00:07:19 <kipple> Yay! I got a working 99 bottles of beer in Chef :)
00:07:50 <kipple> now the code only needs a facelift
00:13:38 <GregorR-L> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, cookin' up some bottles-o-beer.
00:15:18 <kipple> and it has more than 3 times the code lines of the ORK version...
00:24:36 <kipple> hmm. there seems to be some serious performance issues...
00:25:02 <kipple> 5 verses takes 11 secs. 10 verses takes 35s, and 25 verses takes 2m35s!!!
00:42:28 <GregorR-L> It really ought to take about .01secs :P
00:46:56 <kipple> accoriding to my calculations 99 should take about 40 mins :D
00:48:27 <kipple> I plotted the times for 5, 10, 25 and 50 verses into my calculator, and had it find a function for it. the number of secs is: 0.3x^2-1.66x+16.1 (where x is number of verses)
00:50:29 <kipple> sorry. slight miscalculation. should take 47 minutes
00:51:22 <kipple> and it doesn't produce any output until it's done
00:52:02 <kipple> well, it's a very slow computer, but still....
00:52:29 <kipple> I wonder if it's the interpreter, or if I've done something really stupid in the code...
00:52:56 <GregorR-L> while (1) { (interpret-interpret); sleep(5); }
00:53:22 <kipple> that would not account for a quadratic increase in time
00:53:42 <GregorR-L> for (i = 0; ; i++) { (interpret); sleep(i); }
00:54:45 <kipple> woo! 10 verses in 1.2 secs!
01:23:08 <kipple> I think it is the sub-recipes that's the problem. Each sub-recipe call results in all the stacks being copied every time
01:51:04 <kipple> yay. I got 99 verses down to 20 secs!!
01:51:21 <kipple> Warning: sub-recipes in Chef are EXTREMELY inefficient
01:55:44 <GregorR> Next time I'm doing intensive Chef programs I'll remember that ;)
01:56:47 <kipple> a performance increase with a factor of 135 is quite a lot :D
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06:16:20 <graue_> i see, from the log, apparently the esolang wiki was down this morning?
06:16:24 <graue_> what was wrong with it?
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12:31:12 <CXI> ((x % y) - x) % (1 - y)
12:31:32 <CXI> ((x % y) - x) / (1 - y)
12:31:45 <CXI> returns 1 if x >= y and 0 otherwise
12:36:07 <pgimeno> can't you count with MAX() and MIN() functions?
12:36:32 <fizzie> I doubt that. x = 1000, y = 10: ((x % y) - x) = ((1000 % 10) - 1000) = -1000; (1 - y) = (1 - 10) = -9; -1000/-9 = 111. Perhaps it would work with /(1-x).
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12:42:39 <CXI> hmm *checks maths again*
12:43:28 <CXI> oh, right, I messed something up with the mod, it would seem
12:43:47 <CXI> only works for a certain range
12:44:09 <CXI> (and I meant just -y, not 1-y)
12:44:45 <pgimeno> then it'd be the same as (x - (x%y)) / y
12:45:05 <pgimeno> is it integer division? are the variables integer?
12:46:24 <pgimeno> is the division defined for a denominator of 0?
12:48:10 <kipple> graue: about the down time: Don't know what was wrong. I got a "Could not locate remote server" error. But it didn't last long
12:48:39 <pgimeno> probably a server mainteinance; that happens also in my server
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14:05:04 <kipple> so, hows that esolang of your coming along, jix?
14:05:25 <kipple> was it decl it was called?
14:08:20 <jix> i'm still working on the parser
14:45:53 <graue> what's the crazy math for, CXI?
14:46:19 <CXI> well, I've been idly wondering if it's possible to make a language based on maths with no conditions
14:46:55 <CXI> but first I have to work out how to replace things with maths
14:47:03 <graue> have you seen SMITH?
14:47:30 <graue> it has no if() or while(), and makes you simulate both by copying instructions forward in memory
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15:07:57 <Keymaker> jix: how do i use that interpreter?
15:27:29 <kipple> keymaker: cipple filename.k
15:28:03 <kipple> though if the program doesn't use input you should use cipple filename.k < /dev/null
15:28:41 <kipple> otherwise it will block for input (which you can stop with CTRL-D)
15:29:26 <kipple> that's an unfortunate effect of the kipple design, that the interpreter has to wait for input, even though the program doesn't use it :(
15:30:58 <kipple> hmm. perhaps the interpreter could analyze the code, and check if input is used...
15:31:18 <Keymaker> by the way, is 1>b<1>b<1 valid kipple?
15:31:41 <Keymaker> so it would finally have 1 1 1 in b stack?
15:32:00 <kipple> no it would have 1 1 1 1 in the b stack
16:05:40 <pgimeno> kipple: how does input work?
16:06:08 <kipple> all input is pushed onto the i stack BEFORE the program is executed
16:06:42 <kipple> input while the program is running is not possible (at least not in the first version of Kipple)
16:06:48 <pgimeno> can't that be implemented as lazy input?
16:07:18 <pgimeno> "lazy" is a term meaning that the actual action is delayed just until needed
16:07:52 <Keymaker> but since the input is asked before, that isn't really delaying it until needed :p
16:08:05 <kipple> hmm. not that easy I think
16:08:16 <pgimeno> whenever a program tries to use the input stack for the first time, the input will be read
16:09:00 <pgimeno> that will change the behaviour, though
16:09:11 <kipple> the problem is that the input stack might be used for other purposes (it is not exclusively for input)
16:09:36 <pgimeno> well, when the first character coming from input is to be used
16:10:32 <graue> why don't you not block for a keypress until an operation is done that needs to know whether more input is left?
16:11:04 <pgimeno> kipple: imagine that you keep a count of elements on the 'i' stack
16:11:34 <pgimeno> when it's about to become negative for the first time, you push all input
16:11:38 <malaprop> it's be weird for the interpreter to pause for input when code tries to push onto the input stack.
16:12:17 <pgimeno> I think it's not good for writing interactive programs
16:13:15 <kipple> as it is now it is perfectly legal to pop from an empty stack (will return 0). so you can easily check if the program has recieved any input. this will not work if a pop will result in a getchar()
16:13:35 <kipple> anyway, if you want interactive programs, use something else :) Like Kipple 05 for instance...
16:14:59 <pgimeno> I don't see the problem; if all input is pushed at the beginning of the program, how is that different from what I've described?
16:15:51 <pgimeno> if you pop from the 'i' stack and there's input, you don't receive a 0
16:16:36 <graue> why would the interpreter have to pause for input when code pushes on the input stack?
16:16:38 <pgimeno> similarly, if you pop from the 'i' stack in 'lazy input' mode, then all input is gathered and pushed and you don't receive a 0 either
16:16:50 <kipple> as far as I understood your solution, if you pop the i stack and it's empty, then you would trigger a getchar(), no?
16:17:07 <pgimeno> it would trigger the whole input stream to be read
16:17:49 <kipple> then it would behave differently than the spec says. that's the problem...
16:18:06 <kipple> of course, it would work, it would just be different
16:18:13 * Keymaker goes to buy hamburger with fries.
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16:18:47 <graue> you could have a -pedantic switch, which no one would use, for following the spec completely
16:18:49 <pgimeno> different in what sense? the only difference I see is that some output can be shown before performing the actual input, but it's otherwise indistinguishable
16:19:28 <pgimeno> that's the whole principle of "lazy" operation which is implemented in so many places
16:19:44 <kipple> the difference being that you cannot pop the i stack, and find out if any input was passed to the program, because that would trigger input to be read
16:20:16 <pgimeno> yeah, and if no input was passed to the program then that input won't be read anyway
16:20:54 <pgimeno> the idea is just delaying the action until it's needed
16:21:52 <pgimeno> that way you don't perform input unless it's needed
16:22:10 <pgimeno> which was what you suggested anyway
16:24:12 <kipple> consider the following program: it checks to see if there is any input by popping the i stack, and checking for 0. if 0 then print "please provide input!" and terminates. else it performs some operations on the input
16:24:35 <kipple> how would you do that with lazy input? (am I missing something?)
16:25:24 <pgimeno> instead of reading the input at the beginning of the program, you do that when the program does the pop and before returning the result
16:25:31 <malaprop> print "please provide inpurt: ", pop input stack
16:26:06 <kipple> but then it would print "pleas provide input" every time, no?
16:26:31 <malaprop> It would want input every time, no?
16:26:45 <pgimeno> not if there's input because it will be pushed at that moment and return the first byte of the input
16:27:21 <kipple> malaprop: yes, but only prompt for it if it doesn't get any at execution
16:29:04 <pgimeno> kipple: in other words, it's the implementation of the pop operation the one which reads the input: if the instruction is a pop, and the stack is 'i', and the number of elements is 0, then read the input (if any) and return the first byte (or 0 if none); otherwise perform as any other stack pop
16:30:08 <malaprop> pgimeno: And, if stack is empty and no input is given, the stack stays empty and future calls don't try to get input.
16:31:05 <pgimeno> and if it's used as any other stack but it never is popped when empty, no input will be read
16:31:22 <pgimeno> s/never is popped/is never popped/
16:32:23 <kipple> it might work, though I still have a suspicion it would change the behavior of some programs
16:33:14 <pgimeno> lazy techniques are used quite often; e.g. some text editors load fonts when you press the key that needs them
16:34:14 <pgimeno> the only difference from the user's point of view is that some output can be shown before any input is read
16:34:26 <pgimeno> that would only make a difference in the console
16:35:14 <kipple> no. no output is shown before the program is finished anyway :)
16:35:56 <kipple> the interpreter itself has no concept of I/O
16:36:26 <pgimeno> then it would make absolutely no difference
16:36:40 <pgimeno> oh, and there's java "just-in-time" compiling which is the same concept
16:37:17 <kipple> the difference would be that you can not check whether input was provided, because that would trigger input to be provided ;)
16:38:05 <malaprop> That's not so different from now, where every run triggers input to be provided.
16:38:19 <kipple> unless you use the -n switch
16:38:34 <kipple> which causes input to be ignored
16:38:36 <pgimeno> well, it must behave exactly the same as is currently done at the beginning of the program
16:39:36 <kipple> yes. I will think more on this, and consider it for Kipple 05
16:40:05 <kipple> thanks for the ideas guys :)
16:41:27 <pgimeno> actually it can be implemented in any current kipple compiler
16:45:24 <graue> how many stacks does a language need to be Turing-complete?
16:47:18 <graue> so a single deque would be enough, since it can be treated as two stacks, right?
16:48:53 <fizzie> Actually a single queue (not a deque) should suffice.
16:49:13 <fizzie> According to some googling there is a working representation of two stacks in a single queue.
16:51:44 <pgimeno> btw, infinite minesweeper is turing-complete
16:53:29 <pgimeno> it'd be nice to use minesweeper to perform calculations :)
16:56:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.
16:58:21 <graue> a deque-based language would be boring anyway
16:59:26 <pgimeno> well, the Turing tape is expressed as cells
17:00:49 <pgimeno> http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/R.W.Kaye/minesw/miesw.htm#infinite%20minesweeper
17:01:47 <pgimeno> http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/R.W.Kaye/minesw/minesw.htm#infinite%20minesweeper
17:08:46 <fizzie> Heh, that's quite far from ordinary minesweeper, but intresting still.
17:11:46 <pgimeno> not that far in my opinion but yes, quite interesting :)
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17:28:31 <Keymaker2> "According to some googling there is a working representation of two stacks in a single queue."
17:30:41 <fizzie> Well, http://jackson.cs.miami.edu/~burt/papers/1993.1/Saq-JAIIO-2.ps has a proof of the queue-automata-is-equivalent-to-turing-machine thing, but it doesn't (unless I misread, I just briefly looked at it) use two-stacks-in-a-queue, that one was a CS assignment or something.
17:48:15 <graue> i think i just got a great esolang idea
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17:52:08 <kipple> graue: well, tell us already! :)
17:56:05 <graue> when i'm sure it works
17:56:40 <sp3tt> lol. I write 99 bottles in Chef, come on here, and it's been done a day before XD
17:57:46 <sp3tt> I wrote the interpreter too :)
17:57:59 <sp3tt> http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/Beer.chef
17:58:12 <kipple> you've written a new interpreter?
17:58:39 <sp3tt> It can't handle stir and serve with yet though.
17:58:57 <sp3tt> I am a bit unsure of how to implement serve with.
17:59:00 <kipple> that's my biggest issue with the old one. It so extremely SLOW on serve with
17:59:28 <sp3tt> If the sous-chef changes the mixing bowls, does that affect the main chef?
17:59:59 <sp3tt> But the sous-chef's mixing bowls are passed to the main-chef?
18:00:01 <kipple> but the contents of the sous chef's bowl #1 is added to the main bowl #1 IIRC
18:00:56 <sp3tt> "When the auxiliary recipe is finished, the ingredients in its first mixing bowl are placed in the same order into the calling chef's first mixing bowl."
18:01:14 <kipple> the problem is the copying of ALL the stacks each time a sous chef is called
18:01:49 <sp3tt> I was thinking of making the execute() function return the mixing bowls...
18:02:01 <kipple> well, if you have read the logs here you've probably seen my performance issues :)
18:02:30 <sp3tt> Yes.... 47 minutes for 99 bottles XD
18:02:50 <kipple> it's on an old 187 MHz, but still...
18:03:41 <kipple> 47minutes to 20 secs is definately the best optimization I've ever done!
18:04:32 <sp3tt> How did you do that?
18:04:40 <kipple> put all code into the main recipe
18:04:56 <kipple> and fired all the sous chefs
18:05:11 <sp3tt> They deserved that!
18:06:50 <Keymaker2> i should take a better look at chef
18:06:55 <Keymaker2> seems like an interesting language
18:07:07 <kipple> anyway, your version doesn't work in the perl interpreter
18:07:19 <kipple> Keymaker: it's actually a bit like Kipple :)
18:08:36 <kipple> though a tad more verbose...
18:10:08 <sp3tt> 't work in the perl interpreter...
18:10:11 <sp3tt> Hmm, it can't find the loop.
18:10:42 <kipple> strange. but the perl interpreter is buggy
18:10:52 <sp3tt> Ah... it is case-sensitive.
18:11:03 <sp3tt> Change Drinked to drinked.
18:12:03 <kipple> runs in 20 secs (same as mine)
18:12:36 <sp3tt> Runs almost instantly on my machine, but then again it is a 3.8GHz >_>
18:12:55 <kipple> but it says "1 bottles" in the 98th verse :P
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18:45:12 <jix> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39200357,00.htm ??
18:46:11 <jix> i'm going to write a language that tries to use as many m$ patents as possible
18:46:58 <jix> it's objects are stored as xml... a program is an object.. i make havy use of the isNot operator.. (.. searching for m$ patents)
18:53:29 <sp3tt> lol... Tried to run the fibonacci program from chef's website.
18:53:29 <sp3tt> Maximum recursion depth exceeded XD
19:06:52 <kipple> sp3tt: I've finally updated by beer.chef with proper ingredient names. here it is: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/code/beer.chef
19:08:13 <kipple> btw, have you submitted your to the 99 bottles of beer page?
19:16:52 <fizzie> "1 level tablespoon extract" is a 'proper ingredient'? Is that just generic "extract", or is it one "level" of the elusive tablespoon extract?
19:18:05 <kipple> 1 is the value. level tablespoon is the type declaration (int) and extract is variable name
19:18:34 <fizzie> I know (I've looked at the spec), but I don't think "extract" is a sensible food ingredient.
19:18:43 <fizzie> "Any unspecified extract will do."
19:18:52 <kipple> well, it's not, but it looks good in the recipe
19:19:22 <kipple> I can have statements like "Stir the extract until boiled."
19:20:10 <kipple> I didn't expect anyone to actually try to make beer with this recipe, you know :)
19:26:45 <sp3tt> What about an esoteric language based on brainfuck, but inputs are md5:ed? That would be so evil XD
19:27:23 <sp3tt> Two hexadecimal digits for every brainfuck operation.
19:29:36 <sp3tt> So to actually write a program, you'd have to brute-force an md5-hash.
19:36:19 <jix> 0 g ale yeast ^^
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20:29:33 <graue> here is a rough draft of a spec for my new, as yet unnamed esolang: http://illegal.coffeestops.net:3703/sort.txt
20:29:47 <graue> it is presently unnamed, and likely contains many flaws
20:30:28 <graue> i am going to the bank; i challenge any interested persons to resolve ambiguities and contradictions in the document (if any exist) and implement an interpreter or compiler before i return
20:41:01 <fizzie> Well, there's an obvious bug: "If the string is non-empty, [sensible action]. If an expression evaluates to a non-empty string, it is deleted and removed from the list."
20:45:52 <fizzie> Also the operator table lists ~ as concatenation, ? as regular-expression-matching, but the description below reads "The regular expression matcher, ~, --"
21:57:32 <kipple> graue: interesting concept :)
22:01:33 <fizzie> No interpreters, sorry.
22:02:28 <graue> i just got US$10,000 and i was going to wire it to anyone who wrote an interpreter before i got back
22:05:56 <kipple> quoted from 99-bottles-of-beer.net: "What the fuck is going on here? In fact we got two Chef submissons within a couple of hours. As soon as I have some time on my hands, I will add support for showing several examples for each language cuz I don't want to be the one who decides which is the better one etc. For now I activated the first submission." :D
22:18:57 <pgimeno> graue: oh, I wrote the interpreter before you came but I was afk when you arrived :)
22:19:28 <pgimeno> hehe, no but it would have been nice to get these 10,000 ;)
22:26:32 <jix> kipple: i made a kipple syntax coloring mode for SubEthaEdit
22:26:58 <kipple> never heard about it. but cool :)
22:27:28 <jix> it's osx only.. but i'm using it and i like syntax coloring
22:27:35 <kipple> as always, I'm happy to put Kipple related files on the web site
22:27:50 <jix> www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/seemodes/Kipple.mode.zip
22:30:01 <jix> my dns server is down again...
22:35:30 <kipple> hmm. weird idea: how about a language based on IKEA assembly manuals?
22:36:05 <kipple> (for those not familiar with IKEA manuals: they do not contain a single written word. only symbols!)
22:37:27 <jix> and a program must have a name of a swedish word ^^
22:38:58 <kipple> ha!. as a norwegian that would not be espacially esoteric for me, though :)
22:39:12 <kipple> hmm. espacially. is that a new word?
22:39:34 <jix> no idea, but it doesn't sound swedish ^^
22:40:03 <kipple> no. that would be srskilt
22:40:22 <fizzie> We see enough swedish words here in finland too for them to be non-esoteric. Picture-based languages are less common. Would you have to draw the picutres yourself for the interpreter to interpret?
22:41:03 <jix> just the NAME of the program has to be a swedish word...
22:41:27 <kipple> ok. so the interpreter has to include a swedish dictionary. interesting :)
22:41:54 <malaprop> kipple: And a Swedish stemmer, eh?
22:42:12 <jix> markow chain test.. not 100% perfect but.. it ensures that the word sounds swedish
22:42:42 <fizzie> Stemmers remove the inflection from words.
22:43:12 <fizzie> Wahh, I want a working stemmer for Finnish, the snowball one isn't very good at all.
22:43:20 <malaprop> kipple: Does conjucations -- for English, would take "hat" and spit out "hats", take "complete" and spit out "completeness", "completion", etc.
22:43:22 <kipple> inflection is also not in my english vocabulary. sorry
22:46:08 <kipple> In norwegian we use the norwegian word for bending :) I.e. bending a verb
22:46:27 <fizzie> The snowball stemmer thinks 'innostua', 'innostuessaan', 'innostuimme', 'innostuisivat', 'innostuksissaan', 'innostuneena', 'innostunut' are all different words (they're not).
22:46:41 <fizzie> Heh, it's "taivuttaa" (to bend) in finnish too.
22:47:10 <kipple> well, finnish grammar was never meant to be easy, now was it?
22:47:44 <kipple> I assume electronic spell checkers have even more trouble with finnish than with norwegian
22:48:43 <jix> finish ingredients declarations are very long compared to the other ones
22:49:22 <kipple> heh. I know only one finnish sentence: "Ei saa peittaa"
22:49:45 <kipple> written on almost every electical oven in Norway :)
22:50:06 <fizzie> At least it should be. I haven't examined the ovens in Norway. (Only been there once.)
22:50:28 <jix> ümläütß rulz
22:50:58 <kipple> those characters didn't come throgh to me.. what were they?
22:51:20 <pgimeno> hm, UTF8 ought to be standard in this network
22:51:42 <jix> /charset utf-8 on xchat
22:51:46 <kipple> I got fizzie's umlauts though
22:52:10 <pgimeno> jix: I didn't know it was changeable on-the-fly. Thanks dude!
22:52:21 <fizzie> Mine were probably latin-1 (or 15), since that (sadly) seems to be the de-facto irc standard.
22:52:27 <jix> hehe i didn't know it for a long time
22:52:35 <fizzie> Er, latin-9. ISO-8859-15. Not latin-15.
22:52:46 <jix> fizzie: but not on freenode
22:52:46 <kipple> so, do you guys get these?
22:52:51 <jix> kipple: yes
22:52:53 <GregorR> jix: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/exa/logicex-2.fyb
22:53:03 <jix> AHHH GregorR strikes back
22:53:21 <fizzie> Hm... does freenode have an official policy on this?
22:54:18 <kipple> my client (Trillian) doesn't seem to have any charset settings :(
22:54:45 <jix> GregorR: arghh.. now i can't sleep this night until i write a better program
22:54:48 <pgimeno> windows still has some trouble with utf-8 support
22:56:30 <jix> gnight anyway ...
22:57:04 <jix> GregorR: i start writing the "hill" tomorrow.. i still need a name
22:57:30 <GregorR> If you expect me to be good at naming ... hah, it is to laugh ;)
22:58:37 <jix> Produktionsstätten ?
22:59:22 <jix> just a random word of a german newspaper article
22:59:41 <jix> but it really doesn't fit
23:00:50 <jix> nah...night
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23:19:28 <GregorR> Updated the FYB scoreboard with all of jix's stuff, and retired a few old ones of my own: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/exa/report
23:28:12 <graue> i don't understand how 'nothing' can beat any of the other ones
23:36:48 <GregorR> Very stupid programs (read: mangler) can end up modifying their own program very easily if they're not careful. While nothing is doing, well, nothing, mangler is mangling it until it creates a defect, defects itself, then slaughters its own program.
23:37:34 <pgimeno> in other words, commits suicide
23:38:30 <pgimeno> very much like the guy attacking 127.0.0.1
23:38:31 <GregorR> I just created nothing to show why mangler = bad :)
23:50:15 <graue> how's that conditional jump in malbolge going, pgimeno?
23:50:34 <pgimeno> graue: absolutely paralized
23:51:48 <pgimeno> the problem is that my web is before that and it's going very slowly
23:52:16 <graue> that is unfortunate
23:54:52 <pgimeno> well, including a malbolge section implied including my esolangs article, which implied updating it, which implied updating the others; at the same time some guy sent me new contents for the Mahjongg solver, and it's gone almost out of control