00:01:55 <calamari> uh oh.. phone call.. bbiaw. graue: thanks btw.. sorry if I came across a little sharp earlier
00:02:46 <graue> that's ok, you actually did not
00:03:53 <pgimeno> so graue, my concern is with language distributions rather than programs writtem in the languages; they're usually (mostly) zips/tarballs
00:04:39 <graue> most brainfuck implementations are single files
00:04:49 <graue> the modular SNUSP interpreter and tracer are each single files
00:04:57 <graue> the wierd implementations are each single .c files
00:05:57 <pgimeno> well, malbolge is in both zip and tarball; true too; false too IIRC; my own brainfuck debugger...
00:06:09 <graue> are they mostly small enough to be stored unrolled, like 4 or 5 files in a directory?
00:06:31 <kipple> why store them unrolled?
00:06:54 <pgimeno> I think that they should be distributed as the author pretended, i.e. full distros
00:07:21 <graue> if they're stored unrolled, you can check out the whole thing via svn and voila, you have a big esoteric language distribution ready to use
00:07:28 <graue> but maybe that's not practical
00:07:40 <kipple> hmm. that could be very practical
00:08:05 <pgimeno> in my view, preservation includes holding the original distributions
00:08:07 <kipple> but you should also have the option of downloading the archive.
00:08:38 <kipple> if you have to download each file individually it gets a bit tedious if there are many files
00:09:19 <malaprop> And presenting individual files is a modification of the original package, invoking clauses in licenes.
00:10:09 <graue> i doubt that the unmodified output of "tar xzvf whatever.tar.gz" really counts as a derivative work
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00:11:14 <malaprop> If it's different, it's a derivative.
00:11:44 <graue> most licenses would not care about that, provided all the files were there, and no new files
00:12:15 <pgimeno> I think I've seen GPLed languages
00:13:03 <graue> the GPL would be an example of a license for which this doesn't matter
00:14:05 <kipple> graue: if we don't use the mediawiki for file storage, how would upload work? web interface, or something else?
00:17:08 <graue> you would checkout svn, copy a file into your tree and svn add it
00:17:11 <graue> or just send it to me to do that
00:17:21 <kipple> hmm. that's not very user friendly
00:18:01 <graue> sending it to me is pretty user-friendly, no?
00:18:28 <pgimeno> depends on how friendly you are ;)
00:19:23 <kipple> I would prefer a solution that doesn't have to go through a middle man...
00:19:54 <kipple> but wont we have to ha file upload enabled in the wiki anyway to allow images?
00:20:04 <pgimeno> ftp might be the other alternative
00:20:33 <pgimeno> why am I asking... if there's svn there must be ftp
00:20:36 <graue> ftp isn't really user-friendly
00:21:11 <graue> much less than http, by which you can get the files now
00:21:33 <GregorR> I think the superior way to have a metadistribution of languages would be a bunch of .tar.gzs with a script to extract, compile and organize them all.
00:21:35 <pgimeno> i might disagree, kipple ;) but anyway many people are used to uploading their pages via ftp to the web server
00:21:37 <kipple> I meant ftp for upload. you could still get them by ftp
00:21:55 <GregorR> Umm, lesse ... an extracted archive is not a derivitive work because the copyright is over the code, not the archive ...
00:22:49 <GregorR> And as per file storage, my personal preference is within the wiki, seems kludgy to have to upload it via some other means.
00:22:51 <kipple> argh. get them by HTTP I meant
00:22:58 <graue> sftp with accounts may be available, anonymous ftp is not available (at least, i can't provide it)
00:23:06 <malaprop> I also vote for putting files in MediaWiki.
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00:23:28 <GregorR> I wasn't here, I was at work.
00:23:59 <pgimeno> malaprop: the objection to mediawiki is the lack of hierarchy
00:24:23 <kipple> but if the files are zips/tarballs, is that a problem? you only need to get one file
00:24:45 <kipple> which should be available on the appropriate wiki page
00:25:03 <graue> many files are not, though
00:25:20 <graue> language distributions, yes, sometimes; programs written in the languages, generally, no
00:25:33 <pgimeno> graue: I expect only (trusted) editors to upload files, not anonymous people; sftp is ok to me
00:25:39 <GregorR> I don't think there's any need for the FILES to be in a hierarchy - the hierarchy is in the design of the Wiki. They can just be sitting in one big directory, so long as the wiki makes their purposes obvious.
00:25:45 <kipple> I still don't see the big problem. The programs should be listed on the language page
00:26:12 <kipple> GregorR: Excactly what I think as well
00:26:48 <graue> kipple: I intended the articles to be like those on Wikipedia, overviews of the languages, with links to detailed examples, programs, and implementations in other places
00:27:06 <graue> I don't think a language article should be updated just because someone wrote a new program in that language
00:27:29 <kipple> ah. but I thought the point was to preserve content from other pages in case they disappear
00:27:45 <graue> that is the point of the files directory
00:27:56 <graue> with the wiki, we generally can't do that anyway, because the content from those other pages is not PD
00:27:58 <kipple> I see no reason to separate the two...
00:28:05 <calamari> graue: the files directory becomes useless if it is just a big lump of files
00:28:20 <graue> why? what's useless about that?
00:28:23 <kipple> not if you can conveniently link to them from wiki pages
00:29:16 <calamari> so the article would still be updated, with a link to the new file
00:29:26 <GregorR> Humm - if we want to properly preserve dead pages, I don't think doing that IN the wiki is possible...it would need to be a .zip of the page anyway.
00:29:38 <kipple> as for programs in esolangs, I think there should be a separate page for each language with a bunch of programs, where people can upload their own code
00:30:09 <kipple> gregor: yes, but the question is still where that zip should be stored ;)
00:30:49 <calamari> kipple: i agree.. otherwise people won't go through the trouble of begging for permission to upload each and every file
00:31:27 <kipple> yes. I fear that if you have to contact an admin to upload, most will not bother
00:31:49 <kipple> however, allowing everyone to upload whatever is problematic as well.... ;(
00:31:55 <calamari> it seems reasonable to allow people that have accounts to upload files
00:32:59 <calamari> it's not hard to sign up for an account.. took me less than 30 seconds :)
00:34:25 <kipple> I think the restrictions on upload should be on size and file type, not whether you are a user (as calamari said, that takes only 30 secs to fix, so there's not much security in that anyway)
00:35:10 <calamari> kipple: good point.. so they can block php, html, perl, etc
00:35:30 <calamari> if they have a legit program that is in php, it can be zipped
00:38:32 <malaprop> Why would you block PHP, HTML, perl?
00:38:54 <kipple> because the server would try to execute them
00:39:16 <kipple> though I think you can block that in the apache config
00:39:24 <malaprop> So use a .htaccess to serve them instead. Is not at all difficult.
00:40:56 <calamari> I know I don't have that level of control over my web hosting.. but maybe graue does?
00:41:35 <GregorR> Rather than having a blacklist there should be a whitelist ...
00:42:03 <GregorR> Only allow images (png, jpg, jpeg, gif), archives (zip, tar, tar.gz, tar.bz2), and docs (ps, pdf)
00:42:04 <kipple> that would create problems for source code in a lot of esolangs...
00:42:15 <GregorR> Anything that's not one of those formats can be .tar'd or .zip'd.
00:42:42 <GregorR> Mayhaps I should read the log *shrugs*
01:00:13 <pgimeno> it seems we won't have the files issue sorted out today
01:06:25 <GregorR> I know how we can all agree on how the files are set up.
01:06:37 <GregorR> Whatever kipple says next will officially be however the files are set up.
01:06:56 <GregorR> See, it's simple, just hold one person accountable 8-D
01:07:09 <GregorR> Nobody except that one poor schmuck feels bad if it doesn't work right 8-D
01:07:24 <GregorR> And yes, Giki is of course the solution to all problems :P
01:07:56 <malaprop> kipple: I'll give you a dollar if you say MediaWiki.
01:08:25 <malaprop> So now you have an excuse if it all goes terribly wrong -- you can say I blinded you with promises of riches.
01:08:28 <GregorR> Apparently two people now accept that as a method of determination, that's almost a majority ;)
01:09:01 <GregorR> kipple is now afraid to talk :P
01:09:30 <malaprop> "I'm honored" is not a way to set up files.
01:11:05 <kipple> OK. Here it comes. *drumrolls*
01:11:40 <kipple> BOS : http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/bf.html
01:13:02 <malaprop> kipple: Well, if you're volunteering to write the TCP/IP stack...
01:14:10 <GregorR> "I'm honored :D" is the method.
01:14:39 <GregorR> We must decode this, like a biblical phrase that has little meaning but in the hands of an idiot can mean that God hates Jews.
01:16:07 <kipple> I'm just the prophet. I'll leave interpretation to you guys....
01:16:43 <kipple> (or you could write an interpreter for it.... )
01:17:13 <lament> of course god hates jews
01:17:28 <lament> i'm surprised there's no god-hating-jews esoteric language yet
01:17:31 <lament> maybe i should write one
01:17:50 * GregorR shaves off a significant chunk of his nose, just-in-case.
01:18:11 <lament> i don't think nose is the right body part
01:18:28 <kipple> I considered writing a language once were the syntax is in the form of Commandments...
01:18:59 <kipple> Thou shalt write "Hello World!" to StdOut
01:19:00 <GregorR> I think a "begot" language would be fun.
01:19:12 <GregorR> The stack begot a register.
01:19:16 <GregorR> The register begot a value.
01:19:25 <GregorR> And the value lived for 300 years, and had 15 children.
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03:56:17 <GregorR> Using the "I'm honored :D" method?
03:56:50 <calamari> nope.. no floppies involved here :)
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04:29:27 <graue> does anyone have a copy of that aura language page (that was from nhi.netfirms.com/aura.html)?
04:29:54 <graue> the wayback machine doesn't have it anymore, and subversion somehow corrupted my saved copy
04:31:42 <calamari> I don't have it.. need to use the phone bbl
04:34:49 <graue> never mind, i figured it out
04:35:08 <graue> it seems to be a bug in my browser; the file was transferred gzipped and was not decoded
04:38:23 <GregorR-L> http://giki.sourceforge.net/index.php?title=subwindow%20rendering%20plugin#
04:46:06 <graue> Transmitting file data ....................svn: Commit failed (details follow):
04:46:06 <graue> svn: At least one property change failed; repository is unchanged
04:46:17 <graue> i hate esoteric revision control systems
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04:55:03 <graue> by the way, are you aware that you misspelled instantiate repeatedly in the ORK documentation?
04:55:17 <GregorR-L> It's too late now, since it's a built in function 8-D
04:55:36 <GregorR-L> So I'm just going to live in a world where instanCe translates to instanCiate.
04:55:45 <GregorR-L> Which would make infinitely more sense.
04:55:47 <graue> what's the mime type for a .tar.bz2?
04:56:02 <graue> instanciate looks wimpy
04:56:46 <GregorR-L> I don't think it would have a different mime type for .tar.bz2 vs .bz2 >_> <_<
04:59:06 <graue> i remember seeing application/x-gzipped-tar or something like that
04:59:39 <graue> oh well, all svn really needs to know is it's binary
05:00:35 <graue> yeah that should be what it thinks it is now
05:01:38 <graue> ORK is now available from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/
07:33:09 * GregorR-L just wrote a CamelCase plugin for Giki :)
07:58:25 <GregorR-L> But more because I want Giki to be pluginnable to basically anything anybody could ever want it to be.
07:58:54 <GregorR-L> Anyway, sleep for me, have work in the morning.
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14:12:18 <kipple> is that your opinion in the Wiki debate, or just a way of saying hello? ;)
14:12:33 <jix> just a way of saying hello ^^^
14:13:04 <jix> moin == mojen dach (plattdeutsch) == guten tag(german) == good day
14:13:47 <jix> i'm developing a new esoteric language.. and i tried to not reinvent an existent language
14:14:15 <CXI> that's always my problem
14:14:20 <kipple> yes, that is always hard to know
14:15:11 <jix> the syntax seems to be like any 2d language.. but the concept is a different one
14:15:50 <CXI> so easy to accidentally write another BF, another PATH or another Beatnik
14:16:25 <jix> is there any language that needs 4 threads for anding 2 bits ?
14:16:56 <jix> not system threads... but it behaves like 3 threads
14:17:35 <jix> one thread not's input a one not's input b one or's not(a) and not(b) and one not's the result of the or
14:17:45 <kipple> once you go multithreaded the chance of reinventing another drops drastically
14:18:01 <CXI> yeah, there aren't terribly many threaded esolangs
14:18:27 <kipple> and even fewer that forces you to use threads
14:18:43 <CXI> that's just mean :P
14:19:21 <CXI> I had an idea ages ago about a multithreaded path variant
14:19:57 <jix> i think an optimized compiler may get as fast as an bf interpreter..
14:20:02 <GregorR> On the way to work today, I think I'll write a Giki plugin to parse esoteric languages. Just to be mean :p
14:20:19 <CXI> I should write an esoteric meta-language
14:20:41 <GregorR> jix: So, is the function of operators overloaded by thread# or something like that?
14:20:54 <jix> GregorR: you know digital circuits ?
14:21:12 <GregorR> To a very, very limited degree 8-D
14:21:16 <GregorR> I understand and, or, not, etc.
14:21:18 <jix> you can build anything with just 2 gates.. OR and NOT or AND and NOT
14:21:43 <jix> and every gate processes at every time it's input.. thus every gate is a thread
14:21:52 <jix> and that's my language
14:22:06 <GregorR> Hmm, that's very strange, I'll have to check that out
14:22:20 <CXI> actually, I just remembered an idea I had ages ago
14:22:32 <CXI> a language based entirely on mathematics, with no if statements
14:22:47 <CXI> it's hard to explain exactly what I mean, but lemme find a demonstration
14:22:58 <jix> i'm at 13 line of codes..^^ but it's weekend so i have plenty of time...
14:23:09 <CXI> not based on functionality exactly
14:23:53 <CXI> diff = (targetangle -_radaraim) % 360
14:23:54 <CXI> radarright( diff + 360 * ((diff % 181 - diff) % 180) )
14:24:02 <kipple> jix: so do you have an example of syntax?
14:24:08 <CXI> that was from some robot battle code I wrote ages ago
14:24:26 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/lIodw042.html
14:24:54 <jix> that is a "standardlib" implementing: buffer , 0 , 1 , & , ^
14:25:28 <kipple> well, that certainly looks esoteric :)
14:25:43 <jix> oh it has operator overloading.. you can define a 3-input or ...
14:26:26 <jix> the problem is turing completeness.. with 2 instructions it is as turing complete as BF with limited memory
14:26:53 <jix> with a 3rd binary stack instructions it is turing complete (because i know how to implement a BF interpreter)
14:30:19 <CXI> if anyone's trying to puzzle out that radar code, it rotates left or right based on whether the amount to rotate is over 180 or not
14:32:51 <CXI> if diff <= 180 then the whole statement will be diff + (diff - diff) % 180 * 360, which is just diff + 0... if diff = 182 then (diff % 181 - diff) is 1 - diff, so -181 % 180 is -1, so it becomes (diff - 360)
14:33:06 <CXI> in essence replacing an if statement with a multiply-by-zero
14:34:09 <CXI> I think (but can't be sure) that you should be able to do something similar for any number, and thus make a totally ifless language based on the modulus operator
14:34:32 <CXI> loops, though, I'm not sure about
14:35:27 <CXI> yeah, but that feels a little too much like a functional language
14:35:45 <jix> how to terminate recursion without ifs ?
14:36:27 <CXI> hmm, maybe I could make a couple of special variables
14:36:31 <jix> and we all know how to unroll recursion with loops and queues.. don't we ;)
14:36:52 <CXI> I'd need to for I/O anyway
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15:00:44 <kipple> jix: your language certainly looks intersting.
15:01:20 * kipple likes languages where you can construct everything from a few atoms
15:01:35 <CXI> mm, feels very elegant
15:01:49 <kipple> let us know when you have something close to a spec...
15:02:51 <jix> the interpreter is going to be the spec ^^^
15:04:36 <kipple> jix: about these ^^^ you use. What's their meaning? Is this some IRC slang I'm not familiar with?
15:04:37 <jix> hmmm thats a new bug in xchat-aqua if i type ^^ and press return it prints ^^^
15:05:28 <jix> and ^^ is something like ;)
15:08:24 <CXI> ^^ is an anime smiley
15:09:19 <CXI> hey, a smiley based language would be briefly funny
15:09:28 <jix> there is one
15:09:50 <jix> oh i forgot that i'm away sry ..
15:09:51 <kipple> thought about that myself, but there is one alrady
15:10:00 <CXI> otherwise a damn fine plan
15:28:08 <CXI> ascii flowchart based language
15:28:09 <CXI> that'd be neat
15:33:10 <kipple> I did start something similar in Powerpoint a while back
15:33:42 <kipple> after all: why do we always have to limit ourselves to text files :)
15:34:05 <CXI> I was considering doing it graphically, but that'd be tricky
15:34:26 <CXI> plus you could probably represent more complex ideas more easily with graphics
15:34:51 <kipple> If I get around to do it again, I would probably use OpenOffice presentation files
15:35:33 <jix> why not post-script compatible files
15:36:00 <kipple> because I'm not familiar with post-script
15:36:27 <jix> it's very easy..but it's a programming language on it's own
15:36:59 <kipple> but one of the main points was to avoid writing code
15:37:01 <CXI> hopefully without godel complexity :P
15:38:47 <jix> kipple: hmm yes.. piet is code less
15:39:03 <kipple> yes. I know. It's the only one I know about
15:39:16 <kipple> (except un-esoteric langs of course)
15:40:16 <kipple> the presentation file format is nice, because it is divided into pages. The first page would hold the main program, and the other pages could hold modules
16:12:16 <CXI> making it image based would be fun
16:12:18 <CXI> png programs :D
16:12:56 <kipple> yeah. the world needs more non-ascii languages...
16:21:00 <jix> hmm i think i need to write a spec for my language.. because no one can read my code (it is written in ruby an it's not easy to write write only code in ruby..)
16:22:49 <kipple> a spec is always nice :)
16:25:08 <jix> and i'm going to write the spec in german and my own esoteric (non programming) language..
16:26:12 <jix> and there is no spec for my language.. so have fun learning german ;)
16:26:41 <jix> english is so much easier than german
16:27:50 <jix> hmm.. sometimes i think german is an esoteric language
16:29:35 <kipple> hah. well, it has an excessively complicated syntax...
16:29:54 <CXI> german is simple if you speak my kind of german
16:30:04 <CXI> which is just 'das' followed by whatever you would say in english
16:30:49 <jix> and the "methods" get spelled different if they have different arguments .. and the arguments get spelled different if they have different methods and....
16:31:59 <jix> it's like having strcmp(a,b) stringcmp{A "Hallo"} strcomp[``Hallo'',$0b] ;)
16:32:59 <kipple> jix: are you german, btw?
16:33:01 <jix> oh and a funny german sentence: die, die die , die die diesel tanks angezündet haben, gefangen haben, sind schlau. it's valid syntax
16:33:40 <kipple> ouch. what does it mean?
16:33:56 <kipple> my german is not good enough for that kind of sentences...
16:34:34 <jix> it's: those who catched those who ...
16:35:12 <jix> 5 die's isn't that common but 3 are
16:35:48 <jix> and there are so many irregular things in the german language...
16:36:23 <kipple> funny norwegian sentence which, contrary to yours I believe, is used a lot: er det det det er?
16:36:50 <jix> and what does it mean?
16:37:19 <kipple> and the answer could be (if positive): det er det det er.
16:37:31 <CXI> having the same word for that, what and it is awesome :D
16:37:50 <CXI> but I guess what is just the interrogative case version of it
16:37:58 <jix> in german: ist es das was es ist answer: es ist das was es ist
16:38:34 <kipple> well, it can't really be directly translated to what, but it's as close as it gets
16:38:34 <jix> you know inform ?
16:39:12 <jix> the text-adventure language ?
16:39:35 <jix> the documentation for the german lib must be 10 times the size of the english one
16:40:55 <jix> declination(??) of nouns is fun...
16:40:55 <kipple> it could be interesting to make an esolang based on german grammar (like jix's examples)
16:41:03 <pgimeno> in spanish there's a sentence saying: "Cmo cmo como? Como como como"
16:41:18 <malaprop> That's because the English word "variable" in German is "Gebudenkraftworkendomesserschmidt".
16:41:36 <CXI> kraftwork? :o
16:41:37 <jix> malaprop: loool
16:41:51 <jix> variable is.. Variable
16:42:20 <CXI> in CXI german it's 'das variable'
16:42:21 <kipple> pgimeno: what does it mean?
16:42:31 <jix> CXI: Die Variable
16:42:39 <jix> variable is masculine
16:42:41 <CXI> you're thinking of real german :P
16:42:48 <jix> feminine ^^
16:42:53 <CXI> or, as I would put it
16:42:56 <CXI> das real german :P
16:43:02 <jix> das echte deutsch
16:43:06 <pgimeno> kipple: it's like "Why [do you ask that] how do I eat? I eat as I eat" (actually there's one omission that is a little forced; it should start with "Cmo que cmo como?"
16:43:51 <jix> der CXI kann wohl kein wort deutsch
16:43:55 <kipple> jix: shouldn't it be: das echte Deutsch ?
16:44:16 <jix> kipple: capitalization sucks ...
16:44:28 <CXI> jix; mein hund ist kaput
16:44:38 <jix> CXI: your dog is broken ?
16:44:43 <CXI> he certainly is
16:45:03 <CXI> it's funny, I told him I could get him fixed, but he didn't like the idea
16:45:12 <jix> but in german you wouldn't say a dog is kaputt..
16:45:27 <jix> you would say verletzt or krank but not kaputt
16:45:51 <jix> only things can be kaputt.. not animals or humans
16:45:57 <CXI> no, no, I wanted it to literally translate to broken :D
16:46:29 <CXI> that way I could make my awesome "fixed" double-entendre
16:46:31 <jix> there is a german language.. you know applescript ?
16:46:39 <jix> in some time there was a german and french applescript
16:47:16 <kipple> I think there was a time when some thought it a good idea to translate programming languages
16:47:44 <kipple> I seem to remember having seen portugese pascal somewhere
16:47:46 <jix> wenn der wert größer als 4 ist dann beepe == if the value is bigger than 4 then beep == valid apple script
16:48:34 <kipple> hmm. my IRC client doesn't seem to handle german letters...
16:48:46 <jix> maybe it's because i use utf-8
16:48:55 <jix> "how up do high knee" ^^
16:49:48 <jix> how up do high knee == hau ab du heini == go away you idiot... it's just funny if you know english and german
16:50:23 <jix> ok back to decl
17:08:30 <jix> ...ping... anyone here ?
17:19:39 <jix> the decl parser is very difficult to implement
17:25:51 <jix> what os do you (all) use ?
17:28:28 <CXI> windows, but not for any good reason
17:28:46 <CXI> well, mainly because it's what I know, and linux is absolutely horrible to use if you don't know it
17:28:48 <GregorR> Mandr{ake,iva} to be specific.
17:29:03 <kipple> Windows mainly, but I also have a debian box
17:29:08 <CXI> that's not strigma
17:29:14 <CXI> er, stigma
17:29:18 <CXI> it's based on my own experiences
17:30:03 <CXI> I *can* run linux, in fact I've done so on different occasions, but it's a pain because if something goes wrong, fixing it requires knowing exactly the right arcane sequence of commands and config files
17:30:26 <GregorR> Xandros, Mandr{ake,iva}, Ubuntu, even Fedora have robust graphical configuration systems.
17:30:57 <CXI> Mandriva is the worst name ever :P
17:31:06 <CXI> but yeah, I had issues with it too
17:31:08 <GregorR> It's Mandrake + Connectiva
17:31:20 <GregorR> Anyway, I'm not actually here, I'm at work, so *disappears*
17:33:06 <jix> i'm happy with osx.. but sometimes i need windows (for windows only apps (fpga programming.. the linux tools aren't free (the last time i checked))) and my servers are running on debian(and if something goes wrong you have a problem)
17:34:40 <pgimeno> my machine is running debian and if something goes wrong I have a problem
17:35:00 <pgimeno> but then at work I have Windows and if something goes wrong I have a problem
17:35:18 <CXI> my machine's running win2k and if something goes wrong I can probably fix it in ten minutes to an hour depending on what it is
17:35:39 <malaprop> All my machines run Linux and they don't have problems.
17:35:47 <CXI> a linux problem I could probably fix in comparable time provided I had access to the right documentation (ie internet), and it wasn't a really obscure problem that nobody else has ever had
17:36:05 <CXI> unfortunately I seem to attract the latter kind of problem :/
17:36:54 <jix> on windows i can fix problems as fast as an average windows user.. on debian i need 4 times the time a linux guru would need and on osx.. hmm what went wrong.. hmm i got kernel panics with an additional kernel extension so i removed it.. no other big problems
17:37:51 <jix> oh wait.. i wrote a perl script to batch delete files.. but.. executed it in the wrong terminal window.. (root and in the wrong directory)
17:38:40 <pgimeno> in debian most of the things that can go wrong are not the system's fault, but that's how FOSS works
17:38:40 <jix> my /System/ directory was somewhat.. empty but a reinstall system keep user settings did it...
17:40:21 <pgimeno> in some sense you accept the bugs if you go the FOSS way
17:40:52 <pgimeno> (and... well, the mainteinance pain too)
17:42:20 <pgimeno> every coder has his own idea on how things should work, and you have to know sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts and lots of other things
17:42:29 <jix> with osx i don't want to use plain darwin (because if something goes wrong i have the same situation as with debian) but with osx on top it's a lot easier
18:02:15 <lament> ewww sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts
18:03:20 <lament> some windows problems can be pretty bad
18:03:50 <lament> it took me like a day to get rid of spyware my friend got
18:04:07 <lament> now what's the last time you had a problem like that on a unix...
18:07:31 <pgimeno> oh hehe, windows is pretty complex when you go deeper than simple user level, especially with everything surrounding IE
18:15:57 <kipple> but you don't need to use IE just because you use windows...
18:21:54 <lament> my friend didn't use IE...
18:22:12 <lament> the spyware affected firefox equally well
18:58:10 <GregorR> No spyware high-horses - GNU/Linux is just as susceptible to spyware as Windows is, so long as they're not in viral form. It's not very virus susceptible but it's still idiot-user susceptible.
19:00:19 <lament> i don't think my friend's an idiot :)
19:00:41 <lament> well... she uses firefox, at least, and doesn't open email from strangers
19:01:28 <lament> man that thing was a mean piece of work
19:01:32 <GregorR> People package spyware in downloaded programs. You run them, you get spyware. There's no reason that that wouldn't work in ANY operating system, the only way to block it would be with the even worse big-brother trusted computing.
19:02:09 * GregorR goes back to his job at Intel, a major supporter of trusted computing :P
19:02:14 <lament> it prevented the antispyware programs from running, it changed all links to security/spyware websites, it somehow modified google search results
19:02:49 <lament> (not in safe mode, thankfully. But still that's rather impressive)
19:03:46 <lament> and all of that in any browser
19:04:13 <kipple> that's actually quite cool (in an evil way)
19:05:00 <kipple> now if only those who create such stuff would use their skills for sensible things instead
19:05:15 <kipple> like esoteric programming languages, for instance... :)
19:06:24 <lament> somebody should write a spyware esolang
19:06:46 <lament> with all your keystrokes as input and random popups as output
19:06:59 <jix> a HQ9+ like thing ^^ STVCK Spy Trojan Virus Crash Keylog
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19:10:03 <jix> moin calamari
19:19:01 <jix> i have about 100 lines of code for decl (without empty lines)
19:23:11 <kipple> 100 lines of decl code, or 100 lines of decl implementation in ruby?
19:30:22 <jix> 100 lines of implementation... it loads all included files and splits the code into the modules
19:50:54 <calamari> latest version of EsoShell is online: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/ features: command line parsing ('"\), i/o redirection, ctrl-c=break
19:51:13 <calamari> should be pretty good at this point :)
19:55:03 <pgimeno> so, "echo a > b" does no longer print "a > b"? :)
19:55:51 <calamari> maybe you need to reload? could be cached
19:56:34 <calamari> echo a > b produces no output (as expected). cat b gives: a
19:57:39 <pgimeno> do you happen about any way to force mozilla to reload which does not imply clearing the cache?
19:58:31 <calamari> no, sorry.. for testing I had to disable my cache and close/open firefox every time I want to retest
19:59:00 <calamari> you can clear just the cached paged, though.. shouldn't lose much with that
20:02:14 <calamari> oh cool, just realized I restructured my code in such a way that allowing >> is easier to do :)
20:02:39 <pgimeno> I haven't found how to refresh
20:03:37 <jix> >> doesn't work here
20:03:42 <calamari> pgimeno: here is how I had to do it before I disabled my cache: 1) close all browser windows, 2) open fresh browser, clear the cache 3) try the page
20:03:58 <pgimeno> restarting mozilla is a pain for me
20:04:28 <jix> calamari: echo a >> b echo b >> b cat b gives just b
20:04:48 <calamari> jix: that's because I haven't implemented >> yet
20:05:48 <calamari> you should be able to use > and < just fine, though
20:06:28 <calamari> < is harder to test right now.. only pause and cat really use input
20:21:44 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
20:34:39 <jix> np: The Flaming Sideburns - Drive On [ Sky Pilots ]
21:08:15 -!- calamari has joined.
21:23:25 <calamari> jix: >> should be implemented now :)
21:23:44 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:24:44 <fizzie> Hadn't remembered to rejoin here, it seems.
21:26:35 <fizzie> My girlfriend (accidentally, she claims) kicked the reset switch of my router/firewall box, sesefras, at 2005-05-20. Perhaps I should make this automagically connect to freenode too.
21:34:01 <calamari> oops, looks like I had left some debugging statements on.. fixed :)
21:38:23 <GregorR> Is it just me or is meme.b9.com having issues?
21:53:10 -!- wooby has joined.
22:05:52 <calamari> primitive bf interpreter on EsoShell (just wanted to get something up!)
22:07:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
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22:13:04 <Keymaker> might be a good time to read the logs..
22:23:51 <pgimeno> I don't think you're able to read them all in a row
22:26:47 <pgimeno> did you install MediaWiki?
22:31:02 <Keymaker> rgh.. way too lazy to read it all.. could someone summary in one word what is going on? :)
22:31:05 <kipple> hi Keymaker. been away?
22:31:21 <wooby> pgimeno: not yet... had some weird problem getting mysql working
22:31:41 <kipple> have you been reading the mailinglist?
22:32:45 <kipple> ok. then you might want to read this: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html
22:33:53 <Keymaker> i'm too lazy to read anything :)
22:34:42 <kipple> don't know when you last were here, but in short we're trying to make an alternative to wikipedia, as a place to store info about esolangs
22:36:15 <Keymaker> nice to see well coordinated (?) work :)
22:36:34 <kipple> the consensus seems to be on using mediawiki, but the files section has not been decided yet
22:37:26 <kipple> here's the site: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/
22:39:32 <wooby> kipple: will that be the main site?
22:39:43 <jix> i think it should be possible to attach to every page an spec, an tutorial, many examples.. like Brainfuck Brainfuck:Tutorial Brainfuck:Specs Brainfuck:Examples
22:40:40 <Keymaker> this project seems really good, it think it's good that these language can get archived
22:40:46 <wooby> kipple: if so, i'd be glad to point esolangs.org at it
22:41:07 <kipple> I think that's a good idea.
22:45:49 <pgimeno> I'm taking a rest for today, I've got many things a bit outdated
22:46:22 <pgimeno> (I mean a rest about the wiki etc)
22:46:51 <kipple> rest in peace, pgimeno ;)
22:48:12 <kipple> try writing a Malbolge quine. That should relax you
22:48:52 <Keymaker> i think i'll try some brainfuck
22:48:53 <jix> or write a HQ9++ quine with 2 Q's in the sourcecode
22:49:51 <pgimeno> more seriously, I'd like to write the Malbolge entry in the wiki
22:50:18 <pgimeno> as soon as I'm done with other priorities
22:50:36 <jix> and i'm going to write a decl entry as soon as decl is finished
22:50:50 <jix> my new esolang
22:51:24 <pgimeno> and now /me moves on instead of chit-chatting all the time
22:51:29 <jix> Keymaker: it needs 4 'threads' to AND 2 bits
22:53:15 <jix> they arn't real threads
22:53:42 <Keymaker> i have no idea what that word means
22:54:02 <jix> hm.. it's easier to explain with a working interpreter and some examples
22:54:05 <kipple> Keymaker: btw, I finally have the linux binary version of Kipple up on the web site if your still interested
22:55:28 <Keymaker> i'll switch to linux, i'll be back soon.
22:55:30 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").
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22:59:06 <kipple> that was fast. was that a reboot?
23:00:53 <kipple> glad you liked the new look. just switching from Times to Arial does wonders....
23:01:49 <kipple> since I first applied a style sheet, I couldn't just use the same old blue/purple links.
23:03:17 <Keymaker> rhhhh can't get it working. i wish i could use this better
23:03:35 <Keymaker> "cannot open shared object file.."
23:03:56 <Keymaker> probably i'm missing some stuff
23:04:01 <kipple> what linux are you running?
23:04:26 <kipple> and here I thought it didn't depend on anything :(
23:04:38 <Keymaker> probably i'm just missing some stuff
23:06:09 <kipple> does it say which object file it cannot find?
23:06:50 <Keymaker> btw, what was the compiling line you told me back then?
23:06:55 <kipple> though I thought it wouldn't depend on that
23:06:58 <Keymaker> i'll try to compile the source
23:07:11 <Keymaker> (probably can't get that working either ;))
23:07:15 <kipple> if you don't have libgcj I don't think you'll have much luck
23:08:04 <kipple> gcj --main=Kipple Kipple.jar -o kipple
23:09:25 <Keymaker> for now on i will just program brainfuck on paper
23:10:52 <fizzie> kipple; you could try compiling a binary with "-static" perhaps.
23:11:07 <kipple> is that the option I'm looking for?
23:11:38 <fizzie> I'm not sure what option you are looking for, but it should link it statically and thusly include the necessary libraries in the executable.
23:11:57 <kipple> that's exactly what I was browsing the docs for...
23:12:12 <jix> i'm trying to calculate prime numbers using kipple..
23:12:55 <kipple> I got a lot of warnings, and a 4 megabyte executable, but it seems to work
23:14:08 <kipple> same place, same file (just much bigger)
23:14:32 <fizzie> "Now with even more fun."
23:14:34 <kipple> jix: great! always nice to hear people using it :D
23:15:43 <kipple> warning: Using '<function>' in statically linked applications requires at runtime
23:15:43 <kipple> the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
23:16:47 <kipple> replace <function> with dlopen, getpwuid_r, gethostbyaddr_r and gethostbyname_r
23:17:38 <kipple> anyway, it looks like it will still require glibc. But thats much better than requiring libgcj!
23:17:45 <fizzie> Heh. Well, with any luck your glibc versions do match.
23:18:24 <jix> arg..?? dividing 2 numbers using kipple
23:18:41 <kipple> hehe. the joys of esoteric progamming :)
23:19:06 <fizzie> sed is almost like an esoteric language, too.
23:19:34 <Keymaker> w00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000t
23:19:49 <kipple> what gcc version do you have?
23:21:13 <kipple> though the compiled version ran twice as slow as the regular on my computer
23:21:17 <fizzie> G'night, people. (0122am localtime.)
23:22:55 <Keymaker> btw; that your bfpretty.b is neat, kipple
23:23:16 <Keymaker> i've planned a bit similar idea, that i will do sometime
23:23:41 <Keymaker> but it will make code like ,[-[-[++++]]] look like
23:23:58 <Keymaker> (hopefully there is two spaces)
23:24:06 <kipple> ah, the opposite of bfpretty?
23:24:25 <kipple> you could call it bfugly then :D :D
23:24:43 <kipple> actually, that would be REALLY nice
23:25:30 <kipple> maybe even the mandelbrot program will be understandable then...
23:26:19 <kipple> nah, you're probably right
23:26:28 <Keymaker> naturally the program won't be able to do anything intelligent like keep [>+<-] on one line or so
23:26:38 <Keymaker> it would, too bad, break that on several lines
23:27:07 <kipple> I take you are writing it in BF then?
23:27:22 <Keymaker> i thought i said that somewhere
23:27:52 <Keymaker> well, i forgot to say that i'm writing it in bf
23:28:33 <kipple> btw, could you run ls -l /lib/libc.so.* on your linux box, and see which libc-version you get?
23:28:36 <jix> kipple: your language is insane
23:28:54 <jix> programming language
23:29:01 <kipple> yeah, I understood that
23:29:17 <Keymaker> i don't know what to read there
23:29:21 <jix> i JUST want to divide 2 numbers.. it's 10x as hard as with bf
23:30:11 <Keymaker> i read it 'divide number with two'
23:31:24 <kipple> well, the next version of Kipple will allow code modules, so then you can write a division stack once, and then reuse it...
23:31:27 <jix> ok until a is 0 i subtract 1 from a and b
23:32:06 <jix> i don't have to divide just check if 2 values are dividable.. (modulo)