00:01:20 <kipple> heh. Befunge is now in 9 categories.....
00:20:24 <pgimeno> isn't TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL a joke language?
00:21:06 <pgimeno> (as in "totally unusable except as a joke")
00:22:36 <kipple> well, it is probably turing-complete... though perhaps not always :)
00:23:51 <pgimeno> if it is turing complete all days, is it turing complete?
00:24:04 * kipple doesn't like the idea of separating joke languages from the rest
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03:21:15 <puzzlet> pgimeno, how about like listing all turing-complete languages on [[Turing-complete]]?
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07:05:43 <graue> do SMITH and Muriel count as self-modifying?
07:20:40 <lament> cpressey: do you want it?
07:35:10 <lament> on [[Turing complete]], smallfuck is mentioned as a minimal example of turing-complete language
07:44:47 <lament> i should probably explicitly state somewhere that smallfuck implementations must have a memory size limit
07:44:56 <lament> or, change my mind and allow them to be infinite.
07:54:16 <graue> i read through all the mailing list discussion on the subject and don't remember seeing that
07:54:16 <lament> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Ale
07:54:46 <graue> "stupid" is the term the author uses (see link)
07:55:02 <graue> i just wanted to make a page so someone could flesh it out later
07:55:25 <lament> or is that flower thing a logo
07:55:27 <graue> we need a PD Piet program to use as a logo
07:55:34 <graue> the flower thing is the mediawiki logo, so it sucks
07:55:55 <graue> also it should do something cool
07:57:01 <graue> with a proper command set, a language with only one bignum should be TC
07:57:03 <graue> that would be cool
07:57:29 <lament> that language could simply be Brainfuck
07:57:38 <lament> and that's not cool at all
07:57:51 <lament> it would operate on the digits of the bignum :)
07:57:51 <graue> [ only knows "0 or not-zero"
07:58:02 <graue> then it could be, yes
07:58:28 <lament> do you know of a graphics editor that'd be good for piet?
07:59:07 <graue> in fact, if you write one, release it as free software, because i don't know of any decent bitmap editors for working with pixels
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08:03:53 <lament> the only interpreter is in perl!? awww
08:05:44 <lament> there's a txt2gif converter
08:05:49 <lament> http://www.majcher.com/code/piet/
08:06:54 <lament> and i can't download it, it's 403
08:07:29 <graue> does the wayback machine possibly have a copy from before it became 403'd?
08:08:09 <lament> oh, okay, it's part of the release
08:08:19 <lament> http://www.majcher.com/code/piet/Releases/Piet-Interpreter-0.03.tar.gz
08:09:46 <lament> so what would a logo program do?
08:10:54 <graue> something that it can do while looking nice
08:11:08 <lament> the fibonacci program on the piet website looks nice i think
08:12:11 <graue> you think we can get some copyright renunciation out of the guy?
08:12:56 <lament> why does it have to be public domain anyway?
08:14:35 <graue> because there's a blanket statement that anything on the wiki is, just to avoid complicating things
08:15:20 <graue> i guess you could say the logo is not content, but if it's an esolang program, people might think otherwise
08:15:21 <lament> you think it'd make a good logo?
08:15:23 <lament> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/fibbig.gif
08:16:00 <lament> it's just the right size
08:18:43 <lindi-> graue: why not use 3-clause BSD license or MIT license?
08:19:15 <lindi-> graue: those at least state that there is no warranty
08:23:06 <graue> those licenses don't solve the problem of you having to acknowledge, "Parts copyright (c) 2004 'Bob1233'. Parts copyright (c) 2005 'Graue', Parts copyright (c) 2005 '68.133.119.11'" etc for every nontrivial page
08:23:14 <graue> i'll add something stating that there is no warranty
08:29:14 <lament> okay, i sent the guy an email
08:31:31 <graue> by the way, what was it you found, again, about a language with a single queue being TC?
08:32:19 <graue> i made such a language (http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/qdeql/) and implied that it was TC, and cpressey is not convinced
08:33:30 <lament> i have never found nor said anything about that
08:33:47 <lament> all i did was ask you if it was really TC
08:33:53 <lament> cause i'm not convinced either
08:36:37 <graue> damn, am i confusing you with someone else in this channel?
09:03:24 <lament> man, piet is a cool idea but too painful
09:03:32 <lament> i don't feel like installing perl modules :(
09:04:04 <graue> maybe you can pay someone $50 an hour to convert it to ruby then
09:04:35 <lindi-> graue: how does wikipedia handle this?
09:05:39 <graue> i imagine that wikipedia itself is violating the FDL immensely just by continuing to exist
09:05:49 <lament> graue: but the ruby version would also require the same module
09:05:57 <graue> lament: convert the code in the module
09:06:14 <graue> the module is on the Sylvain guy's site
09:07:05 <lament> graue: the module is ImageMagick and isn't in Perl at all...
09:10:44 <lament> you know what would be awesome
09:10:50 <lament> a language that uses musical notation
09:11:02 <graue> heh, yeah, that would be great
09:11:05 <graue> not to my knowledge
09:12:08 <lament> choon does'nt even come close
09:14:37 <graue> i'd be interested in a language that used natural language to control it, but in a totally unnatural way, so that any grammatically correct english sentence was a program
09:15:06 <graue> there's a research project it could be built on that analyzes sentences, "link grammar" or something like that, it's called
09:21:05 <lament> ok that's it i'm designing a music-based language
09:21:12 <lament> it's gonna be the best ever
09:22:07 <lament> programs will be polyphonic compositions in the style of Bach.
09:36:12 <graue> does atonal music crash?
09:36:35 <lament> okay, make that "potentially in the style of bach" :)
09:36:51 <lament> but they'll be polyphonic
09:37:14 <lament> that's a must, and i'm trying to figure out how to make that into a useful programming paradigm
09:37:48 <graue> is it too obvious to make each voice a thread?
09:38:19 <lament> but what to do with that later?
09:38:25 <lament> there must be some incentive to use more than one thread
09:38:47 <lament> to use 2 to 4 threads at most times
09:38:53 <graue> so now your challenge is "design language that is useful for computation if, and only if, multiple threads are used"
09:39:02 <graue> the music part is solved
09:40:30 <lament> they don't have to be threads though
09:40:43 <lament> i was thinking of having some sort of assembly
09:40:47 <graue> how about if the only program state is based on which thread is running what code right now?
09:40:55 <lament> where one voice is an operation
09:41:02 <lament> and other voices are parameters
09:41:17 <graue> can that produce good music?
09:42:07 <graue> do you plan to use the tonal system?
09:42:11 <lament> but it's against the nature of polyphony to designate one thread as special
09:42:21 <lament> i.e. have one "melody" aka "operation" thread
09:43:02 <lament> yeah, tonal system or something like that
09:43:12 <puzzlet> fugue programming language!
09:43:13 <lament> intervals are significant rather than notes
09:43:55 <lament> make enough room for expression, i.e. major and minor third in any direction is the same instruction
09:43:55 <graue> naturally i'll have to answer your language with a twelve-tone programming language
09:44:11 <lament> so i guess no, no tonal system :)
09:44:35 <graue> if you have a concept of major and minor third you are using the tonal system
09:44:57 <puzzlet> tonal system is like, you have major or minor.
09:45:09 <lament> not really, since they're always measured from the current note
09:45:10 <puzzlet> the opposite of atonal system
09:45:17 <lament> there's no tonal center
09:45:43 <lament> i'm just saying, "up 3 steps or up 4 steps is the same instruction"
09:45:52 <graue> but it's based on intervals, and that is the tonal system
09:46:20 <puzzlet> atonal system is based on intervals indeed
09:47:28 <graue> the tonal system is based on interval content, whereas, for contrast, the twelve-tone system is based on interval order
09:47:53 <graue> i can't comment on the atonal system, but it would not be possible to meaningfully use the twelve-tone system in this language
09:49:24 <graue> i don't mind programming in the tonal system
09:49:41 <lament> but the reason i'm not getting it is because you're not making any sense!
09:50:53 <graue> the reason i am ceasing my argument is because i don't believe i can explain it effectively!
09:51:50 <graue> in the twelve-tone system, you take all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, shuffle them into a random permutation, and then add registral details by assigning them to different octaves and such
09:52:01 <graue> it's based on all twelve tones being there all the time, more or less
09:52:26 <graue> are we calling the same thing two different names?
09:52:39 <graue> what i described exists and is called twelve-tone music
09:53:14 <puzzlet> but calling every music other than twelve-tone music "tonal" is wrong
09:53:59 <puzzlet> tonal music is based on tonality, the major chord.
09:54:37 <puzzlet> and i belive that other side of the music is called "atonal", which twelve-tone music is part of
09:56:36 <graue> atonal music is actually a subset of the intersection of tonal and twelve-tone music, according to noted composer Charles Wuorinen, whose book i have just consulted on the subject
09:56:36 <puzzlet> and beside that, atonal music includes other mechanisms like whole-tone scale music
09:57:17 <graue> Wuorinen sees "tonal" as part of "diatonic" and "12-tone" as part of "chromatic"
09:57:27 <graue> so perhaps this esolang idea is based on diatonic music, then
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09:58:43 <puzzlet> diatonic music is based on scale
09:59:31 <lament> it is based on chromatic
09:59:37 <puzzlet> but the idea of melody moving by interval is free from any scale, and not falls in 12-tone
10:00:03 <lament> yeah, it's just chromatic
10:00:09 <lament> but the programmer is free to make it as tonal as he likes
10:00:42 <lament> in particular, whatever the other instructions are
10:00:44 <puzzlet> becuase he/she can choose from major and minor 3rd interval
10:01:01 <lament> i have decided to make major/minor second a "skip the next interval" instruction
10:01:41 <lament> (an instruction like that is necessary so the voice stays within some reasonable frequency range)
10:01:45 <puzzlet> lament: do going-up and going-down indicate different instructions?
10:02:06 <lament> which leaves room for very few instructions really
10:02:35 <lament> but that's ok since they'll have arguments
10:03:07 <graue> you say a skip the next interval instruction, how about skipping the next n intervals?
10:03:36 <lament> just make the next interval (after the skipped one) again a second
10:03:48 <lament> you can write a lot with that
10:04:09 <puzzlet> lament: how do you plan about note duration?
10:04:38 <lament> (otherwise it will be practically impossible to make it sound good)
10:06:08 <lament> dunno what storage model could work
10:06:17 <lament> perhaps each voice has its own memory or something
10:11:13 <graue> what, the parameters have memory different from the operation's memory?
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10:35:21 <pgimeno> <graue> we need a PD Piet program to use as a logo
10:35:56 <pgimeno> I used the hello.png Piet program with permission from the author; he was very happy that it was used for something
10:36:49 <pgimeno> (used in <http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.php>)
10:37:18 <pgimeno> <lament> do you know of a graphics editor that'd be good for piet?
10:37:37 <pgimeno> maybe npiet works: http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/
10:38:57 <pgimeno> <graue> by the way, what was it you found, again, about a language with a single queue being TC?
10:40:25 <pgimeno> fizzie gave this link: http://jackson.cs.miami.edu/~burt/papers/1993.1/Saq-JAIIO-2.ps
10:53:45 <puzzlet> i got http://puzzlet.org/html/jsaheui_en.html done
10:57:28 <pgimeno> now I know what button to press, thanks :)
11:07:10 <pgimeno> I find it still a bit hard to use
11:07:27 <pgimeno> especially since I can't type Hangul
11:11:51 <pgimeno> what was the link to the language description, again?
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11:19:00 <pgimeno> well, all I could try is Hello, world
11:24:57 <puzzlet_> can you configure to use Korean input system?
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11:26:49 <puzzlet> there are external Hangul input system like saenaru and ngs, but i'm worrying either of them haven't been translated into English..
11:26:56 <pgimeno> I'm afraid not, and even if I can, I'm afraid of doing it and not being able to return to normal
11:27:04 <DMM> evening all
11:27:18 <puzzlet> evening? familiar timezone :)
11:27:28 <DMM> Sydney :-)
11:27:58 <DMM> I just got an email about the esolang wiki...
11:28:25 <puzzlet> if you use X window system, i recommend to use nabi.
11:28:25 <puzzlet> as the Hangul input system
11:28:25 <pgimeno> yup, lament sent it if I'm right
11:30:22 <pgimeno> DMM: thanks for your permission to use the hellobig.png as a logo, btw
11:30:59 <DMM> wow, I'm still writing my reply granting permission... :-)
11:31:34 <pgimeno> sorry, I mean here: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.png
11:31:42 <pgimeno> that was quite a while ago
11:31:44 <DMM> oh! right :-)
11:31:58 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/EsotericLanguages.php
11:36:08 <pgimeno> by the way, I have abused the idea on your BIT language and made up Bitxtreme: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php
11:37:54 <DMM> rofl... I like the file extension
11:38:49 <pgimeno> actually it's a joke language to ironize about the lack of space for writing complex programs in some space-limited languages, especially Malbolge
11:39:48 <DMM> heh... that's great. I like the fact you zip all four sample programs for convenience...
11:42:52 <DMM> does zip really make a 562 byte file out of those?
11:43:31 <pgimeno> that's what it did when I compressed them
11:49:22 <pgimeno> btw, I'm not sure if you're aware that there's been a recent incorporation of 99bob in Chef to de 99bob page
11:51:24 <DMM> I heard from the guy who was writing it, didn't know he'd finished
11:53:34 <pgimeno> there are two versions actually by two different people who submitted them independently and within a few hours
11:55:50 <DMM> wow, that's a nice program :-)
11:57:48 <DMM> the sous-chef one
12:04:28 * DMM heads off... getting late here
12:05:12 -!- DMM has left (?).
12:16:07 <sp3tt> Noooo... I missed David Morgan-Mar :(
12:23:46 <sp3tt> I wonder what the most complex program written in shakespeare is...
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13:07:32 <puzzlet> maybe i could provide a graphical Hangul input system for that interpreter...
14:13:58 <GregorR> While totally unrelated to esoteric programming, to me this is exciting, so I shall scream it out... I IMPLEMENTED ENCRYPTION INTO DIRECTNET!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
14:14:50 <pgimeno> what is directnet? what encryption?
14:45:52 <pgimeno> I answered myself about directnet.
15:07:11 <kipple> so, what's the status of the logo?
15:08:43 <kipple> I played a bit with paint shop pro, and a some spoofs of the MediaWiki logo
15:08:49 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/esologo1.png
15:08:56 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/esologo2.png
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15:09:23 <kipple> the MediaWiki logo: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/skins/common/images/wiki.png
15:11:57 <kipple> argh. "made some spoofs", i meant to say
15:16:46 <pgimeno> kipple: apparently DMM replied to lament by email
15:19:33 <kipple> put them all on one page: file://slartibartfast/rune/www/lang/logos.html
15:21:09 <kipple> I like the idea of using a Piet program, but the ones I've seen so far are a bit ugly, IMHO
15:21:18 <pgimeno> er, check that last URL :)
15:22:00 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html
15:26:51 <pgimeno> I still like the last one more than the rest
15:27:37 * kipple is reading the Piet spec...
15:29:50 <pgimeno> seen the npiet link I've given above?
15:30:36 <pgimeno> http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/
15:31:21 <pgimeno> it comes with a tcl/tk editor
15:34:03 <kipple> nice code gallery on that page too
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19:19:23 <pgimeno> здравствулте! (or so says Babelfish)
19:19:36 <lament> so yeah, DMM replied to me as i'm sure you're aware
19:19:58 <lament> pgimeno: that's strange, it's fine but one letter is misspelled
19:20:13 <lament> can't be a grammar-based typo either
19:20:26 <pgimeno> probably wrong dict or something
19:20:54 <lament> the program i asked DMM about to use is a logo isn't helloworld btw
19:20:59 <lament> it's the fibonacci one
19:21:11 <lament> but the npiet page says the program is broken...
19:21:58 <lament> http://www.bertnase.de/npiet/picture.html
19:23:20 <pgimeno> I'm not sure what that means exactly
19:24:01 <lament> it seems npiet and piet reference implementation don't interpret the piet specification the same way
19:26:36 <pgimeno> indeed that's noted and there's an example with the differences
19:27:23 <pgimeno> (at the bottom of the page you've given)
19:31:55 <pgimeno> in malbolge, the discrepancies between the spec and the interpreter were resolved in favor of the interpreter
19:45:05 <lament> hm, has anybody looked at Aura?
19:46:43 <lament> it seems that all that exists is an undocumented interpreter
19:51:40 <cpressey> (now i need to catch up on this log)
19:54:58 <cpressey> graue: re: do SMITH and Muriel count as self-modifying? ... in a loose sense, I'd say say... yes... but the sense is very loose (Muriel program need to make modified copies of themselves to do interesting stuff, and SMITH only really needs to append to itself, not (strictly) modify...
19:56:19 <cpressey> re one bignum... my understanding is an FSA + two counters (bignums) is TC.
19:56:41 <cpressey> (so maybe a rational bignum...?)
20:03:19 <lament> http://z3.ca/~lament/smetana_sf.tar.gz
20:04:27 <lament> aura seems interesting
20:04:34 <lament> i wonder if it can possibly be useful
20:11:33 <pgimeno> lament: it's in my to-look list
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20:14:42 <pgimeno> -lilo/Wallops- Hmmm, check the links on ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists , perhaps congratulations are in order!
20:15:01 <pgimeno> apparently Sarge is finally out
20:16:30 <lament> if it is, it's insanely hard to program
20:17:00 <pgimeno> the interpreter is a pain to read
20:17:51 <pgimeno> instructions are taken by character mod 8, if I understand it correctly
20:19:55 * pgimeno hates programs made up of just one-letter vars
21:44:20 <pgimeno> From:Lode Vandevenne <lode at planetunreal.com>
21:44:22 <pgimeno> The university page will indeed be gone in a few years, too bad, it's such
21:44:22 <pgimeno> Feel free to host a copy of it for preservation. Normally I'll also have my
21:44:22 <pgimeno> own webspace one day, but not yet, so it's a good idea to make a copy.
21:44:46 * pgimeno commits his page into the svn repos
21:45:15 <pgimeno> (Lode Vandevenne is the author of gammaplex)
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22:48:14 <graue> new db backup at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/db/esolang-050606.sql.bz2
22:49:07 <malaprop> graue: Ah, been wanting to ask you. What's the schedule for those? Daily or weekly? And for the files repos?
22:50:31 <graue> the schedule is whenever i make them
22:50:37 <pgimeno> about the files, what was the update frequency?
22:51:13 <malaprop> I thought the point of this scheme was to eliminate the possibility of losing everything because someone loses interest? How about a cron job instead?
22:51:44 <GregorR> malaprop: I was just about to say that ;)
22:52:16 <GregorR> We create this thing so that it can sort of automatically back itself up, and now we're relying on humans? No offense graue, but you are human.
22:52:54 <graue> well, i'm insulted!
22:53:11 <malaprop> And for dates, YYYYMMDD has the benefit of being ISO and common.
22:53:35 <GregorR> graue: PATHETIC FLESH-BAG!!!
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22:56:01 <malaprop> graue: Would you like a hand setting up cron jobs?
22:59:26 <graue> no thanks, i can do it
22:59:54 <graue> i'm trying to figure out how to allow anonymous svn read access so you can back up the files repo
23:01:24 <malaprop> Having svn read access does not allow you to recreate the repository, you'll need to take an 'svnadmin dump'.
23:02:38 <pgimeno> I don't think that history is needed
23:03:08 <malaprop> If it's in svn, I want the history. I know someone will definitely end up using it.
23:04:03 <pgimeno> well, I think it's svn just because it can't be ftp, so it's svn used as ftp
23:04:43 <malaprop> pgimeno: I know. But since it's in version control, it's just a matter of time until someone uses versioning.
23:06:03 <malaprop> pgimeno: It'll probably happen about a day after the first person who wasn't here for the planning discussion is given access.
23:07:54 <malaprop> Gotta run, can pick up the discussion in ~2.5h.
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23:28:54 <pgimeno> graue: I commited some files a while ago; when are they expected to show up?
23:30:29 <graue> they are expected to show up within 6.5 hours then
23:31:44 <kipple> about the svn: how do I get access? anonymous read access would be nice, but I'd like write access...
23:33:15 <kipple> is there a generic user account for this project, or do we get personal?
23:39:28 <graue> kipple: read my private message
23:39:50 <kipple> sorry. not paying attention... ;)
23:49:55 <graue> anyone should now be able to "svn co http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles/" and get everything
23:53:12 <pgimeno> indeed it's accessible via browser: http://www.esolangs.org/svn/esofiles/
23:53:48 <graue> but if you open an HTML file it shows the source, and that doesn't have dates, filesizes...
23:54:32 <graue> cpressey, want an account for writing with?
23:57:05 <kipple> question: do I have to set file permissions for files I add, or does svn take care of that?
23:59:04 <pgimeno> svn doesn't handle permissions, just executable
23:59:04 <kipple> hmm. I ran svn commit but nothing seem to happen..
23:59:24 <kipple> ok, so I have to set read access to all on every file I add?
23:59:29 <pgimeno> first try svn status and see what you have