today's log is big. 07:09:39 All they yesterday's stuff is on there :) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:09:47 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 09:12:16 "One of the benefits of leaving regulation of this matter to the people rather than to the courts is that the people, unlike judges, need not carry things to their logical conclusion." 12:14:24 -!- andreou has joined. 12:20:35 erm 12:20:43 anyone has halflife/counterstrike serial or keygen? 12:20:46 pleeeaaazeeee ;p 12:22:13 -!- andreou has quit. 13:59:10 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 15:01:56 -!- andreou has joined. 15:02:09 Power to the poplar! 15:02:32 Power to my argiles 15:02:38 Power and fire. 15:20:02 -!- andreou has quit. 20:03:30 -!- lament has joined. 21:33:49 Power and the grovy! 21:44:00 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:45:18 -!- Taaus has joined. 21:45:18 -!- niven.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 22:15:06 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 23:22:47 -!- lament has joined. 2003-07-27: 02:09:16 -!- andreou has joined. 02:09:56 Gravy made out of people! 02:10:20 I think we are starting to get a people-power-complex obsession-kind-of-thingie 02:10:34 Is that a bad thing? 02:11:00 We are psychopathic products of the system; it is what we are supposed to be(come of). 02:11:12 * Taaus nods solemnly 02:49:29 -!- andreou has quit. 04:39:41 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:22:12 -!- dbc has joined. 11:26:39 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 17:07:00 -!- Aardappel has joined. 21:52:25 -!- Taaus has quit ("Remote closed the connection"). 21:53:49 -!- Taaus has joined. 21:58:36 -!- Aardappel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2003-07-28: 01:42:09 -!- andreou has joined. 01:46:50 Electronic Popple. 01:48:24 Tekke people. 01:48:55 Very much so. How are you tonight, andreou? :) 01:49:13 good. just woke up after N hours of dreamful sleep. 01:49:38 Ah... I bet you wish it was N+1, eh? 01:51:09 at this point, N+2,5 actually. 01:51:21 Ah. 01:51:33 anyway, what better time to read up on tempest than now that the agents are sleeping? 01:52:03 The agents never sleep. 01:52:28 The agents *think* that they never sleep. 01:53:23 ahem... you're UTC+... how much? 1? 01:53:24 Well... Maybe they do sleep, but if they do it in shifts, it doesn't make any difference to us. 01:53:42 CET. GMT+1. :) 01:56:09 i have to tune my baglamas 01:56:31 heh: http://molasar.blackmagic.com/french/ 01:56:35 Mmmkay. 01:57:02 yeah so chivas regal is actually french? god... 01:57:30 Jerry Springer (talk show) 01:57:31 Ehm. 01:59:28 mp3.com :) 01:59:44 hey, sofitel is the hotel at Athens International Airport 02:04:01 * Taaus wanders off to munch on some French Emmenthaler cheese. 02:04:39 it's not French Emmenthaler, it's Freedom Emmenthaler. 02:04:58 Haha! 02:05:43 heh 02:15:09 (prepare for paste of a short bio of a fun guy) 02:15:15 (ready or not here it comes) 02:15:18 For my personal history, over the years I've competed in and taught nightclub type dancing, surfed professionally and owned a surfboard company, competed in and coached both wrestling and tennis, become a real rocket scientist and a computer nerd, gotten five college degrees, acquired a teaching credential, hob-nobbed with many famous people, written several books (most are technical but one is on surfing and one is on Sombo - a form of martial arts), be 02:16:52 It got cut off after 'martial arts' 02:17:08 ), been listed in Who's Who in both Industry and Science, ran for public office, served in office in various large organizations, been in two movies, and never made any big money. 02:17:17 yeah, thought i heard a 'beep'-like sound. 02:17:31 lol... Never made any big money. 02:17:41 that's the whole point :) 02:18:01 of course, he doesn't say if he made a real lot of small money :) . 02:18:16 True, true. "I have a small fortune in pennies" 02:53:33 I really hate waiting for the queue to empty. Doesn't the stinkin' fserv understand that *my* dcc request is more important? 02:54:24 Tell it to the owner. And use lots of foul langauge. I'm sure he'll understand. 03:01:08 argh that fserv bot was borken... 03:22:02 What were you trying to obtain? 03:22:21 got it from another bo 03:22:22 bot 03:22:26 the art of information warfare 03:22:43 Sounds... Like a handbook for spammers :) 03:23:11 no, not the art of toxic binary waste handling. 03:23:21 Oh, okay. 05:31:31 it's worth every second i spent downloading it. 07:27:42 -!- dbc has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:04:12 -!- andreou has quit. 09:28:24 -!- dbc1 has joined. 09:28:25 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:35:30 -!- andreou has joined. 10:46:23 -!- dbc1 has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 11:11:03 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:11:23 -!- Navigat-r has joined. 12:18:22 -!- Navigat-r has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:05:21 -!- andreou has joined. 13:33:14 -!- andreou has quit. 20:03:26 -!- andreou has joined. 21:31:01 -!- andreou has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 2003-07-29: 05:44:02 -!- andreou has joined. 06:14:35 -!- dbc has joined. 06:16:32 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +oo andreou dbc. 06:16:32 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 06:53:44 -!- andreou has quit. 06:53:56 -!- andreou has joined. 07:19:48 -!- andreou has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:23:41 -!- andreou has joined. 11:21:54 * andreou c u 11:22:21 -!- andreou has quit. 11:43:15 -!- andreou has joined. 12:11:50 -!- andreou has quit. 12:22:34 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 13:30:02 -!- andreou has joined. 13:33:03 Moo. 13:33:12 Mu. 13:33:25 That too. 13:33:51 Hell, that one rhymed as well! 13:35:23 Hehe. 14:40:20 -!- andreou has quit. 18:10:48 -!- lament has joined. 18:17:10 Heya lament. 18:18:06 hi 18:18:15 where's everybody again 18:18:28 Dunno. Eating peanuts, probably. 18:18:30 this channel is hopeless! We should just merge with #scheme 18:18:39 they're talking more about esoteric stuff than we do :( 18:18:49 Bah. 18:19:07 andreou and I do our best. ;) 18:19:14 * lament reads the logs 18:19:41 So... Any thoughts on Loell? 18:30:21 Um 18:30:35 Did I understand correctly that there can only be one prototype? 18:31:24 Dunno... Why? 18:31:37 It seems a very stupid limitation 18:31:42 Unless i'm missing something obvious 18:32:48 It's been a while since I looked at it last, but I imagine you could change it (in Loell code) to support more than one prototype. 18:33:35 hm. 18:34:05 expr < exprs > 18:34:09 Creates a new object, using expr as prototype (stored in the proto property). The current scope is stored in the scope property. If expr is ommited, Any is used. exprs is evaluated in the current scope, but with current set the newly created object. 18:34:25 So apparently the 'proto' and 'scope' properties are hard-wired 18:35:26 No argument there. 18:36:50 Hmm... If it had something akin to doesNotUnderstand:, then it might be possible. 18:39:47 The whole idea of first-class scopes is wonderful, though. 18:39:55 Indeed. 18:39:55 Slate has that. 18:40:04 Have you looked at slate? 18:40:10 Well, I guess python has it too 18:40:18 Only briefly. 18:40:19 but not really! 18:40:28 water talks about it a lot in #squeak ;) 18:40:46 It's neat. 18:41:11 So I've heard :) 18:41:33 you can send messages to the "context object" 18:41:41 I think ^ is such a message 18:42:20 as are local variables... but i might be wrong 18:42:55 There's a lot of talk on the "Pragmatic Programmers" mailing list these days... A bunch of people are going to try to develop a "pragmatic" language (called Pragmatic. Duh) 18:43:20 what's that? 18:43:24 I think it'll turn into a big ball of mud... If anything at all. 18:43:27 I thought C was pragmatic 18:43:33 or fortran or something 18:43:57 Heh... Well... That's the problem... People have different views of what 'pragmatic' entails ;) 18:45:45 one moment 18:45:46 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 19:23:43 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:23:52 -!- Taaus has joined. 19:23:52 -!- niven.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 22:14:19 -!- lament has joined. 22:14:33 ok, so it wasn't a moment 22:18:54 hm 22:19:11 Are there any hierarchitectitiptitoploftical languages? 22:20:02 Maybe. 22:20:12 It really depends on what the heck you're talking about :) 22:20:34 I dunno. It's from finnegans wake. 22:20:52 Hmm... No longer using #python on Efnet? :) 22:21:04 :( 22:21:40 Wait... pyn is gone? 22:22:08 Why, Satan, why!?! Why did you take one of your own?!? 22:24:00 He ran away with exarkun. 22:24:05 They're having a vacation together. 22:24:24 Oh, right... I knew that. I was there when he asked if someone else could host pyn. ' 22:24:27 D'oh. 22:24:35 And you offered to host it ;) 22:24:36 Somebody else couldn't :( 22:24:44 I didn't! 22:25:01 Oh? Well, exarkun _wanted_ you to host it, ne? 22:25:02 Not only I'm using my parents' computer 22:25:12 But you couldn't... Etc. etc. 22:25:20 We're also moving and i don't even have internet at home 22:25:25 Ah. 22:25:30 Which so far seems to be a good thing! 22:25:35 Quite a nasty situation, I imagine. 22:25:41 No. 22:26:05 Oh? I guess some people like moving... *shrug* 22:26:07 When I have internet, I waste all my time chatting with idiots on IRC 22:26:09 er 22:26:11 i mean... 22:27:08 We (my family) moved about seven times in the last ten years 22:27:20 well, maybe fifteen years 22:27:33 Wow. 22:27:48 But now we finally _bought_ a house 22:28:36 I've moved... Twice. In my entire lifetime. 22:29:24 see. 22:29:27 therefore,! 22:29:48 I don't understand loell 22:29:55 What does this do? 22:29:58 Foo bar = 42 22:30:09 sorry 22:30:23 Foo.bar = 42 22:30:47 Sets bar to 42 in the expression Foo? 22:31:19 but there is no expression foo! 22:31:38 Your point being? 22:32:35 Foo.bar = 42; Foo // returns failure 22:32:40 I know. 22:33:00 It's a... Quirk ;) 22:33:06 I don't understand. 22:33:37 I would understand if it returned some object. 22:33:40 There is no Foo... But there is a Foo.bar... 22:33:59 What would you expect Foo to be? 22:34:03 But that's *wrong* 22:35:15 I would expect Foo.bar = 42 to cause an error 22:35:29 The really fun part is when you do 'Foo.bar = 42;Foo = 3;Foo' ... It returns failure. 22:35:41 Hah 22:35:48 Did I mention that Loell was quirky? 22:35:57 er 22:36:00 it returns 3 for me 22:36:28 Ah, this is probably due to Quirk #2... 22:36:49 'quirk' is a good name for a programming language. 22:36:53 There's something very bizarre about the interpreter. It doesn't reset the environment between compilations, or something. 22:37:25 reload the page :) 22:37:32 although, i don't believe you. 22:38:09 Well, maybe he's fixed it... But it definitely carried over _something_ when I tried it originally.. 22:38:21 hm. 22:38:29 Running the exact same piece of code twice gave different results. 22:38:34 Anyway, assignment to nonexistent objects is wrong. 22:38:47 Cry me a river. 22:39:01 OH 22:39:03 I GOT IT! 22:39:03 :P 22:39:10 What? 22:39:11 It makes perfect sense 22:39:18 there's no Foo 22:39:25 so Foo.bar is actually failure.bar 22:39:30 Foo.bar = 3 22:39:31 failure.bar = 5 22:39:31 Foo.bar 22:39:36 This returns 5 :) 22:39:36 Hah. Interesting. 22:39:51 ok it makes sense then. 22:39:57 Although I'd rather have an exception. 22:41:05 Bah. Why clutter the language with exceptions? :) 22:41:50 when you can simply extensively test every expression! 22:42:13 Precisely. 22:42:24 Don't forget which channel this is... 22:42:28 still, this is vile and Perlish. 22:42:38 Esoteric is one thing, Perlish is another 22:42:44 Or maybe not. 22:44:51 also it seems i can't assign to failure 22:45:00 Yeah. 22:45:49 failure = 5 22:45:53 failure == 5 22:46:03 This returns 5, which is supposed to be success 22:46:14 Xyzzy 22:46:17 This returns failure. 22:46:59 By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to python 22:47:27 Great. 22:48:29 the only problem would be weird scoping 22:48:40 but the scoping is not that weird. 22:49:01 Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :) 22:49:25 no! don't. 22:49:44 Why not? 22:49:57 I'm not gonna write it. 22:49:59 Why not? 22:50:13 Meh. Gotta go. 22:50:16 Talk to you later. 22:50:21 Bye. 23:36:34 * Taaus returns 23:36:41 no! 23:36:54 I'm afraid so. 23:38:47 So, anyway... You were saying? 23:39:20 No i wasn't. 23:39:33 Except that I'm not going to write loell 23:39:36 Why not? 23:39:41 Why yes? 23:39:48 In python! 23:40:29 Because it'd be a great learning experience. Now tell me why not. 23:40:59 Because it'd be a great learning experience! 23:41:04 Actually, because it wouldn't. 23:41:13 Oh? 23:41:27 Compiling it to python? Of course not. 23:41:35 Python already can do everything loell does. 23:41:49 Ehm... Who said anything about compiling to Python? I certainly didn't. 23:41:57 I did! 23:42:20 14:37 < lament> By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to 23:42:22 python 23:42:28 14:39 <@Taaus> Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :) 23:43:23 Writing an interpreter for it in C would be fun, I guess. 23:43:23 I love it when people say 1) It's trivial, but 2) I won't do it. 23:43:32 because it's not trivial! 23:43:36 the boring parts are not trivial 23:43:38 like writing the parser 23:43:51 Bah. Writing a parser is trivial. 23:44:00 never! 23:44:07 Absolutes are boring. 23:44:22 always! 23:44:26 You suck. 23:44:30 never! 23:44:35 Now read this conversation in reverse. 23:44:43 noooo 23:44:49 ok 23:44:52 <@Taaus> Now read this conversation in reverse. 23:44:55 < lament> never! 23:45:17 I'm curious... What _do_ you do with your time? Besides talking about things you won't do? 23:45:37 You're right. 23:46:28 Heh. 23:46:46 Well, I'm supposed to be writing the z-machine assembler 23:46:50 I probably will, eventually 23:47:06 Once that's done, I might write some cool language that would compile to it. 23:47:29 Freak! I'll look forward to it. Is that permitted? 23:47:40 yes. 23:48:04 Who needs Parrot when there's the Z-machine? 23:48:26 (also, who needs Parrot when there's no Z-machine) 23:48:41 Good point. 23:56:07 Tiny objecty languages are always fun, but they always lack something. 23:56:13 Usually something which Python doesn't lack. 23:57:06 I know what you mean. Significant whitespace. 23:57:25 !!!! 23:57:27 No. 23:57:31 ;) 23:57:46 s/No/Not really 23:57:56 Io, for example, is not _that_ bad. 23:58:19 Io is... Too young :/ 23:58:25 If it had a generally accepted module system, it would be usable. 23:58:43 but it doesn't, and it's not. 23:59:18 Well... The same can be said of Scheme, can't it? 23:59:23 Yes. 23:59:40 Hmm... Pity :/ 2003-07-30: 00:00:25 although in case of Io, "generally accepted" would be "accepted by both Io users" 00:00:31 s/be/mean 00:00:35 Ouch. 00:01:08 lol... This is from the pragprog mailing list... About the new "Pragmatic" language: 00:01:14 > Just remember that as yet there are no functions, no methods, no calling 00:01:14 > conventions, nothing. All that is built on the block concept. 00:01:15         I agree and that is all well and fine but we *MUST* map it onto a 1-d tape 00:01:18 of bits and primative state transforms at some point. 00:01:25 They're going down. 00:02:24 what _is_ pragmatic programming? 00:02:35 Programming that gets the job done. 00:03:16 http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/ 00:03:59 ruby! 00:04:06 Shut yo' mouth! 00:04:50 i can't 00:04:52 The Pragmatic Programmers are big proponents of Ruby, yeah. 00:04:52 it's ruby! 00:04:58 Ruby annoys me. 00:05:16 grrrr 00:05:22 You can think of Ruby as a mix of Perl and Smalltalk, or look at it as Python with full object-orientation. 00:05:33 o.k... 00:06:16 I'm familiar with Ruby. The Smalltalk bits I like... The Perl bits give me the willies. 00:06:25 yes, but that quote is still WRONG 00:06:58 the python bit 00:07:04 Oh. I didn't know it was a quote... For one it didn't have quote marks... 00:07:12 Yeah, I was puzzled by that. 00:07:54 If i send them an email asking to change that, will they? 00:08:11 Ask them to explain it first :) 00:08:18 heh 00:08:25 good idea. 00:09:01 BRB... Mmmm. Tea. 00:10:15 Damn... The dishwasher is still running... No tea for the next 20 minutes :( 00:12:10 i sent them an email. 00:12:23 But i think they just wrote that because it's a trendy thing to write. 00:12:50 Yeah, probably. 00:13:10 Also the whole website is just too buzzwordy. 00:13:30 I think it's aimed at managers... No such thing as 'too buzzwordy' in that case ;) 00:13:38 "Andy specializes in blending tried-and-true techniques with leading-edge technologies, creating novel -- but practical -- solutions." 00:13:51 Admittedly, that is rather bad. 00:14:44 at least they wrote leading, not bleeding. 00:15:13 I don't think 'bleeding-edge' appeals to managers. 00:15:35 Is the mailing list also aimed at managers? 00:16:13 Nah. It's a bunch of people who claim to be pragmatic programmers. And me. 00:16:37 Hopefully you make fun of them! 00:16:49 Not really my style. 00:18:13 Actually 00:18:20 I thought pragmatic programmers were called software engineers. 00:18:38 Maybe they are. I wouldn't know... 00:18:49 http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/cgi-local/pragprog?NamingTheProgram <--- Heh... 00:19:24 The RequestedFeatures page is a hoot too. 00:19:44 "The material in this Wiki is Copyright (c) 2001 the Pragmatic Programmers, LLC, and may well end up in our next book. By posting to this Wiki, you agree that we can use your ideas. Please sign what you enter, and we'll do our best to attribute what you say." 00:19:53 I don't like those people at all. 00:20:15 lol. Never noticed that. 00:20:41 Scheme 00:20:41 * Too hard to learn 00:20:41 * Too much like assembly language (Scheme is the assembly of the lambda calculus) 00:20:45 * Not enough industry support 00:20:47 * Rotten FFI 00:20:49 (Reasons why it isn't Pragmatic) 00:20:53 haha 00:21:06 I really like reason #3... That's really a language flaw... Mmm... Yep. 00:21:33 that's not a language flaw 00:21:38 just a reason why it's not pragmatic 00:21:46 I prefer the reason 1 00:21:49 Hehe. 00:22:16 Well, I bet there's more industry support for Scheme than for Pragmatic. 00:22:19 Of course it's too hard to learn - it does'nt use C syntax 00:22:29 C 00:22:29 * Not sufficiently abstract 00:22:29 * Too easy to shoot yourself in the foot 00:22:37 That's true. 00:22:42 Yep. 00:23:24 Hmm... I need to try CHICKEN. 00:24:37 Careful with what you post on the list. It's probably also copyright (c) Them 00:24:48 Have you seen the list of requested features? 00:25:06 no 00:25:16 # Proper Tail Recursion 00:25:16 # Lisp-like Macros 00:25:16 I can guess! 00:25:17 # Simple syntax 00:25:22 Er, I can't 00:25:24 And first-class functions. 00:25:27 ! 00:25:50 # Industry support 00:26:19 :D 00:28:36 yay, attacking #python people 00:28:53 Yah... People who are spreading FUD!! 00:47:45 Well, that was fun. 00:59:17 yes. bye. 00:59:18 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 05:35:01 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:36:10 -!- Taaus has joined. 05:36:10 -!- niven.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 05:36:22 -!- Taaus has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:36:49 -!- Taaus has joined. 05:36:49 -!- niven.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o Taaus. 07:24:06 -!- andreou has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:49 -!- andreou has quit. 19:05:10 -!- lament has joined. 19:51:24 hm 19:51:47 the esoteric programming language list on purists.org has been renamed "stupid programming languages" 19:52:11 Also they write Brainfork instead of Brainfuck 19:52:28 and never even hint that that's not its true name 19:52:44 :( 20:11:30 er wait 20:11:35 brainfuck was renamed?!? 20:17:52 Never! 20:18:19 Brainfork is a lame name. 20:18:22 Indeed. 20:18:28 It isn't supposed to fork your brain. 20:18:33 Indeed. 20:18:42 bah, stupid purists.org 20:18:48 "stupid languages" hah! 20:18:55 Hmm... I thought purists.org was kraml.at, or something? 20:19:05 well, yes. 20:19:11 i can't memorize the new url. 20:19:34 Fair 'nuff. 20:22:44 * Taaus prods lament with a named let. 20:24:50 -!- andreou has joined. 20:24:59 andreou! Defender of the ppl! 20:25:40 Sleepy defender of the people, for that matter. 20:26:11 Well, if you're sleepy, you should... Wait for it... Sleep! 20:26:27 no! 20:26:32 You must'n't! 20:26:40 What is your opinion on purists.org renaming Brainfuck to Brainfork? 20:26:53 What? 20:26:56 WHAT? 20:27:20 That was pretty much the reaction I expected. 20:28:10 And I expect they'll be using {} for [], () for <> and, what, _= for -+? 20:29:07 Well... It could be worse... They could have renamed it to Ook. (A language I consider to be totally superfluous) 20:29:57 Well, from my point of view, they can rename it to DisneyDrum too. It will still be a great Brainfucking experience, no matter how it's called. 20:30:05 Taaus: bah, ook is ok 20:30:10 i mean, ok is ook 20:30:13 You can call it a trip, a paper, an LSD shot, it's still a high :-) . 20:30:17 Taaus: The coolest language ever is e! 20:30:20 or whatever it's called 20:30:25 e? 20:30:27 What does Ook give me that Brainfuck doesn't? 20:30:32 (Besides RSI) 20:30:37 hrh 20:30:41 erm 20:30:42 heh :) 20:30:46 andreou: the one that guy on esolang proposed a year ago 20:30:47 or more 20:30:56 Oooh... I remember that language. 20:31:04 which uses exclamation marks for everything, but otherwise is just brainfuck.... without loops 20:31:06 Got pointers? 20:31:08 I preferred the name 'straightfuck' that someone suggested ;) 20:31:28 Why did the name change issue came up *at all*? 20:31:53 Taaus: i remember people decided that "brain" is too obscene 20:31:56 The Brainfuck->Brainfork one? 20:32:00 Taaus: so they wanted to rename the language to "fuck" 20:32:08 The Brainfuck->* one. 20:32:20 andreou: because purists.org DID change the name 20:32:22 Well, apparently purists.org is a bunch of prudes. 20:32:46 andreou: they also renamed their esoteric programming languages list to "stupid programming languages" 20:32:52 No, they didn't. They *think* they have, but they haven't. 20:33:29 So, purists.org should be removed from the Obfuscated Languages list at dmoz. :-) 20:33:32 that's like calling fugue a stupid genre, because they're hard to write! 20:33:39 !!! 20:33:42 !!!!!!! 20:33:46 Ook! OOk! 20:33:48 I love writing fugues :) 20:34:00 Taaus: how many have you written? 20:34:09 Two or three. 20:34:18 I've written more inventions. 20:34:29 you're mad 20:34:31 (It was part of the first year of my music studies) 20:34:32 are they good? 20:34:42 The quality... Varies :P 20:34:47 fugues in first year! 20:35:08 I wish i studied music. 20:35:11 lament then it's ok, it's *they* who's mad, not taaus. 20:35:44 lament: It doesn't exactly help matter that I'm a complete Bach nut. Me and some other music students even started a Bach lodge. 20:36:20 a bach lodge! 20:36:32 why are you a music student? 20:36:41 Because music rocks? 20:36:57 i thought you were a CS student or something like that. 20:37:19 Nah. I'm not good at that stuff.. (j/k) 20:37:31 Actually, I'm switching to Mathematics in a few months. 20:37:41 sick 20:37:57 :) 20:38:22 speaking of bach, do you have richter's first WTC recording? 20:39:01 I don't think so, no. 20:39:11 Is it good? :) 20:39:14 Food is here. 20:39:31 Taaus: you have to ask? 20:39:33 Bon appetit, andreou! 20:39:38 what kind of bach nut _are_ you? :) 20:39:54 I'm the kind of Bach nut that thinks Glenn Gould is a demigod ;) 20:40:08 And Koopman on the organ. *drool* 20:40:37 -!- andreou has quit. 20:42:02 ew, gould! 20:42:34 the humming bach-playing machine! 20:42:40 Indeed. 20:43:04 Do you have any idea how difficult it is to play Bach and hum at the same time? 20:43:34 do you have any idea how difficult it is to liston to Bach and to humming at the same time? 20:43:37 *listen 20:43:59 Yes. It really isn't an issue. 20:44:10 yes it is! 20:44:25 Oh well... De gustibus no est disputandum, I guess. 20:44:34 anyway, listen to the first prelude from WTC in gould and richter recordings 20:45:12 I'm tired of the WTC 1 prelude in C. 20:45:28 Yes, but it's good for comparison. 20:45:33 I disagree. 20:45:34 Gould plays it without legato. 20:45:44 It sounds like crap. 20:45:50 In your opinion. 20:45:53 Yes! 20:46:19 But at least I've listened to both versions! 20:46:32 Good thing your opinion doesn't matter to me :) 20:47:23 gould is too much of an 'entertainer'. All those show-off photos, humming, etc 20:48:10 * Taaus shrugs 20:48:11 anyway, why am i arguing, i haven't even written any fugues! 20:48:16 I should write one. 20:48:18 In Befunge. 20:48:29 A Befugue in C. 20:48:33 Good luck. 20:49:19 Grrr... The DrScheme editor annoys me. 20:49:34 don't use it. 20:49:46 For both applicable values of it! 20:50:08 What do you propose I use instead? Bigloo? 20:50:34 maybe even bigloo! 20:51:23 hm, befunge doesn't have threads 20:51:34 certainly doesn't have voices 20:52:24 Just make it output Lilypond code ;) 20:52:44 hm, that would be neat 20:53:06 except i couldn't install lilypond last time i tried 20:53:22 I actually started working on an online collaborative fugue-writing system for our Bach-lodge homepage... But I never got very far :( 20:53:38 fugue-writing system? 20:53:49 that sounds evil 20:53:49 Yes. Using Lilypond. 20:53:56 that sounds like something gould would enjoy! 20:54:06 lol 20:56:38 outputting raw MIDI would be neat. 21:02:04 wow, MIDI has major and minor scales. How quaint. 21:02:13 Heh. 21:02:27 the scale is defined by number of flats and sharps and one bit for majo/minor 21:02:38 Cute. 21:03:17 in a pointless way! 21:03:25 Quite. 21:03:49 You use quite a lot of exclamation marks, you know that? 21:04:39 I hope the signature is not actually used for anything! 21:05:11 of course lilypond is also affected by similar cuteness 21:06:44 Not quite.. Lilypond isn't _restricted_ to major/minor... It just has good definitions to start with... A _lot_ of music is either in the major or minor mode. 21:08:04 well, yes. 21:08:19 bah, all of music notation is extremely weird 21:08:28 Indeed. But it works ;) 21:08:31 also things like pianos 21:09:00 _-_-__-_-_-_ 21:10:30 -!- andreou has joined. 21:10:56 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 21:11:11 Back with a full stomach; screw vengeance. 21:11:53 Welcome back! 21:19:01 Hmm... The discussion of the new "Pragmatic" language has moved to another mailing list now. pragmatic_lang at Yahoo groups. 21:19:24 Yeap, I'm long gone from the scene. 21:19:40 Eh? 21:22:48 erm 21:22:48 check 21:22:51 something is strange here 21:23:08 The #esoteric input box is right-aligned. 21:23:08 I think it's you. ;) 21:23:10 What the hell. 21:23:14 ÅëëçíéêÜ. 21:23:30 argh 21:23:32 argh 21:23:34 erm 21:23:36 Strange 21:23:39 Heh. 21:23:39 Two edit boxen. 21:26:20 Check. 21:26:32 Roger. 21:26:45 Bacon. 21:26:55 Francis. 21:33:28 co, San. 21:34:24 ta Claus. 21:37:48 Who was that von Klaussewitz (sp?) character? 21:38:14 I have no idea. :/ 22:06:32 -!- lament has joined. 22:10:29 Programming is boring. 22:11:02 Boring is programming. 22:11:07 Let me fix this weirdness the hard way. 22:11:08 -!- andreou has left (?). 22:11:12 -!- andreou has joined. 22:11:16 Eh? 22:11:16 OK. 22:11:27 Whatever you do can be done by a turing machine anyway, so why bother? 22:11:53 And whatever you do on a real computer can be done by SMETANA. 22:12:02 http://www.frap.net/kenn/scmnote/ <--- Look at this, lament :) 22:12:08 lament, I think the correct thinking is "Whatever you do can be done by SOMEBODY ELSE". 22:12:29 s/can/should 22:12:40 Yeah! 22:13:27 Taaus: ooh. Sick!@ 22:16:46 hm 22:16:53 how about an esoteric music notation system? 22:17:27 I shudder at the thought. 22:17:35 The scale would be major bebop, and no way to change it! 22:18:05 Well, major and minor is the same thing... It's just a matter of perspective ;)= 22:18:07 And of course pythagorean tuning 22:18:18 Taaus: 'major bebop' is a scale. 22:18:28 It has nine notes iirc 22:18:37 Ah, I thought you just threw the bebop in there as an exclamation :) 22:19:06 major and minor aren't the same thing, either. 22:19:37 Yes they are. 22:19:41 No they're not 22:19:54 'a' is identical to 'C'. 22:20:01 No 22:20:02 It's just a matter of where you start the scale. 22:20:07 Yes. 22:20:12 Which is important. 22:20:14 Very. 22:20:17 A matter of 'perspective', as I put it. 22:22:08 of course, 'major' and 'minor' are very stupid words in this context. 22:22:16 'ionian' and 'aeolian' are much better 22:22:27 Agreed. 22:24:20 major bebop is ionian, with an added 5# 22:24:31 I see. 22:25:35 -!- andreou has quit. 22:29:26 * Taaus wanders off 23:37:45 -!- andreou has joined. 2003-07-31: 00:22:11 is music turing-complete? 00:26:36 -!- lament has set topic: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html. 00:29:01 Ah, I remember that. 00:34:05 have you played with it? 00:34:27 Nope. 00:43:23 Oooh. The Quack Scheme mode for Emacs automatically turns 'lambda' into a small lambda symbol :D 00:43:53 http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/screenshot.png 00:44:40 How --ahem-- useful... :) 00:44:49 Hehe. 00:44:53 Well... I thought it was cute ;) 00:54:20 very. 00:54:29 Indeed. 01:01:05 eta looks neat too. 01:01:09 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 01:06:07 -!- andreou has quit. 03:11:39 -!- clog has joined. 03:11:39 -!- clog has joined. 06:28:38 -!- andreou has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:37:20 -!- andreou has quit. 17:08:18 -!- andreou has joined. 17:19:10 -!- docelic has joined. 17:19:22 -!- docelic has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:50:51 -!- lament has joined. 17:56:19 Pragmatic Programmers(tm) replied to my email. 17:56:26 What did they say? 17:56:30 They exhibit horrible suckage. 17:56:40 Well, that goes without saying. 17:56:53 And they probably reserve the right to include your email in their next book. 17:56:57 I deleted one of the answers 17:57:06 but here's the other one 17:57:16 We've always felt that Python's OO features has a distinctly "bolted-on" feel, 17:57:20 that they were neither integral nor seemless with the language on the whole. 17:57:22 Ruby, by comparison, is fully OO from the ground up -- native types included, 17:57:24 no 17:57:27 magic names with double underscores, etc. 17:57:30 That's the gist of it. 17:57:57 Well... My momma always used to say that you shouldn't trust someone who can't spell 'seamless'. 17:58:38 well, hey - _i_ don't subscribe to their mailing list :) 17:58:46 Ouch. Touché. 18:00:21 BTW, what is Touche? 18:00:30 Like 'got me' or something? 18:00:35 Yeah. 18:00:41 I think it's a fencing term. 18:06:16 There're too many esoteric languages :( 18:06:56 Just eliminate the useless ones, then. Oh, wait... 18:07:18 :-) 18:08:22 well, there're some genuinely bad ones 18:08:34 like ook :) 18:08:41 And E ;) 18:08:51 Most of the minimal assemblers are rather mediocre 18:09:14 which includes brainfuck, but brainfuck is special 18:52:12 X::=~# 18:52:12 Y::=~* 18:52:12 Z::=~\n 18:52:12 _.::=._X 18:52:12 _*::=*_Y 18:52:14 ._|::=.Z-| 18:52:17 *_|::=Z 18:52:19 ..-::=.-. 18:52:22 **-::=*-. 18:52:25 *.-::=*-* 18:52:27 .*-::=.-* 18:52:28 I love Thue. 18:52:29 @.-::=@_. 18:52:32 (.) (.) 18:52:32 @*-::=@_* 18:52:35 ::= 18:52:35 ) ( 18:52:37 @_*...............| 18:52:38 ( # ) 18:53:24 Note: That program requires a thue interpreter that understands \n 18:53:42 We call this piece 'andreou's naked ascii-art woman bisected by a Thue program' 18:53:46 What does it do? 18:54:09 it's the sierpinski cellular automaton 18:54:14 heH 18:54:15 Ah. 18:54:32 thue is really awesome for some kinds of stuff 18:54:39 and absolutely horrible for others 18:54:53 Duh. 18:54:54 I wrote a simple rhythm pattern generator in three or so lines 18:55:01 (yay for randomness) 18:55:12 And then i wante to write an interactive fiction game... 18:55:16 *wanted 18:59:32 so, i created four rooms, and the player could move from room to room 18:59:54 but if player typed anything other than n,e,s,w, the game immediately ended :( 19:00:04 thue IO sucks. 19:00:06 Tsk, tsk. 19:00:06 especially I. 19:00:26 Thue with wildcards. That would be interesting. 19:00:32 yes 19:00:36 i thought about using regexes 19:00:55 Heh... Do it in SED, you freak. ;) 19:01:01 no 19:01:40 Yeah... SED isn't very interesting as an esoteric language :/ 19:01:49 well, it's neat 19:01:52 but it's a bit too powerful. 19:02:16 Just make a Thue where ? matches any single character. 19:02:17 :) 19:02:30 My pattern generator, by the way, output things like X.X.XX.X.X.X.XX. 19:03:02 All such patterns have the property of sounding cool. 19:03:14 Heh... Coolness is subjective. 19:03:19 except perhaps X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X. 19:04:05 You should read the book 'From Polychords to Pólya' by Mike Keith... It goes through the mathematics of scales, chords and rhythms :) 19:04:35 I'm generally not very interested in generated music 19:04:57 or in mathematics of musics for that matter 19:05:13 *music :) 19:05:22 It's too scary a subject 19:06:03 Awww... Is iddle-widdle lament afraid? 19:06:10 yes 19:06:21 i'm afraid of computers being able to create good music :) 19:06:38 bad music is ok, though 19:06:42 alt.drugs.intercal 19:07:18 Heh... I imagine Intercal is classified as a depressant, and not as a stimulant... ;) 19:07:42 I think that when I was programming in Intercal I was seeing colors... 19:07:57 hm, how do i generate a sierpinsi triangle which is not slanted? 19:08:07 Slanted ==? 19:08:31 the first four lines of the output of the program i pasted: 19:08:31 * 19:08:32 * 19:08:33 ** 19:08:33 * * 19:08:33 **** 19:08:35 * * 19:08:37 Argh. 19:08:39 haha 19:08:45 Oh well. 19:09:38 one thing i don't like about Thue is that programs are too long and narrow 19:10:04 they just don't look cool 19:10:15 unlike most befunge programs, for example 19:10:16 *cough* Subjective *cough* 19:10:42 and, of course, the stupid need to escape newlines 19:10:53 really, thue programs should use a binary format :) 19:11:30 Yes, subjective. But would you put a thue program in your signature? 19:12:27 I don't know. I don't use signatures. 19:13:58 see! 19:14:42 See what? 19:15:17 thue programs aren't compact. 19:15:23 compact is good. 19:15:36 It's thinking like that that brought us Perl. 19:15:51 If you want compact, go code in J. 19:16:06 well, Perl is a great esoteric language. 19:16:20 Except for the fact that people haven't realised it's esoteric. 19:16:31 Some have! 19:16:36 Not enough. 19:16:38 *cough*perl golf 19:17:05 anyway, they might not realize it, but _of course_ it's esoteric. 19:17:21 and wonderfully compact. 19:18:41 significant newlines are highly non-esoteric. 19:18:47 fewd. 19:19:36 -!- andreou has quit. 20:52:57 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 21:21:57 -!- andreou has joined. 21:49:37 -!- lament has joined.