04:05:41 <lament> shapr: it's not like Haskell is in any danger...
04:06:15 <shapr> wasn't talking about Haskell
04:06:28 <shapr> Joy is probably esoteric
04:08:05 <lament> ah, you're into _that_ as well :)
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13:30:28 <lindi-> ZeroOne: you mentioned some programming language that allowed changing the code without having to restart the program, what was it?
13:37:10 <ZeroOne> did I? when? are you sure I didn't refer to Befunge or some other language with self-modifying code?
13:37:25 <lindi-> hmm, maybe it was tazzle then?
13:39:29 <ZeroOne> could be, because I can't think of any such language from the top of my head, except interpreted languages which can be paused.
13:39:55 <ZeroOne> and even those don't allow much changing, like adding whole new lines
13:40:39 <fizzie> it's not like you _couldn't_ change the code of arbitrary program regardless of the language it's written in, just attach a debugger and re-write it's memory.
13:41:05 <lindi-> fizzie: sure sure, but tazle iirc mentioned some language where this functionality was extensively supported
13:41:23 <fizzie> I am not familiar with this "tazle" you speak of.
13:44:11 <lindi-> that's understandable, he's only on #tik04
13:45:27 <fizzie> I should probably go write some code now that I don't have any deadlines for tomorrow.
13:45:48 <fizzie> and the physics exercises for monday/tuesday look very un-fun.
13:49:03 <fizzie> "exercise 5: there's a car (mass m=1000kg) approaching a cliff at speed v=1.0cm/s. calculate the probability of said car reflecting off the cliff border. (hint: treat the cliff as a (gravity) potential wall, and write the schroedinger equation before and after the cliff. the probability of reflection is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the wave component moving backwards."
13:49:43 <fizzie> ok, so the question is funny, but solving the necessary differential equations wouldn't be.
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23:58:57 <ZeroOne> MCBC: http://web.archive.org/web/20040221222300/http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/
23:59:18 <ZeroOne> this thingie claims to be a befunge compiler
00:00:14 <ZeroOne> and "about 3.5 times faster than the fastest interpreter known to exist" (this is the point where lindi- should jump in to prove this guy wrong ;)
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11:28:06 <lindi-> ZeroOne: maybe, but it's hard to say because i can't get this MCBC (the site is down)
11:53:28 <ZeroOne> archive.org down? can't be... try again.
12:12:44 <lindi-> ZeroOne: nono, i can see the html page but the link to mtfi-1.21.tar.gz is broken
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17:04:21 <ZeroOne> http://web.archive.org/web/20040221222300/http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/mtfi-1.21.tar.gz works fine for me
17:05:09 <ZeroOne> but that's just the interpreter, http://web.archive.org/web/20040221222300/http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/mcbc10.zip would be the compiler (apparently for MS-DOS)
17:16:13 <lindi-> ZeroOne: mm, i have a feeling i once read the sources through
17:30:05 <lindi-> ZeroOne: too bad it's DOS only :(
17:31:51 <lindi-> would be really interesting to see a benchmark
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17:07:59 <shapr> Smalltalk lets you change lots of code and keep going.
17:08:07 <shapr> I thought Common Lisp does that too.
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22:16:00 <ZeroOne> "Lost terminal"? hmm. maybe we should help him look for it.
22:16:29 <fizzie> interesting question. his ircnet-client is there. (45min idle.)
22:17:30 <ZeroOne> but he doesn't have auto-accept invites on
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22:19:17 <fizzie> oh, also connected to freenode, too, just not joined here.
22:20:06 <ZeroOne> fizzie: I thought that was exactly what you meant :p
22:20:25 <ZeroOne> Hipo: what esolangs are you into?
22:21:19 <fizzie> I'd have said 'irc client', not 'ircnet-client', then.
22:21:35 <Hipo> ZeroOne: What esolang?
22:21:43 <ZeroOne> Hipo: esoteric programming languages
22:21:54 <ZeroOne> I just can't be bothered to type the full phrase every time ;)
22:22:31 <fizzie> EPL sounds like JCL or some other relic from the distant past.
22:22:32 <Hipo> What those are exactly?
22:23:01 <ZeroOne> Hipo: like Brainfuck, Befunge, Whitespace, INTERCAL, Unlambda, ...
22:23:27 <ZeroOne> I thought you knew because you joined this channel
22:23:30 <fizzie> is there a good url-answer to that question, btw?
22:23:30 <Hipo> A bit brainfuck.
22:23:46 <Hipo> ZeroOne: No, I joined because you mentioned this channel on that other channel. :)
22:24:09 <ZeroOne> fizzie: how about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_esoteric_programming_languages
22:24:25 <Hipo> I don't like esoteric languages. :)
22:25:11 <fizzie> zeroone; it'll get deleted soon anyway. :p
22:25:34 <ZeroOne> fizzie: nope, the Votes for Deletion nomination was cancelled.
22:25:59 <fizzie> the catseye esoteric-topics-in-computer-programming page used to be a good starting point, but is that thing even alive any more?
22:26:19 <ZeroOne> yeah, it just changed its address. just a sec, I'll look it up.
22:26:27 <ZeroOne> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/
22:26:38 <fizzie> the :8080 is hard to remember.
22:26:49 <fizzie> that wikipedia article links to an archive.org copy.
22:27:08 <ZeroOne> above the archive.org copy is a link to that new version...
22:27:49 <fizzie> hey, I'm already in bed and half-asleep, can't notice everything.
22:28:35 <ZeroOne> might be a good idea. gotta get up early tomorrow. I slipped school today. ;)
22:29:04 <fizzie> I only missed the first four hours of lectures today.
22:29:16 <fizzie> had some trouble getting out of bed in the morning.
22:30:11 <fizzie> so I managed to catch a boring/useless scheme lecture and an even more useless "how to use matlab to calculate stuff like 1+1" exercise session, instead of anything useful.
22:30:27 <fizzie> in retrospect, might've made more sense just to stay home.
22:31:34 <Hipo> Hmm, maybe I should write an esolanguage of my own...
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22:34:14 <fizzie> whu? the ru keymap has , and . as shift-6 and shift-7, respectively.
22:34:40 <fizzie> I guess it's because they have all those extra letters.
22:38:24 <fizzie> (just happened to notice.)
22:59:45 <Hipo> Yea, a pony. Just came to my mind.
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15:47:52 <ZeroOne> Hipo: should you do that, you might want to either read all of those through because most stuff has already been invented
15:48:13 <ZeroOne> or you may want to read nothing so not to be influenced by solutions of other people
15:49:23 <Hipo> The point of esoteric language is just that its insane and not for real use? I don't mind if I use same idea that some other language already uses... :)
15:51:52 <fizzie> 1. (1) esoteric -- (confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories")
16:10:36 <Hipo> Why there's link to Scheme48 in topic? Scheme isn't an esoteric language...
16:11:11 <mtve> we should add +t mode i guess
16:11:37 <mtve> meanwhile feel free to change the topic :)
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20:37:39 <lindi-> ZeroOne: hey, i just implemented support for converting numbers larger than 11!-1 to the base factorial. using the parenthesis for larger multipliers 25399113151916313 becomes (11)(10)(1)987654321 which is actully longer than the base 10 presentation...
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12:05:19 <ZeroOne> but we did count that factorial based numbering system would become shorter than decimal notation after approx 10^15, didn't we?
12:05:30 <ZeroOne> but that of course assumed new characters
12:08:32 <lindi-> not quite sure, this is some class in the main building
12:08:34 <ZeroOne> btw, I assigned alias "ipne" for "pine"
12:08:55 <ZeroOne> p and i are difficult characters
12:09:29 <ZeroOne> wonder why some of these OS's don't recognize "ping" command
12:09:47 <lindi-> they do, but you have to tell the exact path i think
12:10:07 <ZeroOne> I'm at a box named tempest. If I type "ping vipunen" it says "vipunen is alive". if I ping anything from vipunen, the command is not recognized
12:10:46 <ZeroOne> p and i are difficult characters to type in the right order if they're right one after another
12:11:11 <ZeroOne> nice, I've got two minutes for moving this 200 meters to the main building
12:11:17 <lindi-> i'm trying to figure out how to print the notes at http://www.hut.fi/~jnyman/
12:11:46 <lindi-> actually, why print, i could copy them to my communicator :P
15:47:41 <fizzie> back when I used pine I always typoed it "oubi".
15:48:16 <fizzie> which is strange, "pine" << 1 = "oubw", not oubi.
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19:55:07 <Keymaker> i don't get this ypsilax. i don't get it at all.. :\
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13:05:02 <lindi-> fizzie_: just saw "pc[-2].insn = &&invokevirtual_resolved;" in gcc/libjava/interpret.cc and it immediately reminded me of your ff :) negative array indexes and computed gotos on the same line, hrm
13:13:42 <lindi-> fizzie_: i just got this evil idea, that if i could convert befunge to bytecode it could be fed to gcc and it could build a binary
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17:04:55 <fizzie_> I hear writing gcc frontends (for languages) isn't exactly trivial.
17:05:00 <fizzie_> but yes, I guess it could be done.
17:17:53 <lindi-> fizzie_: have you taken any java courses at HUT btw?
17:18:13 <lindi-> .. or courses where they require you to do use java
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17:25:21 <fizzie_> but I don't think it'll be easy to avoid.
17:25:33 <fizzie_> even the compiler course people use java to implement their stuff.
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14:52:06 <lindi-> fizzie: ff seems output zero for all inputs with http://iki.fi/lindi/factorial.bf . i get correct results with mooz's bef, any idea what's wrong?
15:12:42 <fizzie> is most likely the cause.
15:13:24 <fizzie> if you have a simple test case where it behaves differently than mooz's bef, I can try to get it fixed at some point. pretty busy right now, though.
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17:55:05 <Keymaker> how many days it is since someone said a word? :p
17:59:33 <fizzie> [2004-10-29 17:17:34] < fizzie> if you have a simple test case where it behaves differently than mooz's bef, I can try to get it fixed at some point. pretty busy right now, though.
17:59:37 <fizzie> that's only two days ago.
17:59:57 <fizzie> now off to the grocery store to get some food before they close. ->
18:57:53 <Keymaker> one thing in a brainfuck program i was writing..
18:59:27 <fizzie> is this brainf*ck program about anything interesting? -g
18:59:51 <Keymaker> it shall tell if isbn number is correct or not
19:02:19 <fizzie> a-hum. sounds very useful, if you happen to have some brainf*ck-scriptable system you need to do isbn-checking in.
19:02:45 <Keymaker> i need to contact the local library
19:04:33 <lindi-> fizzie: not really esoteric, but do you know a portable way to do assert() in java? assert(foo) works in 1.2 and 1.5 but out homework checker uses 1.4 and complains loudly
19:06:20 <lindi-> it's temporarily fixed with private static void xassert(boolean b){if(!b) throw new AssertionError();}
19:09:02 <fizzie> hummn. just using the 'assert' keyword should, as far as I know, work in 1.4 too.
19:09:40 <lindi-> well, they mention it in the documentation but it still gives me errors
19:10:13 <lindi-> (just a sec, i'll give the details)
19:10:28 <fizzie> it's supposed to be a keyword nowadays, but using it should still work.
19:11:04 <fizzie> you might need to invoke javac with "-source 1.4" if you want to use assertions.
19:11:22 <lindi-> well, i can't do that. the homework checker is automated
19:11:45 <fizzie> strange that it works in 1.2, though.
19:11:55 <fizzie> see http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/lang/assert.html#compatibility
19:12:13 <fizzie> well, in 1.5 probably the default is to use the new semantics.
19:12:25 <fizzie> where 'assert' is a keyword, and thusly not a legal identifier.
19:15:07 <fizzie> "Unless you specifically request source mode 1.4 with the -source 1.4 flag, the compiler operates in source mode 1.3. If you forget to use this this flag, programs that use the new assert statement will not compile. Having the compiler use the old semantics as its default behavior (that is, allowing assert to be used as an identifier) was done for maximal source compatibility. Source mode 1.3 is likely to be phased out over time."
19:15:39 <fizzie> why do you need assertions in java-homework?
19:17:58 <fizzie> you're not supposed to use good style and sophisticated design yet. :p
19:18:44 <fizzie> (says the one who started to write yet another scheme object system and a gui toolkit for his t-93.211 work.)
19:19:46 <lindi-> well, i wish we had scheme :/
19:20:36 <fizzie> I've looked at some of this year's homework assignments. they seem sort-of silly, at least the ones I happened to look at.
19:22:43 <lindi-> i think the only problem is that it's targeted to everyone and not just CS people. also, it's more about java than programming in general
19:23:31 <fizzie> this latter part of the scheme course we're having now manages to be somewhat interesting, actually.
19:24:17 <fizzie> it's about implementing interpreters. they even mention continuations, which is funky.
19:24:56 <fizzie> although it makes no sense that there's no homework-style stuff, only 3 hours of lectures/week. I'm not quite sure the majority will learn these things too well.
19:25:45 <fizzie> the interpreter code we look at during the lecture is available to play with, in the interweb, but your regular student probably won't bother unless there are some graded homework assignments about it.
19:26:08 <fizzie> at least in brown university, where we've stolen the material from, they have homework assignment rounds.
19:30:37 <fizzie> probably didn't bother since this'll be the only time they're arranging the course.
19:34:58 <fizzie> arr, I'll be having mat-2.090 (Applied Probability A) and tfy-0.201 (physics III) exams tomorrow, and the latter doesn't sound good at all.
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