< 1117929916 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've designed turing-complete language with only 5 instructions < 1117929932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do tell. < 1117929940 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait.. i can reduce it by one < 1117929990 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's name is XUML < 1117930005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a start. < 1117930028 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has 4 instructions: X = flip bit value < 1117930047 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U = User interact (takes argument) < 1117930081 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1117930120 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L = Loop (takes argument) < 1117930126 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M = Move (takes argument) < 1117930128 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, a language starting with X. at last :D < 1117930155 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just noticed my syntax definition is wrong < 1117930162 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yeah, something like that... there are still a few books that looked promising at the library that i didn't check out; i'll keep looking... < 1117930387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i won't be at all surprised if nobody ever researched this seriously < 1117930433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainstream CS seems to look at these things from a very different perspective < 1117930464 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring interactive IO and such < 1117930819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems the basic concepts CS operates with (in this regards) are not exactly the basic concepts relevant to esolangers < 1117930824 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*regad < 1117930826 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*regard :) < 1117931074 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new language, hooray, fanfare etc: http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/qdeql/ < 1117931150 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's turing complete? < 1117931205 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh i don't want to write XUML programms < 1117931219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and did you forget about reenqueuing the 0 after a \ ?) < 1117931224 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, i haven't proved it, but it intuitively seems so < 1117931232 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1117931244 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the byte is zero during a \ it just gets lost < 1117931245 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to extend the queue size ? < 1117931253 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's dynamic < 1117931265 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starts out empty, then you add to it < 1117931304 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ lets you enlarge and shrink the queue :) < 1117931311 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does - do on an empty queue < 1117931320 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enqueues 255 < 1117931324 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1117931325 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the boolfuck code: [[+]+] is LLLXXLXX in XUML < 1117931334 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it says, "dequeueing produces 0 if the queue is empty," so that's how it works < 1117931361 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is Loop(Flip Flip Loop(Flip) Flip) < 1117931368 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix, i like what i'm hearing < 1117931371 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep up the good work < 1117931425 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to double flip (XX) because you cant place a subloop at the start of the parent loop < 1117931474 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is insane < 1117931494 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't wanted to add control characters < 1117931520 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i meant insane in a good way < 1117931525 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1117931673 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UXXUUXXXUXXUUXX prints a newline < 1117931865 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if it's the last outputting command < 1117932413 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auto converted (BF=>BOOF=>XUML) programs are going to be so fucked long < 1117932603 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> is MMLXX and < is MLX < 1117932645 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1117932907 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to add a category for languages where the source is not a text file, like Piet. But what to name it? non-text based languages? doesn't sound too good in my ears... < 1117932923 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-ascii ? < 1117932938 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would exclude some text-based langs < 1117932945 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :include I mean < 1117932946 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1117933053 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages whose input is not in the form of a character stream is perhaps a bit verbose ;) < 1117933630 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-textual? < 1117933718 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's better :) < 1117933882 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the categories: do we really need categories for deterministic or one-dimentional? < 1117933900 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't we just assume they are, unless otherwise categorized? < 1117933928 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++[>++++>++++++++++>+++++++<<<-]>>>++.<+.+++++++..+++.<++++.<+++[>----<-]>.>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<<+++[>++++<-]>++.<++++++++++. < 1117933936 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is autoconverted 14kb < 1117933983 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it outputs the same thing as the boolfuck=>xuml ULXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXXULXXULXXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXXULXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXXULXULXULXULXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXXULXULXXULXXULXXULXULXULXULXXULXXULXULXULXXULXXULXXULX < 1117934009 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the xuml handwritten version is even shorter < 1117934069 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. made some.. mistake in the autoconverter < 1117934074 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: Deterministic should indeed be the default, but one-dimensional is already the default < 1117934122 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that in http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization there's not a category, meaning it's default < 1117934124 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. that's what you've meant by not adding links for things like one-dimensional and Implemented? < 1117934134 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117934143 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1117934174 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperative and deterministic may be default too < 1117934181 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, i don't think 2D langs should be a subcategory og multi-D langs < 1117934186 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think Implemented should be a category, though < 1117934197 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's going to want to search for Unimplemented languages? they're no fun < 1117934203 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are a lot of them < 1117934214 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why not, kipple? makes sense to me < 1117934223 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody looking for somehting to implement perhaps? < 1117934231 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the benefit < 1117934238 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, but Implemented are generally more interesting, i think < 1117934244 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1117934265 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see the drawback? i don't < 1117934287 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multi-D-but-not-2D languages are special and can be easily found by looking in the base multi-D category < 1117934291 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the problem with that? < 1117934292 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I separated 2D and Multi = (3+)D, for the record < 1117934301 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :separated how? < 1117934303 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just adds clutter to the multi-D page < 1117934316 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't, it only adds one category to that page < 1117934361 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's fine with me that way < 1117934364 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, true. lets keep it that way then < 1117934364 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuffing all the 2D langs on there would add more clutter < 1117934468 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. I'm changing deterministic to default (removing category) < 1117934505 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anybody disagree? < 1117934560 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1117934564 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was editing < 1117934585 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. let me know when you're done then < 1117934682 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1117934796 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, why is there an extra colon in the categories on that page? ( [[:Category:Nondeterministic]]) < 1117934822 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise that page would also be added to the category < 1117935596 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what counts as Implemented? < 1117935613 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least an implementation exists < 1117935615 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if only some features work, or the newest version of the spec isn't implemented, or the implementation is really buggy? < 1117935645 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, suppose the only Brainfuck interpreter supported +-<>., and [] support was "coming soon", implemented or no? < 1117935656 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's worth some notes in the text < 1117935672 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say implemented < 1117935689 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too, plus explain the situation in the text < 1117935693 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuzzy logic! < 1117935695 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117935936 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we need both Usability unknown and Unknown computational class? < 1117935962 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Malbolge is Usability unknown and Finite state automata < 1117936035 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey! bitxtreme is a non-textual language, right? < 1117936061 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the source code binary? < 1117936088 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1117936132 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now that category has at two languages! :D < 1117936140 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Choon belongs there < 1117936147 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, no it doesn't < 1117936153 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source code only, right? < 1117936162 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117936201 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it is a bit special < 1117936271 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's ascii < 1117936287 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, iso8859-1 < 1117936290 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. I was talking about the output < 1117936325 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about bitxtreme < 1117936327 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no zero-dimensional category for NULL to go in? < 1117936348 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think one single language would qualify for a category < 1117936370 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do! < 1117936380 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then go ahead :) < 1117936413 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. so bitxtreme is text based after all? darn < 1117936445 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone needs to make a new zero-dimensional language somehow, i guess < 1117936449 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should we categorize language level? is low / high enough? < 1117936454 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not like such a thing is possible < 1117936464 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homespring and ZOMBIE would be "very high" < 1117936533 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a scale then: turing tarpit - low - medium - high - high as a kite ;) < 1117936561 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1117936575 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm going to sleep, you have fun categorizing articles < 1117936586 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe you can add Qdeql to the wiki if you feel like it < 1117936590 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1117936593 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nite < 1117936594 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1117936672 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not for categorizing language level < 1117936679 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1117936712 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, on second thought maybe it helps looking for "powerful" languages < 1117936757 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think high/low should be enough < 1117936763 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, var'aQ is not still there < 1117936774 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it var'aq ? < 1117936790 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION adds a stub
< 1117936813 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think we should have a category for strongly metaphored languages (Chef, Shakespeare, ZOMBIE) < 1117936826 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1117936840 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZOMBIE looks pretty regular in my opinion < 1117936850 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, there are a few more < 1117936853 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, perhaps not ZOMBIE < 1117936869 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it should be called Themed languages < 1117936879 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf2xuml conversion is so baaad < 1117936892 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolfuck2xuml is ok < 1117936912 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad as in slow, or bad as in does not work? < 1117936930 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad as in output is very long < 1117936968 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-] auto-converted is a 500 byte XUML code < 1117936988 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck < 1117936995 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need an optimizing compiler < 1117937008 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117937026 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the bad part is the bf2boolfuck < 1117937074 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-] is in boolfuck (not autoconverted) [+]>[+]>[+]>[+]>[+]>[+]>[+]>[+]> and autoconft to XUML LXMLXLXMLXLXMLXLXMLXLXMLXLXMLXLXMLXLXMLX < 1117937826 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'nite < 1117937998 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Banned from network" < 1117938338 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1117958399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1117958400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1117963244 0 :kipple!~kipple@163.80-202-100.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1117966104 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1117967259 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.247.148.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117967393 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1117967397 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.247.148.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117967463 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1117967466 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.247.148.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117967577 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"If you're reading this, it's probably x-chat's fault." < 1117967821 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what client CXI was using? < 1117967874 0 :CXI!Sanity@dialup-210.88.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1117967970 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xchat on WinDOS. < 1117968535 0 :sp3tt!~chatzilla@lite-148-133.umenet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117969270 0 :sp3tt_!~chatzilla@cust-148-133.elhandel.umeaenergi.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1117969782 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1117970986 0 :jix!jix@p5489F5C2.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117971266 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1117972710 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XUML parser done < 1117974838 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XUML? < 1117974847 0 :J|x!jix@p5489AC5E.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117974861 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1117974885 0 :J|x!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jix < 1117974932 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XUML interptreter done.. < 1117975121 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is XUML? < 1117975203 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my tc language with only 4 instructions < 1117975208 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X U M and L < 1117975248 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no other syntax elements (no () no [] no white-spaces no {}...) < 1117975424 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1117979071 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pages GregorR
< 1117979453 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow autoconverted bf => XUML hello world is 12 kb < 1117979750 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XLLLLMXXULXMMLXX is the first handwritten XUML program < 1117979764 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an endless loop printing U:s < 1117979833 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U = 01010101b < 1117979866 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1117979911 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but xuml is little endian (because i want boolfuck => xuml conversion) so i need to start with a 1 < 1117979913 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handling bits one by one is awkward < 1117979930 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't need + and - just X < 1117979992 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only justifying the 12 Kb < 1117980211 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not autoconverted it is much shorter < 1117980430 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLMXULXULXULXXUXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXXUXUXXULXULXXUXXULXULXULXXUXUXXULXULXXUXXULXULXXUXXULXXUXXULXULXULXULXMMLXX < 1117980439 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints XUML\nXUML\nXUML\n.... < 1117980572 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm in france next week. no internet.. no #esoteric :'( ;) < 1117980628 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cu < 1117980631 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Banned from network" < 1117982088 0 :graue!~piecrust@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117982181 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi graue < 1117982273 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any clue of what kind of storage does [] use? < 1117982838 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean [] a.k.a. Brackets < 1117983428 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it say on the website? < 1117983553 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too brief < 1117983762 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have an interpreter or spec or anything? < 1117983820 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117983829 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that should tell you < 1117983830 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreter < 1117983833 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no spec < 1117983833 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone needs to add clunk: http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie2/download/clunk/ < 1117984280 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1117984284 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of shrdlu < 1117984835 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blagh, need to actually write this newsreader < 1117985006 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo, dodgy html parsing is a winner < 1117985311 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newsreader written in what? Brainfuck? < 1117985353 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117985358 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse, VB < 1117985553 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: how do you rename a page? does it have to be deleted and the new one created? < 1117986009 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Movepage < 1117986085 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1117986148 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, then what? < 1117986206 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You have not specified a target page or user to perform this function on." < 1117986228 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1117986233 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&target=pagename < 1117986297 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a little silly - in theory there should be a link somewhere in the interface to do that < 1117986325 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it < 1117986354 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not worth creating a redirection etc. < 1117986378 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now I don't know how to delete a page < 1117986568 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to be an admin first < 1117986612 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave that up to graue then (page: [[Category:Language]]) < 1117986685 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: you may be interested in this sed adder: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/addsed-r.txt < 1117986738 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does your language work by replacing strings via regexps? < 1117986844 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yeah < 1117986899 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, then it should be straightforward to adapt the adder to your language < 1117986935 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it depends... :D < 1117986961 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, it actually stores the regexes in a list, goes through the list and rewinds every time it makes a replacement < 1117987006 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, gtg, ttyl < 1117987012 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty, seeya < 1117990093 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re < 1117990152 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waves
< 1117990155 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does your lang admit \1, \2 etc.? < 1117990170 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... though it uses $1 $2 instead at the moment < 1117990177 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll change it when I get around to cleaning up the code < 1117990185 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1117990223 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now I'm bashing away at this newsreader < 1117990303 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say it rewinds, do you mean that it starts by the first RE of the list after each replacement? < 1117990313 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117990352 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like a functional language with only one function :P < 1117990357 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's important then (for my adder) < 1117990433 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the string's initial state? < 1117990444 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it user-given? < 1117990450 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117990478 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though incidentally you'd get stuck in a loop between s/2/11/ and s/11/2/ < 1117990501 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the stop condition? < 1117990513 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no patterns match :P < 1117990529 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I mention there's no /g flag? :P < 1117990538 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck :) < 1117990578 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's easy to fix to adapt to these needs < 1117991087 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G does what? < 1117991158 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a "s/regexp/replacement/g" sed statement, it replaces all occurences (as opposed to the first one when scanned from left to right) < 1117991233 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1117991245 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to read the 2P specs. < 1117991285 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, I'll write one up quick-like < 1117991400 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sorta putting it off because I wanted to know whether it could actually be useful < 1117991411 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1117991485 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though keep in mind the interpreter won't actually match the spec until I fix it :P < 1117991582 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful as in "turing complete" or useful as in "easy to use"? I can tell you in advance that it's TC < 1117991593 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well then that's cool < 1117991596 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1117991597 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to use, hell no :P < 1117991609 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1117991664 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd better specify which REs are admitted < 1117991676 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if possible, don't restrict them to be Perl REs, please < 1117991684 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't < 1117991708 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*phew* < 1117991716 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking maybe gnu regex < 1117991728 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is perl regex that different? < 1117991735 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Posix REs would be good < 1117991750 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX EREs that is < 1117991761 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are quite a few extensions < 1117991787 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is supporting them in non-Perl interpreters < 1117991991 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1117992088 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are \1 \2 \3 called anyway? back-replacements? < 1117992157 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back references IIRC < 1117992180 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only when used within a RE < 1117992184 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117992200 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. not in the RHS < 1117992204 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1117992221 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe sed has another name < 1117992235 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I'll just define them in the spec as back-references :P < 1117992329 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The replacement may contain the special character & to refer to that portion of the patter space which matched, and the special escapes \1 through \9 to refer to the corresponding matching sub-expressions in the regexp." (from the sed man page) < 1117992540 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/patter/pattern/ < 1117992578 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Shutting Down < 1117992697 0 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. JOIN :#esoteric < 1117992697 0 :irc.freenode.net!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o ChanServ < 1117993362 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, actually < 1117993372 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be possible to write a fair few things in it < 1117993384 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only because there's no way to distinguish what the user initially entered and what you're returning < 1117993415 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, writing something to add the letter s to any inputted string < 1117993449 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and /(.*)/(.*)s/ would just loop forever < 1117993452 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1117993462 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean /(.*)/\1s/ < 1117993484 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers making the interpreter add '>' to the front of the input
< 1117993797 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, but then you could never have a program that outputs a > < 1117993805 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the start of the output, anyway < 1117993888 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can escape the input string somehow at the start < 1117993973 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. s/\\/\\\\/g then s/^/\\i/ < 1117994154 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is if the program was meant to output a string with \i at the start < 1117994213 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that'd be matched by the expression you used to check for ^\i and the program would loop infinitely < 1117994216 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unescape it at the end; the regexps should then write \\i at the start instead of \i < 1117994244 0 :sp3tt!~chatzilla@lite-148-133.umenet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117994256 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... hmm, yeah, that works < 1117994271 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t, badge with brainfuck program on ordered :D < 1117994354 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also badges with a gnu, one that says "Proud filesharer", and of course one that says "How about a nice cup of stfu?". XD < 1117994368 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, classy < 1117994373 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the brainfuck program? < 1117994389 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It prints "Your brain is fucked!" < 1117994400 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like it'd be pretty long < 1117994440 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not with some clever multiplication... < 1117994442 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.>++[<+++++++++++>-]<.++++++.---.>++++++++[<---------->-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<++.>++[<++++++++>-]<.>++[<-------->-]<-.++++++++.+++++.>++++++++[<---------->-]<++.>++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<+.>++[<+++++>-]<.>++++++++[<---------->-]<---.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++++>-]<.>++[<--------->-]<.++++++++.------.-.>++++++++[<-------->-]<---. < 1117994457 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like this: http://www.knapp.nu/ShowBadge.aspx?id=2549463 < 1117994492 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, not so bad, I guess < 1117994524 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be here within 14 days :) < 1117994541 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ordered one with the firefox logo on too. < 1117995139 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about writing that in qdeql? < 1117995179 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"brb" < 1117995435 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qdegl? < 1117995986 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117996079 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puzzlet: around? < 1117996090 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behind you < 1117996109 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117996155 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a note that in http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Aheui in the links section there's a link redirecting to an "obsolete" page < 1117996169 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i forgot < 1117996185 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even forgot to update those in Korean pages < 1117996270 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what each button will do in the JS interpreter
< 1117996315 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plans to make an extra frontend in English
< 1117996361 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be very nice for non-korean speaking people :) < 1117996479 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it could say "press here to download and install Windows" without me noticing < 1117996548 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1117996559 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any of the buttons < 1117996802 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now i get it < 1117996902 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fears the wiki has gone category-crazy :)
< 1117996924 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference between {{Category:whatever}} and [[Category:whatever]] ? < 1117996930 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wiki goes wikipediastic < 1117996973 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that {{Category:whatever}} is a valid syntax < 1117996976 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{{}} is a template < 1117996979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[]] is a link < 1117996984 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1117996987 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1117996987 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so {{}} brings in the text from another article < 1117996992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1117996998 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it will work that way < 1117997157 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i think a lot of the categories are really bad ideas < 1117997191 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, low-level and high-level (how do you define that with respect to so many different programming styles?), and almost all of the other categories should be subcategories of "languages" < 1117997264 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does a subcategory help with respect to a category? < 1117997279 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any there's going to need something like [[Category:Languages by storage types]] and so on < 1117997287 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means we don't have to put [[category:languages]] on practically every single page < 1117997318 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: because the list will do the complete list of languages < 1117997332 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wp has "article which should be a category" category... that way a topic can start life as an article, then eventually become a category when it's clear that it needs to be... maybe that model would work better than trying to categorize everything immediately < 1117997364 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea < 1117997479 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that categories are a good way of getting an idea of what a language is like to start with < 1117997537 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it imperative? is it non-deterministic? etc. < 1117997594 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that could belong to the description but using categories helps in making a cross-reference list at the same time < 1117997710 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the inclusion of most or all categories as subcategories of the Languages one, I don't know how to list e.g. all languages that way < 1117997831 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coredumpage < 1117997852 0 :coredumpage!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CXI < 1117998122 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, currently Turing tarpits is a subcategory of Turing complete, but you can't examine a list of all Turing-complete languages that includes Turing tarpits without entering each subcategory < 1117998159 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way around that? < 1117998204 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[List of Turing tarpits]]? < 1117998255 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would require manual editing of just another list < 1117998328 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding a language to a subcategory does not automatically add it to its parent category < 1117998664 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't examine a list of all Turing-complete languages that includes Turing tarpits without entering the subcategory < 1117998671 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it that hard to enter a subcategory? < 1117998690 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the problem < 1117998739 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all the current categories are subcategories of the Languages category, you can't have a list of Languages without entering every category < 1117998752 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you can, by going to esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list < 1117998807 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the use of that page which can't be done with a Languages category? < 1117998834 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't require global modifications < 1117998843 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a category, you have to edit every page in the category < 1117998909 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's a good non-esoteric high-level language i should learn? objective-c? java? ruby? erlang? < 1117999039 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... define "good" < 1117999087 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't think any of those are good? < 1117999139 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"good for what" is the question < 1117999156 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java is quite more popular than the rest < 1117999184 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know if popularity is meaningful for you < 1117999249 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, good for programming in < 1117999265 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care if it's buzzword-compliant or not, if that's what you mean < 1117999305 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to do BOP in a strongly-hyped language < 1117999390 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good speed-wise, ease-wise, self-explanatory-wise...? do you require it to be scriptable? have good string handling? etc. < 1117999520 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what languages do you prefer? < 1117999523 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: depends why you want to learn it (sort of like pgimeno said)... i can only say which non-eso languages i personally admire < 1117999526 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang and lua < 1117999592 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's cool about erlang? < 1117999602 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like ruby < 1117999614 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :receiving messages based on patterns < 1117999629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, imo < 1117999654 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it (can it be) relatively fast? (not necessarily C-speed, but usable for some real-time stuff) < 1117999675 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: it's billed as a "soft real-time" language (fwiw) < 1117999724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed is, hmm, ok, in my experience... certainly acceptable for the things i use it for < 1117999733 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't do so well on most shootouts though < 1117999742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'm not sure how much i trust the shootouts anyway < 1117999763 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever used Icon? < 1117999798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :briefly. not for anything serious. i decided to go with lua instead, which has some similar features < 1117999828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icon was way ahead of its time... < 1117999936 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'll study erlang in some more depth < 1117999964 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pitches in* give ruby a look too :P < 1117999998 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the downside of ruby? < 1118000006 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed < 1118000014 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so popular there must be a group of people who hate it < 1118000032 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd like to hear from those people before spending much time on ruby, but it is interesting < 1118000054 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I'm not sure how easy it'd be to find any of those people < 1118000054 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not so big a fan of ruby, but i don't have any particular thing against it < 1118000086 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty quick to condemn a language, but I haven't been able to find much wrong with ruby at all < 1118000093 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax was a little strange at first < 1118000223 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, erlang can load code into running systems, that's cool < 1118000881 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: btw i suspect qdeql needs 2 queues < 1118000885 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for TC < 1118000912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have the problem (i think) of the length of the queue being unknown at any given point < 1118000944 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you (e.g.) know you've cycled through the entire thing if you e.g. want to get at a cell in the very middle < 1118000951 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just a guess though < 1118001748 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that equivalent to the problem of the position of the tape pointer in brainfuck? < 1118001915 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that it should be possible to keep track of the length of the queue in a byte (or two, or three, or an unbounded number of bytes) that is kept accessible at all times < 1118002718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1118002757 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just not sure how you keep it accessible at all times < 1118002774 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tape in bf doesn't wrap around; you don't need to know the current length of it to navigate it < 1118002779 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like in a queue, you would < 1118002791 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if it was a deque < 1118002820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then you could go "left" and "right" like in bf or a TM) < 1118003108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1118003109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1118003111 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my initial idea was a deque, someone in here said it could be done with just a queue < 1118003124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be right < 1118003316 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if you could test or subtract from the byte at the front of the queue without displacing it, something like that might make the difference? < 1118003321 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would certainly be easier to use < 1118003635 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write an UTM in it and you'll be sure it's TC :) (sorry, I was afk) < 1118003720 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the languages, I faced a similar decision some weeks ago and I decided to learn Python (not in your list though) < 1118003736 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a seperate counter would clearly work, but is almost cheating (a FSA + 2 counters = TC, apparently) < 1118004019 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is there an specification of SQUISHY? < 1118004045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: heh. um... the original? no. Squishy2K? yes, somewhere... < 1118004080 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/squishy2k/doc/squishy2k.txt < 1118004097 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I was reading about Squishy2k < 1118004145 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original was more like thue-using-EBNF < 1118004150 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was only an idea < 1118004160 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering if it's worth creating a SQUISHY entry in the wiki, as the predecessor of Thue < 1118004195 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so... it really wasn't that significiant < 1118004357 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was Thue based on SQUISHY? < 1118004472 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey pgimeno, i tried to learn python before but i really found it confusing and counterintuitive < 1118004511 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed unclear what was or wasn't by reference, "deep copies" and "shallow copies" left my brain all fucked, so i stopped working on it < 1118004589 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it seemed that there were exceptions for things that should be "compile-time" errors (e.g., the inconsistent indentation exception) so i was afraid i'd have to spend a lot of time fighting off silly exceptions, rather than solving the problem at hand < 1118004713 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't faced deep vs shallow, but for the indentation problem I guess it's a "well-formedness" checking feature but it's detected at "compile time" i.e. when the script is loaded and parsed into tokens < 1118005009 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: you mean python fucked up your brain less that bf? < 1118005015 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.0 How's that possible? < 1118005023 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than bf* < 1118005681 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a comparison there < 1118005769 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a language bf is very simple and easy to learn; i'm familiar with exactly how every one of its features works < 1118005801 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python, and this is a problem i've had trying to learn other high-level languages, the language is doing crazy stuff behind my back that i don't understand < 1118005823 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: no, thue was based on, ummm, a [semi-]thue grammar :) < 1118005840 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1118005967 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: yeah, you have a point there; but still, for quick'n'easy scripts (rather than big projects) I find it useful < 1118006034 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I asked because it's listed as the successor of SQUISHY in several places < 1118006180 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i usually do quick'n'easy script type things in C < 1118006214 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1118006237 0 :wooby!~wooby@cpe-065-191-186-247.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1118006380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: hmm, well - not in any strong sense... the idea might have sparked the idea of having a minimal string-rewriting language < 1118006448 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1118006566 0 :CXI!Sanity@dialup-13.105.221.203.acc51-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1118007240 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1118007462 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1118007726 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]" < 1118008461 0 :heatsink!~heatsink@c-24-61-94-111.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1118009018 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey all < 1118009047 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi GregorR < 1118009064 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How goes? < 1118009077 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: is ORK based in Sorted! or SON-OF-UNBABTIZED? < 1118009093 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't even heard of them :P < 1118009103 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok :) < 1118009129 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it based on something at all? < 1118009177 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1118009249 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, where do you draw the line between "based on" and "inspired by"? < 1118009287 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the fact that I hadn't heard of either of those makes it pretty unlikely that it was "inspired by" :P < 1118009315 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I was talking in general, regarding categorizing in the wiki :) < 1118009336 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, lesse ... < 1118009344 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is based on C, but Java is only inspired by C++. < 1118009365 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because while C++ borrows the majority (actually, all) of C's syntax, Java does not borrow the majority of C++'s syntax. < 1118009372 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, "the majority" is not a razor-sharp line. < 1118009381 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, it does 8-D < 1118009451 0 :wooby!~wooby@cpe-065-191-186-247.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1118009722 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1118009954 0 :lindi-!~lindi@kulho150.adsl.netsonic.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1118011008 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1118011305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: do you have a link to your Smallfuck-to-SMETANA compiler? Googling for "smallfuck" is, uh... unproductive < 1118011462 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smetana? Like the those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it person? < 1118011505 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was originally Smetana like the composer, but I'm open to other interpretations :) < 1118011596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Bartered Bride" is probably what he's most known for < 1118011672 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moldau is one of my favorite classical pieces < 1118011721 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google claims that the guy who said that quote was named George Santayana, btw. (but google claims a lot of things...) < 1118012059 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1118012071 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, I like moldau vltava too < 1118012108 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably why I rmembered the name. < 1118013036 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, an algorithm written in Chef having bugs must be quite disgusting < 1118013092 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that true for most esolangs? < 1118013149 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, imagine a Fibonacci Numbers with Caramel Sauce with bugs X-P < 1118013348 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the perl implementation doesn't make it easier with it's uninformative error messages :) < 1118013591 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just imagine one of these in the caramel sauce: http://images.google.com/images?q=bugs < 1118013629 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1118013632 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though some would be actually interesting) < 1118013642 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some of them would be kind of kinky ;) < 1118014948 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I could argue that the 3 queues in the NULL language mean it's not *really* zero-dimensional... < 1118014975 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the dimensional aspect refer to the code, not the data structures? < 1118014999 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok. it could have 0-dimensional code < 1118015056 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we should probably have a separate queue-based category. < 1118015291 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :categorization of esolangs is like counting the number of colours in the rainbow < 1118015331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw kipple, i added an outline of a proof of turing-completeness to the kipple page < 1118015341 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw it. nice < 1118015459 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very familiar with theory of computation, so I wouldn't know how to write such things. < 1118015464 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider the brainfuck interpreter proof enough < 1118015589 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I was looking for such a way of classifying the languages like this. I was using my bookmarks but it was not enough. The categories that characterize each language are IMO very valuable. < 1118015739 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: oh, there's a bf interpreter written in kipple? i wasn't aware... yeah, that's excellent proof too, i'll note it < 1118015763 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it was the second program ever written in kipple :) < 1118015781 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/samples/bfi.k < 1118015820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: well, what i mean is, once you have a category established, one of the most valuable new esoteric languages that can be designed, is one that defies classification under that category :) < 1118015988 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah but still I think it's good to have them