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04:40:56 <GregorR> Hoopla! ^_^ http://www.befunge.org/fyb/
04:42:29 <GregorR> Anybody want to challenge me at Befunge? :)
04:42:40 * GregorR needs to read before he hits enter.
04:42:47 <GregorR> Anybody want to challenge me at FukYorBrane? :)
04:44:28 <heatsink> Actually, I should read this README first.
04:45:25 <GregorR> Not the one on the forum, I've changed it a bit >_>
04:51:34 <heatsink> a command greater than 16 is a NOP?
04:52:28 <GregorR> Also made it possible to have no decrement.
04:52:33 <GregorR> Because decrementing is for pussies.
04:53:00 <GregorR> I refer to, of course, weak or feeble-minded people, no female genetalia.
04:53:57 <heatsink> okay, let's see what I can do.
04:54:33 <GregorR> The slow code is part of the idea - it takes a long time to do complex logical operations, so the other program has a chance to do quick evil things.
04:54:42 <GregorR> It balanced out simple-vs-complex a bit.
04:55:01 <GregorR> I've spent WAY too much time on design in this "language" :-P
05:01:13 <heatsink> If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop?
05:02:17 <GregorR> No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning.
05:02:25 <GregorR> So eventually one would find the other pointer.
05:02:33 <GregorR> Plus, it won't go more than 10,000,000 ticks.
05:03:03 <heatsink> Both pointers are moving simultaneously. I'd like to know if it's possible that they will always miss each other.
05:03:53 <GregorR> { checks if program As data pointer is on top of program Bs program pointer. Program Bs program pointer is just going in a tiny loop, it's not constantly moving.
05:04:05 <GregorR> It's feasable, it could be like this:
05:04:11 <GregorR> Hmm, how to represent this...
05:05:05 <GregorR> But I don't think that would work, since the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer.
05:05:32 <GregorR> In my twisted mind that's a Matrix scene :-P
05:07:33 <GregorR> Hmm, I should have mentioned that in the README.
05:08:07 <GregorR> One of the principles behind FYB is that the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer it's chasing, because it will take at least three commands to move the data pointer with any sort of logic.
05:10:49 * GregorR is so afraid that you're going to quickly write a program that will whoop all my programs' arses :-P
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05:29:22 <heatsink> I beat mangler, but lose to logicex
05:29:47 <heatsink> I reinvented your trick of a one-time-through thread at the beginning of the program.
05:31:13 <GregorR> Since I use that trick in every single one, I don't think it matters ;-P
05:31:22 <GregorR> Unless by "reinvented" you mean "made significantly better"
05:31:31 <GregorR> logicex is my trophy *shrugs*
05:31:50 <GregorR> I'd also try findAndDestroy, though with the one-time-through-thread at the beginning it ought to be no problem.
05:33:26 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm, just noticed something that may be a bug...
05:33:28 <heatsink> My one time through impl is a little bit simpler, just a few [+]s
05:34:01 <GregorR> When you fork, it ought to gain the parent-process' defect status...
05:34:05 <GregorR> But I don't think that it is...
05:34:52 <GregorR> Then there's probably something snarky about your once-through thread.
05:35:00 <GregorR> That's designed to keep findAndDestroy busy
05:35:10 <GregorR> Oop, I indeed screwed up that inheritance...
05:37:28 <GregorR> a0.5 released with that fix :-P
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07:14:25 <GregorR> It's a combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars.
07:14:30 <GregorR> See http://www.befunge.org/fyb/
07:15:11 <calamari> haha cool idea.. corewars is an oldie but goodie
07:25:24 <GregorR> Yeah, a friend introduced me to it and I thought I could sort of one-up the evil :-P
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10:16:55 <pgimeno> <heatsink> If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop?
10:16:55 <pgimeno> <GregorR> No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning.
10:17:27 <pgimeno> I was wondering... what about each program running in the opposite direction to the other?
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15:50:57 <GregorR> When you < past the beginning, it does NOT go to the end.
15:51:41 <GregorR> If < looped, then <[+]+++++++++++++++! would be the perfect bomb - you're 100% guaranteed to hit the last command.
15:54:18 <pgimeno> my idea (or better my random thought) was that > increments for one of the programs and decrements for the other
15:55:15 <pgimeno> and the code pointer increases for one of the programs and decreases for the other
15:55:37 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, like one program actually runs in reverse.
15:55:50 <GregorR> I don't have a mirror command :-P
15:56:32 <pgimeno> no, the idea is to confront them, not to use a mirror command
15:57:22 <GregorR> So it sticks the two chunks of code at opposite ends of the same program space and they go towards eachother? (Or still different program space?)
15:58:17 <pgimeno> yeah, but totally transparently (i.e. no program knows if it's going in the forward or reverse direction)
15:58:59 <GregorR> You are totally free to implement it ;)
15:59:31 <pgimeno> I'm already busy with my malbolge 'cat'
15:59:47 <GregorR> Yeah, malbolge can keep you busy all right X-D
16:00:11 <pgimeno> I've managed to get it working by preloading the memory; now I need to set that memory up via an initialization routine
16:00:43 <pgimeno> that's actually even harder
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17:05:58 <fizzie> Fnur... befunge.org (and thus FYB, too) will be offline for a few minutes (I hope) now, as I install a third NIC to the router box.
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18:29:45 <Keymaker> hmm, it's crowded here today :)
18:50:58 <Keymaker> (sorry about delay, i wasn't in front of computer)
18:51:37 <GregorR-L> Anybody beat my FYB logicex program yet? :-P
18:52:09 <GregorR-L> It helps to be the one who wrote the language :-P
18:52:29 <Keymaker> at least sometimes (like in malbolge ;))
18:52:48 <GregorR-L> It also helps to simply not be malbolge ;)
18:53:44 <pgimeno> Dis is a language designed by Ben Olmstead too, seeing that Malbolge succeeded just too much in being unuseable
18:54:09 <GregorR-L> Dis is also the name of the virtual machine within the Inferno computer operating system. Dis was designed to execute programs written in the programming language Limbo.
18:54:47 <GregorR-L> Back to writing a formal report about fake things I don't care about.
18:55:46 <Keymaker> is there any info about dis anywhere?
18:55:58 <Keymaker> sample programs? language info?
18:57:49 <pgimeno> well, there's the old page by Ben in the web archive
18:58:04 <pgimeno> other than that, it's not very popular
18:58:25 <pgimeno> basically it's the same as Malbolge but removing the encryption and self-modification
18:59:31 <pgimeno> well, it still has a program counter and a data conter, both being auto-increased
18:59:56 <pgimeno> only for masochists like me :P
19:00:49 <pgimeno> I've also tasted BF, it rocks!
19:01:17 <pgimeno> I've written an esoteric languages article in spanish, I have a half-translation somewhere...
19:01:31 <pgimeno> BF is the "star" of the article
19:01:42 <Keymaker> brainfuck is just simply so cool
19:01:55 <pgimeno> I've also written an optimizing interpreter
19:01:58 <Keymaker> in eight powerful instructions
19:02:28 <GregorR-L> BF is really quite interesting. It's about the most "pure" example of a turing machine.
19:02:33 <Keymaker> it's programming on so simple level, i love the instructions :)
19:03:00 <GregorR-L> I once made a non-rule-checking checkers game in BF.
19:03:17 <pgimeno> oh, optimizing interpreter plus debugger, I must add
19:03:31 <GregorR-L> Well, it just had a board, and the user just said "move this piece there"
19:03:38 <GregorR-L> It didn't verify that anything was done legally :-P
19:04:06 <GregorR-L> Ohhhhhhhhh. Hmm. Wikipedia to the rescue I think.......
19:04:41 <GregorR-L> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkers
19:05:08 <Keymaker> haven't played nor know rules though
19:05:40 <GregorR-L> A very limited checkers game in BF.
19:05:45 <GregorR-L> And I cheated and used a C preprocessor.
19:06:01 <pgimeno> hehe, well, some tricks can be used
19:06:23 <GregorR-L> Anyway, my harddisk crashed so it's lost :'(
19:06:43 <Keymaker> i think i could code a game like that
19:06:54 <pgimeno> heh, it would be cool if it appeared as a type-in program in a magazine :P
19:07:03 <GregorR-L> It wasn't so much challenging as incredibly mind-numningly painful *shrugs*
19:09:25 <pgimeno> here's my article in English (the translation is still preliminary; needs some work, and some parts still need to be translated): http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/EsotericLanguages.html
19:09:51 <pgimeno> the optimizing interpreter/debugger was written as a companion for that article; it's linked somewhere
19:09:51 <Keymaker> i'll take a look, seems interesting :)
19:11:57 <pgimeno> direct link to the debugger: http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/files/brfd10.zip
19:13:17 <GregorR-L> Ooooooh, let's see if I can find this.......
19:13:40 <GregorR-L> I made a 2D language (a la PATH) that had only two operations that were overloaded by direction......
19:14:22 <Keymaker> (about bf interpreters; there are thousands of them!!!!)
19:15:09 <GregorR-L> I don't use it though, I just wrote it for kicks.
19:15:17 <pgimeno> heh, every man and his dog's BF interpreter
19:15:36 <pgimeno> if I want to test simple code I usually look for one in JS
19:16:21 <GregorR-L> Mind if I paste the code to make an H (8 lines)
19:16:33 <GregorR-L> ##################################+
19:16:33 <GregorR-L> *#***********************************************************************+
19:17:04 <Keymaker> (looks pretty interesting though!)
19:17:06 <GregorR-L> # isn't an instruction, it's just my way of remembering where I am X-D
19:17:26 <fizzie> I wrote a bf interpreter when I couldn't find one with a working single-step mode. :p
19:17:41 <fizzie> (And one in scheme when I had nothing to do.)
19:17:41 <GregorR-L> Like BF, anything that isn't a command is a comment
19:18:03 <GregorR-L> * = all stack and IO operations, + = branch
19:18:05 <Keymaker> do you have language specification anywhere?
19:19:00 <pgimeno> oh, in the article I propose a BF challenge (which can be split into three): write the shortest possible BF code which stores the number 111 in a memory position
19:20:10 <pgimeno> that number is deliberately outside of Franz Faase's table (of course)
19:20:32 <Keymaker> (must go now for a while, someone else wants to use this computer)
19:20:43 <GregorR-L> I can't find the spec, but I can rewrite it.
19:21:45 <pgimeno> damn, I didn't provide a license for brfd...
19:22:48 <pgimeno> let's say it's public domain
19:25:16 <pgimeno> oh, brfd broke an ANSI C standard regarding the length of a string constant (the help text of the debugger was too long)
19:32:29 <GregorR-L> Darn, I don't think this is my latest revision of 2L ... damn my hard disk failure >_O
19:35:57 <pgimeno> is it Whirl-like? does it have a wheel of opcodes?
19:36:14 <GregorR-L> The op it runs depends on the direction of the program flow.
19:37:43 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/2l/README
19:38:08 <GregorR-L> If that logic tree is to totally random to decipher, tell me, I might be able to change it around a bit :-P
19:39:01 <GregorR-L> I even had a 2l compiler before my HD crash :(
19:40:51 <GregorR-L> BTW, 2L stands for "The 2 Language"
19:44:05 <pgimeno> I'd say it has two symbols rather than two operations
19:44:52 <fizzie> BrainFuck (and 2l, apparently) operate on a tape, not a stack. A stack would be a FIFO structure. Other than that, looks like a language I wouldn't want to _have_ to use for some real project. :)
19:45:37 <pgimeno> a stack would be a LIFO ;)
19:46:58 <pgimeno> well, it has that amazing simplicity that makes up a funny esoteric language :)
19:47:51 <pgimeno> I'd like to see a stable homepage for it
19:48:29 <GregorR-L> You #esoteric people are so nice 8-D
19:48:54 <pgimeno> I have to consult it, but I can't give you write access, I just can post your page and maybe your changes
19:49:27 <pgimeno> I've seen so many esoteric language pages being lost
19:50:54 <GregorR-L> Just changed stack to tape and operation to symbol
19:51:29 <pgimeno> I suspect a Hello World will be huge...
19:52:35 <GregorR-L> I have a board on my wall that says "BEWARE OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING" and has that, some BF and some FYB posted :-P
19:53:17 <pgimeno> does anyone know something about BLANK? is it 2D?
19:54:00 <pgimeno> I'm trying to classify my bookmarks
19:55:14 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: in about one hour I can tell you if I can host your 2L page
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19:57:00 <pgimeno> fizzie: I haven't read the description thoroughly, but I've read this: "Blank is a combination of Befunge, False, and Brainf*ck,[...]"
19:57:29 <pgimeno> I wondered if the befungity came from being 2D
19:59:21 <fizzie> I don't remember anything really befungey about blank, but I have to admit I don't remember any details about the language.
19:59:44 <pgimeno> if you're sure it's not 2D, that's enough for me, thanks
20:00:13 <Keymaker> for the sake of simplicity there should be language using only space and new-line :)
20:00:49 <pgimeno> that's Whitespace, not to be confused with Blank :)
20:01:58 <Keymaker> i always thought there was just one, never noticed that :)
20:02:06 <pgimeno> Blank is not about spaces, I think
20:04:30 <fizzie> I think the befungey parts of blank are its stack-basedness, plus the instruction set is befunge-inspired. The program sits in a one-dimensional ring, however.
20:06:09 <Keymaker> i gotta ask GregorR-L if i can continue his 2l
20:06:57 <Keymaker> i mean with that that i would change the language a bit and its name as well
20:07:30 <pgimeno> yeah, I agree it could be better
20:09:07 <pgimeno> the problem with Blank is that there's no example in the web pages to figure out what it looks like... well, the description has some snippets but not enough as to get an idea
20:09:36 * pgimeno takes a look at the distribution
20:10:14 <pgimeno> oh, there are a few examples there
20:15:01 <pgimeno> I should have looked in www.99-bottles-of-beer.net
20:17:10 <Keymaker> that is really fascinating site :)
20:17:21 <Keymaker> by the way, iirc it has that for malbolge as well
20:17:37 <Keymaker> that probably means someone has managed to make some loop stuff or something?
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20:19:26 <pgimeno> it is just a printf | gzip | uuencode
20:19:26 <fizzie> According to http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.html it just prints the correct string, does not use a loop.
20:20:19 <pgimeno> the day I see a true 99 Bottles of Beer in Malbolge...
20:20:21 <Keymaker> then there's "nothing special" :)
20:20:37 <pgimeno> it's fairly easy to make it spit whatever text
20:21:08 <pgimeno> you just rotate and op like crazy
20:22:12 <pgimeno> well, if you normalize the 99BoB you can see that it just performs about one rotate and two ops per character
20:22:54 <pgimeno> the canonical Malbolge interpreter has the "feature"(?) of the output being modulo 256
20:23:07 <pgimeno> which is quite against the spirit of Malbolge, btw
20:23:28 <pgimeno> it should be modulo 243 if the CPU has trinary pins
20:24:36 <pgimeno> if you prepare a memory area adequately, a rotate followed by an op or two gets the correct character
20:25:36 <pgimeno> that's theory, though; I haven't tried myself
20:26:31 <pgimeno> I'm now concentrated in getting the memory contents set up as I want them
20:26:39 <pgimeno> not so easy as printing characters
20:27:26 <pgimeno> at least I already got the main loop working (but as it is now, I need to preload the memory)
20:29:25 <Keymaker> about getting 111 to some cell
20:30:02 <Keymaker> the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended
20:30:27 <Keymaker> i'll try to make a shorter way
20:32:27 <pgimeno> there are three categories
20:32:43 <pgimeno> one: leave the pointer in the same cell
20:32:54 <pgimeno> two: don't leave the pointer in the same cell
20:33:14 <pgimeno> three: assume a modulo-256 interpreter where -1 = 255
20:33:37 <pgimeno> the code must start at position 0
20:33:40 <Keymaker> i'd outrule that category three immediately
20:34:00 <pgimeno> it allows far shorter programs
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20:34:24 <pgimeno> I got one in 13 instructions
20:34:59 <GregorR-L> Anybody want to clue me in on the convo?
20:35:05 <Keymaker> i'm strictly "non-wrapping array, non-wrapping cells, 8 bit cells" kind of brainfuck programmer
20:35:42 <Keymaker> well, don't know about that :)
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> about getting 111 to some cell
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> in this code i assumed
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> ++++[>++++<-]>[<+++++++>-]<-
20:37:06 <pgimeno> Keymaker: yours is exactly like mine in category one :)
20:38:20 <Keymaker> but remember i haven't seen your solution
20:38:52 <pgimeno> http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4
20:39:10 <pgimeno> click on "english version"
20:39:20 <pgimeno> that's the link for the spanish one
20:40:07 <pgimeno> hehe, sorry... I left that part untranslated
20:40:35 <pgimeno> the theoretical lower bound is 27 instructions
20:40:35 <Keymaker> maybe that was why i didn't find them
20:41:41 <pgimeno> http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4#Soluciones
20:42:01 <GregorR-L> The requested URL /Articulos/indexArticulo.php was not found on this server.
20:42:36 <GregorR-L> GAH, I've got to get back to this report X-D
20:42:43 <pgimeno> did you find them, Keymaker?
20:44:01 <Keymaker> so.. are they somewhere on that translated page?
20:44:25 <pgimeno> nope, they're just in the spanish page
20:44:40 <pgimeno> have you tried the second link?
20:45:23 <pgimeno> my Mozilla got a bit crazy
20:45:39 <pgimeno> after it loads, click on the URL bar and hit ENTER
20:46:32 <pgimeno> hm, let me see if I have it in my old page
20:48:44 <pgimeno> http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Buscaminas.html
20:51:40 <pgimeno> if you happen to be interested in the article, the English version is in http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Minesweeper.html (this one is complete)
20:56:31 * pgimeno admits with a red face that the Minesweeper Designer program is Windows-only
20:57:39 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: are you still interested in letting me host the 2L specs?
21:00:12 <pgimeno> could you perhaps elaborate it a bit more?
21:01:28 <GregorR-L> Umm, possibly. I could definitely fix the logic tree of doom ^_^
21:02:09 <pgimeno> wrap up a "distribution" if possible
21:03:13 <GregorR-L> Which would be pointless, since there's only one file ;)
21:05:35 <GregorR-L> ./configure ... checking for bfc: Sorry, the interpreter is written in BrainFuck, so you need a BrainFuck compiler to compile this!
21:06:02 <pgimeno> BF should be a standard POSIX tool
21:06:27 <pgimeno> after all who uses dc anyway?
21:06:29 <GregorR-L> All scripts that you would write in perl should instead be written in BF.
21:06:53 <pgimeno> yeah, much more programmer-friendly
21:07:52 <pgimeno> there's not a thousand ways of writing the same semantically equivalent statement
21:07:54 <GregorR-L> Oooooooooh, that's what I want to see. A regex mungler in BF. Has anybody written one?
21:08:18 <pgimeno> uh, regexps are hard to deal with
21:10:33 <GregorR-L> Which is why I want to see them in BF >:)
21:12:53 <GregorR-L> The h.* there is a regex expression.
21:13:04 <GregorR-L> It says "look for an h, then any character repeated any number of times
21:13:11 <GregorR-L> There are infinitely more complex ones :-P
21:13:34 <pgimeno> there's even one that validates dates
21:14:21 <fizzie> There are couple dozen-line ones that validate email addresses.
21:15:07 <pgimeno> well, I don't really mean that there's ONE, just that they have enough power to let that be made ;)
21:15:22 <pgimeno> indeed I've written my own date validator
21:15:45 <fizzie> They have just as much power as finite state automatons. :p (Well, perl regular expressions don't count, you can include arbitrary perl code in those.)
21:17:04 <GregorR-L> Oy. This is so difficult to explain ......
21:17:25 <fizzie> They aren't very readable, though. One of my perl scripts say $rest =~ /^((?:(?:$ex_nt|$ex_t|$ex_e)(?:\s+|$|(?=\|)))*)\s*(?:\||$)\s*(.*)$/ and it's not immediately obvious what that does.
21:17:57 <fizzie> I don't know. It's not obvious.
21:19:00 <Keymaker> :) hmm, what is finite sate automaton?
21:19:48 <pgimeno> a state machine, something like a Turing machine but unidirectional (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
21:21:46 <fizzie> Basically a Turing machine without the tape, yes. It has a set of states, and it does transitions between the states according to the input it receives, handling one character of input at a time.
21:22:10 <fizzie> (And either accepts or rejects the input, depending on what state it ends up in.)
21:24:16 <GregorR-L> This time it has a worthless tutorial 8-D
21:28:59 <pgimeno> "That's it! That's the whole language! Isn't that simple ... but not!"
21:30:28 <Keymaker> now.. make an interpreter, i wanna code something!
21:31:39 <pgimeno> TLO = Top location 0, right?
21:31:53 <GregorR-L> Tape location 0, yes. I should write that in.
21:33:10 <pgimeno> wasn't I/O being made by a * when the program was runing up/down?
21:33:41 <GregorR-L> If I wrote it otherwise, I'm an idiot 8-D
21:34:00 <pgimeno> well, I don't have the previous version and I don't remember :)
21:34:19 <pgimeno> in case of doubt it's me who's wrong :)
21:36:07 <pgimeno> hum, seems to me that it will cost too much traveling from TL0 to TL[whatever] for moderately long programs
21:37:00 <GregorR-L> You could use 0s and travel intelligently *shrugs*
21:37:29 <GregorR-L> 0: 1, 1: 1, 2: 0, 3: n, 4: n, ...., 50: 7
21:37:36 <GregorR-L> You're on 50, just loop backwards until you hit a 0
21:37:44 <GregorR-L> You'd want to put a 0 somewhere there so you could get back
21:37:56 <GregorR-L> And yes, it would cost too much as well 8-D
21:40:19 <pgimeno> furthermore, why left/right are mapped to up/down and raise/lower value are mapped to left/right?
21:40:38 <pgimeno> it would be very graphical if these matched
21:41:08 <GregorR-L> I was mentally imagining it the other way. I was seeing a vertical tape in my head, with values stretching left-right.
21:41:15 <pgimeno> if you operate going to the right, you move the pointer to the right
21:41:46 <GregorR-L> But it doesn't quite work the same as in BF, so my descriptions weren't helpful :-P
21:46:31 -!- Keymaker has set topic: Somebody make a cooler topic!.
21:51:47 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: Time to fight with BF! Learn FYB (http://www.befunge.org/fyb/) and challenge Gregor's logicex-1.fyb!.
21:59:36 <GregorR-L> It's for my Technical Writing class, so it's just some example situation from the book.
22:35:02 <GregorR-L> Nearly got my compiler working again.
22:43:59 <GregorR-L> I'm not sure what the problem is...
22:44:04 <GregorR-L> It makes C with a bunch of gotos X-D
22:56:25 <GregorR-L> Oy. I'll get back to that later :-P
22:56:49 <GregorR-L> Note: 2L is subject to change when I look closely at my Hello World program and find that I misimplemented it today.
23:00:59 <fizzie> My befunge compiler makes C with _a lot_ of gotos.
23:01:34 <fizzie> See http://befunge.org/~fis/out.c.txt for an example compilation of http://befunge.org/~fis/utm.html although I think I've advertised this thing here too much already.
23:17:42 <fizzie> The compiler is still rather buggy. Haven't had time to fix.
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