00:00:23 <lament> this means my interpreter is broken
00:06:09 <lament> hm, that's right, i see the bug now
00:08:35 <lament> interesting, my interpreter is completely broken
00:12:14 <lament> the interpreter was completely broken, yet the brokenness didn't affect the funcitonality of the smallfuck stuff
00:12:26 <lament> i.e. it still works :)
00:13:43 <kipple> that's an interesting definition of "completely broken"
00:14:56 <lament> it was broken for all cases when a swap instruction referenced itself
00:15:03 <lament> which apparently the smallfuck stuff never does
00:16:56 <lament> and i guess other than smallfuck stuff, there aren't very many smetana programs :(
00:19:09 <lament> i think repeatingly running a smetana program might lead to interesting results
00:22:11 <lament> simplest case, an on-off switch:
00:22:20 <lament> Step 1. Swap step 3 with step 4.
00:22:55 <lament> (swap step 3 with step 4 before reading)
00:39:31 * lament performs an act of abominable herecy: adds a print instruction to SMETANA!
00:40:26 <lament> Step 1. Print "Hello world!".
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01:22:35 <lament> looks like 99 bottles of beer would take more code than there's text in it :(
01:22:42 <lament> i.e. the cheapest version is to just use print statements
01:34:29 <kipple> well, it wouldn't be the first, I think
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02:11:59 <lament> Step 1. Swap step 2 with step 4.
02:12:02 <lament> Step 2. Swap step 5 with step 6.
02:12:03 <lament> Step 4. Swap step 5 with step 7.
02:16:26 <lament> could be shortened by a step, of course.
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05:38:04 <GregorR> I improved my libc scrabble game :)
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10:29:01 <pgimeno> lament: lol @ http://z3.ca/~lament/pictures/flow.gif - Hofstadter would probably enjoy it very much
10:29:58 <pgimeno> re Urban Mller's old homepage: http://web.archive.org/web/20040903174220/http://ftp.wustl.edu/~umueller/
10:30:31 <pgimeno> re SMETANA print instruction: now the next challenge is 99bob :)
10:33:10 <pgimeno> I think that Mller is now working for a company offering a search engine
10:34:31 <pgimeno> BTW, according to his homepage Mller spends (spent?) "too much time on IRC" (ircnet)
10:39:25 <pgimeno> he's probably one of these: http://tel.search.ch/result.de.html?all=urban+mueller
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14:08:51 <{^Raven^}> pgimeno: Urban is number 14 on that list
14:12:02 <GregorR> So we're stalking him now?
14:12:32 <{^Raven^}> no, just using publicly available information put online bu Urban himself
15:11:40 <kipple> I'm sure he put his phone number online so that people could call him and ask things like "so, dude, what should a cell contain after reading EOF?" ;)
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15:39:12 <{^Raven^}> kipple: questions like that are answered by reading the original/using the original compiler
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15:55:36 <Keymaker> hm. mller doesn't mention brainfuck on his site.. how that can be possible?!
15:56:15 <Keymaker> he has interesting hobbies, though
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16:05:58 <kipple> Keymaker: I don't think he really cares much about it
16:09:30 <kipple> Raven: I don't have an Amiga, so I can't use it, and I don't read assembler
16:10:06 <kipple> the interpreter says -1 though, and that's what I'm sticking with, but I'm not 100% sure the compiler does the same
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16:46:36 <GregorR> Maybe - juuuuust MAYBE (read: certainly) - Urban just doesn't want to go into a job interview and have the interviewer say "Oh ... yeah ... you're the guy who wrote Brainfuck ..."
16:46:51 <GregorR> I mean, esoteric programming is fun and all, but we should respect his right to live it down.
16:47:30 <kipple> anyway, I'm categorizing NULL as a Non-textual language. any objections?
16:50:09 <kipple> so now Piet doesn't need to feel so alone anymore :)
17:01:48 <tokigun> can I add my own Hello, world program in Whirl page?
17:16:41 <Keymaker> and it's annoyingly 25 celsius hot here
17:17:52 <jix> but 17-26 is ok for me
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17:18:55 <Keymaker> too bad the previous winters have been so warm
17:19:18 <jix> a few weeks ago we had 35°
17:19:40 <jix> thats really annoying
17:20:02 <jix> Bremen, Germany
17:20:14 <Keymaker> i didn't know there's so warm in germany
17:20:22 <jix> it isn't always so warm
17:20:33 <Keymaker> but still really warm, that day
17:20:50 <jix> it was just for 2 days.. the weeks before and the weeks after that days were 9-15°C
17:21:30 <jix> but last week i was in france
17:21:43 <jix> it was hot....
17:21:47 <jix> too hot for me
17:22:04 <Keymaker> did you see that eiffel tower?
17:22:32 <jix> no i wasn't in Paris
17:23:08 <jix> i was at the Cote d'Azur (near Monaco or was it already Monaco?)
17:27:29 <Keymaker> should i add Unnecessary to esowiki? :)
17:30:16 <jix> does HQ9+ ignore any non HQ9+ characters ?
17:30:49 <jix> because if it does i have a Q less quine: Hello, world!
17:33:40 <jix> it doesn't... print_string "Unknown command: "; print_char c;
17:34:41 <Keymaker> otherwise it would've been neat new quine for that language
17:35:35 <Keymaker> or well, it isn't officially said anywhere.. i think
17:35:44 <Keymaker> that's just unofficial interpreter
17:35:55 <jix> no its the reference implementation
17:36:39 <Keymaker> yes, one the site, but can't find anywhere the fact
17:36:56 <Keymaker> "Those that I've managed to find are listed below."
17:37:49 <Keymaker> that doesn't clearly mean it's official. the author should've made more clear whether the language reports other characters as error or ignores them
17:38:17 <Keymaker> anyways, you could e-mail the author :)
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19:19:42 * GregorR ponders what {^Raven^} is pondering
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19:47:17 <jix> and again the SEX instruction (COSMAC 1802 cpu)
19:54:04 <GregorR> I'm under the distinct impression that Berlios registration is borked :(*
19:56:07 <pgimeno> oh, my Choon submission was accepted
19:56:32 <jix> i'm going to write 99 bob for the ELF II computer
19:56:36 <GregorR> Hmm, never mind ... apparently fourth time's a charm XD
19:56:42 <jix> but first i need an assembler for that cpu
20:04:32 * {^Raven^} hates writing GUI apps for Windows but is forced to today
20:09:59 <GregorR> Just makes the whole portability thing muuuuch easier.
20:10:10 <GregorR> And it's small enough to reasonably compile statically into the binary.
20:14:04 <{^Raven^}> The entire program is 41 lines of code, but need to add a few hundred extra for the IF. Grrr...
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20:44:34 <{^Raven^}> I'll just make it a CLI tool for DOS and let the user deal with it
21:49:57 <pgimeno> c:\app\addcust.exe /name="John Doe" /address="666th street, Moon" /phone="(+12)3456789"
21:50:20 <pgimeno> Customer "John Doe" added. Use brwscust.exe to list data.
21:52:19 <pgimeno> (forgot the C:\> prompt, sorry)
21:55:36 <tokigun> I'm designing 99 Bottles of Beer in Whirl.... yeah so difficult.
22:01:32 <pgimeno> whirl is a PITA to code in (though you can compress the sources pretty well, like 8:1 at worst)
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22:07:09 <pgimeno> speaking of the moon: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/04jan/uf006348.gif
22:12:44 <{^Raven^}> pgimeno: I used to be majorly "into" writing GUI software, these day I write portable, multi-platform CLI stuff wherever possible
22:26:04 <tokigun> http://leporidae.tokigun.net/.service/99bob.txt psuedo code of 99 bob...
22:26:43 <tokigun> though i should explain this meta-language. :p
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22:35:13 <pgimeno> that vaguely reminds me of my planning of the "cat" program in Malbolge
22:35:18 <Keymaker> tokigun: yeah, that's gonna be a good challenge. good luck.
22:35:47 <tokigun> Keymaker: hello. / thanks :)
22:37:11 <Keymaker> (never tried, but at least that i got from the language specification..)
22:37:22 <Keymaker> (or well, there doesn't read that, but i thought it is hard)
22:37:28 <tokigun> yes... i have many issues and i'm finding solutions of them.
22:37:41 <pgimeno> Keymaker: I downloaded your sample Unnecessary source and works perfectly. Do you have more samples I can download to get a feeling of how it works?
22:38:06 <tokigun> some of them have been solved (perhaps) but sometimes another problem has been appeared :(
22:38:37 <tokigun> Keymaker: How about Unnecessary interpreter for web?
22:40:37 <Keymaker> by the way, anyone seen hitchcock's the birds?
22:40:43 <Keymaker> i just saw it before came here
22:40:54 <Keymaker> now i'm afraid of birds, though
22:41:53 <pgimeno> nice, http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/hello.unn also compiles and runs, though it doesn't print "Hello, world". I'll activate debugging to see what's wrong.
22:42:24 <tokigun> 6:43 am KST... i get to sleep ;)
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22:58:28 <pgimeno> most of europe is CET = GMT+1/2 (currently 2 because of DST)
22:58:46 <pgimeno> (with a relaxed concept of "most")
23:04:06 <pgimeno> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html
23:04:38 <{^Raven^}> does anyone know of some good references for cross-compiling brainfuck into something more efficient?
23:04:58 <calamari> Raven: there's that bf cpu where it can run native ;)
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23:08:30 <GregorR> There are a bunch of BF compilers that compile BF into C.
23:09:03 <GregorR> And a few of those combine things like >>> into one += 3
23:09:24 <Keymaker> and mostly they are written in c
23:10:05 <Keymaker> btw, here's unnecessary interpreter for web use:
23:10:05 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/unnecessary.php?program=hello.unn&debug=on
23:10:28 <{^Raven^}> i've got a brainfuck optimisation engine that I'm working on that spits out code in whatever language you fancy
23:10:45 <Keymaker> well, what if i fancy brainfuck? :)
23:11:48 <{^Raven^}> you'd have to write a set of rules to decompile the internal code to whichever language
23:13:05 <{^Raven^}> i'd like to get together some more information than the optimisations that I already have
23:13:17 <{^Raven^}> i;'m sure there's stuff i've not thought about
23:22:18 <{^Raven^}> for an extreme case it reduces my Lost Kingdom from 2.1 million raw brainfuck instructions down to 147,000 instructions
23:23:50 <{^Raven^}> and that could be improved further
23:24:13 <fizzie> My befunge compiler does some optimizations too, so I guess it could be used for compiling brainf*ck (by translating first to befunge). I should just clean it up and write a code-generating backend, currently it can only spit out simple C code.
23:27:00 <fizzie> I only have some generated output in the interweb ( http://gehennom.org/~fis/utm.html => http://gehennom.org/~fis/out.c.txt ), not the compiler sources. Oh, and http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bf.txt -> http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bef.txt for the "oh gods that's horrible" brainf*ck->befunge translation.
23:27:17 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what re.bf did. Probably something related to regular expressions.
23:30:43 <{^Raven^}> fizzie: is there the C output of re.bef
23:32:15 <fizzie> Not really, since g/p don't work in the C-code-creation-backend. That could be easily fixed, though, since the 'p's in that translated-brainf*ck code don't do any self-modification. I think there were some known bugs in the compiler still, though.
23:33:53 <fizzie> Oh well. This part of Europe is EET (GMT+3 at the moment, with the DST) so it's 01:34am, and a ~early morning tomorrow, so -> sleeps now. Night.
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23:44:18 <Keymaker> (thanks heaven i'm on summer vacation (and have no summer job either ;)))
23:52:42 <Keymaker> well, i tried, but nobody hired me!
23:53:10 <Keymaker> well, doesn't matter. i get to stay awake late
23:53:58 <calamari> lots of free time to come up with a new language
23:54:24 <Keymaker> too bad i'm reading to final exams
23:54:28 <Keymaker> or dunno what those are called
23:54:38 <Keymaker> fizzie could probably translate but he went away
23:55:26 <calamari> I'm curious what the sentence looks like natively
23:57:14 <calamari> the one you couldn't translate
23:57:48 <Keymaker> ah. i'm talking about the big exams you need to get trough to get out from high school, or whatever would be the translation
23:57:58 <Keymaker> school systems are annoyingly so different in different places
23:58:27 <Keymaker> anyways, i could probably get through it without reading, but i'm hoping/going to get good grades
23:58:50 <calamari> are high school exams common? I didn't have to take an exam to graduate.. but I know they started testing a few years ago
23:59:15 <Keymaker> well, here there has been these exams/'writings' for years
23:59:27 <Keymaker> probably 50 years or more, at least
23:59:53 <calamari> oh, just wondering if that was the word you meant