00:00:09 LOL 00:00:18 Good ol' arrange->tiled 00:03:19 do brainfuck files have a .bf extension? 00:03:31 Sometimes .b, sometimes .bf 00:03:43 usually .b I think 00:03:52 .bf is also used for befunge 00:03:56 <{^Raven^}> I always use .b as .bf is used by befunge 00:04:18 okay, thanks much 00:05:17 bf is for befunge, use b instead :) 00:05:27 i use b 00:07:07 i hate to think what Befuck and Befreak must use 00:07:59 well, there is no reason to limit extension to 1-3 chars really... 00:08:08 yeah 00:08:34 .befuck 00:08:36 .befreak 00:08:37 :P 00:08:48 Anybody have a SCSI terminator they can pass me through IRC? 00:19:24 I can't seem to fit mine into the floppy drive for DIGITIZING. 00:20:03 It's for scsi-2, with that HD50 connector, if that's ok. 00:21:15 -!- harkeyahh_ has joined. 00:22:37 It's originally from an SGI Indy, and has a value-adding "feature" of not being able to fit to the (inset) scsi connectors of an external Sun HD box. 00:23:09 what are you talking about?! 00:23:43 The SCSI terminator requested few lines ago. 00:25:26 what is it? 00:25:30 I'm very SCSI-inept .... this is old, and I'm not sure how old SCSI-2 is, or whether this is SCSI-2 or SCSI-1 00:26:32 Well... if it has a small-ish (well, small for 50 pins) 50-pin connector, it's probably scsi-2. 00:26:47 It's pretty massive. 00:27:00 This is an olde Apple CD-ROM drive. 00:27:23 Ah, then it's probably the Centronics connector, which is larger. HD50 would look like http://www.cselex.com/images-large/HD50.jpg 00:28:01 Although I guess I'd have some sort of trouble DCC'ing a physical object anyway. 00:28:53 http://www.elara.ie/elara/graphics/Belkin/OR1230000015229.jpg < is this a SCSI terminator? I thought SCSI terminators only had one end ... 00:30:00 Pretty hard to say from the image. Usually they do have only a single connector. 00:30:00 yo 00:30:06 hi 00:30:56 Keymaker: seen my tentative x=not(x)? 00:32:01 could you give it to me as pure brainfuck? 00:32:24 i get confused by those wiki versions that have instructions replaced with text 00:33:07 I'm not saying it _isn't_ a terminator, though. Some seem to have two connectors, assumedly to work as terminators when nothing's connected, but allow adding new devices to the end of the chain temporarily. 00:33:30 assume x is at 0, temp0 is at 1, and D = 0; then: >[-]<[>+<[-]]+>[-<->] 00:34:23 Keymaker: a label means: insert as many > or < as to go to the given label 00:35:15 Or possibly a: "Feed-through SCSI terminator: Use this if you have no more connectors left on your cable to connect a SCSI terminator. You plug the last connector in one side of the SCSI terminator and then plug the other side of the terminator into your last device. Helps keep cable lengths short." 00:35:22 -!- harkeyahh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:07 hmm 00:37:29 so x is in cell 0? and this is non-wrapping? 00:37:37 -!- harkeyahh_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 00:38:10 I may be mistaken, I haven't tried the code 00:38:17 or should this be 00:38:20 for bits? 00:38:37 like 0 to 1 and 1 to 0? 00:38:41 this means: if x = 0 then x = 1 else x = 0 00:38:51 then it works 00:39:12 yeah, it does that, what you said, yes 00:39:13 isn't that what not(x) does? 00:39:24 or is it bitwise not? 00:39:33 it is bitwise not i assume 00:39:38 oh! 00:39:41 I see 00:39:44 ok 00:39:57 I assumed logical not 00:40:45 <{^Raven^}> for bitwise signed it would be NOT(x)=MAXCELLVALUE-x 00:41:08 yeah 00:41:09 yeah, assuming MAXCELLVALUE is a power of 2 - 1 :) 00:41:28 wait.. i'm confused with these namings 00:42:01 <{^Raven^}> doesn;t matter if cell values wrap 00:42:41 what's difference between bitwise and logical? 00:42:49 does logical return only 0 or 1? 00:43:13 and bitwise does stuff by first slicing values to bits and then doing bit operations and so on? 00:43:18 <{^Raven^}> yeah, logical NOT returns only TRUE or FALSE 00:43:28 ah. then pgimenos code is logical not 00:43:45 (sorry, i got confused with these names) 00:44:11 logical not that works with values bigger than 1, as well 00:44:12 "bitwise" means one bit at a time 00:44:15 ok 00:44:43 <{^Raven^}> you can cheat a bitwise NOT easily in BF 00:45:56 {^Raven^}: btw, this is related to http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms 00:46:28 yep 00:47:44 heh, my algorithm matches calamari's one except for the last [-x-temp0] instead of [temp0-x-] 00:48:10 <{^Raven^}> nice page there 00:48:17 yeah 00:48:27 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 00:48:55 sup ChanServ my babeh 00:49:03 almost finished with TSS 00:49:25 had to program the neutralizer in bf 00:51:01 I suck at BF, btw 00:51:26 I had to hack the compiler to get it to work 00:51:28 <{^Raven^}> If I can remember how to program BF: (value)>[-]-<[>-<] sets cell+1 to bitwise NOT cell 00:52:06 {^Raven^} I should upload it so you can take a look at it 00:53:33 {^Raven^} http://pastebin.bafserv.com/412 00:53:47 in the //INSET BF NEUTRALIZER bit 00:54:25 *note it has been hacked to adjsut for some ASCII differences in TSS 00:55:11 <{^Raven^}> or >[-]-<[>-<]>[<+>]< to set cell=NOT(cell); (cell+1) = 0 00:55:46 yeah I would have done it that way but then the page outputs backwards 00:56:21 h/o going to get a manual bbm 01:01:23 <{^Raven^}> logical NOT is a bit harder 01:08:19 hey, here's interesting phrase: "Pile up Z's" 01:08:29 means "Get some sleep" 01:08:40 according to some slang of the fifties page i'm reading 01:08:50 :) 01:09:27 Umm, wouldn't logical not just be bitwise not proceeded by [[-]+] ? 01:09:47 Oh wait ... 01:09:57 Yeah, that's right. 01:10:09 00000000 becomes 11111111 becomes 00000001 01:10:19 00000001 becomes 11111110 --- never mind, I'm dumb. 01:12:45 <{^Raven^}> got as far as >[-]<[>+<[-]]>[<+>]< and >[-]+<[>-] but not luck 01:13:02 <{^Raven^}> keep forgetting the other condition 01:13:08 okay got it 01:13:42 I was reading up i think it will be fine 01:14:12 * {^Raven^} is off to bed before morning happens again 01:14:23 <{^Raven^}> nite all 01:14:27 nite raven 01:14:58 nite 01:15:34 Keymaker did you see the TSS source code? 01:21:19 no 01:22:17 but i must go now 01:22:27 3:26 am and i'm tired :) 01:22:34 'nite 01:22:41 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 01:28:37 -!- calamari has joined. 01:28:44 hi 01:28:56 Hoi 01:29:43 <{^Raven^}> hey there 01:30:08 howdy 01:30:09 hi Raven.. you're mentioned on the wiki under BFBASIC :) 01:30:23 <{^Raven^}> am i? cool! must check that out 01:30:33 don't get too excited.. lol 01:30:43 OK, rather than finding a SCSI terminator, I'll ask: Is there any way to install Debian on an olde PowerPC laptop with a disk drive and no networking or CD? :P 01:31:38 null-modem cable perhaps? 01:31:52 It's a Mac. 01:31:56 <{^Raven^}> i released Lost Kingdom to the world today :) but i guess you know that already ;) 01:32:45 <{^Raven^}> anyways i'm off to bed, nite 01:33:12 gregor: doesn't it have some equivalent of a serial port? 01:33:43 kipple: It has a modem ... and a strange port with a little telephone on it XD 01:33:51 (Gregor is not a macintosh expert :P) 01:34:31 A disk drive as in a floppy one? 01:34:31 nite {^Raven^} 01:35:19 fizzie: Yeah. 01:35:20 raven: cool! (goes off to download) 01:35:23 Well, it has an HDD too. 01:35:48 BTW {^Raven^}, though Lost Kingdom is whooping my arse, it's quite awesome. 01:36:15 bah 01:36:26 show us how impressive the source in BFBASIC looks 01:36:51 the way it uses brainfuck is no better than giving us a big .exe file 01:37:09 (I'm not a mac expert either.) I've once installed linux on one x86 laptop much like that one. I used the internal modem in the laptop, connected to another modem on a desktop box (with atx3 they won't insist on a dial tone) running pppd, then did a network install. 01:37:14 and saying "look what i did in machine code!" 01:37:24 For booting you'd probably need a bootable mac floppy. 01:37:40 graue: I think a .class file might be a better comparison. 01:37:55 fizzie: I can boot into the basic installer, I just can't get the packages from anywhere XD 01:38:10 GregorR, same difference 01:38:25 brainfuck is only interesting when it's handwritten 01:39:55 If there's a version that supports the modem and ppp, you could do it the way I did. If you're _really_ patient, you could also write the packages on gazillion floppies, and copy on the HD, and install from there, using the shell included in the installer. 01:40:15 Uh, 'copy on the HDD using the shell', I mean. 01:41:04 you'd only need two floppies, not a gazillion 01:41:33 but you would have to reuse them a gazillion times 01:41:47 Well, yes, gazillion floppyfuls (hee, nice word) of data. 01:42:17 That sounds like more fun than I can possibly describe 8-D 01:42:25 GregorR: yeah, it might not be too hard to convert from bfbasic bf back to bfbasic, since the source for bfbasic is available 01:42:42 It's like watching paint dry, only less interesting. 01:44:26 graue: re: handwritten, I disagree.. it might be a little unsettling to see a larger project in bf, but I think most people would agree that asm doesn't work out the best for huge projects.. bf is like asm in many ways 01:45:44 it just makes sense to use a compiler in large cases 01:50:49 calamari, yeah, but then why use brainfuck? 01:51:31 the reason to use brainfuck is it's challenging and interesting to write in 01:51:50 if you're compiling, why not just compile for your machine? 01:53:06 i wrote a DOS program once using only a hex editor, and that was interesting to have written something in machine code, but i don't compile mammoth C programs to 2 MB binaries and say, hey, look what i wrote in machine code! 01:53:12 the reason for it being interesting is a lie 01:56:15 graue: bf is cross platform.. and it is interesting to me: 1) example of the power of bf, 2) a fun game, 3) using bfbasic, 4) big, etc 01:56:42 hope that helps 01:57:16 graue: and if you have something cool to show off that your wrote in c, I don't think anyone here would mind :) 01:57:17 fair enough, but you gotta admit it ain't nothin' like a program actually written in brainfuck 01:58:01 graue: you wouldn't use bfbasic in a bfgolf tournament.. is that what you're looking for? :) 01:59:01 i wrote this in C, which is cross platform because it runs in wine: http://www.thunderpalace.com/software/blockman/ 01:59:12 i guess everyone here will be astounded at how impressive that is 02:02:18 impressive, most impressive.. obi-wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear. now release your anger.. only your hatred can destroy me :) 02:02:49 since I know how big a star wars fan you are, I know you'll appreciate that ;) 02:03:45 thank you 02:04:03 -!- harkeyahh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:05:05 graue: "BLOCKMAN.LVL is nonexistent or corrupt" 02:05:26 the file is there.. 02:06:12 not trying to run it from the zip or anything 02:06:47 hmm.. works from the command line 02:07:05 wonder where the bug is.. gnome, wine, or ubuntu? 02:11:17 graue: somehow I get the feeling the game is abandoned, but if not, the game would benefit from a menu, for restart, quit, and easy access to help 02:12:00 well, it was only a version 0.07 02:16:59 *nod*, doesn't change my suggestion any :) 02:23:35 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 03:13:32 -!- graue has left (?). 03:17:05 -!- harkeyahh has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]"). 03:20:01 -!- wooby has joined. 03:32:54 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:33:37 -!- smott_ has joined. 03:36:36 -!- smott has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:59:25 -!- wooby has quit. 04:18:04 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:24:45 -!- calamari has joined. 04:29:15 -!- GregorR has quit (Success). 04:55:15 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 05:27:51 -!- graue has joined. 05:27:59 -!- graue has quit (Client Quit). 05:34:37 argh.. my esoshell hacks for printed backspaces don't seem to be working right 05:34:51 gotta give up for now, homework time 07:01:33 -!- tokigun^away has changed nick to tokigun. 07:55:41 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:25:37 -!- kipple has joined. 11:13:09 -!- Keymaker has joined. 11:13:32 hmmm. grrhhh. i had some question in mind just second ago 11:13:35 .. 11:16:40 yes.. what's difference between random and undefined? 11:18:32 undefined can be anything, while random implies a certain distribution of values 11:19:21 ah 11:20:10 at least that's how I see it. there are probably people here who can put it more formally 11:20:34 :) 11:20:52 as well, if anyone has any information about aura, tell me 11:21:30 I've looked at the interpreter source. is there any web site? 11:21:50 can't find 11:33:57 I'd say the precise meanings of 'random' and 'undefined' depend on the context in which they are used. In the C specs for example, the term undefined is well-defined. 11:34:01 ("behavior, upon use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct, of erroneous data, or of indeterminately valued objects, for which this International Standard imposes no requirements") 11:48:19 bbl. 11:48:21 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 12:14:01 <{^Raven^}> mornin peeps 13:00:39 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 13:12:08 -!- jix has joined. 13:12:34 moin 13:13:31 -!- sp3tt has joined. 13:42:59 -!- malaprop has joined. 15:31:47 -!- Falling has joined. 15:33:34 -!- Falling has left (?). 15:46:17 -!- tokigun has joined. 16:14:41 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 16:46:15 -!- jix has joined. 16:46:45 back 17:14:18 <{^Raven^}> hullo 17:29:48 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 17:30:23 ChanServ my babeh 17:53:26 -!- calamari_ has joined. 17:53:32 hi 17:53:44 <{^Raven^}> hi there 17:55:33 hi raven, just sent you a mail :) can't work on it right now tho 17:56:47 <{^Raven^}> me either, i have a cross compiler to port to C and a load of other programs to write 17:57:51 <{^Raven^}> I have some ideas for writing better brainfuck virtual machines that I need to write up 17:58:35 * {^Raven^} prefers the term virtual-machine to interpreter any day 18:01:15 Doesn't "virtual machine" include the idea of sandboxing? 18:03:15 <{^Raven^}> It can do, it depends ultimately on the functionality you are trying to achieve 18:03:56 The machine isn't virtual if it's stepping all over your real machine, tho. 18:04:55 <{^Raven^}> IMHO any current interpreter that allows a program to wander into arbitary workspace is horrificly broken 18:05:09 malaprop: would you consider Java a virtual machine, even though it ties in to all sorts of low level stuff? 18:07:42 18:07:46 oops :) 18:12:38 Java the language? No, it's a language. JVM, yes, as a browser applet is sandoboxed. 18:14:17 <{^Raven^}> *depending on the security settings active at the time. A JVM with appropriate permissions can access the underlying OS 18:25:52 well, I don't think there is a definition of virtual machine that everbody would agree on 18:28:00 I don't see any definitions on Wikipedia that don't include some kind of sandboxing. Where do y'all see it defined without? 18:30:10 -!- graue has joined. 18:30:56 but what is sandboxing? brainfuck interpreters isolates the programs from the computer, and does not allow arbitrary memory and file access 18:32:36 bf is isolated because there's no implementation of file IO. It'd be a VM if bf had IO and it was to a fake filesystem only. 18:32:44 <{^Raven^}> malaprop: google for - define:virtual machine 18:34:20 {^Raven^}: Every definition it returns includes sandboxing. Heck, one simply says "A machine which is implemented in software." 18:38:14 Doesn't "virtual machine" include the idea of sandboxing? <--- my answer would be yes 18:38:25 <{^Raven^}> malaprop: At the lowest level a VM is a bytecode interpreter. A brainfuck interpreter interprets brainfuck bytecode. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 18:39:22 i don't see how a brainfuck interpreter fails to be a machine implemented in software 18:39:38 I won't agree to disagree. You're using a term (VM) in place of the proper one (interpreter). 18:39:51 well on some level everything's just a virtual turing machine 18:39:53 graue: It doesn't include virtual disks, screens, anything. 18:40:33 machines don't need to have those things to be machines 18:40:42 I'm starting to think that "it's turing complete" is the computer science equivalent of solipsism. 18:41:33 And if we're going to go into boring useless theoretical concerns, nothing is a turing machine because they're finite. 18:42:01 the things we have, that is. 18:46:51 i'll reconnect 18:46:56 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 18:47:16 -!- tokigun has joined. 18:47:16 -!- graue has left (?). 18:47:32 -!- tokigun has quit (Client Quit). 18:47:49 -!- tokigun has joined. 18:47:58 back. 18:49:37 <{^Raven^}> hi tokigun 18:49:56 hello ;) 19:17:46 -!- harkeyahh has quit (Client Quit). 19:34:14 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:34:28 hello 19:36:22 <{^Raven^}> hey 19:36:25 hello 19:36:59 hi 19:42:14 -!- smott_ has changed nick to smott. 20:05:10 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 20:05:29 sup ChanServ 20:08:37 -!- harkeyahh has quit (Client Quit). 20:13:45 brainfuck has a virtual teletype 20:13:53 hm? 20:14:02 what's that? 20:14:05 re malaprop's assertion 20:14:30 < malaprop> graue: It doesn't include virtual disks, screens, anything. 20:14:43 ok 20:14:59 malaprop is a sad sad man 20:15:12 if he thinks a language should provide access to a file system 20:15:24 heh yeah :) 20:20:41 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 20:33:01 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 20:37:13 I didn't say a language should, was pointing out that this one didn't. 20:37:24 :) 20:37:53 It starts simple: first programmers want access to files. Then before you know it they'll want OpenGL. 20:38:05 hehe 20:38:22 where's BFSDL? 20:39:52 What's BFSDL? 20:40:06 I'm familiar with Python's BDFL... 20:40:46 nothing :) it was a joke, SDL libraries for brainfuck :) 20:40:58 ah, heh 20:42:06 Or bfPVM. 20:47:05 Keymaker: SDL for Brainfuck? sounds good :) 20:48:26 You could see if you can port SWIG. 20:48:55 <{^Raven^}> There is EsoAPI and Easel in development as part of he PESOIX specification for esolangs. 20:49:47 <{^Raven^}> EsoAPI allows low level disk access (when running as the main OS) and Easel allows file IO and more 20:54:24 -!- jix has left (?). 20:54:28 -!- jix has joined. 20:59:43 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:03:50 yeah. and to note: i am not going to do anything :) 21:07:03 hmm. someone search "simpsons" with google.. what add it gives you? 21:09:13 A whole lot of pages about the TV show. 21:09:34 i mean advertise 21:09:52 Got me, blocked. 21:10:00 <{^Raven^}> ebay and a warez site 21:11:03 ok. then the ads aren't same for us 21:12:54 "SEX XXX PORN LIVE SHOWS" was the ad I got. 21:13:46 well me too.. :} 21:40:26 hehe 21:40:34 these simpsons quotes are so funny :D 21:43:29 "My Homer is not a communist! He may be a pig, a liar, a communist but he is not a porn star!" -- grandpa 21:48:23 "I have been shot eight times this year, and as a result, I almost missed work." -- apu 21:51:08 "The Statue of Liberty? Where are we?!" -- milhouse 21:56:30 "McBain to base! Under attack by Commie-Nazis!" 22:01:27 anyways, i'm off to watch some simpsons. then probably go night photographing. so, see you tomorrow :) 22:01:37 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:15:48 -!- tokigun has changed nick to tokigun^away. 22:28:42 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 23:07:56 -!- GregorR has joined.