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01:08:56 <WildHalcyon_> Sorry about my lack of patience yesterday, I was tired, and Im still really sick
01:09:27 <WildHalcyon_> I'd been reading the logs, and I was hoping to run across bbls, so I could comment on some of the ideas he'd put forth regarding his new language
01:09:56 <WildHalcyon_> brb
01:34:35 <WildHalcyon_> back!
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02:17:24 <WildHalcyon_> stupid computer...
02:17:51 <Toreun> yay redundantly redundant
02:18:27 <WildHalcyon_> lol, sorry
02:18:45 <WildHalcyon_> I should have said "deathly ill computer"
02:18:58 <Toreun> what's wrong with it?
02:19:36 <WildHalcyon_> Well, it goes through these bouts of freezing
02:20:03 <WildHalcyon_> Im not sure exactly when or why it happens, but the only solution I've found so far has been a clean reinstall of XP
02:21:58 <Toreun> hmm... well, maybe it's not a software problem.  could be the motherboard.  check with support forums for your computer, see if it happens to other people.
02:22:14 <Toreun> if it happens after you reinstall the OS
02:22:28 <WildHalcyon_> Well, once I reinstall the OS, its okay for a while...
02:22:32 <WildHalcyon_> and I KNOW its a hardware problem
02:22:37 <WildHalcyon_> but I dont have the bling-bling to fix it
02:22:58 <Toreun> well if it's a bug in the hardware, call up the company
02:23:14 <Toreun> they should replace it if it's a common problem, no matter what
02:23:29 <WildHalcyon_> Im not sure which company to call... motherboard? graphics card? memory?
02:23:41 <WildHalcyon_> it might even be my DVD drive
02:23:44 <WildHalcyon_> Im not sure
02:23:50 <Toreun> DVD drive?
02:23:55 <mooz-> try disconnecting parts?
02:24:19 <Toreun> it's prolly not the gfx card
02:24:27 <Toreun> it could be memory
02:24:28 <mooz-> I've got a flaky gfx card actually
02:24:41 <Toreun> but to freeze the computer entirely?
02:24:46 <mooz-> freezes the comp and every reboot I have to boot several times until a pic comes up
02:24:52 <Toreun> weird
02:24:56 <mooz-> yup
02:25:02 <Toreun> check if others have problems with the hardware you have
02:25:16 <mooz-> I got this from work, being a matrox I still like it more than my old voodoo3 despite the oddities :)
02:25:18 <WildHalcyon_> Ive checked and I havent found anything, I posted the problem in several forums
02:25:24 <Toreun> hmm
02:26:02 <WildHalcyon_> all I know is - its only an XP problem, I had windows 2K server, and it didnt freeze up
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02:27:36 <mooz-> first thought would be to run without one of the memory boards
02:27:46 <mooz-> see if that helps
02:27:49 <WildHalcyon_> I've tried switching them out
02:27:52 <WildHalcyon_> nothing yet
02:28:21 <WildHalcyon_> Right now, I think I might just deal until my student loans come in, then I can buy a new one
02:29:46 <WildHalcyon_> oh well
02:29:57 <WildHalcyon_> until then, I'll just bask in the glory of esoteric programming languages
02:31:24 <mooz-> I'm going to go ponder about how much taking care of an iguana would cost, and try to sleep also
02:31:33 <Toreun> at the same time?
02:31:45 <Toreun> sleeping and pondering about iguanas...
02:31:48 <Toreun> interesting
02:32:19 <mooz-> the temperature here fits them better than me so I can't sleep
02:33:46 <WildHalcyon_> maybe you'll have freaky iguana dreams
02:35:15 <Toreun> like Godzilla
02:35:30 <WildHalcyon_> that was one freaky iguana
02:37:34 <WildHalcyon_> Like most estranged youths, I've been trying to create an esoteric language, iguana wouldn't be a bad name for it...
02:38:01 <Toreun> iguana is a pretty good name for an esoteric language
02:38:14 <Toreun> now you'd just have to make a recursive acronym out of it
02:38:37 <Toreun> what's your esolang like?
02:38:38 <WildHalcyon_> That's always the fun part
02:38:47 <WildHalcyon_> Its sadly a little on the boring side..
02:38:59 <Toreun> oh?
02:39:01 <WildHalcyon_> Ive always liked befunge, but I thought it was a little too... I dont know... too much like a toy
02:39:20 <WildHalcyon_> and I thought I would be horrible and make a useful version, one that had some added abilities
02:39:27 <WildHalcyon_> Im debating about lambda calculus
02:40:08 <Toreun> :-D
02:40:44 <WildHalcyon_> either that, or functions/procedures
02:40:59 <WildHalcyon_> but regardless... the part that Im having trouble with is that, since befunge is a 2D language, I want the functions to be 2D as well
02:41:24 <WildHalcyon_> and I want to be able to mark how tall/wide the function is in the definition
02:41:28 <Toreun> you could define functions as being a set of locations in a plane
02:41:57 <WildHalcyon_> I was thinking of having a function definition defined by a vector - a point and an x and y coordinate for a rectangle
02:42:18 <Toreun> yeah
02:42:31 <WildHalcyon_> within the rectangle, the function IP behaves exactly like a regular fungish pointer - on a torus
02:43:24 <Toreun> I have functions uncreatively in my esolang. you can just define characters as including a file
02:43:42 <WildHalcyon_> I dont understand?
02:44:13 <Toreun> well, you could define a character, let's say 'q', as doing whatever is in a file "foobar"
02:44:22 <WildHalcyon_> Ohh!
02:44:23 <WildHalcyon_> I see
02:44:26 <Toreun> yeah
02:44:28 <WildHalcyon_> well, that's not too bad
02:44:40 <WildHalcyon_> That's actually very good
02:44:44 <Toreun> but it's not really a function as it is more like a symlink
02:44:53 <Toreun> because it doesn't have scope or anything
02:45:11 <WildHalcyon_> well, yeah.. but it certainly has modularity - every function is immediately a modular file
02:45:17 <Toreun> yeah
02:45:28 <WildHalcyon_> My crazy comp sci 101 prof. would be thrilled - he LOVED modularity
02:45:30 <Toreun> it made my life easy when proving turing-completeness for my language
02:46:01 <WildHalcyon_> My language isn't special enough to require a very well-thought-out proof for TC
02:46:18 <Toreun> well, mine was pretty obviously turing complete
02:46:23 <Toreun> but I wanted to prove it nonethesame
02:46:29 <Toreun> I just wrote a brainfuck interpreter for it
02:46:30 <Toreun> in it**
02:46:37 <WildHalcyon_> well, that'll prove it then
02:46:40 <Toreun> yeah
02:46:50 <Toreun> it's extremely slow, but that's to be expected
02:47:11 <WildHalcyon_> Yeah, Ive been working on my language for a few months (3.... I think), because I'm having a big issue deciding how to call the functions
02:47:22 <Toreun> see, I wrote my interpreter in PHP, an interpreted language.  so I had my brainfuck interpreter being interpreted by my language interpreter being interpreted by a php interpreter being interpreted by the processor
02:47:30 <WildHalcyon_> One option is just to push the function name onto the stack and have an 'execute' command
02:47:42 <WildHalcyon_> It must not have been very fast...
02:47:51 <Toreun> no
02:48:11 <Toreun> one of these days I'll rewrite it in C
02:48:21 <Toreun> hmm... you handle strings?
02:48:28 <Toreun> oh, it's like befunge
02:48:29 <WildHalcyon_> Possibly
02:48:29 <Toreun> yeah
02:48:35 <WildHalcyon_> Im actually debating that
02:48:46 <WildHalcyon_> I might just handle chars and 8-bit ints
02:49:07 <WildHalcyon_> and then support a library of functions to deal with strings and 32/64/9999-bit ints, and floating point numbers
02:50:00 <Toreun> I sort of have string support... I have a buffer that concatenates digits to represent a decimal number
02:50:12 <WildHalcyon_> Another option I was considering was using unicode for the programming and having function names be japanese kanji characters - but I thought that might be too hard to program in
02:50:19 <Toreun> that's... evil
02:50:21 <Toreun> I like it
02:50:27 <Toreun> brb
02:50:31 <WildHalcyon_> I might make it a derivative language ;-)
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02:59:12 <WildHalcyon> bah!
02:59:22 <WildHalcyon> computer slightly mad
03:14:16 <Toreun> back
03:17:30 <Toreun> your computer must not like that you're suggesting esoteric programming languages
03:17:32 <Toreun> it's getting scared
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03:17:59 <WildHalcyon__> my computer fears me
03:18:02 <WildHalcyon__> muahahahaha!
03:18:23 <Toreun> hmm... not so scared as it is frantic.
03:18:36 <Toreun> my computer's afraid of me - it listens to me
03:18:40 <WildHalcyon__> well... every attempt to subvert me only deepens my resolve
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03:20:55 <WildHalcyon__> the evening is nigh... project 'iguana' shall be completed before its death
03:21:05 <WildHalcyon__> brb
03:21:18 <iamcal> project iguana?
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03:21:50 <WildHalcyon__> yes, its the temporary name of my esolang
03:22:01 <WildHalcyon__> toreun and I were discussing it earlier
03:22:08 <WildHalcyon__> fleshing out some bloody annoying details
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03:23:12 <Toreun> hmm whatever your computer's got must be contagious, WildHalcyon
03:23:13 <WildHalcyon__> my computer, in its infinite hatred of everything that I was, am, or ever will be, is trying to thwart my creative efforts
03:23:37 <WildHalcyon__> lol, yeah... its infected with RAGE... stupid 28 days later
03:27:00 <WildHalcyon__> its alright though, Im beginning with the good old-fashioned pencil-and-paper technique, I visualize stuff better when I write it down
03:27:30 <Toreun> I can never visualize things on the computer
03:28:12 <Toreun> I can never really be creative on a computer... especially a desktop
03:28:19 <WildHalcyon__> yeah, I have trouble with that too
03:28:46 <Toreun> I need to get my typewriter fixed.  I actually prefer writing, like narratives, etc, on a typewriter.
03:29:08 <WildHalcyon__> I think programming in befunge on a typewriter would be a little more than just difficult
03:29:17 <Toreun> yeah
03:29:21 <Toreun> I get that feeling too
03:31:47 <WildHalcyon__> So, I still need a method for calling methods
03:32:04 <WildHalcyon__> the execute-string method isn't necessarily BAD, its just not very esoteric
03:32:29 <Toreun> yeah
03:32:31 <Toreun> hmm
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03:33:37 <WildHalcyon__> at one point I was debating about 2D function names, but I dont think I can do it with just the 127 ascii characters
03:33:58 <Toreun> how about: get rid of methods all together - just have the equivalent of a goto in 2D
03:34:51 <WildHalcyon__> another possibility.
03:35:08 <Toreun> that way you can define "sections" of your code to be about one thing
03:35:08 <WildHalcyon__> I was thinking of having 2 types of gotos - a regular one, and a 'function' one that kept track of where it came from
03:35:17 <Toreun> ah, like gosub
03:35:35 <Toreun> that's what I meant
03:35:42 <Toreun> sorry, I'm speaking basic here, it seems
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03:36:31 <WildHalcyon__> its okay
03:36:42 <WildHalcyon__> I liked the term, and I understood it, even if Ive never learned basic
03:37:05 <Toreun> yeah. that's what basic's about, I guess
03:37:24 <Toreun> BASIC's my roots, though, and it's the only language I can think of with gosub
03:37:43 <WildHalcyon__> well, I might just have to get myself a BASIC education
03:37:46 <WildHalcyon__> ... sorry for the pun
03:38:09 <Toreun> it's okay.  I appreciate bad puns.
03:38:26 <Toreun> and I realized that would have been the perfect opportunity for INCLUDING a bad pun within that statement
03:38:30 <Toreun> but unfortunately, I could not think of any
03:38:48 <WildHalcyon__> lol, its what Im here for
03:40:03 <WildHalcyon__> brb
03:40:20 <Toreun> k
03:41:43 <WildHalcyon__> have you ever heard of the language java2k?
03:41:49 <Toreun> nope
03:41:59 <Toreun> but I would gather from the name that it's like a new version of Java
03:42:11 <Toreun> (a language which I cannot stand, btw)
03:42:32 <Toreun> (especially because it's overused WAY TOO MUCH)
03:42:36 <Toreun> (yeah, I'll stop ranting now)
03:42:58 <WildHalcyon__> lol, thats perfectly fine, no.. its more of a joke language
03:43:07 <Toreun> oh?
03:43:14 * Toreun googles it
03:43:29 <WildHalcyon__> it has random undefined behavior
03:43:35 <Toreun> ah, perfect time for my internet to crap out on me
03:43:56 <Toreun> ah, yes, so it's a lot like java
03:43:57 <WildHalcyon__> something works alright only 90% of the time, including the 90%
03:44:24 <Toreun> lol
03:44:28 <Toreun> what about that statistic?
03:45:02 <Toreun> and then that statistic?
03:45:28 <WildHalcyon__> "Java2K is not a deterministic programming language, but a probabilistic one. Even for built-in functions, there is only a certain probability the function will do whatever you intend it to do. All Functions have two different implementations. At runtime, based on a pseudo-RNG, the actual implementation is choosen. This is in line with common physicalist assumptions about the nature of the universe - there is never absolute securi
03:45:42 <WildHalcyon__> ays only probability"
03:45:43 <Toreun> yeah.  so I'll stop with the probability theory.
03:47:15 <WildHalcyon__> lol, its crzy
03:47:21 <Toreun> yeah
03:47:39 <Toreun> hmm... I guess if EVERYTHING holds true to the 90% of the time thing, we'd have a paradox
03:47:51 <Toreun> because it would become 0% eventually
03:48:10 <WildHalcyon__> well, theres one instruction which would operate 100%... Im trying to remember what it is, I think its an if statement
03:49:42 <Toreun> ah
03:49:44 <Toreun> that's no fun
03:49:53 <Toreun> I want a 90% chance of the if being an ifnot
03:50:19 <WildHalcyon__> there's one of those too, but this instruction is set up so that you can make it 99.9, or 99.99%
03:50:27 <Toreun> oh
03:50:39 <WildHalcyon__> Im sorry, Im not explaining it right
03:50:46 <WildHalcyon__> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/java2k.html
03:50:59 <Toreun> yeah, I think I'm on that site
03:51:02 <Toreun> yes, I am
03:52:26 <WildHalcyon__> but the manual is 404, you can get it cached one google though
03:52:38 <Toreun> yeah
03:58:13 <WildHalcyon__> brb, phone conversation distracting me
03:58:15 <Toreun> k
04:00:52 <WildHalcyon__> Phew... finally!
04:01:08 <Toreun> heh
04:01:18 <WildHalcyon__> so I've been looking at other langs (especially esolangs) to see what ideas I can 'borrow' (I prefer steal) to include
04:01:42 <Toreun> well, I'm writing up formal specs for my lang right now, actually
04:01:47 <Toreun> it's a 2D language
04:01:54 <Toreun> that was inspired by befunge
04:02:10 <WildHalcyon__> is it very similar to befunge, or is it more like argh or enema?
04:02:19 <Toreun> I'm not familiar with those two
04:02:24 <Toreun> but no, it's not similar to befunge
04:02:34 <Toreun> it's two dimensional
04:02:37 <Toreun> that's about it, I guess
04:03:05 <WildHalcyon__> the thing that I really like about two dimensional languages is that there's no need for for- and while- loop syntax, because you can just write your own
04:03:23 <Toreun> yeah
04:03:54 <WildHalcyon__> what else is special about it?
04:04:01 <Toreun> it has a stack and a queue
04:04:13 <Toreun> and it's self-modifying techniques I consider pretty original
04:05:44 <Toreun> here's the instruction list: http://www.toreun.org/quast/esolang.txt
04:05:49 <Toreun> it's not a specification, though
04:05:57 <Toreun> so a lot might be unexplained and confusing
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04:07:52 <WildHalcyon> its looks okay
04:09:11 <WildHalcyon> so there's a stack and a queue?
04:09:23 <Toreun> yeah
04:10:04 <Toreun> an a section called the "void" which is basically temp memory for operations
04:10:08 <Toreun> and a buffer
04:10:13 <Toreun> for numbers
04:11:02 <WildHalcyon> ohh, ok
04:11:25 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/quast
04:11:39 <Toreun> there's my interpreter, and my brainfuck interpreter
04:11:52 <Toreun> I'm off to bed, I'll finalize my specification tomorrow
04:12:01 <Toreun> g'night
04:12:01 <WildHalcyon> night then
04:12:34 <WildHalcyon> Im out of here too
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16:46:20 <calamari_> hi
16:46:46 <Toreun> hi
16:51:30 <Toreun> what's new, calamari_?
16:56:32 <calamari_> not too much.. haven't worked on anything since I released bfasm 0.10
16:56:52 <Toreun> oh, can I take a look at that?
16:57:31 <calamari_> sure :)  http://www.kidsquid.com/compilers/bfasm/bfasm.html
16:58:45 <Toreun> what syntax does it use? nasm?
16:59:35 <calamari_> I made up my own syntax for it based on what would be easiest to parse
17:00:47 <calamari_> 3 letter instruction..  operands  (spaces or tabs are ignored)
17:01:23 <calamari_> it looks pretty normal, though.. for example:   mov r1, r2
17:01:26 <Toreun> yeah, I see
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18:38:37 <lament_> calamari_: so are you going to compile C to it?
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18:53:07 <calamari_> lament: yeah, I still want to do that
18:53:28 <calamari_> it can't be ANSI C, tho
18:53:49 <calamari_> and that might upset some purists
18:54:00 <Taaus> Bah. C is so boring. Implement B instead!
18:54:21 <calamari_> BCPL ?
18:55:07 <Taaus> No, B. I believe it came somewhere in-between BCPL and C.
18:55:15 <deltab> yep
18:55:44 <Taaus> From what I've seen, it's something like a typeless C.
19:03:39 <calamari_> neat, B looks a lot closer to what I'll be doing: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/btut.html
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